Hey there, I'm Osman Farooqui and this is The Drop, a weekly culture show from the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age, where we dive into the latest in the world of pop culture and entertainment. I'm here with Thomas Mitchell and Mel Cambry. What's up gang? Good evening.
Wherever you're listening to this podcast or it might be morning.
Thomas is trying to be funny because I said to him, look, it's nice that you say good morning when we talk. I appreciate that, but podcasts are listened to at all hours of the day. We don't want to shatter the illusion. You know that this only exists in one particular moment in time.
Yes, well, I'm on board now, so wherever or whenever you might be listening to this, I hope you are good. It's very.
Sweet. Thank you. Mel, how are you doing?
I'm doing well. I'm doing well. I feel like I. I'm glad we've got to a stage where I can mitigate all responsibility for having to answer you. When you say, how are you? Like, it's just now assumed that Thomas will take on that that role.
You did have one more responsibility.
How were you, Osman? Oh.
Not fulfilled. Oh, thanks for asking. Thanks for asking, guys. Um, well, you know, I've. I've started boxing lessons this week. Um, I wanted to add a little bit of cardio to my workout regime. And boxing seems like a really fun way to do it, and it was really fun. But I will say my arms are quite sore and tired now. Um, Thomas, I know that you box regularly. Do you have any tips or tricks for me?
Uh, look, I think firstly, I think it's a really good thing for you. Um, just to work out some of your issues. You know, just like if you're going to be hitting the bag, that's the bag to hit. Um, I think no, I think it's really good. If we're going.
To be hitting something, it's better or a punching bag than you.
Correct? Uh, no. Look, just keep your guard up, man. Um, you know, Tyson said that everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face. Um, he also said a bunch of other dumb shit, but I think it's really good. I'm here. And, Mel, you've done some boxercise before.
I haven't actually fought a story. I went to a muay Thai boxing class with the person I was profiling, and I found it. The most difficult thing was like, I couldn't remember the, what do you call it, the like when you do a whole like, like a whole series of punches and kicks. I like, really struggled to remember like a mortal Kombat, like when you're doing an uppercut, fly, kick. I could not remember the order. I found that very difficult. Do you find that challenging, Osman?
Well, I'm really just starting. So it was like, you know, left jab, left jab, right jab, left hook. Like I could remember that.
What's your kind of killer punch, though?
Uh, I got, like, a right hook. Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, I can see.
It. Is this in a class? Right? This isn't. No, I.
Just do it one on one. Oh, really? Oh, yeah. Just Osman.
Versus demons.
I mean, he's not wrong. He's not wrong on that front. Um, well, I was going to say first things first, but we've spent a bit of time talking about my boxing. So, second topic of today's podcast. Um, we need to acknowledge Thomas's psychic abilities twice in a row. Now, he is predicted the state of origin result and the final score. Kind of. Can't believe it, I was doubtful what a time to be alive. The Blues did take it home within the margin you predicted, Thomas.
Yeah, I mean, also doubtful is completely underselling what your response was. Both of you. You were mocking me. Um. and, you know, just like saying how outrageous it was that let alone I would suggest the Blues would win, that they would win in Queensland and by that scoreline and yeah, once again, it's a big win for the Thomas heads out there. Uh and and also we all win because New South Wales won. Uh that's true. We all.
Did win. We all did.
Sweet. It was when Bradman best crossed over for that try Osman.
Oh my God it was incredible. Our text messages were just ecstatic, full of pure joy.
And this was the first time I've kind of watched The State of Origin, all three of them. What I found most shocking, and that was mainly off the back of Thomas's encouragement. Um, what I found most shocking was that the sin bin is a metaphorical concept, that they just go and sit on the bench. I found that, what do you think?
That they were put in a literal bin?
Not in a literal bin, but I thought they went somewhere for like time out by themselves. Like they didn't just get to go and sit with their mates and, like, get Gatorade and relax. They should go and sit somewhere where they are made to feel ashamed.
They do typically go into the dressing room and then right before they come back on, I think they come back to the bench.
Okay. Right.
So they are they are in a bin. I think you're.
Confused because there was a player, um, was Angus Crichton, who was who just preemptively sat down before he was sin binned. And then he had to get up and then was sent to the sin bin.
Yeah, okay. Maybe that threw me. There you go. I'm still learning.
Yeah. But yeah, I mean, I think it was a great night for everyone and, um, probably, you know, winning State of Origin in Queensland, one of the great male fantasies.
Speaking of great male fantasies, can you guys believe it's been 20 years since entourage debuted on HBO? God damn, we are old folks. That is crazy. Uh, the show, I think, shaped way more men in way more ways than they will ever willingly admit that perhaps Thomas and I will admit that on the podcast a little bit later, uh, we're going to discuss why it's the greatest show of
all time, while Mel mercilessly mocks us for being retrograde Neanderthals. Uh, we're also going to discuss the extraordinary dominance of Charli Xcx's brat. Not just the music, but the vibe, the aesthetic, the memes, the brat summer the Northern Hemisphere has had over the past couple of months, and talk about how maybe brat Summer has reached a peak and potential decline with the political embrace of the meme, in particularly Kamala Harris aligning herself so closely with this kind of funny,
weird countercultural brand. And speaking of Harris, we talked a little bit about US politics last week. It's very funny for us as a pop culture podcast to weigh in, and I am keen to get your guys takes on, you know, who Kamala should pick as her vice president. But there's been a real convergence of pop culture and politics. This is a very American thing. Obviously, they're very into their celebs running for President Reagan, Schwarzenegger as governor. Trump himself,
I guess, is like a cultural celebrity turned politician. Uh, I would say maybe now we're living in a period where there's a little bit too much pop culture in politics. George Clooney wrote that opinion piece for The New York Times that, I guess, kind of started the avalanche of people saying Biden should step down. I don't know if you guys caught Aaron Sorkin's op ed on the weekend,
he wrote. So Aaron Sorkin, obviously creator of The West Wing, Sports Night, The Newsroom, he wrote The Social Network, Molly's Game, very well known writer, and a lot of people love to make fun of The West Wing for how kind of cringe it was in its politics at the time, and this kind of small l liberal fantasy. He wrote the most Aaron Sorkin opinion piece of all time, where he was like, Joe Biden should step down and I know who should be the nominee. It should be Mitt Romney,
the Republican, and people like Aaron Sorkin. That is crazy. And then the timing was hilarious because two hours later, Biden stepped down and Kamala Harris was the nominee, and Sorkin tweeted something like, oh, no, no. Just for the record, I agree with Kamala. This is really good. This is really good. Um, real galaxy brain stuff for him. But seeing the list of celebrities kind of come out and say things. Spike Lee was very quick to, to throw his support. I think he called Kamala like de Gaulle
or something like that. Uh, good on you, spike. Uh, Robert De Niro said thank you to Joe Biden for stepping down. One man in his 80s, you know, applauding another man in his 80s, um, hopefully doesn't mean that De Niro will also step down from his acting prime. And then, on the other hand, Trump has Hulk Hogan and Kid Rock. Did you guys watch any of those performances from the RNC? What did you make of it?
Ah, I mean, like as a WWE fan, when I in my younger years, I was like, oh, Hulk Hogan's still alive. Barely. But yeah, I mean, it is very funny. Like, I guess just like seeing kid Rock and Hulk Hogan. Like, if you were to find two celebs that were like
so aligned with Trumpland, I suppose that makes sense. But I think generally, like on both sides, people have this real, I think, like pushback against seeing any time they feel that a celebrity is like, you know, kind of trying to push them in a particular way or, you know, just even involve with the political movement. I think our, you know, like suspicion of celebrity kind of activism is so high right now that, like, I don't know how
much weight. I mean, you're right in that the Clooney piece, I think did he's such a big, important Democrat. He's like almost like his relationship to the Democrats is less of like a celebrity thing. Like he's properly involved.
Yes. Yeah. He's like a major donor and yeah, like that that held weight.
But I think generally we're wary of celebrity activism now on both sides of the corridor.
Yeah, I think that's probably true. And they've become like obviously increasingly visible players in global politics because of their fanbases and their media reach and their access to their own platforms. Um, it's probably it's an interesting question for democracy, really not to make it too serious because there.
Make it serious, man. We're talking about the presidential election. This is serious stuff.
That's true because there are power comes from their ability to kind of attract attention, but they have no political expertise. So I mean, that is kind of, you know, whether that translates to electoral influence and policy is an interesting question. I don't actually think it does. Same with you, Thomas. Like, I don't know if it's it changes, um, the, the poll results. And we have seen in the past high profile endorsements, really high profile endorsements that have made no difference.
I think maybe it has the biggest impact on the celebrity's public image. Like that's actually where the biggest change is.
Because it's funny already, like with the like Kamala thing. It's like so many people I've seen tweeting like, Where's Taylor? Like kind of waiting for the Taylor drop to be like, you know, and maybe she is one of the few people that still can, like move the needle. Like if Taylor Swift came out in support of Kamala. Really hardcore, you know, like telling people to vote, telling people to sign up, would that maybe, you know, change things?
I actually agree with you that that is maybe the one person that could I largely agree with what you guys have said. I think in an American political context, someone reminded me of this yesterday. We'll talk more about the Charlie Kamala thing. And I was like, well, does that really matter if someone like Taylor Swift or Charli XCX endorses Kamala Harris? Like how many, you know, 22 year olds listening to brat are like, well, I was going to vote for Trump, but now Charli has come out,
I might switch. But then they reminded me that the US has their, uh, you know, non-compulsory voting system. And there's a lot of young people who feel very cynical about both sides and might just stay home, but someone like Taylor Swift saying, hey guys, if you want to protect abortion rights or whatever, you should get organized and register and go vote. That could shift the dial in a way that probably like De Niro and Spike Lee even probably are not going to.
Yeah, I think that's, um, I think that's very true, because I think the fact that they don't have to compulsorily vote is really where the power of these celebrities lies, particularly for the for the Democrats.
Before we move on from this one, I just there's a regular segment we're going to have now is like what JD Vance is up to. We had a lot of fun talking about him last week. This is Trump's, uh, pick for the vice presidency. Um, the author that Mel loves, uh, really funny, interesting people found his, like, blogspot from 2011 or maybe even earlier where he, he talks about, like, his life traveling from Ohio to Yale and, you know,
his kind of suburban malaise. Uh, Henry gave us a little bit of a review of Garden State, the Zach Braff film. So he's talking about being in the airport, and he says, I couldn't watch Garden State because New Jersey's landscape is so much like Ohio's. The music is so relevant to my life right now. And the story of a guy returning home, realizing that home isn't what it used to be, etc. made me want to tear up. I mean, that's Garden State in a nutshell, right? It really.
Is. I never really I can't believe he was like a shins guy.
Lebanese blonde by Thievery Corp, just, you know, makes him weep. Still to this day.
It's so strange how he's managed to make something quite banal sound so poignant.
You can't get off this hype train at all, can you, man? You're just like, damn.
I want more. I mean, also, I'd love to imagine what was on your blogspot of 2011.
Well, honestly, when I saw that, I was like, shit, is that still up?
Yeah, I probably need to do like a bit of did.
You really blog?
I mean, it's best not to talk about it. Uh, is there a JD Vance review of The Legend of Bagger Vance? Because that I think.
That's really funny. That's really funny. Um, yeah. My blog when I was a teenager was about New South Wales state politics. That's how cool.
Oh my God.
Wow. It was called Macquarie Street.
It's set in a dune world.
Yeah. interpreted through fiction.
It wasn't fan fiction, maybe. I don't know what's lamer that I was writing serious news stories when I was 15, or writing fan fiction about, um, Premier Nathan Rees. I was not doing that for the record. Um, that's a throwback. Uh, let's talk about brat. We discussed the album at length when it was released on June 7th. It has become Charli's biggest selling album yet, but I think what's become even bigger is the, I guess vibe, the meme, the
aura around brat. How do you describe it? Well, according to Charlie herself, brat is a little messy, likes to party, and maybe says some dumb things sometime. Someone who feels herself, but then also maybe has a breakdown, but kind of like parties through it. They're very honest, very blunt, a little bit volatile. Mel, in your group chats with girls. Women? Is that how you guys are describing yourselves these days? Is this is this the mood, the vibe amongst cool
millennial Gen Z women? This kind of brat aura?
I was hoping you might describe me as urbane again. That's, uh. I was really hoping that might make a reappearance. Uh, look, on a on one level, I find on the surface level, if I don't think about it too much, I find brat like the movement very fun. I think it's, uh, it's a fun movement on the socials, and I think it's, uh, it's people are having a lot of fun with it. If I really think about it, I guess, I mean, all kind of labels like that are kind of reductive
and performative. Um, but I think the more interesting thing is like, what is brat reacting against? Like, why is brat having a moment? And I guess it's kind of moving against that clean girl aesthetic, which is dominated TikTok and also fashion. The idea of the put together girl with the slick backed bun and the neutral nails and the the clothes that don't kind of stand out. Like it's obviously a very direct reaction against that. And it's obviously a reaction against a feminism that Gen Z sees
as too serious and and stifling. So I think that part of it is interesting. And I mean, ultimately it's about owning elements of oneself that have traditionally been seen as troubling for women, like women who like to party, who are messy. So I guess it's good that you're like, that level is being reclaimed. But I mean, ultimately, I do kind of wonder if brat is Manic Pixie for a 21st century. It's manic pixie with a bit of edge. Really. I don't think anything's new. Um, so I'm cautious of
it and interested. And I believe I can be a brat.
That's an interesting take. I, Thomas, loath as I am to ask you this question in particular, but, um, one one thing that stood out to me about that kind of Charli description of it, and it certainly seems to like, resonate with the way it's being deployed by people I know on social media. There's the kind of like, you know, just like, you know, we're girls and we're a bit wacky. We like to party. We're also a little bit dumb. That does seem to be a vibe at the moment.
And to Mel's point, it does also seem to be a bit of a reaction to this kind of broader idea of like, I don't want to get, I don't want to get too ideological about this stuff, but like this mode of feminism that we seem to be in reflected through culture, of that kind of like girlboss work hard, you can make it all work. Get what you want.
There's a there's a way out of like the trap of kind of capitalism and the sociological factors that apply and everyone kind of realizing that that is all a bit bullshit and like, what's the point of working our way up to the top and playing by the rules? It's all stupid. Anyway. Let's just have a bit of dumb fun. The kind of return of the tradwife thing. The explosion of Red scare, which is obviously referenced in Charlie's album all seems to be part of this too.
Yeah, I mean, I think it's like we're definitely living in a time when young people, capital P are feeling like a certain.
Was it a capital P?
I don't know. Capital. Capital P a feeling like a certain level of hopelessness. And I think that has manifested itself in this like for, you know, young millennial women, it's kind of like the way you get ahead of like, the future that's been dictated to you anyway. And like, you know, I that makes so much sense to me. Like, it's it's a kind of grim outlook out there for so many people like, you know, both here and overseas and, and in all kind of aspects of life. And so
like this makes sense that it's popping up again. Like I do agree, this is just a repetition of, you know, like stuff we've seen before, like, you know, like the whole hot mess thing that was like being in the kind of late, which was.
Also a form of manic pixie, I think, like a development.
Like I remember there's a whole Hot Mess episode of The Mindy Project with, like, you know, that character was completely brat. Uh, and same with Fleabag, even, like, she was a hot mess, which is a brat, like, you know, it's all just an evolution of the same thing. But I think it's particularly like big right now. And I do, you know, as you know, I go on Instagram and like, see these trends. But like you do see lots of like I've got lots of my friends who are like
super smart, successful women. And then they'll be posting stuff like kind of like tongue in cheek about like how messed up and like fucked up their lives are and like lol. And it's kind of like it's true. Like, but they're just kind of getting ahead of the curve, I think, and kind of claiming it to own what's really going on. But like, they're not really those people.
Yeah. It's not it's not cool right now to be successful and to be playing by the rules. It's cooler to embrace a kind of nihilism or irony and just lean into that. Even if you know you work in finance 14 hours a day, that's not what you want to project. But then I also think, like there is a genuine sense of that nihilism that you're describing in terms of just how a lot of people our generation and younger feel about where the world is going.
Yeah, I think that's very true. And I think you could also maybe read the the hedonism that is embodied in, in the brat kind of idea, not just as nihilism, but hedonism as reacting against expectations of women, all of them. So if you kind of take brat as its base level as that, then that is a positive thing. If it's about reacting against, you know, what's expected of you, traditional stereotypes, how society wants you to behave, then if that's the net level of it, then I guess that's
a good thing. But, um, yeah, always wary of these things. But I do think.
It is funny that like the split in, I would say like, you know, we're all in our like mid 30s the I think like the people that I see around me like in my, you know, like echo chamber, the women especially who are like adopting it, it definitely is in more of like a like kind of performative like this is a funny trend. Like, I could I'm
happy to like jump on this for a bit. Whereas like, I think the I mean, the origins of the actual brat movement that, you know, perhaps Charlie was referring to and maybe like, you know, people, women in their kind of like, early 20s are really talking about is a more genuine feeling of like, well, this is all pretty fucked,
like whatever. Whereas I think, like the older you get, it's like you kind of you can clock the vibe and you can clock the trend and you're like, oh, this is quite a fun one for me to jump on. But like, also I have a, you know, $800,000 mortgage and I get paid $200,000 a year. And like, I'm, you know, planning my second child and shit.
Yeah. Like totally. If you're going to be kind of partying all the time and, um, not caring about things, the early 20s is the time to do that.
Yeah, exactly.
There is a visual element to this as well. It's defined by like the brat cover up, the lime green, that sort of simple font. And Charlie's aesthetic on this very like early 2000 club rat kind of energy. It is kind of everywhere. And to your point, I think a lot of this is being passing this through what women I know are posting on Instagram. And it's just like, anytime there's anything green people on holiday, they're like, you know, I'm in Copenhagen right now. Brat. London. Uh, and that
has been I mean, it's kind of fun. It's just nice that there's another universal ish meme that everyone kind of understands and has jumped on. Um, pretty harmless, pretty cool. But then it starts to bleed into politics. Everything fun and good and organic ultimately gets eaten up by big machines in some capacity. Uh, so Kamala Harris, uh, we didn't say this explicitly. She's, you know, the presumptive Democratic
nominee for the presidency. In case people haven't been following that stuff super closely, she has a tendency to say slightly odd things. You guys across the coconut tree thing? Yeah, yeah, it's really funny clip.
My mother used to she would give us a hard time sometimes and she would say to us, I don't know what's wrong with you young people. You think you just fell out of a coconut tree? You exist in the context of all in which you live and what came before you. So all of this opponents of.
Harris have made all these videos mashing up, you know, like slightly wacky things that she said and trying to expose her as this, you know, quote unquote mad woman. Uh, but then fans of Harris have like, kind of reclaimed that and remixed those videos using tracks from brat, adding kind of like lime green colors to it and being like, Camila is Camila's brat, man, this is it. Just a bit messy. She's a bit dumb. She's going for it. She's handed out, she's at the club. This is how it works.
Um.
A couple of days ago, Charli herself tweeted after, like, Camila became the presumptive nominee. Camilla is brat. Harry's team, uh, is using the brat font as their banner image on social media. So they are like really like loving this alignment. And these two forces, this kind of like club energy from London to Washington DC have bizarrely merged together. Uh, and, you know, you could say that like, this is the peak of brat. You could argue that perhaps this is
the beginning of the end of brat. In Australia, the Queensland Premier, Steven Miles, posted a TikTok where he was at the, uh, workshop where they were building new buses for. For Brisbane there were lime green and he was like, nah, buses are so bright. I feel like when the Queensland Premier's posting stuff, it's like done and dusted. The camera
thing I think is a little bit more interesting. I'm keen to talk to you guys about whether or not you think this is the beginning of the end of brat, now that it's been so embraced by like, the Democratic machine? Or is it brat evolving into another level of cultural dominance?
I mean, I fear it's the beginning of the end. Like after they retweeted the brat thing, my father in law, who is and he won't mind me saying this, a big Trump fan, he texted to the family group and he was like, what is this? Like, what is brat? And then it's just a series of messages where he was like, also, I'm hearing that potentially Biden is dead. Um, that's a whole other podcast. But he's I mean, I don't know if you guys know, but Biden is dead. That's the hot tip.
That's our that's our Patreon podcast. Find out. Yeah.
That one. Um, but yeah, like, I mean, when once brat awareness has hit, you know, the suburban 65 year old dads in Australia, it's over.
Unfortunately, that's where memes go to die, man.
Exactly, exactly. Yeah. When he's screenshotting them off a Facebook screenshot and posting them into the WhatsApp thread, then the meme is dead. But no. Yeah, I think I think, you know, like good on them for doing it. And also it was actually perfect for their campaign because like, you know, she's coming in like kind of behind the eight ball. This is of all the great I mean to use another set of origin phrase of all the great hospital passes, Biden has absolutely centering. And, you know,
like Gordon Taylor is bearing down on her. But I feel like that gave her a bit of momentum like that. This has given her a bit of a like, you know, the campaign, a kickstart. There's like something to rally behind. Um, people are, you know, like think it's really funny, but I just don't know if that if it's kind of the beginning of the end for brat Summer.
Yeah. I reckon it's definitely the beginning of the end. I would have thought, like, you know, these social media trends hit their peak and then come down the other side. So I would have seen that coming in the next few months. I think this is probably hastened it. Um, particularly because the people who were enjoying this trend were much younger, the people appropriating it are much older. So I think they will start to it will start to
get used less. I think it will go through its period of being ironically used now, like it was genuinely used. Now we're in irony stage, and then we'll look back on this in a few years and be like, well, that was that brief lived brat summer. But I think the use of the politicians using it is interesting, because I do think it then, even though I think brat
is political, it doesn't ostensibly seem to be. Whereas I think when politicians use it, it takes it into the dome, it takes it into the domain of the political, which then makes it less kind of universal. Um, and then, you know, claiming to be brat or describing things as brat then becomes a political action. So then it's less used. So yes, I think, um, I think it's the beginning of the end. But I'm glad you're wearing green today, Thomas.
Yes, that's true actually.
Who do you think, uh, benefits more from this alignment between Harris and Bratt? Like, you know, Thomas, you said it gives her this, like, boost, a bit of energy. I agree with that. Generally speaking, I'd be like, the celebrity loses out, but Charlie is someone who's finally, like,
really done well in the US market. After plugging away for a while, I'd be interesting to watch the charts and be like, if this does enter the American kind of conversation for a week or two, when a whole bunch of people who are like, oh, what's this about? Listen to her albums, potentially. This is a big boost for her as well. You know, in in swing states like Michigan.
And yeah, I think that's probably true. And maybe they're trying to get the Barack Obama when he first went into office, had that whole kind of coolness behind him, like he was a cool candidate. And so maybe they're trying to replicate that in this way as well.
I think the other part of this is that, like, even though there's a chance, uh, that Charlie gets some, you know, extra streams out of it, there's also a risk in, like, I wouldn't say that like Charlie or Brad, heads necessarily overlap neatly with, like, Democratic vice presidential candidates who used to be cops and prosecutors and, you know, have, you know, conservative foreign policy. So there's there's also like I've seen Charli XCX fans, this is the risk for
celebs in this space be like, oh, this is so lame. Like, this is not what I want you to be using. Like, if you're if you're like a 24 year old girl and you've been pumping out brat content in between, like really hectic, radical political slides, and then all of a sudden charli's like Camila is brat, you'd be feeling pretty.
Pissed off with the stock you.
Bought a month or so ago, right?
Yeah. That's true. Yeah, I guess it's kind of I mean, I like it's probably one of those things that we're obviously sitting here discussing it. She probably just like knowing Charlie as I do. Um, she probably just like, fucking fired it off and was like, this is funny.
This is funny. Totally. And now here's a bunch of people in their 30s debating it.
Yeah, yeah. And me being like, I think what it is. No. But like, yeah, that's probably like the reality of what happened. Um, and now we just kind of like watch it all play out. But yeah, I would say just like slightly off topic, but I do think this whole thing has made me a little bit excited just for the general meme environment leading up to the election, because it has been amazing already. Not off topic.
We have. We're veering into like Pod Save America territory for the next, you know, six months. This is what we're doing now.
And one of my favorite ones, uh, was just as soon as this all happened. Have you seen the one, like, going around like the the headshot of Connor Roy, and it's like he's tanned. He's ready. I was like, man, amazing. This was the guy we should have had leading. Um, like,
the internet is just going to do it. So this has been obviously a very, you know, insane and turbulent, um, kind of like few months in the lead up to the election with everything that's going on, like between Biden pulling out and the assassination, and the internet is just like fucking doing what it does.
Best, man. You said a few months, it's been like three weeks since Donald Trump was shot in the head, and Joe Biden's pulled out of the race. Crazy times.
Tenacious D with an unsuspecting victim of this. Like.
How wild is it that the Trump news it's, like, certainly says something about the world we live in in the news cycle that Trump, our former president and presidential candidate, nearly being assassinated is just like not around on news websites that much.
Can I say.
Something controversial and don't take this as an endorsement? But like, honestly, Trump is brat. Oh.
He probably is a bit more brat than Kamala.
He's been about.
His kind of weird manic energy and just like, you know, just he keeps, you know, we talk about the Hannibal Lecter thing he's talked about. He keeps bringing up Hannibal Lecter in speeches, and he keeps describing him as the late, great Hannibal Lecter. Like he thinks he's a real person who is both good and dead when he is not real. Famously, not a good guy. Serial killer and a murderer. And in canon, not dead. It's one of the most perplexing cultural overlaps with politics I've seen.
He also has, like the messy hair. Like, he's like a bit of a club rat. And he's just been at fabric or something, been doing for 24 hours, and he, like, wakes up and then he's a.
Bit disheveled and makeup isn't right. Yeah.
Like, there would be some fucking brat parties at Mar a Lago.
Oh, man, who's gonna write that piece?
Yeah.
But I've said it. I've gone out on a limb. I'm going to get assassinated.
I thought what you were going to say is that, like, at this point, I almost wondered, obviously, Trump, you know, assassination has was like very sad. We don't want that happening. And, you know, it's it's kind of done wonders for his like resurgence is like if Biden was to pass away from Covid does that Trump a near assassination. Like where do we what's the what's like what is the hierarchy of?
I think the sad thing is we're just fully talking about politics now. I think like the Biden thing is over, man. It's like it's Kamala now. And I think if Biden died, I don't people be like, that's sad. I think people would move on kind of quickly and just be like, you know.
Had a good run. It's kind of like.
When someone's grandparent dies, but they're really old and they've been really sick.
Well, he wasn't taken too soon.
Yeah. Yeah, it.
Was like the average life expectancy in America is like 78. He's 82 or something. Like, it's kind of the most least surprising thing that could happen. Um, yeah. How do we eject from this conversation?
Um.
All right.
Let me allow me. Uh, yes. Well, look, it's all very crazy. Um, but allow me to blow you away with something crazier. Obviously, Trump is preparing for his second tilt as the Republican nominee in 2004. He was preparing for his very first season as host of The Apprentice. In some ways, the beginning of his kind of rise to power. That show kind of like blasted him into wider culture. And then he obviously found a career in politics. But you know what also happened in 2004? Osman.
What was a big year for Premiere Television. It was when a show about four guys from New York who moved to LA to make it big first premiered. It's been 20 years since entourage was released. People say Sopranos changed television. Men? No, it was older men. Men were killing it on HBO in that year, like women had sex in the city. We had Sopranos, The Wire, entourage, like, Take me Back, man. No wonder people voting for Trump like, make fucking HBO great again. It's crazy.
I know.
It's why you guys keep calling it the golden age of television. I keep telling you, it wasn't.
The.
Golden balls of television.
It was, and remains, I think, a pretty divisive show in terms of whether you're an entourage head or you
really hate it. It has a lot of fans, and I think both for the kind of fantasy elements of just watching a bunch of rich guys have fun in L.A. uh, and also, you know, like it's a satire on Hollywood and movies and the whole, you know, cult of celebrity in that kind of peak 2000 era as well, but has faced a lot of very fair criticism for the sexism, homophobia and racism that is imbued, I guess, in the
DNA of the show itself. Uh, before we kind of unpack this show and talk about like, why it was such a phenomenon, its legacy, what worked, what didn't, why it is so divisive. I want to ask you guys about your relationship to it. Mel, first up, what is your history with entourage?
Well, I've been lucky. I've been able to go the last 20 years without watching it. Um, but I actually, I kind of think of it, you know, how in Barbie there's that really great montage where men are playing Matchbox 20 push, and they're talking about The Godfather. I would put entourage, like, you could have subbed entourage into that and it would have worked. But in saying that a lot of smart, sensible, sensitive men in my life have enjoyed entourage. And so for me that is interesting, um,
and worth my consideration. So I have gone back in preparation for this pod, and I watched the first kind of five episodes, and then I watched some scattered episodes that have had a lot of, um, a lot of discussion about them or a kind of pinch pinch hitter episodes. So obviously I feel like I'm not going to be able to fully understand and appreciate the character arcs that
these characters definitely don't go on. But, um, yeah, I'm excited to talk more about it, and maybe to bring a perspective of someone watching it for the first time in this context versus I imagine you guys were hot into it when you were when you were in your youth.
Thomas, what do you reckon? Were you hot into it in your youth? What's your what's your relationship with this show?
Uh, I had all the entourage DVDs. Yeah. I mean, look, man, like, in the least surprising news of all time for anyone that listens to this podcast. I mean, you and I were both. We couldn't have been more bang in the demo. Really? Like, it came out when I was like, what, 1415? Like, you know, there was no there was no 15 year
old version of me that escaped entourage. Um, and and the same thing with all my friends, like, you know, it was almost like probably one of the like I loved Sopranos and stuff, but that was it felt like a, you know, it's a different show for me. Like, I loved it. I probably didn't fully understand it. Whereas entourage was like there for me to really, like, take in. Um, yeah. And it's funny, like, everyone's relationship, I think, with the
show has changed a lot. Um, in, in the 20 years since it premiered, especially because the show finished in 2011. But then the movie came out in 2015, and the movie, I think, was a good way for lots of people who grew up with the show, like me and you probably Osmond, to like to realize that this show had like, was a little bit crazy and probably had some big problems because it kind of the movie like.
Passed its expiry date by then.
Exactly. Yeah. And then we kind of cut forward another ten years to now and it's 20 years. And you know, like obviously the legacy is a funny thing. These anniversaries like you're forced to like reflect on what did the show mean and stuff. But like yeah, I find myself in conversations like not wanting to defend entourage because I'm fully aware of like all of its downfalls. But I do think there are certain parts of it that have become like it was. 2004 was a fucking weird time.
It was a it was a dumb show written by a guy who was basically writing about his life experience. Like, what did we expect it to be?
My experience is is pretty similar to to yours. I think the only thing I'd add is that every time I do a rewatch and I do one every couple of years, I did one last year. I'm sort of surprised by like, and maybe because my memories and expectations of its politics and stuff are so low, I'm kind of surprised by the quality of the writing and, and
some of the acting and some of the storylines and. Yeah, look, look, I think a lot of people, you know, a lot of people talk about the misogyny inherent in the show and it's like fair to say that there are very few women characters who have anything in the show other than just like they're hot models that the guys want to have sex with. They're like, obviously a few women characters that are a bit more fleshed, a bit more interesting, but there's so many episodes where like that stuff actually
is not really part of the show. I think a lot of people haven't seen the show, think it's like every episode it's like which smoking hot perfect ten model Will Vince and the gang hang out with? And that
does happen. I'm not trying to pretend that there isn't an element of that there, but a lot of it is like an increasingly, especially the first half of the show, the first four seasons and seasons two, three, four, where it's about, you know, Vince trying to get in median and these stories about Hollywood or whatever the the kind of sexism of the show fades a little bit into the background and you're like, oh, there's a reason why
this show was interesting, compelling. It wasn't just softcore pornography. I think the bits that really stand out to me are like the, the homophobia and and racism particularly directed from Ari Gold to his assistant, Lloyd. I mean, Ari Gold is one of the funniest characters. He's also a bad person. So he says this stuff. It's not necessarily the show endorsing homophobia and racism, but he's never really subject to backlash for it, you know? And then it
does happen a bit. And you do get these these moments where he's challenged, but it always comes back to, like, Lloyd ultimately loves him, even though he is one of the worst people to him in the world. So that is my attempt to try to like put not not not defend the politics of the show, but to say that there are there's a lot of it that goes beyond those kinds of issues and makes it something interesting to still watch now and interesting to still talk about now.
Yeah, I agree. And I think like, yeah, it's very easy to be like it was a silly show. It was the kind of Emily in Paris of its day. It was something you could watch and just take on surface level. Like it's very easy to say that. But the thing is, that show was so immensely popular and so, um, had such wide reach that it is worthy to consider what the fantasy was that people were so interested in. Like,
I'm not saying. And in this discussion, like, I don't think the show is pretending to be anything other than what it is. But I think the discussion point is, why did so many people connect with that idea? And what does that say about us collectively?
Definitely. It's a really good point. I mean, like very quickly, for anyone who's totally unfamiliar with it's like loosely based on Mark Wahlberg's real life, his crew moving to LA when he was in the 90s, navigating Hollywood, working their way up run ins him and his crew have with studio execs, with other celebrities, with other actors. Every episode is kind of standalone. There are some season wide arcs about, you know, movies and things that they're trying to get into.
A lot of celebrities make cameos. James Cameron famously like, is trying to make a, uh, superhero movie called Aquaman at a time when everyone was like, are superhero movies good luck man. And now they're so dominant. There's even like a movie called Ferrari that's in the film. There's a Gatsby film. All these movies happen before their equivalents
in real life. And honestly, for me, when I was thinking about this conversation, I was like, did I really fall in love with, like, cinema and Hollywood and the art of like, you know, making these things and caring about producers and studios through entourage. And I reckon I probably did. I reckon I learnt a lot of the language and the stories and the details of this stuff. Watching the show, that made it seem really interesting and dynamic and weird and actually wanting to learn more about it.
I don't know if either of you guys can can relate to that.
Yeah, I that for me that is by far the best part of the show is the Hollywood element of it, and it's the insider stuff. One of the episodes I watched, which was really good, was everyone stressing about whether the film would have a bigger opening day than was it Spider-Man, I think. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that it was all
of that stuff. It was the role of the agents, the film choices, the pressure from producers, the the publicists, the kind of mechanics of the industry that I found most interesting and was by far the best part of the show and the part that I think has stood the test of time, only because a lot of it is strangely prescient of films that did get made of things that have happened in the industry.
Yeah, I think like, I mean, I think keeping in mind this is 2004, like before we fully were like in the stranglehold of reality TV. And like Doug Ellin, the creator, tells this story so regularly about how, like so many people, when the show started, thought it was a there were real people like thought it was a I thought he was like, this was a documentary. Um, because like, you know, we have a genuine appetite for
that stuff now more than ever. Like, you know, if entourage, if entourage was to be made in 2024, it would probably just be a fly on the wall following. Like, I don't know, Timothée Chalamet as he visits a bunch of boulangeries or whatever, but like, I think that's how.
Far we've come.
Yeah, yeah, I think it would be so boring. I'd much rather watch the Vincent Chase one. Um, but like, I think, you know, the voyeuristic element was a huge part of what made it so good. You know, people love to peek behind the curtain of anything but especially Hollywood, this, you know, huge system that we're all like, you know, know so much about. And, you know, we watch the movies and stuff. But to figure out, like, what does a movie star do, like on a Tuesday afternoon like
that shit is interesting. And that's why I do think, like, you know, the the kind of revisionist history of entourage and the very, like, fair criticisms of it, you know, the, the fact that it does have like all it's like, you know, there's lots of misogyny. It is really racist. Like, but the, the criticism that has become so loud that it's like reduced the rest of the show to like, oh, it didn't really offer anything. Whereas like, I don't think that is true.
Yeah. And I think really smart in terms of that reality. Uh, like what's real, what's drama. The show leaned into that like it had real actors like Mandy Moore play fictionalized versions of themselves. And so you really felt like you were getting a peek into how it works. Fuck knows
if that's actually the case. I mean, in that vein, also, there was a character who was a very wealthy and powerful film producer who went to Sundance and threatened people a lot and was very aggressive and quite large, and his name was Harvey Weingard in the show, and it was obviously a reference to Harvey Weinstein. It was one of the first pop culture kind of statements that this guy exists and he's a monster Decade before the kind of revelations in the in the Times and the MeToo movement.
So the show was very knowing about a lot of this stuff. On the kind of the other side. A lot of the reasons why I like the show was great party scenes, great soundtrack, a lot of stuff about dudes just like hanging out. And I think when you're a teenager, you're like, is this what being a man is? And I think this is this is one of the
bits of the show that I can't really reconcile. And it's not really the show's fault that a bunch of people our age, Thomas More teenagers, watched it and were like, well, you know, this this feels more, uh, aspirational, aspirational to me than like, The Wire, The Sopranos. Um, my dream is to just get enough money and, like, smoke weed with my friends, go to basketball games, get front row, you know, seats and just hang out that that was what I thought peak being a dude was.
Yeah. And this is I was saying this the other day, like, I think everyone or dudes watch that show and thought they wanted to be Vince when all of them were being turtle at the time, like, that's who they were. And Vince was aspirational. I mean, I don't you're kind of very gracefully sidestepping the element of how these men treat women as being also kind of potentially aspirational. You know,
the show presenting that as that's what men are like. Um, I mean, I think that argument and you do see it a lot in defense of this, that the show is about male friendship is like wrong and kind of silly. Like, I think that's a silly argument or like it's an argument that doesn't take into account what that male friendship is like. It's about I was thinking of, you know, Leo's pussy posse. Like, we'd never say that. That was male friendship. Like, that's if you really think about what
bonds these men. It's money, power and women. That's their currency. That's what the friendship and the status in the group is based on. That is the codified behavior that creates their friendship.
Power, baby.
Yeah. What's the issue?
That's it. Like. And yeah, you can have issues about that. But I don't know, like if you can make the case that the show says anything deeper about friendship other than what I've just said, that in that.
No, look, I agree with you. I don't think it actually does. And even when I was writing my notes on this, I was like, oh, it's about friendship. And I thought about it and I'm like, what does that have to say about it? But here's the thing, right? I'm keen on your thoughts on this, Thomas. You're right, Mel, that it doesn't go beyond that. But what there weren't really a lot of shows that just portrayed what it
means to be a guy. Like, you're having issues with your girlfriend and you talk to your friends about it, you're having issues with your job, and you talk to your friends about it. They didn't talk about it particularly well. It wasn't like deep insight into the nature of, like how to navigate relationships and your career. Really. Like not a lot of TV shows were like men were talking
about stuff in the mid 2000. I was just trying to say it's more more relatable and accurate issues than like Tony Soprano talking to Uncle June about the Rico act, you know?
Yeah. I mean, like, I kind of I kind of agree. I mean, like, I don't I think it, you know, of course that was how it was framed as a show about male friendship. And I do think, like a lot of the people around the show have done a lot of, like, hard work in the, you know, time since it finished and they've kind of been reading the room on what people think of the show and they've been, you know, trying to be like, no, it was always
about male friendship. Like, I appreciate all that. I do think that, like, I kind of agree, like, you know, not to play a game of comparisons, but like sex and the city is the obvious comparison in that it was. So it finished right before entourage started, I think. And that's obviously, you know, often entourage was called like the male version of sex and the city. But like, you know, there that version of friendship, like, Carrie is famously the
worst friend in the world. Like, I think there are. I mean, you know, you've only seen a few episodes, but there is a lot in this show that like that bonds them. Aside from like getting fucked up and having sex and stuff like you have like, you know, Johnny constantly kind of being the the fact that he's just like the punch line for him is that he can't quite achieve anything, but like, they really, like deal
with shit like that. Like, I do think that the standard may be low for like TV shows exploring or really like interrogating male friendship? I think this show tried to do it.
Nah, I don't think so.
No, I think so.
I mean like is it is is is Carrie telling her friends she would never have sex with the bisexual man? You know better or worse than EA helping Vin navigate like a professional crisis.
I think it's the.
Level of engagement. Like, I guess there are two things. Like, if we're talking about what this show says about friendships, obviously the friendships in sex and the city are more intensely examined, like those dynamics are way more complicated. And when they're talking about sex, it's brought to the table for discussion. Whereas I think in this show, it's like the throwaway line of virgins are too much responsibility. Or have you ever fucked a girl on it, period. Like,
that's not a kind of interesting or developed discussion. And it doesn't have to be. And they're there questions. But like, I guess what I'm saying is like, I don't it's not attempting to be men seriously unpacking relations with women. It's not intending to be that. And I don't think it does do that. Um, so yeah, I don't really buy the argument that it's like an insightful way of discussing.
No, I think we're actually probably more in agreement on this one than in disagreement, because I also don't think it is like, you know, the holy grail of like, good conversation. I'm just trying to say that there was so few of those things happening in television that it actually is a bit like, oh, wow, men are talking about like any like, the bar is so low here that just men talking about anything to do with their lives,
their families, sex existed. And I'm like, I'm not trying to say that like, men are underrepresented or were underrepresented in television, but it is kind of stark to think that what other dramas that existed before entourage of groups of men existing together and talking about things that aren't teenage, like, you know, Nano 2.0 or the OC, that sort of stuff that was very like in high school stuff for people in that kind of like 20s. I don't know
what that show was. And certainly by the time Thomas and I were teenagers, I don't know what that show was that was on.
Yeah, I think that's fair. And I mean, sex and the city made an impact in the same way, in the sense that it was an avenue to show women on TV talking about their issues. I mean, I do. I know you keep saying you couldn't relate to Sopranos, but I do think that Mr. Soprano is a far more relatable male than anyone in this show. No respect. Like he struggles with his role in the family.
And the older I get, the more I'm like, yeah, I fucking get this shit. But like.
It's a far more relatable presentation of what it is to be human. This is fantasy and that's fine. Like, I think we just need to be like, it is fantasy. It is a projection. It is. It's the cinema of desire. If we want to get Freudian on it like it's just.
Fantasy, it is fantasy. But the dynamic between those four guys like for better or worse, definitely like because essentially they're like, they've all got like Arrested Development, they're basically high schoolers. The dynamic between to.
Tell you, Mel, when four guys get together, that's what they.
Talk about.
It's very similar to how like people interact, like in high school, like how and like, you know, there's always someone trying to be the big dog. Everyone's taking the piss out of each other like that. That's not like like, I'm sorry to say, my group of friends was a lot more like that than, like, fucking Sal and Tony and Christopher sitting at fucking Satriale's.
Though you did eat a lot of ham.
Yeah. I mean.
Yeah, we had the cured meats, but that was where I stopped.
There's a problem with, um, problem with modern society is that, uh, a lot of women of a certain age grow up watching sex in the city and thought that's what they should emulate. A lot of men grew up watching entourage. That's what they should emulate. Everyone in politics and media watched The fucking West Wing and thought that's what they should emulate. We're all kind of like breaking the world because we were raised by kind of weird and kind of fucked up HBO shows.
Yeah, I think that's, uh, that's probably true. And that's why I always think that, like, it's good to discuss these shows and their meaning, even if it's not like what the show is intending to do and like. It's not about the expectation of the show, but it did influence so many people. And the type of men and women we have today are a result of pop culture, and it's why culture is so important. Yeah, that's.
Why it's so interesting, because we can all acknowledge the limits as to how good or bad it was. But the reality was it did influence human beings in terms of their thinking and approach to stuff. Thomas, you spoke to Doug Ellin, the creator of the show. What did you learn from him about entourage during the time and its legacy?
Um, I think he has a complicated relationship with the legacy. Uh, he, you know, especially like, you know, the 20th anniversary was just last week. Um, HBO, like, maybe put up a single Instagram post, um, to celebrate it. And, you know, like, it's fair to say that had this been the 20th anniversary of sex and the city, it would have been a much bigger deal. Um, so he is very much, I would say, like a bit defensive about what's happened
to the show. Um, especially like his relationship with HBO has disintegrated a lot, and he thinks they basically have tried to distance themselves. Um, and I do think, you know, in some ways I try to understand where he was coming from. Like, I think he really is just like it was 2004, you know, like, this was what I knew. I, you know, this was my life. I spoke to Mark Wahlberg. We wrote a fun show like that was it. And now he's like, kind of frantically trying to figure out
what's happened to his show. And, you know, like, not that we need to feel bad for Doug Ellin. At the same time, he is doing a lot of like, you know, overtime trying to be like, nah, it was all 100%. All of it was satire.
Yeah. And it's like.
You know, look, man.
I it was a comment on how like, Ari was a racist or whatever.
Yes. And I was like, look, man, I love the show, you know, at the time and stuff. And I still enjoy watching it, but like, you know, all of them fucking all these girls all the time is not like a, you know, biting satire on, you know, the power of fame and being a famous actor. Like, sometimes you were just doing it because it was like fun shit to film and you knew that your audience would absolutely lap it up.
Yeah. And I kind of get his like, I get. I imagine no creator ever wants to make something that is so dated. And not only a career not only makes something that is so of its time, but is so now retrospectively often shorthand for like a red flag. Um, yeah. So I kind of get why he is on the defensive about it.
I mean.
In 20 years now, when people talk about the anniversary of this podcast will be claiming, oh, no, no, that was all satire. Don't worry about it, guys.
I already used that excuse.
Yes.
So I thought that was interesting. Um, and then basically he just kind of like, does a lot of podcasts now plays a lot of pickleball.
Um, did he ever make anything again?
Well, no. So he's kind of, uh, like, no is the answer. He's basically got a pilot, um, featuring Charlie and Martin Sheen, uh, and a bunch of the guys from entourage, but it hasn't been able to get finance yet. So, yeah, he kind of, I guess he just he kind of talks about his experiences in the industry in this new podcast he has. But yeah, he definitely has been impacted, I think, a lot by the the response to entourage probably beginning, I think, with the movie which he directed
and wrote and which did not do very well. And then kind of I guess since then the show has increasingly been, you know, viewed poorly and seems to have aged poorly. And I think that's left an imprint on him, as would anyone. Uh, but yeah, it's an interesting chat.
It's interesting how few shows like it have existed. The only show I could think of that really fell right into this space is Ballers. Do you guys watch this? Yeah.
I love the show.
I love Dwayne Johnson.
Yeah.
Dwayne Johnson, uh, John David Washington, it's executive produced by Mark Wahlberg. So some of that entourage DNA is there. And it's a similar thing. Right. It's about sports managers and and uh, the NFL a lot of party scenes, a lot of music, a little bit more updated like this came out in 2015. So it doesn't feel kind of as cringe. And, you know, a lot of discussion about like, race because this is about a lot of players who are black. It was pretty interesting. It wasn't
like that. Great. I don't think it has like a huge legacy or anything like that. But um, as I was going to say this out loud, I realized how silly it sounds, but a real noticeable, like lack of drama comedy shows about dudes hanging out together.
Thank you for that. Thank you for being a thank you for being brave enough to say it.
Well, it feels.
Weird to say that because, like, again, I don't think like, you know, my point isn't like, this is why everyone's voting for Trump. Because men don't have shows anymore. But in this space of like, beyond kind of like action, you know, and maybe like outright comedy or whatever, like the space of the dramedy where there is some ongoing kind of relationships that shift and change, and it's the dynamics of a group of men, or even if it's
a group of men interacting with like other women. There's not that many shows like that.
I don't think there are any shows like purely. Well, not that I can think of off the top of my head. I'm sure there are, and people will let us know, but I think it's more because the real world has women in it. So women are more than just, I guess, the people they have sex with. Like so I think there are shows that focus on male.
You can have a.
Show, you can have a show like girls, which focuses on men. That doesn't just reduce women to like objects of sex.
So you want the men to be the central characters.
Like, I want.
Boys, I want the show boys. Yeah.
But aren't.
They okay? Yeah.
Look.
I mean, the bear, everything revolves around.
The bear is probably. You know what? The bear is probably a good shot. The bear is a show where you see a lot of men and, like, it's actually a really good, um, a really good example of this, where it's broad, there's a whole bunch of characters from all sorts of different backgrounds and whatever. But like you do see a group of men who relate to each other and to other people in a dramatic and funny way.
That's a really good point.
Presumed innocent.
That doesn't count. Don't know if that counts.
A man and a group of men. Yeah, there's one woman.
A lot of.
Them, I feel like, are couched in very genre ways. Like. Like Breaking Bad and The Sopranos. We've talked about it like all those things come up, but they kind of smuggled in. Maybe that's because programmers know that men wouldn't watch, like a very earnest, like, entourage. But it's woke, right? I don't know what the demographic is for that. So they're like, let's have shows like Ozark and Breaking Bad
that are very gritty, justified, that sort of stuff. And then in that we'll have some really strong plotlines about men relating to each other. Honestly, this probably is why people are voting for Donald Trump. I hate to break.
It to you guys.
Well, I was reading today a really interesting story about how rare the mail reader is. 80% of book buyers in the UK and the US are women, and they the piece was linking it to kind of the Andrew Tate ification of society, where men are, you know, the kind of gains attitude. Um, I mean, I hadn't really kind of linked that before and thought that was interesting to I mean, I don't know if that's relevant to what we're talking about, but sums of how men engaged with culture.
A co-worker of ours yesterday did say that this was a show. Entourage was a show for Andrew Tates, which I thought was particularly offensive.
That is interesting.
That is really.
Offensive. All right, on to our, uh, final regular segment, Impress Your Friends, where we share something we watched, read, listen to, or otherwise consumed in culture in the past week. Uh, mine's a bit cheeky. Um, I am very excited about industry season three dropping in a couple of weeks. I think it's August 12th. I've been doing a rewatch of seasons one and two. I really like the show. It's fun. It's like called a slightly dumber mix of succession and euphoria. Like,
that's fair enough. It's set in the high powered world of finance in London. A bunch of young people get their cadetships, I guess, traineeships there. They try and like do deals and they have a lot of sex and they do a lot of drugs. It's kind of soapy. It's kind of silly. There's a lot of finance jargon. I have no idea how accurate it is. I don't really care. It's pretty cool. Um, if you're not across it at all, get onto it. It's on, uh, binge. It's an HBO show. It's on binge and get hype
in time for season three. Mel, what have you got for us?
I have a very good book. It's called Kairos, and it makes me sad that not more people are reading. Um, it won the International Booker Prize. It's by Jenny Erpenbeck and translated by Michael Hofmann. It's about this love affair between a student and a married man. There's kind of 30 years between them. They meet on a bus in East Berlin and their whole relationship, which is really destructive
and complicated relationship, um, kind of intellectually and emotionally charged. Um, and it's set against the backdrop of the collapse of kind of East Germany and the end of the the Communist dream. It's this really beautiful book. It's hard to explain. It's about power, art, culture. Um, and it's quite a bleak outlook on life. Um, but it is, uh, it's a book that's kind of it moved me in ways
that not much contemporary literature does. Um, so yeah, I think it's well worth adding to the list, and I think you would both really like it.
I love hearing you talk about books, Mel. It's very insightful and you're really passionate about it, and I get very excited every time you mention them. So thank you for that.
Thank you. As you can. Um, I'll, I'll, I'll send a copy up to you.
I think you'd have.
To buy me a book. Mel, I'm your boss. It's okay.
Yeah.
Uh, Thomas, what.
Have you got?
Just to stay on trend, my recommendation is set in the world of blood sport. Um, now, this is one that's actually kind of flown under the radar. It is a TV series. It's those about to die. Uh, are you guys across this?
Oh, the Roman Empire? Yes. Okay.
Anthony Hopkins is the guy.
Yeah, man. This is this has got big, um, Oz energy. Yeah. So. Yeah.
Tell us about it.
It's all ten episodes. So firstly, straight up it's a binge it on the weekend vibe. All ten episodes available on Prime now. And basically like, you know, obviously we're in a bit of a kind of like gladiator mood right now with Gladiator two coming. And, you know, obviously every so often we get these shows like, remember, HBO did their big Money Like Rome show years ago that they only gave.
Yeah, I loved Roman.
Two seasons two, which was a fucking crime against TV. Probably the worst decision they made since cancelling entourage. But Those about to die is basically like it's set in the world of the gladiator games and, you know, kind of in a similar way. It's like a succession meets Rome meets like almost like a ballers. Like we get the politics of the sport set against the backdrop of the Roman Empire. Basically, Anthony Hopkins plays the Emperor, who's
like very much on his last legs. He's like slowly widening. And yet as he's kind of like dying wish he wants to reinvigorate these, you know, the gladiator games. And when I first got told about this, I was like, oh, this sounds like it has all the elements of being a stinker. Like, you know, big celebrity attached. That probably doesn't give a fuck about the project. Just another Roman show like this will just come and go that no one will ever talk about it. Watch a couple of episodes.
It is so well done. They've spent a lot of money on it. Um, like, the set dressing is incredible. Huge cast, but like, everyone gets equal billing and there's great character arcs. I really think this is the type of show that you can like. You put on one and then like before you know it, you've got bed sores because you've been there for ten hours.
Uh, great chats to him. Great episode, a lot of fun. Can't wait to find out what JD Vance thinks about Deadpool versus Wolverine. We'll talk about that next week. Uh. Take care. See you.
Then. Stay bright.
All right, cue the entourage theme song.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, My mind had been in limbo. In the memory you overflow. Wanna be your super hero? Or even if I tumble, fall. I'm okay.
This episode of The Drop was produced by Che Huang. If you enjoyed listening to today's episode of The Drop, make sure to follow us in your favorite podcast app. Leave us a review or better yet, share the episode with a friend. I'm Usman Farooqui. See you next week!