All right, let's fucking go. As they say in the business. Hey there. I'm Osman Farooqui and this is The Drop, a culture show from the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age, where we dive into the latest in the world of pop culture and entertainment. I'm here with Thomas Mitchell and Mel Cambrai, of course, Tim, We did it. We've seen both Bobby and Oppenheimer and we've lived to tell the tale. How are we feeling?
Yeah, good. I can't remember a time when I wasn't in a cinema, but it's. It feels good to be out. The other side feels kind of like the end of succession all over again. Like I'm exhausted and sad it's over, but I'll probably miss it.
I think I want to go to another movie tonight. Like I want to keep this going. How fun going to a movie. I'm not going.
To another movie with you this week.
So Thomas and I, we actually realized that yesterday was our when we saw when we saw Oppenheimer. So good start. Good start, guys. Yesterday when we saw Oppenheimer was the first time we had actually seen a movie together. However. How do you find it?
Yeah, it was our first date.
Well, Thomas didn't save me a seat for Barbie, which was a bit disappointing. But how did you find me as a movie companion?
Uh.
Very chatty. And that.
Also Chatty Cathy.
And chatty. Chatty during the film or just before.
During the film. And also, by the time you drain that second, what then you were very chatty. And Mel's doing we'll get into this. Obviously, Mel's doing lots of explaining things to me as she does on the pod.
Also, I had a really funny sort of experience because a lot of the people who saw the Barbie premiere on Monday were also at the Oppenheimer premiere, but in like completely different outfits or just looking way more like less glam and like just a bit depressed. And it was just so funny seeing the exact same crew of like Melbourne cinema media types trudged from one thing to another. It was, it was quite an experience.
Yeah. The Barbie premiere in Sydney was so over the top. There was pink carpet, there were like Barbie boxes, there were cars to pose with. There was fairy floss everywhere. And then the Oppenheimer premiere, you just kind of the one bit of special effects was you walked through this tunnel, which I believe was meant to emulate being inside an atomic bomb.
The only thing that I thought was because they gave out arancini, which is kind of like.
A you guys got air and we didn't get any food. We didn't got none of that stuff.
It was probably the yummiest atomic bomb I've ever eaten.
No, but Thomas was like kind of off faffing around and because he was running quite late and we were last in the cinema, we were so far we were in the very back row. We could not have been further away from the screen.
Good for a Nolan film though, because you kind of want to take it all in.
Yeah, that's true.
Did people dress up at your screening? There were a lot of like Peaky Blinders kind of guys at the one in Melbourne?
No, nothing. It was so funny though, because I thought the same thing. Like obviously the Barbie premiere was is like sea of colour, mostly pink. And then Oppenheimer, it was just like blacks or browns or greys or so so grim.
How do you guys feel about the order We were forced to watch these movies and because of the way the premieres were structured. Thomas And you spoke to your guy, Tom Cruise. You know, he had, I think, what was largely seen as the sensible take, right? Like watched the big, heavy three hour epic film. Oppenheimer And then as a palate cleanser, watch. Bobby I think maybe we can talk about it more when we get into the films, but my instinct is actually doing Bobby first kind of worked
because Oppenheimer is such a big, heavy thematic film. You kind of want to sit with it for a minute before going into something so completely kind of saccharine.
Yeah, I think we did it the right way. I think seeing Bobby first is definitely better, and the only thing I would change is that we saw Oppenheimer like in the evening. I if I like my perfect day, like get up, have breakfast, go and get a coffee and then see Oppenheimer at like 11 and then like
with some smart friends, not you guys. And then go, go out for lunch after and like debrief or go out for dinner because it goes for fucking eight hours and then like debrief on it then because seeing it after work I felt a bit like.
Yeah, you finishes at 930 and you're like, I want to go to bed now. And I actually had a really bad night's sleep last night and I think it was because I just couldn't turn off the movie in my head.
I agree. Thomas There was like, it actually caused me a bit of anxiety because I knew you were quite tired and you'd had quite a big day. And so during the film I kept worrying that you were asleep next to me. Like I was doing that thing where I was checking, Are you still with us?
So watch the head nod. I was there. I was there for all three hours and nine minutes. But I actually.
Think it's really interesting to have because we wouldn't usually talk about Greta Gerwig and Christopher Nolan film other than obviously they've both come out in the same day and the two biggest films of the year. But I think it's really interesting to think about them together. And I keep thinking about how where Nolan is weak, Greta Gerwig was strong and vice versa and like holding them together. I think on the surface they seem really different, but
then they do share some. Similarities as well, that interest in kind of how stories are told and made? Well, let me.
Tell you, one of them is a great exploration of gender dynamics in the 1950s, and it's not Barbie.
Okay. Firstly, I think we should just get into it and start with the better film. Let's talk.
Barbie. Okay. Yeah, let's do let's actually talk. So what we're going to do is we're going to talk about both Barbie and Oppenheimer. Obviously, we're going to have pretty spoiler free conversations for both. So if you haven't yet seen the movies, you can still listen and get our review and outtakes, but we will have a little spoiler section for each that we will signpost. So you've still got time to watch the movies, not have anything ruined.
Let's start with Barbie. Initial Thoughts the most hyped film in years. How did you guys find it?
I loved it. I had a great time. I thought it was funny. It was pretty. It was clever. I do think it lived up to the hype in many ways, but in some ways I also think that was its downfall because I think that Gerwig was trying to cater to so many people in this film that it did become a bit bland and it did become a bit kind of I didn't have quite the spark that I thought it would have, and it did become a bit
overly commercial. I thought, like when they were advertising this film, they were saying, it's for people who love Barbie and it's for people who don't love Barbie. And maybe by trying to please everyone, it fell a bit short for me, which I'm sure we'll get into later on. But no, I had a really great time and I think it was I would recommend everyone go and say it.
Yeah, me too. I thought it was really funny, much funnier than I thought it was going to be. And like I had like maybe 5 or 6 solid lol moments. And I guess like Greta Gerwig, Noah Baumbach together, like they're very talented writing team, but I didn't expect it to be that funny or I actually thought they were quite brave in the way they took on Mattel. I kind of was impressed that Mattel let a bit of stuff go, but then I do feel like the last half hour it lost its way and the messaging got
very mixed up. And yes, similar to Gmail, I think there was a bit of trying to please everyone and trying to tick every box and not be accused of not doing something or getting it like it was just there was just a lot going on and you could feel it rammed in at the end. And also, it's kind of weird when you watch a movie and then you come and do something like this and your experience with it changes like as time goes on. But my very initial thoughts, when the credits rolled, I was like, Fuck,
that was amazing. Like, that was like the first five people I spoke to about the movie. I was like, amazing, amazing. So funny, so great. And then the more I sat with it, I was like, Oh, but then this, which I guess is the nature of, you know, thinking about things.
That's really interesting because I had exactly the same experience sitting there in the movies and the lights went on. I was like, Wow, Like, incredible stuff. What a time to be alive, really. And then the further away I got from the cinema, the more kind of cynical I got. And then the day after, I, I ended up with what is my current take, which is that I think for what this movie is trying to do, which is basically take a toy that has been around for so long and make a story out of it that is
fun and compelling and kind of for all ages. But, you know, with a couple of gags for the adults and some fun sequences for younger people, it's as good as it could be. Like, I just don't think there's a version of the Barbie film that is better than this one. Yeah. Given all the constraints and boundaries and challenges around grappling with big corporate IP and doing it in the kind of modern Hollywood ecosystem, like I think
it's fun. I think everyone should see it. I actually do think people should see this movie because I don't think it's like some criticisms I've got of it that I'll get into are not enough to turn you off the movie. Like at the end of the day, it's an hour and 54 minutes. The performances are great. Like you said, Thomas is really funny. Ryan Gosling in a Revelation because we know he's a great actor, but his role in this film and the extent to which he's a big part of it, I think they've done a
good job of keeping that a bit under wraps. He wasn't really front and center in a lot of the marketing, but he's really, really good in it. A lot of the cast are great in it. The production design is amazing and the soundtrack, which had sort of been dripped out over the last couple of weeks, really plays a big role in the movie as well, which I really, really, really enjoyed.
Lately I've been moving closer.
Before maybe we get to some of the things that didn't quite work. What else did work for you guys in this film?
Yeah, I think I was surprised by Gosling as well, and I thought he was very. He was very funny. This is my take on the film. No, but he was like, really, really funny. He's there was some conjecture about him being cast as Ken when he first announced because they were like people like, Oh, he's too old and stuff. But he was like the perfect Ken doll. And like I thought also thought generally the movie was
more self-aware than I expected. And it kind of like there were lots of kind of like winks to the audience about how ridiculous this all is or when when there was a moment we were supposed to think, you know, it was a bit outrageous. The movie made us but brought us in and was like, Yeah, we know. And I also thought similar. I thought like, I love a big set piece in a film. And the set pieces in this were amazing. Like, you know, there's a big
Ken sequence at the end that was incredible. The songs were great. Like it was, yeah, it kind of had that full like movie experience where it was just like rich with everything.
Yeah, I loved Bobby Land. I just wanted to stay in Bobby Land. I wanted to understand how that matriarchy worked. I thought, like the look of that, the rules of that world was so interesting. They were by far my favorite part. I liked the cameo Barbies, like loved Issa Rae. I thought she was great. That was the kind of where I thought the movie was at its best when
it was in Barbie's dream house and explaining that world. Um, I also really, I thought there were quite a few fun little and I wonder if you guys I don't know if you played with Barbies growing up. There were quite a few fun little throwbacks to actual Barbie dolls like Tanner. I don't know if you know Barbie's dog, which like was just this toy that I think.
It's safe to assume. Mal, we don't know much about these dolls.
I was more of a Susan stretch. I mean.
I didn't want to. She was. Their name was Suzy. No. No one.
Bought her that massive discontinued Susan.
When she was in trouble. Yeah, there were heaps of, like, old Midge who was like, Barbies. Oh, the pregnant one. Yeah. So I thought there were quite a few fun little throwbacks to Barbies for fans of Barbies. But yeah, I also think there were a lot of weak points and it was kind of to me there were like these really great moments, like the Ken scene that you guys have mentioned or kind of the initial establishment of Barbie
Barbie's dream world. But then there was some pretty poor moments as well.
Yeah, I think in terms of what didn't quite land, I'm really interested to have this conversation with you guys because to me there's a couple of different layers to it. There is some specific plot point and some character stuff, but then I think there is a big top order, almost kind of political issue that is present throughout the film that just didn't quite work for me. But maybe we can talk about some of the more middle of
the road issues here. The film's plot, if people haven't kind of like kept up without giving too much away, Barbie lives in this amazing dreamland. She's having a great time. Then things start to go a bit wrong for her. This is all kind of in the trailers.
It's breaks. Some things have been happening that might be related When.
My world shakes.
Cold shower.
Falling off my roof and my heels are on the ground.
Flat feet.
Her famously arched feet go flat. She starts to have these kind of grim, depressing thoughts and she finds out that she has to go into the real world, our world, to figure out what's going on when she goes there. The plot kind of revolves around this character played by America Ferrera and her daughter, who link up with Bobby to try and fix things. I don't dislike that as
a plot device. I think that's kind of interesting. But I just didn't think those two characters, Ferrera and her daughter, were at all like developed or fleshed out, and I kind of didn't like much that happened in the real world. The dream world stuff is interesting. That's where all the interesting characters are and that's where the interesting ideas are. Let's just get back to that. And I couldn't quite like even the real world. It wasn't really the real world.
Like Will Ferrell is the CEO of Mattel, but everything is still kind of heightened and a bit wacky. And it's like they weren't sure if they really wanted to display a real version of our lives or another kind of fake version. And I've just got a little bit too messy for me. How did you guys feel about that sort of tension?
Yeah, I completely agree with you, and I think that was part of the challenge that Greta Gerwig probably faced, was that Barbie is a toy that doesn't have a back story. Like she doesn't come with a back story that Greta Gerwig can can use. So yeah, so she had to make a narrative and I just hated the plot of this. It annoyed me. And like, I know they you need a plot. I'm very old fashioned. I know you need a plot, but it just felt so silly and childish to me. And it was the point
of the plot like this. Some fissure in the world that they can get through and then they have to get back. I just didn't want any of that. And it made it feel like a childish film to me. Whereas I think and that really annoyed me because I thought it was an adult film. But then there were elements of it to me that felt like it was for a child, and the narrative was one that, yeah, you'd show your eight year old daughter great for them. But yeah, I didn't want the real world idea. I
didn't like it. And I think that's also partly why I liked the, the Barbie Land stuff so much was because it was away from that part of it.
Yeah, I agree as well that like, it did feel like two different movies. When I went to the Rent Into the Real World, it became this kind of like weird 90s like high jinks movie or something. And you've got like Barbie running around always being like the Benny Hill music or something. And like, it was just a bit yeah, that tonally felt very different. And Barbie was way more like Greta, and that was like, you know,
the cool kind of like arthouse take on Barbie. And then it just became this weird, like really very broad strokes film. So that didn't really work for me. And I and I felt similar, like America Ferrera, a great actress. We all know that. And like everyone else in Barbie, even these like Kens and Barbies that we meet very briefly felt like fully realized. Whereas America Ferrera and her daughter were getting these kind of like, really like you
get these like, lame flashbacks to them. And it just all felt like very, I don't know, cumbersome or something. So that I found a little bit yeah, a little bit disappointing. And then I guess we'll probably get into this. But like it became towards the end, like just the mixed messaging and what the film was trying to say. It was like just deluge of information and yeah, that the last half hour really lost me.
Well, I want to ask you guys specifically that question around what the film is trying to say, because I think this is one of the most fascinating things about this movie is how was it going to balance essentially being a giant marketing campaign for Mattel with this vision that we thought and hope that Greta Gerwig and Margot Robbie to pretty interesting women in film two, probably of the most interesting women in film working right now with
a lot of experience telling specific stories about women when it comes to Greta Gerwig, mother and daughter relationships particularly. And you know, Margot, Robbie's been involved in producing a bunch of very capital F feminist films like Promising Young Women, how these two ideas were going to merge. I think the kind of the Greta Gerwig, you know, mummy issues thing that she does with things like Lady Bird and
Frances Ha is sort of quite present. There's a lot of conversation about mothers and daughters at all sorts of different levels. We talked about how we don't think that really landed for us with the America Ferrera and her daughter storyline. In terms of the movie's overall take on gender politics and on feminism and on how the patriarchy operates. My personal take on it, I'm going to be very like measured about how I say this because I'm conscious
of being the guy. Yeah, I just didn't like the feminism in the movie.
But yeah, we've already got that guy, the Pod.
But I don't think it worked in the movie. And I don't mean that like it's because the movie addressed feminism is obviously not my point. I just found it to be like a little bit either ham fisted at points or too eager and quick to just like tick off everything. It's like we've got we've got a black Barbie and a Supreme Court is diverse and we've got a trans Barbie, but we're not really going to delve into how those intersections actually relate in this kind of
world at all. And we're going to show you that there's a corporate boardroom full of men, and that's bad. And it's like, okay. Is this saying anything new about the what is it taking this idea of Barbie and telling us something we don't know? Or is it too, I guess, conscious of the criticism around Barbie that it is defensive before it's able to actually say what it wants to say and thereby kind of trapped by the desire to just sort of like, you know, avoid being
criticized a critic for this movie. And when Crawford put it in way better words than I could when I watched this movie, she just she said, I think really articulately that the movie's too keen to just, like, defend itself from any criticisms. So it doesn't actually say anything that radical would take too big a swing. I really connected with her description of the movie in that way, but I'm really interested to know what you guys have to say about the kind of politics and feminism of the film.
Yeah. I mean, I would love to see the director's cut of this film because I reckon Mattel probably put Greta Gerwig in her box back in her Barbie box a bit. Right. Phrasing. To me, it was very confusing and it felt like every time Greta made a punch, she then had to pull it back and I wasn't really sure where we ended up because there were then these kind of, you know, I wasn't really sure what we ended up and what to take away from it.
And I think that maybe that was kind of flagged or we could have seen that coming because of all the discussion about is it a feminist film or is it not? And the Mattel Mattel executives saying it's a humanist film and Greta and Margot saying it's a feminist film. And yeah, at the end, I didn't really know what it was, but it definitely didn't have you. Speaking of promising young woman, that was like, you know, that really made it that said something. And I don't think this
film really knew what it wanted to say. And it kind of ended up a watered down, uplifting film without any kind of real hit.
Yeah, if a film is inherently feminist because it has lots of women in it and says the word feminism a lot, I feel like that's a pretty low bar and I feel like it just sort of fell over that low bar without having to confront too many like, powerful people with ideas about how things actually work. But. Thomas You know, whenever I'm thinking about feminism, I think about you. What what did you make of this question?
And you already know your favorite wave of feminism? Yeah.
Third, famously the dopest wave. Yeah, like I do feel similar essentially. Like I felt like they were really quick to get on the front foot with everything that you could have possibly accuse them of not addressing. And as soon as I kind of felt that happening, I was like, okay, I suspect you know that what you said is right. Male Like they've basically been so conscious that people are expecting things from this film and expecting things from the
people connected to this film. But then like we already heard, you know, like pre premiere rumors that Mattel had kind of really been actively involved in the direction and tone of the film. And all of that, I think, became quite obvious as the film played out. Like, you know, when there's that and obviously no spoilers, but there's a scene when we first kind of see Barbie and America Ferrera's daughter meet at school and it's kind of meant
to be this this big moment. And they have an ideological argument, you know, where Barbie thinks she's going to be, you know, like she thinks she's saved the real world and she thinks she's going to be greeted with hugs and open arms and stuff. And the daughter kind of lays out, you know, this speech, which feels a bit like feminism 101. And then that kind of happens again and again in the film. But then like later on, we get this like reversal when Ryan Gosling's can, you know,
kind of has his big moment. And that's when I was like, Oh, this is the humanist thing they're talking about where we're trying to are we being forced now to appreciate both sides? And is this kind of the actual message of the film that if we try and always talk over one another and eliminate one another and, you know, we end up in this kind of like eye for an eye thing, and then but then it flips way back in the last half hour to become
this like staunchly there's these huge speeches made by America Ferrera. So, yeah, it just it felt like it was just like someone had written themselves into a corner and we were constantly going, like, in a loop.
Yeah. And then there was so much of those kind of big speeches that felt like they were that were trying to make such an obvious point. And like, at times I was like, Oh, this is maybe what I would put on to, you know, this is gender and culture studies 101 like, let's explain the patriarchy in the most obvious clear way. And I felt like those speeches and those moments where they really rammed down your throat, this kind of moralism behind it were very annoying. Yeah.
And I guess I don't I hope that's not Greta. Like, I would like to think that her analysis of the modern state of gender is more complicated than men are in charge of many things and that is bad. But then on the other hand, I guess I was thinking there's a lot of conversations in this movie about like the Supreme Court comes up like a lot of times.
And I was thinking about the context in which this film is being made in America, where the Supreme Court has very recently, like outlawed abortion like that is on one hand, it's maybe it's a bit cringe to people like us who went to university and like studied gender theory to to see this being presented. But maybe like a mass appeal movie that will be watched by many people telling them that, hey, the world is kind of bad. A lot of men are deciding how women's lives are
a government controlled. When we live in a world where abortion is now illegal, is there maybe like maybe that's needed, even if it's not exactly the nuance and complexity we want or we think Greta and Margo can deliver probably is, in net terms, still helpful? Maybe. Maybe I'm clutching at straws here.
No, I completely agree with you. Even like when there was a scene when Margot's Barbie goes into the real world and she encounters men at a construction. Sign she's in when she's rollerblading and she kind of says something like, Oh, what is this strange anxiety I'm feeling? I feel a sense of fear that I can't really define, which I think is a very real feeling that women have in.
Whereas in the world. Right. This is amazing.
And like, yeah, she spells it out. So obviously. But to many people, many people still don't understand how that men and women navigate the world differently. And so I do think you're right, even if to us it's kind of obvious to people who maybe haven't thought about these concepts before. This is a really good way of pop culture, introducing that to someone.
Yeah. And I think like, you know, obviously we're all in agreement that the issues being like kind of discussed are great. But I guess my fear is that like if you think about people who, you know, maybe at that stage where they're like all of these conversations just trigger them. The amount of times you hear the words like feminism and patriarchy, they'll just like they won't even it'll just switch them off before they even get a chance to think about what the movie is trying to say.
And I guess that is the concern I have is that if it had been slightly more subtle, if it had been more nuanced, then you might be able to get through to these people. Whereas I can imagine some people that I know who are like in that, oh, like, oh, you know, it's all become too woke, blah blah blah. They'll just like hear this or see like ten minutes this and be like, Oh no, this is just another like, you know, yeah, there.
Is going to be, there's going to be such discourse about this movie. It's already been a cultural issue, like Piers Morgan and others in the UK have already been like slamming this movie for the erasure of men, blah, blah, blah. Like there will be a lot of talk about how this is like corporate woke culture gone too far. Exactly. And again, maybe in that context, its existence is like a bit of a screw you to the kind of
growing emboldened far right. I want to get into spoiler territory for a second because there's a couple of other ideas about the politics of it that I think we need to discuss. You guys happy to to get into that.
Space, boil.
Away? I love to spoil things.
So one of the most radical ideas I think that existed in this movie is this idea of like death and the killing of Bobby and that sort of like present from the very start. And then the very end, like the end of the movie, whether Mattel knew what they were signing up for or whether they even know what this movie ended on, I'm not totally sure because it's quite intense where the entire Barbie world ameliorates what
the concept of Barbie is. Barbie Leaves the Dreamland has a very explicit conversation about that decision leading to her death. And she does it. And I think I found that quite satisfying in a way that, like, if Greta Gerwig was able to basically shoehorn the death of Barbie, the death of the concept of Barbie, even the version of Barbie that exists now in 2023, that is woke and diverse and whatever, I found that to be a pretty exciting idea. How did you guys feel about the very end of the film?
I really liked it. I feel like that to me was like a big. Like, I can just imagine the conversation between or like email thread between Greta Gerwig and the CEOs at Mattel being like, okay, oh, like budge on this, this and this, but I'm keeping the ending. And maybe like I would bet my life that's how it went down and maybe, you know, she was smart to do that and maybe Mattel were too because like what's Mattel? Give a fuck if Barbie dies at the end. Like Barbies.
Everyone still loves Bobby. There's still a million brand.
That no one's going to be like, Oh, but the character, like Margot Robbie, like walked off into the know, like they don't care. Like Barbie is back as like a brand we're talking about. Or people are going to be buying Barbies. But I thought it was a really smart ending. Like once we got to the actual ending of the film, I was like, Yeah, I really enjoy this.
Yeah. And I don't want to. I think the idea that Mattel is brave or is insane to me, like people are saying like, Oh, that executives scene can't believe Mattel. Let us take potshots at them. Like that is.
Just sad that you offer. Is that my voice?
That's how in my head, how it sounds. I just think it is insane. Even the ending just feeds into a narrative. Mattel is trying to sell, which is Barbie for a new generation. They have to kill off a particular version of Barbie, which is the version that Barbie is perfect and wonderful and physically aspirational. They have to kill off that person to stay relevant. So to me, this ending is exactly what Mattel wants. They want to reposition Barbie as something that all of us can get behind.
And I think they did that so well. Like the idea that Barbie is an inspiration, like psychologically and emotionally rather than physically is just genius, I think, on their behalf.
Yeah, it's a it's a really good point. And I think there's another bit to the ending that that speaks to it. Like we have Mattel in the movie, largely represented by Will Ferrell and these kind of like, you know, nameless suits, corporate goons, then culprit goons. But then at the very end, we meet this character, Ruth, who's based on the woman who originally designed Barbie. And there's some
gags about her. I think she was accused of like tax evasion or whatever, but she ends up becoming like the nice human face of this whole big kind of corporate world. And it's like, you might think Mattel is an evil corporation, but I'm just a nice lady who wanted to, like, have a toy to play with her daughter. And I'm going to help you realize how great Bobby really is. And I thought that was a pretty fucking cynical thing to have at the end of this movie
where it's like, it's actually not these corporate guys. Bobby's really just about a nice woman who wanted to have a good relationship with her daughter. And that's the final thought. The very final thought we're going to leave you on is very glowing, positive, stripping away, pretending like this isn't this giant capitalist corporate beast, but just a humble, you know, like that Simpsons episode where Marge meets the woman who invents the fake Barbie. I'm just a lady trying to
create a doll. I didn't love that bit of it.
Yeah, completely agree.
I liked the cookies and tea vibe with Grandma and she's sitting in the.
Well, actually one of Thomas's favorite part of the film he was telling me.
Was the fun.
Fact. This is the fun. Yes, I've got a fun fact.
You may know.
This. I mean, here we go. Okay.
Again, to be fair, I told you this fun fact.
You did, actually.
Okay, go ahead. Anyway, you you take the fun fact.
Ruth Handler created the Barbie. That's not the fact. People know that already. It was based on her daughter, Barbara. Hence Barbie, which we know. And Barb, the real Barbara Handler, is actually in the film. She what? She is the nice old lady that smiles at Margot at the bus stop.
Oh, at the bus stop? Yes.
That is Barbara.
Handler. I know.
I'm sure that is a great fact. Thank you. Thank you, Mel. Via Thomas.
Thank you. This is the.
Patriarchy in action.
Yeah. Huge. Kennedy over here. Yeah. Can I just say one other thing I would like to get your opinion on is part of my concern, even though I love Greta Gerwig, but going into this film, I was like, because Margot Robbie is so beautiful and because Ryan Gosling is so beautiful, I was worried about that. The film would essentially become a lot of eye candy, like a lot of beautiful people doing beautiful things. But I actually think they did a really good job at not making
the two sexy. And like part of that was because they didn't actually have a love story together or not a traditional kind of romance. But I was pretty impressed by that, that like, they really did position it to Barbie's kind of psychological and intellectual output rather than her her sexuality and like her physicality, like they kind of made them. They did feel a bit plastic.
Yeah, I think there was.
Some kind of effect when they're in Barbie land where they look like still like a lot like dolls.
Yeah. There was no.
Like. Yeah there's no sexual like.
Yeah. And I think that's what the performances were really incredible. It's almost like they, they did such a great job of looking plastic and rigid, but this kind of pain behind the eyes, that was like the one place like Ken who was so fit. Ryan Gosling was so yoked in this film. And, you know, he's very attractive guy with great hair like a certain other guy. His podcast but his despite looking so buff, right. And like stereotypically hot, he looked pretty upset and angry and like sad a
lot of the time. Like he was trapped in this sort of plastic thing. I think that is one of the most interesting things is how they conveyed exactly what you said, Mel. Like a complete lack of sexiness and and like even like looking at them, you didn't feel, wow, you felt a bit gross in a way, because they clearly were really uncomfortable in those bodies.
Yeah, they were trapped in there. Their perfection to to a large extent.
Yeah, for sure. And like, it is funny because like, you're watching Gosling and he's like, so shredded 0% body fat, like so tan. But yeah, it wasn't like aspirational, any of it. It was just, yeah, that I thought really worked. And it made them kind of like took that element out and you could kind of like really believe that there were these life sized dolls.
Okay, Anything else you guys want to say about Barbie before we do a hard pivot to Oppenheimer?
I would just like to say and again, we're in spoiler territory, but I just thought the addition of Matchbox 20 push was probably their moment of the film. Yeah, very, very funny. And again, the set pieces were great. But that song choice, the lyrics of that song and the way they kind of like executed that sequence was just chef's kiss.
Have you ever done that on a date with someone? Have you played an acoustic guitar?
Let it be known that I haven't because I can't play guitar, but if I could like a 100%.
Yeah.
I'm 100% with you. I'd be the most I'd be even more insufferable if I could play acoustic guitar. Wonderwall push it. It all be.
Happening So good.
Okay. On to Oppenheimer. I'm not sure. We've talked about Chris Nolan at all on this podcast before. Are you guys fans of his previous films?
Yeah, I love Christopher Nolan, Big Inception, Guy Love, Tenet, Love Dark Knight, one of my all time favorite films. So, yes, I am. I'm Nolan with my homies.
Yeah, I'm hit and miss with Nolan. Some films I really love. Love the Batman films. Some films annoy me a bit more like Tennant. I probably like when he's a bit less into the kind of supernatural time warping memory stuff and more in kind of. I thought Dunkirk was really good. I like prestige. Prestige?
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, I find I don't love all his works, but some really resonate with me.
Yeah, I a pretty big fan of Nolan. I like Memento with Guy Pearce is awesome. The Prestige is great. I love all the Batman films, but I really didn't like Tenet and so I was a bit like nervous about this film. And there was so like, like he does these things. Nolan where he announces like the title of a film and gives you a logline. And it's like, but it's like a fucked up version of this, right?
So the movie comes out, the movie is announced. Oppenheimer And it's an exploration of the guy who built the atom bomb and people like, Well, this is clearly going to be some crazy sci fi thing about how the nuclear bomb ends up completely, you know, changing the history of humanity and probably creates a wormhole. And we're going to end up with this wacky sci fi film. I don't really think it's spoilery to say that. Like, that's
kind of not really what happens. This is a pretty straightforward, like drama with a lot of talking and a lot of people in rooms talking about politics, about communism, about the Spanish Civil War, about unionism in academia and and grappling with the complexity of a very significant military achievement that led to the death of a quarter of a million people. And what that means for the individuals involved, what that means for America at large, what it means
for the future of of humanity. I got to say, I was pretty blown away by this film. Like I Thomas is smiling at it.
Because, like, we all saw the film yesterday and then like almost the minute it finished at like fucking midnight or whatever it was, I knew it was coming straight away. I was like, Well, my life has changed forever. This is the single greatest cinematic moment.
I was blown.
I was very, very, very moved by this movie. I mean, Matt Damon, who stars in it, said in an interview, I think before the strike stuff all happened, he said to his wife, I'm never going to act again unless Christopher Nolan asks me to. Like, I kind of think if I'm a director and I'm watching this movie, I just pack up and go home. I mean, I'm even in journalism. I don't even think anything I do could
ever compare it to anything like this. I feel very distressed about my life right now because I just watched one of the most incredible pieces of art I've ever seen.
I love that you take Christopher Nolan's genius is like a reflection on your own ineptitude.
Like, you know, like sees him as a piece. Yeah. You know, like, I'm so.
Glad this exists in the world.
I thought we're operating on the same kind of a.
Level, right? We're sort of, you know, he's Einstein to my kind of Heisenberg. And, you.
Know.
Okay, Tell us what gave you the feels?
Well, I think it was just so not what I expected. And not only was it not what I expected in terms of not being so dense when it comes to science and kind of not really leaning into the kind of sci fi elements that Nolan's known for, but being
very human, very grounded. Very character driven. It also has like my 3 or 4 favorite things I want in a film, which is like conversation about the Communist Red Scare in the 50s at lots of scenes where they try to unionize a workplace which we've been talking a lot about lately, like amazing timing for this movie. And then like allusions to the American Deep State and how the FBI was maybe involved in a lot of character
assassinations for individuals. It's got an amazing history story about a period of America that I think was really significant and the legacy of that in the world that we live in right now. I'm like, that's not what I expected from this film or really from Nolan. And I think this is a thing that we will all agree. And even if you don't agree with how intensely I handled this movie, the performances around the board were pretty fucking phenomenal.
I thought a great Cillian Murphy was just sensational and essentially carried the entire film. There were some great cameos and there were great Matt Damon, you mentioned Florence Pugh, Emily Blunt, all fantastic, but he really did carry it and was sensational in it. And I did find it really grew on me. I found the last hour and a half of this film essentially from when they did the trial of the atomic bomb was really gripping. I thought it was a bit slow to start. It took
me a while. It took a while to get there to build up that tension. But where it ends, I see kind of how they needed to do that, to get to the kind of emotional resonance of it, and then really turned into something beyond a biopic in that last half of the film.
Yeah, I found I was similar to you, like the first kind of like quarter of the film or half of the film, whatever it was, when it was just like in different universities, people talking at each other a lot. Okay, I'm into it, but I'm struggling. And then as soon as they did the Trinity trial, the Trinity bomb tests and everything from there, it really hooked me. I mean, the performances were amazing. I'll be shocked if Killian Murphy doesn't get the Oscar for this.
I think this will get like a dozen Oscar nominations in a stack of wins. Yeah. I mean.
It's such Oscar bait historical film. Big name director goes for ten hours and, like, the performances are amazing. Yeah. And so I thought, like, it was very it was a different type of Nolan film. I still like I texted you last night and said, like, still not Dark Knight levels for me, but I love I love the way as well. Like I was curious about how like sciency it was going to be because like you don't want to try and, you know, explain quantum physics to people, especially people.
Sure you do already. Yeah.
But you know did some really like there's some really beautifully like kind of done cinematic sequences where they do like, you know, they've got like the atoms flying around and stuff.
And just like.
That, I mean, I thought those little flashes of atoms were a bit silly. I didn't think they were. I really.
Liked it. Yeah, yeah, I think I did think.
There are so and again, this could be just like purely a result of seeing it, like after a long day at work and in the evening. But there are a lot of characters and like maybe 3 or 4 timelines happening. And then some of them are like ones in black and white and you can kind of figure out, but like you really have to be like engaged in
this film. And it takes about the first half of the film to like for it to all click into place and then you don't have to be like reminding yourself as to which story you're in.
Yeah, that's interesting. It is told in a really unconventional way. Like there is multiple different timelines and they kind of all collapse in on each other towards it sort of reminded me a bit of Dunkirk in that way where that's got three storylines. I think one's like an hour, one's a day and one's a week, but they all meet up kind of at the end. It's not a sci fi thing. That's just the narrative device for this film.
This one sort of starts at the beginning and one timeline starts at the end and they kind of work backwards almost in a way. And I kind of agree with you guys. You know, the start of it was a little bit slower. There's all these characters, but I thought almost everything pays off, like these kinds of interactions that they have, the little stories, the characters that are introduced, they all kind of come back at the end for like some kind of purpose. And for a movie it
is long. I didn't find that that slow or dry, but for a movie that has that many characters, it did a pretty good job of establishing motivations for almost all of them. Like they were all adding something. There wasn't just someone there. My only my only real criticism is I loved Florence Pugh and Emily Blunt, and I wish that there was like more of them. Nolan doesn't seem to like love giving women huge roles in his movies.
It was very funny seeing that we said it in like last night in the cinema, seeing Barbie like, which is like a stacked female cast. And then coming into Oppenheimer was just like so like male heavy.
Also, I think like in some ways, you know how they were joking in Barbie about people watching men showing women The Godfather. I could also see them substituting that with a Christopher Nolan film like Courtney.
Because yeah, and I was.
Actually thinking about this.
I'm just going to pause prestige like ten times to explain exactly what's going on here.
Baby. Yeah, Yeah.
I was kind of wondering, like, if what we're seeing with these two films is old Hollywood and New Hollywood up against each other, like Greta Gerwig style of filmmaking, I think really touches on the cynicism and this tendency. Towards irony of our generation, and it is essentially the narrative eating itself. Whereas Christopher Nolan is way more old school.
So character.
Based. You still believes in story, still believes in a character arc. And I think it's really interesting looking at those two existing in the same time because they do. I don't know. Do you do you.
Think that's a really.
Good point? I think even the response to them, obviously there's been so much made of how we've found ourselves in this, like Barbie Heimer, you know, kind of like race. And I think a lot of that probably comes down to, to like different sets of tastes, like being smashed together in the same week and, and lots of people like probably the three of us have appreciate both but there are definitely some Nolan heads like Osbourne and his cronies out there.
I'm not even like a massive Nolan head. Like I like it, but I wasn't. That's what that's what I find so interesting. I wasn't into this being like, whatever it is, I will love. I was just, for the record, happily surprised.
Okay.
You said greatest film of all time.
Yeah. Okay. Happily surprised to watch the greatest film of all time.
No, no, no.
That was that was a very knee jerk reaction, I think, in the cold light of day, you know? Yeah, like I got some minor quibbles with it, but I think it was pretty, pretty great. I think to this point about Bobby Vee Oppenheimer, like, I love that we kind of live in an era for both. I think, like you said, almost, we do love like fun kind of dumb, silly light stuff. But how great to also have a movie that is an original story. Like it's adapted from a book, but it's the first time we've seen a
story like this on screen. It's told in a pretty unique way. And I think obviously Nolan, when he was planning and writing this movie, didn't expect it to land in the middle of a writer's strike and a actor's strike. But I do think the politics and themes of this film will really resonate for a lot of people, given the conversations in Hollywood right now.
Yeah, I do as well. And I actually think Bobby and Oppenheimer, the characters both have similar missions, really. They're both kind of reclaiming their narrative and we're kind of going back to the past and we're reframing these figures. So I guess Nolan and Gerwig, I think, do have a similar project in that sense. They're about kind of revisioning like people from the past.
And this is maybe my hottest take on it. But whilst having some issues, as we discussed with the feminism of the Barbie film. I thought this film like it didn't shy away from the actual reality and the shit conditions that women in the 50s had to live in
and deal with in America. Like, I think the movie probably could have done a bit more with the amazing women actors that it had, but I thought there was like quite a lot of conversation there about how women, even if they were smart, even if they were trained scientists, just like could not succeed in this world and how they were written off and destroyed by both individual men and the structures that they operated in. Again, a bit
of a surprise. Maybe that's why I enjoyed it, because it was not something I expected from Nolan, but was glad to be in there when I think other directors could have just said, Well, 90% of the Manhattan Project was guys, so let's just pretend women don't exist.
I mean, I still think he largely pretended women didn't exist because I think there were only like three women the Florence Pugh, Emily Blunt, and then there was one of the scientists was was a woman. So I still think that they did kind of largely ignore women.
Yeah. To be honest, I haven't thought this through enough to really go toe to toe with you on how this is an incredible, incredibly feminist movie.
I.
I also really liked, though, like we spoke kind of about the performances and obviously the whole thing hinged on Cillian Murphy, but I thought Rami Malek was really good. He's so good in everything he does. And also I loved Einstein like.
He.
Was so excited.
Me too. Me too. I mean, let's just before we get into this, let's just flag that. Let's have a bit of a spoilery chat about some of this stuff. But yeah, every time Einstein, I'm like, That's Einstein. There he is just chatting away.
Thomas Like leaned over in the cinema and he's like, Is that Einstein just like it is?
That's the stuff again. I said to you, That's Einstein. And you were like, Glug glug, glug, glug glug.
He was so excited. But no, I.
Thought that was a really that was like a really cool addition. And I liked seeing like that was, you know, I guess I didn't know much about their relationship, but like, you know, this kind of intellectual handing over and then he comes back in at the end and yeah, I thought the performances were really good. And yeah, then Rami Malek has a kind of big moment towards the end of the film and, you know, we know he's a great actor, but yeah, like just the casting was great
and even people with their little moments. Yeah.
Gary Oldman, another Oscar winner, just pops in for like one scene and.
Sorry, is Josh Hartnett. Is he coming back? Is this his return?
Well, this is the thing. Like, I mean, he gave one of the all time great performances in 40 days and 40 nights, but he was amazing in this. And like, who the fuck is giving Josh Hartnett work? Like Christopher Nolan puts him in one of the biggest films of the year and he like, crushes it.
We also haven't mentioned Robert Downey Jr at all, who is like the main antagonist who I also thought was like amazing.
Yeah, but he's always good. Like Josh Hartnett, they've kind of like shaved them on, put him in a suit. He's good to go. Like, very impressive. Can we.
Can we talk about the very end before we sort of wrap this conversation Because there's a weird so. Babylon Did you guys watch Babylon Yes, I was very much in the Babylon hive, right. I was one of the weirdos that thought this was an incredible movie. And I thought the way Babylon ended is kind of become one of the most influential ways to end a movie since it came out. It's this Spoilers for Babylon. The movie ends, and there's this montage of real world like cinema, just
as like this ode to movies. There's like Avatar and Titanic and Terminator and all these big budget films. It's just literally a montage of it. Since that movie came out, Bobby comes out that ends in like this weird montage that sort of breaks the fourth wall. In a weird way, this film also ends with a very intense, like, terrifying montage.
And this is the bit of the movie where, you know, everyone speculating about this story was like, Oh, I bet you when Nolan does an atomic bomb story, when they blow up the bomb like it destroys society, destroys the whole world, the universe falls apart. Practically. That isn't what happened in this movie. But the very end of this movie is killing Murphy, looking to camera and saying, Yeah, when we let off that bomb, we basically did destroy the world. And we get this montage of nuclear bombs
going off. And then the final shot is a CGI or a visual effects kind of thing, with the Earth's atmosphere being lit on fire. It's a pretty grim but pretty interesting that all of these films seem to be like just completely zooming out of the world that they're in to say something to us.
Yeah, I think they handled the reality of the bomb really well in this film. Like it was done really subtly and like there was the scene where they were kind of looking at footage of people who had been injured and killed in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and they didn't show the footage, but they just showed the reaction to the footage. And there were moments like that that I
thought they handled really deftly. Like it could have been easy to, you know, show the big bomb in the film or, you know, show some of the disasters more literally. But I thought the quietness of that meant it was in the background because we all do know the horror of those bombs and we've all seen the the footage. So I thought it was nice that they didn't ram that down your throat during the film. Yeah.
Do you think the film was a. Equivocal on this question of whether this was a bad thing to do, like I thought. So I thought the film did a good job of laying out all the arguments that everyone gave for this. But then pretty firmly, particularly with the end when Oppenheimer is like, No, no, no, Einstein, we fucked up. Like we totally fucked up. But I wonder whether that's me projecting some of my own politics on it. What do you guys think about the message of the film?
Yeah, I saw it the same as you, that it was saying it was a bad thing. And what the film was trying to do was show how individuals can be caught up in projects, historical projects that are so much bigger than themselves. And there was that great moment where they took the bombs away from Oppenheimer, and all of a sudden he was no longer part of it. And obviously that was his moral distress that something he
had helped create was now out of his hands. And what kind of role and responsibility does he have to take for the actions that followed? So I think that was its interest. But I think, yeah, overall, it was definitely not a celebration of of what happened.
No.
And you kind of do get that interrogation of like, you know, when people when people expect you to do things like the weight of expectation that falls on Oppenheimer because he's, you know, brilliant genius who has the capability to build something, you know, that will be used for like awful purposes. And you kind of watch how much that destroys him. But I loved there's a scene towards the end when he has an audience with President Truman and my favorite president after Reagan.
And.
And and and this is I didn't because this is another thing I'll add about this movie. I like Googled the fuck out of Oppenheimer when I got home. Yeah. But like, you know, that was a real meeting. And Truman really did get annoyed at him when he said, I have blood on my hands. And like, I love that. Truman says to him, like, no one cares about who built it, like they care about who dropped it. And that was me. And he's almost saying because he wants to. Yeah,
he wants to go out. But yeah, like it's I definitely don't think there's any, you know, any conjecture about where you're supposed to think the morality lies. And I think Nolan definitely makes that point and the way it ends with Oppenheimer's position on it. But yeah, I thought it was, it was great. Like it was a great film, both great films, Really.
Yeah. What I'm hearing from this conversation is Oppenheimer probably needed some more women, and Bobby could have done with more conversations about the international brigades during the Spanish Civil War.
There was no union, Bobby, was there?
No.
Oh.
We also just want to give a shout out. We had the film introduced by Andrew Jackson, who did the visual effects on the film and.
Oh, he was like, there in your cinema.
Yeah, he, he passed on a message from Christopher Nolan.
He did.
And Christopher Nolan said he hoped we all enjoyed the film.
That's why I've actually got an interview with Andrew Jackson, our colleague Gary Maddox is doing for the weekend papers, which I'm very excited. Yeah.
So check that out. And he seemed like a very nice man and the visual effects were amazing. So shout out to AJ.
So now that we've seen both of these movies, I personally feel like a little bit sad, almost like I really enjoyed the hype and the buildup and the memes and the conversations you guys like Happy that we're in the kind of the post Bobby Oppenheimer landscape. Are you looking forward to chatting with all your friends about these films?
Yeah, I'm really looking forward to everyone else seeing it and then seeing the kind of storylines that emerge more generally around the films. I think it's sad. It probably won't have a kind of moment like this. Maybe. Maybe towards the end of the year we'll see. I know there's some more great films. Challenges is out, but yeah, it'll be a while before we get to have this amount of box office gold. But I'm curious, you went, Ken. Angie,
you've gone the blonde hair. Are you happy with what you've staked your kind of hair on because you could have gone the Oppenheimer route, but you've backed Barbie very like aesthetically.
Yeah.
I'm just thinking how I would have gone up.
Into the hat and maybe a cigarette. Yeah.
Yeah, I think that's not. Yeah. Less so accent. I have sort of dressed up with this, like, kind of like 50 sort of suede jacket. That was my attempt to sort of bridge both know, but I think I do feel good about it because Bobby will be seen by so many people, probably more than Oppenheimer, that they'll clock their hair. I think so I do feel I do feel like I've made the right call. Thank you for asking.
I feel like I'll get way more chat out of Barbie with my friends. I feel like that'll be a much bigger topic of conversation than Oppenheimer. But yeah, I think both were great and I look forward to Oppenheimer two Oppie Rises.
How do you think Oppie? Do you think unambiguously Bobby is going to smash it at the box office?
Yeah, I think it will make $1,000,000,000,000 trillion, maybe not a trillion. My guess for the global box office in US dollars is 600 million. That's my prediction. Wow. You can hold me to that.
I think I'm not going to make a prediction because I've done that before on this part. It never goes well, but I think Bobby will crush Oppenheimer.
Yeah, I imagine so. And that shows in the film as well because it is so kind of accessible.
Yeah.
Awesome. Well, thank you so much, guys. I'm like I said, I'm a little bit sad what post Bobby and Oppenheimer Hype, but I'm sure we'll find many exciting things to talk about in the world of film, TV, music and culture. I don't know why I started sending so formal there, but I.
Was waiting for you to be like.
And next week we'll be doing a deep dive into the Nolan Back catalog.
Ranking all of his films. We might be. That's not a bad idea. Yeah, we'll think about that. I look forward to it. Thomas Mel, thanks so much.
It was a pleasure.
Thank you. Was.
This episode of The Drop was produced by Cheong. If you enjoyed listening to today's episode of The Drop, make sure to follow us in your favorite podcast app. Leave us a review or better yet, share it with a friend. I'm Osman Farooqui. See you next week.