Tuesday Afternoon more NBA Basketball with one of our favorites, Lee Ellis, ESPN Australia, head of Global Pickup. But Lee, quite frankly, I don't mean to make you feel awkward or uncomfortable, a little bit of a pioneer. I don't know that I've ever really talked to you about this. Yeah, you were among the first podcasters covering the NBA basketball.
Is that a fair statement?
Well somewhat, yes. I mean I wouldn't say I was the pioneer. I think that really title goes to Ski Pass and JD because they created a podcast before even I knew what a podcast was. But I certainly did come in and ride their coattails for a while there, and we began the show on NBA TV back in twenty thirteen. So you know, I wouldn't say I was the number one draft pick in that sense. I'd say I was a free agent signing. But I certainly like to feel that I made a contribution to the show.
And you know, now it's amazing how many people. In fact, just today, here I am in Indianapolis, a guy came out to me on the street and he said, man, I remember you from the bus Jones Day's in Toronto, So that was quite a kind of freaky to sort of still hear that just out on the street, because you know, that was at a different time I think, you know, I don't think when the guys originally started it not even Twitter or Facebook or anything like that
even existed, and they were doing a podcast and they've grown it into something that continues today. In fact, I believe it's going to be twenty years in January from when Skeets, Tats and jd did their very very first podcast back in JD's the basement of his house. I think it was back in two thousand and six in Toronto. So it's quite remarkable, how, you know, our journeys, everybody's
journey is slightly different. But yes, the seeds of where I am today were planted in Toronto about fifteen or sixteen years ago.
For myself, what was the name of the pod you guys had on NBA TV? Was it No Dunk's? Was it the Starters? I honestly can't remember what the name of the NBA TV pod was.
Yeah, yeah, we were the Starters on MBA TV and that was the TV show and a podcast. But yeah, We did that for six seasons, and it was honestly one of those sort of pinched me moments. Literally every day. In fact, I remember saying to my wife, like, I can't believe on NBA TV wearing plaid shirts. I'm talking to my friends about basketball, you know. So one day Shack came in while we were recording, got me in a headlock, and I'm like, I don't know how to
explain this to anybody. Is you know. People would ask me like, hey, do you get on NBA TV, like that's a cool job, And I'm like, I can't really tell you because I don't know. There wasn't like a blueprint that I followed. It was just a few things happened, and the next thing I know, I had the biggest man in the world get me in a headlock on TV. So it's crazy.
It's funny, man, because I can. I mean, look, I'm a basketball sicko like you are. And so I watch NBA TV and I can remember watching back in the day and I was watching just some recap or highlight you and they're like, hey, don't forget tomorrow. At whatever time, tune in to the Starters, a basketball podcast I'm like, what are you saying? What is this? I don't even know what any of this is. And you know, now
everybody has a podcast. We podcast this show, and if you're in the ecosystem of media and sport period, chances are if you don't have a standalone pod, you pod your live show like we do here. And would you characterize it as something that was kind of like beyond anything you dared to dream about as far as how you got into it.
I always find it.
Interesting to hear the origin story of how people were able to carve out their piece of real estate in this ecosystem that's really hard to find real estate in.
Yeah, I mean, that's a great way of putting it because you know, again, no one really knew what it was or what it was going to become. And I remember again in the early days speaking to those guys because they had normal jobs, skeets passed and JD who I'm referring to here, So they would record their pod at like six o'clock in the morning over Skype, you know, put the podcast out there, then go about their daily jobs. And so there was no money in it. They weren't
like sitting back rolling in money. They had to put all their own money and time into it, and j had just become a father and they were just trying
this thing that no one really knew what happened. But because at the time Apple iTunes, I think it was still called then you know, people from around the world started listening to it because basketball is such a global sport, and that encouraged the guys and it inspired them to keep going, and eventually they made it to The Score, which is an independent sports TV network in Toronto, and from their NBA TV got hold of it and moved
us all down to Atlanta. And you know, so again the story itself is sort of even when I'm saying this to you, and I've said this on numerous podcasts over the years, I'm sort of like, man, it's amazing how many things just had to sort of line up and be ready to go. And you know, getting visas even to come and work in America is not easy as well. We have to somehow convince the immigration lawyers that we were, you know, worthy of getting work visas
and things like that. And then I remember again, you know, when we're doing a podcast in Toronto, there was no time limit, so you know, you can go for an hour or an hour and a half or whatever. We came to the NBA TV and we had a forty four minute show daily that we had to hit and I remember just thinking like, oh my god, this is like crazy. You can't be as loose on TV. You certainly have to dress it a little nice, so you have to be a little more, you know, professional in
how you approach it. You can't certainly can't swear and things like that that you can on a podcast. So it was a real adjustment. But I think we all got motivated and inspired by so many people who saw us as non former players, just fans of the game trying to bring an entertaining angle to it. Like we we never claimed to be former pro players or anything
like that. We were just guys who you know, started something new that grew into a TV show, And you know, our love for the game is what so many people around the world I think could relate to and connect with.
And I think it's really cool. Man.
I always applaud people that have the courage to just try stuff like we love this, so let's go try it, Let's see what it turns into. Let's give it some effort. Let's give it some you know, some real energy and resources. And yeah, stories like that are really cool. All right, let's before we get to nick Pacers tonight. I said this earlier, Lee, I want to see if you agree. I think Minnesota last night beats almost every team in
the NBA except the team they played right like. And there's a lot of conversation today about Aunt this and Julius randall that, and certainly there's some things that we can get into that are probably fair. I thought last night was far more about who Oklahoma City is as opposed to who Minnesota is not.
I was quick to.
Be a little bit skeptical about Okase's ability to run through the playoffs, only because we haven't seen it before. But in a vacuum, last night was an incredibly entertaining basketball game, and I think if you're Minnesota, you're just kind of like they might be better than us and everybody else. Give me your thoughts on that.
Yeah, well, and I think you know what you're saying with the Thunder is they were the number one seed with a you know, by a mile in the Western Conference, whereas the Wolves were the six seed any other season. If you had the one versus the sixth seed. The number one said should win fairly comfortably. Now, Game three was that season on the line type of response from Minnesota, and you could almost see Oklahoma City kind of let go of the rope there a little bit once he
got out of hand in the second half. But then they regathered and regrouped and sort of showed last night they flexed their muscles a little bit more, saying like, hey, we are better than this team. They have got a few vulnerabilities and I think they exposed them last night.
And I hope to give a lot of credit to Shay Gildas Alexander, because you know, he's almost gone to that point where he was a big fan favorite, and now people are starting to turn on him, criticizing him for the free throw embellishment whatever, you know, whatever that really means. But he's gone out there and led his
team and he handled everything. And I put a lot of it actually back into that Denver Nuggat series as well, where they looked bad against the Nuggets at times, but as really good teams do they get the job done, and I think that's important. I think that does sort of build you up and get you ready for the next round. Whereas the Timberwolves, I mean, when you have a win like that, I think it was forty two points in game three, it's almost it's almost like too much.
They didn't have to fight, they didn't really have to do everything. They just sort of everything they threw up went in. But it wasn't like they had something really solid to fall back on because last night they kind of got exposed a little bit. And Anthony Edwards. I heard what he said after the game, because he'd been criticized and not taking though shots. He said he made
the right place. Maybe he did. I think there is an argument there, but you also expect your start to sort of say, well, it's a bit like Karl Anthony Town's here in Indiana on Monday night where or Sunday night, excuse me, where he was like, right, I'm putting my team on my back and we are not losing this game. And I didn't really see that from Anthony Edwards, like
he didn't go down fighting. He played well enough, but it wasn't the sort of epic performance where you thought, man, he left it all on the table there last night. I think he had a little bit more in the Chamber and we'll see. Now they obviously go to a must win game in Oklahoma City, but you know, and there's people saying, ah man, Oklahoma City, like you know, the NBA doesn't want that. Well, I'm the opposite. I
think this is great for the league. I think there's a bit more parody, there's a bit more evenness, and every team is a chance, and we're seeing that with you know, we're likely to get Oklahoma the City and Indiana in the finals. I'm fine with it. I think these both fun teams to watch. I love watching the young stars emerge, and I think we've set up for
a really, really fun finals. However it turns out, because the other one is maybe we get Minnesota versus New York, who, of course had that incredible trade right before training camp started last season, so that would be a fun way to cut the season as well. But you know, I think no matter what happens, people are going to criticize the league and criticize the game and things like that, because that's the nature of social media these days. But as a fan and as an analyst, I'm really enjoying it.
So let's dig into the ants stuff for a minute.
Because you know Game three he comes out of the gates completely on fire, and certainly, if you want to see more engaged in Game three out of the gates, I guess I can.
Concede that point.
But what I saw last night from Oklahoma City is Mark Dagnola lets to move off of the Hartenstein stuff. He puts chat into the five, he goes small, and then on every dribble, handoff, on every pick and roll, on every off ball action, you have first of all lout Dort who plays defense like he's a middle linebacker, Jalen Williams who's like all NBA defense caliber, Shay who's six 's eight, and then either Alex Caruso or Case and Wallace that are both just absolute dogs on the perimeter.
And they blitzed Aunt on every single pick and roll one hundred percent of his drives. He was double teamed. Every time he put the ball in the deck. They ran two defenders at him. Lee, I don't know what you do if your Aunt, because they're just like you go back and watch it. There's no room for him
to get his shots off. And he did make the right play, I thought more often than not, and his teammates did knock down shots, so you know, you hear the inside guys like Kenny always talks about, if you're one of the great players, I need you to take eighteen to twenty shots, then I know kind of where you're at. And if those shots are forced in the face of two and three defenders, they're not high quality looks.
So what was Ant kind of supposed to do when the OKC game plan was clearly we are going to throw two of these dog defenders at him every time he gets the ball, and.
We are going to make other players beat us.
And they almost did, because they scored forty one points in the fourth quarter against one of the best defensive teams that we've seen in a long time. I'm just not sure what Ann was supposed to do last night in the face of that game plan that was designed to take him entirely out of it.
Yeah, I mean, it's again, it's a good question, and it's a fair way to sort of analyze it, because you know, we always sort of say like we want the guys to step up and make the big play, and that doesn't necessarily mean make the big shot. I guess, so, you know, from what I saw, had a couple of
those drives where he went inside fairly quickly. Now, if you know the double is coming, then maybe that's on the coaching staff there of Chris Pinch, but it's also maybe on Anthony Edwards to get into that action a little quicker to try to beat that double, or you know, see if he can get a switch to get a defender that you prefer to have there. I mean, it's always we're all Monday morning quarterbacks after the game and we can you know, analyze and criticize and things like that.
But he had a couple of moves because he is so athletic and he is so fast that he can cruise inside to me, you know, seemingly at will. But last night he did it a couple of times, but then he sort of hesitated. And again maybe the leadership from him is like, I don't want to have to do it all myself. I want to show trust and
faith in my teammates. And you know, again, there's no real right answer, because if he has one of those games where he goes for forty five points or fifty points or something like that, then maybe people will criticize him anyway and say, hey, you've got to trust your
teammates more. But it's a tough one. I mean, I remember Jason Tatum's, fortunately his last game of the season in New York City against the next He had forty two points and he was carrying his team, you know, putting them into a spot where they were going to win the game. Now they ultimately didn't, but what I saw from him was a leader who was like, I know these other guys can do it, but tonight, I'm
going to step up and do it. And he was on the way to doing that before I unfortunately got injured. So there's always you know, again, it's always easy to look back, I think, and sort of pinpoint things and say you should have done this, he should have done that.
Either way, I think Anthony Edwards will learn from last night's game and we'll see how it plays out in Game five and not just for this season but beyond, because I truly think he has got that elite level competitiveness in him and ultimately he'll become better for it.
Before we move out East.
A thought on Julius Randall, who, in fairness, has had the best spring that he's ever had as an NBA player.
As a Nick fan, I can speak to it.
I always was skeptical of the way the previous Nick team was built only because j Allen's awesome. But if your number two offensive option is Julius Randall, you're going to run into games like we've run into over the past two where he is watching from the fourth quarter, like he's watching from the bench in the fourth quarter, and I just for all the ant stuff, I'm looking at Julius one of seven, five points, five turnovers. And the problem with Julius Randall, this has always been the deal.
If he's not scoring, if he's not involved offensively and making shots, he's just not as engaged defensively.
And we saw it last night.
So what's your take on what we've seen from Julius Randall over the past couple of games.
Yeah, well, I mean go back to those first two games in ok See, and he was really aggressive from the start. They're almost like he was like, Okay, I'm going to show the years of my experience here because you're hitting freeze and he was aggressively on for a shot. But certainly that has been the criticism of Julius Randles throughout his career, where some nights he looked like an all NBA caliber player, and other nights like last night, he does seem to be sleepwalking a little bit more.
And I think that can assistancy is tough for a lot of players because you have those good games and then all of a sudden things aren't going your way. What do you have as a backup? When do you go to Plan B? And Julius doesn't really seem to have that, Whereas you know, you would like to see him go inside again, maybe try to draw some fout,
get some high percentage looks, whatever it is. If the three is not falling, if the mid range is not falling, have something else there in your bag, And at times he does. But again it's a little bit frustrating because there are times where it just seems like he's just not focused on the game. And again, last night was a must win really for the Wolves. I mean, obviously they're still statistically in it, but for all intents and purposes,
are going to lose in five games here. And it was just a frustrating way because I thought, even though it was close last night, I always felt that the thunder were in control. And I think you know that that was sort of reflected in the score. In the end, the Wolves gave it everything, but ultimately they just didn't have that same or that same aggression that they had, you know in Game three which got them that huge win.
And you know, the Thunder were able to sort of overcome that like a pretty embarrassing loss there, and they were able to bounce back a lot quicker, whereas it's almost like maybe the Wolves thought all their work was done. Who knows, But you know, we'll see the playoffs this year then, and you know, every series seems to be a little bit crazy, So there is a chance, you know, if you sort of think about it, that the Wolves could still extend this series and get themselves back into it.
But I think they probably blew their.
Chance last night, all right, before we get to tonight Sunday's game in Indiana, you know, I was ready to turn it off in the second quarter and ready to say, okay, this is a sweep.
The next go down twenty.
You know, one of the more under talked about dynamics of Sunday Lee, in my opinion, is the way New York closed the second quarter to get it down to thirteen. Now, that doesn't sound like a lot but when they went down twenty and Halliburton gets the steal, there's a dunk. It just felt like there was no way back, even though the next have come back down from you know, come back from down twenty points a couple of times against the Celtics, the Pacers just felt like they were
built differently. When Nie Smith hurt his ankle, that changed
the scope of the game. On Friday, I said, a couple of different times, can Tom Thibodeau find ten to fifteen minutes for Landry Shammitt, for Delon Wright even precious to you who did not play, And he was able to find some minutes for some of his bench players, and Jalen was in foul trouble, so of course he was limited as far as his minutes go, which I think is good because the starters didn't look like they were dying down the stretch in Game three because he
was able to get some rest. You know, Kat has that stretch to the start of the fourth. It reminds you like how special he is when he's engaged. But your main takeaways with how New York came back from that deficit and got it done on Sunday.
Well, it was quite interesting because TJ. McConnell had a press availability yesterday and he was asked like, did you guys maybe take you from the gas a little bit when they were up twenty with about seven minutes to go in second quarter, and he said, you know, yeah, subconsciously you do. You sort of feel like you've got
the game in hand a little bit. And then the Knicks made a little push to get it close with a half time, and then it was still about double digits going into the fourth and it felt like then Karl Anthony Town's had four points and four rebounds, was like, man, the headlines are not going to be kind to him tomorrow. You know, it's like this guy has not stepped up.
And instead he went out there and delivered one of the best performances, not just for the fourth quarter in about a seven minute stretch there where he had twenty points and eight rebounds, hit the big three, and most importantly and most impressively, he attacked the rim too. He went at Miles Turner, he had a huge and one dunk. He had another layup where he just went straight at Turner and said, you're either going to block me or
I'm getting a basket. Here and both times he made it turn it into a three point play, and so we know that that is what Karl Anthony Towns is capable of, and it took basically the next season to be on the line there for him to bring it out. And so now I'm really excited to see the game.
I'm going to be heading to the arena in about half an hour or so here because I really want to see if Karl Anthony town starts the game like that, and if he comes out and he says, hey, I am the best player out there and these guys can't defend me one on one, and I want to see him put his team in a position where they don't have to come back from twenty points down, they don't have to sort of be in that position where it's like okay, all or nothing right now, instead have some
sort of a comfortable game, because I think that's what the Knicks and Karl Anthony Towns are capable of. We just don't see it consistently. But that was another remarkable game. I mean, Jalen Brunson was in poun trouble. He had four in the first half. Pounds is often in foun trouble. Landry Shammick came out, gave him a decent little stretch there, hit a couple of baskets and the lot right another guy, another Vet. I think he can handle the possessions better
than campaign anyway for it for a few minutes. And so Tom Thibodeau, he obviously mixed up the starting lineup as well. He went with Mitchell Robinson. He changed things. Now didn't necessarily work straight away because they were down to twenty as we discussed, but they got the win.
And so now I'm really fascinated to see does Tom Tibbert now go a little deeper into that bench and not necessarily with more players, but give those guys like Shaman and Write a little bit more trust and a little bit more time to save the legs of guys, you know, like Bridges and like Brunton who have just played heavy, heavy minutes. Because I think that's the only real way the Knicks are going to survive and extend
this series. They've got to get a few more guys a few more minutes and hold up their end of the bargain. Because the Pacers, who may be without Nie Smith tonight hasn't been announced yet, they can write a lot like that because they already play nine or ten guys, and I know Rick Carlile has some guys like Ben Sheppard who can come out there and play some really good minutes. So the Knicks saw something, I think in game three, and now we're going to be really interested
to see if Tibeau sticks with that. In game four there.
Were plus twelve and the seventeen minutes without Jalen and minus six and the thirty one minutes which he played. That's, of course, not an indictment on who Jalen Brunson is as a player, but it does make you curious about some of the defensive potential with some of the other lineups. With Carlisle, with his gamesmanship, of course, has made a couple of comments that have been somewhat interesting. But before I say you lose, Indiana's a two point five point
favorite tonight. If Nie Smith can't go, my guess it's Ben Shephard, who's been solid as a perimitive defensive player and a guy that can knock down threes as well.
So before I set you loose, do you have Aleen? Do you have Aleen? As far as how do you think we're going to see it go to night.
That's a pretty good line. I favor the Paces because again, I think they were somewhat embarrassed how they lost Game three, and they know they stole home court advantage, which is great, but the worst thing is if you have home court advantage and you give it back. So I think they know that, you know Game five is going to be tough no matter what in New York City, that we
know we're going there. I think the Pacers want to make sure they take care of business tonight because they don't want to get into a situation where the Knicks potentially turn this around and get up three too, because we know Game seven, if it goes that far, would be back in New York City. The Pace has won their last year, of course, but again every season, every series is different, So I think the Paces are okay tonight, but I think it is going to be a pretty
tight one. I think it's going to be a low scoring affair. I think both teams are going to try to keep it a little bit slower than normal and just keep it tight. So I'll take the Paces well. I think they probably do cover, but not by much.
Where can people go find your Worklee and follow along with the journey.
Yeah, just Lee Ellis on all the social channels there, Twitter, Instagram, TikTok l e I g H d l l I F and yeah, I'll be at the arena tonight, so I'll be sharing what I see behind the scenes and all that good stuff.
Thank you, sir, enjoy the game. We'll chat soon, Okay, thanks having me.
Le ellis old school podcaster legend as far as NBA podcasters go. He is in Indianapolis for the Knicks and the Pacers tonight at Lee Ellis on socializ. He reference stops by today courtesy of our friends at Courtland Roofing. There, you're reroofing and roof repair experts with over twenty years of experience.
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