Hey, I'm Osman Farooqi and this is the drop a culture show from the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age, where we dive into the latest in the world of pop culture and entertainment. I'm here with Thomas Mitchell, Ed Mubarak, bro. It's the end of Ramadan. We're eating you. We are. I mean, I didn't fast, so I was eating anyway. But, uh, my Muslim brothers and sisters are now eating. We're eating culturally, too. I've always wanted to say that basically. Yeah. Right. Yeah.
Do you think you'll ever will? Fast.
Not again. I fasted a bit when I was younger and like, you know, was parents have a little bit more control of what you do when it comes to religious observance. Uh, but I don't think that's in my future unless it's like a shred for some sort of like event that I want to look particularly good at.
I was going to say I obviously do like five two. Obviously I do five two, but it's not religious, although it is a religion to some.
We just watched both of us together before we came in to record this. The brand new trailer for Joker to fully adore.
Let's go boys! Thank you, baby. Ah!
Hey, Flack, you got a joke for us today.
We use music to make us whole. To balance the fractures within our cells.
I'm nobody. I haven't done anything with my life like you have.
And man, I've not seen someone's face light up like that in real life. In a long time. You were you were taken aback. That was a religious, if I can say, experience.
It felt like I think it looks really good. I loved the first one. And I mean, this is the problem with, you know, this is the problem with people who like it looks so good. And yeah, it's like a bit of a wank and stuff, but I feel like I appreciate those things. And I'm like, okay, I know what you're trying to do, but I still looks really good. Got me hyped. Lady Gaga's in it. Yeah. The soundtrack. It was like, you know, really slow rendition of like, why Do Birds?
Are you aware of the fact that the movie is a musical? Yes. I wish you could see Thomas's face. It's a musical. You're musical. There's like, 26 tracks in it. Yeah. What Queen, Phoenix and Lady Gaga are singing in this film? Are you serious? I'm 100% serious, dude.
But I'm everything.
What? So I was intrigued. I did not love the first movie. The reasons we don't have to get into. Now we can talk about it when and if we talk about the second film. But it being a sequel is interesting. Bringing in Lady Gaga is interesting. And then when they announced that it was going to be a musical made me think, okay, they're doing something, I'm interested, I'm going to reserve judgment. The trailer very stylized. I can see why it will bring a lot of people in.
I kind of remain unconvinced about. And this is you're gonna make fun of me for saying this, like the politics of the Joker film and what they're trying to do and say at this current moment. But I like Lady Gaga. And if this is kind of like A Star Is Born meets the Joker, that could be interesting. But I love the fact that you had no idea it was musical.
Did you know that? I didn't know it was. No, I didn't know.
That's why I asked you. But I had a suspicion from from your glee that.
Okay, well, that does change a lot of things. But look, I will join you in reserving judgment because I am a big whacking guy, and I think Lady Gaga has serious chops. Um, so obviously, minus that. What was that bad Italian film she did? Uh, how's it Gucci?
Yeah.
Yeah. No, that's bad for everybody.
It's bad for everyone involved. Yeah. Um, yeah. Michael Mann, who saw, uh, Adam Driver do a terrible Italian accent and said, why don't you do that again in my movie Ferrari? Uh, but, Thomas, the other thing I wanted to mention before we get into today's episode is people wanted me to check in on you. We spent last week talking about a couple of great pieces of art Beyoncé's new album, Cowboy Carter, and the new Ripley adaptation on Netflix. And you're a bit, a little bit down
on both of them. A couple of people got in touch and said, is he okay? Is everything going all right with that guy Thomas? He was a little bit flat on these two. Big, interesting, you know, big swings at culture happening. So he's like.
An on air welfare.
Check. Yeah. Basically. Yeah.
Yeah. Look I actually had a few people getting in touch with me and saying like, thanks for standing up, bro. Thanks for saying what others wouldn't. Uh, no. Look, I feel good. I actually listen back to the podcast and I stand by you, even, in fact, sent me the New York Times podcast, who had a similar discourse driven discussion to us. Uh, so, I mean, aside from the fact that, once again, the drop has its collective finger on the pulse. Yeah.
Well, days before the New York Times podcast on this one. Yeah.
So, yeah. Look, I am good. I stand by everything I said, obviously, uh, unless anything I said proves wrong, in which case it was a mistake. But yes, I'm excited to get into things this week.
Uh, and we actually will revisit Ripley because I've now seen the entire show, and I think there's a bit more to discuss there. But this week, in terms of the world of television, one of the greatest shows ever put to air wrapped up talking about Curb Your Enthusiasm. The HBO series written by Larry David. It's basically a fictionalized version of his actual life. This show has been on the air for 12 seasons, spread out over 25 years.
Thomas Juneau, who was the president of the United States when Curb Your Enthusiasm first went to air.
I don't know if you've heard of a little thing called Reaganomics. Hahahahahahaha. Uh, no, it was Bill Clinton. That's crazy.
Isn't that insane?
It is crazy, given how much like the world has changed. And you know, it's funny to put it in those terms, like how many different cycles we've been through now.
So we had Bill Clinton, George Bush, Barack Obama, Donald Trump, Joe Biden, potentially Donald Trump again, all of that has happened while Larry David has just been getting up to ridiculous adventures in LA.
And it's I think it is crazy when you think about like, curb finishing now and the fact that Seinfeld, the finale, which we also talk about, finished in 1998. So this guy has been making he's gone back to back with two of the greatest like 30 years.
Yeah.
Like it's it's an insane feat. And I think, you know, obviously there's been lots of, uh, breaks in the curb kind of run, but still, it's an incredible, uh, achievement that it won't probably be matched. I'm very, very sad that Larry David has called time officially. I reckon this.
Time. Yeah. Okay, interesting. Let's get to that, too. I mean, this this is a really fun finale to get into just on its own terms. But we also thought it was a good opportunity to discuss, I guess, the idea of TV finales more generally when they have worked, when they haven't, what kind of legacy they leave for a show as well. And there's a lot of great iconic, good, bad and kind of divisive finales to talk about. But first,
let's chat about curb. There was there was some talk this season that Larry was going to explicitly reference the infamous and very divisive Seinfeld finale, which he actually wrote as well. There are a couple of conversations Larry was having throughout this season of curb, where people brought up. Oh, yeah, you worked on Sanford, right? You might have known that person. And Larry was like, no, no, no, I actually stopped
after like season seven or whatever. And they're like, oh, but you came back for the finale, and Larry's like, yeah, I did. Why are you bringing that up? And in fact, in this final episode, Leon starts watching Seinfeld for the first time, which is so good. And there was some interview where I think Jeff Schaffer, um, one of the executive producers and writers, was like, yeah, just kind of occurred to us that probably Leon has never watched Seinfeld,
so let's get him to watch it. He's binging it, he's getting closer to the end. And he was like, I love the show, Larry. But like, I'm getting close to the finale. Everyone tells me you fucked it up, so I can't wait to say it before we get to the actual, like, conversation around the curb finale, which is riffing off and paying homage to and then twisting the Seinfeld finale, can you remind us of that and why it was so controversial?
Yeah, well, so the Seinfeld finale aired in May 1998. Uh, at the time, Stanford was already kind of considered in the pantheon of great TV shows. And as you said, Larry David had left, I think, after season six, um, for a couple of seasons. And he came back to write the finale. And, I mean, look, it was always, I think, behind the eight ball from the get go, given the show was about nothing. And so to wrap up a show like that is a tricky thing to do.
And obviously, as it turned out, perhaps he fumbled it a little bit. Essentially what it did was we found the four main actors Jerry, George, Elaine and Kramer, who were on trial for violating a Good Samaritan law because they'd failed to help a person in need, which is a very like Seinfeld type setup in the finale. Basically, they're all on trial, um, being represented by Johnnie Cochran.
And we basically see this, like, revolving door of cameos from people who the four characters have, like, wronged in the past. You get the soup Nazi Babu, uh, Mabel with the marble rye. And so all of these people come back and they, you know, it's like a character assassination on these guys essentially ends with them being convicted
by Judge Van Delay. And, um, while they're kind of sitting in there, you know, waiting to be sentenced, they start having a conversation about, you know, the placement of George's buttons, which is from the very first episode of Seinfeld.
The second button is the key button. It literally makes or breaks the shirt. Look at it. It's too high. It's a no man's land.
How about we had this conversation before.
You think.
And that's basically where the show ends. Um, and so yeah, that was this kind of like really divisive finale. People thought they shouldn't have bothered moralizing these characters who, you know, famously don't care about anything. Yeah. And yeah, it's kind of been that watercooler conversation forever. Like, did the Seinfeld finale live up to the show's hype or is it, you know, perhaps the biggest flop?
And I think a lot of people were upset at the time because they'd been building this finale up in their heads, and a lot of it was like a clip show, like highlights from the last few, which I guess probably was more important back then because that was an era before, like the ubiquity of the internet and YouTube. You couldn't just watch your favorite clips from Seinfeld. I
don't know why all the people got so mad about that. Like, that's great, let's get the Babu getting deported, you know, sequence happening again.
You had my visa application.
Well, not technically, I see you. Well, what about.
Can. Both of you. No, Babu. No Babu. You bad man. You very bad man. You very bad.
Man. I'm going to fix everything. Basically with curb, we kind of got something very similar with a few tweaks like the arc of this season. Was Larry facing jail time because he this time was a good Samaritan. He gave some water to anti-Black, who she was in a line trying to vote in a Georgia election. And there is laws in Georgia that say that you can't do that. The voter suppression laws, uh, Larry broke that accidentally and
became this kind of cool celeb. The, uh, the finale sees Larry and his friends head back to Atlanta for the trial. Uh, and it's a roll call, basically, of all of Larry's rivals throughout the years. Mocha Joe pops up. Oh my God.
It's not Joe Bella, that's Mocha Joe.
Mr. Boca Belle I understand at one point you were in the coffee business. Yes, I was, it was called Mocha Joe's. Maybe you heard of it. Never have a problem with anybody. Not really. Normal. Stop. Until one day Larry David came in. Could you tell us?
You get this sense that Larry is actually a terrible person who does terrible things? Very reminiscent of the Seinfeld finale. Uh, and I guess spoilers if you have not seen the code finale yet. This time again, Larry gets convicted. But while he's in prison, just awaiting, I guess, getting sent to the the facility where he'll spend a year in prison. Jerry Seinfeld rocks up and says, actually, it turns out you're out because one of the jurors who was supposed
to be sequestered. I ran into him in, like, a restaurant, Mexican restaurant, that sequester, sequester. And then they walk out of prison. And I think Larry turns to Jerry and says, you know what? This is how we should have done the the Sanford finale. And the way that the Cove finale really ends is with Larry on a plane with Jeff and Susie and Leon and Richard and Cheryl, his
ex-wife and Ted, and they're just bickering. And I think curb is actually, uh, one of the interviews I read is that actually filmed that sort of scene to end a couple of seasons in the past, but there was just too many things going on, so they cut it out. So the ending feels way more true to the show than a sort of statement on what's happening with Larry. How did you feel about this final episode, maybe the final season of curb?
Yeah, I think he really like Nailed It. And it's funny because. There's lots of like, discussion now about whether or not was he really trying to directly address people's issue with the Seinfeld finale. And I just feel like, you know, that's putting too much like consideration, I think, on Larry David, I don't think he even cares. If you liked the Seinfeld finale, I think he was just like,
this is a really funny troll. Almost. Yeah. So just redo Seinfeld, tweak it slightly, and and like, that's it. My the two two of the biggest TV finales of all time. I wrote them both and they're both exactly the same thing.
Yeah, it's kind of like such a great Larry David. Like I'm pretty. I don't know how to end this. I'll just do what I did last time. I don't give a fuck if you like, I don't know.
Yeah. And they're like, yeah, there's a small tweak with Jerry, but even bringing Jerry back, it was just. Yeah. And I think, look, I would say the Venn diagram crossover of people who love Seinfeld and people who love curb is like the 98th percentile. And so there were just so many Seinfeld hat tips in this episode that, you know, the airplane scene, Jerry coming back, even the conversation between hey and Jerry about the bearded.
Lady get together. You go to.
The bearded lady's apartment. It's a normal apartment.
Nothing freakish.
No, nothing freakish at all. You wouldn't know you were in a freak's apartment. No. Okay, now you see this picture? This gorgeous woman? Yeah. And your friend says to you, that's the bearded lady. She has no beard.
Clean shaven, bearded lady.
She's quitting the circus. She's got a big crush on you. Really? She'd love. Yeah.
It was so, like, just like, straight from Seinfeld.
And I think there's also a callback to the pilot where Larry's got his corduroy pants on. Yeah, and he's got the pants tent, and that's like George with the buttons. Yeah, yeah.
So it just felt like it was tailor made for people. And. Yeah, I thought they did a really good job. And it really is a hard thing to do. And I think probably we don't realize yet, but there will be a big curb shaped hole in all of our lives. Yeah, I.
Enjoyed the season a lot. I think the show is not quite what it used to be. I think it used to be so much more layered and complex, like you'd have these multiple plots that would all come together, and it's really sharp way. I feel like the last couple of seasons, it's been a bit more hit and miss, like there's been a little bit of that, but there's also just been a real joy in Larry, like just
kicking around the house with Leon, like talking absolute shit. Like, I think it was either this season of the last season where there was this like two episode ongoing bit about Larry's distaste for Little Women, and I'm not going to say it out loud, but what Leon thinks he's talking about when he's talking about the Book of Little Women is just extraordinary, has a little bit more of the kind of non-sequiturs, I think, than than they used to be. And then sort of the, the layered, complicated
plots of sort of disappeared. But I'm starting to realize that, like, not that I watched this show from the age of nine, like when I first came out, but for a long, you know, like the last ten years of my life at least, this has just been a thing. This has just been like, this is culture. Like every year or every couple of years, there'll be a new curb season.
You watch it, you talk about it. And I'm getting pretty sad realizing that that kind of cast of characters, that world is not going to be part of my life anymore.
Yeah, I do, I would say at least it's a very good like revisit show. You can easily start at the start after just finishing it and like it just washes over you. But yeah, I think it is sad. It's funny. Like we I think in the last few years especially, we're kind of getting more and more into like high concept TV and you know, like succession mania and all of that stuff. And that's really like what galvanizes people and gets people going and, and drives like
these big conversations that we have. And so perhaps it's harder now for shows like curb to exist and really thrive because it doesn't feel like enough. But they do have such a special place. And this is the same thing with Seinfeld, especially when you talk to young people about Seinfeld. They don't seem like I say young people, but like if you're, you know, in your 20s now, like in your early 20s and you go and watch Seinfeld, it doesn't seem to like land in the same way.
And I just think that culture around these shows that don't really have anything that big to say has changed so much, because we do feel that we need to be talking about these big, important, high concept shows. And and yeah, I think the beauty of curb as well has always been it's like, you know, Larry is this kind of audience surrogate who is constantly, like running afoul of, like,
you know, accepted etiquette and stuff. And it's very funny to watch him, like fumbling his way through life and maybe, like increasingly did get a bit looser and a bit more ridiculous. And and maybe it didn't land as much in the later seasons, but I. Yeah, I'm gonna miss it.
Me too. And I think, like, just hearing you talk about it as well, thinking about like, what are the bits of curb that made it so different? I think one, you and I talked about this a lot on the show before. How many shows are there that have been around for that long, that have had such a big cast that we've fallen in love with and appreciated, like that era of long running sitcoms like this doesn't exist.
I know that like Grey's Anatomy is entering its 75th season or whatever, and I know that there are Grey's heads and like the law and order heads who love that. But in like sitcom land for something that is this funny, in this shop, you just don't have stuff like that anymore. You kind of fall in love with it, and there's a couple of shows that do it, but then they wrap up after 2 or 3 seasons. So this is very unique in that it has been with us for
so long. And then the observational humor and Larry taking things to the extreme and poking fun of himself, poking fun of. Woke culture from both perspectives. But I always got this sense that Larry was on the right side, which is a really fine line to walk like. You see these older comedians who are decrying the state of the world and they're like, you can't say anything anymore.
And Larry does that a little bit, but you know, from genuinely who the targets are and what he says outside of the show, he's not like some curmudgeonly old conservative who doesn't like the way the world's going.
No, he's not like a Ricky Gervais.
Yeah, exactly.
John Cleese or anything like that. I think he's almost like needling those guys a little bit. And that's the thing. Like, he does just have such a talent for being able to force the audience to really, like, put themselves in his position and be like, if I was, you know, like a Jewish guy who wanted to eat this delicious Palestinian chicken, like, what would I do? And I just think, you know, we don't get that much TV that makes us really think like that anymore.
Yeah. One of the ongoing topics since 2017, I guess, was Larry engaging with me too. I did you.
Pig.
Oh, no, Nancy, that is not Harvey Weinstein. I'm so sorry, Jeff.
Which is so dicey. Right? Like, this is an old white guy who's been in media and television for a long time, who's been associated with Jerry Seinfeld for a long time. And, I mean, they made a couple of jokes about in the finale, but some of the stuff with Jerry and his, like, younger years with like, certain
girlfriends is not great. And Larry manages to both, I guess, find the comedy in some of the more extreme ways that, like me too, is manifested, particularly in Hollywood, but always make you feel like it's not like he's saying, this is bad. It's not like he's saying that like women shouldn't be speaking up. That is such a smart and sophisticated and fine line to draw. I don't know, maybe, maybe if Mel was here, she'd say, you guys suck. That's like the word no, I'm not trying to pigeonhole
Mel as, like, being, like, the boring one or whatever, but, um. Yeah, I just think it's so hard and it's so rare. And maybe a lot of younger generation of comedians, they don't want to tackle that. Right? Like it's risky. It genuinely it's like really risky to try to take aim at these kinds of moments, these movements, and be able to pull it off. And even if you do, you aren't necessarily rewarded for it. And and there are more risks than there are benefits. So you kind of need
someone like Larry who's like, I've made my stack. I'm fine. You can't do anything to me. I'm 76 years old to be able to take that kind of a risk. And yeah, I'm not sure who the next one of him is.
Yeah, I know, and I don't know if there will be another. You know, as we said, he's been doing this since, you know, the early 90s with Seinfeld. And so the fact that that is over now is so strange. And, yeah, I really think the finale and this is another thing I think is interesting. You know, we spoke about Beyonce last week. Everyone's quite divided, but most people like it. But you know, this has no.
Matter critics scores like 95 I think I think a lot of people like it. There's an important 5% there.
But this has been a pretty well received finale, which is like incredibly rare, I would say. I mean, succession people loved as well universally. But yeah, I haven't read a bad thing about the finale. So yeah.
Let's let's talk about finales generally because I think, I think this one, and it's why I also like the Seinfeld finale. Both of them did a thing that is pretty rare again, for comedies, where they kept the tone
of the show. You say this with shows like Friends and The Office, where they're funny shows, the situation comedies, but they get a bit maudlin, a little bit somber, everyone's crying and that like, people like that, you're saying farewell to characters you've watched for ten years or whatever, but it's really hot. Like, I don't think a Seinfeld finale would have felt good if it was like Elaine crying about the fact that she's not going to hang
out with Jerry again. Well, I can imagine, like in one of the most curb things ever, they released this behind the scenes clip of when they wrapped the final scene on the plane on curb. Jeff Schaffer, who's the EP, says, you have to wrap on the funny show of all time. All right.
That's a wrap on the funniest show ever.
Larry David treated me like like a god. And all of you had. And this is the greatest experience of my career, and I love each and every one of you. I'm honored.
And Richard Lewis, like, gives a speech. And it's obviously very sad because he's passed away now and he's just thanking Larry for treating him like a god. Cheryl. Larry's wife, she's crying as as they've cut and the cameras turned to Larry and everyone's expecting him to give a speech, and he just kind of shrugs in, wanders off, and I'm like, that's the tone of Larry. That's the tone of the show. It wouldn't have been right if they
actually showed everyone crying on the plane. But I mean, that brings up this question of like, how do you land a finale and how do you perhaps go wrong with it? And sometimes, man, these things break people's brains. Finales are a really, really interesting topic because some people think that a great finale means that the show is good. Some people think that a bad finale has destroyed the entire legacy of the show. And there are some finales.
I think the The Sopranos one is a great example where there's like a split down the middle of whether people think it's good or bad. And, and I guess I find the finale when it comes to television conversation a bit funny, because I've got my own thoughts about what makes a good and bad finale, but I don't generally see it as being that linked to the quality
of the overall show. But when you think about the medium of TV generally like Multi-season years long television stuff supposed to like a linear series, the whole point of these shows is that there's not a narrative. It's not like there's a start point and an end point. The point is you create a vibe, you create an environment, you create a cast of characters. You all hang out together.
There isn't, by definition, like a definitive end. So whether it ends well or bad is kind of irrelevant to me in a lot of ways, because that's not what the show's been trying to do. And if I do show rewatches, I often won't make it all the way to the end because you can see them starting to wrap things up. And that's not what I'm watching the show for. But I mean, how do you feel about, like, do you put a lot of weight in stock, and do you think finales can make or break a show?
I think they I mean, I think it's been showing that they can kind of make or break. Yeah, I do put a lot of stock in it because I think it's just really hard. It's human nature. You're watching a story. A story has a beginning, middle and an end. And so especially, you know, we get so much hype now around like even with curb, it was like it's the last season. So from the minute you start episode one you're like watching within the prism of like, how
will this show end? Yeah, it was actually kind of interesting with curb because like Larry does so often be like, this is the final season. Oh, actually it's not. So you didn't really know. But yeah, I mean, I do think a good finale can change, you know, the way I feel about a show. I was incredibly nervous, as you remember about the succession finale. Yeah. Uh, and that was a show I thought, look, probably in retrospect, it wasn't going to change its legacy had the finale not been, like,
so great, but it was so like, note perfect. I think that succession, which was already on this incredible path, everyone was so hyped about it, everyone was loving it. And then the finale just sat so perfectly atop that entire mountain that it just solidified it as one of
the great TV shows. And I know that, you know, I don't watch this show and don't care for it, but from what I've learned in my research, which I do a lot of, is that the, for instance, Game of Thrones, which was universally considered one of the greatest shows of our time. Yeah, I really felt like whatever they did in that finale, fuck knows. I tried to understand on the internet, like whatever happened in that finale genuinely seems to have tarnished what people think of the show.
Yeah, those are both really great examples, I guess kind of counterpoints to what I was saying. Like, I think succession is in its own fascinating little category, where it was like a show, like it was committed at these moments, and there was a big cast and you could have we said this at the time, you could have just hung out with these guys for another five seasons. But it was also trying to tell a discreet story about this family, this company, this point in America. What happens
when the patriarch. So it found a way to unite those two things that I think so few TV shows managed to do. Game of Thrones is, I think, one of the most clearest recent examples of a show that just destroyed its entire cultural legacy by a bad finale. That show I know that you didn't watch, but it had this grip on the culture, right? It was the
most pirated show when it first came out. It was the most watched show when it became easy to stream, people had watch parties like, I went to people's House, you know, every time, once a week to to watch Game of Thrones. You read recaps, you listen to podcasts, you debate. This was freaking everywhere. Then the last season comes along.
So was because from what I can gather, the last season itself was a bit of a cluster.
Fuck yeah. I think looking back, I think what generally people accept is Benioff and Weiss, the showrunners, really, really good at adapting George R.R. Martin's material, did a great job with a very complicated and dense story when George hadn't finished writing The End, and I guess it kind of sketched out the plan and those guys had to just do it. They fumbled it a little bit. I also think there's a sense that they've been working on
that show for a very long time. They had other projects lined up and they're just like, let's get out of here. So things that normally would have taken 2 to 3 seasons to happen in the earlier part of Game of Thrones happened in like half an episode. It's plots just like resolve very quickly. Character development happens. It's so fast, without any acknowledgement. Characters that we were rooting
for had fascistic twists that made no sense. And then ultimately, the guy who ends up on the Iron Throne is someone. People are just like, what the hell's happened to you? And I think maybe it's because that show was so good and people were so invested, it felt like a betrayal. You've kept me on tenterhooks for 7 or 8 years to find out what's going on. And then you, the creators, have treated me with disrespect. So I no longer want
to talk about this show at all anymore. It's kind of like the JK Rowling Harry Potter thing for a lot of fans. Like, I love this stuff. I don't really, you know, fuck with J.K. Rowling anymore. So I never want to talk about Harry Potter, but it's actually a really good example of how badly telling your ending can ameliorate everything that came before.
Yeah. It's interesting. Like, it definitely seems to have ruined that show for lots of people. I do feel like again, this is probably recency bias, but I do feel like the conversation around finales really did begin because you kind of said it before. It's very different when it's like a show, like a Seinfeld, even if you're disappointed a bit like I feel like the conversation around finales did begin with The Sopranos because it was, you know, talk
about having a grip on the culture. Like, this is obviously before the age of streaming and the internet had, like completely ruined us all. But, you know, it was this, like huge HBO drama. It was the start of prestige TV for a lot of people. And, you know, this was appointment viewing in its first instance. And then obviously it remains, I think, probably the most. Even if you haven't watched The Sopranos, I guarantee you you can tell me what happens in the final scene. Yeah. Spoiler alert
if you haven't, you're about 25 years too late. But obviously, you know, all we see is meadow trying to park a car three times. She walks into a diner, Tony looks up and the show cuts to black and I, you know, have had this debate so many times. I've spoken to Michael Imperioli, who obviously plays Christopher, about his thoughts on the finale, and even he admitted that I think he thought his cable was broken at the time. You know, this is which is, of course, such a
90s thing to say. But, you know, this is like that, I guess, redefined how, you know, David Chase is a genius, but redefined how a TV show should be ending. I personally think it's a great ending.
I think so too. I think the fact that it's ambiguous is so smart, and you could either read it as like, well, this was us spending six years in the life of Tony Soprano, and we've just cut away from it. That's it. What happens next, happens next. Or which I think, you know, there's a credible theory and it's probably the one that I subscribe to that there
was a hitman coming in the jacket. Yeah, exactly. And and I think there's a reference earlier in that season, one of the characters is talking to Tony about, you know, one I think like when it happens, you don't hear it, you don't feel it just happens like that's death. And for a show that was about death from the very, very start. And Tony's fear of losing control and death has haunted him and he's been responsible for it. It makes sense to me that his character just dies. You
know that there's nothing left for him. That makes more sense to me in terms of what the show is trying to say than him sort of living this happy family life. But either way, none of that changes whether the rest of the show was great or bad. And either option sets up a world in the future of the Sopranos universe that is still very interesting and true to it. So it's really interesting. It's ambiguous, but either option is fine, and I think one makes more sense.
But I also concede the merits for the other one. I love the idea of ending to show that I know some people think it's a cop out, but I mean, like, what's the counterfactual there that you see Tony bleeding or you just see Tony have a nice dinner and they fade to black. Like, that's not compelling.
But that's what I always wonder about people who get so obsessed with this. Like what? But what happened? Like, you know, I'm sure David Chase has spent the rest of his years asking being asked, Is Tony alive? But like the people who really want those endings, like had had the guy in the members only jacket walked in and shot Tony in the head, like, would that have
satisfied them? Like, I just, I still don't really understand. Like, you know, you look at all these kind of especially these like prestige TV shows and try and figure out like maybe what they've got in common. And you kind of touched on it before, I think it's really about staying true to like the soul of the show, even if it's so tempting when you are, you know, like wrapping up something or bringing any project to an end, you know, you naturally feel like you need to tick
off certain things. But another one I think is great is the Mad Men finale.
Yeah, yeah. Talk to me about that.
That I feel like was another show where people were very invested in, like it had built this entire world with all these characters that you really cared about. And it was like, how is this going to end? And again, spoiler alert for those who haven't seen it, but we had, you know, Don Draper, played by Jon Hamm, who had kind of gone on this like mythical, you know, like eat, pray, love journey.
Totally like meditating at the end.
Yeah. Like he's not the ad man he once was. And then like, it ends with his, like, basically idea for a new Coca Cola ad like that really famous, you know, ad from the 70s.
They're all singing in a hill somewhere.
Yeah. And it's like, you know, that is Don Draper. He's a fucking ad man. Like, I can't help it.
Like he's found a way to use the hippy dippy, meditative idea of bringing the world together to sell Coca Cola. Exactly.
Which is. But it's, like, perfect for, you know, the world that he exists in. And I think, you know, but one of my favorite ones, I would say of all time is Breaking Bad, and that I remember having like a Breaking Bad finale party and again, like, you had built this world where it. You know, everything hinge on what was going to happen in the finale, and they did it perfectly. Everything that happened with Walter White
and Jesse was really true to the characters. So I think, you know, the temptation to offer closure or anything that's it's always there. But really, if you just stay true to the world you've built.
There's a couple of other good and bad ones I want to talk to you about, but I just when you mentioned Breaking Bad, it made me think like, what's interesting about Breaking Bad, The Sopranos as well as Game of Thrones. And like, I guess there's this question about whether curb is actually done or not. It's finales don't necessarily mean the end anymore. Like Breaking Bad and The Sopranos have had prequel series. We've had the Game of Thrones prequel series, House of the Dragon. I think there's
more in development. It's interesting to me whether you think the white of the finale, like maybe part of the reason why The Sopranos finale also felt so emotionally resonant was because this is before the era of turning everything into IP. And so it was like, well, this is the end. This is the end of the Sopranos universe. And then 15 years later, it's like, guess what? I'm showing you what it was like in the 70s. And now when a show ends, the immediate question is, well,
what's the spinoff going to be? So a finale wraps up a bit of the story, but not the whole thing. Do you think that's shifted the way we think about the definitive end of shows? Yeah, I think so.
Because there is this kind of safety net like even with succession, you know, which I know we always go back to. But like there was so much chat about like, oh, well, Jesse Armstrong, do something else. Will there be like a Greg and Tom spinoff? Which is so crazy to think we were.
We were high on some bullshit back then. We will.
We have been conditioned now to be like, oh well, we love this show. And you know, especially, you know, the studios and stuff. Love this IP. And you know, they've got onto a winner here. So surely they were. And if they could.
Have convinced Jesse I'm trying to do it, they would have 100%.
Like or if he if he had come back and done like a you know, fast forward five years, a one off succession film. I mean, it may still happen. I would be shocked. But yeah, I definitely think that has changed because we do have this safety net now where it's like, oh, well, it's really sad to say goodbye, but you know, we know that there could be something coming. Whereas for instance, you know, not a great finale, but friends. Yeah. Very sad. That was just like completely, you know, they
leant so hard into the sincerity. Everyone ended up sobbing. Everyone, every.
Shot look like them just crying nonstop. Yeah.
Like they all like put the keys on the end. Like it was all very sad. But I think people really knew that was the end. You know, it was a huge show that had turned these six kind of unknowns. Yeah.
But then they made Joey.
They did make Joey.
Everyone forgets about Joey with Memory Hole.
Joey I mean, that's why for the best.
Yeah, definitely. Uh, one I guess that's sort of in the same vein as friends, but I think did that better. Is The Office. I think the office finale, like The Office, was always pretty funny, but had this heart to it. Which office are we talking? I'm talking about the American office. Okay. Um, and then, you know, they brought back Steve Carell, and that was like some teary moments, but it was also
just a genuinely very funny episode. And I think that is another good example of it staying true to the show that it had always been, because as a version of that show where it's just 75 minutes of everyone crying, I'm glad that I didn't do that. I never finished. I mean, I actually never have seen the British office.
Oh my God, yeah, okay. You yelled at me for not having seen fucking It's a Wonderful Life, whatever it's called.
Yeah, I know that Ricky Gervais wasn't as weird then as he is now, but I just, like, Guy annoys me so much.
The show is very funny. You know the one? Probably one of the weirdest finales he's had in recent times. Neighbours. How angry is Kylie Minogue about coming back for that finale? Only for then Freeview and Amazon to step in and be like, we were just joking. Six months later, did.
You see this story from this week that, like, Harold is coming back to neighbours? Yeah.
Isn't he dead?
I'm not clear. Like, it's so funny that ten years ago that would have been like, stop the presses. Like Harold Bishop is coming back to neighbours. But just that show. Just let it let it die.
And this, I think, is also like a part of
a wider, you know, external from neighbours problem. People do feel a little bit cheated now because we do still get emotionally invested in these finales and we, you know, the way they market them and everything, you know, it becomes such a big thing I can say in six months if we do like get a surprise curb, even though I feel like I would be excited, I think I'd be a bit like, okay, I feel cheated now, like you, you actively got me invested in saying goodbye
to these characters. I enjoyed the finale. I wrote and thought and talked about it, and now, like we're just doing it all over again. So I think it's a tricky thing, you know, like buying into this, extending the show all the time and keeping the world going.
Yeah, there's something to be said about the like, real clear. And like, there's a couple I wanted to mention more recently that I think have done that really well. One is Derry Girls, the Netflix show. Um, I loved how that ended. I think, again, it was like a nice ending in terms of where each of the characters was at sort of emotionally and where they're at in their lives. But, you know, the ongoing theme of that show was the Troubles in Northern Ireland and the violence that was afflicting
all of these people as they grow up. And so showing them, like vote on on the Good Friday Agreement was, was really powerful, really interesting. You kind of got the ending of like the politics as well as where the characters were at and you're like, okay, that's it, that show's done. I don't need to like, you know, find out what happened to them in the future. And the other one is Fleabag. Like, I thought that had a nice ending, like had an ending that was really true
to what that idea of. It'll pass from Andrew Scott, hot priest. Like, just go. Beautiful.
Is it the end at the bus stop? And she's like, I love you. And he's like, it'll pass. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's.
One of the best, like romantic, but in a brutally honest way that I can remember in a TV.
Show in a while. It's like, this is what happens in life. Really? Yeah, exactly. And then on the other end of the scale, and this is what I find so funny because I actually recently rewatched. My wife was watching it and I just walked into the room. But the sex and the city finale and I talk about, I mean, there's a lot of the running theme here with HBO, but talk about a finale. That was another
really big cultural moment. Like people were fucking hyped. And obviously that show has done a lot to kind of tarnish its own legacy in releasing like three pretty bad films. And then obviously having And Just Like That, the new series minus Samantha. But again, sex and the city and I know you have your own thoughts about it, but it was a groundbreaking series in a lot of ways for a lot of people. But the series ended up like basically in like the finale captures how much at
war it was with itself. Like the second last scene is Carrie finally ending up with big and kind of giving her this traditional ending, which didn't really feel true to the character. But then the very last scene is her. Like walking down the road by herself, going to meet the girls, and she talks about like the most important relationship is her friends. And it was like the creators, like Michael Patrick King couldn't. He was like, couldn't bring
himself to choose either party. Like hedged his bets. And everyone, I think, generally felt a bit like, are you like, you kind of dogged us there, like on either camp. Yeah.
And I think that's interesting for a couple of reasons. It's a really good example of how a show can change over time. And so like what the characters would want at that phase in life is different to the idea of this show, starting when they're much younger and carefree, and also how you get shaped by what the audience wants, like fan service. This is this thing that drives shows, like there's ways to end a show that is perhaps more true to your creative vision and true to what
the characters are at. But you're like, are fans that want that? They want to know who she ends up with. So we have to give them some of that as well.
That's what's funny about the fan culture now, especially like I remember reading posts, I know I kept talking about succession, but it was such a recent finale and such a great one post that I think Jesse Armstrong did a big sit down with the Guardian, and he was like, we were sitting in the writers room, and we kind of felt like the what we knew in, like the marketplace of viewers was that people kind of wanted Kendall to maybe win. That was what they felt from the audience.
And so they kind of tried to game it out a lot like to try and see like, oh, what about if we do this? What if we do that? Because they were kind of almost. And then eventually he was like, no, we're trying to right now with an audience in mind like, this is mental. And so they scrapped it because it never, never really worked in a
way that was believable. But yeah, even at those top levels where, you know, you've got these writers rooms who obviously know their show and their characters inside out, it's very hard once a show becomes so popular and so buzzy, not to listen to, like what people are saying, what people are wanting.
Should we talk about a couple of others that have not worked? Like, I think Game of Thrones is probably the clearest example of it being bad and it destroying the show's reputation. But a couple more that like, I don't think they went that far, but just totally fumbled the bag. Were you a lost head?
Well, I didn't really watch lost, but I am aware almost around the dialogue around the finale.
Yeah, I was really in on lost and I was in on it, you know, from the era where, like, you'd watch it on TV, you'd wait week to week to see what happened. You'd have the big six month breaks at the end of the season. And it was like an iconic mystery show. It's like there are all these mysteries, what's going to happen? And everyone had theories and people would debate them and like websites and forums
and whatever. And basically, like every theory the creators would debunk, only to get to the end and be like, no, the thing that we debunked in season one that you all sort of probably thought it was, it was literally just that. And then it left a lot of mysteries unsolved as well. So I think people didn't feel like it gave them the conclusion to this great mystery box series that they were hoping for. The other one that I just want to touch on very briefly, Gossip Girl,
you know that I'm a big Gossip Girl head. Uh, this was hilarious because they revealed who Gossip Girl was, and it was Dan Humphrey, which made no sense because he had been the subject of Gossip Girl. He ends up marrying Serena, who, Gossip Girl like, hounded to a suicide multiple times. Uh, I still think that show is great. I think you can enjoy a terrible finale when the show itself doesn't take itself too seriously. I mean.
I won't hear bad. What about it? Because I may have modeled my personality off Seth for a large portion of my life. Then I soon moved on to Dan Humphreys after that. So Dan Humphreys can do no wrong in my book. And also he's just he's about for his time. He knew that he had to write about himself in order to be believable.
Yeah, yeah. And it kind of checks out that this like, guy who didn't make it as an award winning writer just became a bitchy, anonymous Twitter account, essentially. Um, he's looking at all of you bitchy, anonymous Twitter accounts. A couple of other TV things we wanted to touch on Thomas post the finales discussion. Ripley previewed it last week. At that stage, I'd only say in the first few episodes I have now. It seems like a lot of
people have caught up in it. On the weekend, you were like a little bit, maybe not that into it, it seemed, but you said you wanted to talk to me once I'd seen all of the episodes. So what is your final sort of take on Ripley?
I feel like that's backfired because I know you're hyped on it. Look, I definitely agree that a, I feel like over the weekend everyone started to watch Ripley. But I would say again, I reckon from the people I've spoken to, opinions been really split. Some of my like trusted friends actually had a really big problem with the black and white thing, which is, you know, which take from that what you will. Other friends got really into it. Uh, look, I know you're going to love it because at the
end they go back to 1606 and we see Caravaggio. Uh, I still I still stand by what I said. I really liked it. Um, I find it hard to distance myself from the emotion that I felt for the movie. And, like, that's a treasured film for me. So I think I struggled to to distance myself from that when watching it,
but I still think it was really good. And, I mean, I do have a couple of queries about the finale, but, I mean, I assume you're about to be like, it's the greatest thing that's happened to me since Oppenheimer.
Yeah, basically, this is exquisite, this TV show. It got better and better and better. Uh, to me, I actually went back and rewatched The Talented Mr. Ripley. And look, I think that's a great film. I love that film. These two things are trying to do something quite different. I think the film basks in like the first half of that movie is just how good is the south of Italy? Let's have a great time with these super hot people. And then it's like a little bit of
a thriller cat and mouse sort of a thing. This series is like not trying to do any of that. It's not like obviously like Italy looks. Really interesting on screen, but it's not about the light and the the sun drenched beaches in the outfits or anything like that. As
much as it's. I think we talked about it last week, this examination of wealthy people and their desperate desire to be seen as like, actually very interesting, smart artists and the way that, like, someone like Ripley is motivated by being on the outer, by proving that he can mingle with the best of them and how the minor details with how he gets away with various murders and things. Like in the film, you never really see that you see these inciting incidents, but you don't really get in
detail how Ripley would extricate himself from these situations. What I found so fascinating about this show is the two episodes where there are two murders, and half the episode or more is just this, like, painstaking, like a Ripley attempt to. Cover his tracks, and it's like I had to, like, look away at some points because it was done in
such an interesting way to build up such tension. And I didn't totally understand the Caravaggio references that kept making throughout the show, until you kind of get closer and closer towards the end and you understand that there's a couple of things going on. I think, like Caravaggio, this artist who relied on patronage, who was getting screwed over by the powers that be in Italy, who was accused of homosexuality at a time where, you know, that wasn't allowed.
And certainly contemporary historians think that that was a big part of the subtext of what was going on. That is like an obvious parallel to Ripley and what he's dealing with. And I think the other part of it goes to the black and white of it. All right. And I get it's a little bit pretentious, and I can understand that some people think of it as a
turn off. But when something's in black and white and you just got light and shade and you've got blackness and light of the two contrasts, and the show goes out of its way to make that point about Caravaggio a lot, that his work was pioneering in how it looked at the way that, like light is used to highlight certain things and put other things in the shadow. On one hand, that is just the creators of the
show being like, we know our art history. Yeah. And also, and I think even they took it to the next level when there's this scene where Ripley is trying to disguise who he is and he's not quite sure how to get away with it, and then he has this flashback to Caravaggio. It's all in the light. And he does this thing where he, like, covers the curtain and sets up the light. That's like a nod to Caravaggio.
But I also think this is like some real directors on their own bullshit, where they're like, this is what we do with every scene we construct. You guys just watch the show and you're like, it looks pretty nice. And it's kind of, well, this is how we construct light. And we're showing you that because we want to prove how smart we are. And I can understand that that's pretentious and whatever. But I also think to like do
that little hat tip is pretty cool. And then the other bit of this show that I think just elevates to this, like top tier in terms of its storytelling and how it wraps up all the plot machinations. There was multiple times, particularly as we got closer towards the end. I was like, what about that? There's a plot hole here, but what if he just talks to that guy? Ripley deals with them all one by one, and it makes
you think you thought. Audience member you were smarter than us. No, no no no. We're actually, like, two steps ahead of you the way Ripley was in this entire series. I'm like. What else do I want from television, man, I.
Would say, but then one thing that did annoy me was he has a conversation, I think the finale with one of the Italian policemen, and he's basically he's spoken to him before as Dickie Greenleaf, but now he's got a beard and pushed his hair back. In the same we're talking about like there's no amount of light and shade. That doesn't make you think that that's not the same guy you spoke to, like two weeks ago. Yeah. Like, look,
I'm being facetious, but I see what you're saying. And, I mean, look, I was really excited to see John Malkovich.
I know who played Ripley in Ripley's game, so. So he kind of pops up sort of as a little bit of a as a hat tip to that.
And then it's funny because we spoke about this earlier when talking about finales, but obviously we are kind of engineered now to always be liking what's next. And already people are like, Ripley, season two obviously is going to be amazing. He's going to be this new version of Thomas Ripley, and he will be teaming up because I think in the books John Malkovich's character, they become literal partners in crime. Absolutely. So I mean, look, that's exciting.
That would be really cool. That'd be really cool. And I think Steve Zaillian, who signed on when this was originally not a Netflix show attached to the showcase in the US. I think the idea was to adapt all the Ripley books, so I'd be into that. But I think the reason I just want to talk about it again is now that I've seen it, I wanted to unpack it with you, but also I want to implore people to watch it. I know it's like not quite
the same as a lot of other Netflix stuff. It's a hard one to second screen like, I think a lot of Netflix stuff. Yeah, a lot of Netflix stuff is made for. It's fun, it's entertaining. It's a bit like you can like, look after your kid, you can eat dinner, you can, you know, do the laundry. You can check Instagram and still keep up with what's going on. This is one that you really need to settle into. I do think it's worth it.
It's really funny. Like all the stuff I've been watching lately is very much not a second screen show like Shogun Khan. Second screen. It got to be reading and it's funny with Ripley, I really need to watch it with the subtitles on. And originally we got screeners and so I don't you probably wouldn't impact you, but I have to watch the subtitles on because I have to have it down low so I don't wake up. My kid screeners didn't have.
Subtitles.
Yet because I really. Yeah, yeah. So I had to, like, always watch it when he was like out of the house. But I think it'll be I think season two, I do reckon people are into it now. Season two will be big and it'll be exciting because hopefully we'll be back by then. I explained to her who Caravaggio is and like what his whole vibe was. So that'll be good. But yeah, look, I if I went too hard last week, I don't want to, you know, go for like J. Cole and retract it. But I still love the show.
I just love the movie too.
Yeah. Well, you mentioned Shogun, which is the other one, and I actually kind of love a show that forces you to be engaged. Shogun does it not just because of its storytelling and its acting, but like 90% of the shows in Japanese. So if you are not watching it, you're missing out. And that can be a little bit annoying in our world where we are like on demand, a lot more messaging people, but it's kind of nice.
I made this sounds like a bit psycho to say, but it's like the closest to meditation that I come to is having to put my phone away to just look at subtitles and enjoy your show for what it is. But that is the insane way that our brains work right now. I kind of.
Agree with you. I really enjoying the reading aspect of showing and I mean like the show is not that easy to watch. Uh, we're episode eight aired this week. I think it's been a slow burn for people. People in the States seems to be eating it up. But the last two episodes particularly, I'm like fucking like locked in for the last two now did.
The initial reviews were kind of like split between is this the new Game of Thrones? Is this succession the creators and interviews have said we thought a lot more about succession. I get both of the comparisons. It slowly started to dawn on me that one of the most succession elements of this show is this question of like fail sons, and that comes up again and again in this. I know people who might not be up to date with it don't want to give away too much in
terms of what actually happens. But right from the start, there is this generational element, these generation of Japanese feudal warlords who have built their power by amazing strategic acumen and fighting fights, and being both great soldiers and great politicians, and then the next generation who've just grown up in the sort of the wealth of it, trying to prove themselves and not doing a great job. That element in both, like it's cutting satire of that kind of person, but
also sometimes it's very dark. Humor is really working for me. The Game of Thrones bits exists, but it's not one for like giant battle scenes. It's not one for like heaps of very literal talk about who's aligning with who. So much of this show is what is unsaid. Like there are these long scenes where someone just like making tea for someone else, and that is displaying some kind
of like power imbalance there. But then I think it has just enough of some faster moving, high octane stuff to keep you like the heart racing.
Well, yeah, especially this most recent episode, episode eight. I mean, obviously I haven't watched Game of Thrones. Sounds like dog shit, but obviously I know it was very graphic and stuff, but there's so much in Shogun is like the threat or discussion of violence, and there's maybe like 3 or 4, like really, really gruesome moments that come out of nowhere.
But they're they're like used sparingly. And in this most recent episode, we see one and it's like it makes a lot of sense why it happens, but it's amazing as well. Like, it's it's quite gruesome and quite gripping. Uh, I definitely think it has huge succession vibes. Like even in, you know, we saw Tanaka who's like, you know, let's essentially say the Logan of the show, he's got a son that like, pulled a pretty Kendall move in the most recent episode. I won't say any more, but yeah,
the power, you know, struggle. And I just have found it. So like, it's one of those shows, four episodes, you're like, what the fuck is going on? And then once it all clicks, you're just like, so invested now I can't wait for. This week's episode.
Yeah. And the way that it has done that, there was a scene a few episodes ago where a big group of people are ambushed. Right? And instead of showing the visceral action, you just see the aftermath of it. And that's like a bit of a bold move because, you know, post Game of Thrones, people love action scenes. I think Shogun has been billed as like a Game
of Thrones, but set in like feudal Japan. And then just like, nah, man, we don't need to show you that because this show is not just about the action, it's about the politics and the intrigue behind it all as well. It is. It's. Yeah, it's it's moving to a conclusion. There's only two episodes left. There's 9 in 10 to go. I kind of don't. Have any idea
what could happen. Like, I've not read the book, I've not seen the original show, but one guy who does seem to know everything that's happening is his main character, Tora Naga, Hiroyuki Sanada. And one thing that I started to bump on a little bit and I want to get your thoughts on this, is so many of the characters are fumbling in the dark. They don't have the master plan, uh, including, you know, the fan favorite John Blackthorne, played by Cosmo Jarvis is just like grunting and yelling
and trying to get back to his ship. Uh, but Tanaka, he seems to be like 14 steps ahead of everyone else. I enjoy him, I think he's great. Hiroyuki Sanada is, like, just absolutely reveling in this role. He's doing such a good job, but a little bit of it is starting to be like, okay, so if we know that he's so far ahead of everything, presumably he's going to win. Does that take in a little bit of the tension out of where things are going?
Yeah, I do, and it almost goes back to what we were talking about before. Like, obviously his main goal in this season is to kind of unite this faction and become the shogun of Japan. And so I do feel like that is inevitable because again, I'm like, well, this show has been such a breakout success. Like, obviously we will get a season two and that season two will probably be him either, like as Shogun, trying to
hold on to power or whatever happens next. So I do feel like maybe it's becoming obvious where it's going to end up, but still, like, I'm kind of happy to sit along and see, um, it's funny, it feels I'm almost getting like the weird succession throwbacks where watching Tanaka, I'm like, man, this guy's got to be a lock for an Emmy and a globe next year. Like, not many performances on TV that that are rivaled that I think in this year to come.
I completely agree. And I think like the the character of Mariko is, is doing a great job as well. I think there's a lot of just really good acting performances as well as the writing going on and.
So much good luck. What we we know we love this, like facial acting so much good silent acting because there is like the scenes are not very dialogue heavy. Like this is not like the fucking West Wing. Yeah, yeah. So like there's so much said when there's like not much said, um. So yeah, I think I understand if you haven't got into Shogun yet and I know it's like eight episodes and they're dense like the most recent
one was like over an hour. I still really think that people should just, like, commit.
Well, there's a couple of other things to recommend, even though that was kind of an extended recommendation. Uh, little segment. But our regular Impress Your Friends is back where we recommend something we watch, listened to, read, or consumed in the past week. Mine is another TV show. It is called The Sympathizer. It drops on HBO in America on Sunday. So to be here in Australia on Binge on Monday afternoon, it's based on the 2015 Pulitzer Prize winning book by
Viet Thanh Nguyen. The show has been adapted by Park Chan wook and Don McKellar. Park Chan wook is the director of one of my favorite films in recent years, Decision to Leave. Also Oldboy, a bunch of wonderful Korean films. He's worked in TV as well. He adapted John le Carré's Little Drummer Girl a few years ago. Uh, so the story is set in the 70s, and it's based on the story. There's one soldier, a North Vietnamese plant.
He's a spy in the South Vietnam army. He's forced to flee to the US with the fall of Saigon at the end of the Vietnam War. And he's living with a group of South Vietnamese, I guess, refugees in in the States, but he's continuing to spy on them for the North Vietnamese, for the Viet Cong. So he's struggling between like, his loyalties and trying to adapt in this country. So many layers of like being a migrant, being a migrant in a, uh, from a, you know,
racially and culturally marginalized group in America. And then within that feeling like you're a traitor because you're actually part of the group that sent these people there. Uh, it stars Sean Day as the main character is actually Australian. Uh, he was in Ronnie Chang's International student, Hungry Ghosts, last King of the cross. He was in the live action Cowboy Bebop. He is really, really good in this. It's a.
Huge awesome.
Win for for him. And he's alongside none other than Robert Downey Jr and Robert Downey Jr. I don't want to give too much away because what he does in the show is pretty fascinating, pretty unique in terms of what he's playing. It's really interesting. Does he do more.
Than he did in Oppenheimer?
Yeah, he does significantly more. I think if you're like, I like Robert Downey Jr. But I thought he was overhyped. And Oppenheimer this is like astonishing. The peak of of I think some of his acting.
Yeah I feel like it's been getting really hot and HBO you know hits and misses lately, but I'm keen to see it. Yeah.
What have you got for us?
Uh, I've actually had another long read. Oh, I know coming. The Long Read guy in Mel's absence. This one's from the New Yorker. It's a recent one. It's from last week. Uh, and it's by Andrew Ohagan. The Scottish author wrote mayflies. It's actually got another book coming out this year. Really good writer, but it's called the title is Scooter Braun
and the Twilight of the Music Manager. Um, and I thought was really interesting because I've been kind of, like, quietly fascinated with the fall, I guess, the rise and fall of Scooter Braun, you know, as, as lots of people know to the stars. Yeah. Like Bieber, he kind of likes credited with, you know, finding Justin Bieber and Ariana Grande and all these, like, pop stars that we know now. And Scooter Braun was kind of like the brand.
And of course, he had a very high profile, um, you know, public falling out with Taylor Swift after he basically bought her masters. And this article basically charts the, the, you know, it's called The Twilight of the Music Manager, and it charts the role of these, like, kind of career creators throughout time. So it starts like it goes from like, you know, Colonel Parker with Elvis, who we saw in, you know, the Elvis film and then it talks.
Brian Epstein with the Beatles and all the way to Scooter Braun, and it talks about how the industry has changed in such a way that these people who, like, could, you know, make or break stars are no longer needed. And Scooter Braun was perhaps the last. Great. That's really interesting. So it was. Yeah, it was interesting.
I was like, sold his company to some South Korean, like, music.
Yeah, I think he's basically like, you know, his brand has been tarnished and.
It's like a middle tier bureaucrat in another company.
Yeah, exactly. So yeah, that was a good long read. And you know, there's so much good TV and stuff out. But I thought he wanted to tap out. And you were sick of reading Shogun then? This is good. Yeah.
Hard to read that whilst watching Shogun or Ripley. Yeah. Um, but maybe I don't know if you're doing a rewatches of curb. You could also read that on your second screen, correct? Yes. Thomas, that was great. Thanks so much, man. Perfect.
Thanks for having me.
This episode of The Drop was produced by Chai Wang. If you enjoyed listening to today's episode of The Drop, make sure to follow us in your favorite podcast app. Leave us a review or better yet, share it with a friend! I'm Usman Farooqui. See you next week!