Hiring a High-Performing Team

00:04 Speaker 1 Welcome to the Effective Lawyer, a podcast for ambitious attorneys who want to improve their practice. My name is Jack Zinda, and I'll be your host. All right, so how are you guys doing today? 00:23 Speaker 2 Great. It's been a great day. Interviewed some wonderful people. 00:27 Speaker 1 Awesome. Awesome. Well, why don't you tell the folks a little bit about Yalls background? I know each of you have an interesting road on how you got to our firm and working in the recruiting and HR departments. So, Alison, how'd you get here? 00:43 Speaker 2 So I was a litigator for six years. Practiced a lot out in New York as general commercial litigator. Found that being a lawyer was really not for me. It took me about six years to figure that out. And I did a lot of soul searching and spoke with a lot of people, wanted to use my JD in some way, but I needed something that was a little bit more social, a little bit more interacting with people during the day. And I found that recruiting lawyers was a great mix of all of that. So I started working at a search firm in New York, where we placed lawyers in roles at law firms as well as companies, as in house counsel. 01:22 Speaker 2 And then I'd worked with one firm in particular while I was there, and I found that I really liked being a part of that firm and watching them grow and filling a number of positions there. And that really led me to decide that I wanted to work for one firm, be instrumental in their growth, and really help them expand and feel more like I was part of a team. 01:46 Speaker 1 What do you do for us? 01:47 Speaker 2 So I am the recruiting manager here at Zenda Law Group, and I recruit for all positions at the firm. So that obviously includes attorneys, but paralegals, marketing team, finance, coo. Any position that we have open at the firm, I recruit for that role. 02:07 Speaker 1 Well. And Christy, you also have an interesting background. You were a practicing lawyer as well, right? 02:12 Speaker 3 I was. So prior to coming to Zinda Law Group, I was a labor and employment practice leader for a boutique law firm in Fort Lauderdale, handled labor and employment litigation matters. And I found myself handling a lot of human resources issues for my clients. And for me, I was able to give them a recommendation, but I wasn't able to affect a lot of change or able to make sure they actually did the right thing. And I got really interested in that aspect of my job. And so I thought, hey, what if I could be the one for a company or for a law firm, whoever it is, to make those decisions and help make sure that the human resources department is functioning smoothly and it plays hand in hand with the legal side of it. 02:55 Speaker 3 So I thought, hey, maybe I'll look into HR as a full time career. I also knew I wanted to move to Austin and luckily Zynda Law Group was looking for an HR coordinator who had a law degree. So that's how I got here. 03:06 Speaker 1 And Alison, in recruiting, when you were working for a recruiting agency, what were some of the things that you saw law firms do really well and some of the things you saw them do really poorly? 03:19 Speaker 2 So I'll start with really poorly and then I'll go back to really well. They, I found, didn't vet their candidates that well as far as skill set. They were very good at making small talk and seeing if someone was a good culture fit. Can we all get along? Can we find some position at the firm for them? But I don't think they did a particularly good job of figuring out whether someone really had the skills for that particular position. What I thought they did well is the candidate experience. That's something that I think law firms, particularly the big law firms, do very well. They have entire teams that are dedicated to that. When they do campus interviewing at the law schools, they roll out the red carpet for the law students. 04:05 Speaker 2 They have in depth summer programs where the attorneys, or excuse me at the time, law students not only find out what it's like to work at the firm, but are wined and dined. And when you interview as a lateral attorney, they do something similar. So I found that the candidate experience and the candidates typically walk away with pretty positive feelings about the firm. 04:29 Speaker 1 You know, I think that's really, can be a double edged sword because I think one end you're showing people a great side of your firm, but it may not be realistic for what it's going to be like when you actually get there. And I don't know if you guys experienced this, but I had a lot of friends that went to work at certain firms and it wasn't what they expected. And after two or three years they weren't happy and were looking for their next stage. Did you guys see any of that with either, you know, people you guys went to law school with or people that you recruited for? 04:55 Speaker 2 I saw it personally. I worked at a large law firm in New York and as a summer associate. It's great. You leave every day at 5:30, you go for really nice lunches and then when you get there as an associate, your hours essentially double. And I knew that going into it, but the reality of doing that day in and day out was very different. 05:17 Speaker 1 You know, and one thing that I had to think about when we decided to create a recruiting department is why did recruiting matter to a law firm? And what part of recruiting was important to get great people? Do you have any thoughts on that? 05:31 Speaker 2 Well, I think having a recruiting department is really important because the people are the firm and making sure that you're getting good people all the time really is paramount. The firm that I mentioned that I did a lot of work with when I was at a search firm, they tried sourcing on their own and they billed. So they found the lawyer that spoke to me said, well, I just spent 200 hours of my time that I could have been billing trying to find one immigration attorney where I could have hired you to place those individuals at the firm. And then they did, and were very successful at that. So I think it takes a lot of pressure off the attorneys at the firm to have someone else who's dedicated to that. It really is a full time job. 06:16 Speaker 2 I mean, I remember when I interviewed at the firm and I was thinking, I can't believe the firm needs a full time recruiter. I hope I'm not bored. I have not been bored one day in almost three years at the firm. It's a really active and exciting role. 06:31 Speaker 1 You know, And I remember before you came on, there was so much pressure to hire someone quickly that you start cutting corners in the recruiting process. And what I've noticed in one, having a process outlined, I think is really critical in trying to stick to it. So you learn from prior mistakes. And Christy, you can probably speak to this, but it is very costly if you hire the wrong person. 06:55 Speaker 3 Absolutely. So prior to Alison coming to the firm, not only was I doing hr, I was also doing the recruiting for the firm. And, you know, one of the early lessons that I learned is how important recruiting truly is to a law firm. Because when you do bring on or, you know, find, I don't want to say the wrong person, but maybe it's not the right fit. It doesn't work out. It impacts the firm in so many different ways. It impacts everything that the HR department does. It impacts the legal side. It impacts everything. It impacts the culture and how we do things moving forward. 07:28 Speaker 1 So I think it's really bad for morale too, I think. 07:30 Speaker 3 Absolutely. 07:31 Speaker 1 You know, even if someone was terrible at their job, it's just sad if someone has to leave somewhere that they've gotten to know people. 07:38 Speaker 3 Absolutely. 07:38 Speaker 1 You know, and one thing that I've found that I've tried to be more upfront about when we bring people in is what are the good parts and bad parts about working here so we get the right fit someone doesn't come in and realize this isn't for me. And I think some firms and businesses in general sometimes make a mistake by not putting all of that on the table. Like, what can I really expect my day to day job to be like? And what can I expect the difficulties to be if I'm making a move? You know, one of the things that I think lawyers struggle with is time management when it comes to recruiting. What things have you guys seen that's worked well in order to maximize the attorney's time and allow us to vet as many candidates as possible? 08:22 Speaker 2 I think having myself or Christy or another member of our team do a first round short interview. So we really are doing a lot of the vetting on our end. And because we've now been here for a while, we really do have a sense and we can make that decision in a 10, 15 minute interview as to whether we think someone should come in for a longer interview. So what that really does is allow us to have proper vetting and again to decrease our attorney's time where they're spending a lot of time interviewing candidates. If we schedule someone to come in to meet with one of our attorneys, we've already made a determination that person is probably a good fit. We need the attorneys to determine whether they can do the work well at the firm. 09:11 Speaker 1 I think that's really important. Those two parts of the puzzle is one, are they good culture fit? And two, will they have the ability to do the job well and do it at a high level? And I think what I find is really helpful is to explain the culture to the candidates in the interview process so they know what your culture's like. And at our firm we have core principles which we've created that outline what we're all about. And I think that does some self vetting. I know in some of our job postings we put some interesting things in. What sort of things have you guys put in the postings that we've done? And then where do you guys typically see job postings being effective? 09:50 Speaker 2 We've changed up our job postings, I'd say in the past six months or so. And I think they've been very effective. And the reason I know is candidates tell me about the job posting. They're quoting part of the job posting back to me for as long as I've been here. One of our core principles is we all Take out the trash. And I would say 50% of the candidates that I speak to mention that in a very positive way. A lot of people mention excellence always. And so that's, you know, obviously something that we're looking for. But as I mentioned, we recently changed our job postings in part to highlight the growth opportunities at the firm. And people mention that. 10:33 Speaker 2 In fact, today I was interviewing someone and were talking about the growth potential and she said, oh, I noticed in your job posting that you had listed that someone who started out as a part time, one day a week paralegal ended up becoming the chief of staff at the firm. And it's nice to hear those things being, you know, repeated back to you. I do think it means that our job postings have been effective. 10:58 Speaker 1 Yeah, I completely agree. And Christy, what areas have you seen us post jobs with success? Like what are the websites or locations? If you're, if it's a solo practitioner or a smaller firm, where would you say, hey, you should post your job here? And you're probably going to get the most bang for your buck. 11:14 Speaker 3 Absolutely. So if you're looking for an attorney, Texas State Bar is a great place to do that. Now you are going to have to pay a little bit of money for that, but that's where attorneys find their jobs. Indeed is also a great place to post for your positions, whether it's an attorney or a staff position everyone's on. Indeed Indeed is I think the largest job site in the world and you can also post free jobs there. So it's a great place to find people. The other great thing, especially for an attorney or even a legal position, you can post to the law schools. You can post the top 100 law schools and really cast that wide net to get an excellent attorney candidate. 11:53 Speaker 1 Well, and our firm has grown rapidly the last 10 years and five or six years ago we did not have a very large recruiting budget. So there's a few tips that I've seen where you can do things relatively inexpensive that can get you more bang for the buck if you don't have a big budget or don't have a recruiting department. One is the law schools and universities will typically let you post a job for free if you reach out to them directly. Now that's a little bit more work and a little bit more of a headache, but it can be very effective and that's essentially free. I think putting something on your website when you're looking for a job posting can be really useful as well. I love. 12:33 Speaker 1 Indeed, because you don't pay unless you get a candidate applicant actually apply to your organization or I think. Is that how it works, Alison? 12:40 Speaker 2 I think it actually works by you pay based on how many people click on your job posting. But the nice thing about indeed is you decide how much per day you want to spend on your job. So for us, if it's a high priority position, something we want to fill relatively quickly, we're going to make our per day budget higher than if it's a position that we maybe can take a little bit more time to fill. Indeed works like a conveyor belt. So let's say you say it's a dollar a click and you $10 a day after you're at the top of the heap and then 10 people click on your job posting and then you go on the conveyor belt. But the next day you're back on top. 13:18 Speaker 2 And one thing you could do is to check your job posting, let's say at 6:00 clock at night to see, well, am I on the first page still or now am I on page seven? If you're on page seven, maybe you want to increase your spend. If you're on page one, maybe you can decrease your spend. So indeed gives you that flexibility, you know. 13:36 Speaker 1 And the second part of it is, at least back when I opened the firm, the economy wasn't great. We would just get bombarded with resumes. And I remember just having my inbox just full and trying to figure out how I was going to vet all these candidates. Have you guys found any software programs or any techniques to help vet certain candidate or not vet, but in order to organize the candidates and decide which ones make it to the next level. 14:01 Speaker 2 We use Bamboo as our applicant tracking system. And when I first came to the firm, it was the first time I had ever used an applicant tracking system. And it's great. What you do is applicants can apply directly through the applicant tracking system. So all their information appears in a list. Let's say we're looking for an entry level paralegal. Bamboo will generate a link. You put that link in your job posting and candidates will use that link to apply directly for the job. So they're able to upload their resume and cover letter. We can then go in and review the resumes. Give the candidate you get one to five stars and you can put notes into Bamboo and you can move the candidate through the pipeline on bamboo. If it's someone that you want to meet with, you can set it for schedule. 14:49 Speaker 2 Video interview. If it's someone you want to bring in for an in person interview, you can set that. If you're moving on to a second round interview, you schedule set second round interview and those statuses are customizable. So we have created them for what works for us, but you can create them for whatever works for you. And we say that if it's not in bamboo, it didn't happen. So we make sure that any conversation that we have with any of our candidates that are in the pipeline go into bamboo so we know exactly where we are with everyone in the conversations that we've had. 15:27 Speaker 3 Zynda Law Group is a plaintiff's personal injury law firm made up of over 30 lawyers that handle catastrophic personal injury and wrongful death cases throughout the United States. We regularly counsel and joint venture with firms across the country. Over the last several years we have paid millions of dollars in joint venture counsel fees to the law firms we work with. If you are a law firm or attorney and have a catastrophic personal injury or wrongful death case you would like to joint venture or work with Zynda Law Group on, please reach out to us at 800-863-5312 or email us@infodferm.com and we can set up a time to discuss your. 16:09 Speaker 1 I think something that we do really well is we try to get as many people involved in the hiring process as possible and I think that helps to see does everyone see the same thing in this person? And also allows to make sure everyone feels like they have an opinion on who we're bringing on to certain teams. And Christy, jump in if I get this part wrong. But I think our process right now is someone applies, then we do a short 10 to 15 to 20 minute interview, then that the notes from that are run up to someone in the department they're going to work in and then we bring them for a more extended interview, usually typically with two to three people. 16:49 Speaker 3 Yes. So that's generally correct because we're fortunate enough that we've been able to grow our recruiting department. Typically It's a short 10, 15 minute video interview with the candidate. If we like them, we do bring them in for a more longer interview, either with Allison or even with myself first before we even bring in the person from the department that we're hiring for because we want to make sure before we take their time out of their day, this person could be a good fit. Once Allison or I determine that they're a good fit, we would bring in maybe that person's potential manager and have the Manager come in and do an extended interview with that person. And then if there's any other decision makers that need to meet with that person, we'll schedule another interview for them as well. 17:29 Speaker 3 So it's not a fast process. We really take the time to vet each person because we want to make sure it's the right fit for a lot of reasons. We want to make sure we're hiring the best people. So we want to get everyone's opinion and get everyone involved because it also, on our end, on the employee's end, it gets them committed and involved, and it gets them excited about the new person that's going to be on their team and invested in their success. 17:52 Speaker 1 I think it's really important to take your time. When you're trying to hire someone, especially an attorney who maybe is moving from a different part of the country to come work at your firm or is switching practice areas, what do you guys find is better experience or potential or both, or do you guys have an opinion on that one way or the other? When it comes to lawyers that are trying to join a law firm, I. 18:13 Speaker 2 Think it depends on what you're looking for. I'm not a sports person, but someone gave me a pretty good sports analogy once. Are you looking for a good athlete or are you looking for a third baseman? And that might depend on what your hiring needs are at the time. So we're a plaintiffs personal injury law firm. Sometimes we need to bring in someone who can hit the ground running, and then their experience matters. Sometimes we are looking for someone that we can mold. And so if they just have raw talent, that could be a wonderful fit at the time for us. 18:41 Speaker 1 Yeah, I completely agree. Christy, what do you think? 18:44 Speaker 3 We've seen success either way with some new people have really great potential. Maybe we love their drive. We love the reason that they want to be a plaintiff's personal injury lawyer. And then we've also seen when someone has experience, yeah, they can come in and hit the ground running and have great results. But we've also seen the opposite, right, where someone maybe has a lot of experience, but they come in with a lot of bad habits or preconceived notions about our practice and the practice in general. And maybe they're not as successful because they're not willing to learn, even though they've been doing it for a while. 19:16 Speaker 1 To me, I think a lot of it comes down to passion. Are they passionate about helping people and helping our class? I think that's really important to our principals. Are they open to a new way of practicing law and do they have the requisite skills? Are they willing to acquire them and put in the hard work to do that? And we've had great success with people with a lot of experience coming in and doing a great job, and then people with the same amounts of experience who just aren't open to doing things a certain way. I think I learned that the hard way early on in my career. You know, hiring people with a lot of experience and not paying as close of attention to, well, what is that experience? 19:52 Speaker 1 You know, is it experience practicing law at a high level or is it experience practicing law in a different field? Because the skill sets don't always translate? You know, just because our firm does one way doesn't mean another one is. And they may be a better fit for a firm down the street versus our firm. I think that vetting process is really critical. 20:10 Speaker 3 I think you're absolutely right when it comes to being passionate about what we do. Because with some of the people who may have had a lot of experience and they haven't worked out, it really came down to they weren't committed to our mission and what were trying to accomplish. And that's so important here, especially for a plaintiff's firm for personal injury. The people who want to do this are truly client centered. They're, you know, at the end of the day, it's like what's best for the client. And they keep that top of mind. So even if they're, maybe they don't like the way we do something, they're going to do it because they're doing this for the client. 20:44 Speaker 1 Yeah, I completely agree. And I remember early on in my practice when were growing and I desperately needed people to come on board. I call it the warm body syndrome. Like, it's a warm body. You have a law degree, get in here and start doing some work. And it became a rotating door because, you know, they come in, they're not very good, they leave, or maybe they don't like what they're doing. And what I've learned over the years, the more desperate I am to bring a new person on because of the need of the organization, the more I need to slow down. I need to be cognizant of that feeling and know that is impacting our decision making. 21:19 Speaker 1 And that's what I've really loved about working with you guys and the other attorneys in the firm is we're really able to collaborate and make decisions on hires as a group. And you get all sorts of different perspectives. I also really believe in the idea that if one important person of the team doesn't feel great about a hire, you should pass, even if the rest of the group does, because they may be seeing something that you're not. And I think being a trial lawyer or being a recruiter, being an hr, you're really strong at understanding people and being empathetic and seeing the things that maybe little details reveal about someone. So I really like that as well. What mistakes, Alison, did you make early in your career in placing people at firms that you've learned and grown from? 22:06 Speaker 2 So I think the first thing is probably don't get blinded by someone's resume. Someone might have a great resume, and you think, well, on paper, this person is the ideal candidate. Of course they're going to be amazing. And you go in with preconceived notions about the person on the interview, which may or may not be true. So I think keeping that in mind and really looking beyond someone's resume, I don't know that I always did that when I first started. Another thing would be not to ignore red flags. If someone's had 10 jobs in 10 years, they're probably not going to stay at your company. Even if they tell you that this is the place. For me, it's the only place I want to be. 10 jobs in 10 years is probably not a good sign. 22:50 Speaker 2 And the last thing I think is listen to references. I think people think that we're just checking the box when we call references. But if a reference can't come up with something positive to say about the person that you're calling about, that's a big red flag and something to really consider before you make someone an offer. 23:07 Speaker 1 And I think it's very useful to. To make those reference calls, even though you may assume that it's always going to be positive. Typically you can tell. Read between the lines and try not to make it brief. You know, try to really dig in. So tell me what they did there. What were they great at? You know, what areas would you say I should get them more training so you can kind of hear what the strengths and weaknesses are of each candidate. And I'm a big believer that past is prologue when it comes to experience. Especially when you get with an attorney that's five plus years in their practice. You know, you start getting to 10, 15 years, and like you said, they've had 10 jobs. That's indicative that they may not be there very long. 23:47 Speaker 1 One technique that I found very useful when reviewing a resume is I tell their story out Loud. I say, okay, I decided to go to college here, then I went to law school, then I did this, then I did that. If the story starts sounding really wacky, then maybe they're not the best fit and wacky. I mean, if you've had 12 jobs and they have great explanations for all 12 jobs, but how many people have that much bad luck? What do you guys think are the are some good tips for young attorneys that are trying to get noticed by law firms? How do you get to the top of the pile and stand out? 24:18 Speaker 2 I think people don't realize just how far an actual good looking resume goes. Submit a resume with a nice cover letter that is geared towards the position that you are applying for. Not everybody does that, but something that just looks professional definitely catches my eye. And I'm a lot more inclined to give that person a shot than I am for someone where it seems like they've put no effort at all into a resume and cover letter. I mean, Christy and I get tons of resumes in every day and we're hiring for a lot of positions all the time. So that is definitely one way to stand out. 24:55 Speaker 1 I completely agree. Christy, what do you think? 24:57 Speaker 3 I think another way to stand out is when the candidate does their research, whether it's on you, specifically on the firm. I've read cover letters where someone referenced my past time at a law firm and said, I see that you were a practicing attorney and you came to Zenda Law Group. And I was really impressed that they took the time to look. Look up who I was and try to make that personal connection. It shows that they're really invested in this job opportunity. 25:22 Speaker 1 I completely agree. There's nothing funnier than when someone addresses the wrong firm in a cover letter. 25:28 Speaker 3 Happens all the time. All the time. 25:30 Speaker 1 Or they come in and they know nothing about the law firm. They're like, so what type of law do you guys practice? And that's not going to last very long. I also think personally dropping off your resume and cover letter goes a long way or mailing it. I think that's a way to get across to someone's desk. I know before when I was really busy and I didn't have a recruiting department, it was just myself and my paralegal. I would have them print a stack of the resumes and cover letters and I would go through them until I found five people to interview. And after that I stopped looking because there's just so many to get through. I didn't have enough time. So you've got to think of ways to stand out and get to the front of the pack. 26:10 Speaker 3 And I think the other thing, not even before the interview, but after the interview, send a thank you card for sure. At the interview, wear a suit. Even in the initial first round, 10 minute video interview, we can see you wear a suit, look professional, treat it as if you were doing a three hour interview for sure. Thank you cards go a long way and in person drop offs definitely help because you can actually feel the quality of the paper, of the resume or see how much time they took to put something together. 26:39 Speaker 1 And I would tell young attorneys as well is don't try to go after 100 positions, find two or three you really want and just go after them very aggressively. Another couple tips for posting jobs. If you're a small law firm and have a tight budget, social media can be great. Getting out there and networking can be really useful and looking that as part of your marketing is trying to focus on making networks of potential hires. I know we've gotten a lot of great attorneys that have joined our firm because they were friends of people within the firm because those can be your best spokespeople. 27:10 Speaker 3 Yeah, absolutely. When I first got to the firm, our recruiting budget was definitely not what it is now. And I remember I would post the job postings on my own personal Facebook and I would ask my friends to my attorney friends to share it to see if they knew anyone. And I don't know if that was a great success, but it felt good because people want to share in your success and they want to help you out. So don't be shy about posting on your own personal social media as well. 27:32 Speaker 1 Yeah, I completely agree. Well, what about interview questions? What are yalls tips or techniques or strategies for how to pick out interview questions that are going to get you to figure out if this is a good candidate or not? 27:47 Speaker 2 I think first you have to figure out exactly what you're looking for in terms of filling that role. What skills are you looking for, what qualities are you looking for and really focusing the questions on that. So certainly you know if you're looking for an attorney, you want to know and let's say you're looking for an attorney who can come in as a more seasoned lawyer at the firm. So do they know how to take an expert deposition? Do they know how to prepare for a trial, an argument, whatever the case may be? So you do need questions designed for those skills, but you also want questions designed for other qualities. We want people that are hardworking. We want people that are problem solvers. So gearing your questions towards exactly what you're looking for in the person that you want to bring on. 28:33 Speaker 1 Yeah, I completely agree. I also find work products really useful as well, in addition to questions. And if you're hiring someone to take depositions day one, get a copy of their depositions, you know, they can redact them or get. They can get their client's permission or they may already be public record. But I found that's very useful to see how they think. And I know we've had a lot of success in sending attorneys questions related to how they would practice law. Have you found that useful? 28:58 Speaker 2 Absolutely, for a number of reasons. One, we do request writing samples, but unlike a deposition transcript, a writing sample, we don't know how much editing there was, but when we're sending someone questions and we want a written answer back, they're writing that, their answers on their own. So I find it helpful for that. And it also gives, you know, life is open book, so it gives someone some time to really think through answer. And it gives us an opportunity to see how they really would think through something if they have some time. And not quite as on the spot as you are during an interview. 29:33 Speaker 1 Yeah, I completely agree. 29:34 Speaker 3 I think one thing when you're looking at work product, whether it's a writing sample, a depo transcript, or even those questions that we send to candidates, if that writing sample does not meet your standard, your quality of excellence, don't ignore that. Don't just think, well, maybe they just had a couple typos here and maybe this just wasn't their best work. That is their best work. That's what they gave you. That's what they put forth for this job. So trust that and also trust your instincts. Whenever you have a red flag or something just doesn't look right to you. 30:02 Speaker 1 When you're looking at work product, I completely agree. You are getting their best work. It's like a first date. This is the best they're ever going to be. It's just downhill from here. And so I think don't overlook that aspect of it and trust your instincts. If something doesn't feel right, it probably is not right. And I would go with that, opposed to overriding it. Because I can't think of a time when I was really on the fence and struggling on whether to make a hire that it worked out. That was usually I was trying to fit a square peg in a round hole because we desperately needed that paralegal or that attorney. And it was kind of Back to that warm body syndrome. And I was really trying to convince myself. 30:42 Speaker 3 Well, and also this goes back to the question about what were some of the mistakes you made early on? Likeability. Someone's likability plays a huge factor in how you view them during the process. So maybe their writing sample isn't that great, but they were awesome in that interview. And sometimes you let that cloud your judgment and you really can't. You have to be as objective as possible when reviewing this. You know, in total, it's just, it's so important for your firm because this is who's going to be on your team and working with the team you already have and trust. And they might be a charmer in the interview, but when they get into the thick of it, maybe they can't write a memo or a brief. And then you're. 31:17 Speaker 3 You're stuck with someone who's not, as you know, doesn't meet your quality of excellence. 31:21 Speaker 1 I completely agree. Are there any books you guys would recommend that a law firm or an attorney who is looking to add people on Reed would help them that process? 31:32 Speaker 2 I read or rather listened to who by Jeff Smart and Randy street. And what that book does is they present what they call the a method for hiring, which is like top grading. So that might be something that other people listening have heard of. And they're really giving you methods for ensuring that you're hiring a players and you might not need to incorporate everything that they say. But within the book are good tips and strategies for hiring, some good interview questions, some good questions to ask, references. So overall, I think the book has a lot of helpful tips. 32:07 Speaker 1 Great. And the final note I just will leave you all with is I think as with anything in life and the practice of law, you have to spend time preparing to do this process and do it well if you want to do a great job. If you're going to wing it and run into an interview five minutes before unprepared, you're probably not going to do a good job embedding that person. So just like preparing for a deposition or preparing for trial, the hard work comes before the act itself. So. Well, thank you guys so much for taking time out of your busy day and talking with us. I appreciate it. 32:40 Speaker 3 Thanks, Jack. 32:40 Speaker 2 Thanks, Jack. 32:45 Speaker 1 Thank you for taking the time to listen to this episode of the Effective Lawyer. 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