How to Become a Successful PI Attorney

00:03 Speaker 1 Welcome to the Effective Lawyer, a podcast for ambitious attorneys who want to improve their practice. My name is Jack Zinda and I'll be your host. In 2019, there were 38,913 new law students, which means in three years there's going to be a lot of new litigators. So today we're going to talk about tactics, tips and ideas for attorneys that are new to either the practice of plaintiff's law or litigation. Maybe you're fresh out of law school, switching practice areas or just want to get some advice. So hopefully today will help. Before we jump into the topic directly, I want to introduce the team that we have here today. So first person we have is Joe Caputo, you say? Hi, Joe. 00:53 Speaker 2 Sure. My name's Joe Caputo. I am one of the partners at Zynda Law Group and I handle some of the serious and catastrophic cases at the firm. 01:06 Speaker 1 Next up we have Chrissy Hagan. Hey, Chrissy, where are you calling from today? 01:10 Speaker 3 I'm actually in Michigan today and I am one of the attorneys at the firm as well. I handle a variety of personal injury cases, including auto trucking, dog bite and wrongful death cases. 01:25 Speaker 1 And then last but not least, we have Neil Solomon. Neil? 01:29 Speaker 4 Hey, Jack. I'm Neil Solomon. I'm one of the senior attorneys at Zynda Law Group and I handle severe and catastrophic personal injury cases as well. 01:39 Speaker 1 Great. Well, one of the first things that I was thinking of when I was thinking of this topic today was at what point in my career did I start feeling comfortable in my own skin? I know as a new litigator, it can be a real pressure packed career. You have to know the law, you have to be able to perform. So at what point did you guys feel comfortable as a litigator? Neil, what about you? 02:07 Speaker 4 Yeah, so I think the first couple of years, I think you're really just getting your feet wet and you don't really know what's up from down. When you get out of law school, you're kind of learning everything for the first time is trying to gain as much experience as you can. And then I would say probably by year three or four, you know, enough to be a little dangerous to think you know something. And then I think for me, probably around year five, I really hit my groove and felt like I had seen enough things enough times to at least feel comfortable with whatever I was facing. 02:38 Speaker 1 Joe, what about you? 02:40 Speaker 2 I think it depends, you know, I don't know that there was an amount of time that it took me to feel comfortable. I think I needed to do everything two or three times, and then the fourth time I was really comfortable with what I was doing. I didn't have questions or concerns, and I think that's when I hit my groove. 03:04 Speaker 1 Chrissy, do you have a point where you felt like you were feeling more comfortable as a litigator? 03:09 Speaker 3 I also think it depends a lot on the type of experience and the type of stuff that you're working on, not so much the amount of years, because I've had some really good opportunities lately to do things like take expert depositions, actually be a first chair during a jury trial. And so I think the more types of experiences like that I've gotten under my belt, the better I've felt and the more in the group I felt. 03:35 Speaker 1 Have you guys ever gotten to the point where the nerves completely go away? Because I know as a young attorney, I used to worry about, why was I nervous? Have you guys gotten to the point where that's just gone, and you don't feel any nerves when you go to court or go to trial or take a deposition? 03:49 Speaker 2 I think that the minute that we stop feeling the nerves and the pressure of some of that stuff, we've got to get into a different business. I think that part of why I prepare so much and why I think we do such a good job is because we know there's a lot on the line and there is a little bit of the unknown to be nervous about. And I think that those are probably good nerves to have, as opposed to bad nerves that get in the way of us doing a good job for the clients. What do you think, Neal? 04:25 Speaker 4 I would agree to an extent, but I do think that over time, it definitely does get easier. So whether it be a deposition or in hearings or trial, with each time that you do it, I think the nerves do ease a bit. And then I think especially one of the things I found very reassuring as a young attorney is when I had to go to court and going to a hearing, I may not have had that many before, ones like these. And I would sit and watch, and sometimes you'd see some great lawyering, and other times you would see some attorneys that were completely unprepared. They're getting dressed down by the judge, and you're going, I could have done none of the preparation I did, and I think I would have done better than what I just saw. 05:07 Speaker 4 And so I think it can actually be. It's good just to go get the reps and go through that. But I definitely think that the nerve starts to diminish a little bit with each passing time and year and rep that you get in doing something. 05:21 Speaker 1 I was taking hearings and doing depositions really since day one. And I remember over preparing for those. And once you get past the idea of how to take a deposition, kind of the formality of it, you feel comfortable with the court reporter, it becomes more like a sport and that helps take some of the nerves away. You're not wondering, am I going to forget a rule, am I going to forget a local rule? And I feel like that helps a lot. And I remember feeling in about year three, much more comfortable and in my sweet spot. But I agree 100% with Joe that a lot of that pressure to do a great job for the client is why we prepare so much. And I also think it's important that you're constantly pushing yourself outside of your comfort zone. Right. 06:08 Speaker 1 If you're just working on the same type of case, same complexity, you may not feel nervous because maybe you're not pushing yourself enough. 06:15 Speaker 2 No, I agree with you and I know that we the Zynda law group basketball team hasn't gotten together in a few months, but even in layup lines playing basketball at a rec league in my mid-30s, I still have a little bit of nerves in the warm up lines. Right. But once tip off happens, those nerves go away and you just do what you've practiced on doing. 06:44 Speaker 1 Yeah, 100% agree. I've gotten more nervous about basketball over the years because I'm getting worse every season. 06:51 Speaker 2 So am I. 06:52 Speaker 4 It's not pretty. 06:54 Speaker 1 Well, what advice would you give your younger self if you could go back in time, let's say rewind the clock several years in your first year practice, if you could sit down and tell yourself some real specific advice, what would you tell yourself? Chrissy, what sort of advice would you give a younger Chrissy Hagan about being a litigator? 07:17 Speaker 3 I would say not to be so hard on yourself and that it's important to understand that you don't have to know everything right away. I remember when I was first starting out, I read the book by Rick Friedman called Becoming a Trial Lawyer. In it, the most memorable part was that he says that he wasn't born to do this type of work and that when he first started he got super nervous in a courtroom. And I just remember that made me feel so much better because I was like, if he wasn't a natural at this, then anyone can do it well. 07:50 Speaker 1 And I know Neil, you wouldn't give yourself any advice because you were an all star day one. But let's pretend you weren't. Let's pretend it was a non all star. Neil, what advice would you give that person? Sure. 07:59 Speaker 4 In that alternate universe, Jack? I think the one thing I would say is one is try to figure out what you're passionate about and what you really want to do in your legal career. I started off on the defense side and got a lot of great experience that. Not saying I'd want to trade that away, but I think looking back, I probably could have recognized even earlier that I wanted to be on the plaintiff side and helping people, and I could have even made the switch even earlier on. And then the second part of that I think goes together with it is telling a younger attorney to find that passion and go and take whatever cle is getting involved to kind of master your craft. 08:40 Speaker 4 I think a lot of people get out of law school and they say, great, I'm done learning or taking classes and just figure they'll learn on the fly on the job. And I think in more recent years even I've taken a much more aggressive approach on trying to kind of master my craft or as you put it, sharpen your tools. And I think that finding whatever you want to do and being really aggressive about that early in your career can really push you along a lot faster. 09:05 Speaker 1 Yeah, I'm always amazed by how many people chase the money. And that's some advice I try to give people, whether it's before they go to law school or when they get out. Figure out what you love and the money will follow. But so many attorneys I see get lured away to a job, they don't even really know what they're going to be doing practice area wise. But it just pays a lot of money, which I get because a lot of us come out of law school with a bunch of student debt. But really, if you go down that path for five, six, seven, eight, nine years, you're kind of married to that area of the law and it's tough to break away. So I think that's right on. Find what you're passionate about first and then the money will follow. Joe, what about you? 09:46 Speaker 2 You know, I, in law school, learned to do everything the wrong way. I was really involved in mock trial. And in mock trial, were taught to just be balls to the wall, aggressive to the point of annoyance with everything. And I think when I started practice, I used that aggression and I never stopped. And it was bad aggression and it wasn't my style. And so I think the advice that I would give myself is be yourself, find out what your style is and mold what you're learning to your style. I couldn't give Don Keenan's closing or don't Jack Zinda's opening. 10:40 Speaker 2 I need to take all of the tools that I'm sharpening and that I'm using, and I need them to mold to a style that fits me so that I can be genuine both with my clients, with the jury, with opposing counsel, with judges as well. 10:59 Speaker 1 I think that is great advice. And one thing I would add that I wish I had done more of is gotten more mentorship. I was at a firm that did not practice plaintiffs personal injury, so I didn't have a lot of internal mentors. I had some great attorneys that I learned from, but not this specific area of the law. And I did not do enough early on to reach out to people to help show me the way. And I think I could have saved a lot of time through trial and error if I had done that a little bit earlier on. So that'd be the big advice I'd give myself. 11:33 Speaker 1 Well, when you're dealing with young attorneys, and our firm has grown a lot over the years, so we work with a lot of attorneys out of law school or on the other side of the cases, what are some of the worst mistakes you see young attorneys make when they first start litigating? Christy, what about you? What are some of the mistakes you've seen young or new attorneys make that kind of make you cringe? You say, I cannot believe they're doing that. 11:58 Speaker 3 I think one of the biggest is kind of what Joe touched on about not being your true self and being disingenuine, because that comes across immediately to a jury and to a judge. If you're trying to be the tough guy or you're trying to be too scripted and following something that maybe worked for another attorney, but it's very clear that style is not working for you. 12:20 Speaker 4 Yeah, I think that's definitely something that's there. I think that something someone had touched on, but kind of that over aggressiveness early on, that some schools will teach that that's the only way. And I think that our practice is still based in relationships. And so whether it be opposing counsel or the judge's staff or an adjuster, if you're doing the work like we do, I think, you know, building those relationships can generally work out in your favor and your client's favor over going over the top and being aggressive towards them. The other thing that came to mind for me was somewhat of a lack of curiosity from new attorneys. 12:59 Speaker 4 And so making sure that if you see a new word or topic for us in the personal injury field, I think knowing the medicine and finding new attorneys who will just copy and paste or on the other side, you can really tell they don't really understand the science or what the injury was. And I think taking the time to study it and learn it and know your knowledge area and having that ability to be willing to learn is extremely helpful early on. 13:28 Speaker 2 I think the best way that people can prevent. If you're a young litigator and you're trying to prevent yourself from making a big mistake, the best advice that I can give a young litigator is to learn the rules and learn the law. That is your safety net and that's going to allow you to not make some of the catastrophic mistakes that a lot of young attorneys make. I know Burgess Williams from our office. He's one of the senior attorneys at Zinda Law Group. He always tells this story from a former colleague of his who was a seasoned, experienced litigator defending a deposition. And I think the deponent was asked the question by a first or a second year associate that was not going to go well if answered. 14:23 Speaker 2 And so the seasoned litigator objects and the attorney's like, well, what's the basis of the objection? And the seasoned litigator says the emergency objection, which there's no emergency objection, and the young litigator just moves on to the next question and assumes that there must be this emergency objection that they haven't heard about. But this seasoned litigator knows what he's doing, he's been around the block and so they just move on. And so I think you can prevent yourself from getting caught in something like that by knowing the rules, studying the law and having that be that safety net. 15:10 Speaker 1 Yeah, I completely agree. You got to do your homework. That's number one. I see a lot of attorneys and I find young attorneys either go one of two routes they'll over prepare, which is better than under preparing. And you've got to start with the law. And that truly is the way to also call out more senior attorneys that are going to try to bully you in a deposition or a hearing or mediation. And I agree with what you guys said. Acting too aggressively. I call it the yappy dog syndrome. Someone is being so aggressive, it comes off as weakness because a more seasoned attorney is going to look at that and say, whoa, this aggressiveness is because you're scared. 15:56 Speaker 3 Zynda Law Group is a plaintiff's personal injury law firm made up of over 30 lawyers that handle catastrophic personal injury and wrongful death cases throughout the United States. We regularly counsel and joint venture with firms across the country. Over the last several years we have paid millions of dollars in joint venture counsel fees to the law firms we work with. If you are a law firm or attorney and have a catastrophic personal injury or wrongful death case you would like to joint venture or work with Zynda Law Group on, please reach out to us at 800-863-5312 or email us@infodferm.com and we can set up a time to discuss your case. 16:37 Speaker 1 One of the other questions that I've been thinking about a lot as we've grown is in developing young attorneys, what do you all think is the law firm's responsibility versus the attorney's responsibility to advancing their career as far as making them a better litigator? And I think that's also probably some good information for us to talk about for people that have started their own firms and maybe have an attorney at their first associate coming on. What should they provide versus what should the person do? Joe, I think you and I have worked together the longest. So what are your thoughts on that? 17:10 Speaker 2 I think it's a two way street. I think that it's the firm's responsibility to put the lawyer in a position to be successful. And then I think it's the lawyer's job to take advantage of those opportunities. I know at our firm we encourage people to go to cles, whether those are virtual cles, whether we're going to Montana to go through a commercial motor vehicle program or an 18 wheel truck program, or whether it's the ATAA conference in Nashville. We're constantly trying to allow our attorneys to grow to gain the knowledge that they need. And that's why you created that certification program that we have in our office that tries to get people to witness expert depots a couple of times, try it out themselves with supervision a few times, and then they're off to the races taking expert depots in their own cases. 18:21 Speaker 2 And so I think it's the firm and the lawyers working together to allow those attorneys to not have that artificial ceiling. But it's on the lawyers to want to get better and to take advantage of those opportunities when they come. 18:38 Speaker 1 Neil, what do you think? 18:41 Speaker 4 Yeah, I think in a best practice there's so many different sizes of firms. Right. And so if you're a solo who's now adding a second new lawyer. I think that's obviously going to be different than how it'll be for someone else. And so I think that can be through just mentorship within your own firm. But I do think that's extremely important. And I think that's how a firm is going to one, get better results and a much better buy in from your new attorneys if you're providing that. And then, as Joe said, it always goes back to. It's the personal responsibility of that younger or newer attorney to. 19:18 Speaker 4 To buy in and put in the work and not only do what's provided to them by the firm, but also on their own doing outside reading or studying that they can do to try to get better at their craft and. 19:32 Speaker 2 Just to jump in. I know a young Jack Zinda. When he first started practicing personal injury law, the partner that he was working for initially didn't practice PI law and told him that his belief on a good case was if you could get the client all their bills paid in 1000 bucks, Jack really didn't have anywhere to go. He said, that doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Let's get involved in my local trial lawyers association. Let's get involved in the Texas Trial Lawyers Association. Let's read some books. Let's go to cle's. Now you're putting on the cles, and now you're encouraging dozens of our attorneys to go do the same things that you were doing to try to make sure that they're branching out and continue to strive to learn more and do better for the clients that we have. 20:30 Speaker 1 It was a long time ago. The 80s was a long way off. But no, I 100% agree. I do think that a firm has a responsibility to make sure the attorney has the resources they need to be successful. And I also think that you have a responsibility to offer mentorship. But I think the attorney needs to take that initiative, do the legwork, reach out, ask questions, because no one's going to do it for you. And I think that's one of the things that's difficult for people to grasp coming out of law school is that it's not like someone's going to create a syllabus for you. You know, although we've tried to do that, you're expected to go out there and how far you advance as a lawyer is really on you. Do you have the drive to make yourself better? 21:17 Speaker 1 And that's where that passion you were talking about earlier, Neil, comes in. Because if you hate the subject matter, and it's painful to research it. It's not going to be fun. And so I think the attorney has it. The young attorney has the responsibility to take responsibility for speaking up if they don't know something or don't feel comfortable and push themselves outside of their comfort zone. I think we do a great job of trying to pull attorneys in to have them take depositions, go to hearings early in their career. But at a lot of firms, no one's going to push you to do that. You got to push yourself out there, ask for those opportunities, and they're not just going to land on your plate. Chrissy, what do you think? 22:01 Speaker 3 I agree. I think it's probably 50, and especially when you're at a firm like Zynda, where they make it so easy to get access to a variety of cles through putting them all together in one spot, converting them to audio recordings. I just listen to cles in my car to and from work every single day. So I don't really have an excuse not to be up on the law and not to be constantly learning that new information when it's so easy to access. And the firm is so great about being willing to send you to different conventions and stuff like that. So you're constantly continuing to grow as an attorney. 22:41 Speaker 1 And I'll say this, I've come a long ways from a firm perspective on paying for cles and travel for those things. I used to be a little less open to that because they're very expensive. Several thousand dollars for the admission, then travel and hotel. But over time, I've seen what a return on investment that is. You send an attorney to a trucking cle for a day, they come back with so much more information, and you're just amazed by how much of a better attorney they are. And I also say from a young attorney standpoint, I think listening to cles when you're just on the go, traveling, you'll absorb a lot more information than you would think you would. 23:26 Speaker 2 I think it's a huge advantage to have a firm of colleagues, right. Because there's that competitive nature that a lot of us have at making sure that someone doesn't surpass us with the knowledge that they have. I know one of our attorneys redid his house and moved an hour away from the office because his commute to the office had gotten to be so long. He was listening to cles in the car on the way to and from work. 24:02 Speaker 1 And to be honest, I was pissed. 24:03 Speaker 2 Off because I needed to figure out a way that I was going to make some time that I didn't have to start listening to those same cles because all of a sudden he had some free time to get some knowledge. And I needed to make sure that I was doing the same thing. 24:21 Speaker 1 Sharpening the ax and making sure you're staying up to speed on those things is really important. Back to the top were just talking about before. I think one mistake I see law firms make, and especially senior partners, is they don't want to invest in the growth of their attorneys. And I see that coming out of two misguided principles. One is you don't want to make the attorney so good that they leave your organization. And I think that's misguided. You want to train people so they become great, so they make your team better, and if they leave, so be it. But I think you're going to get more out of them and you have a higher likelihood of keeping them within the fold. And then the second kind of misguided principle is they're worried about them surpassing their own knowledge on a subject matter. 25:08 Speaker 1 But I look at that as a plus. If I can have a member of the team that maybe knows more about medical malpractice and another attorney that maybe knows more about trucking cases, that's going to make us better as a whole, we shouldn't look at it as something to be intimidated about. And I think that's one of the cool things about working at a firm is you're putting your heads together and collaborating on topics and it makes us all 10 times better than if were just on an island by ourselves. But I see a lot of law firms don't invest in their attorneys and then they wonder why they haven't gotten better in three years. But jumping over to stress, because I think that is something that comes with being a litigator. It is a stressful job at times. 25:50 Speaker 1 What advice would you guys give young attorneys with how to manage the stress of being a new attorney and also the stress of being in a fast paced litigation practice? Neil, what do you think? 26:04 Speaker 4 I think the big thing there is, number one, is trying to stay as organized as you can. And so all of the deadlines that are outstanding can seem daunting. But if you have good organization system set up, then you feel pretty confident that you're not missing any of those. And so when you break them down to a daily or weekly basis, I think that can help a lot. I think the other part is that I'm definitely a big proponent of you have to work hard, but then in your outside life, you have to be play hard, right? So whether it be working out or spending time with friends or family, you have to fill up that bucket when you're outside of the office. Otherwise it will not work out at the office. 26:48 Speaker 4 I think that finding that balance between the two is just extremely important. No matter what phase of life you're in, you can still take your work seriously, yet find the time to spend with family and friends. 27:00 Speaker 2 I agree with everything that you said, Neil. You know, one way that I used to have a lot more stress than I used to and it was self inflicted, is I took everything personally. Whether it was an argument with opposing counsel at the deposition or back and forth with an insurance adjuster, it was all personal. And when I stopped making it personal and I said, everybody has a job to do. And when the deposition's over and after we're done screaming and yelling at each other, let's go out for beers and dinner with opposing counsel, I think that takes away some unneeded stress because when you make things personal, you're adding unnecessary stress to a very stressful profession. And it's a recipe for disaster. 27:58 Speaker 3 I think it's important to be conscious of when you're most productive during the day. So for me, it's the morning and we all have a ton of things we need to do during the day, and the work's always going to be there. But if you can maybe focus a little bit more on doing the tasks that require the most attention when you're most productive, it can really help alleviate some of that stress. 28:21 Speaker 4 I also think something that you touched on earlier, Christy, was giving yourself a break. And I think that can be a big part as well for how stressed you can get out as a younger attorney especially. But really at any point, right. And so mistakes will be made. You could have made a better argument. You could have asked the right question at that deposition. But end of day, knowing that you put a good, best effort in and cutting yourself that slack at the end of it, I think can help manage the stress quite a bit. 28:50 Speaker 1 Yeah, I completely agree. And a few practical things that I think you can do either as a litigator or an owner of a firm is have clear boundaries for what part of your life you're in. So I like to have a startup routine at work that signals to my brain it's time to start working. Then an end of day routine at work that says work is ending. And then I try to really disconnect from For a good amount of time while I'm at home with the kids and family and focused on those things. I think too often we get glued to our phones, checking email while playing with the kids or having dinner. And what you don't realize is that stress adds up and you're constantly on and you haven't actually separated yourself from your work. And I think that's really critical. 29:40 Speaker 1 And the other thing is I think you get a diminishing return on the amount of time you put in at the office. I don't believe it's really feasible to put in a 70 hour workweek. You can try, but I don't know how effective that's actually going to be if you're working 70 hours in a week, especially if that's in a five or six day period. I bet you would be more effective working really intensely for 50 hours than working at half speed or exhausted at 70. So I think that's a mistake. I see young attorneys make a lot. They'll be at the office late, but how much are they actually getting done and then staying organized? I'm amazed by how much that leads to de stress in your life. 30:20 Speaker 1 Having a list of what you need to get done and focusing on the most important tasks of the day, I think that's a serious concern because I think that's where unfortunately people can start getting into chemical dependency issues or alcoholism when they don't deal with stress effectively. So I think all firms should try to have outlets for newer attorneys to teach them how to do with that. And unfortunately, some firms have more senior attorneys that don't handle stress well and it just kind of bleeds down to the younger associates. So I think that's something more firms should focus on. Well, I think we're almost out of time, so before we go though, is there any last piece of advice you'd want to leave either a young litigator or someone who's starting their own law firm, or maybe someone bringing on that first associate. Joe? 31:09 Speaker 2 Yeah, I'd say two things, I think. One, you would be surprised how many people are in your shoes and willing to help you. So don't be scared to reach out and ask for help. There are people that want to provide mentorship and are dying for it. So reach out. And then secondly, remember that although we have way too many law schools in this country, there are only so many lawyers and it's a smaller community than you think. And your reputation follows you throughout this business and it's the most important thing you have. So remember that in your relationships and communications with other attorneys and people that you're dealing with in the profession. And I think you'll be well served. 32:03 Speaker 3 I would say take the time to put in the work and really know your case inside and out. It's just so important to talk to witnesses, take the time to do stuff like that, be really involved and hands on when it comes to things like inspections, you know, talking to neighbors, eyewitnesses, other people who just know your client, because it really helps to build that entire story and makes the case 10. 32:28 Speaker 1 Times better, I would say. 32:30 Speaker 4 I mean, there's a couple things that come to mind, but one is, particularly if you're early in your career and you're doing something new, everyone else doesn't know that. And so it's okay to walk in even though you don't want to come in overconfident, you want to exert confidence once you're in the room. And I think that can help you out as you're doing things. Another one is if you do make a mistake, it's okay to reach out to opposing counsel and ask them and say, hey, I missed this deadline. I'm going to go. If I have to go ask for the court, I'm going to go ask forgiveness. But we've all made mistakes. Would you agree to help me out here? 33:05 Speaker 4 And I would say nine times out of 10, you're probably going to find that they're willing to help you out because everyone has made a mistake in their career and they know they've been in that position before. That's the two bits of advice I would add. 33:19 Speaker 1 Yeah, it sounds like that's based on a real example. Neil. 33:23 Speaker 4 You say you haven't. I've made many mistakes, more than I can count. But we're not all as perfect as you, my friend. 33:30 Speaker 1 Don't worry, I've counted all of the mistakes. They're in a log somewhere. 33:34 Speaker 4 I was going to say there's a. 33:35 Speaker 2 Spreadsheet somewhere on our firm drive. We just have to know what to search to find. 33:42 Speaker 1 The one piece of advice that I would give a new attorney is spend 20 minutes a day honing your craft. I think if you do that for your first two years of practice, you. 33:53 Speaker 4 Will be amazed by how good you. 33:55 Speaker 1 Are and how much you improve. I really think of what we do like a marathon. And if you are running slightly faster than your competitors every year, by the time you're in year three, four and five, it is amazing how far you're ahead. And also it's the counter. If you haven't done that, it becomes that much harder to catch up in year three, four and five. So that would be the last piece of advice that I would give and as we do at the end of every show, a book recommendation. And Chris, you actually stole the recommendation I was going to give, which is Elements of Trial by Rick Freeman. I read that book I don't know how long I think it was written in 2014, so I've been practicing for a while. But it's a great book for a young litigator. 34:40 Speaker 1 It walks through the real basic stuff, questions you're afraid to ask. You can get it on trial guides, and I highly recommend it. Well guys, thank you all so much for being here today and talk to you soon. 34:52 Speaker 2 Thanks, Jeff Thanks. 34:58 Speaker 1 Thank you for taking the time to listen to this episode of the Effective Lawyer. If you enjoyed this podcast, please take a moment to rate it 5 stars and leave us a review. To get notified about new episodes that are upcoming or have been released, go to zdfirm.com/podcast Sign up for our mailing list.