They say seeing is believing, but with Papa Murphy's Pan Pizza it's all about the tasting. You couldn't imagine such a thick, crispy crust could be so light and airy until you take a big bite out of it. You won't believe the buttery deliciousness until you experience the...yourself. And when you get to the last bite you'll think, mmmm, I want another slice. So for a limited time, take and bake any two topping pan pizza for just $11.99 from PapaMurphys.com.
The world's most exciting podcast, home of borders, language, culture, and here he is. New York Times, Best Selling Author, and National Radio Hall of Fame inductee, Michael Savage. A Michael Savage, host of the Savage Nation podcast, home of borders, language and culture. Be here, or be nowhere, the Savage Nation podcast. Catch the Michael Savage podcast on all podcast platforms every Tuesday and every Friday.
Last week on The Dropout, Elizabeth Holmes on trial. Elizabeth introduced bombshell allegations of abuse against her former boyfriend and Therano COO, Sunny Bellwani. This is a huge deal. Elizabeth Holmes is essentially alleging a decade long history of systematic abuse, sexual abuse, even physical abuse. Sunny categorically denied the claims, but will this defense strategy work? Or will jurors find it hard to square with the Elizabeth witnesses say they once knew?
It was clearly the Elizabeth show. There's no question about it. This week, we meet the 12 men and women who will ultimately decide Elizabeth's fate. From ABC Audio, this is The Dropout, Elizabeth Holmes on trial. Episode 3, The Jury. It's been a busy week in the criminal trial of Elizabeth Holmes. Outside the Robert F. Peckham Federal Courthouse, it can feel like a circus. There's a growing gaggle of media outlets from all over the world.
ABC News Field producer, Dia Athens, Ben there, showing up early each morning. I arrived around 445 to the Courthouse and there was already several media outlets doing live shots outside. Inside Judge Doveless Courtroom, it's another story. There are no cameras. They're spacing for COVID. And if you're a member of the press or someone who wants to come have a look, you need a ticket. Last week, there were only about 17 free seats. Dia's been filling on each day of jury selection.
Watching as the lawyers carefully sift through prospective jurors. So the prosecution has four attorneys that were in the courtroom. Holmes team has six attorneys. What in particular I saw was caring when I thought was a diaper bag. The Holmes team is very well put together, very polished, nice suits, nice bags, nice watches, almost like straight out of LA law. As for Elizabeth, in court, she's been poised and laser focused.
So Elizabeth sat rigid in her chair. She took handwritten notes. She turned her shoulders and literally crained her whole neck and body around when the potential jurors were entering the courtroom. So she could try to make eye contact with them. A panel of 240 potential jurors were initially summoned to complete questionnaires. Michael Rockefforte was one of them. Juror number 78.
I'm reading over this and I'm like, wait a second. I'm not really being called in for this. This is like a huge case. Michael made it through the first round, along with 132 other prospective candidates. But he says the even bigger surprise came when he showed up for jury selection and saw Elizabeth standing right at the courthouse entrance. And at first I didn't know if it was her or not because obviously she had the mask on.
So across my mind is that her she was kind of just like staring at all the jurors as they walked in looking as if she's about agreed us or something. Once inside the courtroom, Michael was called up to the podium for individual questioning by Judge Davila. Michael says even then he could feel Elizabeth staring.
That's when I it really kind of hit me because she was probably five feet away. And I'm like, I'm supposed to say all this stuff like right in front of her when she was kind of looking at us. It just felt very kind of bewildering and it's just like I'm not really sure what she's going for here. She seemed confident, poised, even like a little bit intense. And then Judge Davila's questioning started.
I told them what I do for work and the challenges that it would pose just because it would be difficult to do my job. While having to avoid a major new story basically. Michael works as a producer for a radio station in San Francisco. He even made a joke about how frequently Theranos comes up. And I'm looking at my computer and it's just Theranos Theranos Theranos. And I'd be like, oh crap, what am I supposed to do? I would say that was kind of the gist of it. I didn't say it all crap though.
It was pretty clear to Judge Davila, Michael wasn't going to be a good fit. He said something to the effect of I'm not 100% sure if you're right for this trial. Is that fair to say? And I was just like, yes. Came off a little bit matter of fact. I wasn't trying to like sound any kind of way or like be funny in any kind of way. But that drew like little chuckles from the crowd.
And actually at that point Elizabeth Holmes kind of looked back at me and chuckled herself when we like made eye contact for a second. What was that like? I kind of felt like I had already locked eyes with her once or twice already. So I was kind of like whatever about it. But yeah, it was kind of funny. I was just like whatever I'm out of here. So Michael left court with a great story of his own. So now that you're on the other side of this, what does your boss say?
He thought it was really cool. We've just been making jokes like we should have thrown you in the press box and just stuff like that. So he thought it was really cool. Even in the midst of this high-stakes selection, Judge Davila kept things light. Here's Dia Athan again. He's a real friendly guy, very personable with the jurors. He seemed to really care about how comfortable they were. He could engage them and tell little stories about himself.
And it seemed to help break the ice with establishing a rapport with all these panelists. Dia witnessed the whole process and saw other candidates dismissed for a variety of reasons. One potential juror said they remember Holmes has a penchant for black turtlenecks. Another woman talked about how she saw some funny memes on Miss Holmes. Another woman who was eventually dismissed works in a health-carry-related field. And she said that she was just disappointed by this case.
Because there's just not many women who get to become CEOs of high-powered companies. In this case, the jockeying to construct the ideal jury started months before the trial began. When Tim Elizabeth proposed a questionnaire, 45 pages and 112 questions long to weed people out. Jury selection is a little bit of a misnomer. The process is really a process of deselection. James McGarity is a professional jury consultant. He's not involved with the Holmes trial.
But he's been hired by many big-name defense teams to whittle down the best prospects for their side. I work on a lot of cases that involve, you know, Fortune 500 companies who are involved in high-stakes litigation, monopoly claims, patent disputes, criminal cases. And it turns out crafting the perfect jury is big business. A jury consultant can obtain an hourly rate of anywhere between 400 to $600 an hour.
How much money would a jury consultant cost for a case like the trial of Elizabeth Holmes? It could be anywhere from $50 to $150,000. It just would depend on their rates. It might even be more than that. In their proposed questionnaire, the defense was looking for incredibly detailed answers to things like, do you use social media? How frequently? Have you ever posted messages, comments, or opinions on websites, social media, or blogged?
They wanted to ask candidates to detail any medications they take that might impact their ability to serve on a jury. And offered Xanax as an example of something that could make you sleepy. The prosecution called the whole thing far too long, deeply intrusive and unnecessary ways, argumentative, and repetitive. And the judge agreed in some regards, shaving down the actual questionnaire to about 28 pages and 68 questions long. In a lot of high stakes cases, that's standard operating procedure.
We always ask for more questions than we expect to have remain. And there's also some force training that goes between both sides. We'll keep this question if you allow us to keep this question. It's a negotiation. The final questionnaire especially focused on each candidate's media diet, including whether they'd watched, listened to, or were even told about work like this podcast, the dropout, and our ABC 2020 documentary.
Candidates had to circle the names of reporters on a list, mine included, if they followed us in any way. So I disclosed that I listened to the dropout podcast on a road trip. I read lots of articles on the case. Kimi Mustafa was prospective juror number 116. I saw the name and immediately I was like, oh, it's this case. This is a big case. It was a little bit surreal. Her knowledge of the story almost certainly ruled her out.
Most of the coverage that I had seen about Elizabeth Holmes and Theronos had not been positive. So I'll say going in that that was my biased opinion. Obviously I would have evaluated the case with the evidence as presented. But going in that was kind of my biases was, you know, she had engaged in some shady behavior with and the company that the science wasn't all there.
Kimi's background also posed a problem in terms of her potential bias, considering Elizabeth's attorney's plan to focus on abuse and her defense. So I work for a nonprofit legal aid organization. I'm a family law attorney and I represent survivors of domestic violence, sexual assault and human trafficking.
That's interesting. Did you see any of the news that came out about Elizabeth Holmes and what her team intends to argue? I would imagine that would be especially, I mean, relevant to you given your work. Yes. So that's why I wanted to make that full disclosure and let them know that I did hear about this strategy and let them evaluate what they thought that I would be a good juror for this case, considering my background.
And while the biggest concern was finding unbiased jurors, Kimi says she was surprised at how many people apparently said they'd never heard of Elizabeth Holmes. I just remember that a whole half of the room, there was nobody who said that they even, you know, had consumed any news about the case or had any knowledge about the case.
Kimi also says she had a very different experience than Michael in court with Elizabeth. Did you ever make eye contact or see her making eye contact with other jurors? No, I wouldn't say that. It's interesting. I spoke to a potential juror who was dismissed, who talked about a lot of eye contact with Elizabeth. I had no eye contact with her and I didn't see her making eye contact with anybody while I was there.
One other thing stood out to Kimi. I was the only black person in the entire courtroom. So I can say there's unlikely to be any black people on the jury, but I think that's probably just the makeup of Silicon Valley. During a sidebar conversation without the jurors present, US prosecuting attorney Jeffrey Shank wanted it on the record that the defense had been releasing many non-white jurors. The defense insisted that race had nothing to do with their dismissals.
Defense lead attorney Kevin Downey said, I just want to disassociate myself in strong terms with Mr. Shank's comments. Here's jury consultant James McGarrity. Is this a shocking sort of back and forth or is this standard for what goes on in these cases? Pretty stand what he's raising is an issue called a batson challenge where it's impermissible for attorneys to strike jurors from a pool based on race alone.
So here it's probably something that he wants on the record in case the trial doesn't go his way so he can raise this as an appeal issue. But James doesn't actually think race would play a huge role here. Race and gender alone are typically poor predictors of whether a jurors favorable or unfavorable far more reliable predictor are attitudes, beliefs, and life experiences.
And those things are more reliable as predictors because those are things that filter the way that human beings take in information. It was clear from the selection process the government and team Elizabeth have very different ideas about who will make the ideal juror according to defense attorney Dick to Garen who's currently representing accused murderer Robert Durst the government's best candidate would look something like this.
The money that has absolutely no empathy for a person that's in trouble and someone that wants to enforce the law no matter what without any human understanding that people aren't perfect. Probably wants people that have lost money on investments with some company that's gone bust defense attorney Jose bias who's represented everyone from Casey Anthony to white collar criminals says the government's goal is to pack the jury with the law and order crowd.
People who like to play it safe and people who have been wronged in the medical profession and are displeased with the current care that we receive and the way the system is set up. You don't want any mavericks or visionaries on your jury if you're a prosecutor. As for the defense, Jose says he'd be looking for people who might be able to put themselves in Elizabeth shoes.
A small business owner or someone who has started their own business. I think that would be huge because you want people who have the audacity to take a chance to risk their livelihood on something that's unproven. And at the same time they could relate to having bad people working for you or sometimes things that are outside of your control and then sometimes your own lack of knowledge in a certain area. Here's what jury consultant James McGarrity had to say.
The ideal juror for Elizabeth Holmes would be someone who would look up to her or find her to be a lightable kind of person who admires and identifies with Elizabeth Holmes or has either personally or knows someone close to them who believes they have been wrongfully prosecuted in a case. So they just have a general mistrust of government or authority figures. And if you were the government, who would be your ideal juror?
My ideal juror would be people with a victim mentality, people who are what we call law and order types who invest a lot of faith in the law and law enforcement, people who believe that charges against someone like Miss Holmes would not be brought unless there is solid evidence.
Hey, this is Brad Milke, I host ABC's Daily News Podcast Start here. The dropout will be back in a minute. But first, after a break in or any sort of security issue around the house, the first question is often, is there any security cam footage of the incident? When you're able to go back and see exactly who did it and when, it can really give you that extra help in your moment of crisis and because of that, it can really give you peace of mind.
Well, for that peace of mind, enter simply safe. Simply safe is advanced home security that puts you first by offering affordable home monitoring and live guard protection that can respond within moments of an intrusion. And unlike so many subscription plans, this does not lock you into some long term commitment you can cancel any time without penalty. Talk about confidence.
By partnering with Simply Safe, so many people have gotten that peace of mind. So let's get you some too. Get an exclusive 20% off any new Simply Safe system when you sign up for fast protect monitoring. Just visit SimplySafe.com slash dropout that's SimplySafe.com slash dropout. There's no safe, like SimplySafe. Tuesdays at Papa Murphy's you can get large signature or thin crust pizzas for just $12. We call it TakenBake Tuesday. Talking $12, TakenBake Tuesday? That's today's topic.
It's terrific for tuning up a tiring Tuesday through a tasty $12 treat. Truthfully, TakenBake Tuesday tops tossing back tacos. Tell that taco to hit the trail. It's TakenBake Tuesday's time to triumph. Time out. This is turning into a tongue twister. Totally Tiss. So just try TakenBake for $12 every Tuesday at Papa Murphy's. Change the way you pizza. This is Brad Milky from the ABC News podcast Start Here. As hard as it is to imagine, family doctors used to frequently make house calls.
Like if you were sick, they would pack up their little black doctors bag and they would come to your home to examine you. Those days seem long gone, but one company is giving new meaning to the term house call. Tell a doc health. You can choose a board certified doctor that's right for you and get primary care from the comfort of your own home. Connect via phone or online with a board certified doctor who will get to know you and provide whole person care.
Advice prescriptions, even mental health support and referrals. Tell a doc health is not only convenient, it's affordable too, and it's covered by a surprising number of insurance plans. Download the app to get started today or go online to register or schedule a visit at teladochealth.com. That's teladoc. T-E-L-A-D-O-C-Health.com. What time is it? It's harvest time.
Join Sarah Jessica Parker in the ultimate challenge of Solitaire Grand Harvest. Experience the thrill of strategic play as you navigate through exciting levels and reap the rewards of your skills. Are you prepared to crack the cards and harvest your way to victory? Okay, now let's crack the cards. Enjoy a head start with 10,000 free coins. Download Solitaire Grand Harvest now and harvest the rewards. It's free, available for download on Google Play and the App Store.
I want to invite you to start your day with us. Every morning on Start Here, we dive deep into the biggest news stories with some of the best journalists in the world. It's smart, it's relevant, and maybe most importantly for you, it's quick. Again, that's Start Here, the daily podcast from ABC News, available wherever you listen.
Both the prosecution and the defense fought hard to have their ideal juror selected. And now we know who they'll actually be, seven men and five women, ranging in age from 19 to about 60. Most didn't speak much or at all in court during the selection process. And Kimi was right, there aren't no black jurors or alternates. Of the 12 jurors, six are white, four are Hispanic, and two are Asian. There are also two jurors in that group who disclosed English was not their first language.
One selected jurors said she used translation software on her phone to understand some of the words in the questionnaire. In addition, there are five alternates. Here's ABC Field producer, Dia Athan again. The youngest at 19 is a recent high school graduate of Homestead High School in Cupertino. She's actually getting her braces off in two weeks. Two of the male jurors have long gray ponytails and one of them sighed, oh boy, when he was selected.
Another juror, maybe in his late 20s, early 30s, or a sleek Tesla hoodie and a black mask with a Tesla logo, which just screened we're in Silicon Valley. So will it matter this jury tilts more male than female? James McGarrity, the jury consultant, had this to say. If I was on Elizabeth Holmes's team, I would probably not be thrilled that older males are more prevalent in the jury panel than others.
I would probably prefer to have more females who are younger and would identify with her and would look up to her and would hold her to a lower standard and be more inclined to believe her case story that she was manipulated by her partner's study. I just think she would have a harder time convincing older white males. That was the case. But jury consulting is more art than science. We also spoke to Natalie Davis, a jury consultant and professor emerita at Birmingham Southern College.
She thinks female jurors might generally be less sympathetic to Elizabeth. Women don't trust other women. One example I can give you, I was the jury consultant in the very first major case on breast implants. The female jury just dumps all over her. How stupid could she be? And I think that women are going to be hard on this case. Not all of them obviously, but that's a factor. Natalie says it could depend on how Elizabeth presents herself in court.
There are two Elizabeths. There's the Steve Jobs Elizabeth, strong, determined, ready to go, and then there's the little girl Elizabeth. And I think the defense would more likely want to present her as vulnerable and the question is will the jury buy that defense? I think that women are much more likely not to believe Elizabeth to be a weak person. And how might the age of each juror play into all this? For example, that 19 year old. Here's James McGarity.
A younger jury may not have a lot of faith in law enforcement. They have had negative experiences with law enforcement. Natalie Davis agrees. Young jurors could work in Elizabeth's favor, but for a different reason. I think younger jurors are going to be much more sympathetic to her. I think that younger jurors appreciate innovation, technology, entrepreneurship in a way that older jurors might not. And I think that both well from its homes.
While many jurors said they'd never heard of Theranos or Elizabeth Holmes before, one said he'd watched a 60 minutes piece a few years ago. How's that going to play? Well, knowing that someone has watched this 60 minutes episode about Elizabeth Holmes tells me that they very likely have stronger opinions about the case. You know, more than that, maybe stronger leaders in deliberations.
Two women, one selected as a juror and another as an alternate, disclosed they'd witnessed domestic violence growing up. Something James thinks would favor the defense and potentially help Elizabeth. If part of her story is going to be she was controlled by her partner and had very little room to make decisions on her own, that's a juror who would identify with that and understand that it may be more inclined to argue on her behalf. And may understand that circumstance better than others.
And finally, none of this happened inside a vacuum. COVID is still a consideration. And both sides agreed to eliminate unvaccinated candidates from the pool, which could play out in some interesting ways. Those who say I'm not getting vaccinated, because I don't trust this, it doesn't work, it'll make me sick, all of those kinds of folks. They're ones who just don't trust government. That would constitute a problem, I think, for the prosecution.
However, they're not going to be selected, because they've already been dismissed. Now the prosecution won't have to worry about that. But Natalie Davis also believes getting rid of anti-authority jurors could also be a win for the defense. Ms. Holmes created a board of directors for her company. And the names are names you know, and the Kissinger, Rupert Murdoch, the General Mathis, a whole lot of the elite. Did you have a relationship with Harry Kissinger before he joined the board?
No. Who introduced you to him? Jerusalem. And the folks who don't trust government, don't trust institutions, they don't believe the elite is trustworthy. And remember, in this same vein, Judge Davila also ruled the jury will hear details of Elizabeth's elite lifestyle, which defense attorney Caroline Polisi feels could hurt her.
To let in some generalizations about her luxurious lifestyle and, you know, the private jets and all the fancy vacations, I think that it really is going to have an effect on the jury. It's a win for the prosecution to get in any of this evidence, frankly, because what that does is separates the jurors from the defendant, because it's so out of this world, so unrelatable, so unlike anything they've likely ever experienced. But they're going to really see her as an other.
That's the first sort of step on the road towards getting a conviction when the jury can't identify themselves with the defendant. So which side got its ideal jury? It's still hard to tell. Both the government and team Elizabeth have their work cut out. For the next 13 weeks until mid-December, jurors will hear evidence Tuesday, Wednesday, and Friday. Judge Davila says he'll shorten the days to fight juror fatigue.
But one thing is for sure. Next week is crucial. A moment both sides need to nail. Coming up on the dropout, Elizabeth Holmes on trial, the attorneys set the stage. I think opening statements are very important. You have the jury's attention. They don't go to sleep in an opening statement. They're alert. They're ready to go. They want to hear what you have to say. You know, the importance can't be overstated of opening arguments.
It's the only time that the attorney gets to talk directly to the jurors. It is a time when you are allowed much more leeway in terms of setting up your case. You don't want to over-promise and under-deliver. That's really the kiss of death. And you want to lay out in really simple, clear, inconseist terms. What you are going to do in terms of putting on your case.
Some at the end, in your closing argument, you can come back and say, you know, I told you in the beginning of this case that I was going to do this, this, and this. And here's how I did it. Elizabeth Holmes and Sunny Belwani did not respond or declined to comment for this podcast. The dropout Elizabeth Holmes on trial is written and reported by Victoria Thompson, Taylor Dunn, and me. Victoria is the executive producer, Taylor and I are the producers.
For ABC audio, Susie Lewis producer, and Madeline Wood, and Marlowe Milwaukee are associate producers. Our field producer is Dia Athan. For ABC's business unit, our associate producer is Victor Ardonia's, and our production assistant is Lane Wynn. Mixing and scoring is by Susie Liu and Evan Viola. Evan also composed the music for the dropout. Our artwork is by Teddy Blanks at Chips & Y, and Cedric Constat.
For ABC audio, Liz Alessie is executive producer. Special thanks to Josh Cohan, Elizabeth Russo, Ian Rosenberg, Eric Avram, and Stacia D'Sheeshko. Be sure to subscribe to the dropout podcast, and if you like what you heard, leave us a review. It really does help. We'll send you new episodes every Tuesday.