Hey, I'm Osman Farooqui and this is The Drop, a weekly culture show from the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age, where we dive into the latest in the world of pop culture and entertainment. I mean, with Thomas Mitchell and Meg Watson. How you going, pals? Good.
Happy to be back again.
Very excited to have you back again. Mel is still off, but I can assure you she's on the mend. Hopefully back with us soon. Thomas, how are you doing?
Yeah, I'm pretty good. Um, yeah. That hand, foot and mouth really gets you, Mel. So everyone's thinking of you and, uh. No, I'm very good. You know, it's been a big week already. A week that started at, like, you know, 1 p.m. on Sunday as we geared up for the Logies, an event we both love and work on consistently. Osman.
It's crazy. If you told me ten years ago the amount of time and energy I would spend on planning our coverage of the Logies, doing our coverage of the Logies, and then reflecting on our coverage of the Logies, I wouldn't have believed you, but that is that is going to be a big part of our show today.
If you had told me ten years ago when I was at the Logies, that I would still be talking about the Logies ten years later, I probably would have asked you to choke me out. So.
Um. Well, they were on Sunday. Uh, we were covering the awards. And traditionally here on this podcast, we do a bit of analysis and have a bit of a conversation about what the awards reveal, I guess, about the state of Australian television, where things are heading. We're going
to get into that later on in this episode. We're also going to dissect, I think, what I feel comfortable in calling a very incredible and heart racing second episode of Industry Season three, maybe one of my favorite episodes of television this year, in fact. Yeah, we'll lay all of that out a bit later on as well. But first, there's some news around some kind of breaking news as we're recording this on Wednesday morning, J.Lo and Ben Affleck have divorced again.
The newsroom is scrambling.
We're all a bit late to this recording, trying to get all our angles covered on this one. I feel like celeb separation news. Not normally the kind of thing that we discuss, but the relationship between these two sort of transcends. Just like gossip stuff. These guys have been absolute pillars of pop culture for decades now. Want to talk a little bit about, you know, the last couple of years they've had and where it all goes, but
maybe before. I'm interested to get your guys take on exactly why we have, throughout the years, put so much stock in the Bennifer dynamic. Meg, do you ever do you have a take?
Yeah, I mean, they're one of the foundational celebrity couples. I think they kind of almost invented the idea of the celebrity couple. They came together at the same time that tabloid media was booming, and it was them that everyone latched on to. It was I mean, I learned about their relationship before I learned about relationships.
Wow, wow.
They I think. I think that's true, though. You know, probably you project so much feelings on these people and in an age of like tabloid magazine covers and paparazzi shots, you knew everything about them at the time and for their relationship and having an engagement called off. It's like that was celebrity drama that fueled so much of our lives back then. And then obviously with them getting back together,
that also brought so much nostalgia for people. And it was so there was this romantic idea of, you know, maybe the person you were with 20 years ago was the right person, but it was the wrong time and you couldn't help but latch on to it. So, I mean, it's sad. It's very sad to see that as a total lie. Yeah, I'm sad I they were so happy. Right.
Like, well, I mean, not that happy, I guess.
Well, yeah, I know that. I'm sad that it.
Means we definitely won't get Jilly two now.
I know. Which is sad.
Yeah, it is, it is weird. Like, I kind of agree in that, you know, normally, like celebs splitting up or whatever, kind of like they come and go on the radar and that's it. But this one, I think
people always were keen on. And definitely I think Meg is right in that, you know, the fact that they got back together 20 years later for our generation, you know, people in their the aging millennials, we're so obsessed with, you know, like looking back at our own youth and being nostalgic for the early 2000 that the kind of Bennifer reunion was like such a good avenue for that. And it brought back so much of, you know, their
early courting. And then they had the pictures of them on the boat and it was all just like it all fit into the current narrative. But yeah, I mean, they were one of the original kind of like, you know, how we're all obsessed for a while with, like the portmanteau couples of, like, sticking them together. It was like them and Brangelina. And so like I have fond memories of them as a couple. And yeah, I'm very sad that once again, um, they've broken up.
Well, it's interesting you mentioned the portmanteau because Bennifer, which is what they were dubbed, is the first celebrity portmanteau.
That's what I mean. Yeah, they.
Yeah, they sort of coined it. You're right. I mean.
I don't think they.
Did. Sorry, sorry.
They, they being the tabloid media.
They were famously hounded by the press, and it was one.
Of the reasons I think JLo said that, you know.
The ghouls running TMZ and us or whatever, they they coined it.
It's funny because they were only together initially for a couple of years, like they met on the set of is it, do we say Gigli or Gigli? What do we say? Gili. Gili.
Gili Gili. I thought it was Gili.
I don't know, maybe this is why it performs so badly. No one knew how to talk about it.
Well, they.
Met on the set of that movie that we don't know how to pronounce properly, and then they sort of dated for a while. They were in the Jenny from the block.
Music video, iconic together, sick video from the.
Block. And then it was all kind of done and dusted after that, but probably, I guess, something about that time that you guys have both just discussed. It was the peak era of if you are in this sphere of being covered by celebrity mags, the internet was really becoming a thing. Then virality was becoming a thing. You just permeated every part of culture. So you kind of got in on the ground floor, and even years and years, years later, uh Bennifer was still this kind of talking point.
And we've talked a lot on this show about our kind of desire for nostalgia or a sense of our generation in particular, and some people a little bit older, a little bit younger to hark back to a time of, you know, things felt a bit lower stakes and a bit more fun, and pop culture felt like it was at its peak. And so these guys actually getting back together was this real physical manifestation of that, more so than, you know, Netflix rebooting TV shows from that era. There's
actually two people decided to get together. I think, like you said, Meg, there's a whole kind of social psychological element to it as well, where people are like, oh, that's sad. That like it didn't work out. And they went on to have other relationships and have kids and stuff, but maybe they were each other's one that got away. And maybe we, you know, if someone else has that in their life, it could work out for them. I guess the news out of this week is that two bad guys.
Yeah, there's a reason why it didn't work. Is dead.
I there is something. I mean, Ben Affleck seems like divorced is his natural state. Like that does feel right. Something has rebalanced. Well, he's kind of.
Become the sad man of the internet. There's obviously that famous photo of him when he's like, you know, smoking and just looking really exhausted and fed up. And it's become like, you know, the meme for when you've had a bad day or whatever. It's actually a great photo. Like it's great credit to that.
All that content and everything looks kind of.
Looks still, looks kind of jacked in that.
You know, he's still.
He's like he's a good looking man. I'm all for Ben Affleck. I text the other day I was watching good Will hunting. It's a fucking great movie. It's a great it's a great movie.
It's a great.
Film. Um, and I think I said to you specifically, I wish I had, like, a Robin Williams figure in my life. Anyway, this is my own stuff to go through. This is.
Getting very.
Personal.
Am I not that? Am I the. Am I the will hunting in your life?
Yeah. You you actually. And the way you're dressed today,
you do kind of feel like my therapist or something. Um, but. Yeah, like he and, you know, like, he's always, like all those pictures of him, like, carrying coffees and stuff, like, he he really has had a great second life on the internet as well as being a great actor, so I think anything that ever happens with him, and especially now that he has returned to his default state as like the disgruntled divorcee, this will just be great for him.
Now we'll have another like year of Ben Affleck content until he, like, inevitably starts dating someone completely insane, like probably Sydney Sweeney or something. And then that'll be a whole new story.
I will say that I don't know if all that content is great for him. Him getting stalked, looking depressed, having Dunkin Donuts every day.
Um, should we evaluate, like the creative output in the last year or so? Because they've been pretty prolific, both of them. Uh, Ben has started up this production company with with Matt Damon, and, uh, J.Lo has this movie deal with, I think first Netflix and then Amazon. Uh, so Ben starred in air, the movie about Nike's deal with Michael Jordan. Pretty good movie. I thought, like, pretty fun,
maybe a little bit underrated, if anything. He also was in a movie called hypnotic, which I did not watch.
I have not seen that you guys are cross hypnotic.
I have not seen that.
No idea what hypnotic is.
Good for him though. Great. He's out there.
And he produced the recent Apple TV movie with Casey Affleck and Matt Damon, The Instigators, which I watch, which is, like, not great. It's not terrible. It's sort of like a heist film, but it's his classic. You know, if this movie came out ten years ago, it would have been a really good movie. Matt Damon and Casey Affleck would have been in a good movie, but now Apple just
pays everyone a bunch of money to make something. So you see this title card that is like it's Casey Affleck and Matt Damon, produced by Ben Affleck, and it's kind of a heist. You want to watch it and you do. And it's pretty, pretty, pretty lame.
That felt like a movie where, like in the group chat, they were like, hey, we haven't caught up in ages.
Like, should we.
Should we make that dumb idea we've been talking about? Apple boys.
Are back. The boys.
Are back. Um, he's just finished filming The Accountant two. I'm not across the accountant universe. You guys, the accountant heads.
I am not.
Well, the accountant two is actually crucial to the narrative of the Bennifer demise. Because is it really? Well, yes, because when J.Lo was chairing the Met Gala this year, and that was kind of one of the big moments where people were like, ooh, what's going on? Because Ben Affleck didn't go and it's obviously a big deal. You know, she was like chairing the Met Gala, but his excuse was, oh no, I'm filming The Accountant two. I definitely can't get on a plane and come back to support you.
My beautiful wife, who I love, um, because I'm filming this really important movie, The Accountant two. And everyone was like, oh, that's not good enough.
Not true. That's not.
True. Yeah. If you were in like, you know, if you were in like the puppy dog honeymoon phase of your relationship, you could be filming fucking good Will hunting two and you would come back. So yeah, that was kind of like, okay, that's not really. You know, we don't really buy that. I have seen the first accountant and I'm surprised they're making a second one, but yeah.
Also where were they filming? It's an American movie, right?
Yeah. I think he was overseas though.
Oh I see oh, this is interesting. Ben Affleck stars as Christian Wolff, an autistic Accountant who launders money for some of the most dangerous criminals in the world. Jon Bernthal is Christian's brother. He operates a security car. J.K. Simmons is in this movie. I like all of those people. I think I've got to watch The Accountant movies. As for J.Lo, during their marriage, she made a shotgun wedding,
which I think had like a really great trailer. If you guys remember this, where it's like, starts like as a fun rom com.
You got your gift. It's your something borrowed brings you good luck. Except for Uncle Greg, who ended up decapitated on that forklift. But that's not the knives fault.
Oh.
And then next minute JLo's got a shotgun and is like trying to shoot kidnappers and assassins.
Or pirates outside. And they took everybody hostage.
The movie was not very good, I would say.
I didn't mind, like. I mean, it's a great trash movie. You know, if you sit down and it's a streaming film and you've had a couple drinks on a Friday night with some friends, it's fun.
Yeah, that's fair, that's fair.
It's better than I didn't. I really didn't like that. George Clooney, Julia Roberts. Ticket to.
Paradise.
Ticket to Paradise on an island. But it's sort of in that.
Just holding that against it. No, no, no.
I'm just saying it's in that same sort of category. I guess it's like I didn't watch it. But if you're kind of hungover on a Sunday or you're bored or.
Like, you know how I famously compare every movie to Ticket to Paradise? Well.
It just angers me so much.
Well, I'm mad because people who hate anyone but you and therefore are really mad at me for saying it's a good movie. All seem to love Ticket to Paradise and I just don't understand that to me.
No, they're in the same universe for sure.
To me, they're inverse. One is good and one is bad, and it's not the one everyone thinks that's. That's my plug again for anyone but you. Nearly 12 months on from the movie's release, um, she also starred in The Mother, which I have not seen.
I've never even heard of that.
Never heard of that.
I feel like Shotgun.
Wedding was probably the highlight of what she's been up to.
Well, and then there was she's obviously like one of those Netflix deals. So she did Atlas as well, I think, you know, like she's done all a bunch of like kind of really forgettable films. But the moment again where she I feel like she people were like, oh, this is another crazy JLo thing was the weird like documentary that Ben Affleck produced.
Yeah, this is me now, that was sort of inspired by her reunion with Ben.
I know what they say about me. About hopeless romantics that we're weak but I'm not weak.
And all of her celebrity friends played kind of gods and masters of the universe. It was. It was strange. I actually respected the swing that movie took. It was sort of crazy, but it was just JLo being like, I want to make some kind of fun, arty, long music video type thing. Good on it. And it's her.
Vibe, I guess. Like, she's always been pretty out there and, like, pretty cringe in many ways. And she's just owning it.
But you would say that 1234567, eight projects between the two of them over the course of their second marriage, maybe like one of them, air is good and worth recommending, but maybe that's fine because obviously the relationship was about them and not about making great content. So maybe it's actually good that they made bad stuff because they were really prioritising spending time with each other and trying to make it work.
Except.
At the Met Gala, I guess, except the.
Met Gala.
I know, but then we do want like, I don't know, is it okay for or can we be happy for two celebrities to be in love if it impacts their collective?
Yeah, ultimately, I care more about these people as creatives who make stuff I want to consume, I kind of don't really care about their personal happiness. Like, you're an artist. Your job is to destroy your life and your livelihood, to make stuff for us to watch and discuss, right? That's how it works.
Yeah, I'm kind of the same. Like, shout out.
To all the artists listening.
Yeah, like, I mean, if it means Ben Affleck is sad, but we get another Argo. I'm okay with.
That.
Crazy that Ben Affleck has a best director Oscar, that is.
He's actually.
A talented guy like.
Martin Scorsese. He doesn't know.
He's he's under I would say he's actually underrated because he's done everything. He's like, well, he's I think Ben.
Affleck is a great actor and a great writer and a great director. I completely agree with you.
And also but the thing I like about it is, even though he does all have all those things and he's like, but he'll also be like, I'm going to be Batman. And and like, the worst ever Batman in the worst ever Batman films. Like, he's just.
Yeah.
We should just do a special Ben Affleck episode. Man, his career is crazy. He's is crazy.
It is. It is so crazy.
Do one of those shameless, you know, bonus episodes. And we're just sort of go back and unpack. Shout out shameless as usual. Other fun TV news. Michaela Coel, the creative mind behind I May Destroy You, which was one of my favorite shows of the past few years, has finally announced her new project, you guys. Fans of I May Destroy You remember that show?
Yeah, yeah, it destroyed me for sure.
It was pretty affecting. It was really, really amazing television, but very intense. Um, her new show is called First Day on Earth, and the official synopsis is, uh, British novelist Henry, played by Michaela Coel, is stuck, works dried up, her relationships going nowhere. So when she's offered a job on a film in Ghana, her parents homeland, where her estranged father lives, she can't resist the chance to reconnect
with him and the country of her heritage. It's an executive produced by succession creator Jesse Armstrong and co-produced by HBO with an A24 credit in there as well. I feel like this is designed in a lab for people like us. Uh, the vibes are high on this one.
Yeah, I know. I mean, yeah, every with each reveal, I was like, oh, well, the algorithms really got me this time.
You're the man with the with the brain meme exploding. Yeah.
Exactly. Um, it's it's funny because, like, I've been really, I think everyone who, you know, loved succession has been waiting to see what Jesse Armstrong would do next, and I kind of figured he wouldn't. It wasn't like he was going to go in and like, you know, be a show runner on another show and create another series. So I guess something like this makes sense. But yeah, I mean, it has all the elements to be great, which means it'll probably end up being awful, but I can't wait to watch it.
That's the hard.
Thing because it's just so much hype behind her now. And like, that's a great thing. And it means she's able to take on projects that are cool and original and interesting and devote time to doing it. But the pressure that must come with that, I kind of want to just zone out completely of any news about this. I don't even want to watch trailers and just go in fresh because it's just too much.
Yeah, I think that's that's a really good point. I mean, I think what is good is that I May Destroy You was so good and received so much critical acclaim. I'm sure Michaela Cole was offered enormous sums of money to just follow something up straight away. And we've talked about this before, that it's just generally never quite as good.
That sophomore thing where you spent so long writing the project you really believe in, you pour your heart and soul into it, and then you do your follow up, which you kind of scramble to do this doesn't start filming until next year, so it probably isn't going to come out for maybe another 18 months. 24 months. That's like six years between I May Destroy You and this new show. I think it's great that she's actually even though I'm sort of would love another great show from her.
It's cool that she's just taking her time and is like, I want to find the right project. I want to take my time to write stuff. So I think there are good indications here. So looking forward to that one.
How devastating do you think it's going to be? Because she's a she's really funny as well obviously.
I mean this.
This were now moving into like, you know, parent issues, uh, sort of third culture kid disconnected from their homeland, the colonial.
History.
This one's going to hit, uh, the struggles in the media industry. This is going to have, um, a lot of emotional resonance. All right. Time to talk about the Logies. As I mentioned, Thomas and I covered the event on Sunday. The ceremony went for five hours. It's crazy to me that the lodges are longer than the Oscars.
Why is that? Very genuinely like what's going on?
We're going to talk about that. We're going to talk about that because there are definitely some suggestions I've got for edits that they could make. Thomas was there even longer. He was doing the red carpet for a few hours before.
I kept tuning in to the live blogs and everything. You're still going? It's like midnight. Trapped in the media room.
It got increasingly more like frantic and unhinged. The posts, I think. But yeah.
Um. What? I mean, maybe we'll start with this. Thomas. Why don't you give us a bit of a vibe check? How was the night? How did it play out for you? And what sort of temperature check did you get on the state of Australian television?
Yeah, it was. It was a strange one. I thought it was the second year that it's kind of relocated to Sydney. And I think in a weird way, where the Logies are held has a kind of flow on effect. Um, the. Was that the darling in Sydney? Like the hotel and pretty much from the get go, you know, you get into the red carpet at like 330. All the stars walk down and that's all filmed and stuff. And then the broadcast doesn't start until later, but pretty, pretty quickly.
I was like, okay, there's a lot less media here this year. Um, like, you know, you all kind of get shuffled into these little pens and stuff, and it felt like it felt like to me, anyway, that there was a lot less media. And at the same time, they felt like there was just less people, like less celebrities walking the carpet. And I think that is like a purposeful thing. The room that they held it in
Sydney is smaller. So you don't have like, you know, in years gone by, you have the, you know, the reality stars and often they're the people that kind of make a bit of buzz on the carpet because they wear something outrageous, they don't really care. And that creates like a flow on effect. Whereas this year that's not not really the case. They're inviting they are inviting less people to the Logies each year. So I guess that
makes it feel different. And then once you kind of get in there like, you know, as you said, it was that was like one of the longest Logies in years. It was even longer than last year's, which ran like four hours, 28 minutes. Um, so that's like pretty crazy, I think. You know, it's the first year that they've
changed the categories. So everyone I think thought it was going to be shorter because rather than having the most popular and most outstanding categories, they all were condensed into best. So everyone thought it was going to be a bit more tight this year. And in fact it like bled out. So I think it was over five hours by the time it eventually, you know, the gold was given out at the end of the night, which is an incredibly
long broadcast. But generally I think, and we'll get into this, the vibe that I took away and that lots of people were talking about in the media room and as we, you know, walk to get our respective Ubers at 2 a.m. or whatever was that, it definitely felt like a changing of the guard. Um, you know, the Logies are now being broadcast on seven, but they're always broadcast on basically one of the three main commercial networks in Australia, seven, 9 or 10. It's it kind of goes between 9
and 7. But it felt like even though the Logies are historically a celebration of free to air TV and, you know, all the stars, they're free to air faces and the presenters are, you know, different faces from the networks It felt like the big thing that everyone cared about this year was like Boy Swallows universe and the success of streaming shows and the, you know, Lost Flowers of Alice Hart and and obviously the huge success of
Boy Swallows Universe. And that just felt like people were like, okay, it's weird now that we even though the lodges have a home on free to air and that's what their history is all about, really. That's where the focus is now. And and yeah, to me it definitely felt like jarring in the way that the relevancy of free to air is probably at its absolute lowest. And yet we still have these awards that kind of champion that and but they almost struggling to contain the excitement around streaming.
How good to have someone who's been going to the lodges for a decade to provide us that level of analysis, I will say I'm really I'm really glad you sort of covered both the mechanics of of the actual ceremony and how all that works. I think that is an interesting conversation. And the more interesting, I guess, clues we're getting about where TV is going in Australia. Meg, you asked the question, you know, why does it go for so long? It is fascinating that there are less categories
than ever before, but it went on for longer. And I mean, the ratings are pretty high this year. I think it was actually one of the highest ratings since 2016. So at certain points, a lot of people did pay attention. But I think still, there's no reason for these ceremonies to be longer than something like the Oscars. And I think ultimately it's kind of self-indulgence on the part of people in the industry in putting together the awards and
not really thinking about the audience. I think one example of that is Rebecca Gibney was inducted into the Hall of Fame. Like, Good on Rebecca Gibney. We all love Rebecca Gibney. Deserving entry into the Hall of Fame, the the entire segment that was about her being inducted, which included speeches from her colleagues, included like a clips reel included. Her son speaking about her multiple times included. Her giving a speech went for nearly 25 minutes. That's like more
than 10% of the whole time of these awards. It just doesn't need to happen. Like that. And then there's the classic thing of you have 30s to give a speech. The music plays you off. The music didn't really play anyone off this year, but people gave speeches that went on for a long time. Multiple people gave speeches, and it's sometimes it's nice to see it, but I think if ultimately it all just builds up where you're getting the Gold Logie announced after midnight on a Sunday. Like,
who's watching that? Who is that for? How is that helping promote Australian TV? You also have there's always some musical performances, right? This time around it was James Bay was the big international UK artist. He had like a big hit ten years ago. Good on him. He didn't get wheeled out to like 1130. It's like, what's the point of having a huge international star if that's obviously being done, to try to get like families to watch and tune into the Logies? No one's watching by 1130.
So it's a couple of weird decisions like that that don't make sense to me.
Yeah, and it is a shame because I mean, as you said, Thomas, free to air television is getting watched less and less every year. And it needs a big boost. And I mean Australian shows on streaming networks need a boost as well. As much as they're getting a better audience than free to air, they're still lost in a sea of content where you don't even know it's Australian.
Sometimes it's not foregrounded in certain ways, and so events like the Logies actually have this great opportunity to focus attention on what Australia has produced over the past year. What's the best show that we have made? Who are the upcoming talents? But if it's just going to be this long, bloated thing that people aren't even watching or aware of, then what is the point? Is it just for the people inside the room? And if so, I mean, it's not going to have much of an ongoing impact.
I think that's a really good point. I think ultimately that was kind of the conclusion I took away as well, that most of this ceremony is for people inside the room and people in the industry. When the whole point of a televised event is that it's this opportunity to showcase a bunch of great Australian stuff that people might not be across and celebrate it. I want to talk
a bit about the winners and sort of what that reveals. Thomas, you you made the point that it felt like Uh, significant kind of pivot that, you know, this is the beginning of the era where the streamers, you know, are really part of it. You know, Netflix won the most awards, largely not exclusively, thanks to Boy Swallows Universe. I'm interested in talking about that for a second, because we discussed before the awards the way that the voting and judging
process had shifted. So now it's a combination of a panel of judges voting, public votes and audience data. And I find it really interesting that even though there were a lot of shows from streamers that were nominated, the only actual streamer that won any awards was Netflix, which is far and away the biggest streaming platform in this country.
And I wonder whether an inadvertent result of that change is it's basically impossible for a show on, like Paramount+ or Amazon Prime to win an award when they're up against Netflix, because 20% of the award is based on your viewership data. And if a show like Boy Swallows Universe and Heartbreak High, those shows get millions and millions of viewers. There might be a better show on a
smaller streamer, but it just gets totally blasted out. Was there any kind of conversation around the total dominance of Netflix this year?
No, I think I think you raise a good point, but I think because it's the first year that the change has come in that that will probably be an increasingly big talking point, like as the years go by, if we keep going down this road where, you know, whatever Netflix, Australian commissions keep cleaning up the Logies, then there will probably have to be a conversation around, well, okay, like you've given 20% weighting of the best category to
audience data. And Netflix has, you know, five times the amount of subscribers, as Disney does in Australia or Paramount+ or binge or whatever. They'll probably have to look at that. But yeah, I think, you know, this year there wasn't that didn't seem to be a thing people were talking about. People were just like, wow, Netflix is killing it with Boy Swallows Universe. And that show was a huge success. I was kind of surprised that The Lost Flowers of
Alice Hart didn't win more. Or win anything, I think because, like, you know, that show really obviously Sigourney Weaver, you know, was the lead. She was nominated but didn't win. But you know, like that got really good reviews.
I imagine beating Sigourney Weaver at the Logies is pretty stoked I don't know.
Yes, I think Sam Pang kind of mentioned, you know, she'd won all these other awards and like, yeah, she must be really excited to get her Logie. But I think it was just a really funny night because it kind of revealed the glaring issue in Australian TV that we already kind of know. But like free to air networks just do not invest in local drama. And local drama is and drama generally is what most people watch.
So even though, you know, like there's still a big audience for free to air and, you know, it's still a pretty significant audience for reality TV shows and stuff like, you know, comedy, entertainment and the Bruins and hard quizzes and stuff. But the way people build relationships, I think, with actors who they watch on series, is very different
to the relationship you have with a reality contestant. And so we live in a time where free to air networks basically only put to their resources into reality shows because they're cheap and they rate well enough. But then you get to a night like the Logies, and the chasm is so obvious, because it's like all the drama that people watch and the, you know, the, the identities
that they have a real relationship with are coming from streamers. So, like, you saw it with the way everyone embraced Felix Cameron or, um, you know, like the again, like Lost Flowers of Alice Hart. And then because like, it's such a common complaint for people to be like, oh, the Logies are irrelevant, it's because they tune in and they just see these people. They don't really watch because not everyone really watches reality TV. And so yeah, that for me was the biggest takeaway.
It was like, wow, this refusal kind of from like seven, nine and ten to properly invest in local drama is becoming so obvious on awards night. And then you have these two like it's like there's two different things going
on in awards night. It's like the free to air commercial networks clapping themselves on the back for the stuff they do and then having to acknowledge that, yeah, okay, most people in the country are actually watching streaming and, you know the millions of people that have watched Boy Swallows universe?
Yeah, I think no commercial free to air network won a single acting category this time around across comedy and drama. And to add to that excellent point you made about drama. I think the same applies to children's television. The out of the nominees this year, five of the six were from the ABC and the. And the sixth is Eddie's Little Homies, which is a co-pro between NITV, a publicly funded broadcaster, and Netflix. This is not good. This is
really not good. It's not a great result for Australian television.
Yeah, but I mean, do we see that changing in the current environment? I don't think these commercial networks have any money to invest in scripted drama or comedy. I mean, it takes a lot more. That's why they invest in panel shows and things that are quite easy and quick to produce. Um, with the state of the way things are right now, I don't see it changing. I think it will just be a total streaming takeover eventually.
Yeah. And historically, a big part of the reason why networks have invested in it is because there were government rules that were more stringent than they are now to force them to do it. I mean, I would love to live in a world where after the logis, I don't know, the government sits down and networks it down and say, cool, what does this like the conversation we're having? Like, what does this tell us about where things are going? What do we need to do? And you know, maybe
I'm naive. I have no idea what is going on in the corridors of power in Canberra. Perhaps that conversation is happening, but the fact that we've been talking about these logis on this podcast now for like three years, and we just keep having a very similar discussion, suggests that things are still a little bit broken.
It's been a big talking point with children's TV for a long time, and there's a lot of lobbying going on in that space because, I mean, a place like channel ten used to make a lot of children's TV, and it's crazy that you see a success like Bluey, like literally the biggest show in the world practically. It's up there with literally not even just children's content. The most popular show in the world.
Absolutely.
How can the commercial networks not justify being part of that? It's not even that expensive to produce, really. You just need to invest in a good creative team who can back their work and look at how far it's come in. Just a few years. Really?
Yeah. And if you have a success like that, that can then subsidize so much other stuff, you make 100%.
Yeah.
Um, we should talk about the Gold Logie. Thomas, this was a really exciting result.
For.
You. Your good friend, Larry Emdur.
Yeah. Uh, yeah. Larry. Happy for Larry. We worked together a few years ago at the morning show. Uh, and I think, again, it was kind of funny like that, sensing the general vibe from the organization on the night was very much like, again, this is only my opinion. It seemed like they were like, oh, God, we really need Larry to win, because it was basically between him and Robert Irwin. And of course, there were lots of jokes that Robert Irwin's been on TV for two minutes.
He's only 19 or 20 or whatever he is. And so, like for him to have, if he had edged out Larry Emdur, who is a, you know, TV veteran, he's hosted a million shows, he's been on TV for 40 years, would have been a kind of uphill battle for the Logies to climb in terms of defending itself. So I think everyone was happy for Larry, um, to win. And, you know, he gave a funny speech he committed to his on air tattoo.
I just remembered, um, I did say that if I won this during the week, did I? I did say I was so convinced that I wasn't going to win this, that I said that if I did win it, I would have all the nominees initials tattooed on my ass live tomorrow morning. So.
But yeah. But again, like, that's what I think was so funny in that, you know, that was the Gold Logie is obviously like the big award, the most popular personality on Australian TV. That is not like these new categories. You know, it's exclusive public voting. So seven, who is the new broadcast partner was able to lobby massively for Larry and they did and he won. And he deserves it. That's like no issue for me. But I just thought it was interesting that even though that's the big, you know,
moment of the night, it is the gold. It felt like to me the next day at least, people that I was speaking to and stuff I was reading, it was really all about Boy Swallows universe and the cute moments from that and Felix Cameron really, you know, like heartfelt and nice acceptance speeches and Trent Dalton and like, it just felt like the, you know, the kind of soul of the logis. But then the actual what people wanted to talk about no longer marry up.
That's a really good point. I think a really smart observation. I think I think you're right. I feel like the gold now feels a little bit out of step with what else is going on. I feel like it's quite different to the 90s and 2000 when, you know, when Lisa McCune was winning, it was because that show was winning and Blue Heelers was winning. Like all the gold winners tended to come out of extremely popular commercial drama or sort of comedy and lifestyle sort of shows.
And it just still feels like it is a it is a strange award when you really think about it. Like, you know, at the Oscars, like we get to the end of the night, it's like, who's going to win Best Picture and the Logies? It's like the Gold Logie who out of a field that includes actors and presenters and morning show hosts and reality show hosts, like all these people who have nothing to do with each other, who is going to be voted the best of this thing.
And it doesn't really. It's just odd. I think in 2024 to have like the big award being so mixed and confused, like, yeah.
And acting and actors are like, I think Asher Keddie was the only actor and she was.
Like the last actress to win it. And that was like 2013, I think. Yeah.
Wow. How interesting.
It's strange. What that what that metric is in the Gold Logie race. Because when you accept actors and morning show presenters, is it the best acting performance? Is it the most likable person off screen? Like what? How are we judging this? Just vibes.
Yeah, well that's the thing. Like for Asher Keddie this year, like, technically she was nominated for strife that um, show on binge about, you know, like the Mia Freedman show and which has just been greenlit for second season. Um, but like, you know, it basically it's really like, oh, Asher Keddie is really popular. And she was on a show this year and she's so popular. So like, she's going to be nominated for gold. Yeah, it's a very it is it is a metric, I think, that struggles increasingly to
keep up with like 2024. And, you know, what constitutes award ceremonies and what they should be rewarding.
Uh, we didn't mention Sam Pang. He hosted again. I feel like he's pretty comfortable in that role. He's kind of like, um, you know, Ricky Gervais doing the Golden Globes all the time. It sort of feels like that's his gig forever, I don't think.
I wonder how he feels about that comparison.
Yeah, but what did.
You guys think? Because I felt like in the room, last year's opening monologue hit way harder.
I think you're right. I think it was. He was a breath of fresh air and his gags were a bit sharper. I think he did a good job, but he seemed a little bit like half hearted, if I'm honest. Like maybe a little bit flat. He's like, I'm going to make these jokes. I know they're land, but I don't feel as excited about this as I did last time. Maybe that's partly because the room's a bit smaller. It's harder to vibe off it. I can't really think of anyone who'd be better than him. I mean, it's funny,
Tony Armstrong could probably do a good job. I'd say. It'd be fun to maybe have co-hosts the Oscars and Emmys and stuff. Kind of do that. But Pang's pretty good at it, so I'm happy for.
Him to keep going. I think he's good.
Yeah. No, I think so too. I think it's a tough gig. And I mean, like, there was lots of material for him to work with, and I feel like he touched on all of the, you know, respective scandals for each network pretty smartly. But yeah, all in all, I think, you know, it's like if he can just get the ceremony down to like 2.5 hours, everyone literally, if they can get it down to under three hours, I think people would be like amazing. Like our bar is so low for the Logies.
And here's the other thing, right? The ratings were big, but the ratings are also a measure of your average performance across the five hours. So if they get it down to three hours, the ratings actually go up on paper, which makes the ceremony look like a bigger success and gets people more excited about it.
It makes people.
More likely to watch it as well because, I mean, truly, people are just tuning out and waiting for the TikTok clips the next morning, right?
Exactly, exactly. I mean, we pitched this every year, Thomas, but just call us.
I know I've been I've been waiting to write the Logies for ten years, so.
Yeah, I mean, there's there's fewer people in this country who have as much knowledge of the Logies and care as much about them, and lots of experience in producing television and just understanding what makes good content as you. Thomas. So I'm.
Thomas Mitchell.
For the gold.
Yeah.
Why not? How do I.
Get. All right. Let's talk about industry.
So I'm sure you've all been programmed to expect something radical. But what I have here for you today, it really isn't you at all. Join us in the ground floor of what is going to be a spectacular journey. Not my words.
Well, I said it last week, but like, I think without a doubt, fast becoming my favourite show of the year. Episode two. I mean, this is fucking sick television This show is wild. We didn't think we wanted a character played by Kit Harington who is into water sports, which is like revealed in this episode. Uh.
And of course, by that you mean he likes being pissed on?
Correct? Correct. Just want to.
Be explicit in. Yeah.
Um, that's that's my sizzle at the top of this. For people who still haven't watched the show, that is what you're getting from industry season three. I mean, the way that this episode in particular drops you in the middle of just this real high octane, energetic, frenetic situation that I don't really understand what's going on. But I know that it's important and it's happening at a very
high pace. It doesn't relent throughout. There's so many different fascinating plots, characters, situations that that run over the course of the 50 minutes of the show. They all fit together really well. You feel exhilarated as you're watching it, and you can't wait for the next episode. It's just really bloody excellent, masterful television. What did you think about this app?
This is probably one of the best episodes of TV I've seen in a very long time. Also, you know, I haven't felt stress like this since the kind of peak of succession. I would say, um, the way like, yeah, the way the episode begins with, you know, they're about to take this company public, but there's a blackout. And like you said, there's no context. There's no, like, gently, gently. You're just like throwing into it. Um, I watched episode two with maybe what I would describe as, like, a
gentle hangover. And it was a fucking awful idea because it's so stressful, man, and really stressful. Really stressful. It's really funny because I feel like this season particularly, they've. Everything is a little bit different. Even the way they're shooting, it looks a bit grittier and everyone looks exhausted. Like Yasmin, played by Marissa Abella. They are doing such a good job. On making her look like she's just fucking fed up. Like she just she's always just looks. She's such a,
you know, she's a very good looking person. She they make her look so haggard and stuff, and everyone generally just looks like they're about to, like, have a mental breakdown.
They look like how everyone I know feels like in the world.
Just like not taking that personally. Geez.
Well, just like this. This sort of like within three years, they've crunched these stories about these people who started in this industry wide eyed, excited, like ready to go, and then just seeing the world the way that capitalism operates, the way that workplaces operate, the way the way that Covid and life after Covid and relationships and the things you turn to like drugs and alcohol to manage all
that stuff just squeezes you dry is so interesting. Like, there are so many things happening in this show.
And it is true because like, you know, they started out as like these fresh faced graduates and because I, you know, I said last week, I haven't I've been binging this show in order to like catch up to season three. So I feel so I've got like I feel carsick almost from going through like only five days ago. They were like, oh my God, these guys are beautiful and youthful and all their, you know, skin is perfect and glowing and dewy. And then they're having fun nights out.
And I could do that too And then like five days later, I binge three seasons. I'm like, oh my God, these guys are so fucked up. And they've all got drug issues and daddy issues and like, that's kind.
Of surprising.
So I'm only like four episodes into the first season, and they already seem kind of fucked up to me. So I can't wait to see how things go downhill.
Oh yeah. But it's always like.
Even when I feel like in the early seasons when they're like kind of, you know, fucked up or like having these massive benders and then like, changing their shirt in the cubicle and going into work. It was never felt like kind of heavy or sinister. It always felt a bit like, oh, you know, like, you know, this is crazy young people being crazy and young. And now it's like, you know, even when they have these big benders,
it's never like with a fun lens. It's like something they're escaping these, you know, incredible issues and their stressful job and all of their weird kind of like dynamics. And they're all none of them. There's no healthy relationship in this show.
There are two structural things this show does really well that I wanted to discuss because I think, I mean, it seems effortless, but it's such a contrast to so many other shows, and I think it's why it feels so good and so exciting and so different. I mean, one of them we touched on this last week, it's the way that the show really has just created a cast of characters and a world, and uses that as
a universe to talk about so many different things. Like we are now in this season, getting really interesting conversations about media and the links between big business and media, and who pulls the strings and how news stories can be created and just disappeared. Because you happen to meet the right person who you do a favor for. That's fascinating. That's sort of very reminiscent of where we got to with with succession as well. There's this ongoing theme in
this season about the contradictions around ethical investing. You've got these people who are saying that they're going to use the force of the economy and capitalism and investment banking to make the world a better place, and they just keep running up against the reality of what that actually means again and again. There's this ongoing throughline throughout the show, really, all three seasons about sexual assault and not just the
human ramifications of being a victim of sexual assault. But the way that structures and organizations deal with it, and who covers it for who and what consequences are. It's really interesting stuff to do with a show that's ostensibly about a bunch of young people who like to party and trade shares at a high pace. And the other thing, structurally that's really interesting is we're going week to week, which is amazing, but kind of like the last season
of succession. We're seeing it happen in real time, like every episode so far has been a day. So when you pick up again at episode two and we know that episode one kind of ended with, uh, Eric and Yasmin coming in after their big coke bender, and you're seeing the consequences of it the next week where she's, like, spinning out. She's about to throw up. He still hasn't tucked his shirt in. And it it's so interesting using that kind of frame, that time space to help us
to the point you were making. Thomas see the darkness, the grimness of you actually feel what it's like to be dealing with an IPO when you've been up all night doing cocaine with your boss. And I don't think there's any repentance coming. I don't think there's any salvation for these people. It just seems like they have made a lot of bad decisions. They've betrayed a lot of their friends. There's not much left other than their ability to deliver profit for their bosses. And if they can't
do that, what do they have? And that's a fascinating thing to explore, I think.
Yeah. And it's funny because they kind of have this, you know, they give you the alternate, I guess, reality in someone like Kenny, his character, who has such a big journey through the show. You know, when we first meet Kenny, he's all the worst things you hear about this industry. He's sexist, he's an alcoholic. He is abusive. You know, he abuses his privilege and is just awful to be around. And then his character, I feel like, has such an interesting journey in that he gets sober
and becomes like a really nice, protective guy. And then, you know, like, spoiler alert, he gets ousted and his career is over because he doesn't he can no longer play that game. And yeah I feel like it is touching on some really, really big issues and in a really smart way. And yeah, there's so many like there's so many like tiny moments in the show that I'm just like, oh, what is that telling us? It seriously
has such a succession feel for me. I'm very curious about what the fuck is going on between Eric and Yasmin now.
Yeah, Eric seems to have transferred the weird daddy relationship he had with Harper onto Yasmin, but that's kind of not her vibe. And she's got this weird Dom sub thing going on with with Henry, Mark, Kit Harington's character, Kit Harington. I got to say, pretty fun in this. It's cool seeing a guy who, you know, played that kind of hero character in in Game of Thrones and, you know, was was a lot of people's heartthrob for
a while. And he's taken a bit of a break and he's playing this kind of piece of shit who's kind of complicated and interesting and willing to kind of push things if you're a normie. Game of Thrones fan and you turn this show on and you're like, this guy's up to some freaky shit. That's pretty fun. It's pretty fun to go through.
Yeah, I mean, I like him in it. And also Sarah Goldberg from Barry. Yeah. Yeah, he's been great. I reckon like HBO, they just have a big factory of people that have been in other shows and they just go and get them. They're like, maybe let's see who's in there. Like, maybe we'll get, I don't know, like someone. Maybe we'll get Vito from The Sopranos in season four.
Vito, uh, we talked last time about, you know, the quality increased season to season. Meg, you weren't necessarily absolutely in love with season one. The interesting thing is, the ratings, like the viewership figures for season three, have been a big bump on season two. They're 60% more people watching these episodes and watching season two. So I think the kind of prediction we had about the time slot change, the hype driving people to the show is happening. I
feel like that's going to grow and grow. And I know you're only four episodes in, but I promise you it's worth sticking with.
Yeah, I mean, I don't I'm not hating it. I'm not hating it. I was watching it the other day in the other room from my partner, and he was just like, are you watching porn in there? And I was like, pretty.
Much, yeah.
Season one really leans on like sex a lot.
It sure does.
It's so funny because as well, like, you know, it's one of those shows, I've obviously come to it late and binged it and I love it. And so like naturally, my inclination is to tell people that I speak to to like watch this show. And my father in law is like a futures trader, and he's like in the business on the weekend. I'm like, I was like, he was like he often asked me for recommendations. I'm like, oh my God. Like, Paul, you have to watch industry.
It's so good. Like it's about your industry. And I gave him like the the kind of plot of it. And he was like, oh cool, we'll start watching it. And then we were walking home like my wife and I, and she's like, are you fucking serious? You're telling my dad to watch industry. Like, have you thought about what's in the first season of that show? And then like yesterday, I think her mom texted her and was like, hey, sweet, hey, hey, sweetie.
We've started watching industry. Very graphic. I was like, man. And like, you know, I'm watching this scene where like, you know, Yasmin's dad is like going down on a pregnant employee of his. I'm like, oh my God. Now my parents in law are going to be watching this at some time in the future. I have to move countries.
You see a lot of Yasmin's dad in that scene?
Yes you do. So yeah, great show, but just be careful who you recommend it to. I suppose.
Yeah. Speaking of recommendations, time for our regular Impress Your Friends segment where we share something we watched, read, listened to, or consumed in the world of culture in the past week. Meg, why don't you take it away?
Sure. Um, my recommendation is an album that's out next week. Um, Barker. She's a First Nations rapper who you might know from her debut EP that came out a couple of years ago, Black Matriarchy. Um, she kind of came up through Covid times, which is a weird time for a musician to become famous. But, um, a lot of her first tracks were kind of like protest songs. Um, did a lot of performances around kind of Black Lives Matter stuff. 2020 2021. This album is
called Big Titter and it's much more, she says. It's about like black joy. It's more like a celebration album. It's very like boppy and sunny while still being super powerful. Um I've been listening to it a lot ahead of time. It comes out next week, but it's been kind of sunny here in Melbourne. I've been playing it for my little toddlers, bopping around. They don't know swear words yet, so it works perfectly. Um, yeah, I think she's definitely
one to watch. She's going on a national tour now as well, and it's just like this great boom in indigenous hip hop recently, I think, like she just won the top award at the National Indigenous Music Awards last week. And, you know, on top of Kid Laroi and Baker Boy and all these other acts coming through, it's just like a great scene to get across now, I think.
Awesome recommendation. Big fan of Baka. I'm very excited for that album. Thank you mate. I got a music one two. Um, Lupe fiasco has an album out called Samurai Lupe for people who don't know he's from Chicago. His first two albums, Food and Liquor and the Cool, were like two of the best albums of the 2000, I reckon. Thomas, I got a feeling you're a bit of a loop. Head back in the day.
Food and liquor. I played it till I couldn't play it anymore.
Kick push kick push. He had a bunch of weird label drama and problems and kind of his career stalled for a bit. He experimented with some different genres and kind of released some decent records in the last little while, but this is easily, I think, his best project in the last ten years. It's a very jazzy, breezy record. It's only 30 minutes long. All of the tracks are
produced by his long term collaborator. Soundtrack. It's a really interesting concept in this album, so he was inspired by a line from Asif Kapadia's brilliant 2015 film Amy about Amy Winehouse, where she talked about how she felt like a samurai and a battle rapper. And Lupe has taken that idea and is kind of rapping from the perspective of Amy Winehouse. If she was a battle rapper and
a samurai, which sounds wild, but it's really interesting. It's an exploration of what it means to be an artist, the toll that takes, the challenges you know he's faced and discusses all of Amy's kind of well-publicised issues as well. So thematically, it's very rich and very interesting, but just kind of musically and sonically, it's a really nice, interesting listen and it's great to see someone with his experience and his skills kind of get back to the top
of his game. So check it out. Lupe fiasco samurai.
Yes, I'm definitely.
Lupe fiasco. Blogspot.com.
I feel like.
That signed off every.
Track. It really.
Did. It really did. All those mixtapes he had. Um, Thomas, what have you got?
Uh, yes. Mine is actually a long read this week. Um, how do you guys feel about baseball?
I have watched Moneyball. Um, and I don't think we can replace Giambi, but I think we can recreate him in the aggregate.
Well, I guess the most important question is, how does Moneyball compare to Ticket to Paradise?
Significantly better. I don't know heaps about baseball, but I'm interested in sport. What have you got for us? Well, this.
Is. I don't really know about baseball either, but I've been kind of obsessed with Shohei Ohtani, the Japanese kind of baseball sensation.
Who is? Oh, yeah.
Oh, yeah.
This guy in baseball terms, like a bit of a unicorn in that he pitches and bats. It's it's like almost unheard of. He basically, you know, at the end of last year signed an $800 million contract, which is 80% back ended. He moved from the angels to the Dodgers. And he's getting paid like $720 million of that contract in the last two years of his life.
It's like a ten year amount of money.
It's insane. But what I think is curious is, you know, the story that I want to recommend to you is it's on the Athletic, you know, offshoot of The New York Times. And it's the insular relationships that protected Shohei Ohtani until they didn't. And basically it looks at, you know, he doesn't really speak much English. And so he's got two minders that kind of facilitate his life at these
huge Major League Baseball organizations. And one of them was like enormously ripping him off because he had like a gambling addiction. And that's kind of the crux of the story. But it takes you into, I guess, like the world of a professional sports star who is so insulated he doesn't really speak to his teammates. He doesn't speak to his coaches. All of his, you know, life is conducted
through this one minder or these two minders. And yeah, I just found it a really interesting long read to to get inside the mind of someone who is so incredibly talented, but their entire life is just about one thing being good at baseball, which he is very good at it. So yeah, I thought it was a great read from The Athletic. It's by Ken Rosenthal. He's like a long term New York Times journalist, and I found it really interesting as someone who is not into baseball.
That's a great shot. I haven't followed him super closely, but I'm aware that he's like this crazy unicorn player who's worth so much money. And yeah, he was sort of being accused of of betting on himself, like match fixing or something. And then why.
Would he need to do.
That? He has so much money. Totally.
And I think that's when it sort of emerged that he was being taken advantage of by this trend of fucking fascinating kind of sports business story.
Great recommendation.
Moneyball was right on.
Yeah, exactly.
I might rewatch that.
Um.
Hey, before we wrap up a little bit of news, uh, my time at The Age and Sydney Morning Herald is coming to an end. Which means that my time on this podcast is coming to an end, which you know, mixed feelings about. It's the right decision for me and various other things I've got underway. But I will miss you guys. I will miss working here. Um, Thomas and Meg, wonderful colleagues, wonderful friends, wonderful podcast co-hosts. Uh, hoping to be back next week with Mel. Fingers crossed. And we
can go out with something special. But, um, the news the news is out slightly earlier than I intended, so I thought it made sense to just let all of our wonderful listeners know, uh, you've all been extremely supportive and encouraging. Even the ones that tell me I talk weirdly or have bad takes. Uh, it's the fun of being a public commentator. It's been a really fun podcast to make, and I'll say some proper farewells next week.
But she our wonderful producer in Sydney, David McMillan, who helps us set up and looks after us every week, and Cormac Lally here in Melbourne, could not have done the podcast without you guys. Um, but yeah, that's the news.
I am shocked this is the first time I'm hearing it.
That's a lie, everyone.
Um, yeah. It's such sad news. And we're gonna miss you so much. And I'm sure listeners of the podcast feel the same way. This podcast is really off the back of your big giant brain, so it will be lacking a lot. And we're not sure what's to come, but people will get updated from there, I'm sure.
Thank you very much.
And I love how you saved it right till the end. Only the real ones get the news.
Totally.
Yeah, well, I thought it'd be weird to say at the start and then just have.
A conversation about it.
You're our good Will hunting. I don't want to see you around here anymore.
Um, yeah. You've gone to what? To go and see about a girl slash go out into the world? Yeah, obviously. You know, very sad. I am still shocked, even though I've heard about it multiple times. And I still kind of am, like, am I living in an alternate reality? Uh, yes. It's going to be very strange not to be working with you. And as you said, I think the listeners will miss you very much. Even that one person that commented recently, this has become a Osman echo chamber. Hahaha.
Um, I mean.
My name is in the podcast title. I know you don't want my takes.
He made sure of it.
That was part of his contract? Yes. And hopefully we can have time for a more proper goodbye. But, um. Yeah, no doubt everyone will be feeling exactly as Meg and Mel, no doubt at home is feeling. Which is really, really sad, but happy for you that you've made a decision that you think is right. And yeah, it won't be the same without you.
Thanks so much guys. I appreciate it and thank you for thinking.
About all that time. You're going to have to watch films and text us about.
Um, thanks for all your wonderful contributions to today's episode. Take care. Ciao.
Thanks, guys.
This episode of The Drop was produced by Kea Wong. If you enjoyed listening to today's episode of The Drop, make sure to follow us in your favorite podcast app. Leave us a review or better yet, share it with a friend! I'm Osman Farooqi. See you next week for one more ride.