Not this one. Not this one. I mean, I don't know on the scale of one.
To unacceptable what the Pitbull catalog sounds like. But man, on a Thursday, when there's some NFL tonight, we're heading into the weekend, We're ruining everybody's Thursday with Pitbull. And on this show, you know what Pitbull means. The mister worldwide of NBA media, he is Zach Harper on a Thursday.
Zach, Happy Thursday. Man, how you doing.
I'm doing great now that I hurt pit Bull? You kidding me?
Yeah, I know, I know.
All right, man, all right, right out of the gates. Let's just jump into it. Because the hot button topic in Salt Lake City about the Utah Jazz is this, Zach.
Are you ready?
Yeah?
John Collins is a fifty to forty ninety guy. It's a real thing. It's happened for the Utah Jazz this year. And so at the age of twenty seven. You know, because they have so many young players, we talk about John like he's sixty, he's twenty seven. Is there space in your mind that at the age of twenty seven clearly being the jazz best player this year, which I never thought I'd say that maybe John Collins could be in for the law on hall here.
I mean, what does that do? Like, I don't want to be mean about John Collins. I've never been a John Collins guy. I don't think he's bad. I just don't know. I don't know how consistently he contributes to winning. And this isn't a fair representation with him being on this team because I don't think they've put a winning product, you know, in the locker room. But like he's fine, right, Like I think if he's in your starting lineup, you you know, you need three or four really good guys
in that starting lineup too. And I think if he was, if he was coming off my bench, I would feel better about it. But I just I don't know, Like I mean, is he really a fit? Like I know he's I know his percentage of fifty forty ninety, But to me, the fifty forty ninety thing needs to come with, like I don't know, a threat that teams are terrified to leave you from that three point range?
Right all right, Zach, you know what, here's what we're gonna do.
You ask me a question about the Jazz, I don't know, ask me something about the jazz.
Yeah, exactly, exactly.
Try doing this four hours every day, Zach, So go ahead, ask me a question about the jazz.
All right, how about how about how about this? How about this? How close to let's say this, how how close to like, Oh, my goodness, Walker Kessler has made this Rudy Gobert trade the worst trade in NBA history. And I know it wasn't really about Walker, was more about what Rudy and the Wolves weren't doing. But how
close to like that version of Walker? Do you feel it like we're at in terms of maybe I don't even mean played, because he's a better player now than he was then, but just in terms of excitement.
So I will say that Walker has been the main bright spot to the start for the Jazz.
I just feel like I asked you that.
Yeah, he's been he's been good. Yeah, yeah, I.
Feel like I ask you that every single day. What he still doesn't every every single time he joined us. What he still doesn't do that Rudy did? And yeah, and Rudy has done in Minnesota, maybe not at the level that people were expecting this year, but it's still early. He does not have the same impact on winning the route he had. And I know that's kind of a clichedd thing, cliche thing to say about basketball, but it's
a real thing. And Walker still has a marathon to go with setting screens and understanding the flow offensively of what Will's.
Trying to do.
I think it's like relief around here that the sophomore slump appeared to have been just that as opposed to who he is, and he looks better now than he did pretty much at any point last season. And you know, whenever I do any other shows, they always ask me who's going to be around when the Jazz are good outside of marketing, And to start the season, I said, I think maybe nobody, And now I think Walker is somebody I'm ready to slot next to him as far as somebody who's going to be here for.
The long haul.
Yeah, I did. I mean, I think I've been very impressed by Walker, So I'm with you on that. I you know, it's funny, like cut, it's also in terms of what you're talking about with Walker, and like setting screens and setting screens is you know, is a is a legitimate skill for big men, but but just in terms of like helping the offense and everything. It's a little different when you get to do it with like Gordon Hayward and Donovan Mitchell and Mike colly, right, Like,
it's a little it's a little bit different there. So I don't know, I don't know you can kill Walker for that. I was actually just think this just click with me. You know. The John Collins thing is like for me, it's like when I would you know, I
have a bunch of friends who are in Minneapolis. They're massive Vikings fans, right, and they would and I'm in this group chat with him for the Fantasy Football League and and so like all the time I'm getting all this like over the years, I was getting all this Kirk Cousins stuff, and I'm like, Kirk Cousins is not good. I just I don't care what the numbers are, Like, I just don't think he's good. And my whole thing is like when someone's like, what are you talking about?
He's does this, this and this, my answer is always okay, So do you want him as your starter? Right, Like, let's just put it on the tape, Like we can debate skills and impact all stuff, but you want him as your starter? And I would get a lot of
hemming in hind. That's what it feels over the John Collins thing, right, Like, I recognize he's a talented basketball player and it's number good this year and everything, But when I when it gets downs on like the next five years of one, as you're starting power forward, I don't know that there's a lot of like absolutely right, it's like, oh yeah, that might work out. And that's what it feels like.
It's just and that's a good analogy.
Like it's very Sharif abdul Raheem Vancouver Grizzlies, like is he a twenty and ten guyers he played right, like playing for a team that won seven games, and shreefab Durheim ended up playing rotational minutes on some good teams later on. But I look, John Collins is not an answer as far as a puzzle piece that you want to put in place forever. I suppose the Collins situation is only good news though, because maybe maybe Will found something that no other coach has been able to find.
And this is real, so maybe you do have a twenty seven year old player that can be around for a few years, or is there a team out there that has been impressed with what John has done, and so they want to make a move and maybe you actually get a first round pick for John Collins, which last year I would have said, no way.
Right, Yeah, I'm with you there, Like, I think that is the more important future for John Collins is what do the Jazz turn him into, not as a player, but as a trade, whether that's bringing in a good player,
bringing in assets, whatever that is. To me, that's where with all these guys who aren't definite parts of the future, where you Because to me, also, I know it's not this simple, but I do try to have this philosophy of like if I ask myself a question and I have to think about it, it's a no. And mostly that's with like spring cleaning and hoarding and stuff where I'm like, I need to get rid of some stuff in this apartment. I'll look in the clause I'm like,
do I want that? And if I have to think about it, it's a no. And I try to live by that. And that's why I think about that with players like this, I'm like, if you have to kind of wonder if this guy should be a part of your future, then I think it's a no, Walker Kessler,
that's a yes, Lowry Markton, that's a yes. Everyone else like yeah, you start kind of hemming and han because also, this is the point of this Jazz team, right is to have some of these guys who are possible within the margins, players like you know, John Collins at twenty twenty five million dollars a year could be a discount for a lot of teams if this is what he can do for them. What he does for the Jazz isn't all that relevant. It's what teams who might trade
for him think. He thinks, like what he can do for them if they acquire, and then what is that worth to them in a trade? Like to me, that's the more important conversation with John Collins.
Sure, I want to move over to this. The Jazz are horrific in a number of different ways. But the two ways that jump at you when you look at numbers is defensively, they don't do anything well, and then they cannot take care of the basketball. They're almost two turnovers worse than the second worst team in turnovers per game. They're the worst team in the NBA and points off turnovers. And look, I've always hesitated to be like, what have
we learned about Will Hardy the coach? Because to your point about Walker Kess for the screen setter, it's one thing if it's Donovan Mitchell with Gobert. It's another thing that it's Johnny jus Ang with Walker. And that's very fair. And I don't think Will has the talent at his disposal for us to learn anything about him as a head coach.
But Zach, I watch every game.
They're lazy, they make bad decisions, they don't run back on defense, like, they don't do things that well coached teams do. Is that is anything there as far as putting it at the feet of their head coach? Or is this just simply a really bad basketball team with no talent?
Yeah, I mean that that's a very fair question, right, Like I think there is a there is a point like I have a bunch of or friends who are
Blazers fans, right and they don't like Chauncey Billups. But then we'll talk about, like, hey, defense has actually been pretty solid, way better than you would think this year, And I'm like, well, yeah, but that's kind of coaching, right, Like so like and I'm gonna saying you have to like Chousey Billets as a coach, but it's it's interesting to me when it's like, we got to get rid
of this guy. But they do do this well, and you can't really separate the two, right, Like they do it well because I think the coach gets them to do it well or at least better than what you would think most nights with the Blazers and with the Jazz, it's kind of the flip of that. It's like, Wow, there's all these red flags about this team, like, this team's terrible, they do this poorly, this poorly, and do
this in a disinterested way. But I like will Hardy right, and it's and I do think I do think there's something of I think Will Hardy can help develop players. I think if you gave him a good roster, they'd be very successful. I don't think he's a hindrance for that at all. But they are in this weird middle ground right now of trying to figure out who who fits and who doesn't, and and to me, those are signs of guys who don't right Like I turnovers, I don't,
especially for a young team. I don't mind turnovers. And I know that sounds kind of dumb, but like if you like, you're kind of troubleshooting in real time, Like we'll get you know, a Luca or a Trey Young or whatever of a young point guard, a young league guard in the league and first two years, like it's like, man, these turnovers, they're averaging so many turnovers, Like yeah, but they're you're kind of in a way troubleshooting what you can get away with and what you can create as
a passer, as a dribbler, whatever. And so I do think turnovers can be fine as long as it progresses down the road. But when it's met with like, well, there's a breakaway dunk, and there is a breakaway dunk, and we're not getting back on defense and one guy gets back, why while a missshot happens on a fast break and now they're getting offensive rebound and stuff because no one else got back. Those are problems. And to me, it's both player and coach and and that kind of stuff.
You know, it's probably fine in the first part of the season in a way, or at least not terrible. If that's happening all season long, yeah, that's a coaching issue.
And I do wonder at what point, because I tend to agree with you about giving young players the benefit of doubt, and I've always said that about make or miss as well. But we do at some point have to wonder who Keyante George is in pro basketball, because he is the number one culprit in turnovers per game and probably the number one culpriate in bad shots selection and just the inability to make shots. And I've always said, like mak er miss is a thing that in pro
basketball you ten to learn. Some guys have it right away, but you have great coaching, you put in the work, you can learn to shoot. You understand the game a little bit better, you pick your spots, You're able to get to your spot, elevate make shots the way you couldn't when you were younger. Is he is young, But we've already talked about the splits going back to college. You're one in pro basketball, twenty two games in a year two in pro basketball. I'll just say I've not
seen him get better at all. At what point is that a problem?
Yeah? I mean, like I think by I think by like year three, if you're not getting better, then this is just what you are, right, And maybe that's harsh and I'm sure there are outliers to that, but especially for a lead guard like that's you kind of got to show progression, right, I mean, I think that's part of what Portland's going through with Scoot Henderson's Like, yeah, you can show flashes, and the flashes are great, but the consistency is what makes you a player, right, And
that's that's what makes you who you are as a player. And looking at Chante's numbers, I mean, other than an increase in minutes and increase in shots, like there's like it's pretty consistent to what we saw last year, at least with the numbers across the board. And you know, you and I have talked about this a bunch over the last year and a half, Like I like what I see out of him, but the results don't yield it.
And so there's a certain point where the process is just like you know, if it doesn't yield different results, even if it looks good, I mean, it's it's just not worth it, right. And so you know, his scoring is up two point nine points per game, but his shot at hims are up two point eight. That's not that's not progress, right. And then in the percentages, are basically the same across the board. His assists are up one point two, his turnovers are up zero point eight.
That's not really progress. And so yeah, like I mean, if if, if we don't see progression out of him towards the end of the season, and it doesn't have to it does not like he has to go shoot forty eight percent from the field one month, but like forty three would be cool. I don't think that's asking a lot, right, Like just cutting down on some turnovers
here and there could be like would be good. And then if you get this, you know, if you get this at the start of next season, he's just not the guy.
Yeah, yeah, and forty three percent would be more than cool. It would be very exciting.
It would be cool.
But yes, like give us that at least and we can be okay with it, all right, you guys over at the athletic I read this earlier when it was at the gym. Don't want to get into it with shoulders and arms. Today it's you know, it's the thing I do. No, not today, that's Saturday, because I have yoga tomorrow.
No, I did.
My next one is Saturday. Okay, you don't know what Monday, looks like we're all in Zach. What's it's It's tough.
It's tough. It's tough. I'm not gonna lie.
But I read the uh, the front office piece you guys put out for the Athletics. So you guys ranked the front offices in all of pro basketball, uh number one, certainly OKAC runaway. It is terrifying, not just who they are, but who they could be with those guys making the decision. I was really curious as to where the Jazz would fall because typically the Jazz are like a top five or top six front office, and you guys slotted them
at fourteen, which isn't bad, but it's not good. Give me your thoughts on where the Jazz landed at your front office rankings today. Number fourteen, just behind Philly, just ahead of Dallas.
Yeah, just to give a little bit deeper context to it, this was an anonymous poll of forty different executives around the league. General manager, assistant general manager, you know, all kinds like the top executives though, done by sam Ay Mix, John Hollingdry and Mike Borkanoff, who were just you know, some of the best in the business, and so it was like a point system of like a first place
voter is so many points. It was kind of like awards voting, right, and the one rule was like you can't vote for your team, And so I was actually surprised that Jazz were as low as they were, that they weren't in the top ten. I get it, like I think, I think we did this at the end of last season. Cleveland doesn't finish in the top ten, right, like I think there have been a lot of questions about that. I think their hot start kind of skewed
some of that. I think the same for Minnesota in terms of I think people respect Tim Connolly, but also they made the conference finals last year. If they get knocked down in the first round, I'm not sure that that is that's the case where he gets them into the top ten this year in this poll. And so I think for me, you know, it looks bad right now with the Jazz in terms of the products on
the floor, but you can see what they're doing. They're accumulating assets, they're drafting, they're trying to find the value picks, and then they're hoping to like win that lottery and it's either Cooper Flag or it's a failure. It's the loser brothers next next year, you know, or twenty twenty six like whatever. So I think the Jazz do a great job of finding those moves. I mean, that's the thing to me where you know, Charlotte did this in
the Charlotte's new front office did this. Who's a guy, Jeff Peterson, I thing he like they did this with the Karlington Town's trade this you know right before. It was just like they got involved and they ended up getting a little bit of draft capital. The teams with cap space, the teams with flexibility, those are the smart teams that get into those trades as like a third or fourth team and end up with a little something.
It doesn't have to be a big something, but it's a little something to me, the Jazz do that constantly, and that's what Danny Ainge and Justin zannakers good at with that, and so I think they should be a little higher. But also with the way the product looks on the floor, I think that can skew the way some people are looking at this.
Did you guys take in to do into considerations current ownership situations, Yes, that.
Was part of I mean, I believe that was the prompt of like, hey, we're going top level, right. Like I can't speak to it directly because I wasn't part of the of the polling of the executives, but that you know, the way it's listed out and the way it's laid out in the article it does you know, you do have ownership mentions and stuff, and I think
that matters. I think it's why. It's why, like I wrote about it today for our newsletter of just a mention of hey, Charlotte's been bumbling forever and now they've got new ownership. Jeff Peterson's in there, Charles leaves the coach like it looks better. It doesn't look fixed, but it looks better, right, And I do think to me, ownership is always the most important part of all of this.
It is, right if you have a meddling owner, I mean, look, market matters, and luck matters and all you know, there's stuff that it's there that matters. But if you have an owner who completely tanks things because they want to medal and everything like that usually ends up rooting things.
Yeah, and ownership is always going to be the most important element of professional sports. So that leads me to the question what is the feel around pro basketball right now? Because when the Miller's owned the Jazz, it felt like front office rankings were very rarely less than five sixty seven something like that. Does any of this have anything to do with the fact that there's been an ownership change.
I do think that there's this weird split and it's nothing new, but it's getting more and more like this, right. I do think there's this weird split of like old school ownership run organizations and like the newer, like almost tech pro aspect of it. Right, And there is like I was talking about this with someone earlier today about you know, why doesn't Denver just go out and spend and why don't they do this? I'm like, this is
you know, this isn't tech bros. Buying the Denver Nuggets and saying, like, how do we make this our number one business? It's the Cronkys. They got money. They're like, they're good, Like he'd had money forever and they've been successful forever and they don't need to worry about that.
They got their championship with the Nuggets and and now they can be you know, cheap kind of within the margins of spending and and like it's not important to them, whereas I think newer ownership is it's important to them. So I think with the new owners, I bet Brian Smith is like super respected and and and love. I bet some of the old owners are looking at it and like, yes, I mean this this tech kid. He
doesn't know what he's doing. He doesn't no sports. I do think there's this real divide amongst ownership.
There absolutely is, And I think I'll just leave that there, all right, What is your uh, what's your favorite ending to the Jimmy Butler saga?
Oh, I kind of want him in Golden State. I kind of like him and Draymond on the same team him like kind of being the second guy to steph Uh, he can. I think he can do what he wanted to do in Minnesota before he realized like, oh these guys don't have it. I gotta do this all myself. I think that's to me the most fun. The Houston one could be super fun too, because him paired with Udoka, Like, that's that's a that's a lot of psychosists. And I mean that in a very nice way, like a complimentary way.
That's a lot of weird psychotic competitive energy from from coach and star player, and I don't think it would really hurt them. I think he would help Shangoon a lot. But again, like we saw it in Minnesota, like those guys have to be about winning for him to not make it a mess. Otherwise, I think he gets kind of bored and wants to make it a mess.
Butler Udoka is free.
Well, Carlossimo times ten, that's not ending in a Yeah, that's not ending in a gentle choke.
Zach no, no, no, no, no, no, They're gonna no, it's gonna end up in like you know that scene in Kickboxer, or they're like they get sticky stuff on the hands and then they put it in like broken shards of glass and nails.
Like that's what that would be.
Blood Sport. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, blood Sport.
The old John Van Clad, John Van Clad dam or whatever the hell's name was, dude, John Claude Van Do Now, I would imagine Cinopho.
His movies have to be right in your wheelhouse. You have to have talked about a few.
Yeah, we did blood Sport, we did Time Cop, we did Lion Hard. I feel like I'm missing some but yeah no, jpbd is is very involved in cinophol.
What's the Zach Harper enthusiasm level during Christmas?
Oh? I love it. I love Christmas. I love you know, buying gifts from my nieces and nephew. I love hanging out with the family. I love uh the Hallmark Christmas movies that I love watching Dieharden, arguing with my niece that it's the Christmas movie. I love it all.
We have a tree up in the domicile.
Not in mind, no, because I usually in the I'm never here for the actual holiday. I go to my parents place. But but there's a tree there obviously it's very well decorated.
All right, brother, Well, I appreciate the time today. I have a great weekend with chat next week.
Appreciate it. Thanks MAV great.
Zach Harper from The Athletic also the host of the Cinfo pod.
He has like five podcasts. He's a busy guy.
Get the links to all of his work up on his Twitter page at talk Hoops is where you find him.