You in a Tom Petty mood today on a Monday afternoon.
What's going on? What's going on with you and there? What's the deal?
I guess kind of not officially, but yeah, the first two songs going with a little Tom Petty, So maybe we'll.
Keep it going. Maybe not. No, you can roll with it, but you do.
You are aware this is a family friendly program, right, Yeah? And your first Tom Petty bump songs about weed. Dude, just be better. Mary Jane's a sweet girlfriend of his.
It's weed.
Just say no, kids, I'm just I'm the one that has to clean up for your poor musical choices by reminding the masses that we're here to take care of families and children.
Is that our demographic? Yeah, just say no. It's all I'm saying. I think that sheet said like thirty five seventy Maile, Okay, fair enough.
Our next guest passes on grass like Greg Fokker form Meet the Parents, Tom haberstro Monday Afternoon.
Hello Tom, how are you?
I'm good man. I like that you make that presumption about me.
Well, if you'd like to discuss your wheat smoking habits on air, Tom, I'm happy to make the space no.
This is a family program. You're absolutely right, I think, yeah, yeah, yeah.
It is what an interest?
Now this is still this is still live radio. This is not a podcast. We have to behave ourselves in a way that people like you and Zach Harper do not.
Yeah, we have to remind ourselves that we're professionals, because everything in our lives just screams on professionals. So thank you for the reminder.
Yeah. No, you guys are very professional.
But you know, you can drop a bomb here there, or you can discuss things on podcasts that you can't discuss on radio, right, I mean that's kind of the deal.
You tell me, Spence, you're the one with the radio show.
Well, when I go on podcasts, it seems like there's a little bit more freedom to use certain terms.
Is that fair to say?
Yeah? Yeah, you know what, I'm just surprised you went with weed. That kind of feels like another maybe like a graduate level program compared to just marijuana, you know, like feels like it feels like it's a little inside baseball.
Nice job, my bad bubonic product.
I've got a bunch of terms so we could use if you want to. But we can move on speaking of Zach Harper. He does not like you're Kevin Garnett. Is Cooper flag comp Just so you.
Know, well, Zach is way smarter than me on all things basketball, so I would trust him on all those things. But you know what, he's also a Minnesota Timberwolf lifer, so he probably understands that comparing anyone to KG is like any Bulls fan hearing people compare anybody to Michael Jordan.
Okay, fair enough, fair enough, And it's funny because of all the comps that I've heard, they're Garnet. One actually tracks when you watch the way that Cooper can guard and how well he moves. I mean, look, I think you know, whether it's Kawhi or whether it's gone at Whenever you compare an eighteen year old to Hall of famers, you're going to get pushed back.
Is there anything.
About the way Duke went out that could potentially affect the way people view Cooper at all?
I don't think so, Considering he's the youngest guy on the court by why margin, he was going against a lot older guys, And as much as I want to pin it all on him, I thought that the over the back call that they whistled on him was very borderline. Didn't feel like the right call at that stage. The physicality in the game feels like that was something you might call him the beginning of the game to set the tone for the rest of the game. But the way that Houston was being physical with Duke, I was
flabbergasted at that call. And look, he missed the shot there at the end, but he's made those shots time and time again, so I don't think that that was a bad shot. What really stands out to me is Malowatch having zero rebounds in over twenty minutes of action and that Duke had no rebounds after the four minute mark. That's that's insane. And some of that falls on Cooper
Flag for sure, but it's one game. It's a huge game, and if the Duke Blue Devils went out in like the second round or then the Sweet sixteen, I would have a lot harsher words to say for Cooper Flag and John Shire and Duke. That was an epic collapse. But I wouldn't put this put this all on Cooper Flag and it wouldn't change my evaluation of him.
That's the type of lost tom. I don't care if it's you know, Pete Van Sicklin and Ernie Verena and Staples in nineteen ninety five. It doesn't matter what level you played, it doesn't matter how long it's been. A loss like that, I don't think ever fully leaves you. Like if you're John, if you're Conking Nipple, the Malawatch kid or Cooper, like, all of them are probably gonna go on those All three of those kids are lottery picks.
They're gonna make millions of dollars and play basketball for years. But the way they went out, I'm not sure a loss like that ever fully leaves you.
It's traumatic, it's the best way to describe it. As a basketball players, you're always gonna think about it, Like if you're up six with thirty six seconds left. For the rest of your career, you're gonna be thinking about San Antonio. You're gonna be thinking about what happened against the Houston Cougars. And that's the fact of the matter. For any athlete who has ever suffered a loss like that, you are always going to have it in the back
of your mind. Now, time heals all wound, so eventually it'll fade for memory, and it won't be so harsh and searing of a loss over time. But I can't imagine that anyone who suffers that kind of loss. I mean, I'll tell you what I don't know. If you watch the White Lotus, oh yeah, it seems I mean the text that I got from all my buddies in North Carolina, it was the duke shirt with the Dad rack Cliffs
with the gun to his head. And I was sitting there being like, that feels like we're in a simulation now, because how is White Lotus picking the one team that has the most depressing most I can't believe that just happened, lost the most brutal loss of the tournament, and it happened right before the finale of White Lotus, which feels like we are part of this simulation where it's all connected in some way, just like in the White Lotus
season finale. No spoilers, but that was one of the big themes, was how we're all connected in some way, And that finish by the Blue Devils did feel like this was preordained somehow that it would promote the White Lotus season finale that last night. And I'm still gathering my thoughts on both the Duke loss on Saturday night and White Lotus on Sunday night. But both of them felt like big events in the year twenty twenty five, and.
I was wrong about both. Just to be clear, I did not see either coming. But yeah, we'll leave the spoiler alerts for White Lotus offware today. I do have one more question, Tom, and I don't think there's anything here.
Let me be clear.
My personal opinion and my personal belief is that Cooper is leaving.
He's going.
He's a generational player that's going to be the number one pick, and he is healthy, so you.
Gotta go do that, Okay.
Now, the other side of it is he is a young eighteen year old he turned eighteen I think three and a half months ago, and a taste in your mouth like that to leave college maybe something that motivates him to come back because of his age and five years ago, this is a conversation we would not even
be having. However, I could actually foresee whether it's you know, Cooper, Khan, k Nipple, the Malawatch Kid, all three of them saying, look, we know we're lottery picks, but we're all young, we're teenagers. And if Duke wants to step up with an NIO package that will pay them more for one year than what all of them could make as rookies in the NBA, to run it back and try to get John Shire's first National championship. I guess I would say stranger things
have happened based off the current landscape. And I'm sitting here shaking my head because I'm now imagining this scenario on May twelfth, when the NBA lottery is held and the Jazz get number one, and then the next day Cooper Flag announces that he's going back to Duke.
I do not know what it would be like around here. What do you?
What do you?
Oh man? Oh man? I don't even want to think about it.
But any shot in hell that that actually goes down.
I think it's even less likely now than it was before that collapse, because I think there's no upside in coming back. There's this. The only way that you have redemption or that you win that equation is if you win the National Championship, right Like, anything short of that
is just making more salts in the wound. And I think when you lose in the final four in epic fashion like that there's only one way to forget that whole thing and to make those wrongs right is to win it all the next year, and just with a one and done style format of the NCAA tournament, I just I don't see the upside there being worth it, because in the NBA you can make the argument that like a team that much better than everybody else, in a seven game series, you have a better shot of
asserting your dominance in a seven game series, not in a one and done where something flukey can happen and everything collapses like a house of cards. So I think before that Cooper Flag championship or the final four loss, I would say there's better odds if they win at all that he would come back and do it again
like Djokim Noah and Al Horford did. Then if they had this cataclysmic loss in the final four, and I would just say, there's also this dynamic of dabansa next year where if he Cooper Flag comes back, and Canipple comes back and Malawatch comes back, there's an excellent draft class coming through next year that they're going to have to be competing for draft picks next year, and not only competing for draft picks or draft slot. You're competing for millions of dollars in first year salary or at
least rookie scale salaries. So I think the risk for Cooper Flag actually got even higher in deciding to come back. So I agree with you. I don't think it's going to happen, and I think it's even more of a long shot, A long shot that turns into even more of a long shot if they lose that game in horrific fashion. I think it's a I don't even I don't think it's gonna happen. But you know what, stranger things have happened, like blowing a what was it a
nine point lead with a minute twenty left? What was the what was the largest gap there probability? I think it's the six point lead with thirty two seconds left.
Yeah, they were up nine with a minute. They were outscored nine to zero over the final thirty five seconds. And you know, strictly from a basketball standpoint, I felt really bad that john Shire didn't I felt bad for the players that john Shire didn't dial up a different inbounds play. They tried the same inbounds play over and
over and over. They were trapped in the corner. They overcame a Houston player reaching over the end line to try to swap the ball out of I think it was Nipple's hands where Duke got a teck and possession, like the pion James kid is a really good player, just looked panicked to try and inbound the basketball. I honestly, Tom, I have respect for Duke basketball and John Shire.
I thought their coach let them down down the stretch.
Yeah, and then you forget about the Canipple kickout of bounds that went the wrong way, yep, And it was it was a it was a crazy finish to that game. And you're still watching like wow, wow, like how did that happen? And there have been times where what was it the I seem to remember Maryland coming back against Duke down ten? What was it the other way around where it was like wojo, and like I'll never forget if you're up by ten with a minute left. Ever
since that loss happened, I've never forgotten it. Like I've always in my head no matter who it is who's playing, no ten point lead with a minute left is safe, Like I want it to be fifteen. And this is the same sort of game. Well, I will for a long time look at a six point lead differently with thirty three seconds left NBA or college basketball, because that just happened in one of the biggest stages. So look, I think it's been a rough collapse for the Duke program.
You know, when you talk about losing to NC State a year ago, and then losing to UNC and then losing here, It's been a really tough road for Duke. But I am not crying for them, as as a wake forest, a lump based here in Charlotte who grew up a tar Heel fan. I'm not shedding any tears, But like you, I had Duke winning it all and maybe that was an emotional hedge for me.
The game you're talking about, I remember it now. It's the miracle minute. That was Jay Williams. That was that Maryland team with Jan Dixon and Steve Blake Boozer. Yes, I was on Duke, as was Mike dun Levy and Chris Duhont. Duke came down, came back from ten minutes, from ten points down with a minute twenty left to play.
That was two thousand and one. I do remember that game.
Now that you mention it, yes, that was that's the game where it's kind of scarring where once once that happens and you've seen it with your eyes, you're just like, yeah, no, no, ten point lead with a minute left is safe.
And you know, there's I think if this was a bunch of eighteen year olds going at it, you know, like seniors in high school, and Cooper Flag had that kind of collapse, I'd probably put a little bit more weight like why couldn't it be dominated more down the stretch.
But because some of these guys are you know, fifth year seniors and twenty two year olds, twenty three year olds in some cases, like I'm not sweating it for Cooper Flag, but it does give me a lot of excitement, you know, a lot of debate going into the draft that otherwise wouldn't have been there if he had run the table. I feel like we would just be running out of things to say about Cooper Flag because he's
that good. And now we can actually, you know, to a little bit of me down that bone of is there something that we're missing, because I think it is healthy a little bit of a little bit of doubt or a little bit of criticism is healthy for a prospect where the bar isn't so high that he cannot physically, you know, reach those expectations, because the only one that's ever done it, in my opinion is Lebron James. And
I mean, it's just hyping someone to that degree. We did it with Zion Williamson, we did it with Anthony Davis. Cooper Flag, to me, feels like as big of an American prospect as we've had in decades. And Wenby doesn't count because I don't think America really knew what we were talking about with Wemby because he was French and because he hadn't played college hoops over here. But this, this feels like Cooper Flagg losing in the final four. It feels like it might be some healthy adversity for him.
Maybe I'm just I'm rose color glasses here, but I think for Utah the I do not see Cooper Flag returning to Duke for another year, even if let's say another another team that he's not super en series about. I think the odds of him returning actually decreased after that catachlysmic loss.
Tell me what before we do some NBA, Before we say you lose a lot of conversation about this tournament. Specifically, I think there was one, maybe two overtime games. I think there was one game winner. There were no Cinderellas. Now all four number one seeds leads high quality basketball. I thought Saturday was awesome, and I'm excited for the game tonight. But what's the Tom Haberstrow take on the NCAA March Mattis Tournament of twenty twenty five.
I think it's better to have big name programs in the final four than having a Cinderella run and then end in like the Elite eight. Like I think, all things considered, this is going to be great for ratings. It was great for the national conversation. And while as much as I'd like a good Cinderella, a good Saint Peter's, a good George Mason, when it comes to the final four, I feel like we all collectively understand that they don't
really have a real chance of this whole thing. Whereas all four of these teams that were in the final four, you wouldn't be surprised if anyone made the distance, and that kind of intrigue and that kind of those stakes felt bigger with the final four being all the top seeds basically, And I would say it's the same thing for the NBA as much as we don't as much as we say and claim that we want parody, I think what fans really want secretly is Steph Curry going
against Lebron James for the eighteenth time. I think people want that, they want rivalries, they want brand names, household names. In the end, and there's a little hipster in everybody that wants Hey, wouldn't it be cool if it was Memphis versus Indiana in the NBA Finals this year? At the end of the day, I think Boston LA or Cleveland LA in the finals more people would care about that than if it was even Okay See. I feel like people would want to say, it'd be great to
see Okay see up there Cleveland. What a great NBA Finals that would be. But at the end of the day, that would draw pass the audience of a Lakers Cleveland or a Lakers Boston series. And the same thing goes for college basketball. We want the blue bloods, we want the big name programs, we want the number one seeds there at the end. But I can understand the argument that the Cinderella is the fact that we didn't get really any Cinderellas into the Sweet sixteen or close to it,
I can understand. I think the optimal thing is a couple Cinderella's early on, and then we see the big dogs down the stretch.
So Oklahoma City in the midst of a historic run. They just went nineteen and one over a twenty game stretch, but they had lost back to back games at full strength. You know, all their players played at Houston, and then they got trounced by the Lakers. And I will say, as a fan of this game, watching two players like Lebron and Luca and dialing in on them and watching them kind of figure it out is pretty fascinating with
the way they think about the game. But any concern at all, as we only have a handful of games left four or five for most teams with where Oklahoma City finds themselves or is just a couple l's is all?
I think it's two l's with incredibly hot shooting on
the other side, like those are tough shots. The fact is that it took two sun like the surface of the Sun shooting nights to beat OKAC and not to say that they aren't beatable, But if they weren't such outliers from downtown where they're combined against Houston and the Lakers, they shot over fifty percent from three point land, and that's that's the recipe, and that's the recipe for against the ninety six Bulls or the twenty seventeen Warriors, Like
you need to have an outrageously hot shooting night in order to topple the Oklahoma City Thunder. And you can sit here and say like they exploited a weakness, et cetera, et cetera, But it's a make or miss league, and that means the same for Okace and the rest of the team. Is that if the opponents, like the Lakers in the Houston Rockets are gonna shoot lights out against you, they're gonna win. They're gonna win every once in a
while against the Thunder. But in a seven game series, I don't see the Lakers hitting twenty two threes on fifty five percent shooting from downtown. And if they do that, then yeah, they're gonna win the series against Oka See, but I just don't see that being sustainable.
Let me ask you about a couple of teams out this way that I don't really think we've discussed very much. And the Clippers went through this stretch where they lost six of seven, and then since then they're fourteen and three in their last seventeen with wins over the Pistons, the Knicks, the Calves, the Grizzlies, a couple wins over the Knicks, and I could keep going. I mean, there's
some wins over bad teams in there. But you know, every time Kawhi is healthy and every time he decides to be engaged, we're all reminded of like, oh, yeah, that's who he is when he decides if basketball is important and he actually is healthy.
Are you buying any of this?
Are they a legitimate threat to do some sort of special thing?
Come playoff time?
Man, I'm going to let you in on a little teaser here that if you subscribe to my newsletter, Tom Thefinder dot com, you'll see it in there, but I'll give it to your listeners here. And just with the knowledge that I'm going to give you something, please go subscribe Tom Thefinder dot com for your pay doesn't matter. This stat blew me away when I was working on
it over the weekend. I wanted to know when Luca and Lebron are on the floor, or when Fred VanVleet and Alburn Shangoun are on the floor, or John Morant and Jaren Jackson Junior on the floor Haliburton and Siakam. Basically, when each team has their star players on the floor, what is the point differential? How much do they outscore
opponents with their stars on the floor. And the fact of the matter is the Clippers have the best on court net rating for their stars on the floor, meaning when James Harden and Kawhi Leonard are on the floor for the Clippers, they're outscoring opponents by whopping thirteen point two points every one hundred possessions. You look at any star collection in the NBA for all the title contenders Cleveland, Okay,
see Boston Lakers, Minnesota. You look at when the Cleveland Cavaliers have their four all stars on the floor, and I'm counting Jared Allen there too, Garland, Mitchell, Evan Mobley and Jared Allen. They're at plus ten. Kawhi and James Harden and Zubots on the floor, Norm Powell on the floor, Derreck Jones Junior, when Harden and Kohi are on the floor.
They're at plus thirteen. No one else is higher than that, and that really shows that when those two are healthy, James Harden and Kawhi Leonard, they're going to compete at the highest levels. And I mean against okay, see, I mean against the Lakers, I mean against anybody. And one thing that's interesting that kind of got obscured by the huge Lakers win yesterday is that Lebron James and Luka Doncic have the lowest star net rating among all the
title contenders. They're barely above zero, barely above zero, and that is interesting. I know that it's an you know, Luka Doncic just got acquired, he's working back from his injury. But most of the title contenders have their stars. When they're on the floor, they blow out opponents by double digits.
And the Lakers are a huge outlier in this. That Lebron James and Luka Doncic are basically breaking even when they're on the floor together, and that, you know, one game sample size of yesterday barely nudged them above the mendos or the break even line, and that's really interesting. No one else is in the same territory as Ron and Doncic on the floor. They've got to figure out a way to maximize those two guys. And last night
was incredible and Austin Reeves has been great. But it is interesting that the Lakers there have been some blowouts that they've been enduring since that trade. Is this is a source of concern for the Lakers and definitely a source of appreciation for what Kawhi Leonard and he's healthy, and James Harden and he's healthy, what they can do.
Yeah, whenever Kawhi's healthy for an extended period of time, I'm always just reminded of, like, Yeah, there was a moment in time in his career that we actually considered him maybe the best player in this league outside of Lebron. And I'm realizing this in real time. And I'll ask you about one more team before he sets you loose. Like the Clippers, the Timberwolves went through a stretch they went two and six over an eight game period. They even lost to the Utah Jazz, which does not happen
very much. Yeah, and then after that they're all so fourteen and three in their last seventeen with some good wins, including win over the Nuggets, and I could keep going, you know, two wins over Denver. So are you buying the recent serge from Minnesota? What are their chances to make some noise come playoff time as that's right around the corner.
So for my title tiers that just came out this morning, I actually upgraded the Clippers to a four star tier and the other team on that tier the Minnesota Timberwolves. They're elite on both ends of the floor. They're tenth on offense adjusted for their opponent schedule and fifth defensively adjusted for their opponents strength. So this team is top five on defense, top ten on offense, and with their health on their side, now that they're healthy, they're really
deep and they're good. And nas Reed I think is the better option if to Rudy Gobert in crunch time and in the postseason, rather than Julius Randall. But that's a good problem to have, like when you got two studs there. And I'm lower on Julius Randall than most people. But when you have the option to have a stretch five or a stretch four like nas Reed instead of a bully like Julius Randall, if you need to go one on one and a guy to get you a bucket.
Probably lean towards Julius Randall. If Anthony Edwards is, you know, fatigue down the stretch or dealing with foul trouble, don't want to get a charge against him or anything like that. You got options. And this team with doctor Devincenzo also stepping up his game being one of the most efficient scorers in the NBA over the last couple of months, this team is a four star contender. I still think that the Golden State Warriors are in a tier above
along with OKC, Boston and Cleveland. I got four teams in the five star tier and that lost yesterday by the Golden State Warriors. Iman Thompson, what a performance by the Houston Rocket is to absolutely shut down Steph Curry. It's it's gonna be an absolute dog fight in the Western Conference. I'm not ready for it, Like I'm I'm already stressing out by all the good teams that are gonna get eliminated in this play in tournament. We're looking,
I'm telling you, this is crazy. We're looking at the possibility of the Lakers getting the number two seed in the Western Conference or being eliminated in the play in tournament. That's what the next week is gonna tell us, because they have the opportunity to get the number two seed or the number eight seed. And if you're in the number eight seed, your two losses away from being eliminated from the playoffs before they even start. And that's where
we're at with the Lakers. They can be anywhere from number two and number eight. And that's just that goes for Minnesota, that goes for Golden State, the Ghost for Houston, Memphis. It's gonna be crazy and I can't wait for it.
Tom, Where can people go find all the work?
Buddy my x feed Tom Haverstrow also Tom underscore Haberstrow on Instagram. If you love Top Chef, got a Top Chef podcast going right now now that's kicking in the high gear, So go check that out in tomdefinder dot com.
Do you really think Zach is smarter than you are when it comes to basketball?
Uh? Yeah, he's a big bully, that guy. I don't wanna. I don't want to get on his bad side.
So yeah, all right, yeah, Well, I appreciate the time, man, have a good week.
We'll chat all right with Tom Haberstrom,