Hey, sports fans, welcome back. It is the Drive with Spence Check. It's here on ESPN seven hundred and ninety two NFM, proud to be part of Utah's ESPN Radio network. I'm Scott Mitchell filling in for Spence this Friday afternoon.
It's a fantastic Friday. Fun Friday.
It's a football Friday for me always because Fridays are just every day when you're in the NFL. Every day is a Friday, every meal is a banquet and many other things.
So really fun to be here.
Fun show so far, great conversations with Paul Pugmeyer. Have got a lot more to get into, and we I believe we have Howard Beck with us now from the Ringer, so he joins the show talking about the NBA.
Howard, Welcome to the show. How are you doing?
I'm doing Look, Scott, how are you well? You know, it's a marathon day today. I'm living the dream and it's not a nightmare. So you know, I couldn't couldn't be happier at this time. Have to talk about sports. Uh, the NBA of course is going on right now. The playoffs are happening. What what of all the series so far, this round, the semifinal round, what what what's the one that you find the most intriguing at this time?
I mean, there all are, because this has been maybe the wildest, craziest, strangest, most chaotic second round of the playoffs the NBA has ever had. Took forever for a home team to actually win a game. And you know, as as we sit here, you know, a couple hours away from another you know night of games here, you've got you know, the Pacers up two oh and then going home. You know, they're now at home for the
next two games. You gets the Cavaliers team that was far and away the best team in the East all season, and the Cavs banged up in this series. So that's been a huge part of this. Of course, Darius Garland out for you know, both of the first two games, and then they're missing both Hunter and Kevin Mobile in game two.
I think those.
Guys are trying to play games three tonight. I'm a little out of the loop today, so I'm not sure where things stand there. But if the Cavaliers are healthy, I can see them getting back in this series. It's tough, you know, going down down two zero in a series in any round is very difficult. You you, those teams didn't generally lose it like a seventy five eighty percent rate historically, But you lose the first two at home, you know you're in a hole that that very few
teams get out of. Same thing now with Nixon Celtics, and here we have got the Celtics defending champs. That series resumes tomorrow at Madison Square Guard and that one's
got to be the biggest shocker of them all. I mean, we've had some really strange twists and turns in the playoffs, but I just I don't think there's a bigger shocker right now than a Celtics team that is the defending champions, that is pretty much healthy, not perfect, but they've got all the all the requisite bodies, and they're they're they've got the same core group back from the from the
team that won the championship. Like that, there's there's there's nothing you can point to in terms of personnel to say, Okay, well they're not the same group. That's the exact same group. They're just unable somehow to hold on to leads. They've built twenty point leads and blown them in both games so far. That's an NBA first as well. And you know, the Garden is not an easy place for visiting teams to play, but the Celtics have had great success there
in the past. We'll see if they can make this a series starting tomorrow. So I think the two East series are the most interesting right now. You know, in the West, you know, the Thunder puts such a beatdown on the Nuggets in Game two, and you kind of expect that that's where that series would go. But I could see that the Nuggets because of how great Yokic is them dragging that out. The Warriors have a tough time now because they don't have Steph Curry. That series
has tied one one going back to San Francisco. But if Curry's not playing for at least the next two to three games, which is what it looks like with that hamstring, you know, it's going to be hard for them to manufacture, you know, enough momentum to extend that one. But I think all four of these series have potential to be really fascinating and then potentially go the distance.
So you talk about it being highly unusual and and not maybe the predicted outcome.
Can you point your finger?
I mean you mentioned a couple of things, maybe injuries or whatever, But is it?
Is it more than that? Is it matchup problems? Is it? Why is why is this that is so on its ear? This? This this year's playoffs, or at least this round.
It's a great question. It's one that everybody in the NBA, I think, is asking themselves and asking each other. Why are we having so many upsets all of a sudden. I mean, we also have one of the rare times that we've got a six seed versus a seventh seed, which is you know, Minnesota versus Golden State. Now they were not the normal six and seven seed, and the
West was very tightly packed. So the difference between being the two and the three who they beat versus being the six and seven was a difference of a couple of games and the course of the regular season the standings were that tightly packed. So some of this is
just parody. We are in an age of parody in the NBA, So there's going to be more volatility, more variants and the three point shot, of course, and we are in this you know three point era, this you know, this is this three point revolution where you know, a twenty point lead, the twenty point deficit is not is not as hard to come back from as it once was. You know, so teams, you know, teams are never out of it, it seems like. And there are no super teams.
You know, when I talk about parody, it's not just oh, well, everybody is within a few degrees of each other. It's that you don't have the dominant teams in the past where you know, the like the Warriors of twenty seventeen eighteen, where Kevin Durant and Steph Curry and Draymond Green and Klay Thompson, you've got four future Hall of Famers, the Miami Heat when Lebron was there with three future Hall of Famers.
Teams aren't built that.
Way right now, and it's engineered that way. The NBA, over the course of the last several collective bargaining agreements, has made it harder and harder for teams to just stack up max players, to stack up superstars, and so as a result, most teams have won. And then maybe you've got a co star, or maybe you've got another guy who's like a second to third tier type star, but they're not as dominant as in the past, and so it does leave less margin for error.
Uh, you know, this is a this is a strategy the NFL employed this kind of parody and and and clearly it's not necessarily something that's been a part of the NBA. Was it a strategy designed because of how successful the NFL is that all these teams And do you think ultimately that you know this is this is a good strategy. Is it going to work? It's a parody going to work? Are people going to be okay
with I mean, I know how I feel. I kind of like it personally, but I'm just curious what what your thoughts are on this, this strategy and its long term impact.
The people. And when I say people like at the public media whatever, have a kind of a love hate relationship with this kind of core thing about the NBA, which is at the NBA has always been a leg of dynasties, right the Showtime Lakers and the eighties Celtics, the nineties Bulls, the Shaq and Kobe Lakers, the Spurs, you know, the Warriors of the late twenty tens. The NBA has always been built in dynasties, going all the way back, of course, to the Celtics in the sixties.
And usually you've got a team that everybody else is chasing, or sometimes a couple of teams that are battling for supremacy, and everybody else is kind of on the sidelines watching, and people will rail against that and say, oh, you know, there's only two or three teams that ever have a chance, and you know, you know it's not fair, it's all these other teams. And then you get financial issues and market size issues. Oh well, you know, the small market
teams can't keep up. They can't pay the same luxury tax bill that the big team, big market teams can pay. So you know, people rail against dynasties, but people watch dynasties, and if you love or hated dynasty, it doesn't matter if you love it or hate it, as long as you're watching. And I think the polarizing aspect of a dynasty he is part of what's made the NBA interesting, at least when it comes to April, May June. But for the rest of the season, you know, you need
markets to all be tuned into their teams. You need people to be engaged, you need fans to be interested and you need everybody to feel some sense of hope. You need, you know, fans in Indiana and Memphis and Salt Lake City of course to feel like they've got a shot too. And if it feels like only New York or LA or Chicago can ever win, that's a problem. So quickly you back up. In twenty eleven, the NBA had a lockout that you may remember, and you know,
it cut way into the season. It threatens the entire season as a whole. And during that lockout, Adam Silver, who was then the deputy commissioner now the commissioner, he had a phrase he used so many times it's embedded in my in my head, which is that he wanted a league and David Stern of course too. They wanted a league where thirty teams, if well managed, could compete
for a championship. That was the phrasing they used. What we have in today's NBA fourteen years later is effectively that like, if you're well managed, you've got a chance because nobody can just soak up all the high end talent.
Well to your point about the small market teams, you know, feeling like they have a chance to win, and you know, I'm here in Salt Lake.
I can tell you right now we know we're not going to win.
Like we're in the middle of rebuild, so I know that's not gonna happen right now. And of course the lottery is coming up here on Monday, and I know folks out in Utah are super excited about the odds
and the opportunities that are placed before us. How do we manage expectations as a fan base out here with with what happens in the lottery and where where you you know you talk can only go as low as five, But you know what's what's a reasonable expectation about what could happen in this lottery on Monday?
Yeah, I mean one quick aside as we talk about small markets. If you look at who's left the eight teams that are left right now, Oklahoma City small market team and favor to come out of the West, and they're playing against Denver. Denver's a smallish market. You know, the Warriors are playing the Timberwolves. Warriors obviously a big market, but Timberwolves, small market, Calves and Pacers are playing each other.
That's two small markets. And then of course next to Celtics, two big markets, but there's a there's a very good small market representation here right now. Of course, both the Nugget Nuggets and Bucks have both won championships within the last four or five years. So when it comes to the lottery, you know, look, it's it's a lot of
ping pong balls bouncing around. There's there's there's nothing you can hope for other than you know, you know, prayer to the basketball gods and the ping pong ball got to shine on you. But if you don't get Cooper Flag, which is what everybody's hoping for, who's in the lottery. My understanding, and I'm not a draft expert, but this
is a pretty good draft. It's a fairly deep one, and I think anybody who you know, has a top four or five pick is probably going to come away pretty happy with the talent that they're able to draft. We also know historically that even in New Year's when we say that one through five are not all going to be All stars or superstars or Hall of famers,
it just never works that way. There are always some misses no matter no matter how much scouting, no matter how much sports science has applied, uh, there's there's always going to be miss fires. So everybody in the lottery is certainly hoping to get Cooper Flagg. He's the one
can't miss. Other guys, uh, you know, Dylan Harper, Race Bailey and some others you know, look really good and promising, but you know, I'm I'm in no position to tell you that that you could be you know, you know that if your future would be set with one of those guys, I think the key thing for the for jazz fans would be. You know, you've got a very
smart front office with Danny Ainge and Justin Zanik. You've got whatever this you know, draft pick and whatever this lottery outcome, you know who delivers, and a lot of picks, still a ton of draft picks. They're sitting on a as draft capital as trade capital, and so that there's a lot of different directions they can go here. And I know it's always hard to tell people to be patient, but they really only are a couple of years removed
from blowing up. You know, the Donovan Mitchell, Rudy Gobert team, So it takes a while.
He's kind of staying here in Utah. Will Hardy's the coach. His contract was extended. You know, I think a lot of people here locally are high on will Hardy, and I think very impressed with him. What's kind of the perception of him around the NBA maybe from a national perspective.
He was really highly regarded as an assistant in Boston, even you know, before he was hired in Utah, and it's one of the reasons they pounced and hired him, of course, And I think nothing in the last couple of years has has changed that opinion. I think I think there's a great deal of respect for him. I think everybody recognizes that he's going through, you know, a rebuild where you know, the best you can do is develop your young guys, be competitive, win a few games
here and there. It's very clear that organizationally, they've set this up to not win because you know, they're in a tanking mode there. You know, want to call it rebuilding, you want to call it something else, it's fine, but you know, it's very clear what they've been trying to do. They want the high picks, and that's fine. That is a you know, I don't want to say tried and true, because it's not always it doesn't always work, but it is. It is a common form of building in the NBA.
So when you sign up as a coach for a team in that mode, you know what you're getting yourself into. And I appreciate the fact that the Jazz gave him
an extension because it's two things. It is a show of faith in him, but it is also kind of a recognition that, you know, look, we know your your your career and your win lost career when lost record has taken a beating because of the position we have put you in as an organization, and so you know, you you deserve that kind of you know, extension, that kind of long window to prove yourself and to be there for the turnaround, not just for the teardown.
Yeah.
I think Doc Rivers recently mentioned he said, hey, that record when you're when you're you're you know, taking a bullet for the team, should stay with the team when you leave.
It shouldn't. It shouldn't follow you around, It should stay there. Yeah. Yeah, I thought that was interesting.
So I've I had a conversation earlier today about the
Celtics and now here here there. You know, I could you could you could certainly argue a team that's a favored to win the whole thing, and of course they won it last year and then they're, uh, they're some of their top players went and played in the Olympics and it was a shortened off season, and you watch them where you know, they've been a very efficient three point shooting team during the season and been been horrible, uh here in this series against the Knicks, And is
it is it just bad shooting do they? Is there such a thing as like fatigue, you know, from and the fatigue goes all the way back to last off season where you don't have a normal off season, you don't have enough time to maybe make that full recovery before you go into the season, or or is it just that the Knicks are playing great defense? I mean, is there I guess, is there any validity to getting fatigued from a previous season where you're a champion and you play late into into the summer.
Broadly speaking, when teams go to the finals year after year after year and have these long runs in the spring, I think there is you know, a sort of attrition and a fatigue that can build up over time and causes injuries and all that. I don't think that's what's happening here right now? The Celtics are generally healthy, and they had a pretty great regular season, not as many wins as a year ago, but most championship teams lose. You know, you're you know, win at a slightly less
rate the next year. They're fine. They're also their core guys are young or they their two most important players are are you know, still young and in their prime? And Tatum and Brown? What's happened in these first two games? All the tracking data indicates that they are that they're Their shot quality was super high, right, and then by shot quality, we mean you know, not hard, not not well guarded.
Right.
They had a ton of open shots. For the most part, they're missing open threes. Missing open threes is something that happens because there's high variance in three point shooting for most people not named Steph Curry, and you know it when it goes bad, sometimes it goes really bad, and sometimes there's no explanation for it. Now, Jalen Brown's had some injuries that maybe have affected his lyft a little bit.
I don't think Tatum has that excuse. They've just missed a lot, and then they've consisted on continuing to take them. So you know, this is one of those cases where the Celtics are so all in Joe Mizulaz coaches so all in on a three point strategy that when it goes bad, they really think themselves. And it's not that they're incapable of doing other things. They've got plenty of guys who with you know, quality mid range games, that can play in the post and can attack the rim.
And for whatever reason, and maybe some of it is just that, you know what, both these games they had twenty point leads. You get a twenty point lead, you stop attacking, you get a little lazy. It's easier to shoot a three than it is to drive into the paint and take some contact. And so you know, again, like they've been good enough to have twenty point lead in both of these games. So it's it's not like
there's something fundamentally wrong. You can't say it's fatigue if they if they're good enough to build a twenty point league, and you can't say it's just a three point reliance. If they've been good enough to build a twenty point lead, it's what they do with that lead and what happens in third and fourth quarters lately, and it's it's hard to explain. I think there's some tactical stuff here that they need to clean up.
Last question for it, let's go here. Who do you like? Who do you like coming out of the East? Who do you like coming out of the West.
Before the season, I said it was going to be Oklahoma and Boston with the Thunder winning. And my rationale for the Thunder winning was just, you know, they're younger and deeper, and I figure the celt we're gonna you know that there would be some actually fatigue by the time they got back to the finals again, especially with the Eastern Conference being a little stronger. You know, as we sit here right now, you know that's not looking as great. Like Oklahoma still looks like they're they're a
good bet to come out of the West. But the Celtics are, you know, on the ropes, and if they lose tomorrow, they're basically done because no one's ever come back from three zero in the NBA. I'll stick with Oklahoma and Boston just for the sake of consistency, but I don't have a whole lot of confidence in the Celtics right now. And if they do go down. You know now, it's it's probably you know, it could very well be Nicks versus Pacers in the conference finals. And
I mean that was a toss up. I mean, these teams are both very capable, but I'll stick with Boston Oklahoma for now.
All right, great stuff, Thank you for joining me. Really appreciate your time. Enjoyed the conversation. Howard Beck from the Ringer, Thank you. Have a great day, Howard, My pleasure you two. All right, listen up, homeowners, Spring is in the air, the birds are chirping, and the flowers are blooming. Is your home and backyard sanctuary ready to enjoy the coming season? Go check out the new Daybreak Home and Garden Show coming to the ballpark at America First Square May sixteenth
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