Ted Live Today Night of the heart of downtown Salt Lake City, Utah, on a steamy, hot Utah Tuesday afternoon in July at Beer Bar. It's one sixty oneies, two hundred South. One sixty onies, two hundred south. We got the patios open and the misters are going. It actually feels really nice out there. We've got an event coming up this week we'll tell you about. Andy Larson from the Salt Lake Tribune will join us. We got about two hours left in the show. Good stuff with Stevens
and Sylvester who stopped by to talk Utah football. Pablo Maschiutti for the latest on RSL. But let's do a little basketball. A legend around these parts, former college coach and now one of the more entertaining broadcasters you're ever going to hear. Joe Craven's good enough to give us some time on a Tuesday. Joe, Happy Tuesday, sir.
How are you?
Thanks? Beantai appreciate you having me on and always happy to give you a little time here. I'm over in Denver getting ready to go to a Rockies game, so we've got a little time before the pre game festive start, and so glad to spend a few minutes with you.
I appreciate the time. And of course, you know, when Frank passed. Frank Layden passed away a couple of weeks ago at the age of ninety three. I was talking to Smitty about who I should have on the show. You're one of the first names he brought up, and you know, Joe, it's it's actually, obviously it's tremendously sad that we've lost Frank. There's certainly an element to this that feels like a blessing that he's not suffering anymore.
It's really been kind of a sweet experience for me to interview all these people over the past couple of weeks and learn all these anecdotes about who he was as a man, as a coach, as a husband, as a father.
What was it like being Frank Leyden's friend?
You know, it was a a very special friendship Frank was. You know, we've been For instance, I came to University of Utah nineteen eighty nine. That was the year Majeris came and I was an interim coach, and and I think that's when I don't think that's when I first met Frank, so that you know, spans way over thirty years and he just became a just a wonderful friend. And I have given a lot of thought his passing. And you know, when we were together, we very rarely
talked about basketball. As you know, he was a huge baseball fan. We talked a lot of baseball. He was a voracious reader. We were always the last several years, every time he had seen me, the first thing he would ask, in that gravelly Brooklyn accent, what are you reading? And so I tell him what I was read. We would exchange books and talk about books and again talk a lot about baseball. But he endeared hisself to my
I have two daughters. One reason we're in Colorado right now is my younger daughter works for the Colorado Rock. And many years ago, when she was probably thirteen or fourteen, I was in Weaver State, when I was still working there in a press box in the football at a football game with Frank and we were talking. I said, coach,
you're not going to believe this. I've got a little girl, a daughter that just loves professional baseball, loves Big League baseball, and I you know, we talked about it and I said her favorite player is Willie Mays for some reason. And so the next time I saw Frank, there was another football game. He brought me this beautiful plaque with a picture of caricature almost like you would see in Cooperstown of Willie May's a list of all these records under it, and you turn it over. It had his
signature and then a letter of authenticity. And he said, here, take that home to Shelby. And I said, coach, don't do that. That's a treasure. Don't give that to you know, some young kid. He said, nah, I she'll like it. And she has it in her office with the Colorado Rockies right now. And uh. And he always asked, you know, how's your baseball daughter doing? And then my other daughter is an actress in Chicago, and he when she was majoring in theater in at University of Utah, he went
to several of her plays. One day he took my whole my daughter, my baseball daughter I just talked about, and my wife and I to brunch at the Little America and then we went to one of her plays on a I think that was on a Sunday. And so, you know, our friendship for two old coaches had very little to do with basketball. It had to do with you know, him, him caring for my family and all our other interests, and it was just a very to me. I kind of forgot, you know, it was a celebrity
type friendship with Frank. You know, Frank laden's a celebrity, but you know, he just became a family friend to us, and it was it was very very special.
You know, It's so many good things in there.
I often wonder if Frank himself knew how because you referenced his celebrity, and certainly part of frank celebrity was his personality because his one liners.
He was really funny, he was very witty.
But also just the respect that he had in the basketball community as a coach, as a talent evaluator.
I wonder if Frank.
Himself Joe really fully realized how many people respected him the way they did.
You know, I think I think Frank loved people. You know, he loved being around people. They loved making people laugh, He loved doing nice things for people. And you know, I think Frank knew he was famous, but I don't think that matter to him. I don't think he gave that much thought, I think, you know, if you pend him down, he'd say, yeah, you know, former NBA Coach of the Year. Yeah, I was. You know, I guess I don't know. I guess I'm fair. I guess I'm famous. I don't know.
Uh.
But you know, that never was a part of our relationship. And like I said, at times, I had to kind of reflect and step back that, hey, this this is this is Frank Layton, this is a celebrity, this is a big time dude. And you know, we would and he'd he loved exchange jokes. You know, he gave me a great confidence, said, no one knows how to tell a jokeer out here but you. And I'd tell him, you know, a joke, and he'd laugh, he'd steal, and then I'd get on him because I'd hear later he'd
retell my joke. People say, oh, Frank Layton told me this, this great joke, and I'd get I said, us, ob, you're taking my jokes and taking credit for him, And he laughed. He just thought that was the funniest thing, you know. But it again, so so special and so blessed that he and I had that relationships. As is many people Spence for so many years.
When it comes to you know, Frank Laden the basketball mind, as somebody who coached at very high level in college, what sort of inside you have there? You know, it's funny, Joe, because I pushed back. I've heard people say on this show and elsewhere like Frank never got enough credit for the coach that he was. Well, people that knew gave Frank credit because people that know no, and yes, he went on to do dazzling dunks and basketball bloopers and
became kind of a characterture in a way. I've always believed part of that was to sell the Utah Jazz to the country and make sure that the team had the exposure and a little bit of personality and character. But when I say Frank Laden the basketball mind, the basketball coach, what comes to your mind?
You know, I think more than x's and o's when he ever, when he would address one of my teams, or when I heard him speak with when I was with Majaris at Utah, he would talk more about what it was what made good teams, you know, being a good teammate, giving to your teammates and taking responsibility for your actions with your role on the team, and he talked much more about things like that to makeup the.
The intangibles of being a good team and what it took. Then he did about, hey, you know, you've got to screen over here and you got to execute that now if you really wanted to talk to him, and every once in a while when I was still coaching, i'd.
Say, you know, what did you do against the press? And we would talk a little bit like that, But it was more about the makeup of a good team, the personality, if you will, of a good team than it was Exorcizise. And of course he was once you did penn him down to talk at x and Oles. He obviously he was very impressive. He had a really
good basketball mind. But I think, for my money, his feelings and his thoughts of what it took to be a good team, regardless of the x and Oles, I think was where he was very special.
And it just felt like, you know, the term players coach sometimes can be cliched and sometimes can maybe be overused. But I don't know that we could find a player Joe that played for him, that didn't love him, that didn't look up to him as a father figure. I mean one of the most fascinating because, you know, when I got into this industry, partially I was encouraged by Frank, so I owe him a lot. Actually, yes, but I decided, like, as much as I can have him on, I am
going to have him on. And it's it's really turned out to be a little serendipitous because I have hours and hours of conversations I've had with Frank that I'll always be able to go back and listen to.
And one of the stories he told me was about a.
Player named John Drew, who I know, you know, Joe and old school jazz fans certainly know, but maybe not younger jazz fans or maybe jazz fans that weren't necessarily connected to the team.
Back in the eighties.
John Drew was a tremendous talent who just couldn't get it figured out off the court. And you know, if Frank told me the story of John coming to him and informing him that he had sold the rights to his future pension for a couple of thousand dollars in order to, you know, just get the fix that he needed because he was in such a bad spot.
And as Frank is telling me, the story.
He's getting emotional, and as Frank is telling me the story, he's walking me through how many times he tried to reach John, and throughout the course of his retirement, how often he would check in on him.
So we talk about the John and Carl stuff.
In the you know, drafting of these legendary players, I feel like he viewed all of his players almost as like extended sons.
If that makes sense.
Well, I don't think there's any doubt. I think Frank was one of those unique people who got in and we talked a lot about this that that that I just recently, I mean just a couple of weeks before losing Frank lost my high school coach who was ninety one years old. And I have always said I got into coaching to have an impact on kids' lives, like
my high school coach had on me. And I and Frank and I talked about that, and you know, and he said, you you go down that road, you want to have a positive impact on everyone that plays for you, and but you look back and you know that you
did on some and that's very rewarding. But the ones that kind of stick with you are the ones that you you didn't that you just couldn't you know, you didn't feel like you made their life better or you didn't make them better, or that fought coaching, just just couldn't kind of get on the same level with you. And you know, we we talked about and he said, you know, you you you revel in the fact that the guys you touched and you know you touched and
are very loyal to you. But the ones that the ones that got away so to speak, that you just felt like you just kind of spent time with, those are the ones that kind of, uh stick with you a little bit longer. And he and I both agreed that that you know that that that does it bothers you. You know, you wish you could have done more, but sometimes you just you can't reach everyone and you can't have or you don't have that positive effect on everyone
that you coach. But I have no doubt that's what because we again we talked about he told me he got into coaching to touch people, not to you know, not to be the NBA Coach of the Year, not to be uh famous, but but to make the world better, to make people better, you know.
And and the other thing while we're kind of in this space of the guys who played for him, And look, Scotty deserves a lot of credit here, Scott laden as a talent evaluator, and every front office in pro basketball evaluating talent takes swings and misses.
But Joe his hit rate in the draft.
I mean, we talk about John and Carl, but it's Mark Eaton, it's Thorough Bailey, it's Bobby Hanson, it's you know, trades for Adrian Danley. And you know, if you go down the list of players who Frank identified as potential really great players.
He hit a lot.
So I don't know that he gets enough credit for his ability to evaluate talent.
You know, Oh, I think that's a very valid point. You just named a pretty good list of guys that he seemed like he had a great feel for and what they would become and how he projected them, and and there's there's just a long list that you didn't mention that maybe didn't go on to start him, but were very solid NBA players that he had a lot to do with. So I think I think he was
a very solid X and O tactician guy. I think he had a great feel for people and kind of almost a second since about how to project those people to the next level, which for him was the NBA.
You know, your reference.
His love of baseball and it was always fun to be at the ballpark and run into Frank and Barbara and obviously the seventh inning stretch to take me out to the ball game legendary. I wonder if we went a little deeper. I know he was a Dodgers fan and told great stories of ebbotts Field. I wonder if you could illuminate me further on just how deep that love ran, kind of where it was deep from and what the game of baseball meant to Frank Layton.
Well, one of his great stories, where's and uh and and I at his funeral or his service there at the Catholic church in in in Salt Lake, when Scott Game got up and was talking by his dad and he said, I'm going a little off script here. He said, let's sing dad's favorite song, and he and one and a two. Of course everyone knew where it was going, and we sang take me out to the ballgame. Uh. That was that was special and uh. He his one of his great stories was about seeing Jackie Robinson play
first game. He probably told you that, Spence. And the funny part of that was he he he went out to lunch with some high school friends and they went back to school and he went to Abbotsfield Jackie Robinson's first game. And Frank told this story so so well. He said, I'm standing there at the railing and an older gentleman was standing there with me, and we're talking, and the older gentleman says, now, which one is this
Robinson guy that everyone's making the fuss about. And Frank said, I looked at him and said, well, we should be able to pick him out, don't you think. Of course I made Frank Coe. It took Frank about fifteen minutes to tell that story, you know, but it was just a terrific story. I think his love for baseball and for basketball is growing up in a neighborhood at a time, like a lot of us did him before you and I Spence that you know, there wasn't a whole lot
else to do. You know, in the summertime, no one had air conditioning, no one had, you know, a computer or cell phones, and you just went out and played it entertained yourself. And he talked about playing stickball to me, and you know, in the neighborhoods there in Brooklyn, and
I think he just grew up. You know, he led the city of Brooklyn in scoring and basketball and then home runs as a catcher his senior year, and I think his love for baseball just came from, you know, playing as a kid and then playing through high school and entertaining himself as a young man in Brooklyn where they didn't have a whole lot of entertainment going on.
Upon his passing Joe, as you know, he and Barbara had been married for sixty eight years, and you know, watching those two over the courses of mine entire I don't really have a memory of life where Frank wasn't involved in my life. You know, I was young when my father was here, and you know, so watching those two over the years and just how good they were to me, how good they were to my son, how good they were to everybody, and ultimately how good they
were to each other. I wonder what your thoughts are on Frank laid and the husband sixty eight years with Barbara.
Well, it was It's a textbook. And he would tell you the best assistant coach ever had in his life was Barbara, and she was I'm a big gardener. You know, you can't you can take the boy out of Southern Indiana, but you can't take the Southern Indiana out of the boy. And I grow a lot of tomatoes and I used to bring uh, Frank and Barbara tomatoes and cucumbers, and Barbara just loved that. I mean, she just loved those
fresh vegetables, you know, out out of my guard. And she was always just so gracious, and she loved going to my daughter's plays and and that that's the reason his passing was such an impact on my family, not just on me. I mean he had told you a couple of stories about you know, both daughters had nothing to do with basketball or ex'es and o's. But Barbara was just, uh, she was the runner on that ship, he would tell you. I mean, she was just just
such a beautiful and gracious woman. And he probably told you this. Al McGuire introduced them, is how they started dating. And he'd like to tell that story. And you know, he's one of those guys that sudden these stories you'd heard a time or two, but they were still very entertaining, you know, you want to. You know, I'd long to hear some more.
Of his stories if I could, certainly, certainly, Joe, before I say you lose, just away from Frank for a moment, I just wonder what a college coach like you, who coached in the game for a number of years, you know, kind of makes of where we find ourselves.
With this sport.
And you know in State, BYU hires Kevin Young, BYU is flexing their nil muscles and they've got a program right now with a lot of momentum. And then Alex Jensen has been hired to coach his alma mater. And I don't know that Utah has the power of the person that BYU does right now. Hopefully they can get some support because I very much like Alan, I want him to succeed. But when you consider things like a lot of these players will be making more money than any of their and coaches and the.
Ability to transfer schools.
If you're not happy with your your lot, what do you make of where we find the college game? And it certainly would be interested in your take on where we find both Utahn and du Yu.
Well, I've always been a proponent or a long proponent that that players should be compensated, uh spence, but not to the level that it is now, I think. And unfortunately, I think, you know, the cows are out of the bar and we ain't getting them back in the barn. And it just it just has grown in a very short time, with the transfer portal and and with the NIL money, into something that is totally unrecognizable for people
like you and I and people of our generation. But I think all the valuable life lessons I learned playing basketball in college, and you know, I I back when the NIL was first starting, people said, what do you think about this? And I, you know, I played at Texas Arlington, and I think I'm still the six hundred and seventy sixth all time leading school there. Maybe I'm not sure, but you know, I thought I was pretty
damn lucky. You know. I was on full scholarship. We were flying around, and we were eating pretty good, you know, and I was chasing a few cheerleaders here and there, and I thought, God that, you know, how could it get any better than this? And you know, I'd go back to Indiana and I'd work in the summer and I'd make you know, eight hundreds of thousand dollars and that was my spending money when I went back to school.
And you know, that summer job that did a lot for who I am today, for you know, the life lessons understanding what it's like to work hard. And I think we're raising a whole generation of athletes who I'm
not saying they don't work hard. But if all of a sudden, you get out of college and you've been making say you're just a sixth or seventh guy and you're only making one hundred thousand dollars, and you get a degree in communications and you go to work for the Colorado Rockies and they say, yeah, we're going to hire your starting salary sixty thousand dollars. I mean, you know, how's the kid? Well wait a minute, now, you know,
God I've been making hunt Well. I mean, I don't know that we're other long term, that we're doing those athletes any favor. And you know who doesn't care though, is the fan base. They just go fight, win, let's win, let's wall. You know, how made you win this year? Are we going to win the champions? You know, things like that from an ex coach, I don't I don't think we're doing again the athletes any service. But I
don't know about you. No one called me and asked me my opinion on this before they started all this, So I don't like where it's is. I don't. I can't change it. You can't change it, you know. I'm just going to ride along for a while on TV and until they quit calling and we'll go play golf.
That sounds like a good life. How do you like the broadcasting thing. You're very good at it. It's very entertaining. You have a very unique approach. Are you enjoying the gig?
I am Spence, I am very very Next year will be my twentieth year in broadcasting. I was very blessed, you know. After my college coaching career ended, I didn't skip a beat. I got right into broadcasting. And you know, I again, I'm very lucky. In fact, next year, if you count thirty years of coaching, four years of playing, and twenty years of broadcasting, will be my fifty fourth year involved with college basketball at some level. And I feel not a day goes by. I don't think, you know,
I'm pretty damn lucky. I'm pretty blessed with that. I don't never take that for granted. But I tell people the greatest, without a doubt, the greatest thing about broadcasting is I'm undefeated over nineteen years, you know. I mean, I hadn't lost the game, and some of those people didn't think I was very smart as a coach. Thank boy, God, you're pretty smart all of a sudden as a broadcaster.
So I am really enjoying it. I have enjoyed it, and again I'm going to ride that horse for as long as I can and until I finally fall off of it.
I guess well, Like I said, it's tremendously entertaining. I've long been a fan of the broadcast, and I really appreciate your time and perspective today, Joe, So stay safe, be well, and we'd love to get you on soon.
Okay, thanks Vitch. I want to take a second. I've got a golf buddy who is out of town up in Oregit, a long time listener and fan of yours, Bruce Stevens. I want to say hello too, and hope he's doing well up there. He and his wife have left Utah to escape the heat, but he is a loyal, loyal listener of yours and a little friend of mine, and I appreciate you having me on and uh, I'd like to do it again sometime.
That's very kind, Sir.
Joe Craven's longtime college coach Utah Idaho Weeper State. He's with a Mound West Conference as a broadcaster now and lifelong friends with the legendary Frank Leaden.