Batting lead off with one of our favorites, and I'm told he's in the heart of New York City, in midtown Manhattan is where we find our friend Lee Ellis on a Tuesday afternoon.
Lee, Happy Tuesday, sir. How are you fine?
Thanks Bence, Thanks very much for having me.
How's the how's the weather? How's how are the conditions out in New York City?
Actually beautiful? Really nice sunny day. Not too human as well. I live in Atlanta, so we're already sinking hot in the humidity, but it's nice and breezy. The streets are alive, and you can sort of feel, you know, a bit of energy. The Nicks haven't been in a position like this before, and so I was down at Madison Square Garden before, and you know, you can sort of tell everyone's pretty excited and looking forward to Game one tomorrow night.
Oh, I've got the forecast up. It does look lovely in midtown Manhattan. Good for you.
So you reference that you can kind of feel the buzz in the city. Are Are you noticing people wearing Nick jerseys and hats and such? Are you are you seeing a lot of Nick paraphernalia out about New York.
Yeah, absolutely, and even one Devin book Sun's jersey which sort of slid up to me a little bit. But other than that, yeah, I mean again, just the energy around the garden there, you know, just before, like everyone's sort of excited and they can't wait for it to happen here tomorrow. And I because, as I said, they just haven't been in this position, this far into the
playoffs for so long. And not only that, but I think they are a real chance too, because you know, I don't think anyone realistically had them beating the Celtics, and they did that quite comfortably and quite impressively. And now they go from having, you know, go from being underdog in the conference semifinals to being favorite in the finals. So it's quite a remarkable position that the Knicks find themselves in right now.
You know, lee the last team to win a championship with a ball dominant, smallish guard as the best player really was Detroit back in the Isaiah Thomas you know, nineteen eighty eight, nineteen eighty nine days. And that's who the Necks are now. It's not just Jalen, but if we're honest, he really is the engine that makes them go What stands out most you about how Jalen Brunson
has answered every question that's been thrown at him. A lot of people, as you probably recall, were very skeptical that the next decided to go all in on him, and I'll admit that he's better than I ever thought he could be.
What stands out most to you about his growth?
I think it's that continual clutch performances. If you go back to the Piston series, he'd really deliver it on the road in Detroit. He closed out that series with a huge three Remember they were down seven or eight points with about a minute togo in Game six and Brunton stepped up and knocked down the shot. And then
the same thing in the Celtics series. And again I've got to give so much respect and admiration to sib Tom Thibodeaux and the entire team because they were getting smoked by the Celtics in that second round, you know, down twenty in three games and came back and won.
And so it's not like that was you know, that can happen once and you can say that was an anomaly, But then when it happened a couple of times and then when it goes back to the other previous series, it's like this team has got some real resilience and some real spot to them, And it starts with Brunson because he's never afraid to take the shot. He's never afraid to put the ball in his hands. He's had
some really good defenders on him too. I start Thompson while only young, very athletic, very fast, and you know, we've right up in Brunson's grill a lot. And then the Celtics have multiple guys they can throw it in, Jalen Brown and Derek White, you know, all those goes through holidays, another one, really good high quality defenders. But every time Brunson has a chance, he wants the ball in his hands. And sometimes he makes the right pass,
sometimes he hits the right shot. He doesn't, you know, nail every shot. But I like the fact that he doesn't, you know, miss the shot, and then all of a sudden go into his shell. He won't be afraid of missing a shot. He just wants to take it because that's what they employ him to do. That's what he's paid to do. And he was a Clutch Player of the Year in the regular season and then he's gone
on and proven that in the playoffs. So you know, this is why I'm sort of in this position now where I look at the Knicks and I think they haven't you know, they didn't get lucky in the playoffs. Now the Pistons, of course, weren't that experience. Then they had to go out and beat the defense champs on the road, and they did that so well. And now even if they get down big, it's like they've got guys who can get them back into it. Mcal Bridges his offense in the last quarters has been really good.
Karl Anthony Towns has been, you know good most of the time. He's had a few down games, but they've got options, they've got weapons, and then when the game is there to be won, the ball goes into Bruntson's hands every time, and everyone on that team is confident he's going to make the right decision. So I think that comparison to Isaiah Thomas is actually very very good
because they're about the same size. You know, they're tough, they're resilience, and now Brunton has got, you know, a catalog of big shots to sort of prove that he's up to the moment, So.
Away from Jalen and even Kat for a moment, because I think it's safe to say more often than not those two. Certainly, Jalen's going to get his, and you know Kat has a complex and kind of varied history and big games is some good, some bad, and that's you know, I can't have the way goes. But the three headed monster on the wing, you know some of Cal Bridges who they traded five first round picks for Josh Art, who I kind of feel like is the heart beats I didn't even mean to do that of
that team. And then you know og Is, even though you know at times the shot can get loose, he was so good against the Wings for the Celtics and the playoffs and has been one of the best perimeter defenders in the NBA all year long. So what do you make of what they need to get from those three against the pacer team that just has a bunch of pit bulls and they want to fight everybody.
Well, they can all defend, like you mentioned there, they're all sort of Tom Thibodeau guys. You know, they know that they're expected to put in on the defensive end primarily, and they do that, but all of them can also hit those threes, which is really the modern game the way it is. You need to be able to shoot, and you need to be able to at least be relied on to knockdown some shots. Now, some games you might have Josh Hart gone for twenty five or thirty
points sport og even Bridges can get that. It's usually not all three of them, but it's usually they almost rotate that around, which is again, it's great for the Knicks because they've got options and they know they're going to get it out mostly of one of those guys every game. Now, when I look at Bridges, I don't love his shot selection at times, and I don't love his shooting mechanics, but he's effective. And again he did that really well in fourth quarters against the Boston Celtics.
So you know, I don't think the Knicks are super deep, but they've got by. If you throw in Mitchell, Robinson and deuci Guide, they've got seven players pretty much is the length of the rotation, but all of them go out there and contribute primarily on the defensive end. But McBride is not as good as those guys, but certainly Mitchell Robinson is as well, so everyone who plays, you know, you just sort of know that that's what Tom Tibodeau is looking for. Firstly, can you go out there and
defend more than one position? And pretty much all of those guys can, so, you know, the Paces, this is a really interesting matchup because the Paces have got so many guys as well who can go and get their own bucket. You know, Pascal Siakham and Tyrese Haliburton. You know, Niece Smith's been shooting the ball really well from three, and then Myles Turner as well, he's going to the floor. So everyone's kind of got a good matchup. Everyone can
kind of hurt each other. And that's why I think we're really set up for a great series here because it should be tough, it should be tight, but honestly, we should see some really good, high quality basketball because
you're going to see defense from both ins. And I think that's the word I keep coming back to you because for so long when the Knicks stunk, they just look bad defensively, and I think now Tom Thibodeaux has finally got to that point where he's been able to implement his style and everyone's brought into it and everyone understands what their job is and now we're seeing the results of that.
You know, it's interesting. One more thing on the next, and I do want to ask you about the pacers specifically, because they deserve a lot of credit for what they've been doing. And you know, I've known Tom Thibodeau for a number of years. He was an assistant in New York for Jeff Van Gundy, and I certainly respect the man. But when you're up one hundred and ten to seventy four with five minutes left in the fourth, isn't it time to pull your players?
Well, yes, that's the one area that I think care. And you know I've noticed because I've been at a lot of the Knicks games and here in the playoffs and in the regular season. I saw it too. When the Knicks are in Atlanta, Rip Brunson is often the guy who has to go up and say to him, come on, this is enough enough, because you know, it's the one stubborn trait that Tibbs has that he's still
is very reluctant to give up. And that is to you know, basically acknowledge when a game is in hand, and you know, if you go back to last season in the playoffs, you know, Jalen Brunson broke down, and if you go back to when he's in the Chicago Bulls day, Joki Noah still talks about it on podcasts now, like those guys you know, got ran into the ground by Tibbs, and so I think he has loosened up a little over the years, but he still could improve
on that. Because I was watching that the other night with the closeout game, and Tad was on the bench and they were up you know, shirt whatever it was, and he came back in and I was like, what are you doing. You're just playing with fire at this point. But fortunately everyone survived, and you know, by closing it out in six they've got an extra couple of days of rest. But yeah, it's one of those things that I think Gibbs still needs to really work on.
So Lee, as you know, the Cleveland Cavaliers, led by our old buddy Donovan Mitchell, had a historic regular season and you know, the favorites to play in the Eastern Conference Finals were the Calves and the Celtics. We've already discussed the next beating Boston and I'm sure if you're a Cavs fan, you can lean into we weren't fully healthy Donovan go saw him after the second round once again, and of course it's not all his fault. When he is really cooking, he's as dynamic as any ball in
hand offensive generator in the league. Now, I do think and I've always believed this because I saw it out here when Donovan tends to put blinders on and do his own thing, while it's really dynamic and very effective, I just I've never believed that's conducive to winning team basketball because other teammates kind of get a little bit in the mode where they're watching him do his thing and they're not boxing out, they're not playing defense the way they need to.
I've always more of a fan of a.
Team overall approach, but Indiana deserves a lot of credit. And I found it really interestingly after the final game to hear Kenny Atkinson just admit like they're a level ahead of us, they're better than we are right now. And Rick Carlisle echo like it was interesting to hear him say, we're just on fire. We're just we've got it clicking at the right time. So what stands out most to you about the way the Pacers beat the Calves and if you're a Cavs fan, what are you hoping for this offseason?
Yeah, well, I think with the Pacers, they kind of snuck up on pretty much everyone because they started off the season badly, and Tyrese Halliburton was bad and maybe there was a bit of an Olympic hangover for him. But I think we sort of thought we saw the Pacers in the conference finals last year they got swept, and the way they started this season was like, oh, maybe they aren't that good. But their record closing the season was forty two and fourteen, so they've been playing
really well. But because the Celtics and the Caves and the Knicks were so far ahead of them, I think everyone just thought we go on Boston and Cleveland in the Eastern Conference finals here and didn't really give anyone else much of a chance. But you're right. I mean, Rick Carlyle, you know, he's a pretty good coach, and you know, he's a pretty consistent coach. He might not be, you know, the most charismatic coach out there, but he
certainly gets guys to play to a high level. And that's what I noticed about the Pacers is once tyri Is Haliburton got to go, and because he wasn't an All Star this season, but he certainly picked his game up in the second half of the season. But also guys like Nemhard and Nie Smith, as I mentioned earlier, really really important role players. You know, they can hit those threes, you know, they play hard defense, they don't
need the ball in their hands all that much. And then Pascal Siakam, who was an All Star this season, he was also fantastic in the second part. So Indiana had one of those seasons that was pretty much idea where people were overlooking you and dismissing him, and then they come into the playoffs and they cruise along, you know, and they beat the Bucks, who you know, Lillard obviously was banged up somewhat there, but even if he wasn't,
I think the Pacers still win that series. And then yeah, the you know, it was called an upset because they took down the Cleveland Cattle is, but they beat the Cash three to one in the regular season, so it's probably not that much of an upset really. It was
more just that the Pacers matched up well. There was some injury concerns of course there with the Cads, but I think that was really only for one game when MOBILEI, Hunter and Garland were out glad Mister first game though as well, But ultimately we saw, yeah, you know, Donovan is a great playoff performer. You know, he's had some huge moments, but he hasn't been able to turn those
into playoff success. He's never gone past the second round, so there is something that's not quite working there that even if Donovan goes for forty I think he finished averaging forty one in that series, but what good is
that if you're losing five games, you know. So the Cabs a really disappointing end to a very promising season and where they go in the off season from here now, I don't think they make too many changes because I think overall they probably just look back at what they did wrong and they think, Okay, you know, we need to sort of make some improved from within, because overall, I think they've got a good roster. Evan Mobley Defensive Player of the Year. Donovan, we've already talked about him,
and Darius was an All Star this year. Jared Allen has been an All Star, you know, they're well balanced, they've got three point shooting. They picked up DeAndre Hunter for their six man at the trade deadline here, so
that you know they've got all the pieces. Maybe it was just one of those seasons where you know, they were caught looking ahead a little bit and thought that they sort of leave their own height where it was like, hey, we're going straight back to the conference finals the year and you know, didn't really give the Paces the respect they deserve. Kenny Atkinson remember, Coach of the Year, well
deserving as well. I mean he I thought I saw, you know, watching the Cavs this season, they were a lot like those Brooklyn Nets teams that Kenny Atkinson had, Remember, they were fun to watch. They really seemed to be all on the same page and cheering each other on. And it felt like, you know, the Cavs were on the path here to the conference finals before before sort of you know that they couldn't quite get it done
there in the conference. Semi so very interesting season. Again, I don't think they'll decide to blow it up or anything like that. I think they'll just try to take care of business a little bit better next season, because overall a lot of their guys are under contract. I think they're a better team than they performed in the playoffs, and maybe sometimes a loss like this can actually help
you in the future, so we'll find out. But you know, Indiana again, they the way they ended the season was just so impressive that they find themselves in this position. And I think, you know, a lot of people around the league may see this a surprise, but I don't think the Indiana Pacers themselves are all that surprise that they're in this position.
Moving out this way, Lee, I was surprised to learn this morning when I was doing little reading a prep for the show, that the two best records in pro basketball since March first belonged to Oklahoma City, who has the best record, and then the Minnesota Timberwolves, who have the second best record. Let's start with the Minnesota side of things, and this is a team that's been together now for a few years, and they had a nice
little playoff run last year. Of course, you need good fortune in the NBA playoffs, and you always hate injuries. It was a bumber to see Tatum go down, and nobody wants to watch Golden's stay without watching Stephen Curry. But Minnesota won't apologize. What do you make of their route to the Western Conference Finals? What stands out?
Yeah, honestly a little bit like the Paces in that when they made that trade at the start of the season for Towns, you know, trading him away. I thought that was a bad move. I thought Towns has been there, they're finally having some success, and then they blow it up. I think for a weaker move in bringing Devincenzo and Julius Randall. But after that sluggish start, and remember they had to basically win on the last day of the season just to avoid the play in, they've really gotten
them together and been super impressive. And I think Chris Finch deserves a lot of credit because he's got them playing at this high level where they were really convincing against the Warriors. Of course you mentioned no Steph Curry, but even still they lost that first came remember at home when Steph left early on, so there was more that pressure of expectation like, oh, you can't lose possibly now to the Warriors without Steph. And they went out
and won the next four games. And Anthony Edwards, I mean, he's ready, he's ready for the hype. He loves being the center of attention, and he's gone out there and delivered. And so you know, last season against the Mavericks, I saw Anthony Edwards on a podcast somewhere basically just sort of shaking his head at what Luca was able to do. But you could sort of see that fight in the eyes of Edwards, in the way that he spoke was like he wasn't feeling sorry for himself. Instead he realized
what it took to get to the next level. And so now he's back here and I think last season, of course, with Team USA in Paris, he showed, you know, he learned from those guys like Kevin Durant and like Steph and Lebron. Being around those guys really helped him understand how important it is to take care of your body and to be ready and to embrace those moments when they come. So, you know, really good stuff here from the Timberwolves. I mean, you guys of course know
Rudy very well there in Utah as well. I mean, he has been excellent at time. You know, he sort of fluctuates a little bit, but when he's good, he's very very good. And you know, Rudy's he's been in the playoffs, like, he's an experienced veteran and he plays such a role and he's going to have a huge role in this series now against the Thunder because they have the big guys Chet, Holmgren and Hartenstein. So he's
going to have his work cut out for him. But as we saw again against the Warriors, if you are able to really utilize Rudy on the offensive end, I think he grows even more on the defensive end and there'll be opportunities there for him. And you know, the Timberwolves are ready. I think they're in a really good spot. It's going to be a great series. I mean, obviously the Thunder have the best records, so they start at home and they were great, but they closed out their
series only what two days ago? So does that favor you know, is rhythm more important than rest? Will find out because usually that's what the result of game one is. If the Thunder winners like see, you better to be a rhythm. If the Wolves winners like see an extra couple of days, rest always up. So there's no scientific proof of either aend, but it should be a fascinating game one either way.
Makes you wonderly what a team would look like with Donovan, Mitchell, Rudy Gobert and their prime and a Mike Conley maybe and maybe a Joe Ingles.
And it makes you wonder what that team would look like.
Yeah, it does, it does. And you know, the Atlanta Hawks coach, Queen's Knight is a pretty good coach too, so I wonder how he would go with those sort of guys.
Yes he is.
And before I set you loose, I will take advantage of the space just to ask you about the Jazz because you know, ultimately it's tough to see any forward progress at this point, and this will be four years coming up since they made the decision to break that team down. We all gather around our television to watch the NBA Draft lottery and we all felt like we were punched in the gut when they fell to five.
But what do you make of where we find ourselves around here?
Before I set you loose with this rebuild that hasn't really brought a lot of hope to the fan base yet, Well, all I.
Will say, and I'll just preface this by saying, I'm not a draft expert, but I've heard and from what I read and understand, it's a fairly deep draft, so I think you could still get a very good player there at number five, but obviously the sites were set much higher. I mean, when you have a guy like Cooper Flagg, who's been the number one pick all season, that's the sort of you know, franchise altering player that you would ultimately hope to get your hands on. Now
he goes to the Dallas Public somehow. I don't know how that happened, but it did, and the Jazz fall back. So yeah, it's taking a little bit longer. And you know, look, Dannie Angels is acquiring a lot of draft capital, so you expect to see some move here soon. But I
know it's frustrating. I lived in Toronto for nine years, and when your team sort of, you know, year in, year out, feels like they're either rebuilding or they're you know, waiting for the next draft or the next season, it becomes pretty frustrating because it doesn't have to be like that. You know, things don't always necessarily turn around after one or two seasons, But when it gets up to that four and five mark, you just like, come on, man, do something here. We want to see some wins again.
Here we don't want to be continually looking down the road at the next you know, two, three, four seasons away. So I get the frustration, but I will say, I mean Utah when they're playing well, it's it's one of the most fascinating home court advantages I think in the league.
I talked to Quinn Snyder a lot about this this year when I was down at Horse Games, and you know, he said, like that home ground, that home court there was so important for you know, you know, securing home court in the in the playoffs, and so you know,
he knows what it's like. And as a fan, I've never been to Utah, but I've seen it, and I think and I hope the Jazz fans that it's not too long before we see that environment again, because it is certainly one of the most exciting to watch for fans on TV.
Got some good pickup hoops out here, Lee, you should make your way out of here before I set you loose.
Tell all of our listeners where they can go find your work.
Yeah, just on the socials. My name Lee ls L E I G H E L L I F I mean New York City. For these games, I'll be in Indiana for the for the entire series. I'll be where however long it goes. So if anyone is in New York, I may head up to rock A Park on Thursday to shoot around and have some fun up there, and
then it happ in Indiana the same thing. I'll I'll looking for a few outdoor courts to play on while I'm out there, So hopefully if there's any fans listening, they can hit me up and we'll connect and have some fun.
Thank you, sir, always a pleasure, save travels and we'll do it again anytime.
Thanks for having me. Spence.
The Great Lee ellis one of the nice guys in this business. I always appreciate his time.
We're going to bring in Tim McMahon coming up on the other side, but before we catch a break, we welcome in my guy Corey from Courtland Roofing once again.
Corey, Happy Tuesday man. How you doing Yeah, I'm doing great.
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I'm well.
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