But a good friend of the show stops buying a Tuesday and it's been way too long.
Caitlin Jones, Happy Tuesday, buddy. How are we doing?
I'm doing for hearing your voice? Man?
Yeah? Great. Great to catch up with you as well.
And it seems like every time I chat with you, you have taken another job and another really cool job as well. So I need the career update, I need the life update. What's going on with you now?
I mean, I'm very blessed man. You know, media is not an eat the industry to hold feeble jobs as I'm current throughout my career. But I'm currently an associate producer for Netflix is Untold, the sports documentary series. It's been about a year now. I've kept it low key
because there hasn't been too much to share. I'm excited because the first round of episodes that was a part of I really wasn't a part of I was just getting an a. I was like that person in the group who didn't really do anything on the group assignment and got an a on it. This time around had a little bit more of a hand in it. And I'm excited for our episode that's coming out called shooting guards about Gilbert Arenas and Javaris Critenson and the incident.
So we've got a couple more episodes coming up. It takes a few years of make these things. I'm learning, but it's been a really fun experience so far, transitioning over from journalism to the film space.
Very nice, very nice, Caitlin.
We are losing you a little bit on the cell phone, so I'm gonna reset quite a little bit of a long question. I'm gonna ask you just move around a little bit, see if we can get a better connection. So Cayln Jones is our guest. He's been a friend of the show for five six years. He was with The Ringer, he was with Sports Illustrated, with The Athletic, has now landed over with our friends in Netflix. So what has been so this this this Gilbert Arenas doctor
you have coming up? I wonder what has been this process, what the process has been like for you? I mean,
I certainly will never forget this story. I am beyond excited to watch this and as a lifelong quite frankly, being around the NBA my entire life, somebody who's worked in it and has covered it for quite some time, of course, I can remember Gilbert Arenas as a great college player and a very very talented pro and I completely remember when this news certainly came down in the fallout for both Gilbert and Javaris Criten And what's what's what's the process been like for you guys to make this.
So when I joined about a year ago, the process it already started conducting interviews with Green and the Bars Crinton both, you know, people close to both of them, former teammates to witness the whole incident go down. And then obviously the police departments from Atlanta who was kind of the fallout as far as Bars Critins inside of everything.
But when I joined the processes, you know, you have the editor or a couple of editors who are in ed base and after you're basically trying to help them, you know, nurture the story. Alonge, you send a few cuts to the big folks at Netflix, they send some notes back. You probably do that five or six signs before you get a final cut and line that process six about a year. It's been really fascinating. But you know, it's really cool, Spence, because you know how it is
with media scrums and most interview sessions. You know, they're five ten minutes and you're sticking a microphone in an athlete's face after, you know, a huge moment. With documentaries, we get the luxury of sitting with subjects for hours and so being able to get fuller context and provide that on a platform like Netflix is really special to be a part of.
All Right, for our listeners that are going, who are Gilbert Arenas and Javar's kritten? And because it is sixteen years ago, let's revisit it, Kalin, So tell our listeners what went down Christmas Eve two thousand and nine.
Yeah, So Gilbert Arenas as you were talking about Spence, talented NBA player, multi time all are for the Washington Wizards. He and Javaris Crittinson, who was a backup point guard on the team, young in his career, had been drafted by the Lakers, trying to kind of you know, trying to save his career. They during a slight home the two of them got you know, they were playing cards
on the plane. Uh over you know, there was a debate over who owed who money and between Gilbert and Javars Uh it became sort of an emotional showing of manhood and challenging one another. You know how it is with your friends. Sometimes sometimes we have friends who take things a little bit so far. And while they're talking about bringing guns to each other, you know, bringing guns to the locker room, and Javaris and Gilbert both ended up following through. Uh, they ended up pulling out guns
on each other. And hello, here can you hear me?
Yeah, you're you're breaking up pretty fierce. Is there is there any way we can get you to relocate.
Or do you? Porter can porter?
Porter can call you back if you want, if you want to take a second, we can reconnect with you.
Ah, man, I'm sorry, man, I'm trying to figure out a better spot in the hotel to the Uh. Speak to you from him in Atlanta. Actually, we're doing some interviews for another episode.
You sound really good right now, wherever you're at, just stay right there.
You sound right, okay, perfect? But yeah, the two of them got into a incident showing a manhood calling each other out on the plane. Both threatened to bring guns into the locker room. And I think you know, we all have friends who take things probably a little bit
too far, a little bit too literally, and unfortunately. Yeah, they they brought guns into the locker room and both were suspended, given two of the lanky suspensions in NBA history, essentially end the Javaris Critinson's career and uh, Gilbert or Reer never really recovered after that. And so what we
do is really examine the fallout of it. Uh is really tragic, honestly, like what ends up pappening in Javar's side of things, and he kind of probably aware of Gilbert Arenas's son, Elijah Arenas, one of the top prospects in college basketball. He just recently, you know, luckily survived, but there was a car accident out in La where he was trapped in a cyber truck and was able to luckily get out. He wasn't put into his coma, but he's awake now. And Yeah, we examined their relationship,
Javar's fallout. It's a really compelling episode in one of the best untolds I think will ever come out.
Yeah, I'm excited for what is the nature now for our listeners that don't know Javaris critten In a few years later was charged with the murder of Julian Jones, twenty two year old mother of four. He pled guilty to manslaughter. He was sentenced to twenty three years in prison. It was later reduced to ten years, and he was released from prison last year. So, you know, of course, a very sad story for a number of different reasons.
What was the effect of the incident, not the not the murder the Javaris committed, but the incident between Javaris and Gilbert and the gun incident, What was the effect that that had on their relationship and what is the nature of their relationship today?
Really did sort of torpedo things right. Javaris was, you know, personally upset at Gilbert because after the incident happened, after the NBA handed out or at least threatened to hand out the suspensions, Gilbert Renus was. There's a famous picture or infamous picture of him, you know in the huddle, the team huddle and finger guns at everybody, and you know Javaris saw it as you know, Gilbert playing around
and not taking things seriously. You know, their their relationship, It took a few years for them the sort of men things after Javaris had gotten out, they are now I wouldn't say close, but you know there there acquaintances cordial, however you want to put it, they're on good terms at this point. I know that Jabars has been on Gilbert Arenas's podcast a couple of times at this point to discuss everything and kind of you know, air everything out. But yeah, it's it's in a much better spot today.
And as you mentioned, you know, obviously there's a seriously tragic, you know, portion of the story that you know, we we do a really good job of getting into. But it's it's a really fascinating story. Like I said, I think it's going to be one of the best sports documentaries that comes out this year.
As far as you know, we referenced the player that Gilbert was, and you know, he ultimately when you look at from a macro standpoint, because he was not super highly thought of as an NBA prospect coming out of college, I don't think you can he was a second round pick. I don't think he can really analyze his career as anything other than a massive success based off of expectations.
But from a Gilbert Arenas angle, specifically, how did that incident kind of changed the trajectory of his NBA career.
Yeah, like I said, you know, things kind of filled with out for him afterwards, he wasn't able to return to being, you know, the superstar. He wasn't the face of the league. He was literally on the cover of NBA Live in two thousand and eight. I still I'm pretty sure I had that game. He was one of the faces of the league. And after that incident, the NBA did its you know, it did its job to protect its brand and made sure that you know, he
wasn't necessarily considered a face. For Gilbert, his career tailed off. He ended up playing in Memphis Orlando. He was never really the same player, and so for him personally though, I think that and he talked about it in our episode, it you know, played a role in him evolving and maturing as a man, specifically as a father. He's much more involved in Elijah Arenas's life. Gilbert, like I said,
he's someone who's a goofball, didn't take things seriously. That incident helped change him to being a little bit more mature and taking things a little bit more seriously. And like I said, he's ensuring that his son isn't on a similar path to not taking things serious. And I think that's the reason why he ended up not going in the first round during the draft, and why he wasn't considered as highly a prospect because he was so talented, but he didn't have maybe necessarily the work at elite
work ethic. Obviously, every athlete has work ethic, the elite work ethic to keep him consistently at an all star caliber level. So I think it changed him for the better. Obviously, it's unfortunate that it took that incident, but you know, for his personal life and we see him now obviously with the podcast. He's still a jokester, but there is a little bit more maturity that comes with the experiences he's had, you.
Know, in UH, in both in both pro sports and if for honest, in society, the topic of gun control is one that comes up often and people feel very passionate about it, both on both sides of the aisle wherever you stand. UH and of course when it comes to the NBA or the NFL, you know, oftentimes when a player is caught with a firearm without a license, or you know, they're pulled over and there's a firearm in the car, the league's come under a tremendous scrutiny
to serve as an example for everybody else. How did this incident, if at all, kind of change the perspective or paradigm of pro basketball in the way that they view and handle gun control issues.
Well, the reason why the penalty was socivere. The suspension was for the rest of the season. I'm blanking on which season that was. It might have been two and two thousand and nine, but both of them ended up being suspended for the entire season, And for Javares Crittinson, I mean he was essentially blackballed from returning to the NBA.
And then I think the severity with which the NBA came down was to ensure that, you know, the league itself has had to overcome different types of stigmas, right like before the Magic Johnson Larry bird eras uh, obviously the league had a crack cocaine issue with its players and so being able to rescue the league it's first
with the bird machinery and Michael Jordan. You know all that the league was nervous about that NINU race when the early two thousands, late nineteen nineties, you had players who the league had the record with hip hop culture coming to the surface and players expecting themselves that way. So you had different points throughout the league's league history where it's had the grapple with perception, outsider perception, which
ultimately affects its you know, final dollar. With that incident, I think they made sure very very strongly that you know, it would not tolerate you know, gun gunplay literally within the flocker room, and so the penalties were super severe, and I think that you know, how the league handled it,
uh super fascinating for Gilbert. I guess I'm telling the untold part of it here, but Gilbert explained that the league really came down fiercely upon him because he was trafficking guns essentially using private planes that the NBA was providing, because he had guns in Phoenix and he would bring them over to Washington, d C. So using the NBA's private planes. So they He believes that the reason why the pelly was so severe is because the NBA didn't want that to be known.
When is this coming out? I'm telling you, I am giddy with excitement. This is gonna be awesome.
It's coming out on May six, Okay.
Oh nice, right around the corner.
So you referenced there are some other unt and we've had Tony vai Nuku on the program a couple of times. He's a Utah filmmaker who worked on the anti Teo documentary Untold.
What what are What are the other projects that you have coming up?
Kaln Yeah, so Until has two more episodes. The episodes that are coming out are based on the social media guy named Wiver King and then also there's an episode coming out about Brett farre Neither of those episodes, I guess, like the Hollywood of It bills, weren't done by our
production houses, the production house that I work with. We have a few more episodes coming out in the pipe that regard the NBA, regard Major League Baseball, and the NFL, And unfortunately I want to protect my job, so I can't say what it is yet, but I think that they will also be some compelling stuff. So I'm really excited about what we're working on, even what I'm here in Atlanta working on right now.
Yeah, I've loved all of them. I mean, Malice in the Palace that was the first one I saw.
Let's see were the other ones we have.
I have referenced the Girlfriend who Didn't exist, Manti Tayo and a lot of local ties here. The Rise and Fall of Van One. I mean, I loved and One back in the day. I thought it was great. There's a ton of great ones. The one on Manzell was really good. I recently saw the one on Steve McNair. So what a cool what a cool series fe you'd
be involved in, Man, I think that's great. I wanted to bring you into a conversation we've been having because in your former life, and you're still a very young person, you've just done so many.
Really cool things.
But I've been talking the past couple of days Kalan about you know, on one side, you have NFL talent evaluators that actually work for the league and work for teams, and then on the other side, you have media members that kind of moonlight as NFL talent evaluators and draft you know, draft you know evaluators, and oftentimes there's a massive gap between those two groups, because if you're evaluating talent for a pro team or a pro league, you
have to remove emotion from the equation and simply analyze the prospect you have at your disposal. We're on the media side, especially during the draft cycle, for whatever reason, people want so much engagement that they don't necessarily pay as much attention to the nuts and bolts of analyzing players, and they just want you to engage with their content. Which brings me to this Shudar Sanders story, which has just been fascinating. Is this as simple as maybe media
people getting this wrong. An NFL talent evaluator is just saying he's not as good as you people think.
Yeah, I think it's a little bit of both. As someone who was on the media side of it, as you mentioned back in what was it, twenty twenty one when we had justin Fields, you know, and I wrote a story that you know, drove a lot of traffic. You know, I'm not necessarily proud of that part, but you know, the narratives that gets stuck with particular prospects is very fascinating. And so you mentioned engagement, and I was thinking about it. I was talking to a friend
about this with Shador, you know, I was joking. I was like, hey, like, I loved him, but I don't think he's a first round talent. I think he has a weak arm. I don't I think he's a great prospecting that he's tough as hell and will hang in the pocket. I mean, he drists a little bit, but he's willing to sit in the pot and will throw over the mill you can't. Those are two traits that I feel like, generally, you know, suggest that you can
last in the NFL. That being said, he doesn't have the biggest arm and he's not the biggest dude, So I'm not surprised at all. It would have taken less than one and a half if I could have gambled on it, even though two quarterbacks went. Like with the Door, It's really fascinating that. And I guess drafts in general, right justin Field's draft, there was Trevor Lawrence all time prospect, and we were still focused on the narratives that were
surrounding justin Fields. That's why I wrote the article. It's like, why are we talking about the negative about this bad prospect instead of there's other people that we can talk about. And same with the Door, we had a show to hey, old Tani esque prospect in Travis Hunter, who went number two overall. I think that's more dramatic, like there is
a one unicle who wasn't selected number one. I think that's way more compelling to me than you know, a quarterback that probably wouldn't wouldn't have gone first overall in the stronger quarterback class, you know, falling out of the first round. I think it's compelling because you guys know how it goes first and foremost, like college football fans are most rapid and most passionate stand base in the United States. I think the other element of that is
the Deon Sanders of it all. Granted I'm young, I'm only twenty eight. I've covered, I was covered in my previous job. I come the Colorado UCLA game when they were in LA and my assignment was go follow around Colorado, go hang around the tailgates, go watch the game from the stands on the Colorado side. I've been told how massive, you know, Deon Sanders, how big of a deal he is, and I understand that, but I understand it even more having been around these people who love and pray, and
that's why the Door's number gotten fired. I don't think it's like a great but I'm not surprised. It's their church essentially, people that put on their pedestal and so compelling element of shador being Deon Sanders kid is why we're so engaged, and for him to be dropped all the way down to the fifth round, I look, and you guys watch college football. I don't know if he's worse than Dylan Gabriel. I don't think he's a worst quarterback process than some of the other guys that went
before him. So that gets a little funky for me. But as far as him falling out of the first round, I wasn't that shocked one more. Do you think, like said, the narratives that the media has to run with, the negative narratives are what drives content and attention, unfortunately, and I think that's what happened for sure.
I wanted to follow up with this, do you think his dad did him a bit of a disservice because the fact of the matter is Dion Sanders could sandbag interviews all he wants, it didn't matter. He was one of the best, if not the best cornerbacks in history
pro football. And there were moments where Dion said things like we're gonna get involved where he plays, and it might be Eli Manning's situation, and and Deon saying he's a top five pick, he should be the number one pick, and you know, maybe the power of Deon Sanders swayed everybody, including Vegas, by the way, did not meet just media. Vegas at one point last year had Shador as the
favorite to be the number one pick. Do you think throughout this whole process, Shador may have been let down a little bit and done a disservice by his dad?
Oh yeah, I think so. I think it's fair to say, like you said for him. Let's put it this way. If you and I are running an NFL team and we have a first round pick, we need a quarterback. Why would we risk a quarterback who again, he's not no offense, not Josh Allen right now, Cam Newton somewhere where he's supremely physically gifted. We're gonna bet on the trades. You don't. Why would I risk, you know, Deon Sanders
potentially affecting our plan? You know, with a first round pick, it's the value is just not worth the risk, and even potentially a second round pick or a third round pick, because then all of a sudden, the conversation becomes about that and that toxicity. If we're being real as opposed to what can you provide for our football team and does he fit as opposed to does Daddy like where he's going that? And I do believe that that did a disservice to him in terms of where he ended
up being landed. And you know, some people have written that both Shador and Deon needed that humbling if the reports about him purposefully not just bombing meeting and interviews, like purposely being dismissive aren't true, than you, I guess on some level, yeah, he did need this like sort of reckoning and humbling on some level. But at the same time, you know, I do think that for Shador while he you know, I would love to be in
accusing the sense that I grew up as Deon Sanders kid. Also, yeah, with being his kid, you probably have to be on the same You're probably taught to be super confident and super brash on some level. So you know, there's we could go on for like two hours about this. It's really fascinating to me and sincerely.
But.
Yeah, at the end of the day, I do think Dion being a little bit not over confident but brash and suggesting that he would be involved in where Shador lands did cost him. At the end of the day, you know, upwards of thirty million or whatever it was that people have been able to project.
All Right, before I set you loose, I just looked up some details of the upcoming untold the Fall of FARV, and this is a perfect This is a perfect topic and person, quite frankly, not just player to do a documentary on, because it was such a wild ride as a player that not a lot of people thought highly of when he was a young college player, and ultimately becoming one of the most entertaining the players in the history of pro football to play quarterback, and then the
precipitous fault Caitlin that quite frankly is still going on right in front of us.
So before I set you loose, what can you.
Tell us about the FARV documentary coming out next month?
Yeah, So from the cut that I've seen to just to be fair, like the production house that did make it was our one of our associate houses. From what I've seen, it definitely centers around Jen Surger, the woman who Brett farre sent the inappropriate text to, who used to work for the Jets, and getting her perspective is super fascinating because, like you said, it's it's for Brett Barre, someone who was one of the most entertaining and quarterbacks
in football. It's fascinating seeing how someone who didn't have power suddenly being in a position where they are elevated. Similar to like we were talking about with the Sanders in Green Bay, Brett Farv was God essentially and for him to you know, have the power that he had as a face of the NFL, it's easy to or not easy to see, but it's it's fascinating to see how he misused that and wasn't maybe not aware, but
using his power for good. I don't know how to articulate that, but it was unfortunate and it is sad because, like I said, he was one of the most entertaining players ever. I love watching Highlands of Brett farm like
there's no one who grows football harder than him. But at the end of the day, you know where he's at right now and what he's been doing is it's super unfortunate and seeing that the set in real time we talked to I think that we talked to people involved in the lawsuit or at least a part of the Mississippi state government who do comment on how unfortunate and sad it is that, you know, he's been alleged of taking advantage of state funding. So it's a really fascinating doc all things considered,