Welcome back to the Add Up Learning and Development podcast, and welcome to Season 6. I'm your host, Holly Owens, and I could not be more excited to kick things off with the true legend in the learning space, Doctor Carl Kapp. Carl has been inspiring educators, instructional designers, and learning professionals for decades. And in this episode, he takes us all the way back to where it started as an instructional
design intern in the 90s. His journey is a powerful reminder that everyone starts somewhere, and through action, curiosity, and community, we can all shape impactful careers in L&D. We dive into his philosophy of action first learning, exploring why bridging, why bridging theory and practice matters more than ever, and talk about the importance of saying yes to opportunities, even the
unexpected ones. This conversation is packed with insight, warmth, and real talk that will resonate whether you're just starting out or have been in the field for years. Let's dive into this inspiring episode and kick off season 6. Here's my conversation with Doctor Carl Capp. Hi, we're ispring, an international team of e-learning enthusiasts who help more than 60,000 clients across the globe succeed with better online learning.
Our two flagship solutions are ispring Suite and ispring Learn LMS. Ispring Suite is an intuitive, all in one authoring tool for creating engaging e-learning content, and ispringlearn is an innovative online training platform for onboarding, upskilling, and certifying your teams. We also provide tons of free resources for aspiring and experienced e-learning professionals, conduct weekly webinars with top industry experts, and organize annual e-learning conferences,
challenges, and championships. We'd be happy to get to know you and pick a solution that fits your needs best. Go to www.icebringsolutions.com to learn more about us, download our resources and connect. Hello everyone, and welcome to another fantastic episode of Add Up Learning and Development. You probably hear the excitement of my voice because I'm super excited to have this guest. He's famous. We were just talking about it. He's a big deal.
He's a very humble person. You probably won't think that he's an influencer in the LND space and all kinds of different things. Carl Capp is here. Carl, welcome to the show. Holly, thanks. It's fantastic to be here and I always joke around, you know, it might be famous, but nobody buys AT shirt so. Yeah. How famous? Really. Yeah. Well, you know, I follow. I followed your work for a really long time. So I'm so excited to get into some questions, some burning questions that I've had.
But first, for people who don't know you, tell us a little bit about your journey, what you currently do, where you started and, and all the different things that you've just, I mean, I'll, I'll stop, I'll stop Band Girling. Just go ahead and tell us your story, please. So I got started way back, like in around 1997, I got a job as an intern at this company that did this thing called instructional technology. And I'm like, what is
instructional technology? And that started way before when that when I was young, I did, I was in a little theater and we were in a video, a safety video called Willy Whistle, like learning how to cross the street. And this company had produced that video for safety. And, and so I got an internship there and I'm like, what are you guys doing? They're like, Oh, we do instructional technology. I'm like, Oh my gosh, this is so
cool. It's a little bit of, I had an English background, teaching background. So it was a little bit of that. I almost had a psych minor. So it was a little bit of that. I'm like, this is great. So I was already planning to go to the University of Pittsburgh for counseling, and I'm like, yeah, this sounds so much more fun than counseling. And so I changed my major, my graduate program, which was apparently a big deal, but I did
it anyway. And then I got to University of Pittsburgh was taking classes and then I also position to take classes in the Business School, which like somebody's like, why is an HR person taking business classes? Like, well, if more these people took HR classes and more HR class people took business classes, we'd probably all be a little bit better off. So so that was that start. And then and then I was working for a software company and I had one foot in academia and 1 foot in corporate.
And so I wanted to switch feet. Everybody was like, hey, if you don't, if you get your doctorate degree and you don't go into teaching, like they're not going to let you in in two years because you'll be tainted by corporate. That's. Tainted. They didn't want like, you know, you'll be tainted by corporate like, well. You don't be out of function in education anymore. Right, Exactly. Yeah. I'm like, well, wouldn't it be
the other way around? Wouldn't I mean, So anyway, it's starting to change in that direction, but so I look for opportunities. I found one in Bloomsburg. I really like what they did. They had this corporate Advisory Council where they brought corporate people in every semester and, and the students presented to them a mock, a response to a mock RFP. And I thought, Oh my gosh, this is a great class. So I started working there and then I got interested in gamification.
I started publishing books about gamification and learning design. And because I wanted to share the knowledge, you know, that I was, I was able to work and research on. And so I started to, to do that and then started, got an opportunity to be a alynda.com instructor and, and, and now that they're LinkedIn learning. And then so it just kind of, you know, spiraled from there. I just was having so much fun doing stuff.
And, you know, I'm like, no one's going to ever hear me in little, little old Bloomsburg, PA. OK, well, maybe I should, you know, expand, break the four walls down. So that was kind of what I spent a lot of time doing. Oh my goodness. I love this journey. And I love the fact that you were like put into an intern program that was instructional technology. And you know what, just for the listeners out there here, a little bit younger than 90s did exist. There was instructional
technology. We were doing instructional design. We weren't just, you know, writing on with our pencils and paper and our chalkboards. So that's really an amazing journey for you, Carl. And I want to talk. I want to talk a little bit because I'm a higher education instructor too, and I teach instructional design courses. So tell us a little bit about that journey for you and how that has influenced and impacted the things that you've done for the LND space.
Because you know, you've spoke in different places, you're a consultant, you do all these different things. So how has teaching kind of maybe grounded you in? I always say I have to practice what I preach. So tell us a little bit about that experience. Right practice and defend. Right, because. Yes, Oh yes, yes, 100%. Athletic then, Steve. So like, yeah, Doctor Kaiser, even real, like how's that even work? Come on.
So it's it's great in terms of like always having to defend and think about it and research it. And but just to get back real, real quick, I was doing instructions on we, we literally had a green screen and one word. And the one question in the middle of the school was, so we've come so far. We have, we have. I'm so proud of us, yeah.
So the, the interesting thing about, you know, you know, teaching and that is, is exactly is you have the opportunity to do the research, to apply the research and then see the results. So I think that's that's kind of fun and interesting. But one of the things that, as you know in the field is sometimes the academic research doesn't always translate into practice.
And so a lot of what I've been trying to do is like, OK, well, this is what it really means for somebody who's in the field practicing because our, our students in our program, we, we, when we first started, it was very unique in that we had a corporate track as well as an education track. So a lot of academic tracks are, are focused on or we're focused on academics. And ours was a little bit different at the time was focused on corporate.
So the corporate people were very demanding, like I want these students to be able to come out here and and create stuff right away. They have to use the software. They can't, you know, know about the software. So we had, we spent our, my predecessor, Dr. Hank Bailey had build up relationships with all these corporate people and stuff, which was hard for me because when I first came in 1997, like he not purposefully, but you know, all his corporate
connections left with him. So I just spent a lot trying to build that. Yeah. So that was a couple. The network totally went away. Exactly. I'm like, what am I going to do? So I started, you know, that's why I started going to conferences and speaking to get, you know, corporate people to come back to Bloomsburg and, you know, talk to the students and
give the students opportunities. So, so, so it was kind of born a little bit of necessity to get out there and get people involved with our program and what we were doing. That's that's amazing and I love the fact that like, you know, you did, you did have that predecessor that kind of set things up, but I'm sorry that they took your network.
I think one of the most challenging things about about teaching, especially instructional design courses is like you have to like what you're saying about the real world. Like they have to be able to apply it right away. And like the theories and the knowledge and the frameworks are all part of that conversation. But putting that into practice into like, you know, putting my students into real world situations, like my students design an entire online training course.
And they are so like they're super intimidated by the fact that they have to design this thing from start to finish. And they're like, we have to use an LMS with an LMS. You know, they've taken the intro course and it's just, but by the end of the semester, they really feel like proud of themselves, like they've done all these things. And I could say that they've experienced something like project management in the real world. Yeah, no, that's that's fantastic.
I mean, that's the best way to do it. It it early in my career I wrote, I think one of my first academic publications ever was I did some work on using a problem based learning approach to teach instructional design and was really that that really helped to me bring like kind of what I was doing academically grounded kind of what one of the things so I don't want to give Hank about Hank was awesome. Like he gave me all his that my predecessor gave me all his
materials and everything. It's just that when he left, like his corporate people were like, yeah, you know, I used to do that. I don't they, they use that as an opportunity to to leave as well. But he gave me a lot of good stuff. But he had founded this class where where you form students into teams, where you give them, you know, a mock request for proposal where they have to respond and they have to. So all that was his problem based learning approach.
I'm like, Oh my gosh, this is a brilliant approach. And so, you know, I just kind of honed that through the years, but he was really kind of the, the, the founder of that like, and, and really set, I think the groundwork for that. But it was funny when I, when I interviewed, I had to give a lecture and I had mentioned Kirkpatrick's 4 levels of evaluation. And afterwards they kind of
laughed and they said what? Well, and they said, well, last time the students had, they had a presentation, they were asked about Kirkpatrick's and none of them knew anything about, we didn't know anything about Kirkpatrick. So I'm like, Oh my gosh, like that's like a common thing. So that practical approach that I had was valuable when I came into the Department of Bloomsburg back in WOW 1997. When you say the 90s, I feel like the 90s were like 10 years
ago. My gosh, I know, I know. 10 years ago and a million years ago, right? Yes, yes. And when people post those kind of like memes out on social media, like 1930 is the same. We're the same. We're close to 2050, like 1930 to 1990, whatever. And I'm like stop, like stop making me feel old, but that's that. It's fun. I love the 90s were great. Anyways, let's get into your new book. So you have a new book called Action First Learning, and I'm so glad you're here to talk about it.
Action first is a really powerful phrase. And when I think about that as an instructional designer, that could mean a variety of different things to me. So tell us a little bit about what does that mean in the context of learning design? And then I have a few questions about the book. Yeah, great. So, so to me, one of the things that has always so I I got started in games, games gamification because one day I was sitting in my, you know, basement playing video games.
It was like 3:00 in the morning while I was like. What video games were you playing? I was playing James Bond double O 7 Nightfire. Oh my God. Yes, talk about 1990, talk about the 1990. That's such a great game. And I'll tell you how much I did not know. Back then, they had a multiplayer mode and they had these things called AI bots. But you know, we're playing on fuzzy TV, so we call them the bots. We're like why are these OWL bots like chasing us? We have some, we have some OWL bots.
We have some owl bots chasing us now, certainly. Yeah, that's great. I love that. Yeah, that was really funny. So, so I was playing again, but I'm. But I'm like, well, why are people like, so why am I up till 3:00 in the morning playing this game when online learning it like puts people to sleep? So that was kind of the premise. So over the years I've kind of worked on that. And one of the things that that really I find sets a tone both in the classroom and online is
when people do something first. Like if I do a workshop and then halfway through I'm like, OK, let's do an activity. People are like, yeah, but if I put an activity, they're like, yeah, this is great. And the momentum continues through the whole experience. And I'm like what? Wait a minute, we should do that, be doing that online too. We should do action 1st. And so I wanted to put together this kind of almost more of a philosophy, right?
So gamification, the problem is one of the problems is if you were like, well, is that a game or gamification? Like I don't really care as long as you're involving the learner, getting them interested and, and kind of moving them forward. But there's a lot of discussion about, you know, when's it become a game and all that kind of stuff. And so I wanted to get away from that terminology and I wanted to
move toward action 1st. And so no matter what you do, whether it's not gamified, whether it's just an activity, you're helping the learners take action and there is act, you know, activity based learning. The problem with that is again, on the academic side is there's the sometimes definitions are so rigid. So I'll get in a discussion and somebody say, well, that's not really activity based learning or that's not really problem based learning.
That's not really I'm like, well, why not know? Well, according to such and such, here's the and so like, OK, OK, I get that we need that for research, but practitioners don't care. So I said, OK, let's pick a term that I think people can get behind that doesn't have any baggage associated with it. Or trauma or trauma, like negative connotation, you know, all the different things. You know, it's interesting, you know, you brought up a good
point. Like everybody tries to put some of these things into boxes that they're, but that's not how instructional design is. That's not how L&D is. Like it could one day it could be one thing, the next day it could be a different thing. Anyways, I digress. That's a great, I mean, Holly, that's such a great point because people do try to put it in boxes and then I think the
box limits. Like one time I did a blog post and I said, according to such and such research, the best time, the best length of the video is about 5 minutes. And this person, who obviously was a PhD student, said, how dare you give that advice? The researchers didn't look at 4:30. They didn't look at 5 O1. We don't. Know my goodness. And it's I'm like, Oh my God, like, come on. So yeah, wait till we test every second. And then we give advice to the practitioners.
I'm like, yeah, that's not, that's not. Happening yeah that's not it'll never get it'll never get finished and there'll always be like that's what research is though you're sharing, you know different you're doing experiments different ways or case studies different ways so that person. Obviously you're sharing it in process, right I. Mean, right, Right.
There's not an end monolith of knowledge that oh, we finally found it. It's you're working it out as it goes along, people change research elements. So I just thought that was so funny. So to your point, people do like to kind of box that in from the, from the research perspective, but the IT leaves the practitioners with what I mean, some practitioners are still doing learning styles. So, you know, we have a long way to go to get kind of the research out there.
So let's not, let's not hoard it until we're perfect. Let's get it out there. And so that was part of the impetus. And then finally, I was looking back at Action First Comics, and you know, it was. Super. I was going to say, I love that theme in your book. I love it. That played a large role as well. Yeah, and and also too, I want to mention that you have coloring pages. I do in the book. Yeah. So I think that's really, that's really cool. But I mean, that's not the
coolest part. So tell us a little bit more like what's what's the book? What's it about? Like how's it going to help us as instructional designers? Are those in higher education in the in the field? I definitely have already considered that this might be my next book that I'm going to use to teach with. Oh, excellent. Because of what you're covering and and how it correlates with the, the curriculum teaching, I
think it's fantastic. And you're such a, you break it down so simply for people to kind of understand these different learning experiences. So tell us a little bit more about. Thanks. Yeah, yeah. So, so the book is the 1st chapter is, you know, like kind of what is action first learning, what is some of the research behind it, that kind of stuff. And then I have 9 chapters that take a different action, first learning technique and then
explain the technique. Now, I don't think that there's only 9. There's lots more than 9, but you run out of book space. Run on a page, right? Exactly. So I'm hoping more people will kind of expand, but so for example, one of the chapters is on card games. And So what I do in every chapter is I started with an action first thing that you have to do. So when you read the chapter, you got to take action before you before you're allowed to read the rest of it. I don't know how that's
enforced. But you're modeling what you're preaching. I love it. Exactly. And then the next step after that is I have a case study of people doing that. And then I also say this book like, like I think I've written like, I don't know, like 10 books or whatever and every book. That you a lot. It told me a lot of books you read when I research how many books you've written. It's it's kept me busy. It's awesome. I, I mean like I'm you're my
role model. I haven't written one book, but I feel like I have all this knowledge to just put down. Well, I always say, I mean, if you have a class, you have a book. I mean, you could still, you can easily write, write a book, but one of the things that every time I write a book, you know, you always get criticism. So, you know, I wrote one book and said, this is great, but there's no case studies. OK, then I wrote another book.
This is great. Case studies are great, but there's no step by step instruction. OK, hey, this is great. But so there's no takeaways. So this book is also a combination of what I learned. So every chapter has a detailed case study. It has step by step instructions and it has this is good for teaching that. So card games are good for teaching discrimination where you sort one thing from another
and then I say when to use them. So every chapter provides kind of a road map of of what it is, why it's effective, why how people have used it and why you should use it and then how you can use it. And then finally, you know, the age of AII, put a little AI prompt in there.
So. If you're not familiar with AI or you do AI, you can copy that prompt, paste it into AI, and it can help you with whatever that action first learning approach happens to be. I mean, you have all the things in the book now, like nobody can criticize it. I mean, you know, if someone said, you know, if you're not, if you're, if you're not taking arrows in the chest, then you're not far enough out ahead, something like that, right? So yeah. I mean, you're always going to
take arrows and that's fine. And that's just what you do when you're in the position. And always, I always say take the best comments and disregard those, then take the worst comments and disregard those. And then the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. Yeah, absolutely. So one of the things I think that's like a struggle, especially in this industry is that people think that, you know, commonly trained is the answer.
So one of the core ideas in the book is like we should design for doing, not just like the the knowledge piece of that. So as as an instructor in higher education and an instructional designer, all these different things, what does that look like in practice to people? Cuz I think we have a lot of listeners on the show who are transitioning teachers and they're thinking about getting into instructional designs. So can you give us an idea of like, what does that look like
in practice? Yeah, I think the very first thing to think about is what does a person have to do? So, and part of the problem is when we talk to a subject matter expert, we usually ask them like, what do they have to know and what do you know and that kind of stuff. And I think we get the wrong impression. But what we have to do is what do we want at the end of the day? What do we want the person to
do? So if you think about like YouTube, for example, it's really like I had to change the shower head in my shower upstairs. I didn't need to know the history of the shower head. I didn't even know how shower heads are built. All I need to know is what do I unscrew in which direction? And then what do I screw back in, right? That's what I needed to know. So that also got me thinking
like, OK, how do we take action? So, so if you look at your classroom and same thing with learning objectives. Sometimes I call them learning objections because if you. Learn. Right. The learner goes, Oh, I already know how to do that. Like if you say today you will learn three ways to, and they'll go, I know four ways. This is a waste of my time. So I think let's start out like, OK, you're in a sales situation, try to sell somebody. Oh, OK, you forgot to say this,
this, this and this. So now we, we and, and going back to Malcolm Knowles, now the adult learner knows they don't know something. So if you put them in a situation where they have to apply knowledge, even if they don't, even if you haven't taught it before, because they're adult learners, they have some level of knowledge, even if they don't know it. And when they try to apply it, then they're more open to learning because they know they don't know it. And you've, you've created the
schemas and the pathways. And so start people out and it can be very simple. You could say, hey, we're going to learn about, let's say history. We're going to learn about the history of the Civil War. Let's put these battles in order. You're like, I don't know. And they're in cards and you sort them in order and then you can go by, OK, why did you think the Gettysburg was before, you know, Sumter Hill or something like that? Right now you can discuss it.
And now people go, Oh yeah. And now you're, you're exposing and, and, and, and remedying paradigms. And if you do it in a sales situation and somebody's like, oh, well, that's why sales doesn't work. And it's the whole idea of practice. Like I, I feel like people, especially in corporations, feel like they don't need to practice. Like I've been a sales person for 50 years. I don't need to practice. Well, how do you know you're any good? How do you know?
Yeah. And when this stuff, when it changes or using the same methods, I mean, people could possibly still be sitting down typing on a typewriter, right? Why aren't you getting on a computer? Yeah, that's, that's what I think about is in terms of like the what are they doing that's archaic? And like if you've done it for 50 years or if you've done it for 20 years, like are you constantly reinventing yourself and your methods to align with what's happening in the world?
Hello, AI, Hello. All the different things that are impacting our industry. You know, it's a good question to ask. Yeah, it's got to be and, and yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, we can have a whole other conversation on on how that industry is. Changing. Oh yeah, you're definitely coming back because this is, this is not enough time for me. Once Santa is a side note, I love your microphone, how it changes color. Oh, thank you. It's it's, it's a conversation starter.
That is very cool. Thank you. And it's really cool because one of the things you can do muted, so when it's not changing colors, that means I'm muted. And I love that because sometimes, you know, you're in the Zoom meeting or you're in the Riverside recording and I forget to unmute myself. So I just use that if I need to mute if something's happening. That's great. That's a nice feature. Yeah, well, let's talk a little bit more. Let's wrap up a little bit on
the book. So tell people like where they where can they access it? Where can they get it? Yeah, You know, we're gonna put all the links in the show notes. I want you to advertise it as much as possible. I'm gonna go and get it. I did a little bit of research about it, so tell us. So tell us where to find it. Amazon. I always say, you know, it's available where finer books are sold, but I think it's also not as fine books are sold, but you can get it.
So the place probably the best is ATD has a website. And yeah, the cool thing about that is there's actually an instructor guide. I love that. Downloadable items, yes. So go to ATD if you don't want to go there, you can certainly go to Amazon. That helps my Amazon numbers, but it's not the best. But and then Barnes and Nobles, yes, still around. And you can, you can go ahead and get the book there. If you, you know, follow me on LinkedIn.
I have a, a newsletter called L&D Easter Eggs. And I always think links and stuff like that. I did a post a while back and I'll repost it on on when when this airs on. I put together a curriculum of all my YouTube videos, LinkedIn learning courses, articles that correspond with each chapter of the book. So if you're like, hey, I want to know about digital card games, You can go and look at everything I've done in digital
card games. If you want to know about escape rooms, you can look at escape rooms. You want to know about creating an AI chat bot, you know you can go there. So I'm building out a whole playlist that links back to the book so that that can be helpful. I want, I mean, you got to have the book out there and all that kind of stuff, but you know, this kind of goes beyond that and helps people really
implement it and and. You're organized like you, you don't feel everyone like I like to take active like notes as I'm writing the book. But then you go and you organize and you give us all these these guides and things. And I love the fact that you design an instructor guide for people who you want to use this thing in their courses. That is like, that's golden within itself. So thank you for doing that. I mean, I, I don't know what I do without some of the books that I've read.
Like, you know, I, I really love design for how people learn. It's one that consistently and that's the current book I use. But just the guides and things are they're, they're so valuable. Yeah, the one thing I love about this field is everyone so giving and and you know, they publish everything and they're not keeping it secrets and you know,
that kind of stuff. And I, I think that's one of the things that makes this field from the academic and the, and the, and the professional side so, so invigorating because people are sharing and are helping and it's, it's a helping industry. I 100% agree with that. I don't know, I don't know how other communities are. I imagine they're not, they like to keep secrets, but we don't, we just share everything and if it's like it doesn't work, we'll
try something out. If it doesn't work, we'll point you to the person that can help you. Here's the expert like in action learning and, and all those different things. So I want to kind of as we start to wrap up the episode, I want to shift the conversation a little bit. Like I mentioned earlier, we have a lot of transitioning teachers that listen to this show and they're always looking for a advice from experts like
yourself about you. You're a consultant, you teach in higher education, you are a leader in this space, you're an influence in this space. So people thinking about leaving the education space, maybe stepping into a role saying instructional design or learning experience design. Do you have any advice that you could give them? Maybe one to three things like. Yeah. So, so one thing I would say is is create instruction online instruction like before you need to like start doing it.
So do it for nonprofits, do it for your kids school, do it for yourself, do it for your hobbies, whatever. Just get into the practice of developing online instruction and and presenting it. I think that's really important. The second thing is get involved with communities of practice like this one where you can get good information and good ideas and you know, there's all kinds of professional organizations. So you can, you can become a member of those as well.
And then the third one is you, you kind of have to. So this is advice that's counter like a lot of people that are are are self help people say say no to everything except your core goal. Like don't get distracted, don't say yes to everything. I kind of have the opposite. I like to say yes to everything like, oh, I've never done that before. Let me try that out. OK, well, maybe I won't do that again or yeah, let me try this.
So so I. Feel like you and I are kindred spirits there because I do a lot too and I don't. I don't, but everything kind of connects. It all connects. It definitely does. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, if you do it right or even if you just do it, it just connects. And I find, you know, if I, if I do something over here on the corporate side comes back to the classroom, I do something in the classroom, it comes back to my consulting, I come back. So. So yeah, those are my three
pieces of advice. You know, create instruction, even if somebody hasn't asked you to go ahead and join a community of practice and, and learn from the others and, and get solos from the others and then say yes to lots of different opportunities and, and implement those opportunities. And then finally, I would say ground yourself in the science.
There's a lot of people that are accidental instructional designers, which is fantastic, but they don't have the learning science to back up some of the decisions that they make. So even if you're an accidental instructional designer, if you're coming from an education background, typically you've had some training in pedagogy or some of the research behind teaching methods and techniques. So that's going to be an advantage as you move forward. There's tons of transferable
skills there. Then that's one thing we do talk about a lot is the transferable skills. Yeah. So thank you so much. Isn't by super fast for me. I'm going to have to have you back on so we can talk about some other things that that you're into and things that you're doing. And I want to let everybody know that how to access and get your copy of Action First Learning is going to be in the show notes. Please go out to LinkedIn World, follow Carl.
Everything's going to be there for you to find him. So easy. It's going to all be linked. Carl. Any final thoughts from you before we end the episode for the audience? So one of my favorite quotes is by Mario Andretti, and he said if everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough. So that's my piece of advice. I love it. I feel like I'm definitely out of control right now. Like I that used to give me like so much, I'm like, I can't control and nothing's going on.
Then I read that quote and I'm like, Oh my gosh, it all kind of makes sense. It all looks it's all coming together. Well, this is this is so much fun. I can't wait to drop this episode and make sure that if you're listening to our show, you're also giving us a great review. Carl, thanks again for being on the show. We I loved having you. This has been a great conversation. Thanks, I've had a great time.
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