What time is it? It's harvest time! Join Syracisica Parker in the ultimate challenge of Solitaire Grand Harvest! Experience the thrill of strategic play as you navigate through exciting levels and reap the rewards of your skills. Are you prepared to crack the cards and harvest your way to victory? Okay, now let's crack the cards. Enjoy a head start with 10,000 free coins! Download Solitaire Grand Harvest now and harvest the rewards.
It's free, available for download on Google Play and the App Store. Previously on The Dropout, Elizabeth Holmes on trial. We heard opening statements from the prosecution and defense, both sides setting the stage for the course of this trial. It's the old adage, you know, first impressions are everything. This week we hear from one of the whistleblowers who originally set Elizabeth's downfall in motion. It really started to eat me up inside and that's what led me to file a complaint.
And the intimidation tactics she says they were no-semployed to try to secure her silence. They showed up to my work and it scared my own co-workers. They were curious like why has this guy just been sitting outside of our lab? Plus, a mysterious man named Hanson causes quite the stir. When we found out who he was, we just we couldn't believe it. From ABC Audio, this is The Dropout, Elizabeth Holmes on trial.
Episode 5, Mystery Men As the ancient legal maxim famously goes, justice delayed is justice denied. Whoever originally made the pronouncement, which dates back to the 17th century, clearly hadn't anticipated the rise of COVID. Barely three weeks into the criminal trial of Elizabeth Holmes, a juror, number nine, alerted the court he might have been exposed. That meant the proceedings had to be postponed until he came back with two negative tests, a foreboding sign of things to come.
In the downtime, reporters began comparing notes. As it turned out, many of us had met a strange figure who started lingering outside the courthouse during jury selection. He was a balding man with rectangular framed glasses, wearing a blue quilted Patagonia coat with cacky pants and a black surgical mask. He was friendly, striking up conversations with a lot of reporters as we waited in line to go inside, including Good Morning America Booker, Miles Cohen.
I was thinking to myself, everybody else has kind of told me their publication, their name. So I went up to them and I said, what's your name? He said Hanson. What's yours? And so I told him Miles. And he said, Miles, that's a cool name. I thought, you know, that's a nice thing to say, right? You too. I've really never met a Hanson before. And, you know, I guess in hindsight, I still haven't. ABC Field producer, Dia Athan also met the mystery man.
So the first day of jury selection, I was the first one to arrive at the courthouse. It was early. It was like 5 a.m. I went up to him. I asked him, I said, hi, are you a journalist or your reporter? And he said, no, and I said, oh, okay. So what brings you here? And he just kind of shrugged his shoulders and just said that he was interested in the case. I actually thought it was a little like, wow, okay, you're getting up this early to come stand online, to get him to watch jury selection.
I was kind of more surprised that a member of the public was interested in doing that. Hanson told reporters he fixed up old cars. When asked if he had a connection to Elizabeth, he told NPR's Bobby Allen, do I know her? Does anyone know her? What does it even mean to know someone these days? I remember him telling us Elizabeth and I are the only two people here not getting paid. Once in the courtroom, the peculiar figure appeared again this time in a gray suit.
Miles Cohen was shocked by what he saw. I look up from my seat and in the front row of the court, you know, right behind the defense table, is this man with the same heroine, the same glasses, and I realized that no way, that is Hanson. And he's wearing a really nice suit and I couldn't believe it. The guy, calling himself Hanson, sat down right next to Elizabeth's mom. I realized that it was Billy Evans' dad, Bill Evans, the hotelier.
Yup, Hanson was none other than Bill Evans, the father of Elizabeth's partner, Billy. I was in the elevator at the time when a reporter asked him, are you a mole? And, you know, he fired right back, I have a mole or something. So when I found out about, you know, his real identity, I went up to him and I said, well, look at you. And I could tell under his mask he was smiling and he even said to me,
he said, I'm smiling under my mask. So I know he kind of felt good about pulling off this little crew. What did this powerful hotel magnet, a prominent figure in San Diego and the grandfather to Elizabeth's newborn son, possibly hoped to accomplish from such a bizarre stunt? Honestly, it's hard for me to get into his mind as to what he was thinking doing that. It just strikes me as being bizarre and not helpful. Kathy Fleming is a federal defense attorney and former US prosecutor.
I went from being in the government to being someone who now fights the government every chance I get. If you're Elizabeth's attorney and you find out he did that, what do you say? I have a very stern talk with him and explain that I think it's very detrimental to Elizabeth. And the best way they can help is to behave appropriately. And then I asked that the father never come near the courthouse again. And it's possible that's exactly the advice he got.
The next time Elizabeth showed up at court, on Tuesday, September 14, Bill Evans or Hanson was nowhere to be seen. Instead, Elizabeth walked in holding her mother's hand. Back inside the courtroom, Judge Dovela continued to run an orderly ship, something litigator, Jay Adelson, the founder and CEO of Edelson PC, who the New York Times has called Silicon Valley's most hated plaintiffs lawyer, says Dovel is known for.
Adelson's been following the trial each step of the way and says he's keenly interested in its outcome. The defendants we generally go up against are the Facebooks of the world, Twitter, Apple, all of them. And as a result, we are intimately familiar with the culture of Silicon Valley, both the incredible benefits and also just how scary it is and how it is led to so many abuses and, you know, Theranos specifically is such a window into the underbelly of Silicon Valley.
He says Judge Dovela is known in the valley as being a fair and good natured jurist, something that could impact the outcome of this trial. I've been before Judge Dovela a lot. He's got a really interesting combination of being a very smart, thoughtful, decisive judge. And we've seen that already. When their objections made, he rules right away. He's had to deal with some very tricky issues regarding jury members.
Tricky issues beyond just COVID. Recall, for example, jury number seven, the 19-year-old who said she wouldn't be paid by her employer during jury duty. Judge Dovela ultimately excused her for financial hardship. She was replaced with an alternate, jury number 79. A white man who appears to be in his late 50s or early 60s. Then came another curve ball.
Jure number 12 disclosed she'd briefly worked at KPMG. Theranos' former accounting firm, a possible conflict of interest, even though she never personally worked on the Theranos account. Judge Dovela delicately put the matter before the attorneys. Could they keep Jure 12? Neither side objected. Edelsson says that bedside manner, the connection and trust Judge Dovela is already building with the Jures will have an impact.
What happens in these types of trials when you're going on for 13 weeks and the Jures aren't even allowed to speak to each other. They're not allowed to speak to the outside world about the case. They start bonding with the judge. He's just a great guy. He's not arrogant. He's not an elitist. I think they're really going to start looking to him. And I already see that the lawyers are starting to reflect back his personality.
As for those 12 Jures, it's now eight men and four women. And hopefully there won't be too many more hiccups. The government star witness this week was Erica Chung. You may remember Erica from the first season of the dropout. She was one of the original Theranos whistleblowers. And you could feel the weight of her testimony in the courtroom. According to ABC field producer, Dia Affen.
When Erica took the stand, she was a breath of fresh air. You could tell the jury was engaged, paying attention. It appeared like they're listening more closely. Her stories were interesting. Erica started working at Theranos fresh out of UC Berkeley, where she double majored in molecular and cellular biology and linguistics. Recording aren't allowed in the courtroom. So everything you're about to hear comes from our conversation with Erica for the first season of the dropout.
But much of it echoes what she sat on the stand. Erica told the court she was star struck when she first met Elizabeth Holmes. I was probably the first person to really like drink the cool late and I had read all the articles about Elizabeth Holmes and was completely infatuated about this amazing female entrepreneur who had dropped out of Stanford and started her own company. Elizabeth had just been named one of the women of the year by glamour magazine.
I am so incredibly humbled and so honored to be with this incredible group of women. Introduced by Academy Award-winning actor Jared Leto. Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome the only person I know who makes me feel like a lazy bastard, Elizabeth Holmes. But once Erica started the job, she said she quickly became disillusioned by what she saw inside of Theranos. Erica spoke knowingly and animatedly to the court about quality control failures.
They were par for the course, she said. And Theranos would frequently cherry pick data, deleting any two data points that would not hit the metrics we needed. This is what she told us would happen when they'd run a quality control test.
They kept failing, I kept running it over and over and over and how it was handled totally blew me away. And so essentially how it got resolved is they took out data points and they said, oh, well, this is like the best two out of six the way that we kind of average things. So you're saying essentially that you were cherry picking exactly the information in order to make the information make sense.
Right. When assessing the effectiveness of the blood testing machines, she testified, you would have the same luck flipping a coin as to whether your results were right or wrong. Their quality controls were failing at one point, what seemed almost every day. Prosecutor John Bostic also included a damning statistic as he questioned Erica. He told jurors in March 2014, 25.6% of Theranos quality control assay tests failed. So about one in four tests was failing.
Yes, Erica testified. That was pretty standard for Theranos. On the other hand, it was very uncommon for those tests to fail on non Theranos devices. Erica also discussed some of the personal sacrifices she says she and other workers made employees, including herself, sometimes donated their own blood to Theranos in exchange for cash to conduct tests for research studies.
When Theranos ran tests on her blood, Erica told the court they came back showing she had a vitamin D deficiency, something that never showed up on traditional tests. Erica even described to the court how employees would sleep in their cars because it took so long to calibrate the machines when they routinely failed. They would literally work around the clock, she said.
Jurors seemed to be hanging on every word of her testimony, but perhaps the most crucial piece came when Erica described what she says happened when she dared to speak up. She told the court former president and COO Sonny Bellwani be raided and ridiculed her. Here she is again in our interview.
The reception that I got was basically you need to sit down and keep your mouth shut and you don't know what you're talking about and you need to do the job that I hired you for, which is process patient samples. But it went beyond that. When Erica decided to quit her job, seeing the culture as antithetical to her values, she said Theranos had her followed.
She said she was terrified. They showed up to my work and had someone sit outside my work at my new job and it scared my own co-workers with they were curious like why has this guy just been sitting outside of our lab for such a long time that they had waited to walk me to my car because I was the last one working that night.
It was the same story Erica told us many years ago as she left the office Erica said a man walked out of an SUV and handed her an intimidating letter from Theranos attorney and board member David Boyce threatening a lawsuit. Dear Miss Chung, this firm represents Theranos Inc. We have reason to believe that you have disclosed certain of the company's trade secrets and other confidential information without authorization. That letter was terrifying to a then 23 year old Erica.
It was super paranoid and had a burner phone and was absolutely scared and terrified. Probably had like $5,000 in my bank account was thinking how am I going to pay for a lawyer to defend myself against this. But the lawsuit wasn't even her biggest concern as Erica told us. It was very bizarre because the letter that they had addressed was an address no one knew I was living at. It was a temporary home so it freaked me out like are they following me? How did they figure out where I lived?
Because even my own mother had not known this address about Erica. Erica consulted a lawyer who advised her to report what she'd witnessed to regulators. So she wrote her own letter. This one nearly 1800 words long to the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services. She detailed what she says she experienced inside of Theranos. The major stability, precision and accuracy problems. It would prove devastating.
Hey, this is Brad Milke. I host ABC's Daily News Podcast. Start here. The dropout will be back in a minute. But first. Seeking the truth never gets old. Introducing June's Journey, the free to play mobile game that will immerse you in a thrilling murder mystery. Join June Parker as she uncovers hidden objects and clues to solve her sister's death in a beautifully illustrated world set in the roaring 20s. With new chapters added every week, the excitement never ends.
Download June's Journey now on your Android or iOS device or play on PC through Facebook games. This is Brad Milke from the ABC News Podcast. Start here. As hard as it is to imagine, family doctors used to frequently make house calls. Like if you were sick, they would pack up their little black doctor's bag and they would come to your home to examine you. Those days seem long gone.
But one company is giving new meaning to the term house call. Tell a doc health. You can choose a board certified doctor that's right for you and get primary care from the comfort of your own home. Connect via phone or online with a board certified doctor who will get to know you and provide whole person care. Advice, prescriptions, even mental health support and referrals. Tell a doc health is not only convenient, it's affordable too, and it's covered by a surprising number of insurance plans.
Download the app to get started today or go online to register or schedule a visit at teladochealth.com. That's teladoc. T-E-L-A-D-O-C-Health.com I want to invite you to start your day with us every morning on Start Here. We dive deep into the biggest news stories with some of the best journalists in the world. It's smart, it's relevant, and maybe most importantly for you, it's quick. Again, that Start Here, the daily podcast from ABC News, available wherever you listen.
Listening to Erica talk about this terrifying ordeal, the jurors seemed riveted. This young woman, fresh out of school, said she'd seen something wrong. And despite the potential personal costs, she found the courage to do the right thing and spoke up. One juror even took notes, something rare so far during this trial. Jay Adelson says it was a critical moment for the government's argument.
This idea that Elizabeth Holmes was this, you know, innocent little flower, but when you get into the details, and how harshly they treated anybody who spoke up, this is one of the really bad facts for Holmes defense team. Which may be why the defense fought so hard to keep the story about surveillance, the letter from David Boyz out of Erica's testimony. Their objections were overruled.
I really think it ends the debate about whether Elizabeth Holmes really was innocent and the more that we get into, have indicative she and Theronos were, it really undercuts to any argument that we need to feel sympathy for Holmes. That was the stuff just when I was getting into this case that really got me upset. And that's what I look for when I'm thinking about how to present a case to a jury.
What's the stuff where where I look and I go, I'm mad here. I don't get mad in the same way when I hear that multi-millionaire investors lost some money. That, you know, they shouldn't be defrauded, but when I feel that boil the blood moment, that's the stuff I want to really focus on with the jury. And this probably isn't the last we'll hear of it because Erica's testimony didn't just raise questions about Elizabeth.
It also raised questions about another witness the government may eventually call. David Boyce, the man who wrote Erica that threatening letter, one of the leading trial attorneys of his time. He represented Al Gore in the presidential recount of 2000. He later helped pioneer the legalization of gay marriage, but he's also known as an intimidating corporate litigator. And he was the long time attorney of Harvey Weinstein. Here's Jay Adelson again.
I know David Boyce, well, 10 years ago, he was considered one of the top five lawyers in the country. He had as much respect as anybody. And I don't know what what has happened to him, but he has turned into this ultimate fixer. He's kind of turned himself from one of the great attorneys into a souped up, more intelligent version of Michael Cohen. The government has also produced a paper trail to back up Erica's claims.
They entered into evidence to Theranos issued checks made out to private investigators, totaling a little over $150,000. Theranos's own internal vendor spreadsheet calls the expense each young and Tyler Schultz project as in Erica Chung and Tyler Schultz. The other well-known whistleblower in this case, who also said he was followed. These are ordinary people who were speaking up. They were right about this. And David Boyce has an incredible amount of power.
It is not something that is good for the profession. I think that's a total mess, mess for him, and it's a total mess for Elizabeth Holmes as well. And he thinks it'll be important for the court to hear how David Boyce answers for himself. I cannot wait for David Boyce to testify, because I want an explanation. And I don't know. He's very smart, Laura. I don't know how he talks this way out of this one. We're also likely to hear from another former colleague of Boyce, Heather King.
King worked with Boyce before joining Theranos as its in-house counsel. After Theranos dissolved, she went back to his law firm. But just days before opening statements, Boyce Schiller-Flexner removed Heather King from its website. She also deleted her LinkedIn profile. After several inquiries, the firm responded, Heather had taken an in-house position, which they said she'd considered doing for a long time. Erica Chung finished her testimony after three days on the stand.
In cross-examination, the defense focused on the fact she was junior, and they said, far removed from Elizabeth. The defense also tried to distance Elizabeth from Erica's claims about the troubled technology inside of Theranos. They said Elizabeth never signed off on the problematic validation reports. Instead, the lab director and Theranos Vice President did. It wasn't a confrontational cross-examination. In fact, there were times that even came across as friendly.
At one point, Elizabeth's attorney, Lance Wade, told Erica not to sell herself short. In the end, Erica looked exhausted, but it was clear her testimony was impactful. That was just very, very powerful to have this young woman testifying against her former boss. And somebody who she really, truly admired, and she believed in, and now she's sitting there, one of the people who brought down Elizabeth Holmes and Theranos as a witness, testifying against this woman. And that's the thing.
Elizabeth, of course, was in the courtroom the whole time Erica testified. Erica seemingly did her best not to make eye contact and to stay focused on the task at hand. But Elizabeth, sitting just a few feet away, kept her eyes on Erica. If the jury was left questioning whether Erica actually was too junior to know what she said she saw inside of Theranos, the government's next witness, Shereka Ganga Headcar, was meant to dispel that doubt.
Shereka is a former manager of assay systems at Theranos. She was granted full criminal immunity by the government, and unlike Erica, reported directly to Elizabeth Holmes. Shereka was steadfast on the stand, telling the jury she didn't think Theranos' devices were ready to be used for patient samples when they went live inside of Walgreens. Reading from multiple emails, prosecutors presented backup for Shereka's claims.
In one from September 2013, the same month as the Walgreens launch, Shereka is informed that over 20 machines have failed. Specifically, 15 had error readings, three seemed to suddenly shut down, and two were hauled away to a separate location. Shereka even sent Elizabeth emails detailing numerous failures with Theranos' devices. But Elizabeth, Shereka said in her testimony, directly pressured staff to make the Walgreens roll out happen anyway.
Shereka said Elizabeth told her she'd quote, promise to deliver to the customers and didn't have much of a choice than to go ahead with the launch. Ms. Holmes said she didn't have much of a choice, prosecuting attorney Robert Leach asked? Yes, Shereka replied. When prosecutors asked Shereka where this pressure to move forward before Theranos was ready was coming from, she didn't hesitate. From Ms. Holmes, she said.
Shereka decided to quit, telling the court she was stressed and unhappy and concerned with the way the launch was going, knowing that there were reliability issues. She printed out the email correspondence and other documents, even though it may have been a violation of a non-disclosure agreement she'd signed. I was scared that things would not go well, and I was also worried that I would be blamed, she testified.
The government introduced some other striking pieces of evidence this week, including Theranos' internal financial documents and its 2015 tax return. They gave Jura's an idea of where the money was flowing and how much the company struggled financially. Like for example, in 2015, when Theranos was facing mounting losses, more than $500 million at that point. But at the same time, Elizabeth gave herself a $200,000 raise and was flying around on private jets.
They wanted to show at the time that Elizabeth Holmes started this campaign of lies that what was going on in the company. I think that a lot of it got lost in the weeds. I'd be surprised that really resonated with the jury. But what did come out, which was very clear, was the company was under severe financial distress, it wasn't making money, it was losing hundreds of millions of dollars. During that time, Elizabeth Holmes was flying on private jets around the country.
And I think their point is that created a type of desperation, which explains to all the other actions. But Jay Edelsen warns prosecutors have to be careful about going too deep with some of these more complex topics. I'm a little bit concerned that the prosecutors are kind of falling into this trap, explaining some very hard science, and then also explaining some very difficult financial issues.
Even for me, and I had to read the transcript a couple times to really understand what they were saying. And the idea that a lay jury is going to easily be able to assimilate 13 weeks of trial testimony over some very difficult issues is that's going to be the big challenge by the prosecutors that are fenced. I mean, so smart, just saying, oh, they're just going to bore you to death. Seeking the truth never gets old.
Introducing June's Journey, the free-to-play mobile game that will immerse you in a thrilling murder mystery. Join June Parker as she uncovers hidden objects and clues to solve her sister's death in a beautifully illustrated world set in the roaring 20s. With new chapters added every week, the excitement never ends. Download June's Journey now on your Android or iOS device or play on PC through Facebook Games.
It's here! The stock up in Save Sale is on this week at Lens, till you're pantry with deals by the dozen, including savings on your favorite food club items and more. Shop our weekly ad online at lensgrocery.com to see all the incredibly low prices. Lens where delicious begins. This trial may see hundreds of witnesses and last three months or more. But defense attorney Kathy Fleming thinks it's likely many of the jurors have already made up their mind if the stats play out.
The research is pretty good on this. It says about two thirds of the jurors have their minds made up after the opening statements. So they're important parts of the case and you really want to try to get the jury to understand it right away. So who's been more convincing? I thought the government's opening statement was far more detailed in terms of what precisely they were going to show and in some instances who was going to provide that evidence.
The government knows exactly what its witnesses are going to say. They've been preparing, they've been meeting with them and they know basically how the testimony is going to come out. She says the defense wisely took this into account in their opener. I noticed they were very careful. There have been defenses put forward about perhaps claiming abuse with her former boyfriend, former co-dependent who's going to be going to trial next.
But instead of detailing that at all in the opening statements, all the defense said about it is basically watch and listen and you'll see what the relationship was and what kind of influence he had over her. And I don't blame them for doing that until they hear all the evidence and see how it comes out. You don't want to be in a position where you're saying something that's proven untrue right away. The defense has to play some zone to zone defense here and see what happens when it comes out.
Attorney Jay Adelson still believes the government has the upper hand. I think the prosecutors had the better day when it came to opening our arguments. What their opening statement did was it gave a lot of very concrete examples of fraud which they can deliver on and I think they're going to deliver over and over and over and over again. They are going to bury homes with her own words and evidence over evidence.
He believes one of the defense's biggest themes framing Elizabeth as someone who was just in over her head is going to be a hard sell with jurors. Especially given all her public appearances on stages before audiences of thousands. It's such a special thing for me to be here especially with this group of people and plus high profile news features like this one from CBS this morning.
Let me ask a little bit about you. Do you own a TV? No. Why not? I work all the time and I'm basically in the office from the time I wake up and then working until I go to sleep every day. And convincing some of the wealthiest and most powerful people in the world to put their money in faith with her like legendary investor Don Lucas. This young lady comes in and it left stand for didn't graduate. She had a company called Thernos so she came by both of these.
The two things that are necessary here. One medicine and the other entrepreneur quite natural. The defense there in a very tough position. I'm not criticizing the lawyers at all but they have a number of arguments that they're starting to develop which I think are fairly inconsistent. This idea that Elizabeth Holmes who's probably one of the most self possessed 19 year olds at the time that I've ever seen.
I have a 19 year old daughter and she's terrific but you look at what Elizabeth Holmes was doing and she was selling this enormous vision. Getting former secretary of state and tens of industry is a crazy thing for a 19 year old to do. And now one of the main arguments that the defense is making is, oh she was just a kid that's not going to end up being supported by the evidence. One thing that could work in the defense's favor is time according to Kathy Fleming.
Longer a trial goes the more it benefits the defense. If you look at some of the famous acquittals that have happened in this country such as the OJ Simpson case or you look at there's a case called a cituoro that went on for two years and it was all acquittals and an organized crime case. I think the longer it goes the harder it is for the government to win their case.
It's just natural. I think to the extent that the jury gets to know her and gets to know the lawyers and like them it gets a lot harder to convict somebody. The outcome of all this. The statistics are so skewed in favor of the government when you're trying a case on the defense side you're you're swimming upstream. And on top of that she thinks the prosecution was also stronger in openings. I don't want to take a crystal ball out and predict I think that if you did it based just on the openings.
I think the government had the edge because they were more detailed. Jay Edelsen agrees the odds are in the prosecution's favor. So if this were not a celebrity trial I would say this is a slam dunk case. The celebrity aspect of it puts 15% in doubt because anything can happen. And then frankly the fact that COVID is happening I think you got to add another 10% that there'll be something weird happening like a mistrial.
But in terms of on the evidence itself I think that Elizabeth Holmes is in an incredible amount of trouble. And Sunny when it's his term to be tried is going to be in a lot of trouble as well. COVID delays potential mistrials back to the old adage we opened with. Justice delayed is justice denied. It'll only be a matter of time before you can decide how true that really is. Next week we'll hear from one of the so-called Thera Bros an old friend of Elizabeth's brother Dan Edlin.
Recall Dan was Theranos' senior project manager and one of many people recruited to the company by Christian Holmes. Now you came to the company because you knew Christian Holmes who was your fraternity brother at Duke. Correct. Correct. You were involved in proposals for the Department of Defense. Correct. What happened with the relationships with the DOD did they ever go forward? They stopped at some point because there was no realistic path forward. Tune in next Tuesday for that.
Elizabeth Holmes, Bill Evans, aka Hanson, Sunny Bellwani and David Boyz did not respond or decline to comment for this podcast. The dropout Elizabeth Holmes on trial is written and reported by Victoria Thompson, Taylor Dunn, and me. Victoria is the executive producer, Taylor and I are the producers. For ABC Audio, Susie Lewis producer, and Madeline Wood, and Marlowe Milwaukee are associate producers.
Our field producer is Dia Athan. For ABC's business unit, our associate producer is Victor Ardonia's and our production assistant is Lane Wynn. Mixing and scoring is by Susie Liu and Evan Viola. Evan also composed the music for the dropout. Our artwork is by Teddy Blanks at Chipson Y and Sedrik Hanstad. For ABC Audio, Liz Alessie is executive producer. Special thanks to Josh Kohan, Elizabeth Russo, Ian Rosenberg, Eric Avram, and Station to Shishko.