Combating the Bungee Effect with Lean Principles - Jason Schroeder

Hopefully we get better today but even seeing you like i i feel my my immune system like getting stronger just by seeing you you know so i was taking a trip down memory lane and i was looking back to when we first connected on linkedin jason and it was it was like right when everything was changing it was like 2020 magical year you were you were moving off starting your own thing at elevate and looking at your linkedin numbers this morning 27 000 congratulations my friend thank you that's a

number of followers i'm 20 000 behind you you have far surpassed me and i'm so proud to be your friend and see like what you've done and i even have your your book i'm just going to just gush all over you you know i've got my my autograph jason copy and i was preparing for this interview and thinking about all the cool stuff you did and and you're such a like a book bandit you just crush steal time from god knows where to publish these

books and yeah i just noticed on this book on the cover it says.

Book one yeah there will be more yeah that's that's it's okay every one of those images in that book kate did so it's there's a lot of over processing in that one actually i would make the image and sketch it one of our lean tact engineers would then do it and then kate would turn it into a consistent format for all of the images in the the book because she said don't write some boring lots of texts book jason people are tired of that so it was really highly visual that took

a lot of time but book two is tax steering and control and then book three will tie into the integrated production control system and i i'm really excited about both of them i just need to get started on the third so yeah yeah and i know you will will absolutely know you will how's your book how's your book doing that's a that's you have a fantastic book by the way thank you yeah that book is doing well is that good every month i get an email from amazon says

congratulations you will receive royalty payments this month and i'm always like i act the same way every every month i'm like.

Oh my gosh. It's been doing really well. It's been selling internationally.

And I mean, the U S is the number one place, but also internationally, we've made it free on Kindle and limited the whole entire time.

I did notes from some folks overseas that Kindle limited doesn't always work depending on what country they're in. So people, if you're listening out there, you're in some place and you can't get it, just message me. We'll figure out a way to get, get a copy your way.

And if you message Felipe, you're in for a treat. he's a good guy are you still just as nice as you always were always yeah that's cool every now and then find uh people that you blocked and make friends with them every now i've only blocked seven people it's not that big of a deal that's amazing you take your sweatshirt off your lean tech branded sweatshirt and you have a lean tech polo underneath it yeah i love i love these.

And so the the i think i've changed my tune with the arguing with people on linkedin i think i'm more open to having empathy and connecting with people there's a lot of grumpy people out there though uh so so i've i've i've repented of my ways with that well we even have some i mean some i would classify some of the friends that i have as being super grumpy and and it's kind of weird it's like they almost take on a different persona when we're on social media than when they're you know talking

to you one-on-one yeah it's i always think like okay they're they're wrapped up in the perceptions and their experiences so they haven't had my experiences and they were just gonna have a different take and yeah maybe i could may i always say this now jason i used to say i always will learn something from them yeah say maybe i will learn something but i've softened a little bit the other way yeah that's funny well the conversation

i learned the other day that the The reason people get so violent on, or at least one theory in social media is because they don't have proximity.

They can't see face-to-face, hug, touch, discuss, be around them later. They don't live in the same town, root for the same football team. And I thought, hey, that's something. It's really easy to get mad and other or demonize other people when you're not near them all the time. And it's probably just pretty natural. You know what I mean?

So I'm a little bit more patient about it. So you're a good example for me. Thank you. Yeah, I was, I got up to it at my, when I was scheduling well and everything was good. I got to about five posts a day, which was crazy. It was crazy good. I mean, it was so much fun, Jason, like, you know what it is, but then, you know, I'd realizing like, well, sometimes I would post because using the schedule, I couldn't react to people and have the dialogue back and forth.

So like I get back to about two and I think for me, the sweet spot is like one to two per day. That way the right type of engagement. That's awesome. I, Andrew, did you get, did you see a lot of results from that?

Like more, so obviously some more people reaching out, more people implementing scrum. That's awesome. Ton more. I've been getting a lot more people that I've never met, ever heard of. Like recently, I was talking to somebody over the holidays about scrum and what's the difference between like a registered scrum master, certified scrum master, and then like a professional scrum master. I started to realize, man, there's a lot of scrum competition training out there.

So I was just of saying first i always answer with i'm biased because i'm a registered scrum master i'm also a certified scrum master and i maintain both credentials but i'm a registered scrum trainer so i'm biased towards whatever scrum inc is doing because that's where that's where my bread's buttered and and where all innovation comes from and the patterns and we co-created the construction design and construction scrum course so that when i tell people like as

far as i know there's no no other design and construction course out there but if you find it let me know so i'm biased saying that this one is the best one for you because we use examples patterns implementations and experiences that are for us in our industry you know others because most of the other scrum stuff is super heavy software and it because that's where it's for a long long time and we have even more case study examples you know more people and i still to this day jason you hold the

record for most questions asked during and i had the last course that i taught this december people were asking like how many questions did jason ask and i said you're not even halfway to where he was yet so well this scrum is game changing i mean i'm preaching in choir with you but i didn't understand the things i needed to understand until i took your course and in fact would you mind if i shared a quick thought with you and see if you can

lead me down the right road yeah let's do it so that Yeah, and I was telling Hal this on a podcast just the other day. And by the way, full transparency, Kate hates this name. So we're going to have to rename it, structure it, and make it a concept that will stick. But I called it the bungee effect.

And what it was is when we start to trade stack or trade burden and overlap our trades to where they're either stacked multiple people in one area or burdened where they're in too many areas. That because of that list that you teach in your course of you now are batching work, you have context switching, larger team size, additional complexity in communication. Now you're changing leaders, you're changing crew compositions. Now you're doing needless or unnecessary or useless onboarding.

And then you stop installing work right the first time, which means you have rework.

And then you stop looking out ahead for roadblocks, you stop removing roadblocks and your product oh and then you start working overtime and there's this productivity spiral and the for anybody listening on the podcast like when you overlap a day that whether it's it springs back or springs back two to three days it'll it when you when you overlap it it'll bungee back because trades just can't do it right and so those i think i counted and 14 of them and they're

all for anybody listening they're all concepts felipe taught me and then other lean people would say well they have always been lean and felipe and the group looped them into scrum i don't know what happened but scrum training is what taught me them.

They spring it back and i believe that if superintendents and people in the industry understood the bungee effect or whatever we want to call it they would understand that it's not a a viable solution for for accelerating schedules and even scrum which i love by the way we got scrum everywhere at elevate and lean tech scrum it doesn't tell you to trade burden or trade stack they tell you to if i unless i have it wrong to protect the team

and to collaboratively use that scrum board with your your your sprint planning and your review and your retrospectives and so So this is also a nimble system that does not hurt trades.

And so when you hear that, and let me put you on the spot, Felipe, when you hear about that bungee effect, you named the tech production system. So I'm thinking, do you have a name for that? What? Oh, and here's my question. How can we get that popularized, marketed, or named in a way that everyone will, oh yeah, if you do that, you'll get the bungee effect. Or like, teach me. Yeah, you know, I'm not, I'm not disliking the bungee effect.

Sorry, Kate, but as you described it, I mean, for people listening, I'm huge on context and what Jason's talking about absolutely does happen. There will be times during a project where people make decisions to, you know, to force trades into areas because they're available. It's a side effect of, of a low planning environment.

The higher you plan, you would never sacrifice and push people into areas where they shouldn't be because you know that it's going to take focus off of where you're planning to go. So you're going to delay your milestones. But the people look at and superintendents, I feel for you, all the superintendents out there.

And I've been a superintendent when you, when you've got like 10 crews or three crews, or sometimes even just four people in front of you that need something to do, you want to to not let them be at work being unutilized because you've been trained.

Everything in your training says, I have people, I've got to keep people busy. This is the mantra of most super tents is unspoken. And so what Jason was describing is like something has interrupted your plan and you've decided to move people into areas just to make them busy. Like Jason described, putting people in multiple locations, doing all those things.

What you've done is you've broken your plan or you've you've adapted you think you're adapting to to do something well sometimes it's better to to slow people down and say okay we can't you know do this stop let's replan yeah planning and this is one of the scrum patterns that we talk about so one one antidote for what jason described would be to bring the key people and you don't have to bring in the entire job site bring the key people in and do a quick replanning

sometimes you can do it between just two trades trades, sometimes it's only just the issue of one trade. It's rare to be the entire job site. Like the job sites are so big that people can continue working and make progress on the plan. But you mean you might need to bring in one, two, maybe four of the trades. Maybe. Welcome to the EBFC show, the easier, better for construction podcast.

I'm your host, Felipe, engineer, Manriquez. This show is all about the business of construction. Today's show is also sponsored by the Lean Construction Institute. LCI is working to lead the building industry and transforming its practices and culture. Its vision is to create a healthy and thriving industry that delivers outstanding project outcomes every time for everyone. Check the show notes for more information.

Now, to the show. Depending on like what type of, and Jason and I are on jobs from, you know, thousands of dollars to billions of dollars. Yeah. Like this works at the very large as well as the very small. Bring people in, do a quick planning.

I'm talking to like 20 to 30 minutes with the right people that can make decisions on bungee, the bungee cord. Because Jason's right. What's going to happen is that they're going to stretch out to make this temporary thing happen. Yes. Yes. And they're going to, they're going to bungee back. And that bungee back is unpredictable. Just like the bungee cord, Jason. So I'm like, I'm doubling down on this bungee.

I love it. It's going to be the bungee effect as coined by Jason Schroeder. And sleep engineer. We're going to promote this to show people what happens. And then when that bungee comes back, unpredictably, you've lost flow on the job. So if you don't intervene and you let it just bungee back, and no matter what you think is going to happen, it will absolutely bungee back.

Because eventually they're going to get past that constraint, that bottleneck, and people are going to try to get back on plan.

But they're going to try to do it by themselves, sub-optimized. Because the people's view of their work is just too narrow. It's by design with specialization. You can't overcome it. The only way to overcome it is to increase knowledge flow. And the only way you're going to increase knowledge flow, unfortunately, is to bring people in and have some kind of visual to represent the work, which is what I love. I'm a huge TAC fan. I mean, just even look at the cover of Jason's book.

Just on the cover, the TAC, it's impossible not to see the structure in that TAC plan. And if you have something like that, or if you're pool planning using last planner system, or if you're using scrum and, and, you know, I always say if you're using tact or last planner system, you're using versions of scrum. Yep.

And I say that all the time and I show people. And so they know I've got, I've got YouTube videos on this topic, not to the beauty, the beauty of Jason's level, but I'm a huge Jason fan, but the bungee effect to overcome that increase the communication flow. So let people visually see what the new plan is after you've come through that.

If you're in a bungee zone now and it's already shrinking back, you can still bring people in and replan and make it visual, implement a tact or implement a small plan. Whole plan or implement a small scrum to get through that hurdle and then back tracking towards your milestone. And if you're on the job and you're not even like tracking towards a milestone within a four week span, then my God, go to lean tax web, a YouTube channel right now and start watching Jason's videos.

Just binge watch all those videos, go back to the earliest video and just binge watch them to the present. You've got to have a way to navigate and steer steer this project. Otherwise the project steers itself. And when it steers itself, you're going to have a whole bunch of punch list work.

And Jason, what you're describing, that bungee effect, let's not forget the second order consequences. So the first order consequences is that you're, you're pushing people, burdening them. The stress for the workers is going up in the moment because you're now trying to make them be in multiple places at once or working with people too close to them, which creates danger and safety issues. When you just pile Pile too many people together.

There are limits of space and how much space people need to do their work correctly at a high level of quality with pride. And if you crush people in or you force people into these tighter conditions with too many people or trying to be in too many spots at once, you're decreasing their ability to have pride in their work, decreasing their ability to be focused. You're increasing the chances of safety issues. You're definitely increasing punch list issues and you're going to be on a job

with lots of back charges. So you're making a ton of work for the management side after the fact to clean up what you're doing, trying to do your best intentions in the field. This bungee effect has these second-order consequences, third-order consequences.

Here's the third-order consequence. If you do that enough as a pattern in the work that you're doing, your company is going to pay higher prices for work than is necessary. Versus teams like that Jason and I work with where we can reduce punch lists down to just handfuls of items because the quality goes way up when you can plan the work and when people know where they're going to work, as Jason famously says.

Trade flow, logistical flow, And a crew for trade flow, logistical flow, which is workflow workflow. Yeah. Cool me down, Jason. Say it. It's going to sound better. Sorry. Work, workflow, trade flow and logistical flow. Yeah. Workflow. Like where are the trades going? What are we, where are we headed towards? Where is the materials going any given day? Right. Where are the crews going day by day so that you can see you've got a level work.

What I love most about, And I learned how to level work way better in Jason's course, in his TAC training course, which I highly recommend to everybody.

I became a TAC master with Jason. Jason taught me how to level crews in a very intuitive and easy way. And I think, Jason, did you ever go to the Berkeley training that they used to do, P2SL for TAC? So we sent some of our engineers there to learn. And without sharing any of their tools, they shared the concepts.

And that's primarily where we learned work density leveling yeah and yeah so do we we learn quite a bit from that course yes i learned some basic stuff from that course as well and then when i came to your course years later it's like everything just unlocked it was like just perfect unlocking like oh remember this from that course and then when i saw like how to how you'd systematized it it just it just seems so easy to do i've even taken like the basics of like how to to

create a TAC plan and scrummed it. And I show people, here's how you do it. You take creating a TAC plan and just run it through scrum. And then you, it's very easy to do. And Jason has done a great job on his site with the TAC template.

And it's like step-by-step guidance like even one of the pages on your tag template workbook had like six or seven steps maybe eight steps on the left side and then you make your attack plan on the right side yeah i mean you just can't make it any easier people like jason and i always joke like even a bad tag plan will outperform a good cpm schedule every year yeah yeah yeah fungi effect, so and i love that the other thing i love is your the unintended consequences which you brought up

which I didn't have on my mind and needs to always pair with the teaching of the bungee effect is that if somebody was like, well, if I do stack, what are my exact consequences? Well, you don't know. Like that could be a long tail. Like they say in the book, how big things get done. Like it. Oh my God. You, you're like, are you in my room, Jason? Cause I got that book right here on my desk.

I'm, I'm like in love with that book. I feel like they went, I feel like, well, this is arrogant. I'll just say it. Everybody's just going to have to forgive me. I feel like in that book, they took all the things that we're talking about as lean influencers and was like, oh, well, let me just go ahead and do a study for you to prove that it's real. It's like, oh my gosh, this is exactly what we're talking about.

And the unintended consequences, I like that book because they say, you know, it can be up to 65% over on average, but in some cases, I think they had said 1880%. That's 1880% over what they had originally budgeted. And I'm like, I don't know, 1880 is such a large number. I don't even have the skills to mention it in a percentage quickly. Like, we always talk about 120, 200, 300.

Well, I've never gone above 1000 on a percentage. And so to your point, those unintended consequences, it will I, oh, this is actually kind of, I'm fortunate. I don't know what to say, but there was a little YouTube video. I was in a doom scroll on a plane because I wasn't feeling well yesterday on the plane. And I saw a video with a circle where the balls, there was two balls. And as soon as they hit each other, they would make another one. Right.

And then they kept going. And then the circle like jam packed because of this ripple effect. And when you start that productivity spiral, because of those things, it's just, it becomes exponential. Just like the communication, What is the complexity of communication for team sizes? And I think that's important to realize that as soon as a superintendent does this to the point where it's actually going to compound, it could be exponential and very, very dangerous for the project.

And then I don't know that we have proper anchors for how bad it can get.

The other thing I hope everybody, I don't know if I'm batching too much information here but the other thing I hope everybody got was when you said about quality the other day I was working with a project team talking to them about, their field engineering program and their self-perform work and they're like Jason we need help making sure that our self-perform is perfect like we work for an owner that will not tolerate one

mistake now we all know that that's unrealistic when you know concrete cracks and we pay taxes like those are the two two certainties in life right but but when in the past i would do field engineer training, and that that's it like oh if we do better lift drawings we'll have a better quality product or if i we train the field engineers better for layout we'll have better quality product but i was wrong we have to train the field engineers and the foreman.

And the workers to your point to pair together and to work within a quality system like w edwards deming says to work within the system to create a create a quality product and before that to your point the schedule has got to enable them to work in one piece one process flow which is another really really huge thing that i learned from scrum is that really narrow in progress column, you're not the and and i was talking to the project team i was like guys your crews will not they

will be incentivized by going they will think that they will try to go fast to incentivize because they're being incentivized to meet production what they need to do is work in one process flow and plan build and finish while they're there and that's only going to happen within a system and I you you pointed me I heard you arguing with I can't remember but anyway I've been reading a lot of Deming lately and I love that he says quality is not cannot not pin quality

on the worker it's your job right and i told them that i said we have got to create a system where from a scheduling standpoint the integration with the foreman the huddles.

Like you said getting the people together and making sure that the field engineers are there in support that they can actually work in one process flow and so when people think about quality it's not a oh i would go fast but i've got to go do this boring quality thing no you want to to go fast do it quality like felipe's talking about so those are two really important concepts, yeah you got to zoom back and we're always it's jake harrell we always get into

debates on deming and even to this day he still baits me on linkedin every now and then but jake is a good friend of mine and. I know that uh deming has influenced him you you have to be influenced by someone even if you dislike them so take that jake you're super well what is what is the contention with deming if you had to guess if you know with him it's just he says that people blindly over rely on someone.

And it's like i'm not over relying and even i had another friend that said the same thing about lean that you know we'll get too crazy about lean and we've got a i consider bob ameliani a friend he's He's written just enormous, I think he's actually probably written as many books as you have, Jason. He's written more, like four times as many. By the way, he'll be, I get to interview him this afternoon. Oh my God, yeah. Yeah. Congratulations. Small world. Dr. Bob.

You can tell him Felipe said, hi, Dr. Bob. I will. Yeah. I will. I think I remember, so Hal Maycomber said, I need to go talk to Bob and read Goldratt's Principles of Flow.

Don't tell how but i read the principles of flow before and it was it was a little bit dry so i didn't steal too much from it but the so i'm going to go back and read that and learn as much as i can from bob i think bob did a couple of counterpoints on some linkedin posts but i never blocked him so you'd be proud of him look it's paying off and i was going to be a a content i I mean, he's a massive content provider on LinkedIn content, but I think,

you know, people are not wrong to say we should not get over reliant on one or two thinkers in any given space. And, and, but I, I consider Deming even today, one of my mentors, I never met him. He was by the time I even realized he existed, he'd already passed away in the nineties. And so all I have are the books, right? Just like you do.

We just have the books and they've been very influential on me. a lot of the stuff that he wrote about is still true even now especially i think he's he was very critical of western management style and you know when i say western management style a lot of the listeners might not even know what i'm referring to and that's okay you just check out that one of deming's books i'd say the first good deming book to start with is the new economics okay good first

start and i jason held up out of the crisis that's a little thicker one that's like more advanced deming reading but i'd say start with the new economics there's a lot of nuggets in there there that talk about things like even just as basic as in the work that we do, no matter what kind of job you have, psychology is a big part of our work. I think a lot of people undervalue that. And even in your book, Jason, in the Art of the Lean Builder Tack Planning, book one.

You have this big disclaimer in the beginning of the book about who this book is for. And then this book is to prevent people from becoming abusive with tax planning. And I love that you put that in there. Like that was a surprise. Like I'm turning the pages and I saw that in the book and I thought, man, how, how thoughtful of you to put that warning in the book?

Because people do, especially in Western management where it's not people are evil, but there's things in the system that incentivize people to behave in evil ways and to take advantage of people even at the sacrifice of humanity yeah people trying to do the work and i think you and i have both been to many projects where the value for people respect for people is really low and i'm always amazed that people still show up to work every day without treated

quality is really on management you can't just go because i went through the list like Like setting clear expectations, communicating expectations.

Incentivizing on the job site, the quality control program, the ability to stop and get it right from the beginning. I went going through the list on one of the YouTube videos that I just recorded. It's like the workers and foremen aren't in control of any of these. Like that's such an interesting concept to me. The other thing is, Kate, and I think I am too, but I just don't get very much time. That sounds bad.

I don't take very much time to listen to Simon Sinek, but Kate is a huge Simon Sinek fan. And I was like, what's his main message? And she said his message is to reverse the teaching, all of the teachings of Milton Friedman. And I was a little thrown by that because back in the day, I was a huge Milton Friedman fan when it comes to like capitalism and socialism and economics and things like that. But there's one thing that Milton Friedman said was the purpose of the business to make money.

Simon's next. And it sounds like Deming, said the purpose of a business if you're playing the infinite game is to.

Benefit humanity and I really like that clarification because to your point and this is actually a really good cue because on the podcast I've been taught the the books the triumph of, classical management over lean management straight talk how Google works Deming they all say the same thing when you get people in their ivory castle muscle, disconnected from the work, they have the money and the levers and the decision-making, but these are the people that know what needs to be done.

When you separate that, that's classical Western management, right? And you're making decisions and solving problems that don't exist. And so I think that's really well queued up for anybody that is at least listening on my end. And I think it's great.

One of the things that I wanted to say, and so I hope I'm I'm doing these one at a time and not batching too much, but there's a lot of lean influencers that get mad at each other for different things. And I thought like when, so Jake has a point, don't over rely on somebody. But in my opinion, we're doing exactly what those influencers or those authors or those experts were wanting us to do, right?

If we take Nicholas Modig's work and and Jeffrey K. Liker's work, which I know Bob has a problem with, Bob's work, and all these people, Deming, we're taking it and implementing it. And sometimes I see, and I'm not complaining, I'm not mad about this at all, but sometimes I see it's like, no, we're not sticking true to the original text, or you're sticking too much to the original text.

It's like, whoa, whoa, whoa. we are implementing in the field with results and social media in the results of these systems and applying it so with the thought that comes to me in my opinion I love your perspective I think we're doing exactly maybe I'm wrong maybe they wanted us to follow it exactly but I was under the impression that we were doing exactly what they wanted us to do with this is to implement Am I wrong? No, you're not wrong.

I think Deming famously said that you've got to, I mean, he talked about things from a theoretical perspective and a lot of people misunderstood theory and people forget, like he was trained as a physicist. So he was a scientist first and then he became somehow, I don't know the sequence of events that led him to becoming a management consultant, but he was a scientist first and everything was based on experiments.

Like you do something, you observe what happens, then you adjust your course and then you experiment your way to understand because you're dealing in complex systems. The language for complexity came later with some of the work by Dave Snowden who wrote the Kenevan theory, which is C-Y-N-E-V-E.

Can e-f-i-n that's how you spell it's a welsh word and so like the whole point of that is that if you're in a system that's not simple this is where cause and effect are not easy to ascertain yeah you've got to experiment to see what happens and then study your experiment to see like do i want this again do i want more of this you've got experiment deming was definitely pro experimentation. Get get dirty with the tools lycra was trying to understand at a deeper level

what was happening at Toyota. And Dr. Bob, he just wrote this on LinkedIn. I saw it this morning when I woke up, he had a post that was going viral on one of his posts talking about there've been no Toyotas for over 35 years. He said there are no new Toyotas. So no companies with the system that performs at the level of Toyota have come into existence now in the last 35 years. And he's He's right. I don't see any companies coming to the marketplace at a level of Toyota sophistication.

But at the same time, when Taiichi Ono invented the Toyota production system, it was hated for a long time. And it took him 25 years to implement it at the assembly plant. He started off in the second tier suppliers, first and second tier suppliers. And then they moved him into the main manufacturing plants. And then over decades. He got the system implemented to what Lycra was studying now. So what Lycra studied took an entire lifetime of somebody to implement and get stable.

And people don't recognize that. They think it just happens. And there's people always crapping on the lean tools. Even Bob, in his post this morning, he said, people will come to the lean tools, use the tools. And then if the tools don't work, people are like, well, lean doesn't work.

Right and he makes a really good argument for why with when you take a systems purview like it's not going to work like i was training somebody let me bring this concept to life just just so beautifully, i have a friend that i've known for 10 years finally came to one of my scrum trainings and this person always would say things that i knew they had a different belief about batches and And I'm going to focus this on just batches just to prove this point.

So in Lean, we learn, or as some of our friends on LinkedIn will tell us, in industrial engineering, we learned that batch sizing plays a huge factor in your throughput of your system. The bigger the batch, the longer it's going to take you to do it. The smaller the batch, the faster you can flow through your system, the faster you can deliver what the client wants when they want it.

So there's a right sizing to batching. And in your book, you talk about Little's Law, and you said one of the main ideas of Little's Law is making smaller batch sizes or right-sizing the batches. Totally agree. And you can't argue the science, and you can even get mathematical on it to show. Now, this person, their belief was bigger is better. Super common American beliefs. Just go to any restaurant and you can see small,

medium, large, extra large, supersized me, examples all over. It's everywhere you go. Economy size, economies of scale. This is like the whole business model for Costco and Sam's Club and these big box stores that sell these huge bulk items. They tell you it's cheaper. Buy in bulk. It's cheaper. And so we're conditioned as consumers in the United States to always think bigger is better. And the more I have of something, the better it is, the cheaper it is.

And that's true, but you don't actually need all that stuff. And then you have to deal with like, now I've got closets full of like big bulky stuff that I can't hang my coat up in the wintertime because I got toilet paper and paper towels, like, you know, to the ceiling and I'm exaggerating how many paper towels. I'm not that messy. We use cloth towels sometimes.

But my point is like you have to deal with the inventory of having these huge batches like as a family of three do i need to have 24 rolls of toilet paper like what's going to happen in a five-day week and it's not like we live out in the woods jason like i live in the suburbs i can go to a gas station if i need to and buy toilet paper from a gas station if it gets that dire right but we're buying these huge jumbo rolls because the

price per sheet is so low because we're buying these massive quantities, but we don't take into account, like I've got to haul it. I've got to store it. I've got to handle it. There's all these extra things I have to do. So I'm trading back off the savings in my labor, you know, versus being efficient, just buying just enough at the right amount.

So I have a steady, steady amount for what I need on a, if I'm shopping, if my cycle of shopping is every five days or every six days, if I'm doing it on Saturdays, it's typically what I do.

I only need six days supply. supply why am I buying a one month supply right so like this superintendent to bring it back my friend he's uh he's thinking was bigger is better bring it all to the site and so he's working on this project and he's like I want to bring everything to the site and I said before you bring everything to the site for an ex there's an exterior sequence of work they're going to do I. How are you going to store it? How are you going to handle it?

You're going to, you're going to break. You're going to, you're going to dip into your addict stock of the stuff because things are going to get damaged. You're going to handle things twice or more than twice. I've never seen people take big batches of deliveries and not handle it three times minimum. I think I end up handling it.

And I said, you know, who's paying for all that? You are you to run it, to manage it just so you can feel like a little security blanket it like oh it's here i feel better no it's here now you got to protect it you got to account it you have to account for it and then you what are you going to do when you start dipping into your x-back you're just going to tell the owner like we'll get you some later in the future now you're making your management team manage that and

he still said i know he's like i'm doing it i'm bringing i'd rather have it here than not have it here and so he brought it and all the things that said what happened happened they had to create an inventory they had to handle it more than three times it reduced the profit for that subcontractor so i mean fast forward now he's coming to one of my scrum courses we get to the slide where jason's talking about where we teach batch sizes and there's diminishing returns when you get

to a certain team level because even people can batch too you get to a certain number of people you spend more money but you get nothing in return return for the extras owned nothing then it happens I think somewhere between.

10 to 17 people somewhere in between 10 to 17 people they show in studies that you get no return for the extra people yeah so you've got to change how you how you get the people together like Jason said there's onboarding you know socialization they call it the social debt uh culture norms all these things factor and so we're on the slide i'm watching i'm watching my friend jason no change no change crashing against his belief that more is better if i had more people i could

do more stuff but there's a limit like we said there's a limit of space time context of what people can actually physically be engaged in you know in scrum we have this pattern of swarming where you can bring the whole team together and go after a problem just like bees do on an invader to the hive to protect the queen the same with tasks but there's a limit to how many people can physically be on something yeah and it's it's work dependent it's task dependent so i told

my friend like i recognize this happening i said hey this is that thing that i was talking about here's the the data and the science and as i know the numbers will not compel you to change your mind i said you need to do an experiment a small experiment and just test this for yourself and then we play this game where we we batch with numbers. We create like three columns of stuff and we like this batch and then we do one piece flow and the one piece flow is always twice as fast.

And even then, the person's like, nah, it's just because of the game. I mean, that's how strong these beliefs are that people have. And so Jason and I are saying, you need to have the experience yourself. And us doing this on the podcast and explaining this to you, it's not going to make you change your mind to experience it firsthand. If you're on a construction project and you've never implemented lean or you can't recognize lean stuff happening, you're likely on a job that has large batches.

Yeah just check your here you want to see if you're on a traditional project people listening to the show go to your last two schedule updates and look find a milestone in the schedule that was in the next six weeks and if you see that milestone in the second update move to the right taking longer yeah congratulations you're in a traditional schedule yeah exactly you're you've got your batches are too big so like jason and i we look like ninjas are like magicians coming

into your projects to create flow what we do is we reduce batch sizes increases throughput we gain schedule time and then people are all like oh my god lean is so magical like it's really basic principles that we're applying these patterns and it's it's quite easy because 99.9 of all construction projects are big batching because everything in your everyday environment says bigger is better like you know if small microphones are good why not get a bigger microphone right yeah yeah or

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Yeah. For no reason. So that one, one job I did, and the concrete company suggested this, it wasn't my idea, but he said, we can bring out two smaller tower cranes and save a lot of money. We saved $360,000 by going to two smaller cranes and our productivity was amazing.

You know, one of the things that you mentioned, they, in their world, they may be right.

Like Your friend, if they're in a complex system where the owner is incentivizing bringing out all the material, and you said this, so I'm not adding anything that you didn't already say, but if the owner's like, yeah, I want it all here, and this is how we do things on this campus, or when you work for us, or we don't want smaller batch sizes, or the contractors we typically work with have larger zones, we want you to do the same thing.

And I don't know if the word socioeconomic is the right one for explaining this, but if your friend is always working in a complex system that incentivizes him to do that. He may be right isn't the right term. Meaning he may be right that he is incentivized to do that, but to your point, it's not right if the goal, which actually, oh my gosh, my mind blown. If the goal was to produce with, and you keep saying the shortest overall throughput time, then you're right. Smaller bat sizes, right?

And I just realized that when we read books like The Fifth Discipline or Thinking in Systems, one of the key components or levers is the goal of the system, right? And you also mentioned classical management or Western classical management. The goal of the system is,

is not to produce. The goal of the system is to, for each independent, for each separated, and you said this word as well, sub-optimized department to look as best as they can, in which case he may be being asked to bring out everything all at once.

Okay, so what I'm going to do in the future, if I get a situation like that, what I'm learning is I can separate the truth of the goal of a production system, which goes back to TPS, but from what they may be incentivized with and really connect and be like, in your system, the goal of your system that you're in on your project, that may be correct. You are right. If you want to change the goal to producing and respecting people, then we will have to do smaller batch sizes.

Do you think that would work, Felipe, or what do you think? I think that would work. And And, you know, if you're on the job, Jason, you're talking to him. You're like, yeah, we're going to do what Jason says. I've called that the Jason effect. I got to bring Jason to a job one time. And like Jason said, the exact same things that I said, almost word for word. But when Jason said it, Jason was right. And people were like, oh yeah, like Jason genius.

And I was like, yes, he is. And I just, I just was there cheerleading you, Jason, because I wanted them to try something different and bringing you there definitely did.

So you unlocked for a lot of people you have a good way of getting people to to try something different and i think we have the same talent but you know we're both together it's i call it the jason effect people jason says it's like getting people and you're totally right i forgot about the you know that's the good systems thinking that you said what is the and then i'm thinking of my friend now like now and you said it he has been incentivized to do this stuff because that's getting rewarded.

It makes the owner happy because the owner's used to the same thing.

They're all used to the same type of thing. And on that campus, they did this over and over and over again. Yeah, yes. And so it's getting reinforced, rewarded, and it's positive. And, you know, people laugh and we've gotten into fights, not you and I, but with other people. And I've said this and people always like, that's not true. Here's the thing I'm going to say. People always say, sometimes projects don't want to finish early or on time.

And everyone always tries to say schedule is so important, but it's not true. It's not true. Their schedule is really important. It doesn't match the behaviors that people take. Yeah, exactly. Right. There's so many projects we go to, Jason, where people tell you everything they say is that schedule is the most important thing.

Production is the most important thing. But then you walk their job and you're like, there's no way it's the most important thing. Yes. They're doing things on purpose. They don't know it, but they're doing things on purpose to slow production down.

Yes. less quality to make it dangerous environment and it's not the most important thing there's other things that are important and like western management i'm gonna think i think we're nailing something now and you can ask bob i think one of the main functions of western management is to keep people busy all the time yes yes that's exactly it i was thinking the exact same thing when you so very few hit on the point that you just hit it's when

so you're right it's not the goal it's not the goal the goal was to show that you.

Can implement as much as you possibly can from your pmp certification be busy and show the owner that you care through busyness yeah that's it that's it and the i when you were talking earlier i was like why and this sounds really arrogant i mean it like this but why have i jason schroeder been so successful on projects as a superintendent and you as well so i'm just talking about my experience but if you think about it all of the system components were there i got

i had experience i had the training a staff that i knew from the book how big things get done i had there was five people that i had worked with before and trained that were loyal to me an owner that was supportive of lean systems a work force and trade partners that were committed through contracts and relationships to the project itself and all other supportive elements. And so when I go implement, I had all those things, right?

And I do understand and I'm getting more mature into the project that I just visited the other day during my Christmas break.

I went there and they had everything. They had the trailer, they had the team they had the experience they had the background they knew their plan they had the best self-performer but the owner dictated you will do cpm by the book you will not try and optimize your zoning and it's like well okay well what do you guys want from me like i i flew out here like i you're you're not gonna you're not gonna go any faster and it's funny felipe they said the exact same thing that you said

which is really funny they said we've done multiple multiple projects like this and we track them, this is our template plan, boom, let's shove it in your face. And I can't help but feel that.

And i may be wrong but when i read the deming and i'm not through all of it and i probably don't even understand most of it because i'm not on on other people's or your level but i can't help but feel that what they did in japan was to change the socioeconomic conditions and realize that they were in a crisis that's the title of the book obviously and were intrinsically motivated to to work together, network, and really do this right.

And I love what you just said, even then, it took him 25 years. And so, very sympathetic. In fact, Kate the other day was like, and I don't know if we're gonna do this or not, so nobody freak out, but we get asked to do a lot of training. I probably just did 30 training proposals over the last couple weeks. weeks. And Kate was like, I'm, we're not going to do training for anyone who doesn't automatically do tech loss planner and scrum.

It's just not a thing. And she was, she's the CEO. So it's her job to, you know, throw out the entrepreneurial radical ideas. Right. But she's like, because if we can go train you all you want, if you don't have the right systems, if you don't have the right buying leadership, we're wasting our time. And that's our brand too. That was her argument. it. And I was thinking like, that is really good point.

Like, are you in or, and I know this sounds dictatorial and I talked to Jen just the other day, I need to get better with this, but like, the, like, are you in? Because if you're in to your point, it's not just the tools. It's not just the training. We have to change the overall system. And I know that was a lot of concepts there, but I, I really feel like if I look back, listening to some of the things that you were We were saying I was successful with Lean.

You were successful with Lean because we had all supportive systems within the complex system itself. What do you think of that? I completely agree. And even thinking of some of the times where things missing, like I've had feedback from project teams say, well, you can get results that we can't get. And like, what's the difference? Like, well, some of the difference is my attitude. So like with the workers, like my attitude towards the frontline workers is totally different.

And when I say the workers, I'm even talking about design professionals as well, engineers and architects.

The way that I talk to, it's kind of funny. Like if you put a camera on my shoulder, Jason, and you filmed how I talked to architects and engineers and how I talked to trade people, identically the same, except trades people. It's a little bit more foul language, just a little bit, not much more. But I think like my, my, I empathize with people that actually have to do the work and, and I tell them like the goal of what we're doing is not to make you busy 10 hours a day.

Cause that doesn't, that's not helpful. Sometimes you need to do nothing. And I say, I'm not advocating for like nothing, but I'm advocating for like doing work that's needed, that's valuable, that people actually want, that's proud to what you want to do. And like, and you actually accomplish something. And so for like the workers, it's super easy. They buy in real fast because they're like, this guy's not going to waste my time because so many other people waste their time.

Project teams, most of the time it's you, general contractors, wasting the trades time and money.

And like they don't have infinite time and money to just be at your beck and call and do whatever you want so stop power tripping and start working with people to accomplish your goals you're going to have more power than you know what to do with because your results are going to be so incredible yes really easy to get good results when you prioritize people first and like jason you said it in your tech book like everything that happens through these

systems it's people that make it happen so if you prioritize the people use processes to enable the goal. And like at some point you need to turn these buildings over so they can be used beneficially. Yeah. No one's going to fight you on that. There's no fighting on that. Yeah.

Even clients that like seeing people busy, take the time to walk with the client through the site, educate them so they can see the difference. And you can go get some contrast, go see something that's traditional, go see something where they're starting to optimize using TAC, using Scrum, using last planner system. Those project sites look and feel totally different.

Yes. there's tons of contrast and then you can implement those patterns are really easy to do and you can start to get some of those things to be more successful like everybody listening you only have so many hours in the day you only have so much energy to put into things so use it well so that you get more of what you want stop unnecessarily suffering i agree you know one of the things that's been on my mind like last night i was talking to kate and i heard micro rowe talk about and

i don't know if these numbers are correct but i saw a little youtube clip of mike rowe saying in the united states there are four million which is a lot because i think we only have 380 to 420 million people right in the united states but four million younger meaning like 18 to 30 i probably 18 to 30 year old people who can work who do not have jobs.

And are not looking for jobs and i was i was i was i was really so like when i when i look at the book out of crisis i'm like you know people talk about that that we're you know have we have a problem in our industry all industries in the united states and probably around the world maybe maybe no i'll say the united states are need to hire more people but can't hire more people and And I can't help but feel that the Japanese knew they were in crisis, but we don't.

And I could be wrong. I'm just saying, like, if we think it's bad now, I think it's going to get much worse. And hell make our Mercedes hopeful, but I think it's going to get even worse. And Kate was talking to me about housing. Like, for our kids, well, I'm starting to use my kids as an example.

And that we've got two kids at home that are 18 and 20 hard-working kids going to school but they have zero intention of leaving the house and Kate and I have zero intention of kicking them out now some people might be like well you're a bad parent and I would say yeah well what took you so long to figure that out, number one. But the bottom line is, at least in Phoenix, I can't think of a job that they could get while going to school where they could pay for or even find a house or pay for it.

Because at least in our area, these houses have been bought for Airbnbs or there's a shortage now it's all centered in multifamily and even that rent is somewhere around eighteen hundred dollars a month and the wages have not in all cases have not paced the cost of housing and so Kate was like even if you had a workforce that wanted to go work even if you motivate him even if you fixed construction how are they going

to leave the nest to go buy a house and most of these cities in the United States. And she said, because Jason, I would consider it irresponsible for us to kick out our two oldest kids knowing that they're getting straight A's in school, but there's no math that ends up with you can afford your own place right now. And so then she said this, and I don't know how true it is. I'm just saying this is what's on my mind, is that if you...

If you're not forced, like our parents were like, get up, right? You and I don't know if your parents did the same thing, but for me, they were like, you're 18, you're out. If you want to stay, you're going to work, you're going to pay rent, you're going to be in a curfew. And I was like, F that, like, I'm not, there's zero chance I'm doing these things. I'm out, right? And at my first apartment was going and living in a little guest house for my first boss.

But Kate's like, Like you can't, if there's no motivation to go fly on your own, right, until 25, 28, 30 years old, then where's the motivation to go into some of these trades, right? I can just stay at home for six, seven, eight years and go to school and then just get a job at Google, right? Right.

So I am a little panicked. And maybe this shows my bad character on my part, but I'm a little panicked because the the the way we treat people is creating is a component in the complex system that's hurting us. The way we're teaching kids in high school is hurting us. The COVID-19 and people knowing that some of them that they could subsist off the government or didn't have to go to work is hurting us.

The housing crisis is hurting us and now it's a what do they call that felipe we're self-reinforcing feedback loop right so we don't have enough people to build in construction so we don't have enough housing a lack of housing is feeding the fact that we don't have enough workers which is then feeding that we don't have enough housing and these things are starting to spiral and we're being stubborn in the united states about immigration i don't want to get on on that topic and take this episode

of the podcast and make everybody mad but like from a data standpoint if oh and recruiters are only accepting people with construction management experience and they're not accepting folks from other industries like veterans or police and these other folks so we've got at least ten major. What would you call them? System components that are working against us and they're all in self-reinforcing feedback loops. And I'm a little bit panicked. And why did I say this?

Oh, because I think the point that I'm getting from this conversation and from you is that we are going to have to start making, oh, I know what it was. I know what it was. Structural changes changes to our socioeconomic conditions, circumstances, and the system itself. And like you're talking about, when you have those projects with the perfect storm, we've got to get in there and show those as example projects and start to scale.

And I'm sorry, that took way too long. But okay, well, I just, I am a little bit panicked. Like I've, for three and a half years, you and I have been doing everything that we can. And by the way, the same thing happens with me where people are like, Jason, I don't understand you, but Felipe says it's good. Same thing happens to me. So I appreciate your partnership and your friendship and your love and miss me some hugs. We've been doing this for three and a half years with a lot of hopefulness.

And we still have that hopefulness. I do believe we're probably in a worse situation than we think.

Think and the last thing i want to say like somebody was talking last night what if, what if russia continues we have a conflict with china and iran and in israel we no longer in my opinion hal told me this let me repeat let me just not say it myself but repeat we no longer have the logistical economies of scale or the ability to produce like we did in world war ii Like I was listening to, and this is just his name, please don't get mad at me, but there's a YouTube

channel, it's called The Fat Electrician, and he tells war stories, and he's just amazing. It's the only YouTube channel other than Felipe's that I'll actually watch. And he was talking about the Berlin airlift. You remember that story where the amount, when the Soviets blockaded Berlin in order to take over, the Allied forces started shipping in supplies to keep West Berlin fed. And they had to land a plane pretty much every minute.

It and they said if in a day it would be like them airlifting 38 full-size blue whales into. The berlin airlift it was the largest logistical and humanitarian feat ever recorded in the history of of the world to their knowledge right and i was just thinking to myself like do we have that that logistical ability today to produce? Do we have the logistical ability to produce in the United States if we did go to war?

Do we have the logistical ability to even support our electrical grid, our services, or any of the, what do you call them, the systems infrastructure in our cities?

And I was in Canada, in Vancouver, and they said in Canada, the World Bank of Canada did did a study that if they doubled their production for multi-family housing or any housing whatsoever, in the next over eight years doubled the number that they're at now doubled they would barely keep up demand for housing in canada and that the numbers aren't very much different in the united states so i'm a little bit panicked what would you say to that

so all all that were you know sometimes jason i indulge in a little losing hope myself just as a thought experiment i learned from dumbing, like use some theory.

When you think back of systems thinking, yes, there are reinforcing feedback loops, but there are also... Loops outside the system that influence the system. And the things that we're doing with social media, with talking about respect, sharing our experiences are absolutely those types of things that disrupt the system that's there. And I think the crisis is that happen.

Like when, when America was thrust going back into history, like World War I, World War II, you know, you can look back at history and you can make the argument that we try to stay out of the war, get into war, whatever but we didn't have production in place to the levels that we did through the war and then ending the war all those things were changes that happened when people recognized we were in crisis we had to get into crisis

and i think you're you're right in saying most people don't recognize that things are not good yeah jason all the things you said about the housing the education the even thinking about your kids like kicking them out not kicking them out these are problems that that everybody has in this country. Yes. And that, you know, it's like on your mind. If you don't step back and see all of it together, you think like, oh, I can, I go to the store, I go to work, everything's okay.

I, you know, I read the news, the news that I want to get, I get my own news, my own echo chamber and everything's fine. But it's not when you systematically look at what's happening, like there are indicators that we're in a decline and, and people are like, well, so can you be still be hopeful? And I'm still hopeful because people are waking up every day, seeing that we're in a decline and they're not just standing still. Yeah. We're out there doing it. Like you're out there doing it.

I mean, I'm out there doing it. I'm doing the work every day in the way that I can.

Yes. And I'm not trying to say like, I'm super special. Like everybody out there who's a change maker, like you do it in your own little sphere. And if you're, if you stand and say like, I'm going to change this, like what I can control, then you're contributing to making it better. And you're not just declining with every, everything else that's declining. Like one of the things we learned, like in all these like experiments that we do have so much capability to make change.

Yeah. we can co-create with changes that are happening and we can adapt into any environment. Like the human animal is by far the most adaptive animal on the planet. No other creature on earth, except for, you know, simple creatures like bacteria and insects are all biospheres. We're in every single climate where we're like, we even shouldn't be in like Antarctica, like, but we can manage to ship things in and keep all those scientific bases operating.

So like, we're everywhere on earth because we're highly adaptive. We're in deserts. We're in the rainforests. We're in cities. We're in suburbs. We're in farmland. Antarctica. We're in Antarctica. We're on the ocean. There's people living on the oceans. We have people living in space on space stations for years at a time. Like we're everywhere. We are a capability to adapt is phenomenal.

Yeah. I think that always gives me hope. Just thinking like how adaptive we are and you can get used to things like Like the decline is so slow that you just get used to it and you don't realize like where it is until you look back or, or recognize like, is your situation getting better or worse?

And I think, you know, for people listening, if you change what you know, and you experiment like Jason and I are talking about with these concepts, you can create an environment and, uh, and then expand your network with people to get a network effect. I think the network effect, recognizing everyone that I put the moniker changemakers on on social media are people that I'm recognizing are doing this network effect and we work together and band together.

And I am fiercely protective of the people that are changemakers because every day is not a great day for us. You're actively trying to implement changes and make something different. We're going against the system. It's going to be difficult. It's going to be hard and it's going to be things when you take an action that. There will be an equal and opposite reaction for what you take. And some people can't withstand the pushback and blowback from trying to make these changes.

And that's why if you're listening out there, you're not alone. Like Jason's here, I'm here. And there's thousands of us, billions of people like us that we can stand the blowback and pushback and those first order consequences and say, we're still going to make positive change anyway. I agree.

You know, the other thing, so you're so right. Thank you for that. that's just what i needed today maybe i just get a little sad when i feel sick but you just call me more often like yeah well i was getting out of the truck in the airport just feeling a little sad about it and then i thought as i was stepping out to go to sandy or irvine i was thinking to my no riverside doesn't matter but anyway i as i stepped out i was like well.

If it does go bad we're safe because there's no way they're not going to need us you know so all all the change makers. What I hope is after listening to you, you know, everybody, every system, every person needs three things, right? The knowledge, the motivation, and the circumstances to make real change. And I, to your point, the change makers, everyone out there, people listening to these podcasts have the knowledge, they have the motivation.

And when they have the circumstances because the overall socioeconomic system is motivated to change, we'll be ready. I like it. So I just hope that we don't have to be motivated as a country or as an overall industry or as a system from a massive emergency that hurts people.

I hope the motivation comes in a more palatable way but my fear would be is that this might be a little uncomfortable but you know hey to your point our country always responds and rises to the occasion when there's a need so that's going to be realized one of these days thank you Felipe hey welcome Jason you know we're we're highly adaptive I mean even if you and I when we first started tangoing you know when we were talking we were both at crossroads when we

first started talking and we had to like jump into the unknown and then take some risks and i think you know that's the the difference between us like we look back all i look i'm looking back it was three years ago yeah four years ago i can do my math right it was three it was three you're spot on it was three years ago and you know you look at the the jump that you made you literally leaped into the abyss and you just had an intuition like i know

what this is i could just keep doing this and you You would have been fine. Or I can jump and do this, something different. And maybe I'll be fine. And I was telling you, jump. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I appreciate it. Yeah. And I said, like, even, you know, even if you jump, like, you're going to be fine because I'm going to always be here and you're always going to be here for me.

And that's how, that's how I feel. Like, we have so many people that support us and I can't even do the show and not mention, you know, one of our best friends, Brian Melcher.

Brian has been like incredible to support us both of us and and every time Brian and I talk we always talk about like how's Jason doing like and we we're worried about you and we think about you like like a brother like we should like we care yeah here worry is not the right word it's caring, right so like even even like now as you're uh you know you're fighting this cold I'm telling you to drink some tea and maybe that gets edited out but I think I've told Jason like seven times on this show to

drink some hot water yeah i'll do it i'll do it but that's my point like we care and i think you know when you look at all these things especially when you look at the news and what's happening in the world like even in world war ii there's stories of like when during the christmas soccer game that they played in oh i'm sorry world war one in trench warfare like people put their weapons down and it was the holidays and they got overcome by the holiday spirit and And they stopped

fighting and they played games. And to me, that's like, that's a signal that yes, we can do terrible things to each other, but we equally can do amazing things to each other and treat each other. Well, we have the capability for both.

Yeah. It boils down to a choice. Like you can decide how do you want to be? Do you want to create good spread love? Or do you want to be like just insular taking care of yourself? Myself and I as I've got a teenage son myself now Jason and I tell him like you know one thing I've learned over my lifetime is that these emotions that we feel as we experience things depending on your circumstance like in the moment you think like it's just all this one thing yeah reality.

Limitless like her capacity like to feel anger, is can go really high, but our capacity to feel love and care for others can go really high. It's really kind of infinite. It goes way beyond what you think. Yeah. Like you can just choose. Like I just decide a couple of things. I decide here's personal belief mantra that I'm teaching my teenager.

I will decide that no matter what situation I find myself in, I'm going to turn it to my advantage so that I can benefit and continue to move on and not get stuck i'm gonna let things flow i'm gonna prioritize flow and then take advantage of any circumstances i find myself in yeah like does that mean i don't feel feelings no i'll feel the feelings but then let them flow through me and then decide how i'm gonna proceed yeah and so it takes time so like i mean when you

look at me and my son's always like well he's like sometimes you get upset and mad but he's like nothing ever gets you down like every day is a good day for you you and it's like yeah yeah it takes it's this practice and this belief and the belief reinforces the practice and then it just makes it easier to navigate as things happen and it's choice like first it's a choice then it's a practice and then you know people even have said about uh.

Mike rother who studied toyota for a long time and he published some books with with uh with other folks like uh learning to see like a different type of value stream mapping and And I think Mike has famously said it's easier or maybe I'm giving Mike Rother credit that I shouldn't like it's easier to act your way into a new way of thinking than to think your way into a new way of acting.

Oh, wow. And I, it might've been like John shook. Now that I'm thinking about it from lean enterprise Institute, but. Either way, it's, if you do it and you'll get some time to reflect about what you're doing, that can reinforce more of the doing.

Yeah. I love it. So be present. I love that. Yeah. I just want to say like, Jason, it's been amazing having this time with you and talking and then sharing this conversation with everybody. So I just want to super thank you, all the listeners listening, like Jason is my brother from another mother. I love Jason. And so I want you to remember that, Jason. As you're traveling throughout the world, there's at least one person out here. I've got the pom-poms. I'm cheering you.

I feel the same way. I hope that people, when they go to your Scrum course, tell them when it happens this way that I was the one that pointed them there.

But I tell everyone, you've got to do it. And much more. I learned so much from you. So, Felipe, thank you. This has been awesome. Same. Jason, when I tell everybody, because I've had people ask me, like, well, how much tack do you show?

I was like well i show a couple examples from jason and i always recommend take jason's tech course it'll change your life forever and it's like scrum friendly approved yeah yeah yeah you know we learned those uh mural board techniques from your mural that's really awesome i love it.

So all right i love it thank you so much jason you know what we're going to say now at the count of three jason right yep i know what it is you count it down we'll say it one two three on we go i love it that's awesome i'm gonna stop this recording thank you so much felipe very special thanks to my guest i'm felipe engineer manriquez. The ebfc show is created by felipe and produced by a passion to build easier and better, thanks for listening Stay safe, everybody. Let's go build.