#285 A Teacher's Perspective - Work Smarter, Not Harder! (part 3)

Hello and welcome to We're diving deep into AI's educational promise and pitfalls with two distinguished guests. I'm delighted to be joined by Paul V. Trump, Educational Consultant for Global Educational Consultancy in Egypt. And Ivani Higgins, Director of School Improvement at the Leather Sellers Federation of Schools. So welcome, Harvey and Ivani. It's really delightful to have you in.

Podcast studio today. And I'm going to get straight down into the questions here because I really, really would like to know a little bit about yourself. and what you're doing, your role in your organization. And then what's happening? For you, what are you seeing when it comes to AI's current presence within schools, your schools, your institution, schools you're working with? How deeply has it penetrated?

Are some people engaging, some people opting out? What are you seeing happening and what are you experiencing? Avani, to you first, please.

Hi. So yes, as firstly, thank you for having me. My role is director of school improvement and I joined here in September, ex head teacher, came in apparently because of Well, hopefully because I could do the job, but actually because I spoke quite a lot about how I've used technology in particular to reduce stress on teachers, actually make us more efficient. and how it's really helped me to do a lot of the jobs that we used to do.

with paper and pen and a calculator. So I got given the task of being in charge of the digital strategy. So we're a federation at the moment of three Uh three secondary schools with a sixth form and two primary schools. So there's there's five schools in total. And really what I've been doing since September is really trying to get the pulse of the school in terms of ed tech and AI and also do quite a lot of due diligence.

not just inside the school, but actually in the educational space. What are other people doing? And what, you know, where can we collaborate? Because it seems to me that we're talking a lot about EdTech and AI. But it seems to be pro proliferating at a rate that I can't I can't keep on top of. And so with any change strategy, you know, the the the sort of the due diligence stage needs to be really, really evidence informed and you know, talking to other people who have done it.

But actually what I've found is that there's not an awful lot of people that have put policy or strategy in place. There's a lot of discussion about what shall we do. And some institutions are a little bit further down the line than we are. So at the moment. In school, I've worked on an implementation plan which is taking into account, you know, the costs of making sure we've got the correct infrastructure in place. the costs of trying to get one to one devices for the student.

a lot of due diligence on AI and I'm sure we're going to talk about it, the implications of safeguarding. digital safety for the students and for, you know, how the staff use it and all the implications of that as well. I know that it's popular. I know AI is out there. I know that it's, you know, it's your phone's listening and You know, all sorts of algorithms are looking at what you do and sending push notifications telling you to buy this thing that you've only just thought of.

So it's there. And we know the students are also using AI. You know, we used to joke about how students are digital natives and they are ahead of the game, unlike some of us old codgers who are trying to catch up. So actually understanding how they are using AI to produce pieces of work.

and organise themselves in a safe way is actually a bit of a minefield. So I sound really negative. I'm I'm really excited actually about the possibilities that are there, but we are taking a very pragmatic approach at the moment. Just feeling our way, getting people to come and talk to us about what they've done and what the possibilities are, and then working on policies and processes so that we have a principled approach.

to our digital strategy, which I've, you know, I think it'll take three to five years before we're anywhere near, you know, some of the first markers that we want there. And it's really hard to do because we're gonna I'm sure we'll touch on this, but in in the educational space, there's a lot of initiative fatigue. Um, we're just getting over the pandemic and everybody being online and talking about the lessons that we've learned from the pandemic.

And now we're facing uh what seems like exponential growth in in the ed tech space and there's a lot of fear around it. So yeah, spinning a lot of plates, I think, is uh a a good summary of what we're doing at the Federation.

That resonates. so well with quite a lot of what I'm hearing. And I think it is really difficult. I think you're right. It's hard to keep up with the proliferation of AI. We find it hard and and we're working in this space all the time because there are so many changes and it's not just the development of the AI, it's the regulation around it, it's it's what people are doing.

And one thing that I've noticed is a real lack of evidence about the impact, which makes it very difficult for people to do due diligence as you've been talking about, Ivani. So I think Your approach seems very wise to me. I'm interested in so much of what you've said. But one quick follow-up question.

Mae'n gweithwyr yn gweithio gyda'r Dyrector o'r Dyrector o'r Dyrector o'r Dyrector o'r Dyrector o'r Dyrector o'r Dyrector o'r Dyrector o'r Dyrector o'r Dyrector o'r Dyrector o'r Dyrector o'r Dyrector o'r Dyrector o'r Dyrector o'r Dyrector o'r Dyrector o'r Dyrector o'r Dyrector o'r Dyrector You know, because it's hard to calculate what the actual investment is in the first place. So, what's your impression of the cost, both in times of

It's huge. Money and time, and of course time is money. Yeah. It's an unknown known in that We know, you know, that we are going to need to get the back end infrastructure in place. So we've been working on things like making sure we've got really solid Wi-Fi in the school, refreshing all the tech that we've got. It's ancient.

some of it. So it's got to be a rolling program of investment there and actually thinking about the shelf life of some of the things. You know, do we go to Google Chrome devices or do we, do we not? What are the implications of both? And then you know, in terms of digital poverty of our students, the Left Sellers Federation, we're in South East London, working in some deprived areas.

juxtaposed with some fairly affluent uh families as well. And so you know, there there there are so many considerations. And then of course against the backdrop of budgets where we have to manage all the things that society is throwing us at the moment, the send issues, you know, disadvantaged uh children.

rising cost of living, et cetera, et cetera. So trying to, I I used the term initiative fatigue earlier, but actually we haven't got a magic money tree. And what we're trying to do is sequence. what are the important things that we need to get in place right now. So I, you know, it's the infrastructure while we do the due diligence. And then it's going to be a very careful approach of what can we afford. as we go forward.

Interestingly, I went to uh a conference last week on AI where a group of people and I've forgotten their name and I will try and remember are talking about all the different ed tech pieces of software they use, for example, for data and working on ways to integrate.

the different things that we've all bought into in in a single point of truth that's going to help the Federation, which sounds brilliant, but my first thought was, right, what's that going to cost in order to You know, to get there. So I haven't really I think I've dodged your question, um, because what I'm saying is I don't know. What I know is that it's gonna cost a lot of money and we're gonna have to really carefully balance other huge priorities with with

trying to move into this space? That is a very good answer. I wasn't really expecting you to be able to say, well actually it's gonna cost me ten thousand pounds a month this year, or it's what you know, or or whatever, because I think it's it's too early to know. But I I really

like this approach, while you're doing your due diligence, you're trying to get the infrastructure in place. Because one thing's absolutely clear that when I'm talking to people those people who've got their technology infrastructure, but in particular their data infrastructure in order, find it much easier to leverage more impact.

from AI. So it makes perfect sense. Thank you, Bavani. That was really helpful. Harvey, over to you now. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself and what you're seeing when it comes to AI use? As I say, my background is over thirty years in education in the UK and and now in the in the Middle East. Uh uh I predominantly in the last

eighteen months I've been involved with setting up schools. So really at the at the sort of the foundational end of what Ivani mentioned where she is sort of a probably a few years ahead of where I would be um and and I loved have conversations around sequencing about pragmatism and

and the like and I I couldn't agree more with setting up those foundations properly. Um I I I g I got an interest but I thought, well if we've either got to go with the flow or we're going to be left behind. So I wrote a paper for my staff. over a year ago now and as I say it soon gets dated and subsequently has set up policy and tried to look at strategic plans. to establish something in those schools because where I am

It's slightly different in respect of uh I mean obviously the cost reson resonates across all of all of the countries that we're involved in. Egypt more so recently because of the financial crisis uh and the horrible uh financial inflationary increases in the exchange rate, uh, which has caused a a lot of spending.

that we can't do outside with external agencies. So we're even more limited not just by cash and and cost, but even even by the financial exchange. So for example, just something as simply is is trying to renew my Microsoft subscription for my family. That got rejected by my bank, even though it was sort of the equivalent to$70. Then they're not doing any extra foreign exchange rate. So for a school, that's just exemplified and magnified.

Um, so from that perspective it's difficult. So yes, I mean, I mean, there's that economic crisis post pandemic scenario that that is that is emerging. I I I agree with really everything Ivania said. Uh here it as I say there's a slight difference is the fact that our infrastructure our ed tech infrastructure isn't probably as strong and as advanced as other places.

Um, so what I'm talking about is is a real culture change in respect of trying to motivate staff. It's there. Certain parents and ch pupils are aware of it, but I don't think the awareness is as great as in the is the Western side of things where it has been much more prevalent. Upskilling staff, getting staff tuned into what AI can do. So I I I I d I've done a little bit around uh two two plat or three platforms, I suppose.

Um, Ross McGill's teacher toolkit um and and the the A use of AI and planning to I'm as I say to all my staff, let's work smarter, not harder. I'm a magic school trainer, which is more the American curriculum. And I've also got involved with a gentleman called Kevin at School AI, who's the deputy CEO. And he's open to they've just

got two million users, student users, and he's open to expanding his school AI to all curriculums. So it's been a nice conversation and being able to get in these in the into sort of these initial periods. So uh and and you know much of this also resonates with me as a safeguarding trainer. A long time ago, the CWDC, I I did a training course with them. So I've I've been able to safeguard train you know governing bodies right through to staff.

And I I I think, you know, it's it's the limitations, but it's like everything. If you put a sign up, don't walk on the grass, everyone walks on it. So if you say like some of the American schools have done, don't use it. We're not going to use it. It's just going to be a proliferation of everyone using it. And it's all going to be undercover in secret. So I think we we have to stay open. We have to stay open-minded. We have to move with the times.

So for me, the infrastructure I agree is vitally important and we've got a policy around it. So what I've tried to do to it's the upskilling of staff and students that has become more important as an emphasis for myself, just simply because They need to be aware of it. Because if we don't make them aware of it,

it's gonna be even harder to introduce them to as the technology gets more and more difficult or or more and more easy to use. I don't know. It depends how you look at it. But um I think that that's the key for me.

We've also got a limited sort of infrastructure and Wi-Fi and things like that here. So that does limit some of it. They did block Chat GPT when it first came out, and there are certain blocks on on restrictions on certain other avenues. However, you know the main ones are now a little bit more open, but we are just a little bit slower in in our uptake.

But no, I mean I I I I agree with what you it's about it's about RIT capability, it's about having a dialogue and it's about collaboration. And in the and the schools that I've been involved in, what we're trying to do is set up an AI committee. and have champions on that committee. We all have our our tech nerds in our schools and the schools I've I've worked with, but that's what we tried to do is is set up them and then let them champion it alongside

more of us following it and and sharing what is coming out. It's coming out so quickly and some of it is good. Some of it is pedagogically unsound, some of it is pedagogically very sound. I've tried to stay with the pedagogically sound aspects, hence teacher talk at school AI and and magic school. um have been the main predominance. And and as I say, the the buzz, the catchphrase or buzzwords for me are let's work smarter, not harder to the staff.

I agree. I think that's really important, Javi. And I I think your approach of setting up committees and sharing is so important. You know, I agree, you need to know. I love your, you know, don't walk on the grass analogy. You want people to walk on it, but you want them to tell you they're walking on it.

Exactly. Because if people don't tell you what they're doing, you don't know whether they're doing something within the parameters of what you've decided is acceptable for your organization. I think it's really useful for us to have your international perspective. Interestingly, when it comes to devices, the UK or England Has one of the highest ratios of device to students in the OECD. However, we also have one of the least

um evenly spread devices. So we might have a lot of devices, but they're quite concentrated in particular pockets. So we still got a lot of students without devices. So Yes, we do have more, but it's it's not evenly spread out. And I think, you know, that that weaker technical infrastructure does present a challenge. But I really applaud your approach to that of focusing on upskilling.

Because you're right, if you can build the skills, build the motivation, build the motivate, build the appetite in staff and students, then when they do get access to the technology, they're ready to go, aren't they? Do you find I I suspect you don't find reticence amongst the students, but you might find some reticence amongst the staff.

I think to answer your question, yes. Uh especially some of the older staff who who, you know, I've always done it this way and I'm not going to change, but I you know I keep saying to them, but but how you've done it takes hours. I can save you certain hours so you can have more time with possibly grandchildren, but family. Uh and I hence the sort of the the catchphrase and you know

use very often with me is is working smarter, not harder. And, you know, that's what I've sort of tried to embody for staff. Look, I can save you time. So Even if you haven't done it this way, have a look. You know, get whether that's, you know, just a simple form of MCQ and multiple choice questions or whether it's just planning, you know, have those ideas and annotate.

You know, you know, it we're we're not asking you to do much, but it'll do it for you. You know, you'll be able to sort of type in what you want, it'll do the objectives. Go make yourself a cup of tea, come back and annotate it. And that hours work where you've sat there trying to devise the objectives and and maybe some of the collaborative learning that you want to go on in the classroom or or the

uh adaptive teaching as it's now being termed as opposed to differentiation, then I I you know it it's it's it saves you time. And if you don't like it, then put your own ideas into it.

And as I said, you know, a as sort of, you know, with with an inspection experience as well, for me it's not about the lesson plan per se. It's about how you annotate and utilise the information that's coming. And I think this is the the fundamentals for me for the use of AI at the moment. It's, you know, let's use AI significantly, let's use it well. But let's adapt and adopt

our procedures to fit with the context of what we're using it for. Because what it what it will come out with not only as a hallucinations, but but equally it'll also come out with a lot of generic. That's fine. But let let's add the detail. Yeah, we've got experienced educators on the staff, so those come in Rydyn ni'n ei wneud ymwneud yngwneud yngwneud yngwneud yngwneud yngwneud yngwneud yngwneud yngwneud yngwneud yngwneud yngwneud yngwneud yngwneud yngwneud. I think that's a huge difference.

I think that sharing is so important. You're right. And I I always say to people, you know, think of it as a really fast, really enthusiastic and assistant, but you have to keep an eye on them and check their work a lot of the time.

Now both you and Harvey have mentioned safeguarding and as we often point out to people there is no risk free AI. Even the people who are developing these large language models, if we're thinking about generative A, I don't really understand how they work. We're seeing research paper after research paper coming out from universities, coming out from the companies themselves saying that they're discovering things about these models because they don't really understand them. So

It's a real challenge, isn't it, trying to navigate the risks. And yet we must do that if we're going to reap the benefits.

Thinking about safeguarding in particular, Ivani, you've mentioned it, Harvey's mentioned it. What's your perspective on how you're thinking as you're planning? And I I heard what you were saying about. you're currently doing due diligence and you're looking at infrastructure and kind of building your plan. But what's your thinking when it comes to AI safeguarding? Yeah, that it's a really good question and it it it's one of those things that keeps me up at night.

I often think of, you know, Asimov's iRobot, how what are the possibilities? And uh th that that's kind of the issue. Uh I sort of alluded earlier that we know that students are already using AI. Now at the moment in school we haven't enabled AI. And only staff Have access to it. And not all staff at this stage. Again, just really being pragmatic while we work out what's what.

One of the things that we are working on is this idea of digital literacy within the curriculum. And I've always been, you know,

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that gets them ready for the 21st century world. You know, it it's it's that sort of thing that people often say. But I've been unpacking with the staff what does that really mean? We are our job is yes to educate them academically but actually upskill them for life and they're going to be leaving uh into a world that's bristling with technology, you know, some of which hasn't been invented yet.

So actually these are these are skills, these are life skills, critical thinking in terms of digital technology. I worry, for example, if they're using AI to do all of their thinking, are they developing the neural pathways they need in order to think? Or are we sending

into a world where you won't have to think quite so much because the AI will do it. So these are all the sort of It it's not necessarily safeguarding I'm talking about here, but I'm sort of thinking more in the roundabout some of the worries

regarding AI. Also, uh, we so what what I'm getting at is that we're working on a digital character curriculum. And within that, will be, you know, the things that we talk about, how to keep yourself safe online, which they do through the PSH E. curriculum, but I think heavily needs re um looking at again and, you know, bringing in some of these issues that I'm talking about, but also

equipping them to spot bias. You know, I'm a history teacher. I we're always looking at the reliability of the evidence that they're looking at newspapers, articles, you know, did Stalin mean this when he said this? But actually I think a a huge part of our curriculum now needs to look at ed tech, AI, and whether it is safe to make assumptions from it. And so all of that to say is that what I'm talking about is alongside the dig uh the academic curriculum, we need a digital curriculum

whereby the offer is that we are getting them ready for that space. So are they are they IT literate? Do they have access to a one to one device? Have they been taught how to keep themselves safe online? Do they have the skills? um to think for themselves rather than relying on the AI. That's a huge piece of work.

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Uh uh I don't want to get into plagiarism, but there's also all of those things as well. Yeah, I mean I think you're right. It's really interesting to think that it's part of the curriculum. And I think there are some really important discussions to be had. You're right around bias, about what the technology can do, what the technology can't do. There's something else you said I think is also super important, and that's when you were talking about building the neural pathway.

Because a lot of the rhetoric, and we saw it really clearly with Apple intelligence. who described what they were going to be providing you with is the opportunity to do things effortlessly. Yeah. We don't learning doesn't come from being effortless.

It really doesn't. It takes strenuous mental effort. And I think there is a risk we won't build those all-important neural pathways, but also a risk that if we inappropriately offload our cognitive activity to the AI because the AI is always so keen to do it, isn't it? byddwn ni'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd

That's acceptable. You know, we look at what's happened to our brains because of the use of GPS and our memories because of the use of Google, for example. There's increasing amount of research in that area. Maybe we're okay with the navigation thing, maybe we're not. But we certainly need to think, don't we, about what we do let the AI do? Because once we stop doing it, we'll quite quickly evolve not to be able to do it.

So it's quite a difficult time, isn't it? So I think having it in the curriculum and having those meaty discussions sounds really important to me. Absolutely. And I think the other thing to say is that you know I we're of a certain age. And have grown up differently. You know, we we uh uh you know, chalk and talk. I've been doing this thirty two years now. I I I came to this point. differently to our young people. And so I worry about the

I I I can't find the word. I I I'm just worrying about some sort of brain atrophy where if if they're not using it. what what will happen to them. So that is so such a huge part of where we go. So it's bigger than safeguarding, but obviously online safety, using AI safely, is a big meaty area of discussion. And again, I haven't got, what I haven't got at the moment is somebody signposting me and saying, here's something we have developed. Would you like to come and work with us?

So that's where all the due diligence is coming in to grapple with with some of these issues. Yeah, that's so important. Really interesting.

You mentioned safeguarding as well, so I'm really how you said you were a safeguarding trainer. How can you encompass AI within that safeguarding perspective, do you think? Rydyn ni'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd. I I I it's very interesting just you know, hearing Ivanny and what she said. I I do think that creativity and analysis, the top end of Bloom's taxonomy.

can be utilized exceptionally well using AI. I don't think the creativity would be lost. And this is why the teacher upskilling and then learning to use it and not be reliant on it. Is is is fundamental, I think, to the success of it. You know, brainstorm the class first for ideas, and then let's get that prompt right. Rydyn ni'n ymwneud â hynny'n ymwneud â hynny'n ymwneud â hynny'n ymwneud â hynny.

and some different ideas. And at that point it's then choice. So I think a lot of the creativity, the analysis is there in choosing the right the the right pathway. And the evaluation will then come through the implementation. So I I do think the creativity will remain and then comes down to how we utilize and and share. how we use it and and not just use it as you know something that is just there or that'll make our life easier, but actually use it sort of, you know.

not to and it's never intended to replace us and that there's been lots of research and studies saying that you know it's not there to replace us actually there to motivate and and maybe think of aspects that you haven't thought of before. Yeah, it's music to my ears. I think it's there to we should see this as a moment when we become more intelligent because we have this technology.

And we've had to do it with the Gen Z population. I mean we're having to look at the ways that they're going into the workforce. We know they've got short attention spans, but we also know that there's mo lots of multitasking where they can do two or three things at once. So We we've got to adapt just as is they have w with you know, w with what we've had to do in in the last ten years. And like Ivani, I've I've got over thirty years p experience.

So I mean between us we've all come from it almost the same way and we're having to just roll with the chimes. But I think from a safeguarding perspective, I mean a lot of it is coming out through keeping children safe in education. That's just bit that had a revamp last year with regards to making sure your DSL uh was more aware of the if you like the the

the barriers to stopping infiltration and and how your system works within your school. But and and there's a slight update in the new twenty twenty four version whereby, you know, we're gonna have to look at AI and AI AI is now part of what they're what they're talking around when it comes to images and and abuse and things like that. And they've actually now started to insert the word AI.

uh to be recognized. So I I think from that point of view it's there. We will be led partly by policy. I mean, because we are even with an international school, many of our schools are CIS. Or Cambridge related. Uh even with if you go to the American schools in Niask, they are the stepping stones of CIS, Council of International Schools. So

there's an awful lot of reference back to the UK because the UK seems to be driving a lot of the policy around that around the safeguarding alliance and the like. Yes. So I I I I do I do think safeguarding will be shared with us. But I think we've got to put those. in in part put the in place now.

So it's not a surprise, you know, making sure that the and that it goes back into the children's education as well as the staff's education of this. I mean, I've used common sense out of Harvard and Project Project Zero. And they really are s they are switched on, as as are sort of some of the Microsoft wellbeing EQ that uh Vanya mentioned earlier, the Microsoft monsters, uh, for your for your self analysis about how you feel.

So I mean I think there's plenty out there. I think it again it comes back to what I said earlier about making sure that we don't give them such a breadth of information about the number of tools that are out there, but actually just hand pick those we think are pedagogically more sound. Yes, it's subjective. And and then, you know, if you've got a little committee running, they'll come out and we'll agree what we think is best.

And I think each school will then come out with its own uh own design. But I do think it's important. But again it comes down to teaching the children, just like it was using the internet. I mean, I remember the w in internet at the school that I was working at. I I typed I was looking for something at a Middlesex school, but it was banned because of the the last three w the letters the last three letters of the word. And I you know, why?

You know, uh but I th I think things will evolve and I think barriers and and things will do it. I mean the the big concern that seems to be coming out at the moment from a safeguarding perspective is the imagery and the imageries around the videos. And around sort of, you know, what you can do with images and and just make them very sexual or or even uh otherwise.

Absolutely. And I I think that's where we are at the moment with with the developing technology. But I think, you know, if we educate the children and aga go back to my, you know, walking on the grass analogy. I do think that if we tell them that this is out here, this is what you shouldn't do, just like we have done with Google and the like, then I think we'll go some way to preventing some of the horrors that will happen.

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Ivani, final question to you because as always we run out of time on these podcasts and we never get to talk as much as we'd like. It's going back to something that you said earlier, actually, about due diligence. And I mentioned that I felt there was a shortage about of evidence about how the AI is or isn't impacting positively or negatively. I'd like to explore that a bit more with you. It was interesting what Harvey was just saying about

Trying out tools that you can see are pedagogically sound. You can make a certain number of judgments yourself, can't you? You can say, Oh, is it pedagogically sound? Okay, yes. You can check whether the technology is robust. Yes. You can look at the local regulations, so GDPR, for example. So you can do a certain amount and you can review things yourself, any tech product, whether it involves AI or not, and you can share that with other teachers. But how are we really going to know?

What the impact of these AI tools are in your planning? How are you thinking about that kind of evaluation piece so that you can? constantly be collecting information about what your experience is. Because I think our experiences are really important and it's important to share them with each other. Yn ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud. Teachers, you know, uh early careers teachers and those that have been here a lot longer.

really trying to get a sense of what works for them and what doesn't and then going out to other Conferences, other schools, and you know, I'm a real believer in collaboration and finding out from each other what. what people are doing. I think how I want to approach it is what I do with Change Project. which is to sort of pre-mortem as far as we can. So in other words, when we're when we're at the planning stages, work with the end in mind.

As far as you can know. And then as you go along, that's what your stakeholder feedback and your data and the various quality assurance things that you're going to do will tell you whether you're steering a path to that. But what I'm imagining is because this is unlike any other thing that I've done, is because the end keeps moving. Um doesn't it? And and and that's the difficult bit. You cannot you can never say, yes, we have realized our vision or we have

um grasp it. I think it's going to be much more nuanced than that. And it will be borne out by the outcomes of the students, what the students say, it will be borne out by staff's engagement. You know, uh uh things like if Um Harvey was talking earlier about working smart and and I I and I love that because I think that that's really, really important. So for example, I've used Google workflows in the past.

to reduce the amount of time it takes to crunch and triangulate data. And when I used it and then rolled it out with the staff, they reported that their mental health improved because they weren't putting in the hours and hours and hours actually sorting out the data. They were working on the analysis and that freed them up. So I think it's those softer things that's going to be helping you with your due diligence and telling you whether you are successful or not.

But I think that there's an immense pressure uh with any strategy, any digital strategy, with actually saying whether we have been successful or not, apart from the things that I've said. Are you delivering on some of the areas that you thought at the beginning of your project? And you and your due diligence. Are the children more engaged? Are staff feeling better about their work life balance?

Are you managing to reduce costs because you've managed to integrate some of the systems that you've got? Do students have access to devices? And you know, for me, one of my goals is uh Pearson Education is talking about taking everything online. So one of the pieces of due diligence I'm doing is working for the English.

uh exam. I got in touch with them the other week actually and they're looking at trialling that. So actually um being some of the early adopters because we want to see how it works. Yes. Um And I think that will give us more information um in order to But this is like an industrial revolution in size and scope. So I don't think I think

as an historian, people in a hundred years' time will be writing about the leather sellers and saying, well, you know, yes, they were um, you know, they were some of the early innovators in this space. But I don't think I will in my

career, be able to say, yes, we've arrived. I just think it will be milestones that we hit along the road. So a complete politician's answer. I haven't answered your question, but it's the best I've got. But you have, you have. You've provided some really useful pointers. you know, particularly around, you know, making clear what it is you hope to achieve and and and recognizing that

It's going to evolve and and what you want to achieve is going to evolve. And so it's having a dynamic approach to collecting that and then sharing it and learning from it. I think you're right. I'm going to come back to you after I spoke to Harvey and I'm kind of giving you a heads up so you can think about this question while I talk to Harvey. I'm going to ask you at the end for your top tips.

for somebody listening who perhaps hasn't yet engaged with AI so you can have a think about it, what would you say to them they might like to do? But I'll come back to you for that. But before I do that, I would just like very quickly to get a sense of what's your real hope.

Very briefly, what would you really love to happen through AR? I'm really excited. I am hoping because I actually I love technology and actually I love the idea of AI. So what I'm really hoping, it's it's what Harvey says, the things that you can do, you know, the possibilities, the creativity, the possibilities in in the educational space. I I find that really exciting and and my hopes for the future are that we can harness those and actually make it a joy to be teaching.

I think young people are already ahead of us there. Um so I I guess it's joining them on the journey, but what I hope to get is working with them to really you know, get to the possibilities, the the the the positive and the, you know, life affirming possibilities that I think we can realise on this journey. That sounds like a great aspiration. I love it. Thank you, Abani. Carvey, over to you. Safeguarding good, the bad and the ugly of AI and your hopes and dreams for AI, right?

Quite a big question there for you, Harvey. Yeah, it is a massive question and I agree with Ivania. I don't think we'll ever come to an answer because I think it'll be ever evolving, especially now with the intelligence that's being shown around it. Uh that I was reading a a World Economic Forum article the other day and I I quite like the quote they made and they talked about

and there was one of the headers on on what what the best tips are for AI and they were talking about teaching about AI is as crucial as teaching with AI. And I I think they're absolutely right. And I think that to me is is where we've got to go with it. I I I really think that we we probably have not talked about one group. We've quite rightly centred our our conversation around teachers and learners and or learners and teachers in in that order of importance. But

We mustn't forget the parents. And and and I think here this is where the safeguarding really does come into play. I mean there's lots of around in the media about, you know, addiction to devices, whether that's the right phrase or overuse of devices by teenagers, et cetera, et cetera. I know my my my grumpy teenager gets cross with me because he's got a l there's there's no devices upstairs, they're not allowed to use them in their rooms.

uh they've got to do them in an open open space just just for their own safety, whether that's playing his Xbox or whether it's actually playing on his phone. Um and as I say, I mean i i it's one of those things that has evolved over time. But I I I do agree entirely about working backwards. almost looking at the end point in mind and then going and finding ways over round and through those obstacles as they come round and and hoping getting somewhere and and moving forward. But it is

uh shifting sands. Uh and I think ultimately we have to work. And this is something that Ivani has has has said along the way, as well as myself. It is about working with all stakeholders. And I think we haven't really said much on parents. And I do think that they are a key stakeholder because uh not only be because of that we've got their children, but more importantly, they're the ones that really need to uphold some of the ethical approaches that we are looking at at school.

So if they're not informed about it, they're going to be completely oblivious to what's going on with regards to uses. uh o of of AI and how it can be used. You'll have some that will say, No, you can't use AI and uh and you can't use AI at home, it's ridiculous and you'll have those criticisms at school, levied it.

Whatever level of management you might be in. But equally, you know, they're going to be those that are much more laissez-faire about it. Oh, that's fine, you just do it, you do it for your project. Rydyn ni'n ei wneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud.

um and everything like that. I mean Seoch have done a wonderful job for many, many years around that. Common sense, as I say, from the US and Project Zip Harvard I think it's just a matter of working with them and working as Barney says with all stakeholders and making sure that they they're aware of where we're going and and we have a very clear direction about what we want to do. Yes, that direction might move because the end goal has moved.

So I I think it's making that very clear and and for some that will be difficult to understand because everyone s you know I can think some of my older members of staff like that fixed point at the end of term or that fixed point we've got to get to. Well, we might never get there. Absolutely. We've got to work towards it. Absolutely. I think that's such a good point. And thank you for bringing parents into the conversation.

I think it's supremely important. So would it be right to think that perhaps your hope for the future is that actually is about stakeholders working together and being coordinated in the way that they help? students help each other to engage with these technologies. Yeah, absolutely. And as I say and you know

It also I think it's a real positive part of engagement for them as well with their children. Oh look, I'm using AI. Okay. What sources have it so it comes down to the reference and citations and and there's some really, really good ones now. Um, you know, I think of uh I used to use Chat GPT, I've moved more towards perplexity.ai because it academically is much more much more reference citation valuable.

And you know, you can have that conversation with your children. Oh what w okay, you used AI but what what did they use? And suddenly they've got to then look through and and try to understand what what people are saying. So there's your evaluation, there, there's, you know.

but and your analysis coming in automatically through through your Blooms taxonomy, which goes back to our earlier question. So I I do think, you know, we've got to educate that group alongside at the moment, just like we did But they're going to be a much more informed audience now, especially the Gen Z parents as they're coming into our schools and to the workplace. Yep, that makes absolute sense. Thanks, Javi. I'm going to come back to you in a moment for your top tip for our listeners.

uh who if they're thinking about engaging with AI, but I'm gonna go back to Avani for her tip first, but just to give you a heads up, Harvey. Avani, what would your top tip be, please? Is it a top tip or top tip? I can be chips. I think another one, feel free. That's fine. I've got four, but I'll be brief. Um so firstly, ask around. I think all the things that both Harvey and I have said.

Other people, the expertise is in the system. So we've got, you know, do your due diligence, which is actually number two, but it goes hand in hand with that. Find out what you don't know, go to conferences, speak to people, and bring that back. And then I'd say a top tip, and I haven't really talked much about it, but is plan with experts. um because they will guide you along the way. I've been a lot of my digital strategy has been done with our d um our IT provider.

uh sweet haven and there is a lot of expertise there and especially with the back end infrastructure and costings and stuff like that, they have been invaluable. So get yourself some experts to help you with with the planning. And within your plan, learn as you go along. So lots of stakeholder feedback, lots of baselining, and that will move you as you go along. And the final thing is plan with the end in mind.

You you need to know what your vision is, you need to know why you're doing what you're doing. Even if it's a fluffy blue skies thinking, but have some idea what do you want the students to be able to know and do. You know, I've talked a lot about digital character, digital emotional intelligence, digital poverty. If those are the things that you're trying to eradicate, that's what your plan is leading you towards. So sorry. Four top tips from me.

Fantastic. No, four is fantastic. Thank you, Avani, and thank you for joining me. Harvey, over to you. Uh I've got one, but it's got sort of four subsections, so I'm going to sort of do what Ivany did, but you know being a fairly It is all five. It might end up being five, but um I've got I've got uh I think the main one is shaping ed tech.

in your school, in your context, and I think shaping it in your way for your needs. And I think that's the important bit. But you can't do that, as Givani says, without champions, that's parents, staff and students. That's sharing. You need to understand what you can get out of it. So you need to understand the effectiveness of prompting. So that's shaping your ed tech in your school, understanding what a prompt means and and how you can do that effectively. Robust procedures, safeguarding.

guidelines, making sure that everything is in place, the due diligence, as Avalani said. And then I just think we uh the outcome of all of that, the the last sort of subsection of shaping your ed tech in your school, comes around making sure you can adjust pedagogical practices. And most importantly, you know, learn from what you're doing.

And I think, you know, I've always believed that the day I stop learning is the day I need to give up teaching. And and we we need to get the most out of our pedagogical practices so that students can get the most from AI and their learning. Rydyn ni'n meddwl, mae'n meddwl, mae'n meddwl, mae'n meddwl, mae'n meddwl, mae'n meddwl, mae'n meddwl, mae'n meddwl, mae'n meddwl, mae'n meddwl, mae'n meddwl, mae'n meddwl, mae'n meddwl, mae'n meddwl, mae'n meddwl, mae'n meddwl, mae'n meddwl.

Brilliant. That's brilliant. Thank you. I think Ivani, Harvey, that's going to be so useful for our listeners. So all it remains for me to do is to say thank you to Ivani and Harvey for joining us. And I'm sure that people listening to the podcast will get a heck of a lot from this episode that will be super useful to them. So thank you very much indeed. Thank you.

Many thanks to our wonderful guests today. It's been great having you on the podcast. If you want more information on the series and our great guests, visit the EdTech Podcast website at theedtechpodcast.com and connect with us on social media. To see how Educate Ventures Research uses AI ethically and helps other people to use AI ethically within education in schools, colleges and universities. Visit our website, educateventures.com.

We are experts and we are here to help you, so please reach out to us. I'd also like to let you know that we have a new AI safeguarding course, and that has been achieved through a collaboration with Real Group Training. And we'll put a link to that course in the podcast. So that if you're interested you can find out more. By me, Professor Rose Luckin.