Hey there. I'm Osman Farooqui and this is The Drop, a culture show from the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age, where we dive into the latest in the world of pop culture and entertainment. I'm here back with Thomas Mitchell and Mel Kambouris. What's up, guys? We're doing good.
Yeah, just happy to be back. Happy to see. We're going to get into it. But country music finally having its long overdue moment. So, yeah, I'm excited for this one.
Yeah, it's been good. I feel like you've been waiting for this episode for some time and you've certainly been singing a lot in the office, correct?
So there's so many times you can pitch it and then eventually it catches.
There are very few people in my life when I say that. Actually it's literally just you, Thomas, who a genuine, I think, aficionados and fans of country music. So the kind of events of the last few weeks, months and yeah maybe even longer than that we'll get into it have made me think about you a lot. It's been
a pretty interesting ride. So over the last couple of weeks, one particular song, a country song that was written and recorded by a complete unknown, was released on YouTube, didn't have the backing of a major label, and it became the biggest song in the world.
I've been selling my soul. Working all day overtime, hours for bullshit pay so I can sit out here and waste my life away.
Drive back home and drown my troubles away.
It's a damn shame.
What the world's gotten to for people like me. People like you Wish I could just wake up and not be true. But it is.
That song is called Rich Men North of Richmond. It's by an artist who performs under the name Oliver Anthony, and it's very, very popular. It's also very, very controversial. It even popped up at the US Republican presidential debate last week and it's been number one on the Billboard charts for two weeks now. It's rocketing up the Australian
Aria charts as well. So it's a good opportunity to not just talk about that song, Richmond, north of Richmond, and what its success kind of tells us about music right now, but also this broader trend of country having I don't even think it's a resurgence. It actually is probably bigger and more popular in Australia and in the US than it probably has ever been, which I think is really, really interesting. The number one song in Australia right now is a country song. You get a.
Fast car and I want to tick it.
To anywhere. Maybe we make a deal, maybe together we can.
Get somewhere and it places better. Starting from zero got nothing to lose. Maybe we'll make something. Me, myself. I got nothing to prove.
In the United States. Top three songs are all country songs, and that's never happened before in history. The last time there were two country songs in the top two positions was back when Dolly Parton released 9 to 5 more than 40 years ago. So there's a big, big change from the last couple of years, which have been pretty pop and hip hop dominated, which we've spoken about on
this show before. Thomas Before we get into too many of the specific things, just as a country guy, are you living right now?
To be fair, let's clarify. You're not from the country.
So as a country music guy, yeah, In.
Fact, I'm definitely not from the country. Look, I think it's really interesting because I actually found my way into country music through my wife, whose family is from the country. They're from Dubbo in the central mid-west of New South Wales.
Oh, that's like proper country territory, a stone's throw from the Tamworth Country Music Festival.
Exactly. And this is why I think country music is so great because like, I went into it with the same approach that so many people have country music, which is like a bit of an eye roll, like it exists in a vacuum. People know it's a genre and if you're not into it, you're not into it, and you don't even kind of like it doesn't even cross your radar. But it was like forced upon me on the six hour drives to Dubbo when I was like
questioning the decisions I'd made to marry her etcetera. And now I like couldn't like I couldn't be more of a country music fan. And I you know, we spoke a long time ago when it was announced that Luke Combs was touring Australia, one of the fastest selling tours of last year. And I pitched him to you and you trusted me. But I could tell in your eyes you were like, Who is this? What is this story?
I felt like I was going out on a limb, like I was not across Luke Combs. You did a very good job of explaining why he was important. And to be honest, you were vindicated because it was such a big tour. And he's so big.
Yeah, You were more stressed about getting Luke Luke's tickets for his shows here than you were about having a baby, I think.
Yes. And I've never.
Month I've.
Never pulled in so many favors to get those tickets. Well, not.
Just you, but, you know, South Sydney star Latrell Mitchell famously loves Luke Combs. Couldn't get tickets. And I think he did like a weird press conference where he's like, Please, Sony, give me tickets.
And he goes And lo and behold, he and I pulled the same strings. And then my wife went with Latrell Mitchell to the concert. She was sitting next to him. He she said, like he this is a side we can get rid of this like 60 people asked him for photos. That's not an.
Aside any opportunity to talk about rugby league and the South Sydney Rabbitohs is a great moment on this podcast.
Exactly. And so yes, once again it's been proven that Latrell and I have the same immaculate taste.
So before countries kind of rise now into kind of across into the mainstream, you were listening to like country radio and some of those kind of lesser known country singers.
No, like a lot of the old school country her family is into. But then you very much noticed like, you know, country would play at their family get togethers and stuff. But then all of the young generation, it's all very much like Morgan Wallen, Luke Combs, like they were. The first time I heard these guys was like from the young members of their like country family. And then kind of it's probably in the last like 2 or
3 years. And then now all of a sudden, everyone I know is like a Luke Combs fan, a Morgan Wallen guy, like is obsessed with this movement. And so, yeah, here we are.
And Mel, you're you're a sophisticated, urbane thinking woman.
Well, I would not call her urbane.
Thank you so much. I think.
I don't really know what urbane means. I thought it just meant you come from the city, which is my understanding of your background. My guess is that maybe a bit more like me. You haven't had a sort of long term country affinity.
Yeah, I think that's fair to say. I think country crossover, I'm probably, you know, we all listen to that. Shania Twain was very big part of my childhood. Kacey Musgraves, Carrie Underwood.
Like, let's.
Go, girls. Every time we had girls and in the WhatsApp stream.
Absolutely I do, man. I feel like a woman every time before I come on the podcast. So I think I have like my knowledge of country other than kind of the classics, Dixie Chicks, Dolly Parton, Johnny Cash is probably more those ones that cross into the commercial, though I have to say, I really do like country music films like Nashville. Oh Brother, Where Art Thou Walk the Line Crazy Heart. Like I have watched a fair few country films as well.
So I think now that we've kind of shared our base levels of like knowledge and appreciation of the genre, it's a good opportunity to start talking about what the hell has been going on in the last few weeks, because I think like even if this song Richmond, north of Richmond, had not bubbled up, this would still be a really fascinating chat just because of these these big hits,
the Morgan Wallen, the Luke Holmes, everything going on. But what this song Oliver Anthony has done is just so fascinating and weird that it takes, I think, a little bit of unpacking to really to really convey how significant and bizarre this kind of moment in music is. It deserves its own deep dive. Thomas As not just the bigger fan of country, but the only person in my
life who actually messaged me about this song. I think maybe you could help us out here by giving us a bit of background to what it is, where it came from, and a little bit about its meteoric rise.
It's worth mentioning that historically country music has often had that association with the conservative movement. It's, you know, it's often working class songs about people from the land, and
often those two things align. And, you know, we've had a bit of a weird situation where only a few months ago, Jason Aldean, another massive country star, had a big hit with Try That in a Small Town, which was this kind of weird anthem, almost like, you know, there was shades of like antebellum in it where it was like, don't be bringing those protests to our small town. And it became quite a big hit and it flared up. This thing that we've seen before in country music where
it's like, is there this underlying unpleasantness? You know, we've talked about people like Morgan Wallen, who has had his own, you know, issues in the past with race related incidents. And even Luke Combs, who I love, has apologized for rocking a Confederate flag in the past. So with all of that context, you know, there is this feeling around country music that sometimes it belongs to the right.
Yeah, there's a vibe that country music overlaps with, like Confederate right wing Republican sort of stuff.
Right, Exactly. And they're all kind of like cooking away in the same broth, which could be the great name for a.
Country song, a gumbo, even, you know. Yes.
Anyway, cut to August 8th, 2023, and a song Richmond, north of Richmond, is uploaded to YouTube by Oliver Anthony Music, which is Oliver Anthony's performing name. Pretty quickly. This song, which features a guy with a red beard, his dog is next to him. He seems to be standing in some kind of lovely outdoor area. He's picking a banjo and he's basically singing about the Washington elites who are the rich men north of Richmond.
The Richmond North. Richmond, Lord knows all, just want to have total control. Want to know what.
You think.
Want to know what you do. And they don't think you know. But I know that you do because your dollar ain't shit and it's tax to no ten Cause the rich man knows the rich man.
And it's kind of this like rallying cry. He's complaining about politicians and taxes and welfare and and there's a real struggling working man's kind of vibe. The song blows up on YouTube and goes viral, you know, viral in the almost the old school YouTube viral way, talking tens of millions of views within a few days. It went to number one in the US iTunes all genres chart. It went to number one on Spotify, US and eventually kind of the Holy Grail. It debuted at number one
on the Billboard Hot 100 chart. He's the first artist to ever notch a top single with no prior chart history. Well, essentially what happened is, you know, there are a few kind of controversial moments in the song. He starts to kind of talk about these like, Washington elites, but then it feels less like a shot at everyone. And there are shades of like he starts talking about overweight people.
He starts talking about welfare cheats. There are some really weird moments where he seems to reference Jeffrey Epstein's island, where, you know, talks about minors on an island. And essentially as the song became bigger and started to blow up online, you're seeing it on like Instagram and Facebook and TikTok, and people are kind of like trying to figure out the messaging. And that's where it starts to become this strange viral moment, which has been like, I guess, grasped
by the right and they've made it theirs. Now, on top of that, you've got Anthony as the song has become bigger coming out and he's basically being forced to like declare his position. Where does he stand in all this? Who is this guy? Is he some kind of like conservative plant? He releases a video that says he is politically dead center. And it seems that both sides serve the same master and that master is not someone of
any good to the people of the country. However, as is often the case with any kind of Internet explosion, people start digging into his past and it seems there are kind of several moments where perhaps he is that way inclined. And then as we mentioned earlier, the song then gets mentioned during the Republican debate. Fox play a snippet of the surprise chart topper during the debate and talk about why has this struck such a chord with people.
And and I think Ron DeSantis said, you know, our country is in decline.
Our country is in decline. This decline is not inevitable. It's a choice. We need to send Joe Biden back to his basement and reverse American decline.
The decline is not inevitable, and we need to send Joe Biden back. And this song speaks to that.
We we also cannot succeed when the Congress spends trillions and trillions of dollars. Those rich men north of Richmond have put us in this situation. And finally, we need to lower your gas prices. We're going to.
Again, Anthony has come out post that and said like, this is not what the song is about. This is not what we should be doing with this song. And essentially, you've got Richmond, north of Richmond, less than a month ago, uploaded to YouTube by a no name artist, and all of a sudden it's become this cultural flashpoint for country music at a time when country music is bigger than ever.
And it's making people kind of, I guess, think about the messaging, think about how we interpret art, but also like how easily things can be weaponized for the purpose of cultural wars. It's a really.
Good summary and I think it seems like it's almost impossible to kind of untangle this song itself. Like its kind of merits and its popularity from the culture war around it. Like when I first saw this song, it wasn't on YouTube. It wasn't sort of someone saying, Hey,
this is a pretty good song. It was on social media where it was being shared by a lot of very high profile right wing influencers, people like Matt Walsh, Jack Posobiec with these big kind of like alt right guys that have millions and millions of followers on X.com, which used to be Twitter. And it sort of feels like that's a big part of this story as well.
Like even if you separate out and we'll get into it, whatever Oliver Anthony's kind of politics are, it was latched onto so quickly that these guys were sort of pushing it as a right wing anthem. It was getting boosted in these social media algorithms and even it reaching number one.
There's been some theories that perhaps a lot of wealthy conservatives were buying digital downloads, which count for more on the charts than just your average Spotify YouTube stream, which maybe gamed the charts to to send it up to number one. So it is very hard to sort of separate out all of these things. We'll try for a second at least to just talk about the song itself and why maybe it felt like it struck a chord.
I don't love this kind of music generally, but I was kind of attracted to the video of just this kind of regular looking guy singing songs. And yes, we'll talk about some of those more controversial and frankly, bizarre lyrics. But. Pretty broad themes of just being a guy, wanting to work hard and not have greedy elite politicians kind of like strip you from what you're trying to do for your family. And he had a lot of emotion. It's also catchy. It's got a chorus that kind of gets
stuck in your head. It has all the bits and pieces to make a song resonate. Whether or not it would have gone to number one without this big discourse around it, I am not sure, but I kind of think the song is pretty good, I guess as far as country songs go. What are your guys vibes?
Yeah, I mean, the man can sing and I think it's his passionate delivery that has got so many people interested in it and watching it and listening to it because you really do feel feel he's feeling, which I think is is rare in a lot of music out there today. I think you can obviously play as well that comes across. And then there is that kind of raw authenticity, pared back ness of the video. I agree with you that the man is obviously talented and yeah, yeah.
I think it's that funny thing where like, you know, it had all the right elements. It's got this kind of like very, you know, average Joe looking guy, like just like heart on the sleeve, like pouring it out. And he's really like, pinching at the right moment. So he's like, you know, the man's taxing us. You're working all day. They want total control. And that's the thing. Like, I'd seen it and I'd seen it on my Spotify, Then I made mine text me and he was like, Oh,
I think I loved that right wing song. And I was like, knew exactly what he was saying. And then like, I kind of listened to it and I'm like, Fuck yeah, man. Like, I hate taxing my money. And like, I was, like, fully swept up. Completely. Yeah.
Thomas. Thomas Every morning Thomas is texting, being like one of the stage three tax cuts coming.
I've been stressing about them. Definitely didn't have to Google him after he text me back.
The other day. I mean, you don't hear a lot of people sing about tax.
Do you know, this is the thing.
And so I'm kind of like he's doing like the first listen, he's like singing. I'm like vibing it. I'm like, fully getting swept up. And then, yeah, then it was like the Epstein bit. I was like, Oh, what? Like all of us, we were doing so well. So like, it kind of, yeah, I can see how people have been sucked in and this is an amazing one to
go into the comment section of the YouTube video. Like I highly recommend if you're listening to this, pay a visit there because it's so like that is like there is the debate like it's all there.
Yeah, it.
Is like a Rorschach test. I feel like whatever your politics are, there's enough in this song, which isn't really that long to appeal to you. Like the the very end of the song is I've been selling my soul, working all day overtime, hours for bullshit pay. Like, that's not a right wing trope. That's just a guy in an era which is very well reported everywhere, that it's very hard working at the moment. Like, yeah, the.
First verse is a very populist message really. And then I think it's the second verse that has become the most contested.
Yeah, yeah. Should we talk about those references? Because they do feel they feel odd and it might just be because this song is by an American who's kind of cooking in the American media ecosystem and where Australians and well, we're across things like Jeffrey Epstein obviously and you know concerns from the right that welfare pledges exist, blah blah, blah, whatever. It felt very specific to talk about these kinds of things.
So he, he talks about how he wishes politicians would look out for minors and not just minors on an island somewhere, which feels like an Epstein dog whistle. And maybe he hasn't really thought it through, but is he sort of saying stop paying attention to pedophilia happening in like the Caribbean and look after West Virginians who are losing their jobs because the coal industry is going out of business? I couldn't quite figure it out.
Yeah, and I think that's kind of the general take on it. It's like it's a very weird argument to make. Like you can always make the argument about the, you know, the minors within are like without having to. It's just that he thought, oh, those two words are the same. So I can like fit, oh.
There's two kinds.
Of miners. And then obviously, you know, there's the whole like Jeffrey Epstein thing has become so wrapped up in this movement, too. So it's like it felt like, was this a weird Easter egg? And then suddenly the tone changes.
Yeah. And also Trump was very connected to Epstein, Right? So you kind of that would go against the argument that this is some kind of conservative anthem.
But then I feel like I feel like that lyric generally people have been like, okay, weird, strange one to include. But I really feel like especially, you know, given the state of play in America, the comments about like the overweight people like Lords, we got folk on the street and got nothing to eat and the obese milk and welfare, that's the one that really seemed to like cause this divide between people because it's like, well, hold on, what is Olive Anthony trying to do? Which fire is he
trying to stoke? You know, he he has a lyric about a bag of fudge rounds, which we don't have in Australia, but they do look delicious.
What are they, like, a sort of cookie or something?
Yeah, cookie with fudge inside them.
Well, there's been a lot of discussion around how you actually don't buy. And I love the level of like hyper textual analysis that has gone into this song. You actually don't buy bags of fudge rounds. You buy boxes. And a lot of people are using that to say, Well, this wasn't a song that was written for him.
Because is a loaf of bread. No, he doesn't. An executive would know.
What it would know that it's boxes.
Ridiculous.
I guess that leads into the broader question of like what the politics of this song actually are. And as we've mentioned, the riot and kind of the alt right, I guess even more so, were very quick to say this is a white working man's southern Appalachian revolt against the Washington fat cats represented by Joe Biden. Whatever. The more I think about the song, the more I listen to it, the more I look at the reaction to it.
I actually think that was a very maybe smart thing for these kinds of actors to do to claim this populist anthem as representing their politics. But I actually think that's not really the right reading of this song. Like, I think it is an explicit condemnation of like the corporate political class. And yet these references to Epstein a kind of weird and his attacks on, you know people eating cookies on welfare whatever it's like that's not a
good thing. I'm not trying to defend that. But it's also like that is wrapped up in a lot of, you know. Critiques people have of the way the political system works. And that is a narrative that is pushed by very big, powerful, compelling media organizations, not just in America, but in Australia as well, that if you're working class person who's struggling to make ends meet, the real problem is governments trying to tax you and spend that money
on welfare cheats. Like that's just been part of political discourse for a long time. I don't think it is right to say that everyone who automatically believes that line is part of like a kind of a far right ecosystem. Though, like I said, I think it's very smart for the right to take a song that was always going to resonate with heaps of working class people and say, If you like this song, you're actually right wing and that means you hate Joe Biden and it means you love
Donald Trump. And so I think all of Anthony now has had to face that discourse and he's had to come out publicly many times and say, I don't like Republicans claiming the song. I don't think the left wing Democrat should try and claim it either. My problem is the entire system, which also feels pretty like that's a pretty compelling message. I think most people these days are not really partisan one way or another. They just don't like politicians, right?
Yeah, great. I also like how he's spoken about how he's been offered all these amazing deals and stadium tours and $8 million record contracts. And he's like, I don't want any of that. I just want to sing what I feel. But I do think that is interesting because the fact that he is ostensibly non-partisan really shows how the song's been appropriated into the culture wars, which we
see all the time throughout history. And even here. Like you kind of look at something like Bruce Pascoe's Dark EMU, a piece of culture, regardless of what it is in itself, becomes a tool for different sides. So I think his denial actually not denial, he's kind of statement on it. It makes the story more interesting in a way, because then you do look at not so much the song and what it's saying itself, but how it's being used by people in.
Interesting to see what happens to him now though, because post the Republican debate, he was quite firm in being like, you know definitely I find this funny that you would try and adopt my song. Like it's making fun of people like you and I think if there's anything we know well enough, it's that like as quickly as a movement like the Conservatives might adopt you, they will like drop you pretty quickly too, if it feels like you're
no longer, like, helpful to the message. So like, I feel like all the Anthony has been pretty forthright in being like, No, I'm dead in the middle. And you know, the nature of being a viral video star is that often it doesn't last very long. So it be interesting to see because I think like his next 2 or 3 songs are still charted really high on the billboard. So he's still got like the 15 minutes of fame, like working for him. But let's see where we are in like October. November.
Yeah. And it was interesting how quickly some Republicans were like doing a bit of a reverse milkshake duck on him. Like there was this clip that went viral of him being asked about like diversity or migration or something. And he's like, America is a melting pot. And cultural diversity like makes us strong. And all these people who a few days ago had been like, yeah, this guy is standing up against like, you know, Biden wanting to dilute American purity and he sucks now. And that was that
was real interesting. I mean, like this this phenomenon of conservatives claiming the songs that resonate with everyday people is not new. Right? Like, I feel like Bruce Springsteen's Born in the USA is his classic song, which is an indictment on like the political class. Again, like a lot
of Springsteen's music, Republican politicians love using that song. And I feel like, if anything, what this whole issue is about and this is not a political podcast is the culture podcast, but these two things are very wrapped up together. I feel like this conundrum exists because what so many regular people feel and think about politics now is really
disconnected from like mainstream political parties. Like a lot of people do feel like the system's not working and that doesn't neatly map onto either the Democrats or the Republicans. It's just a general sense of stuff not working, which is why people like Donald Trump, who came from outside the system and Bernie Sanders, etcetera, have had a lot
of success. And so when you try to say this is a anti elite working class anthem, therefore it means it is Republican or therefore it means it is Democrat, it just doesn't really work. So you guys were wondering whether or not it will be a flash in the pan kind of thing, like try that in a small
town or whether it. Could have staying power. You know, he releases an album and whether that ends up being a big charting success, I feel like that brings us to the bigger picture conversation about the fact that this is not happening in isolation. Country music is completely dominating the charts in the United States, but also here in Australia. The number one song in Australia a few weeks ago was Morgan Wallen's.
Last night on You and Me. I know that last night we live. Top. I can't remember everything we said, but we said it all. You told me that you wished I was somebody you never met. A baby.
Baby Luke Holmes's fast car. The cover of Tracy Chapman song is currently number two in Australia. You get a.
Fast car and I want to take it to.
Anywhere. Maybe we make a deal. Maybe together we can get somewhere and it places better.
Starting from zero. Got nothing to lose.
Maybe we'll make something in the US. Those two songs and Richmond, North Richmond make up the top three. Thomas. Sorry to keep relying on you as like, the longer term country music guy. From where I sit, it seems like this has happened pretty quickly, but is there background to this as it's been happening, bubbling up behind the scenes for longer than than people like me think it has been?
Well, yeah, I don't know like it is. I do think it actually has been pretty rapid. And I think that's why there is so much like dialogue around it because, you know, it's probably been the last like 6 to 12 months that the real crossover like has exploded. Like, you know, like I said, there's always been like the country music charts and there's always been the country music stars and they have the Country Music Awards and it's just this weird like world that exists. But like people
in the normal world don't really visit it. But I feel like in the last 12 months, the crossover has been enormous, like we all know about, you know, the kind of like, I guess Taylor Swift method of she started life out as a kind of like a country pop star. She had her time in Nashville. Some of her early stuff is like very country esque. And then she's obviously now the biggest pop star in the world. But this, like most recent explosion, I think has been
so condensed. Like, you know, I would say like 12 months ago, most people did not know the names Luke Combs and Morgan Wallen and Zach Bryan. But now, like we're sitting here doing a country podcast about how it's exploded in culture. So I do think it's something to do with. It's hard to put my finger on exactly why I think it's happened. I suspect it's something to do with a lot of like, really palatable country stars of the same like age and like, taste coming up
at the same time. And they've all infiltrated like the mainstream, just enough to raise the awareness, like just enough. And then suddenly there's just been these like, breakthrough. You know, someone like Morgan Wallen especially, he's very much done the that tried and true country method of like when you're wanting to tap into the mainstream, you go and get
a mainstream feature. So he's worked with like Diplo and like different rappers and stuff like that and that's I think like a lot of country music artists do, is they'll go and just like Chuck a random, you know, like pop star on their track, someone like Luke Combs hasn't really done that. But I think all these different factors of like come together in perfect harmony.
Yeah, it's like a rising tide lifts all boats sort of a thing. I asked Aria with the last time a country song had gone to number one, and it's actually a really interesting answer because if I asked you guys would you know what the answer was?
I think I would probably guess someone like Keith Urban. Maybe.
Maybe Taylor Some of early earlier.
Taylor Yeah. So this is a really interesting one. So what are you. Categorizes as the last number one country song is Lil Nas X and Billy Ray Cyrus Old Town wrote in 2018, which spent 13 weeks. And that's really interesting for two reasons, because I think it was controversially not classified as country when it was released and it was this big debate about it. The country music establishment sort of said, No, this shouldn't be country. And
a lot of people responded and said, Well, why? Like it has all the hallmarks of a country song, but because it's like a young queer black guy that is like rapping more than he's singing. And that's kind of why Billy Ray Cyrus jumped on. He said that I think this is a country song. If I'm on it,
that can't say it's not a country song. And I also think why that's interesting is because I think this current moment that you encapsulated so well just there, Thomas, I think you can trace it back to that crossover. I think that was probably the first time that country vibes, you know, the kind of banjo, even hearing Billy Ray Cyrus again became a mainstream popular thing for a generation that just probably hadn't heard country if they weren't listening to country radio.
And it's obviously impossible to ignore, like the racialized element of the fact that they wouldn't classify him as country and the fact that country music is still dominated by straight white men and even women like we talk about. Taylor Swift was pushed out of country in a way to mainstream pop because I don't think country really accepts
it's still does have a race and woman problem. And I think Lil Nas X is really interesting because he did try to cross into that but ultimately couldn't be part of it.
Yeah. And if you go back to the last number one before Nas X, you have to go all the way back to 2008, which was Taylor Swift's love story. I think what's even more interesting in a way about the fact that like in the last couple of decades, it's really only been Taylor Swift and Lil Nas X is that those two people are very, very different to Luke Holmes and Morgan Wallen and Oliver Anthony, who are
actually way more traditional. They're not like pop crossovers. They're two middle aged or like slightly older than, you know, Taylor Swift was and Lil Nas X was white guys with guitars singing much more traditional country songs. And that feels really unique and interesting. And I think it's important to remember that the context for the last couple of decades really has been the dominance of pop and hip hop, which has been largely driven by like women and people
of color. It's a really fascinating turn of events and like there seems to be a few different like we talked about the overlap with hip hop. Mel You've sort of got a bit of a red hot take about why Morgan Wallen has kind of managed to be so popular. Do you want to deliver it.
Joshua I mean, I don't think it's a red hot tag. I think it's a it's quite obvious. No, I mean, okay, play the opening notes of last night with like last night we let the liquor talk and then.
Now we let.
The liquor.
So I'm so glad you've done it.
Last night we lit the liquor talk. I can't remember everything we said, but we said.
And then play the start of, like, the kid laroi thousand miles. I know that look on your face. I know the look on your face.
You're coming my way. You're coming my way tonight. Here goes another mistake I know I'm gonna make. I know I'm gonna make tonight.
Oh, and tell me that they are not both working with the same kind of beats. And it's the. The trap beats of, like, hip hop. Right? And these are kind of and I was saying to Thomas earlier that I think like they're kind of post Malone to there's like something there he's got a bit of the country and I think they're country crossover and I think they're kind of Morgan Wallen is like a classic pop club hit really and not country.
Yeah.
I think I mean hearing you talk about trap beats is obviously one of my favorite.
Things to get your take.
On trap.
Regularly. No, but I do.
Think you're right. Like I would I as someone who listens to a lot of this music, I reckon Morgan Wallen, like Luke Combs, is like bona fide country guy. Morgan Wallen is definitely like playing the game more. And he's like, his songs are so much more accessible to like, a
pop friendly crowd. And then he pulls you in. If you listen to like his latest album, like track by track, you can kind of pick out like 3 or 4 songs to like, Oh yeah, this is like, you can play this at CMC Rocks and people will go off, but other other ones you could play at like the V Music Awards and they're just like straight up pop bangers. Whereas I would say Luke Combs is like even, you know,
like aesthetically he looks like such a country dude. And his songs, he doesn't really do like, you know, the kind of like tastemaker pop beats and stuff like that.
And it's probably also worth reflecting on the fact that. Even though Luke Holmes is broadly like quite popular. I'm not trying to detract from that. The song that took him to number one is a cover of an extremely famous song that has been covered a lot faster. So it's actually quite smart. I think that the country music industry and these artists in particular have found ways to embrace this very popular form of music for some parts of the world. And like country music has always been popular.
What we're talking about is its crossover into the complete kind of puppy mainstream. And they've done that by, in the case of Morgan Wallen, collaborating with Diplo, with Lil Durk, by infusing that kind of trap scent into it. I know I sort of stitched you up, Mel. I said to Red Hot Dog, but it's actually very sharp criticism. Like it is exactly what you.
I'm very urbane.
You know what's so funny, though? Like Luke Combs was on auditioned for The Voice and they said to him, Oh, no, like, really good. But like, you don't quite have it. And like, you know, in these talent shows, like every year they have like the country guy and like, they'll have like one.
Morgan Wallen was also a season six contestant of The Voice and like in America went pretty well whatever and then has become like easily the biggest star the show has had any show like that probably since like Kelly Clarkson. But basically they both had like mixed bag experiences on these talent shows. Luke Combs didn't even get as far as getting on TV where they recorded his audition. Anyway,
cut to today, he's really popular. The Voice has just started again here in Australia and I was like watching a couple of episodes Fuck Me Dead. There are so many country artists. It's like you can tell already, like people are going on there and it's no longer like, Oh, okay, we'll give you the obligatory one country musician that makes it into the top 12 and he struggles to like adapt. There was like heaps of them. So you can tell even from like through the weird like lens of a
talent music show. You can tell how much it's like seeped through.
Yeah. And that's the thing about the way the music industry works is success begets like, if not success, then at least imitators. And I think music labels will be looking at this, even non country labels and saying, okay, it's time for us to invest very heavily in finding the next Oliver Anthony, the next Morgan Wall and the next Luke Holmes, whatever. I have a question for you guys in terms of like whether you actually we know Thomas does, but how much you actually like this kind
of music. And if there are other country artists that maybe aren't chiding that you have more of a vibe for metal, I kind of gave you the worst homework you maybe have ever had to listen to like 5 or 6 different country artists. And I think you're probably. But even.
Though even the even the worst homework is like the best day of mill's life, this is the.
Type of analysis.
Yeah. Obviously like completed the the assignment.
I've actually done some extra reading and.
Why I'm the most interested in your opinion on this because I feel like you're coming to this the coldest, right? Like just listening to a bunch of different stuff. Like what do you think were like, what do you think about Luke Holmes and Morgan Wallen and how does that compare to maybe some of the other stuff I forced you to listen to?
Okay. So Morgan, Morgan, I like good, catchy tune, not super interesting, I don't think musically, but catchy tune. Luke I'm sorry. Thomas I know he's your main, your main country bro. I find the music a bit boring and I don't think I like that kind of. I guess it is the traditional country style. Same with Oliver Anthony. Like I've not really enjoyed like.
The the heartbreak and the whiskey and the beer and the bar.
Stool. Yeah, the big open roads.
But you know, one that Oz did put me on to Zach Bryan I think is my guy. Zach real talent. And I loved he did a obviously something in the orange is his big one that's like.
He's country with an asterix to.
Me I think.
Oh God because he's good.
Yeah. He's like.
He's basically like, man in my like, Seth Cohen phase, I probably would listen to him and just like vibed out, he's like barely country.
But his lyrics, I think are really beautiful as well as his voice. And he did a collaboration with and I love that he picked this person, Maggie Rogers, a kind of indie alternative darling. And that Dawn song is Do you like that song? Was I.
Love It. Yeah.
Yeah. I think he's far a cut above the rest musically, lyrically.
It'll be fine by dusk. But I'm telling you, baby. These things. Eat at your bones and drive your young man crazy.
But when you place your hand between my collar and your. I don't know much. There's no edit all.
Yeah, I am a big Zac Brown head and as far as country goes, it's probably he's really the only kind of us country artist that I actually go out of my way to listen to. And I think an interesting thing that he's been doing that is also a maybe underreported part of what's going on. I've been speaking to a few different industry people over the last few weeks to sort of ask them their opinion as to
how this started to happen. All of a sudden they say, well, actually there's been a lot of strategy put in from country labels to figure out how to make the charts work for them and copy some of what hip hop and pop artists have been doing. And that's not the same thing as kind of borrowing from their sound. It's actually to do with the structure of songs. So the way that charts work in both the charts here in Australia and with the Billboard charts, they're a combination of
actual physical sales, digital download sales. When you buy a song on iTunes and streams and hip hop artists in particular have become very good at releasing shorter songs, which means you play them more, which means those streams count more and also albums with a lot of songs on them. So when you play an entire album, you might be playing like 20, 25, 30 songs, so that boosts your
overall album. Sales and country artists have been slower to this because most of the country success is still driven by country radio in the US and the South in particular. But all of these artists Zach, Bryan, Morgan Wallen, Luke Holmes are releasing long albums, in some cases 30 track albums and shorter songs. And even though this is the most boring part of the conversation about the music, I think it is a big factor as to why they're being boosted. And it's worked right because now we're all
talking about country. Other labels will invest in this kind of a thing. I think this is not the peak. I think this is probably the start of a pretty interesting shift in the return of this kind of music. And the other question I've got for you guys is, you know, there was a genre that's kind of been missing in the last ten, 15 years, and it's basically like, dude, rock. Like it's been very rare for bands or even solo artists who are just guys with guitar, with drums, like
having big chart success. Does this feel like it's plugging the gap that's been missing?
Well, I mean, you went to Red Hot Chili Peppers recently, so.
Yeah, don't try and tell me that male white rockers aren't still a big deal.
This is.
Basically being like, I just think there's not enough.
Dude rock out there. And so.
Well, I've not been the guy complaining about the lack of it. I've been enjoying the domination of pop and hip hop. But it is true that there's a big demographic of people that don't vibe with that stuff and have been listening to this stuff in the background and it seems to be coming back.
And it is interesting. Like country music is one of the last kind of, you know, in not many other industries are kind of white straight men completely dominating the field like everything else has opened up. And I guess.
Sorry.
Should.
Go industry by industry and fact checked you on.
That's well at.
Least making an effort whereas the.
White woman.
Is inherent to what country music or some country music purports to be. And I think it's pretty interesting because we were talking about Brian and how much we love him. And you said, Oh, that's country music with an Asterix. And I actually think there's going to be a pretty interesting divide between pop country and traditional classic country, which we did see when hip hop became a thing. There were all different strains of it. And what is hip hop?
What's not? Because like my understanding is that Zach Bryan doesn't actually get a lot of country radio airtime in the US and the country community over there doesn't like him, and that's maybe why he's picked someone like Maggie Rogers as a feature to break into the mainstream. So I think it will be pretty interesting what classic country lovers will think of its movement into into the mainstream. But I think.
That that happens a lot. Like I remember even reading this like New York Times did a big profile on Luke Combs, like maybe late last year, which is always the sign that you're you've made it. And they they kind of asked him about like the fact that the kind of like really rusted on country crowd in Nashville and the country fans in America have had like a kind of lukewarm reception to him because he's still not
quite country enough for them. So like, you know, maybe it will be this thing that these new wave of artists that like introduce country to all these people, like, you know, us who don't really, you know, aren't part of the culture, they won't be really accepted by the there'll be a big divide between like the country people that loved the original stuff and then this new wave that has kind of redefined what it means.
And I feel like that again to go back to Oliver Anthony is hard to disentangle from, if not politics, then at least kind of like social discourse and kind of conversations around class and gender like I think a lot of people like that. Luke Combs and I'm not I'm not actually not having a dig at Utopia. I'm
talking more broadly. A lot of people like the Luke Combs kind of country because it speaks to them like it speaks to their experiences being a, you know, a man or a dad or whatever, like in a regional area driving your truck around or whatever, and good on them. They're allowed to have music that speaks. To them and maybe they see people like Zach Bryan as being too woke or something, I don't know. But I feel like
there is a layer of that too. It's never just about the quality of the song or the quality of the music. Music has never been like that. Like there is reason why certain kinds of genres appeal to certain kinds of people, and it may be that country is now going to be forced to have this conversation, which it's definitely been being had, but not in mainstream kind of ways.
Yeah, I think it becomes more problematic when it's like, you can't do this, someone else can't do this because I mean, if you look at hip hop and soul and R&;B, like they're not.
Back at.
School. Yeah.
I mean, white artists have used elements of that forever. And like, the biggest soul singer is probably Adele. And, you know, that general has become kind of, you know, mainstream across the board. But I think my concern with country is when it's, well, no, Lil Nas X can't count as country because part of that is because he's black and queer. You know what I mean?
Yeah.
Yeah. And don't forget, the Best Country album ever was released 23 years ago. Nelly's Country Grammar.
Yes, Correct.
He also not afraid of a country crossover. I think he and Blake Shelton have done a few songs together. Absolutely. Yeah. I'm all for that.
Yeah, well, I feel like the things to watch when it comes to this conversation. One is, you know, how much staying power will Richmond, north of Richmond, Oliver Anthony, have if you had to sort of like take a bet on it, do you think this is a song or an artist that we'll be talking about come Christmas time, or do you think this will be a bit of a fizzle in a few weeks?
Well, I think it's a damn shame what the world's coming.
To for people.
Like me and.
People like.
Me.
People are you Look, I do think, unfortunately for all of Anthony and his lovely dog, he. He may not be the next big thing in country music. I think just just the nature of the debate as as well will kind of like swallow him up and that on top of that I've actually I don't know if you guys have gone and listen to his other songs and like they're not as good as the Richmond north of Richmond.
No, he's trying to evoke the same sort of vibe, but just they don't hit in the same way. Yeah, you.
Can't pour your heart out like on ten tracks.
Yeah, I agree. I think he might be more of a viral hit than a long term artist. And I think partly that's because I am skeptical about his rise up the charts. And I do think those right wing influences, even if it wasn't an orchestrated attempt, I do think they're responsible for the attention and the curiosity listening as well. That's happening at the moment. So. Yeah. Sorry, sorry.
Oliver, can I just.
Can we just end with I like to ask you guys if you had to pick like one kind of like trope from the country music world that you might write your debut country music single on, like, what would it be? Would you go like Broken Heart? Would you go like a shot of whiskey? Like at the bar, open roads, like, where are you at?
I reckon I'm going. I'm going with the horse riding. I'm going.
Oh, my God. Are we such a horse girl?
I'm going the cowboy hat out on the like out on the land.
One of my favorite songs of all time and is one of my go to karaoke songs I haven't really had a chance to mention, even though we're talking about country music is John Denver's Take Me Home Country Roads like I love that song. I think it's like the official unofficial song of West Virginia. It features in like a lot of films that I really like, including Soderbergh's Logan, Lucky, where it is like what chain Tenemos daughter ends up
singing at the end of that beauty pageant. So I'm very partial to that kind of wide open road, like both evoking a sense of like the grandness and wonder of nature, but also that road that just takes you back home. What is home? You know, it's a damn fine woman. It's a damn fine shot of whiskey.
I reckon we've got similar ideas. I'll get my people to talk to your your people.
This is. This is the crossover we need.
What, sir?
I would definitely.
Mine would definitely be like. I would opt for the, like, broken heart drinking alone at the bar. Kind of that's where that's the best country for me, where it's like, the only thing I've got left is this shot of whiskey and.
And do you want it pared back? Like, do you just want the banjo and your voice and your emotion to.
I would.
Offer both. I would offer like the sad one as the lead single, and then the B-side would be like the fun drinking anthem.
I think you've got a you've got a career.
Really thought.
About this. Mel Thomas, thanks a bunch. Maybe to to sort of end things. Thomas, do you want to sing us out with a rendition of Last Night?
Lines. Now we'll add the liquor to the draft. Remember everything we said, but we said it all.
That was brilliant.
Thanks. It's like, Oh, God, I can't believe I did that again.
I'm so glad you did that.
This episode of The Drop was produced by Cheong. If you enjoyed listening to today's episode of The Drop, make sure to follow us in your favorite podcast app. Leave us a review or better yet, share it with a friend. I'm Osmond Fergie. See you next week.