All right, let's go. Let's do it.
Hey there. I'm Osman Farooqui and this is The Drop, a culture show from the Sydney Morning Herald in The Age, where we dive into the latest in the world of pop culture and entertainment. I'm here with Thomas Mitchell and Mel Kambouris. The three of us, unlike the industry we cover every week on this show, are not on strike. In fact, quite the contrary. We're here with a very special episode of The Drop to unpack the shutdown of Hollywood.
How are we feeling about this, guys? This historic moment we're all living through?
Well, before we get into that historic moment, maybe we could talk about unpack the historic moment you're going through at the moment to which is your Barbie era.
I was I was shocked How many people because we mentioned this, I think a couple of episodes ago that I was thinking about going blonde for the Barbie premiere, the amount of people I ran into just on the street who are like, You're not blonde yet. I heard you were going to go blonde. Like, Jeez, that was just a throwaway line on a podcast. Let a guy live. No, but I did it. I bleached my hair on Friday.
I wish your barber had gone on strike.
You told me it looked great.
No, it looks good. I'm just having a very kind message.
Yeah, I've gone the full kind of platinum blonde. I think I look. I look like, you know, almost exactly like Ryan Gosling in the Barbie film.
Now, you haven't done this before. Was it Barbie that inspired you to do it again?
Yes, I done it before. How long? We're going to talk about my hair. But I have I have.
Put aside 20.
Minutes. I did spend I remember at least a year blonde previously. And then I don't know how much experience you guys have with with dyeing or bleaching your hair, but your hair can get quite, you know, frizzy and sort of dead after a while if you don't take care of it. So I thought, I'm just going to let it grow out and just come back to its natural, you know, healthy state. But then I thought, Oh, the Bobby premiere is a great opportunity to do it again.
I always I always liked it. I thought it was fun and let's go. So I have.
No you do actually suited. I have been like threatening this for a long time because I like the idea of being someone that can like peroxide. Their hair would look terrible. I did like I did blonde tips. We've talked about this before. When I was in year eight. Same time I was wearing a shell necklace. Very confusing time for me. But yes, sadly, I cannot pull off the peroxide blonde.
You should go for it. My. My thing about hair is you can always change it. It will always grow back. I think you should lean into your blonde era. And then it would be quite fun having both of you blonde as well.
Blondes do have more fun, as they say.
In my humble experience. That is. That is true. Even over the last couple of days since I've been blonde, that feels like the case. But let's put a pin in the Bobby chat. Not because I don't want to talk about my hair for for much longer, but because we will be back later this week, on Thursday. We Is this a big day for us? Not only are we doing the special strike pod, but tonight the three of us are going to see Bobby at the Australian premiere.
Then on Tuesday night, we're going to see Oppenheimer at the Australian premiere. It's big, big few days, so we're going to be podcasting about those two big form releases that'll be out on Thursday. But today we're here to break down the Hollywood strike, and there's a lot to delve into in terms of why it's happening, what's happening now, what it means for the future of TV and film production, how long it could go on for and what exactly
the strike is over. But before we kind of unpack each of those things one by one, I want to ask you, Thomas and Mel, when when you guys you cover this industry like I do every single day here at the Herald and The Age, when did you realize this was going to be an actual big deal that changed the work that we do day to day?
I can give you like a pretty specific answer to the minute. At about 3:37 a.m. on Friday morning. Not that I was awake at this time, but yeah, I guess the 3:37 a.m. on Friday, I received an email from the publicist of Jeremy Allen White from the Bet who we had. I did a conversation with him last year for the season one and I was trying to chat to him for season two and we were kind
of in the midst of setting that up. And then she emailed me and said, You know, unfortunately Jeremy can no longer do this because the strike means that promotional activities fall under all the things they can't do.
And we know how excited you were about you are about the bear. So this must have been quite alarming for you. Exactly.
I wanted to kind of get into him stealing my look. No, but it was pretty crazy to wake up, see this email and then be like, okay.
This this is actually happening. This this is actually happening.
And I know that we've been like probably knowing it's coming. And the writers have been on strike for months, but I mean, the actors I think has a much more tangible impact and obviously like they're much more public facing. But yeah, it was very strange to like literally wake up to the news but then also wake up to this very firsthand experience of like, okay, this interview I was setting up cannot happen because this person can't work.
Yeah, I think it was when I saw that the cast of Oppenheimer had left the screening, one of the biggest films of the year. They had been on the red carpet. And then Christopher Nolan, the director, kind of stood up in. And said, Oh, you might have noticed the actors aren't here because they've gone home to go. And right there, after they've got home to go and write their placards. I think that was a pretty big moment when realized, Oh wow, this is happening. The symbolism
of that. And then shortly after saying with you, Thomas worked with a lot of writers here who have interviews lined up for the next few months with a lot of actors for big films. And those interviews started dropping over. And there something concern about, oh, about stories.
It's going to go in the paper. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean, like we are not the the key antagonists or the key focus of the strike as journalists, but it is interesting to think about how quickly this went from being like a news event that we all clock to like, Oh, this actually tangibly impacts the work that we do every day. And Mel, you had a spectrum and we've got a big interview coming up with with
Killian Murphy, who is the lead in Oppenheimer. That was done before the strike, but kind of made me realize, oh wow, like if these things just shifted by a couple of weeks, you know, we wouldn't have had all that amazing Barbie hype that we saw because we'll talk about this in a second. But the strike doesn't just impact the production of films. It impacts, as you said, Thomas like promotional opportunities, interviews, all that sort of stuff.
It was kind of why we wanted to do this episode, I guess, to help people who maybe have been reading some of the headlines understand exactly what's going on and how long am I going for and why it will change the way that we consume culture and journalism about culture for the foreseeable future. So I thought we could start by trying to explain exactly how this process works and how we got here. I'm going to I'm going
to give it a go. But you guys know this stuff as well as I do, so feel free to jump in or add any extra bits of detail you think are relevant. There are essentially three main unions that operate in Hollywood and represent all the key actors, but that that was a really bad term because we're not just talking about actors. There is the Actors Guild, the Screen Actors Guild, which looks off to actors. There's the Writers Guild, which looks after writers, and there's the Directors Guild,
the DGA. All three of those bodies individually negotiate with this other group called the AMP, which is the Alliance of Motion Picture and Television Producers. That's essentially this umbrella org that represents the production companies. So everyone from Netflix to Amazon to Disney, NBC, all of those companies have
one big umbrella body that they negotiate under. And every few years the AMP renegotiated the collective agreement that sets things like minimum rates of pay and conditions for the actors, writers and directors. Most of the time it's a bit of a negotiation. They sign a deal and everyone's happy and we go and we get television and film. But sometimes things break down. I don't know you guys. Probably none of us were working in the industry in 2007,
but do you have any memories of that strike? That was the last time a big chunk of Hollywood was shut down because of a failure of the negotiations?
No, but I, I do remember discussion around that time about a Breaking Bad season that was cut short. And it actually, I think, fundamentally changed the plot of that show because they could only get, I think it was 7 or 8 episodes out and they couldn't end it on a cliffhanger because the season wasn't finished. So it ended on a kind of regular episode That was from 2007. I think that's what I remember.
Yeah, I remember the Breaking Bad thing too. I just remember like, I think the thing that always sticks in your mind is like the funny signs. But yeah, I remember it being like a big thing, but I don't like kind of have specific.
Yeah, neither I, I saw some videos because the writers actually have been on strike since May already. And so there was a lot of talk about the last time this happened in 2007. I was probably a bit too young to clock a lot of it all. But one of the viral clips that that came around a few months ago that's really stuck with me was all those late night talk shows, right? All the writers went on strike, but the hosts were still contractually obliged to go on
air and talk about stuff. It's really funny clip of Conan O'Brien, who was literally just like spinning his wedding ring on his desk for like 20 minutes.
That was in Blazing Saddles. All right, here we go. Susie, are you ready to time this? We're going for 41 seconds. If we do it, this will be television history. Susie, you ready to go? I'm ready. Okay. You excited, Susie? Yes. Good luck. It's not a genuine bone in her body. Are we going to try and get a good spin? If I don't? I'll start all over again. Band, I hope you're ready. Here we go. And that's a good spin. That's a good spin. Oh, yeah.
And taking shots at like the studios for not signing a deal. So I don't have any writers. I can't make any gags and the audience is like cheering and clapping him on as his wedding ring spins for like 2 or 3 minutes at a time. So yeah, as we said that the Writers Guild actually has been on strike this year since May, and that had already halted a bunch of TV and film productions. But then on Friday,
this is the big news. The Actors Guild decided to walk out, and it's the first time since 1960 that both the actors and writers have walked off the job. Quick pop quiz. Who was the president of the Screen Actors Guild in 1960 when the actors went on strike then?
Oh.
Thomas, over here.
Over here. I believe it was one Ronald Reagan. Wow.
Thomas knows his union history.
Yes. Could I? Yeah. Should we do, like, a Shakespeare quiz now or. Yeah. Yes. Ronald Reagan from, you know.
Oh, go on.
Well, Reagan From what? From what? Yeah.
Let's dig a little deeper here and see how far this.
Knowledge was going to say. He obviously he was an actor. He was like.
Well, it's an actor.
Yes. And then he became president crazy. I think.
He was governor of California in between as well, I.
Believe. Really. But any actor that just put into governor of California, didn't they?
Yeah. Arnie.
And that's it.
That's the two of them. So so first time since 1960, both the writers and actors are off the job. And as a result, basically everything has shut down, not just in Hollywood, but around the world and here in Australia as well, because there are American actors working on Australian based productions and because they can no longer work, those productions have essentially halted for the foreseeable future. Thomas You did some reporting for us last week looking at which
shows in Australia were impacted. What did you find out?
Yeah, so the biggest one probably that was impacted immediately was Apples Never Fall. So that's like a $79 million Amazon Prime series. It's based on the bestselling Liane Moriarty book. Know every book of hers just becomes a series. They're all slightly different versions of the same thing to me. But anyway.
Wow, I didn't know.
We did the that's for my that's for my.
Sorry. I had to go up and drive by shot.
To my Moriarty hate pod. Yeah, but so it's Sam Neill and Annette Bening and Alison Brie obviously all very famous actors, obviously all belong to SAG. That was meant to wrap in September. And yeah, on Thursday we got word that Annette Bening had kind of done quite a what we're told was like an impassioned speech, like, you know, almost a, oh, captain, my captain style speech where she spoke to the crew about what was happening and why it was important for her to fly home. And she
flew out back to the States on Friday morning. And I believe Alison Brie has also since left.
Well, do you know why they're flying back home? They're not just like sort of taking the opportunity to chill out here.
Well, I guess I'm I reckon I mean, you can probably read a lot into that. Maybe they're like, well, this is not going to end soon. Also, I guess if you're given the opportunity for a sudden break, maybe you want to go home and see your family and stuff. True.
Maybe they want to join the picket lines outside.
Yeah, I know that because it's kind of like a bad look optics wise. If you're like, Oh, I'll just hang out here because I'm assuming that. Well, go back to work soon.
True, True. Alison Brie You know, Papped on strike at the beach and Byron or something, maybe.
Yeah, Her and Dave Franco. Just like smashing bees at cheeky Monkeys in bar. Yeah. So they they've all since left and production halted on that. They finished shooting it. It was tools down at 5 p.m. on Friday which was the cut off in LA and also similarly Mortal Kombat two. That was like a big film that was shooting on the go, both shooting in Queensland and that was meant to wrap in August and it's since been
tools down on that. Pretty sure it stars Karl Urban from Star Trek and amongst the other host of other Australians. And so yeah, they're two of the kind of biggest current productions. There's one other production we know that is shooting with kind of an American cast. It's it's hasn't been confirmed. It's under embargo, but that will also be halted. So yeah, it's basically anything with SAG members has to cease production immediately. But we do know stuff like the
Office Australia, which was a big deal. Everyone was kind of across that the Australian spin off like that's all Australian cast and crew. So that will be going ahead. I think they're in pre-production now. So yeah, it was again like, you know, obviously it's not about our industry specifically or anything, but it's always easy to relate when
it affects you. And it was very interesting to hear it, you know, see these images of the actors on the picket line in America and see Fran Drescher giving her now famous speech and then also have these productions like being impacted here straight away. Yeah.
And I guess for listeners who also want to know what other shows are going to be affected through the combination of the writers and actors strikes, there's some really big shows that are going to be delayed. The White Lotus, I know a favorite for us. Emily in Paris, Stranger Things. Yellow Jackets, The Mandalorian, Deadpool Gladiator two, Mission Impossible. So you won't be able to get to talk to Tom Cruise again. I'll probably.
Say it at Tom's.
House. You need to ask him finally about that missing award. My favourite, Paddington. Paddington in Peru. Delayed. So some really.
There's the new Paddington movie coming.
Yeah, in Peru. He's going.
To Peru?
Yeah, he's from Peru.
Who is he? Come on. You're not.
Across this. Paddington is a refugee from Peru.
Yeah, I did not know. I mean.
Yeah, and his. And his name is actually, I think it's like post-WWII or something like that. And he's called Paddington because when he rocks up as a refugee at Paddington Station, the dumb English family can't say his name properly. They're like, Well, we'll just call you Paddington.
Oh, so this is like a classic English story where they like, we'll take him and we'll give him a better life and we'll give him.
A Wellington and a marmalade sandwich. Yeah.
And he's probably like, fucking dreaming of. I don't know, This is.
This is a problem because I don't know if you guys are following this, but the UK is kind of embroiled in some pretty intense debate around immigration policy. A lot of kind of stopped the boats rhetoric. It feels like a good time for a, you know, a narrative about Paddington. The refugee of the UK needs this to sort of reset its political debate.
I agree. And although I would say that every time is a good time for Paddington, I think you could learn a lot from Paddington Bear.
The White Lotus one is interesting. I spoke to Mike White about the writers strike a few weeks ago when he was here in Sydney and he was pretty sanguine about it because he he does know writing writers room for that show. It's just kind of him. And he was like, Well, obviously I'm going to obey the strike. But he's like, Man, I'm really tired. Like I could do with a couple of months just chilling in Thailand doing my development work. But yeah, that's a big list
of shows and films. And I think what is interesting about all of these shutdowns is we've still got TV now, right? Like this isn't sort of stopping stuff that has been produced and signed off and is about to be distributed. But in 3 to 4 months, like we could be seeing very, very little stuff that isn't reality or documentary because those are two production sort of categories that are not impacted right. From from these kinds of strikes. And it will.
Be interesting to see, too, because to be clear, these are kind of American unions and the UK has its own union equity and we obviously have our own unions here in Australia. But because of the way the global nature of television and film it, it will be interesting to see how it plays out. As in so far I've read that House of Dragons is still being shot because the contract that's under is the UK Union.
Yeah, mainly a mainly British kind of crew. But there's some speculation that that's like a little bit dodgy, like the idea that there's not a single American SAG actor or writer on that show doesn't totally make sense to me.
Yeah, that's what I mean. And so it'll be interesting to see how those kind of cross country shows, which are heaps of them play out. Like we have seen it already here in Australia with some of them. But surely there'll be a stack more that are filming elsewhere that are going to be pulled as well.
Thomas You mentioned Fran Drescher inspiring speech. I thought this might be an opportunity to talk about her for a second. So we mentioned Ronald Reagan was the president of the Screen Actors Guild in 1960. The current president of the Screen Actors Guild is Fran Drescher, who most people know from the 90s sitcom The Nanny. And her speech was pretty extraordinary. I think all three of us were. I quite moved by it. Let's let's listen to a little bit of it.
What we are saying, you cannot change the business model as much as it has changed and not expect the contract to change, too. We're not going to keep doing incremental changes on a contract that no longer honors what is happening right now with this business model that was foisted upon us. What are we doing moving around furniture on the Titanic? It's crazy. So the jig is up amp. We stand tall. You have to wake up and smell the coffee.
We are. Yeah. Pretty strong stuff. Did you like the Titanic reference?
I love that. I mean, I love a topical Titanic reference. And also, I mean, given Ronald Reagan's trajectory, are we looking at like a Fran 2040 run for the White House?
I think I've had you, but you have established.
I've noticed a pattern.
Funny you should bring that up. Right. Because a lot of people who maybe don't follow the ins and outs of Screen Actors Guild union bureaucracies, unlike me, were a bit surprised to see the nanny like sort of lead the charge on this. But Fran Drescher in a number of like different television and film stories has been like a very strong advocate for like, unionism. There's an episode of the Nanny called The Strike where Fran refuses to cross a picket line that Mr. Sheffield is like dragging
her through. And it's not like an actor strike. It's busboys like waiters in this hotel that are going on strike.
Fine. You're embarrassing me. Now come along. I can't.
My hands. A blouse would roll over in her grave, which was paid for by her union.
How would you please come in before this turns into a spectacle? Would you go?
Why would you please. And she's like.
My mom told me to never, ever cross a picket line. And then Mr. Sheffield tries to, like, drag her across the picket line. She gets photographed. It's like in The New York Times, it becomes this big scandal, and Mr. Sheffield becomes, like, completely pilloried, cancelled, if you will, for dragging his nanny across the picket line. And then, I don't know, Have either of you guys seen 1997 Beautician and the Beast?
I'm not.
No, no.
I had no idea you were such a friend, Drescher I'm a.
I'm a friend. Drescher Ahead. Well, this is why she's got great, great views on these things. So beautician and the beast, she plays a beautician, somehow gets confused for being like, a teacher and gets sort of hired by this dictator in this fake Eastern European country to, I think, educate his kids seriously.
Anything goes. In the 90s plot was just like.
She ends up visiting like a steel mine and she asks the workers like when they get to have their break and they're like, what break? And she's like, What? Talk to your union. And they're like, What's a union? And then she ends up unionizing all of these steelworkers. So very franchise has been smuggling all this wacky, pro-union stuff, you know, for a long, long time. And you mentioned
whether she might be running for president. I had a little back in the days of when I was very involved in Twitter, had a bit of an interaction with Fran on Twitter where she was posting some pretty bolshie stuff. I think during the the Bernie Hillary primary campaign, 2015, 2016. And I said, Fran, you know, like, are we going to see you maybe run for president one day? And she said she said, watch this space. So there you go.
Really? Yeah. 2014 Osmond with the scoop.
You already had the scoop then.
I was very happy with that and I'm glad to be able to talk about it seven years later. Now, with you guys, I'm.
Really glad to see the nanny back in the limelight. I thought her speech was very rousing. I really liked when she evoked the French Revolution. You know, the people break down the gates of a sigh and then it's over.
I thought that was great. Also, I really enjoyed I don't know if you saw, but before she gave this speech, she'd been criticized because she had been off in Italy at a Dolce and Gabbana show, and she was photographed with Kim Kardashian and people were criticizing her for being offered a fashion show when she should have been, you know, when it was thought she should have been negotiating the deal.
And she came back with some great lines about that, too, about how she didn't want to be running around on the cobblestones in high heels, how it was all work, how it wasn't a selfie. Yeah. So, Fran, friends having a moment?
It's pretty fun. I thought that I thought that that moment, like, I think that really rammed it home for a lot of people. And like you said, it was and I don't think many people knew that she. Fran Drescher like who obviously we all know from the nanny is involved. But it was like this incredible speech. And, you know, the way we consume culture, the Internet, just like packaged it up and repurposed it and like smashed it out
there so everyone saw it. And yeah, so I think like everyone that I've spoken to, that's kind of not as like in to the business has been like, Oh yeah, like the Fran thing was pretty cool. So that seems to be this like kind of flashpoint.
Yeah, I feel like campaigns like this need a moment. And that was the momentum. That was the moment to launch the momentum.
It's the most fascinating thing about like a labor dispute is by its nature, not the most exciting kind of topic of choice. And, you know, if it was another category of workers in another country that went on strike, I don't know if it would have gripped global attention the way this has. But we're talking about the biggest names in the world. We're talking about people who literally act and hold our attention for a living. And we're talking about a character and an actress as iconic as
Fran Drescher giving this kind of speech. It I was a bit surprised to see it across like all my feeds from all sorts of like regular people who don't work in the industry. And I think because we'll get into this when we talk about some of the issues but like. Friends speech went beyond acting and writing like she was very explicit in being like the world doesn't
feel right at the moment. Like Wall Street's making a lot of money and lots of regular people are having their jobs and livelihoods threatened by technology and all this kind of really intense change. And this is a moment for us to all pay attention. So let's talk about some of those key issues because. I feel like understanding the sticking points is important to understanding what is really
happening in Hollywood right now. I feel like what's really interesting is that the last couple of times there's been an actor's strike. It's revolved around technology and essentially the industry going through technological change and how actors are fighting to be properly compensated for that. In that 1960 strike that we've mentioned a couple of times, the key sticking point was actually TV. TV had been around at that
stage for like a decade. And actors were saying, Well, when my show gets aired on television and the network makes a bunch of money on it from selling ads, I should get a portion of that money. And they do now. And it's like a bedrock of how the television and acting industries work. When the actors went on strike in the 1980s, it was about VHS tapes which had just started to become a thing. And they're like, Well, when they sell my tape for $25, I should get
a cut of that money. And they do in 2007. This is so interesting because the Writers Guild, you read like kind of the the sticking points then and you read the marketing and the kind of propaganda from both sides. And they're talking about like the Internet, but they're talking about it in this way that they're not quite sure. They're like, our writers are being asked to write shows
for websites. And like The Office was this one where the Office did this series of like off season online shorts and the writers weren't getting paid proper rates for it. And they're like, You know what? Maybe like down the track we might be doing a fair bit of like writing for the Internet. Maybe we should get proper payment for that. And that's what the strike was about. And they won essentially. And now that's when 99% of us
watch things is on streaming platforms. Now, the two big issues are around AI, which which is a complicated one that will delve into and residuals from streaming. Let's start with this streaming thing, because I think that's the most, I guess like in line with these other issues that feels like the evolution of how the industry is going. Thomas One of the key issues has been the lack of transparency around like what is being watched and therefore
what writers and actors should get compensated for. Can you talk us through a bit like about those problems in what the actors are fighting for right now?
Yeah. So this is like you said, it kind of is one of the main, I guess, bones of contention. It's, it's basically a viewership based residual. So everyone gets a residual like as baked into your contract when you're on a show. But the actors are arguing that they should. Should the show be a success on streaming? There should be a further residual that is paid to reflect that success. Unfortunately, as has always been the way with streaming platforms, they
refuse to share data. They don't ever say, You know, how many people are watching, how many hours are being watched. It's like they're very, very private when it comes to the success of a show. Obviously, that doesn't mean we
don't know what successful because we do. And so essentially what the Sag-aftra members have proposed is that they they have proposed using data from Parrot Analytics, which is a company that kind of like aggregates a bunch of data pools in, you know, search queries, fan sites, social media engagement downloads, and can kind of paint a picture of how popular a show is.
Sort of the next best thing to having the actual ratings from the companies themselves.
Exactly. Exactly. And they've basically gone to the studios and said, look, we'll use parrot analytics. We know how popular shows are and we can figure out the viewership based residuals off that. The studios have said absolutely no to parrot analytics, of course, like the Sag-aftra saying that we're happy to do it off your data, should you share it, but they refuse to. So basically, like that's kind of this real main sticking point because you've got you know, there's so many examples.
I know that the creator of Squid Game comes out and talks about all the time like he had one of the most popular shows over the last decade, and he made no extra money despite creating a phenomenon for Netflix who have made so much money off squid game and squid game merchandise and the IP of squid game. So yeah, it really is this, you know, it's I'm
not surprised. They're kind of like sticking to their guns on this one because it's insane that that you know you can make the same for a squid game as you might make for something that does nowhere near as well And.
Obviously back in the day it would have been based on TV ratings because you often hear about in the case of friends, by the end of that series, they were getting $1 million in.
Episode. Yeah, they could negotiate every year. They were like, Oh, okay, these are published every day. We see how many people watch it. And that gave them leverage.
Exactly. So yeah, that, that I think will be a really, really big one. And it'll be interesting because, you know, there are lots of rumors and I know we've all been kind of engaging in the content around this strike since it happened, but it seems like there were the commonly accepted narrative is that most of the major studios were kind of willing to bend. And it may be there were two of the big kind of platforms that
were absolutely refusing to share their data. I mean, I think if you were to read between the lines, it might be easy to figure out who that could be. But yeah, I it looks like this is one that neither side will want to bend on. So it'll be to see what happens.
Yeah, it feels like what is really going on here is like the reckoning of the modern entertainment industry. Like these big old school. Companies like Warner Brothers, NBC, they you know, obviously they always like fought for the right to make as much profit as possible, but they had a pretty well understood distribution model. They worked with actors in movies for decades and decades ahead, relationships, the negotiated
fees they played by the rules. Then they had TV arms and they played by the rules when it came to ratings, Then the rise of things like Netflix and Amazon and Disney completely upended that entire landscape, not just in terms of how you made and watched television, but also, I guess, things like keeping viewer statistics secret so you have all the power, you know, you know, there are all these stories that writers and actors tell you when they go to pitch to a streaming platform. And there's
these references to the amorphous algorithm, right? And it's not just like how many people watched a show. It's like, how long do they watch a show for? Do they watch many episodes of that show? All these really opaque things that give these huge companies all of the control and reduce writers and actors to kind of competing while they're blindfolded with one arm tied around their back. And I think for a long time, everyone was okay to live with that because there was so much money like
like the money was being thrown around. Huge showrunners were being signed to like 200, $300 million. Overall deals. But we've seen in the last kind of 12 months that start to fall apart, like there's a bit of a bust in this previous kind of what was a streaming boom. The bubbles popped a little bit and the money is drying up. And so actors and writers are saying, okay,
we have to get what we can now. The other issue, the other side to this thing and we should say there's a bunch of different issues to do with minimum rates to pay and other things. But the technology side of it is the big one. The other one is a AI that came up with the Writers Guild as well. Mel, But it seems to be a big part of what the actors are fighting for. What's the what's the key fault line when it comes to artificial intelligence?
Yeah. So as you were saying before, when we were looking at the other strikes, actors have been quite forward looking when it comes to protecting their rights into the future. So they want more protections and safeguards about how AI is used. And it is important to say the AI is already used in films. Harrison Ford in Indiana Jones being De-aged synthesize voices, visual effects. But obviously as AI gets more advanced and more available, it's being increasingly used
and we're seeing this pop up already. Sarah Silverman had a copyright infringement lawsuit that she filed against OpenAI and Meta saying that they were kind of breaching her copyright by training their systems, using their firms. And other actors are already writing clauses about AI into their contracts. Keanu Reeves has one that bans studios from digitally editing him. So it's already a pressing issue, but obviously it's going
to become an increasingly relevant one. And I think the contracts that these unions are signing a three years, so they kind of need to do it now or they're going to miss the opportunity.
So obviously, like because the thing I found interesting about this is like, obviously if you're a Keanu Reeves, you're going to have like, I mean, you're Keanu Reeves, you've got the best management team. Like no studio is going to whatever you put in your contract. They'll probably just go along with like, you're going to be fine. But it is like obviously and this is the whole like wider problem with the strike. Like it's obviously about not the top 2%, but like the other 98% or 90%
or whatever. And like especially for the background actors and stuff, like I think they talk about it, it's like, you know, a day rate for a background actor in Hollywood typically is like $135 American a day. And, you know, essentially they could now pay you that. Once you sign the contract, you've got zero leverage to be able to be like, oh, well, wait a minute, I don't want that to be part
of my deal. And then instead of what could be potentially ten days work as an extra, you've just had one and you'll never get another day again because they can just continually use your likeness in perpetuity.
Yeah, that's it. And I think Duncan Crab Tree Island, who is the chief negotiator for SAG.
Right name, by the way. I know, I know Derek.
I feel like maybe the middle name was like a bit of a glow up when he got to Hollywood. He's like, I need something.
It feels like a last name I might generate. Yeah, he did come out and say that. And again, this is obviously only one side of the negotiation that the studios had proposed that background actors could be able to get scanned and then their company, the companies they're working for, could just continue to to reuse that likeness of them over and over and over again. And it sounds a bit kind of far fetched, the idea that you would always have the same background actors in every single show
you watch. But yeah, I mean.
I think this is the this is the this is the thing that like. Everything that we're talking about sort of sounds a little bit surreal, right? Like Hollywood, big studios want to use AI to capture background actors to then just like never have to practice again. But I guarantee you, like you said, Mel, this is already being used in other capacities now. And it almost makes it's almost completely irrational. Like just leave aside personal views on
like who's on the right side in this debate. Of course, a giant company is going to try and minimize its costs and it's going to harness the latest technology to try to do that. Like that is a completely rational thing for them to try and do. And similarly, it makes total sense for the union to say, hang on a second, like AI is coming and we want to work with you on it, but can we at least
talk about how we're probably compensated for it? And I think the fact that from what the union has said, that the AMP has just been like, no, this is a red line issue, suggests that they think while the rest of us are just like playing around on ChatGPT and making jokes, the big companies are like, we are going to make so much money from this technology. This is a key issue for us.
Yeah, the fact that they were so staunch on it makes you like they've obviously can see the dollar signs. And like with this one, we absolutely will not negotiate on. I mean, everyone that I know uses ChatGPT to write like funny poems in the style of like certain people, whatever.
But this is like proper issue. But then also, like, I guess it becomes a concern of with the bigger stars, like you basically give your likeness over and they can use you for like promotional materials, stuff you would normally be paid for. But also then like you become this kind of weird instrument for the studio and you kind of don't have any say over what they use it for.
And it does feel like that first episode in Black Mirror. Yeah, yeah.
Yeah. Joan is awful. I know. It really is. Like, yeah, it's pretty terrifying.
And for the writers, so the actors are particularly concerned about their likeness and their representation being used, but the writers as well, they're worried about how I could be used to write and finish scripts, craft outlines do dialogue, so essentially that I would ingest their work and then be able to parrot it, which I think is a is a reasonable fear. And we know we know from our own organization and industry that media companies are looking into how I could be used to do certain jobs.
That's one of the bits of this I find so interesting. Like Fran in her speech, again, she said, we're all going to be in jeopardy of being replaced by machines, which so sort of sounds like a line from the Terminator. But I think but I think what like this is almost like the canary in the coal mine. Like like the actors are blowing up these huge issues around AI and like just technology and transparency. But this is kind of coming across society and I think it's slowly dawning
on people that this is worth talking about. Those are really great. New York Times, like in a little Critics note section that compared every worker in the world to a background actor. Essentially, they said all of us faced the same risk. Every time that there's a technological or cultural shift that happens, companies will rewrite the terms of employment to their advantage, citing financial pressures while paying their
top executives tens and hundreds of millions of dollars. Like this is not just something that is happening in Hollywood, but as we said a couple of times, we're all paying attention because it's Margot Robbie and, you know, and big name stars who are who are talking about it. So basically a bunch of issues, the key ones coming down to AI and the lack of data transparency in what people are viewing. The agreement that currently exists was due to expire on July 1st. They managed to get
a couple of weeks extra to try and negotiate. Nothing seemingly was done in that time except Bobby. The Bobby marketing machine kind of fell between the window of July 1st and July 12th. I don't know whether or not that was like a sweetheart deal. We've just got to get this movie out. This movie is going to save Hollywood. Let's get it out and then we can go on strike. So they kind of agree and then they do go
on strike. And the response, like Mel, you said that when you realized that it was at the Oppenheimer red carpet, that was so fascinating because I was in London and they were all in the red carpet and they all left the red cop. It's like Matt Damon, Cillian Murphy, Emily Blunt, really fascinating. Margot Robbie was asked about it on the red carpet. She gave a pretty sharp statement, you know, supporting the union, supporting the strike.
That might be a strike tonight. Are you in support of the strike and absolutely do be prepared to strike as well.
Yeah, absolutely. No, I very much in support of all the unions and I'm a part of SAG, so I would absolutely.
Stand by that. This is like. It's really big. Like we're talking about over 100,000 actors, but not all of those are like Margot Robbie and and Killian Murphy, which is also another interesting dynamic to this. Like, did those guys get the attention? But 99% of the people in the picket lines are people we probably have never seen of a heard of.
Yeah. And I think that I think that's probably the biggest problem this strike faces like again even talking to people over the weekend I think the knee jerk response because they see these very famous, very rich people on the picket lines and they're the face of it. People like struggle to empathize. They're like, oh, what is like, you know, like Keanu Reeves going to be okay? What do we need to do a fucking Kickstarter for Margot?
Robbie Like, obviously not. But like, you know, Matt Damon put it really well on the Oppenheimer red carpet right before they walked. He was like, Obviously, this is not about me is unbelievably important.
We got to protect the people who are kind of on the margins. And 26,000 bucks a year is what you have to make to get your health insurance. And and there are a lot of people who residual payments or what carry them across that threshold. And and if if those residual payments dry up, so does their health care. And that's absolutely unacceptable.
And obviously, the cost of living crisis is happening all over the world. Like, you know, it is about these people who are like struggling to pay their bills and all of these things impact. And especially, you know, like if you are a jobbing actor on an okay show like you, you live off residuals. Like that's how you make your money, that's how you pay your rent. So I do think that that is your guy.
Your guy, Glen Powell from Top Gun basically said that, right?
Yeah. Well, that's the thing. Like, he's a real interesting one. He tweeted about it. You know, he's super famous now. We all know him. He knows my friend Sydney. But then he goes on this.
Filmed before the strike, by the way. Very, very glad.
Thank God. I know. But he was on this show. This is like a Ryan Murphy show, Scream Queens. It was like pretty popular. And like, he cites that as like that show in the residuals he made that like, kept him afloat. And then lo and behold, he's actually a really good actor. And then now he's famous. But like,
that's how the system works. And you need to be able to have this ecosystem that supports people while they're still figuring themselves out because that's who are going to be the stars, be the next Margot.
Robbie Yeah, and I think when you look at the attention that some of these stars, Margot and Cillian Murphy, are bringing to the strike, if you compare it to the writers strike, which has been going on since May, and I don't really think that made huge news over here and definitely didn't garner the global attention that the actor's strike has garnered. It's because they have these very
recognizable faces. So I think, you know them speaking out, even though they obviously have their own teams negotiating their contracts for them and they have all the power in many of those situations, they are necessary, I think, to keep the momentum going for the strike.
Yeah. And I guess the good the good thing, if anyone's worried at least about the optics of like actors, high profile actors complaining or crying poor, nothing can be worse than the optics of Bob Iger. Melanie's close personal.
Friends at Sun Valley, Idaho. Right. With all the billionaires? Yes.
He was commenting on the strike from a billionaires retreat with Tim Cook and the rest of like the very rich few and basically saying like, this is the worst time for this to happen. And, you know, it's very disruptive. I'm trying to get a fucking jaw massage back here. And yeah. And you know, I've heard interviews across the weekend from the SAG team and Duncan Crabtree Island saying like, we would have loved Bob to have come to the negotiations. Like he sent some of the lower downs at Disney.
He wasn't even there. And then to come out to take a five minutes out of his billionaire retreat to comment on it was just terrible. Terrible for the studios.
Yeah. I feel like the rhetoric that is coming out of the studios is very strong handed. Deadline Had they were quoting an executive as saying something essentially like.
Let them die on the vine. Yeah, we'll let them lose their houses.
Lose their houses, we'll outlast them.
I feel like the timing of that story was particularly bad. It was like these anonymous quotes from executives, you know, saying, we're going to starve them out. Like we're going to watch them strike until they can't pay their mortgages and like, they're made homeless. And that came out like three days before the Screen Actors Guild was deciding whether to go on strike or not. And maybe they thought the execs that that would scare people. But I think all it
did was like galvanize the industry. And people said, you guys are crooks. Ron Perlman, who, you know, actor of Sons of Anarchy and, you know, a few different movies and things have been around for a while. He he I don't know if you saw his video where he went on like he went on Instagram or Twitter and he was like, there's many ways people can lose their homes.
They can lose their homes when they strike or they can lose their homes because we will find out who these executives are and we'll find out where they live. And we will, like kick them out of their homes and burn them down.
There's a lot of ways to lose your house. You wish that on people. You wish that families starve while you're making 27 fucking million dollars a year for creating nothing. Be careful, motherfucker. Be really careful.
Like, to your point, Thomas, of whose side are people on the optics of, like, Matt Damon versus a regular actor? Most people, I think, like, have more of an affinity for the Hollywood actors they like than they do for faceless CEOs who run like Jeff. But he's also like no normal person, I think is like, I really like Matt Damon's movies, but I think Jeff Bezos has a point that no.
I literally no one I know except Mel loves Bob Iger.
So he just helps me resolve my tech issues.
But, you know, yes, you're right. No, no one empathizes with the studio heads. And I mean, I think it was kind of perfect that he was at this kind of weird, I don't know, orgy for the ultra wealthy. Yeah.
So I guess this is the challenge with with any kind of strike, right? Because you're right that the top tier A-list Hollywood actors, they're not the ones who have the most to benefit from the strike. They're doing it for the rest of the industry. But they also kind of have the least to lose because they can live in their mansions even if they don't work for a few months or a year. But there's a lot of people who are losing a lot of money in this strike.
Like even in Australia, there's now hundreds if not thousands of crew who haven't made the decision to go on strike, but have essentially been stood down because 1 or 2 Hollywood actors are off. There's also the fact, as you mentioned at the start of this chat, Thomas, like actors can't promote shows, so there's no interviews happening. Red carpets are being impacted, film festivals, which employ lots of people. Toronto Film Festival might not go ahead because they might
not be stars. That award shows like the Emmys could be postponed and cancelled. This is going to have a significant impact, not just in the sense that we can't watch things, but in terms of economic impact, in terms of people not having jobs, that sort of thing. How long do you think this can go on and do you think the longer it goes on, it shifts the dynamic of like what side people are on?
Yeah, I think when you look at it historically, they do go out for a very long time, like 1960 when your friend, my boy Ron taught us was in charge.
What are your thoughts on his policies? Thomas Ronald Reagan I'm actually.
Just about to do a part on that tomorrow.
So he's he's like hurriedly.
But let me just say, I don't know if you guys are familiar with Reaganomics.
What can you can you hear the question? Can you break it down for us?
Uh, dance.
This man.
This is worse than when you call me Jonah Hill.
I'm, like, squirming watching you, though, actually, now. Well, while we've been waylaid onto another subject, I wanted to ask if you were getting residuals for your starring role because you were in a short film, right?
I was, yeah. I mean, it was all Australian crew. So we can we can chuck it up on on the socials.
Just before we move on from Reagan. Are you pro anti Reagan? Can you just give us like that take.
I'm anti Reagan.
Y'all right?
I don't want to say Mel.
I did I did completely waylay you as you were discussing. You know, you guys bullied me.
I was happy for the distraction.
Yeah. This is your favorite thing.
How how long how long was this strike? In 1960.
It went for 21. The writers were off for 21 weeks and the actors were for six. But for everything I've read around this, they're saying like they probably won't be back till September at the earliest.
Yeah. Our guy Brian Cox from Succession was like, it could go on to the end of the year. It's a big deal.
Oh, I loved that interview where he appeared. It was I kind of felt like, Oh, you're back. It was so nice. But yeah, I think it will be interesting to see because obviously there's heaps of attention and hype around it at the moment and a lot of media coverage. But I wonder if four weeks down the track if we're still going to be talking about it. And that's when I guess those actors and writers who who don't have a lot of money are really going to be suffering.
And it's going to be hard, I think, to keep up the momentum once it kind of fades out of public interest if it does.
Yeah, it'd be interesting. I spoke to some crew members over the weekend that were employed on both Mortal Kombat to and Apple's Never before, and they all had the same quite funny response, which was pretty much at 5 p.m. on Friday, they started texting everyone they know that works in reality TV for work. So that's pretty grim. Yeah, but I mean, that could be a reality. And they seem to think that like all of their contacts in LA were like, not even a chance. It's over before
the end of September. Wow. So, you know, they're preparing for like a couple of months at least. I mean, I really don't know. It very much seems like neither side is going to blink first. And they seem very far away on very core issues to both sides. So, you know, Carol Lombardi, who's the head of the AMP, she was quite forthright in saying that like they won't talk with SAG while they're on strike, which I don't really understand how that's supposed to work because.
You're never going to end it. I mean, business has always said that they're always like, while they're on strike, they're being obstinate and then just hope that they blink. But obviously there will be a conversation at some point, right? Even if it's like behind closed doors. I want to ask you guys about like how this could be different to 2007. Obviously, we didn't have streaming then. We had
a handful of networks that made TV. When you shut that down, you shut down television and you just don't have movies and TV for a while, and that starts to cost. Works money because they need content to sell ads against. But in the current ecosystem where there is so much in the pipeline, there's already too much for us to watch. And on top of that, you've got an increasingly globalized industry. You've got Netflix that could weather this storm by just running like 100 K dramas, right?
Or like doing a million Bridgerton series or the Crown season 55 or whatever. It seems like there's a real challenge here, like the Hollywood actors can can go on strike. But could the streamers just whether it end up breaking the union that way?
Yeah, I think they could. I think there is that risk there because the streamers do have a global network to draw upon. So there's no shortage of content. And also we have named some of the big shows that are coming up, but there's a heat that will be in post-production that is still going to hit our screens
over the next few months. So I think it is a risk for the actors, whereas back in the back in the day when you could kind of, you know, we were all watching TV, it would be way more noticeable when those shows were dropping out of the schedule. But now I kind of think the streams are just going to keep refreshing their home pages and we might
not notice it. I was going to ask, though, I wonder, do you think that the streamers will invest more in local production, i.e. will see more Australian productions being made in the next kind of or commissioned for the next year?
Our colleague Callum Jasmine, who's the media writer here at the Herald and The Age, had had an interesting story about this today. He was speaking to a few different producers and streamers and they were saying it's a little bit too early, like to tell whether that will happen. But reading between the lines, like I think streamers like Netflix, like Amazon, like Disney Plus have been building up production teams. Kia and I think they've got the infrastructure to do that.
So depending on how long this goes, I think it would make sense for them to look to other markets. And I think something like Australia, like you've got Korean drama, you've got like Netflix and India, you've got all these things, but a market like Australia where there's already a lot of overlap, right? And it's English language and these sorts of things. I think it does make sense. I think
this goes on for a while. I think a bunch of stuff might get greenlit here that previously wouldn't have or what they might do is just buy up Australian stuff for the states. Like maybe the Office Australia becomes like Amazon's key thing that comes.
Out or like Netflix suddenly is like, Oh, we're going to go, you know, like, let's really get cracking on the next season of Heartbreak High because it was such a big global hit and you know, we've got nothing else coming. So yeah, maybe this is a good time to get my Reagan show greenlit.
You you mentioned reality TV, Thomas. I mean, that was one of the big consequences of the writers strike. I don't think people necessarily are aware of how much of reality TV exists because nothing else could be made. And that has changed everything. It's cheaper to make. You can make it without, you know, unions, all that sort of stuff. We're probably going to get so much more of it now as well, aren't we?
Well, for sure. And you know, people often like cite reality TV as the end of days and oh, my God. But like, yeah, prepare for more of that because it's yeah, it is easy to make. It requires little to no talent under different agreements and they can just pump it out often just in a studio or wherever. So yeah. And now you have a whole like the trickle down effect of everyone in the industry desperate for work, like
hair and makeup and crew and production and everything. So yeah, you'll have this ready made kind of like ecosystem ready to work. And no doubt the studios and streamers will begin to pump out more of that and they can turn shows around so quickly, though.
I hope it shows because I do think that the appetite for reality shows has fallen off quite substantially. Definitely in Australia. When we look at the ratings of reality shows over.
Here, yeah, things like The Bachelor just don't hit anymore.
Yeah, Married at First Sight is really great.
Oh, always the company man.
I mean, it is. It's a good.
Show. It actually is good. My favorite show. No, but the one thing the one thing I would say in the flip side to all this, like it is a very different time. And I think, you know, 15 years ago or whatever, the strike was much more impactful in our day to day. But on the flip side, the rise of social media and everything means like the the amount of like pressure that these stars can put on and keep it in the news feed constantly is a massive bonus.
I think that's a really good point, Thomas. I mean, even like we sent each other the clip of Margot Robbie, you know, at some Barbie event, like Margot Robbie is one of the biggest stars in the world right now because of all the hype around Barbie. She is like, you know, very photogenic. She looks great. She's very exciting and bubbly. And she gets asked about stuff and she says, I support labor. I support unions, I support the strike.
And that goes viral on Instagram. And people have been there's a clip of her from, I think like 10 or 15 years ago when she was on Neighbours and she was part of Al Union, the MEAA Media Entertainment Arts Alliance.
Sometimes issues come up with our payslips and stuff and over time there's just technical things that for someone who's new to acting, you don't know what what it's about or what you're. Actually entitled to and and being a part of the union, I can then go to our union representative who was Alan Fletcher at work. Dr. Carl and just make sure that I'm not being ripped off.
And it's good to know that there are things they should be abiding by and stuff we are entitled to to make sure we get correct pay or breaks or overtime.
There's a clip where people have mashed that up with her most recent comments. And it's like this Barbie is a union Barbie and it's getting millions, like tens of millions of views. And I think that is something that
has never happened before. And I'm really interested to see not just the impact of that in terms of public opinion on the Hollywood strike, but how many, like regular people have maybe never thought about like labor issues or unions or strikes are like, whoa, Margot Robbie, who's like the hot chick from The Wolf of Wall Street, is like telling me to go on strike to protect myself against AI and evil Wall Street companies. It's pretty fascinating moment in history.
It's like the Big Short all over again. Just like.
Yeah, exactly. In the bathtub.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But I think and that's the important thing. Like there's a famous quote when you can't make them see the light, make them feel the heat. That's President Ronald Reagan said that.
Sorry. Where did you. Are you. Hang on. I'm looking. I'm on.
Brainy quote. It's actually a really appropriate quote.
That is fitting. It's a great quote for this month.
Yes. Thank you. But yeah, that's you will see these A-listers start to galvanize now. And it will be interesting, like especially for this stuff coming up, like we're in an Emmy voting season now. Normally there's like so much like for your consideration, like they can't use social media. We're just gonna have this full blackout. It's going to be very, very strange. And I think I still think, you know, the regular civilians out there probably don't really
appreciate how big a deal it is. It even took all of us a little while to be like, oh, actually, like as you start to like, realize the layers to it. Give it two weeks, we'll give it a month. And I think everyone will really start to, you know, they'll be like, it just looks like blackout. I mean, nothing to talk about. No news. Yeah.
When Bobby finally comes out and people realize Margot, Robbie cannot talk about it, she can't talk about the reaction to Bobby. That will be quite a significant moment, I think. I think that'll be the next big check point for all of this stuff. Yeah.
Or even just thinking about the Bobby campaign, what it would have been like if you minus all of that cast and crew talking about it, you know, their global tour. So many of the stories about Bobby were about the off screen and off set kind of antics, and you just would have had none of that, though I do feel sad because I really enjoy that the writers haven't got as much attention because they do have very good placards.
But there was one I saw on the picket line that was like, without writers you get dot, dot, dot the idle.
Yeah, that was great.
So I do think they do have very good, good placards but just haven't been able to come through as much.
Well, I reckon that's a good place to leave it. I feel like we did a pretty decent job of covering the ins and outs. I, I doubt that it'll be the last time we talk about this. It will certainly impact the show in a way like we had Jeremy Allen White hopefully lined up to do it. You know, we interview high profile actors here, pretty regularly and you
probably won't hear that for a while. But as mentioned at the top of the show, we're very excited to be back this Thursday with our Bobby and Oppenheimer Breakdown and maybe any kind of union updates that occur. But Thomas, thank you. Mel, thank you.
Tell me, did you have more fun as a blonde?
I'm in the funnest era of my life right now.
Well, I'm off to just brush up on my Reaganomics. I'll be your biggest.
Hit next week.
The wealth trickles down, Thomas. Just remember that.
Something slowing the growth of government spending.
This episode of The Drop was produced by Chai Wong. If you enjoyed listening to today's episode of The Drop, make sure to follow us in your favorite podcast app. Leave us a review or better yet, share it with a friend. I'm Osman Farooqui. See you next week.