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We are going to give you a few minutes to trickle in and feel free to throw in the chat where you're coming from. Nice and easy and it's it's lovely to hear, hear all the different places that we're in. I'm in Maine and Holly, you're down. You're down South. Yes, I'm in Wilmington, NC. Oh, we got to Boston. That's close Maryland, Portland, OR I'm close to the other Portland, which gets confusing you.
Know what's funny is in North Carolina, we have a Jacksonville. When I first knew Tara was like, I'm like, that's in Florida and there's a Jacksonville. I learned recently there's a Jacksonville, GA. Is there really. Yeah, I should know about that. In high school, I had to memorize all of the counties. All right, So I think this is a good time to get started. So, folks, thank you so much for joining us.
Whether it's your afternoon or whether or not you're nibbling on dinner while you while you listen to us, we appreciate your attendance. And I also really appreciate Holly for joining us. I'm very much looking forward to this conversation. If you follow either of us, you know, we often get together and have these little conversations, but usually Holly's interviewing me and she always does something during these conversations. And I'm like, I want to know more. I want to know more.
So this is the I want to know more. And we're going to let Holly really take the stage here and share everything that she knows about interviewing and learning and development. And this is something that she's done over the course of her career, but it's also something
that she's done recently. So she's got some really great insights into what's going on right now, not just in learning development overall, because of course she runs a great podcast and so forth and keeps up with the industry, but really what's going on in the interview process specifically. So I didn't introduce myself. If you don't know me, I am Chelsea Averett and I'm the founder of Skip's job board.
And what I do is share jobs that are in what I call education adjacent fields or adjacent fields. So education, instructional design, learning and development, anything that's really looking for the skill set that we have of training or teaching other people. And Holly is going to introduce herself and then we're going to get started with some questions. The way we'll run the session is
I'll ask some questions. And if you guys want to hear any follow up as Holly is answering the questions, feel free to throw it in the chat. I'll be monitoring the chat and then we'll pull those questions up. And then we'll also have some time for some questions from you guys at the end of the session as well. So we're going to keep it pretty fluid, a conversation between Holly and me and also between you guys in the chat and all of us. Let's see Holly, go ahead.
Hi everyone, I appreciate you joining me, You know, especially those on the East Coast. It's dinner time. Thank you so much for coming on and Chelsea for inviting me on. I really think this, this particular webinar lends itself to being very discussion, focus, active focus on the audience because we want you to be able to ask questions that have been in your head or you've just things you've experienced recently like top of mind for you.
For those of you who don't know me, my name is Holly Owens. I am currently a freelance instructional designer. I have a couple different contracts that I've been working on, but I started my career out as a high school teacher, which I know there are some of you in the audience who are looking to
be former teachers like myself. I did it before it was the cool thing to do back in 2011. And then I moved into higher education, instructional design, instructional technology, which eventually evolved into all instructional design. Then I hopped into some corporate, went to Amazon. And then I most recently I did, which is not really super related, but it is related. I did some marketing director of marketing at Yellow Dick, which is an Ed tech company.
So every part of the sector you can think of I've probably been a part of or I just, you know, I've worked somewhere closely with someone who's a part, a part of every sector and learning and development. And I was really excited when Chelsea asked me to come and answer some of the, the point of questions that you have. And, you know, maybe alleviate, maybe be a little bit of a therapist and alleviate some of the stress or the anxiety that goes along with this whole
application process. And when it comes to especially for those transition into different careers. So I'm really excited to jump into all that. Cool before we ask questions, do you wanna talk a little bit about you have a lot of resources for people and do you wanna share some of those and I've got as we.
Yeah. So I've been doing some thinking about like how one of the things I love to do is take the very complex and break it down the simple pieces and the the one that Chelsea shared is the unlock your LMD career. I took. I used to have this very long list of resources that was all about, you know, where to start,
Blogs to follow, podcast books. And I took it and I just organized into this nice little, you know, like it looks kind of like a PowerPoint presentation that you can go through and you can click on what's pertinent to you or what, where you're at in the stage of the process. It's $5. I'm not here to like make millions, just trying to make some passive income because what Chelsea and I really do is we, we give back. There's also so that one's $5.
You can get updates for life. So, and I go in every couple weeks I update it, you'll get a notification that I added something to the list and that you know, you get access for like, I mean $5.00 because $5 is going to be like $15 in the next 10 years probably. So grab that. There's another one too. There's a free 1 specifically designed because I love teachers so much. It's the top five instructional design interview questions.
And then this, this came from a present, a presentation I did way back with ispring solutions. And also I've done a couple different ones that's free and it just talks you through. And this is really important for this session. Different types of of B is pushing his bed. Hold on one second. It has made a complete mess. If I showed you what he has done in the past five minutes, there's fluff everywhere. That sounds about right, yeah.
So this particular resource, I was like, these are questions that teachers ask me often or questions that I've encountered along the way. And I'm like, you just need to put this in the one thing that people can just download. Again, it's free. I update it regularly. And then there's one more, the Interview Pocket Guide.
This is something where it's not just for necessarily L&D, it's for any types of interviews you're going into, because I know some of us aren't necessarily going into learning development roles. You might be going into some of these Ed adjacent things that Chelsea talked to, the marketing communications, product management, Ed tech, all that stuff. So these are just questions that I see. I see a lot of like these are the questions you might get asked, but I don't see these are
the questions you should ask. So that particular resource has questions you will probably be asked at the different stages, which include like the initial interview, the group interview, so many different rounds, and then questions you should be
asking during the process. Because you know when you're interviewing, it's not just about the company, it's not just about getting a job, it's also figuring out if this is somewhere where you want to be. So questions for you to ask that I think are important at every stage of the interview process. Such good stuff. I love it. And I'm going to do more too. I'm writing a book. I'm, I'm definitely 100% going to have a book out by the
beginning of January is my goal. It's like it's the title so far what I have is it's not just one thing like landing a role in learning development, like the no BS guide, because there's a lot of noise out there. And I just want to, I'm going to sift through all that and just give you a guide, which I'm going to just put up as APDF and then self publish later on so that people can access it. But these are really these are guys that have helped me. Excellent.
I'm Beth. I'm going to throw some of the resources into the chat afterwards. And one I want to follow up on the initial resource that Holly was talking about. And actually, I'll share that one on the screen, The resource guy. Yeah, this one. It's highly worth your $5. This is one that I use regularly when I have, I'm doing a webinar or I just somebody asks me about something, I'm like, oh, I know where to find that information. Holly's already done it.
So this is, this is a really great way to just see what the industry looks like and what all of these resources are because there are a lot of people who share free resources. There are a lot of great books. There are a lot of great webinars and so forth. And Holly, he knows all of them, so I highly recommend. It's really difficult for us as we're trying to prepare for these interviews or the applications to figure out like so many tabs open, too many bookmarks like this. It has.
It's all there for you. Indeed. And then I don't actually have the, I don't have the pocket guide. I'm not going to. Share that one. OK, Yeah. So if you can share that one and then I need to figure out how I have these lovely little dropouts, but I don't actually have the links. So I'll grab them while while you're talking later. So Beth, they will, they will be popping into the chat as we have a moment. Let me pull that one out, Freddy. I'm mad at you. He's like, we're all humans.
Like there's literally my puppy is my child. He's just, he's a mess right now because it was like his. I don't know if anybody else experienced this. You probably experienced this with your cats. They have like a witching hour where they just. Like all of. Them or they go crazy and they tear stuff up. That's what he's doing right now. What's his name? Oh, that's Freddie. Freddie is his name. Excellent. All right, so let's get started
with some questions. And as I said earlier, you guys are welcome to throw in the chat follow up questions that you have and we'll just start to build a conversation. So the first question I wanted to ask Holly was really a big picture question because as she talked about earlier, she has nearly 20 years of experience in learning and development. So corporate learning and development and also higher Ed
learning and development. And I'm wondering what changes you've seen over time in how interviews have just been conducted, What kinds of questions are being asked and what the trends are? Yeah, I would say over time, like when I was transitioning out of teaching into higher Ed, there was, it was like a dime a dozen. The finding the instructional technology or instructional design jobs is really super difficult, but it wasn't as
competitive as it is nowadays. You know, we talked about this on the podcast recently about the market being saturated and you know, you were talking about your thing of saturation different ways. And I think of the different ways too, is like it's just more people who are qualified for the roles. Like people are very, you're seeing my. I know. I just texted them like I'm getting you can get it. Get the dog. That's stuff all over the floor.
But it's like you're competing with people who are on the same level as you or maybe, you know, have more experience than you. There's not going to be this sort of situation where, you know, I could apply for a role in higher education back in 2013 and I may or may not have all the experience, but they would take a chance on me. That's not really happening anymore. There aren't the like, I'm going to take a chance on Holly because I talked to her. I've, I've, I've seen some of her work.
I think she can do it. You know, we're going to give her time to, to upskill. We're going to give her that time to, to be proficient. But seems like nowadays everybody just wants you to just. Start. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's no, there's no training in learning and development. Yeah, it's funny, isn't it's kind of kind of ironic, you know, and that's actually as I'm saying that that's one of the questions I ask is how many months, how many days?
What is their their own boarding plan look like their training
plan. So that's one question I would encourage you to ask is like, what is the time to proficiency for, you know, somebody like myself coming in, like I asked that a recently an interview and they said, well, you're going to shadow me for a couple weeks and then we're just going to let you go and, and start the position because you have the experience, which is a good thing and a bad thing in the sense like 2 weeks isn't a lot of time to kind of get familiar with the systems
and all the different things. But also too, if I'm shattering a person who's already doing it, I feel like that's very much, you know, tied into like this is what's really happening every day in that role. But going back to the saturation thing, it's saturated in the sense that there's tons of people who are qualified for the roles. So you have to stand out and I did a I guess episode about that
recently. So one of the question, one of the conversations we're seeing in the chat is people talking about how many more interviews the process takes outside of education. Is that something that you're seeing, we're seeing more interviews or has it been pretty consistent? I've seen, so I've seen, I've actually seen more depending upon the level of competition that's, you know, for the roles they get thousands of applicants and they get very well qualified applicants.
They're going to put, it feels like they're going to put you through more some rigorous things to do, you know, and I've also seen like it's more common nowadays for them to give you a task related to the position to complete to make sure like, you know, people, I'm not going to say people do this, but they don't tell the truth all the time.
OK, So they want you to prove that you can do what you say you can do. So there may be a related task that's kind of abbreviated in the sense that it's not a full like instructional design project or it's just something where your project management, all that stuff. But I think it's, I think that people are really, they're really getting frustrated, myself included, by the number
of rounds. And what I see this as is, is that the company is fearful that they're going to hire somebody that is going to fit and it cost them money. Every time they hire somebody and then they leave, there's high turnover there. So pay attention to those things too. Also, they just want to make, they also want to make sure that they're getting the right people in there so that they do stay. So it's kind of it's kind of a double edged sword when you think about it.
I actually interviewed, I think it was about a year ago for a company. I went through 6 rounds and I was a finalist and they kept me on the hook because they had somebody internally they wanted to hire and it was terrible. I had to wait the whole weekend. I emailed, I emailed the lady, the recruiter. I said OK, so what's going on? You know what, have they hired anybody yet?
What's the word? You know, I was emailing them and asking them what was the status and she, it didn't message me till Monday morning, which we all know that causes anxiety in itself, the waiting period between the different interviews. And then they're like, no, somebody else. We hired somebody internally.
And that's another thing too to mention is that if you make it through all these rounds and you get to a point where it's like you're one of three or, or whatever and you don't get the role, they're probably hiring somebody internally. It's not you, it's not you. It's them. It really is. And once you get to that stage, it can be so, so challenging to figure out who to hire because everybody is so well qualified, so. You. Have an internal, you at least
have some security there. But I think what you're pointing out, we, we, we talk a lot about the anxiety that job seekers face, but there's a lot of anxiety in the company side too, because it's kind of like dating feels like a very big decision for a lot of people. There are a couple of interesting conversations going on in the chat. Some of these we're going to get to later, but I want to pull out, pull out one topic because it's something I was thinking
about too. So I get a ton of questions and I know you do too, about what presenting your portfolio looks like during an interview. And we're also getting a lot of questions around tasks specifically like are they done? Is it something you do beforehand or is it something they're asking you to do on the spot?
So can you just kind of talk about some of the ways you're seeing people ask you to prove what you can do are really because they're also, as you said earlier, they're not just assessing that you can do it, they're assessing that you're the one who did it and they wanted sure. How much of it did you do yourself versus AI versus your colleagues? Right. I think one of the things and I'm seeing what's going on in chat is about the, the fear of like they're getting work for
free. And I make sure right off the bat that if they tell me, good companies will tell you that this task, this isn't going to be used anywhere. This is simply used as part of the interview process and we just want to evaluate your skill set. So I would ask that because I have far too many times where people come back to me and they would say like coaching clients, Then they would say, well, they took my work. I saw it a few months later, which I and I am baffled by
that. So because a lot of companies make you sign an NBA and when you're interviewing or if you're you're getting past certain rounds because they're going to be sharing more and more about the company with you, make sure that just say that. And I love the fact that. And she put, wait, Amy put watermarking, which I think is important. Or you share it as a resource.
If you're sharing something out like a drag link, you make it unavailable after that or you make it available for a certain amount of time so that they don't have access to that anymore or after the interview. So yeah, people are tricky.
But again, the good companies, and I do want to mention this, Chelsea, because a lot of the companies and jobs you share, they will tell you the whole process and they will lay it out, apply for those jobs right away because that tells you something about the company, of the culture of the company. They have respect for the people that they're hiring, their employees. They want to make, they want to set you up for success. They want you to know they're
not keeping any secrets. They're very transparent. They want to know right away, once you know right away what you're going to be in for if you're going through the interview process. I've seen I've seen a lot more of those things mentioned in job descriptions lately than I have in the past too. Yes, I think there's been a lot more conversation around the the candidate experience, particularly when candidates are just getting, they're applying so frequently and not hearing back.
And so I think that that is having the an official back, the official impact of having recruiters and hiring managers think how do we improve this process? There's still a lot of work to be done, but that got those great job descriptions are one way that I see it as well. Absolutely. So let's kind of step back. So you, let's just say I'm going to interview you for a learning development position. How do you start preparing for
this interview? Yeah, you have to find something that definitely makes you stand out. And one of the things that I'll go back before you even get the interview, one of the things I mentioned in a recent podcast
episode, I'm doing like this. Ask Holly segment now where I do 15 minutes of like answering a question and I go very next episode, I go deeper into it. So one of the even before you get to the interview, one of the things I said to stand out is because we have this plethora of like all these different documents. We have portfolio, we have professional references, we have our resume, we have I don't know what whatever else you built the website you there.
There's just tons of stuff for sharing. But one of the things that everybody's sharing though, so you're not, you're just sitting and I did a TikTok about this. You're sitting in a pile of a pile of resumes. But how does yours become the shining star or how do you stand out? So one of the things I'm like, there's got to be something unique that you can do that makes you stand out. And one of the, there's two
things I'll share. The first one is making a video that you link to in your resume by yourself about what you've done professionally about. You know, my whole world revolves around learning and development. I don't know about everybody else or for people already in the position, but I drive past a billboard or I go to a coffee shop or I go to the local library. And I'm like, how do all these processes work? Like I think deeply about even going to a restaurant.
I think deeply about like, how does my work get from the computer to the kitchen to the kitchen? They know, you know, like, that's how my brain works. So I would do a video about like how learning development encompasses my life, not saying is my life, but it it touches a lot of different pieces. This makes you more human. The resume is a very static document. It's I'm like I'm reading your, you know, your journey.
It's great. You have a lot of experience, but I don't I want to know more about you then. So that's a good one. Keep it less than 3 minutes. Do something quick. Throw a throw a prompt in a ChatGPT. Get a quick script, don't make it like it doesn't have to be Hollywood studio performance and then include that link in your resume. Also, the next one, which is something I just started doing, which I really, really love and I'm sharing all my secrets now
is I asked. So you know, on LinkedIn, we have recommendations that people can, you can type, type recommendations for people. Ask for recommendations. I'm like, you know what? Those are boring too. Like I'm not going to read through like I know that you know, such and such copy paste of this from chat GBTI know they mean that they're authentic about me, but I asked people who are my most my best references. I said, can you please record a
video? Here's the script and it's a video recommendation about how they work with you, what they think of you, you know, working together. Obviously you're not going to pick people who are going to say something about it. You're going to pick people who are going to be honest and genuine and talk about the work that you've done. So those two things are going to make you stand out initially just before you even get the
interview. And then when you get into the interview process, I think people, as far as prepping is concerned, like the nerf start as soon as the interview is scheduled. As soon as you schedule the interview, you're like, Oh my God, I got, I got to practice, I got to study. It's like studying for the big test. One of the things I like to do
is find the company page. I like to see if they have some sort of strategic plan or they have like accessibility information or if they, you know, there may be things you can just tell right off the bat that there there's gaps there. And I asked them a question about something that's on my website. I prepare a question in advance and I say I have seen your business plan, I have seen your
strategic plan. I have seen what you're learning in development team is thinking about doing in the next five years. And I, I asked them a question about that and they're like, like she's, you know, she's done her research, but that also too gives you an insider's perspective into what's happening there. And like, if they don't have a plan, do you want to work there? Especially like, you know, it gives you information too.
So I was saying prepping for the interview, find something that you know you can talk to and find common ground when you're in the interview. But on the other side of that, I like to encourage people to be confident because you are assessing that company in the interview just as much as they're assessing you. Like, I know we all want money. I know we want to make millions. If you want to make millions, don't go on L&B because it's not happening. There's no sales going to sales, right?
But we're doing this because we have some, some sort of passion about it. So really just make sure that you are not putting all the responsibility. Like, I just need this job. I'm just going to take it because far, far too many times. And Chelsea, I know you've heard these horror stories. People have taken the role and they hated it and then they were jumping again because they just took the role That was now don't get me wrong, there's bridge
jobs. You know, there's things that you can do is you can have a job for like one to two years, stuff like that. But I want people to be confident, like especially educators, because we come out of the classroom with all this trauma that we have to deal with before we even jump into something new. So be confident of yourself and be like, like, what would you
ask somebody on a first date? Like, you know, I want to know if they're like a crazy cat person not in Chelsea, you know, like I want to know, I want to know like, what are they see in the future? You know, like, think of the questions you ask somebody when you're on a first date. It's different in your 20s than it is in your 40s. And that's goes the same for like jobs too, because you're looking for different things at those times in your life. So confidence is key. Absolutely.
One last thing I'll say is that I saw like some questions that were coming in about the STAR method and like writing down stuff and answering questions, and we'll get into that. But I would just say think back in all of your roles and just have prep situations you've been in and have those ready to go. There's nothing that says you can't look off a piece of paper
in an interview. There's nothing that says you can't have it up on the screen as a prompt like I scripted out for this particular presentation. Just I have notes. So I just remember everything. So like certain situations on Amazon where I work with difficult SMEs, or I work with difficult faculty in higher education or something I built from scratch or something. I influenced something, you know, something that I changed about a process. So have those ready to go.
Then you won't even have to think. Write down the keywords of the situation so that you just remember it. Indeed. And I also, one of the things I'll, I'll kind of echo there is people get really stressed when something goes slightly wrong in an interview or they think I answered that question poorly. I've interviewed people who have bombed a single question, but they've been fantastic everywhere else and they we pass them along because we're really focused on everything.
So I think a lot of times that confidence you were talking about and being able to really relax and say I don't have to be perfect, I just have to be human and really communicate myself. That authenticity and that confidence gets you everywhere, if I'm being honest, like we're just not nobody that works in the company is perfect. Perfect doesn't exist. Like they're, they're absolutely 100% looking for the Unicorn. And I'm like, if you have like 50 to 60% of the qualifications,
apply for the role. People are already deterred by the fact that they're like, well, I don't have this or I don't have that or I need to go and then learn articulate real quick. No, that's not the case. You need to just apply anyway. Apply anyway. Particularly because there's so much boilerplate and they're like, you have to have it, but then the job is working with PowerPoint slides. Hey this is way beyond this is
like I got this, this is easy. Yeah, definitely trust the job description, but don't believe it. I ask the questions. You need to ask the questions. Exactly. And this, I think a lot of this is really geared towards doing your research and personalizing how you approach an interview for each company. And it's a lot of work, but when you get to the interview stage, that means they think you're qualified.
You really want to show fit, you want to show engagement, you really want to differentiate yourself. Exactly. That's how I started with. So one of the things that I wanted to talk a little bit about is some of the differences between corporate and university
interview processes. And the reason I wanted to talk about this is for those of you who are teachers, corporate or sorry, corporate, higher Ed can often be a great bridge job to get into corporate because a lot of times the higher Ed, higher Ed companies, the higher Ed organizations are looking for people I'm. Not going to You're not wrong, Kelsey. That's also true.
Yes, they're there. Yes, there's a lot of money in there, but so these these higher Ed companies are looking for relevant skills, whereas the corporate is often looking for the relevant skills and some business experience. So can. You talk a little bit about. How your experience has been differently?
Yeah. So higher education, like you're saying, is a great bridge into first somebody coming out of the classroom because higher education is built on pedagogy, adult learning theory like you, you know those things already. You're aware of those different types of theories and modalities. And it operates like when you're in a classroom, you're you're working with people in the classroom. You're just not at the forefront
of the classroom. You're not the you're not the teacher you're going to be working to support. You're going to kind of be in the supporting role, like in a, in a play like the backstage people. So I would say with higher education and, and one thing I do want to be transparent about is notoriously higher education salaries are lower than in a corporate LND space.
So they're about 15 to 20,000 lower, unfortunately, but they're, they're significantly higher than teaching because teaching does not teachers do not get paid, but they should be paid in our culture, in our society. So higher education, like I said, it is a good jumping off point, but don't expect that you're going to be jumping like, you know, thousands of dollars in salary range, but it's a
comfort area. So it's an area that, you know, it's an area that you feel like you can grow in and you're going to work with other people who are former teachers. You're going to be in a culture where people who have transitioned out of education just so you know that I don't
know anybody. I mean, I know it's about to happen because of Gen. Z and like what's happening in higher education and our industry and AII don't know anybody that said I want to be an instructional designer when I grow up. That was their first job, I don't think. It existed it. Didn't exist. Yeah. So you're not going to meet people who say, I know, I've known since I was in 8th grade. I wanted to be an instructional
designer. Not, not at this point, but maybe later on, because now there's bachelor's degrees in instructional designs, which didn't previously exist. So you're among people who are doing the same thing that you're doing that are making the transition. Like I said, higher education is a comfort zone. But I also want to caution you, I'm a cautionary tear of higher education. Just like K to 12. It's got a lot of red tape. There's a lot of bureaucracy.
It moves notoriously slower than corporate. There's a lot of hoops you have to jump through to get things done. Innovation is often stagnated by that red tape. But like I said, you can make your own way. I always say, like when I get into a role, I'm like, what can I do here that's different than what everybody else has been doing?
You know, whether that's improving A ticketing process or that's, you know, transitioning from one Ed tech to a different software for for the school and laying out the plan. But higher education is definitely a comfort. And I would encourage you if you don't feel like you're ready to jump into corporate to go there first. Because higher education, while they are business, they're focused on learning. They understand learning. They understand what learning is.
Now corporate on the other hand, do we want you want to pause for going to corporate? Let's see. Oh, the high level politics then. Higher end. Yeah, huge. Oh my word, huge like you. It's it's so interesting. When I worked at UNBCI, ran for the faculty Senate. I had been there. I I'm an alum of there. I'm from Maryland and I was like, you know, I've been here a couple years. I know a lot of different people across campus. I'm just I'm going to nail the seat. Didn't get it.
Didn't get it. Like it was like then a couple weeks later the president emailed and he's like, somebody dropped out, but you're the next one. And I was like, it's very political and I just wanted to be on the Senate. To like have a voice for my particular area of the institution is crazy political. It's crazy cool. So one of the questions we had earlier was really specific about whether you're hearing anything hearing questions about AI, but I wanted need to think
about that question. But also kind of in general, what are the questions that you're hearing right now that you think might surprise people or the thing might not really be preparing for? I think one of the things that might surprise people is like how much AI is actually impacting the position right now. It's not impacting, it's a part of it, you know, like asking the questions around, well, like how do you use AI? What is your, what is your intention?
Or have you ever built a policy for your L&D group around AI? And what does that look like? I'm like, whoa, like I've never built like a formal policy around, you know, like when you think of a hire, they have tons of policies. Companies have policies, but just thinking about like this is what's going to be happening as AI continues to evolve and think about the things that are going to be impacting us as instructional designers or LND professionals.
And I think one of the things is like sifting through what's the truth as to what's the myth when it comes to AI and how it's going to impact these roles. So that's a question. I was like, I've kind of talked about policy before, but I've never formally made something, you know, talking about data a lot more. There's a lot more around data because in higher education and in corporate data is very important to prove that the outcomes that you're trying to
reach are happening. So just like business schools and corporate higher education has accreditation things. So they have to kind of prove that I think data is a is a surprising question to me too, because as an instructional designer, the only data that I've ever looked at is like for courses I've worked on or courses I was teaching. But now you're looking at it across the whole organization or the whole institution. And then they're like, well,
what do you do with that data? What if the data is it's not performing? Then they asked you, like somebody said something about the multi stage question, like what do you do if the data is showing that you did the screen experience and it's not working? What do you do? How do you shift? How do you pivot right away? That that stuff makes me want to cry because I'm like, how do you
prepare for that? It's just, it's like, it's like you just, you know, you just have to take a deep breath and take, take one of those scenarios that you wrote down and try to answer the question as best as you can. But those ones intimidate me. They intimidate me for sure. And they're getting there. They're just shifting. It's not like, OK, well, tell us about you. Well, tell us about your experience. Well, tell us, you know, let's go through your resume.
It's not like that anymore. And I know you've been on the interview, you, you've interviewed people before too. And some of the questions that came in before our session were around like what happens when you get faced with one of these questions? But from the interview side, a lot of times we're not looking for you to actually have the answer. We don't necessarily. You may not have written an AI policy, but we want to see how you think what is what is the way you approach that and
unfamiliar scenario? What is the way you approach policy development? And so a lot of times if you can't answer the civic question, really turn it into thinking about your process and talking about what what you do that's
similar. Because if you're pivoting, people know you're pivoting and they're going to be they're not necessarily going to be expecting you to answer the question the same way that to people who have already worked in the field answered it. So one of the things I think is most of the time the interviewer is on your side. They're not going to have called you in unless they're actually really interested in hearing from you. Exactly. You're exactly right.
And you know, I think we put too much weight behind this, this whole process. And that's what really does stress us out about especially teachers there. I know there's a lot of educators in the room and you're like, I can't tell you how many teachers I've come across and they're like, well, I'm not going to include my teaching experience on my resume. I'm like, why? Well, obviously we've seen some companies names that remain unmentioned, but like we, we don't hire former educators
versus stupid on their part. But it's like you're thinking about it in a way like, Oh my God, that, you know, like I've been in the classroom for 20 years. This is all I've ever known. Like, and now I'm going to step into something new. It's definitely, it's definitely a transition and there's a lot of different things you have to go through to deal with that transition. But look what you did for 20 years. Look what you did for 10 years. Why wouldn't you honor that
experience on your resume? Why don't you honor that experience in talking about the processes that you did in the classroom? Like listen, planning, unit planning, creating assessments, activities like, you know, dealing with the students and classroom management, like project management is a part of part of all that data you had grading. That's data. So thinking about all those different things.
So there's been an interesting conversation going on that I've been partially following, and it's a good question that I don't have a great answer for, so I'm going to throw it on to you. So one of the things I hear a lot of times from people who are a little bit older than me, So Full disclosure, I'm in my mid 40s and I'm really thrilled to have 20 years of experience because I'm like, yes, hi, I'm
now finally. But then we get people who are, you know, they have an extra 10 years of experience and they start to really get nervous about the job discrimination. There was the work day lawsuit where they were actually blocking people who were certain age, which is appalling. And I can't wait for the discovery. We're going to find so much out. But from from a practical standpoint, the more experience you have, you're really bringing in a lot of knowledge, knowledge and expertise.
But the question is, is there that bias? And if there is that bias, what are some strategies people can use to combat it? Yeah, don't apply for entry level stuff. That's one. They're gonna be really biased towards you if you're applying for entry level. So cuz you're not entry level, they're just going to. It's not going to have anything to do with age. It's going to have to do with your experience. I mean which can be correlated with age, but don't apply for entry level stuff.
I tell people coming out of classroom when you have so many years experience like you are definitely mid to higher. You're in the mid, the higher range, and you should be looking for roles. You should be looking for leadership roles. You should be looking for roles that are like have senior in the title or director in the title.
You know, and I, I know people are going to say, but I don't have any experience in instructional design, but there are things that you can do to prepare yourself for these positions, like using some of the resources I share. We're just talking to people like in in the roles.
I would just secure you from applying to entry level roles thinking that you have to start over because I think people like if I apply for an entry level role, people will probably I would, I would expect them to laugh right now. I would expect them to be like, I don't understand why she did this. She must be really desperate for something. But again, it goes back to honoring that experience. And I've had plenty of people, sorry, my voice is kind of getting after the work day.
I've had plenty of people tell me that they found great companies, some of these smaller companies, the ones that you post about Chelsea that have honored their teaching experience and use their experience there to propel them into these leadership roles. So maybe you don't start as a senior, but you might start in a mid level position and then like a year later you're in that director role because you've learned things. Yeah, a lot.
So if you don't want to manage people like a senior instructional designer, you may or may not be managing instructional designers. But if you don't want to manage people, then you're going to limit yourself to just like the, the mid roles that require no supervision or manager experience, which I totally get. Managing is a lot like you're just managing people. You're managing people all day long and like you can't get any of your work done.
I I totally get that. But you can find stuff that's, you know, you've had a few roles out there on on Skip that have been like director of professional services, I think was one of them. And I posted a director level rule today that I'm pretty sure didn't have management. Experience. Yeah. Like, like they don't, it's kind of like being like ACEO, like a CIO, like a chief academic, like you're in a very top level
position. You're not necessarily C-Suite, but you're, you're above to where you have people who are doing the managing. You're just kind of delegating and you're paying attention more to what's happened at the top. And then you're sharing that information out with the rest of the people that are working with you. But yeah, there, there are some roles where you can be at the top level and you're not managing people. You're gonna have to interact with people.
I'm not gonna lie. You're not gonna be a hermit. We're not an IT. We're not gonna be a hermit center. It's sitting behind the computer. You're gonna have to work with people. But I got away from that question a little bit. It's more like what was the initial question. Yeah. Well, I think we covered it well.
We were initially talking about the whether people like age discrimination, but I love that advice to not apply for entry level roles because a lot of times we get focused on the job description saying tech skills. But I noticed a lot of the roles I post actually frame it a little differently. They will say looking for adult learning experience and that's a real clue. But that's a great job for you to apply for. So I would definitely, yes, there's definitely age discrimination.
There's no way we can say there isn't. But also don't sell yourself short. I love how you're saying value your experience because. There's a, there's a, there's a whole episode I did on, on where I did it by myself because I was, I was feeling like you'll notice that I'm kind of like Taylor Swift. Like when I'm feeling something, I'm doing a podcast episode about it. I'm writing about it.
I'm like, so I did an episode recently where knowing your worth and your value, because oftentimes times, and I will say this to former teachers, we sell our shelves short because we think we don't deserve it when we actually do, you know, like especially being a woman in this industry, being somebody who's worked in corporate with Amazon with I think one time I, I looked at our leadership, it was all male. I was like, what is going on here? Like we need a, we need a gallon here.
You know, we need somebody else, somebody different, some diversity, but I knowing your worth is something that comes with like moving away from the imposter rendrum. You're going to have it. It's not going to go away completely, but knowing that you need this salary to beat survive. You need to put away some from retirement to sustain your current lifestyles. Like the confidence is key. And I think that's one of the things that resonates with people is like, I'm very
confident on the screen too. Like I have applied, like people say, I've applied to hundreds and hundreds of jobs and I've, I've, I've done that too in recent months and I have gotten, I was like everybody does. I know this role is for me. Like I'm going to get this role because I have all the experience necessary. And guess what? I got a rejection e-mail within 30 minutes.
I know it's an ATS system, but confidence and knowing your worth, please don't, please don't sell yourself short because we don't, don't get to do this again. We don't get to like, I don't want you having to jump into a rule that you don't like or you're not getting paid enough and then you're like, oh, I have to find a second job or most of us do have different side hustles and things like that.
And I think that one of the things that I think I'm kind of following the conversation here, we often think hiring managers don't understand that because we're not getting interviews. Going back to something Holly was talking about earlier on, when you're any time you're interviewing people, you've got about 50% of the people who apply who are halfway qualified
for the position. So a lot of times they're not making the decision about, oh, this person has teaching experience, I don't want to hire them. They're making the decision of I've got 5 people who have this experience that I listed as a preferred experience, so I'm going to start with them. So one of the things with imposter syndrome, don't say just because I'm not getting results, it means that I'm applying to the wrong jobs.
Keep up on until a lot of those stretch jobs because you're going to find the right 1. And I think Holly's advice to focus on the smaller companies spot on. I was talking to someone, she was a teacher a couple of years ago. Now she's sales director and she, you know what she's doing, She's saving roles for teachers. She's like, this role is only for teachers. So there are a lot of people in the industry who are trying to help people transition as well, so.
We're all in. We want, we want more of us in here because it's making the sector better, whether that's corporate, higher education, government, like you're here. We want to bring other tiers on who are ready for something different, but still make a change because teachers have, they have this crazy, I don't know, it's kind of like nurses like you do the show because you have something innate in you that teaching gives you and that you want to give back and you
don't expect anything in return. And that's kind of like what LND is. Yes, I agree. And one of the things I found, and that we're seeing it in this chat too, learning and development, is we are the kind of people we get together and somebody says, oh, I'm looking at this and they're like, oh, I can help you with that. And yeah, you get all these resources. And it's really a beautiful thing. Like I can't even keep up with the entire job. So it's wonderful. So we are running into a little
bit of the end of this session. So what I really do is ask you one final question and then if there are some burning questions, we haven't gotten to you because again, I've I've definitely missed some things in the chat. Throw a couple of burning questions and and we'll try to get at least one or two of them. Yeah, I I noticed one right away. I just want to point out the recruiters and the hiring managers. The recruiters don't necessarily know instructional designer
learning and development. Most of the recruiters you're dealing with are just recruiters. So don't think they know about learning development. OK. So don't assume that we have like they know anything about the role or what you're going to be doing. And you know, we can talk about recruiters another time, but there's some good ones and there's some bad ones, just like going on dates and stuff.
But don't put all your like all the recruiters going to, you know, the recruiter is like the key to everything. No, it's going to be you. So I just want to mention that. Yeah, and recruiters are screening. So what that means you want to be able to say, oh, you're asking a question about my adult learning experience. Let me tell you about my adult learning experience. Right now it's very transactional, yes.
So the question that I really want to ask is I have been hearing a lot of really bad stats lately. And one of them is that 70% of people get jobs through networking. And I, I, I question the 70%, but I also think some of it, yeah, some of it is like, what are we defined as networking? So the reason I wanted to ask you this question, Holly, is that you have this extensive network. So you know everybody in the industry and you have this fantastic learning and
development podcast. Everyone is listening to you and you have a huge network. You also have like 50,000 LinkedIn dollars. So I'm curious whether or not for you you're thinking, yes, networking is how I get a job, but it sounds like you're still applying to jobs just like everybody else. So tired about how networking how you approach. Networking. First of all, I want to say that that network was built Bloods 1 tiers 50 to 50,000 over the past five years.
There is no is not easy to network. However, when I think about like this whole process is like we're all human. We all have to connect with each other and know different things and know different people. And the one thing to me that hasn't changed in any sector through the application process or looking for roles or different things is that you have to know somebody to know somebody. That is a thing now. I don't think it's 70%. I can't say that for sure.
I think it might be a little bit less than that. But I will say that if you know people, there are things, think of it like this, This is how I think of it. Like think of Zillow, like the real estate platform. There are houses that are pre market that you don't even see come onto the market. So there's pre market jobs. Like I had somebody post something in a group that they hadn't posted on LinkedIn yet looking for contract IDs. So there are those types of things.
So you want to know where to be to get those get into those situations. I'm not saying that's the only way to get the jobs. And then you of course, you have the houses that are for sale, the jobs that are like everybody, like what's on Chelsea site, what's on LinkedIn, what's on on deed or whatever. You know, whoever you follow out on LinkedIn world that does the job posting and like you see all the different ones and every those are all up for grabs for everybody.
But also too through networking and having conversations with people. I had somebody tell me recently they said there's going to be an upcoming like role, you know, you know, be on the lookout like I'm saying that pre sales stuff, you know, would you be interested and possibly applying
for the job? So if you've worked in previous positions that might have like an L&D feel or touch, I could go back to those people and be like, has anything opened Or do you think is there a possibility that I can do some contract work with you all? Because it doesn't just come through like knowing the person. And Chelsea and I were talking about this previously before we started the session about coffee chats. I don't know how I feel about coffee chats. People ask me for coffee chats
all the time. I started my networking out doing that and it worked really well. But now it feels like something that's transactional and people just, they either keep asking for more free stuff or they ghost me, or they're not really. They don't really read my LinkedIn or they don't know me. And that's the thing too, when you're networking, you should definitely do some research from
the person. I've had people come in and think that like I worked before I even worked in marketing, that I was a marketer and I'm like no, did you or that you're hiring or that I'm hiring? Yes, or that I'm hiring yeah. Or that I have some tie to these roles. So I think networking is important for you. Linkedin's got a lot getting a lot of bad, getting a bad reputation lately. I don't know why L and DI don't feel like we're there, but maybe in other sectors you are.
So you definitely need to know somebody that knows somebody because we're so giving and we share so much information with each other that there's going to be a job where you're going to be like there haven't been 1000 people that apply to it. It's just going to be a small company that uses a Google form to express your interest or to apply for the role. So that's my take. Yeah. And I think I agree with a lot of that. I think we can also think about networking.
Somebody was talking a little bit about this, the cold, the cold messaging. A lot of times creating a conversation in the the comments can really be format networking. And then you know, you build relationships. Like actually, I think that's probably how we started chatting and then we started chatting in person. So thinking about networking not as this big task. I don't have to have a 20 minute coffee chat. I just have to make a connection.
I think that's a great approach. Yeah, don't go into LinkedIn like, you know, like so many people and I say this like we don't have we don't necessarily have connections or ends to the jobs we're posting. We're kind of we're sourcing
them. Some people go I'm interested, I'm like, well then apply, you know, or they, they, they put they either message you directly I'm like, can you review my resume and they're asking for free services or they're like they put their resume in the comments and they want people to you know there's there's certain places for those things there's certain groups and things that you can do that and that's not in the comments section of somebody who applies for.
Well, I do love seeing it though, when somebody posts a role in LMD and then people are like, I'm interested, I applied. I can't wait to talk to you. I love that. I love seeing the attention around like what a job gets because that's just getting more and more qualified candidates. But don't be like, I'm interested. Here's my resume. What should I do to fix it? Or, you know, interview me now, like that kind of stuff.
People are, people are so bored. There's a there's a certain set of rules you have to follow to kind of get into the network. Well, it's like what you said earlier with your video, you want to see the person behind it. And so when you see that comment, you're getting to know the person behind it, but add something to that comment, talk about project you've done or something like that. That really gets them excited. Oh, excellent.
Tony, I posted a couple of director roles, but I, I, I wish you luck with all of them. So last word, Holly, I would have a broad open-ended question. What do you think is the final word that you would say about interviewing? We've talked about so many different aspects of it, everything from the emotional side to some of the tactical strategy side. What do you want to close with? I really just want everybody to remember that you're more than just a piece of paper.
You're more than a portfolio, You're more than whatever project you did in the past and failed at. To me, like when you're looking for a new job, it's because you've hit a point where you're either, no, I don't want to say bored, but you're looking for more of a challenge. You're looking for something different that is going to make your life better. And I want people to know that you are so much more than that. Those pieces of papers and those
professional resources. And I'll tell you this, I have gone through resumes and been on hiring committees and I have picked people like this is going to be the top candidate from the resume. And guess what? They were terrible. They were. Terrible. So that piece of paper doesn't necessarily say who you are. Everything in your power. Get those video recommendations, do a video yourself. Step out of your comfort zone. You are worth it.
You are 100% worth it and you should not settle for anything less at this stage. Many of you at this stage in your career, you deserve something better. And if you talk to me and Chelsea, we will tell you where to go. There are other places like you can find roles. Create like the last thing I'll say is create opportunity for yourself. Don't rely on the corporations and the powers that be to make you think that you need to have a job in in certain areas.
Create your own path like I create. I've created roles like the director of growth marketing, Shawna created that just for me. Like I didn't do anything that wasn't a posted role. So please, I know you're worth you are more than just a piece of paper and go for it. You got it. And you got it's a fantastic way to end Beth. This is Holly's Holly's podcast that I popped up. It's the add up learning and development. Here's their Yeah Add Up learning and development podcast.
Yep, excellent podcast. I was aware I was missing, so that's OK. Yeah. So I love all of these comments that we're getting. I'm glad people have found this useful. I love listening to Holly and I seriously, I always write things down because I'm like Holly on this. There's more. I mean, we could probably do another one of these, if I'm being honest.
Well. We've got a bunch of requests for for them and also for a couple of just just asking questions and which is nice because it means less prep for us and we can still add value. Happy to jump on and do AQ and a just the whole thing like a radio show. Yeah, I I like that approach. So we will definitely keep that in mind as. You're welcome everyone. Have a great night afternoon. Yes.
So for those of you who are asking about the recording, as soon as I hit stop on all this, an automatic e-mail goes out. It's beautiful. I love automation of the recording as well as some of the links that we shared too. So you'll get Holly's LinkedIn, you'll get my LinkedIn. And in particular, I can't remember now what I wrote, but I think I shared each of these links on there. So cool. Great.
Thank you all for coming and we really appreciate you spending your evening with us. All right, I'm going to hit pause. Good night. I'm so I'm going to turn off the session, but then we're still audible. I learned last time. OK, we have to go off the stage. Oh wait, you go Aza, how you do it? Oh, but then we can't talk to each other, right? Right. This is a new system for those of you who are watching this at any rate, I will say thank you Holly and have a have a lovely
night too. I'm going to yes. It is like the after park. Yeah, where this is the after show where we really get into the the good stuff. Exactly. All the secrets. All right, so I'm going to end it and then I think it's going to kick us all off. So have a good night and good night everyone else. That's a wrap for today's episode of the Ed Up Learning and Development podcast.
I hope you picked up some inspiration, strategies, and maybe even a spark of motivation to take with you on your own journey. If you enjoyed this conversation, don't forget to subscribe to our show so you never miss an episode. And while you're there, go ahead and give us a five star rating. It really helps more people in the L&D community find us and join the conversation. Until next time, remember my motto. Speak it, build it, land it. Thanks for listening and I'll
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