Changing Lanes: From Defendant to Plaintiff Law

Welcome to The Effective Lawyer, a podcast for ambitious attorneys who want to improve their practice. My name is Jack Zinda I'll be your host. Today we're going to talk about making the switch from the defense to the plaintiff side. This isn't an easy decision, and I've seen a lot of attorneys that have struggled to make the transition. And so today I wanted to talk about what are the pros and cons of doing that and how to actually go about making a successful transition if that's the direction you want to take your career. And tell me with this discussion today is one of our best trial lawyers and I think one of the best trial lawyer in the country, Neil Solomon. Neil's a partner at our firm Zinda law group. He's a member of the American Association for Justice, has been recognized by super lawyers as a rising star for several years. He's a member of the Texas Trial Lawyer Association, the Multi-Million Dollar Advocates Forum, and a member of the Academy of Truck Accident Attorneys. Neil has handled dozens of catastrophic injury and wrongful death cases throughout the United States, including gas explosions, premise liability, truck accidents and a variety of other cases. And I personally have worked with Neil on dozens of cases over the years. And most importantly for this conversation today prior to joining Zinda law group, Neil worked at a preeminent defense firm and has made, I think what we could all say is a very successful transition to the plaintiff side. So welcome Neil thanks. I think jury still out Jack. I don't know about yet but I'd say overall pretty successful. Well, I wanted to throw you a bone. I appreciate that. It's a good place to start. Talk a little bit about your career and when you first decide you wanted to be an attorney. I grew up in Houston, Texas. And there, when I was pretty small my dad actually went to law school himself so he was an attorney. So growing up I got to see that in his practice. And for the most part he was actually a defense attorney doing mainly civil litigation cases, kind of like the other side of what we're doing here today. So I saw him doing that originally thought, I'm not sure I want to be an attorney when I was in college. I took a business law class, really enjoyed it, thought I did well at it and eventually actually worked with a professor as a teaching assistant for a couple semesters. So did that and saw that I really liked the law. Maybe not necessarily business we'll see if I went that route, but definitely wanted to be a lawyer. And like every trial lawyer watching some law and order during law school or during college as well, pushed me over to the edge to go be a trial lawyer. And you went to some pretty easy schools, right? What was the first school you went to? Yeah, I went to the University of Texas at Austin, Longhorn four years there and then went to Emory for law school in Atlanta. So did that for three years and then came back to Texas right after that. So when you first came out, did you know you wanted to be a trial lawyer? I knew I wanted to be a trial lawyer, so I at least cut the law jobs down in half. I didn't want to do transactional, didn't want to do something else. I knew that I at least wanted to get in the courtroom and be a trial lawyer. And at that time I got out of school, it was 2011, I think at that time, the market wasn't great for any lawyers coming out and a lot of different professions. And at that time, just looking for a job had law school loans and was looking for something to do and was lucky enough to find a spot working as a litigator at a mainly insurance defense and self-insured corporation defense work. I remember when I came out of law school, I got my first student loan invoice and my jaw hit the ground. I was like holy cow, I need to get to work fast if I'm going to pay this. That was the thought got to pay the bills. So hit the ground and my now wife have gotten a job in Texas and in Austin actually, and so I hit the payment in Austin and luckily found something not... Within about I think six weeks post getting bar results. I don't know if you found this in law school. I kind of felt like there was a little bit of a negative bias towards plaintiffs lawyers, especially personal injury lawyers and Baylor was a little different because there had been a lot of successful plaintiffs lawyers from there, but talking to other folks, it seems like most law schools try to push the attorneys towards corporate or towards big law. Did you find that the case? Yeah, I think that'd definitely be the case. And I think I probably saw that at Emory as well. I don't really see them ever or recall ever actually having them bring that in or pushing that as I'm say agenda. But we didn't see that too much. And so there's definitely a bigger push for there's a business kind of track you could take for corporate side and then separately, they did actually at least have a litigation trial techniques program that they required all students to do. It's not the Baylor practice court that I've heard so much about, but it was a good bootcamp at the end of one of our years to go over and they required every student to do it that I thought was probably useful for everyone to at least see. But back to the original question no, they didn't really push for or kind of show much exposure for plaintiff lawyers for sure. Yeah. And I think a lot of that is not from any nefarious reasons I think one, we tend to be cowboys and want to do our own thing. And so were not necessarily out there trying to be involved with teaching at law schools. And I think number two, a lot of the professors come from big law background or judicial background because they're very brilliant academics and maybe didn't have that plaintiffs law experience. But I'd like to see that more in law schools because I think there's a lot of people that miss out on their calling because they're so married to big law or corporate litigation focus. No, I think you're right and I think it also goes back to something we talk about all the time of making sure that we're kind of educating the public and everyone about what we do and how helpful and good it can be for the community and how enriching it can be as a career. And I don't think they really portray that in law school whatsoever. And so instead of just having kind of whatever stigma someone may think about it and actually getting real people into talk would be great. This podcast is presented by Zinda Law Group. ZLG is a plaintiff's personal injury law firm made up of over 30 lawyers who handle catastrophic personal injury and wrongful death cases throughout the United States. The 30 plus experienced attorneys at Zinda Law Group regularly could co council and joint venture with firms across the country. Over the last several years we have paid out millions of dollars in fees to law firms we work with. To learn more about partnering with law group, go to zdfirm.com/partner. Well, so when did you first make a decision that you may want to switch sides from defense to plaintiffs? So I worked at that first firm they took on a handful of personal injury cases. And so the good news is that they got to put that on my plate so I got a little taste of helping out a few people that on these kind of one off plaintiff's cases and saw that I enjoyed that work. You're actually working with people and going through that process. And so it was after about a couple years I had switched firms and realized that the defense life wasn't for me. And it actually was a couple of different plaintiffs attorneys who I was working against that reached out that said talking with you and seeing your skillset I think that may be on the wrong side. Have you thought about being a plaintiff's attorney? And after a couple of years, I thought more and more about it and thought that was probably the right answer. So I talked to a couple of different attorneys that I met that did the work and at that point said okay, find somewhere to go. When I find attorneys that make this successful switch it seems to always be about the clients. And it seems that story is very common. They worked on one or two plaintiffs cases and they just really enjoyed helping people. I find rarely is it about the money. Because you make good money on both sides. It tends to be who has that interest in really focused on helping individuals? Yeah, I think for kind of goes both ways. So not only the getting to work on the kids on the plaintiff side, but even walking in on the defense side. So I'm walking into a room and my job every single day is to walk into a room, go into a deposition. And even if you're not overtly saying it, trying to find a way why that person's a liar, they're faking, they're not really that injured and they don't deserve compensation for what they've been through. And I would leave these depositions feeling terrible for these people that I just took a deposition of or I'm going up against. And I'm just thinking, man, I feel a lot better if I was on the other side of the table. So at that point was kind of when it finally hit me of okay, there's definitely a way to get to the other side I just got to go do it. And let's put a pin in some of the tactics that use on the defense side so we can share that with some of our friends here in a minute. But when you first made the move to our firm, what was kind of the mindset switch like? Were there things that you remember were difficult to make a switch mindset wise? I think some of the things were useful because I was able to look at how it was being approached or the way that a defense attorney or adjuster might be looking at a particular case. But I think just also kind of getting rid of some of those probably biases that I had built in over time of just listening to other attorneys who are supervisors or bosses or adjusters for that matter. And then talking a certain way about plantiff attorneys are aged individuals. And so kind of making sure to is pretty easy for me to drop that, but kind of getting that out. And then also instead of looking at why something is wrong, kind of looking at why it can be right. I don't know if that makes sense necessarily, but trying to look at the client and listen to their story and show how we can make it to be true. No, I completely agree. I think on our side we're trying to tell a story that's compelling. And on the defense side you're trying to break down and destroy a story. So it's a two different parts of the brain. And I find a lot of attorneys that start off on the defense side, make great plaintiffs lawyers because they see the holes in the case and they don't drink their own cool-aid or they don't buy too much into a case, kind of come out skeptically. And then if you can overcome that skepticism you have a great case. Yeah. I think that definitely could be helpful and then all the way down to just the value of a case. And so for however many years I'm listening to whatever insurance adjuster or somebody else telling you the value of a case. And almost, I don't want to say beating it down, but kind of going that route versus believing in the case and knowing what it can and is worth because you know the client, you know the story you can tell a jury later on. What about on our side, we typically get hired pretty early on in the process, something bad happened and we get a call pretty quickly. Was that difficult? Well I guess first what's it like on the defense side when do you typically get a call on the defense side to start working on a case? So it actually mixes a little bit. So at both of the firms, they had worked for either insurance companies or companies that would call them the day of a wreck. Hey, there was a wreck going on in this part of town, can you go out there and go take photos or go meet somewhere. And I went out to a scene the day after a case where a woman was tragically killed outside of a bus stop. So went out to go talk to people, taking that same bus the next day. So there are a lot of firms that get out there and are reacting quickly, but that's probably more the minority, I'd say probably 90% of the cases that we get are only once a lawsuit has been filed. It's been handled through their pre litigation department through their adjuster. And then you get once a lawsuit has been filed, you then get the case and whatever else and told you have an answer due by this date. Well, one thing I love about what we do is we get to pick our clients. And I think our firm gives the attorneys here a lot of leeway to reject cases they don't believe in. Was it tough to get used to evaluating cases and decide what are good ones or bad ones? It took a little bit of time to figure that piece out. And I think over time, even kind of our own evaluation of what that makes sense for us and our firm and what we put into it as to the case. But it did take a little bit to figure that piece out. Obviously, there's some cases everybody knows immediately as soon as they call in, that's a good one we want, but trying to figure out which ones we can, which people we can help out and which be better suited for somebody else. What are some books or CLEs that you read or watched that help you get ingrained in the practice? And not to say anything negative about what defense lawyers do, but I feel like we have to handle about 60 to 70% more than they do. And there's a lot to learn and kind of get used to our ecosystem. So were there books or CLEs that you found particularly helpful? I think a big part of what I like about the plaintiff's practice and I will get back to your question, is the brotherhood of it Everyone trying to help each other out, they're trying to share what they do, kind of rising tide lifts a boats. Whereas I do feel that a lot of times it can be more fractured on the defense side and they're not as open and sharing about kind of how they handle it. But with that when I first started there's kind of required reading that came in the door and so obviously Rules of the road is a great one. Reptile just learning about that Ball on damages three are kind of some of the first ones that came in and over time kept going from there, Don't eat the bruises by Mitnik is a really good one that I like. There's a lot of good tactics and tricks in there. I think you brought up a really good point about the sense of community on the plaintiff side. And I think if you start practicing plaintiff's law either from another practice area or from the defense, I really think it's important to join a trial lawyers association, either a local-city, one or statewide or AAJ because when I figured out that TLA existed and I got on their Lister, it was like adding rocket fuel to my practice. I just could not believe there was this place where people would answer any dumb question I had at any time of the day. And it's just such a giving community. Yap. Anytime it's a new issue. It's probably not a new issue for somebody else. And so it's a really great place to look and see and get feedback from. What about I know that we typically get paid different than defense lawyers, it's usually pretty steady salary. And on the plaintiff side, we're typically more driven by bonuses and things like that. Was that a difficult decision to make? Did you do anything special to prepare for that mindset or were you ready to go? It's another reason why I enjoy being on the plaintiffs practice it much more fits my mindset and I'm a bit more of a gambler. So I'd rather bet on myself and go have that kind of carrot in front of me to go get it. So it was less of an issue there I'll be honest, still a little scary because the steady paycheck. And I see it with any person that is switching of kind of being prepared to do that. You don't know what's ahead but no, at that point I was ready to go kind of take a leap and see what would happen and don't regret it at all. And what I would do if I'm think about making a switch from either different practice area or from a different area like defenses, make a list of the characteristics that you think it requires. I do think there's a level of risk tolerance that you need to have as a personal injury lawyer. And over time it gets easier because you start realizing it's not as risky as you thought out in the beginning because you get really good at evaluating cases. I think our firm once we get past the initial evaluation stage about 98% end up in a positive resolution for the client. But at first it's very scary and especially if you're making the shift to opening your own practice. You've got to be prepared to withstand some of those headwind. We've had a couple defense lawyers that tried to make the switch and they just could not overcome that aspect of it which makes it difficult. Yeah. And when I was talking to people originally, part of what was discussed it's do you start our own practice? Because it actually does seem to fit even more so on the plaintiff side or you can start your own practice with pretty minimal upstart, especially now versus joining a firm. And so at that point it made sense for me to join a firm and kind of have that built in set up ready to go. Yeah. And I think especially it's like when you open your own practice, you have to be considering, do I have the money for case expenses? And do I have the money to withstand 12 months of not getting paid? We had an hourly practice that was a good buffer for that in the beginning. So that's another tip if you're considering starting your own practice. Consider teaming up with someone who does hourly at first to give you a little bit of a buffer those down months. Because it takes a while to get that windmill going of having enough cases to hit consistently. What are some of the things that you think might make someone a bad fit to join the plaintiff aside from the defendant side? Are there any things you think about like characteristics, not they're a bad person, but maybe someone is excited about the idea and they should maybe second guess it or think about it again. I think some of the things you've already hit on are right. So I think kind of having that mindset of just because you most recently said it, not that it's most important, but having that mindset of willing to kind of bet on yourself. And I have that risk tolerance a little bit to deal with some ups and flows because almost in any practice there'll at least be some. And then I think even more so, I don't want to say conservative is the right word, but you can be more defense oriented. It's just kind of the best way to put it. And so if you find yourself a looking at a case and finding yourself believing in the defense or thinking that every person exaggerating to cheat the system, then you're probably not the best person to be helping that person out. And so you're a better suited being that [inaudible 00:18:43] advocate for that insurance company. It wasn't for me and I don't continue to want to do that, but I think some people that it is just a better fit for them. And one thing you can do is talk to your partner or if you have your own firm and you're doing defense work experiment, take a couple plaintiffs cases to see if you like it. The other test that I'm in trying to figure out how to articulate better is do you enjoy being around people at walks of life? And I don't mean can and you pretend that you enjoy it. But do you genuinely in your heart of hearts feel comfortable going into anybody's living room from any socioeconomic class, sit down, having dinner with them and enjoying it. Because most people can fake it. But I find what makes someone a great plaintiff's lawyer they really enjoy people, no matter what part they're coming from. I don't think there's anything wrong with people that want to deal with just business folks wearing suits all day. I think that's one mindset that doesn't make you a bad person. But you have to be comfortable with that, we do a lot of things that might be considered fun or might also be considered something you would never want to do. For example going to a scene where wreck happens in blue jeans, gloves and boots to figure out what occurred driving seven hours to sign up a client because it's a big case. And you need to make sure that your firm gets the case, which you don't have to worry about on the defense side. And that's just part of the game. And if you don't enjoy that or could see yourself at least someone enjoying it, I think it makes it very difficult to fake it for a career. Yeah. And I think going with that of just getting the actual, I think it helps kind of take away the monotony of the day and getting to talk to clients and getting to know their story. And I think having that piece that much more real connection with the person and getting to actually kind of hand them that cheque at the end, that hopefully is making a difference in their life for what they've been through. That's what helps kind of that's what helps move the needle for me. Well, let's get into some of the tactics that defense lawyers use. So maybe we could give that to some of other attorneys listening. And talk through how things work on that side of the V. So let's start off with just the dynamic when you get a case who are you talking to? Who's the person calling the shots, my understanding it's not the client, it's typically someone else or so how does that work? Yeah. So if it's through an insurance company which 90% of the time or more it is. if there's an adjuster that's assigned the claims file or a claims examiner or whatever title or term they're given at that time, and that's the person that you'll generally be dealing with. So they'll be sending you your file, you'll do your report, turn it in and kind of give them an evaluation of the case and what you're expected to do expected budget for, for the case moving forward in a general evaluation to start. And so you'll kind of be doing that and providing reports on whatever basis may be required, whether it's monthly or quarterly or whatever it may be. But generally every or so you're sending them some kind of update about what's going on with the case, what you want to do and how things are going. What's the information flow like? How involved or well, I guess how much does the adjuster share with you with what they're thinking and how much are going back to them or is it pretty isolated? It really depends on the adjuster. I've had some that like being part of the team and they're collaborative and you walk into a mediation and Hey, this is what we have today let's work together. And others that just close to the vest you sit in your evaluation. You show up the same day and then you have to literally look over, ask them okay, what's our next move? They tell you how much more money to put on the table. And you're literally just kind of the go between for that day. So it's 100% dependent upon who's there and the relationship and different attorneys have different relationships with their carriers. And sometimes they build up a lot of trust other times it's a brand new attorney through captive counsel and they just going around him if anything. So it really just depends on what's going on. What are some of the ways that a plaintiff lawyer might be able to take advantage of that strange situation, where you have an adjuster, a client and defense lawyer to maximize a case result for the client. Did you ever see examples where plaintiffs lawyer that did a good job of that? I've always been of the general [inaudible 00:23:08] of you do better when you have a good relationship with opposing counsel. And so when I was on the defense side and some plaintiff attorney came in and was unreasonable or throwing grenades at me nonstop or whatever it was. I mean, I wasn't likely to do them any favors on my writeup or my talking to any adjuster. And so I think it really just depends on the case and sometimes your best ally could be that defense attorney who's working with them and can help out to see what the adjuster needs or wants for their file or for their writeup or whatever it may be. No, and I can believe, right. I would much rather have a good defense lawyer on the other side that knows how to handle a case, because then they're going to evaluate it properly. We just had our firm happy hour. And I think a 20% of the people there were defenses because we have good relationships with them. They know we're going to be firm and tough, but not you at jerks. Yeah. I think that's 100% the attitude it's like, here's what I need to happen. You didn't respond. I'm going to file this motion. And it still may be a motion compel I may ask for attorney's fees. I may ask for sanctions. Right? But I gave you all these opportunities to do what we talked about or what I requested to do ahead of time. And so just kind of laying that out. And I don't think any other attorney as long as you're staying above the belt, no one going to take it personally for doing so. How does who the plaintiff's lawyer is impact how the adjuster evaluates the case or was that discussed? Does the adjuster tell you those things or is it kind of like they keep that isolated? So generally speaking are going to put in their report to the adjuster. Hey, this is the attorney, this is their firm and this is our evaluation of them. And so these are the types of cases they have. This is what they do, these are their tactics, all those different things might be in there or at least some general impression of them. So all those things go into it. And that's kind of what I know about that. So like you said, there's a wall, right? So I don't, I don't go behind the wizards fence or whatever it is and find out, I think curtain, a curtain, [crosstalk 00:25:25]the glass wall of the wizard. The wizard garden. Neil has a newborn at home. He's got three kids. So we're lucky we got him in here. He's got like 12 cups of coffee in front of him. He looks like a wreck. I mean, just a mess of a human being. So I just appreciate you being here. You bet three kids plus fallen under plus full-time job, it keeps you busy. So... And your wife's a successful pillow lawyer. She is I'm excited I'm going to go see her arguing the face circuit coming up. Well, what about like at mediations? I've always wondered what that dynamic is like. We always hear, oh the defense lawyer either has the adjuster or doesn't I made mediations where the adjusters in a different room than the defense lawyer what's that dynamic like when you're sitting in mediation with the defense or in the adjuster? Yeah. So I think decent tip to find out is if you can find out who the adjuster is that's coming on the day of or ahead of time, I should say. So, you know it's a real adjuster because you find a lot of the time, especially it would be, now it's more zoom mediation that are happening a lot now. But especially when it's in person, if you're somewhere if that adjusters from out of town, they may just hire someone local. So they don't have to travel. And it's just a person with a jacket on, that's sitting there at the table and there's always this great story. Recently I was at mediation and I was on the plaintiff's side, but the defense attorney had asked or the mediator, all right let me start that over again. The defense attorney walked out of the room to go get to him from the other room. So the adjuster sitting in there and it's an opening and the guy forgotten its court or something. So I gave my presentation, sitting there with my client, the mediator's there and the defense attorney leaves. And so the mediator just says to make conversation with the adjuster. So who's the carrier here today. And the person literally had just no idea what to say, starts fumbling through her notes and goes, I actually, I'm not sure. I think that's in the other room. And so at that point this person's just sitting there because they're required to bring somebody and we still got the case resolved. The attorney had the person around to get the proper authority there. But it's good to know ahead of time who's going to be there. No, I completely agree. Well, Neil, I appreciate you given us so much time today, especially with how busy you are, what would be one or three final tips you would give someone who's considering making the switch from plaintiffs to, from defense to plaintiffs? Yeah. So I think the biggest recommendation I would make and it's what I eventually did was go to lunch, go, to coffee, go get a drink with a couple other attorneys that do this type of work on the other side. And generally speaking, if you're switching from defense to plaintiff, you probably know a couple of the attorneys on the other side of the bar and have a frank discussion with them, someone you trust about your thoughts about thinking about it. And if you've not even in this practice area, just go reach out to someone that does this type of practice. And generally people are going to be extremely generous with their time, give you a few minutes, a phone call something and try to kind of walk through what that looks like. And if it sounds good to you. And if someone wants to get ahold of you to pick your brand on either a case or about this topic, how can they get ahold of you? Yeah. Feel free to reach out. You can reach me directly neil@zindalaw.com N E I L. I'm happy to talk with anybody about it. I get random people we'll reach out and I'm happy to try to get together and talk about it. Well, Neil thank you so much my friend, good seeing you. You too. Thanks. Thanks for listening to episode of The Effective Lawyer. You can learn more about our team and download other episodes of this podcast at zdfirm.com.