It's always better when they're live in studio, but we are part today. It's the Big Show, Big Hour starting on our Thursday with Gordon Monson from the Salt Lake Tribune.
Gordo, Happy Thursday. How are you doing.
I'm doing this flying, Thanks Spence. How are you today?
I'm good, my friends. I felt like you dusted off the fastball today. I felt like you reached back into the old bag of tricks and pulled out the Gordon Monson fastball. With the piece you wrote about the once proud Delta Center. I don't know if it's haunted, but maybe it is haunted plague by the ghosts and goals of losing. It's a perfect Gordon Monson column. You know, certainly, once upon a time, as you point out, and as you outline with data and numbers, this was a fortress
that simply it just is not now. And it's not just the basketball team, it's the hockey team. So give me the origin story, when'd you decide to do this, and let's unpack it for our listeners.
I just just came to me that both the Jazz and the Utah Hockey Club have the worst winning percentage in each of their leagues and that I'm telling you, Spence. For guys like us who've been around a while, when you see something like that, it kind of smacks you upside the head. It's just like, it's I understand what's going on. You got a new hockey team here, relative well, new to this area, and we building and trying to
make some progress. And the Jazz, it's just it's just weird for them to be to have the record they have at home with only three wins. It's just that is not our orientation for that particular building. Remember back in the day, when I mean you had Michael Jordan, you had Kobe Bryant, you had great players talking about how tough it was to play at the Delta Center.
And now it's just kind of like, and I get it, I get what's going on with the tanking and all that sort of thing, but still that aspect to it is just weird.
Yeah, And it makes you make a lot of really good, fair interesting points. And I find covering the Jazz and the hockey team, to your point that you point out in the piece, you give them a bit of a pass because they're not an expansion team, but they're a new team. And you know, well, it'll take some time, even if you're not an expansion team but a new team yet, to uproot your entire life and move to a new place.
So let's let's see how this young group comes together.
Let's see what Bill Armstrong's plan is from a jazz standpoint. Though it's certainly a different day and a different era and quite frankly a different day a different era in pro basketball. And occasionally you'll hear the quiet part set out loud when Jason Kidd says after a playoff loss, you guys don't get it. We're just millionaires cheering for each other, and you're just kind of like, okay, you know, like,
don't say that out loud, man, we get it. And Kevin Durant at times, you know, we never think about the fans. Just so you guys know, there is this feeling where no matter who you play for, no matter what team you play for, as long as you're in the group, you're in the group, and you're just kind of part of this ecosystem.
And it's cyclical.
Maybe at times you'll be able to turn a losing team into a winning team over time, but you know, it almost feels like because you point out Jordan and Kobe and oftentimes so many great players don't even play
in saut Lake. It's a weird thing to cover because you're kind of stuck in between, like really wishing it felt like it used to with how good the Jazz were back in the day and how many great players came in here and played the Jazz and the highest rated basketball game of all time was played in Saul Lake. It was Michael Jordan's last game when he hit the
shot over Brian Russell. Here in Utah, we have serious basketball history and pedigree, But how do you really cover the thing when it does feel like we've moved into this new era where it's just this group of millionaires cheering for each other regardless of wins and losses.
Man, I'll tell you that is a dangerous way to think. And it's just because what is the one thing that the NBA traditionally has brought that draws fans in. Well, it's a couple of things. One is the stars. I mean they've marketed that to the degree. But the other thing is the freaking competition. If that, if that goes south, then what are people looking at now? They're looking at the what the Harlem Globe trotters against the Washington Generals.
I mean that that can't be. That's a dangerous, dangerous thought, I think for any executive in the NBA to think that that could seep out and really become a reality in people's minds, because then now you're just going to a play, You're just going to a movie. You're going to be entertained, but you're not there to see a real competitive battle. And I think that's what makes sports great. You know. I look around the Delta cit Or now and a lot of the fans in that building are
you know, they've been around, they're longtime Jazz fans. But for the younger people, I really feel bad for them because it's like it's just not the same. And the fans do their job. I mean, the fans try hard. I mean you've heard the way that that crowd cheers for the Jazz and maybe some of them don't want to see them win right now because they get the nuances of the NBA and how you got to rebuild. But man, they don't act like it when you're in
the action. We're watching these games. They are. The fans are solid, but it's not at the level it once was. And who can blame these folks for that? I mean, what they're watching is nowhere near what they were watching when the Jazz were going thirty eight and three at home, you know. I mean, And I remember talking the Big Dog and I put that in the column, asking him how before a game, whether he thought how he felt about the stakes for winning, and all he said is
where's the game at It's the Delta Center. Stuff said that was it. They knew or they had they were ninety nine percent sure they were gonna win because of the very environment in which they were playing. And I look at those fans that are at the Delta Center now and they just the players don't have that feeling and fans.
You bring up a really interesting dynamic that has been discussed before. And you said, you know, otherwise it's just a play. You're going to see a movie. And ultimately, isn't that what it kind of is?
Anyway?
Because I do find this interesting, and there are levels to your fandom, right, Like, I'm sure there are plenty of people across our market that just like get excited to go to a Jazz game and they don't really care who the jazz are playing. It's a night away from your life, it's a night away from your your worries,
and sports has always been this great escape. And I can remember growing up and there were two things that I used to attender watch that made grown man act like lunatics, and one was live music and the other was sports. And I'm like, I kind of want to stay in that space because it's fun, right, And ultimately we do work in the toy aisle and sports is supposed to be a little bit of a respite.
But as somebody who's.
Covered it for as long as you have, what's the difference between going to see a play and a jazz game.
Well, for me, well, you bring up a great point because there are different motivations for different people. I mean, Spence, when I think, what do you go to a game for when you're if you're not covering it, you're going there to study what's going on on the floor and to get into the details of what's happening. I mean, maybe some fans do that, and maybe some fans just want to, like you said, get out and have a
good time. But it sure seems to me like you can look this up and see how fans react when they're cheering for a winning team. They fill the building. It's tough to get a ticket. They want to be there, They're motivated to be there because the players are a representation of them. It's a I used to make you cry when I would bring this up again and again when I had that discussion with this with this cultural
anthropologist who said that these teams represent the communities. They're like the feudal armies, modern feudal armies that are going to do battle against other communities for what, for people to feel good about themselves. For people they get a boost of self esteem. Why, because they're proud of their community and they're proud of the team that represents them, and they're going out to do battle against the other ones. And thankfully it's not typically violent, and we can be
grateful for that. But this is this I'm ever talking with sports psychologists about that, and he said, fans are actually living their lives to some extent through the teams for which they cheer, and that's why some people really
get into that. They always cheer for winners, for blue bloods, for teams that have established records that you know, you're route for the Yankees or sorry, I mean, I know that's close to your heart, but you have other reasons for that, or the Dodgers or some team that really represents and other teams. Other fans cheer for the underdog, and those are the ones that just sort of want to see if the underdog can win. But the local fans, they are locked into this stuff, or at least that's
the way it used to be. Remember when the Jazz were going to the deep into the playoffs every year, and what would it look like around here? Man? You had people with their flags hanging out of their cars, and I mean it was like this was a representation of a breakaway republic. Root for the Utah Jazz because it makes all of us here and you it's all feel good, and that goes beyond just going to watch
a good movie. The only, in fact, the only thing I can think of in as far as customers go, that relates to that is I mean, I don't know if you care what gas station you go to, what gas you buy, but you know, folks, folks who buy Apple products, it seems like they get behind the product, like it means something to them, like they're connected to it. But that's that's relatively rare, but not in sports.
Yeah, but then there's the one annoying friend that hates Apple and gets the Android. Then he has the green bubble in his text, and the text thread is just ruined. I mean, can we all get on the same page because you hate the one guy on the thread that has the Android because you just want the blue Apple text, and then because of him, it's all green.
Let me ask you this, Bence, in all your years of going to sporting events, what stands out in your mind as far as atmosphere goes. I mean, where it really was different than going in to watch a movie or play. Where was where there was electricity in the air. Can you think of it? I know you've been to many events from coast to coast. Is there something that stands out to you?
Yeah, it's the high stakes stuff.
It's you know, being a PR intern with Kim Turner and Dave all Read ninety seven ninety eight when the Jazz were in the finals and being in the building and watching Stuart Scott lose his mind when Michael Jordan hit the shot.
You know, you know it just it's when the stakes.
Are high and I can There are a number of different examples back at the Garden, when the Bulls were in town or the Pacers were in town. I'll never forget Larry Johnson's four point play against the Pacers. I've never felt anything like that in my life, and I was there at courtside to experience that at the Garden. I've been the World Series, I've been a Super Bowls. You know, some of the most intense it's like an
intangible thing. As a soccer expert, you would know some of the most intense atmospheres I've been in are like penalty kicks with something on the line, like the RSL MLS Cup win in two thousand and nine against Seattle, when you know a lot of people forget Kyle Beckerman miss his pk Landon donovanskyde his There's something about the end of soccer matches that carry a flair for the dramatic that feels a little bit more prescient and urgent than other sports.
But whenever I've been final fours, you know.
You know we could keep going Utah BYU game a PAC twelve championship, like whenever the stakes are high, that's when you can feel what makes sports different than simply watching a movie. But for a regular season Jazz Hornets game, you might as well turn on a documentary.
At times.
I just might sometimes. I mean, unless I think it's going there's going to be a reason, there's going to be a payoff for what you're seeing. But fans generally already have that connection, and so I gotta give to the Jazz fans credit. The fans in this area are pretty I don't think they're fully unique, but they are extraordinary in a lot of ways where the care factor is high. And that's a big reason that Delta Center
was so sure they had great teams. They've had fine teams through the years who are getting those great home records, but the fan can't tell me the fans don't play a role in that. And in talking to the players as they came in to the Delta Center back in the day, man they certainly felt it and they were
the ones doing the competing. So I mean, I think it's effective, and it's one of the reasons why in most situations, or in many situations where the team is good, it's very difficult to beat them on their home floor, on their home field, or on their home pitch. And I was at that RSL game covering it too in my Lust Cup and I remember that, man, and that place was it was in Seattle, and that place was buzzing. Man, it was just it was just cool to see. So
it doesn't matter what sport it is. But I don't remember feeling that way.
Yeah, And there is a difference. You know, we used to, you know, when baseball was mired in the steroid era, and then you would hear like Brad pitts ay, I used HGH for my role in Fight Club. It's kind of like, I, well, what's the difference if it's if there are athletes, you know, if there are actors and
entertainers using the same products that are illegal in pro sports. Really, what's the difference if the old ideas entertainment and really does come down to competition and whether or not you enjoy that, and whether or not you enjoy an even playing field, and the moments that manifest themselves in a surprising way that nobody saw coming. John Stockton hits the shot against Houston to send the Jazz to the finals. You know, the moments that catch us off guard. And
that's why you watch because and and that's why. By the way, it's an exercise and futility trying to gamble on this stuff. And I always tell people you gotta be careful because it is so unpredictable, and in a way, it's kind of like.
A soap opera in a reality show.
That is the ultimate in reality because it's not scripted, and the outcome oftentimes catches you off guard. It's the surprise moments when they actually manifest that reminds you like, yeah, that's why we watched, that's why this is fun exactly.
Couldn't have said it better. And look, I was infused in when stuck and hit that shot and that building. Talk about a care factor. I mean, the air just went straight out the door, and the fans, the home fans, were so disappointed, and you could hear you could hear
the jazz on the floor in that huge building. You could hear them yelling and the voices of exuberation and the thrill of victory, you know, the old ABC White rld is purse, the thrill of victory and the agony of defeat, and the thrill was amongst that little group that on the floor and the rest of the building or most of the rest of the buildings feel in the agony.
When I think about Jerry May rest in peace, that's I think about that moment because I don't think i'd ever seen him smile like that.
And that's what you want, man and sports that you want the thrill, you want the agony, you want the care factor to be off the charts. That's what makes it so exciting. And that's why when fans find themselves in those situations, that's when they get emotional. That's when you see people willing to pay the prices necessary to go to these games and to have an experience and to feel feel that vibe, and then to be able to go out on the street or go to a restaurant,
or go to wherever and go celebrate it afterwards. We've seen all of that. That's why they have parades when teams win championship. I don't think I've ever seen a parade after a Broadway plood.
Let's see now, I think that's correct. I've not seen seen a play after seen a parade after a Broadway play.
That would be a weird thing to do.
Although, tell my wife at because when she goes and sees the movie, she likes then she goes and sees it like four or five times, and then and then you know, and then we might see it at home on the TV at home another four or five times. She gets into that stuff.
I have to say, Lisa and I share that in common. It's it's almost like I'm the type that if I find a song, I like, I'm listening to it ten thousand times before I listen.
To something else. I don't know why. That's just how I'm wired.
Yeah, I do that too, But tell me what movie? What movie? Tell me the all time movie for you that you would you couldn't get enough of it? What.
I went through this weird phase where I was fighting with a cable company and that's never going to work because they turned off my cable and they claimed I didn't pay my bill. I was like twenty one. I think I bounced a check because I was a kid, and I was like, screw you.
I paid.
They're like you didn't. I'm like, yes I did. They're like, all right, fine, no cable, and so they won. But I for like a year, I just I watched movies, and I watched a ton of movies that I had never watched before this was like twenty years ago, Rushmore. I watched probably forty fifty times Scarface over and over and over. It would be tough to pick just one. But yeah, I mean it's it's like music. It's like it's like when you pull up door dashed order dinner.
It's like, I know this restaurant's good, So I'm just gonna get that as opposed to trying something new.
When you know something's good, that's that's kind of what you want.
Well, I mean, look, can I confess here? And there's there's really some guilt in some of this confession, not all of it. But the movie for me that I've probably seen more than any.
It's perfect, it's perfect.
Well, well that was my guilty one. I really liked that. But I look gladi hetor That's good. I had that effect for me. I love that, you know, or one from the eighties. All you oldsters out there going back Tender Mercies, you remember that, Robert Duvall. Yeah, yeah, just love that stuff, you know. So I can take subtle storytelling and enjoy it again and again. But I still don't get I mean, I like to think when I
see a movie. I like movies that make me think, and I'm gonna hash it and rehash it and watch it again, but I still don't recall quite the thrill from those moments in sports over my lifetime that I and you and I have been to a whole lot of them, and we've experienced it in buildings all over the place in all different kinds of sports, but there's a there's an element to it that's just different. And you know when you go to the Delta Center now, for guys like you and me, I mean, we have
memories there. You know, Larry built the place in the early nineties and from there, I mean, there have been so many moments in that building. They never got a championship there, but there have been so many thrilling moments.
And it was for me more often than not because I've exorcised the fan out of me, but I would look around and see the way the fans would react in that building, and then for me, it was just the thrill of watching raw competition on the floor that you didn't know exactly how it was going to go, but there was a good chance it was gonna go the home team's way.
I just remember when we were doing the Old Show and you came in grumpy because Lisa was making you go to Pitch Perfect at the theaters, and you came in the next day ready to sing a cappella.
It inspired you quite a bit.
This is a stupid movie for me to really really liked that one. And Family Man. I mean, I love those two movies. I can't I can't only explain it. Have you seen Family Man? Family Man?
Yes? I have, Gordon, I won't surprise you.
For you.
No, No, it's just whatever I'll say it on air. It's one of those movies where a guy like me people are like, yeah, you should watch this, and I know what you're saying. Okay, message received, Thank you very much. I like my my family was like, hey, you know subtle in here. Check this movie out. So yes, I've seen it three or four times, but.
They had Nick Cage in it, so I probably would would rank it low on the scale for you for sure.
Let let's let me go back to the community asset element of a sports team, because you always hear owners talk about that like that's their motivation.
They want this to be a community asset.
They want this something to be they want this to be something the community is proud of Is that compromised when the results aren't close to what they need to be for the community to be proud in the performance at all? Or is it when an owner says that, do you feel like there's validity and uh, you know that's something that's authentic or it's like this, this is just something I'm gonna say so I can get a billion dollars from the you know, the community to build something.
Yeah, I think I think, well, I think I've seen some owners who have said that, and I think they are about the dollars. And then I've seen other owners who really do feel it. And you can guess which owner feels what way. But you know, Larry used to talk about this, Gail talked about it a thousand times, and that was a gift to the community. Where you have your red, you have your blue, and you mix red and blue together and what do you get? You
get purple right right on that eye. But anyway, that's what you would get with the jazz and a place where people who in their college patronize patronage would root completely against the other one and now they're sitting next to each other, they're cheering for the same team. So I think there is a value that if it's authentic, and if the owners put a good team on the floor on the for fans to gom onto, then I
think it's more authentic. And look, I think Ryan Smith has a big challenge in front of him because he took over the team and he and Danny Ings disassembled a playoff team and people thought, okay, in their case, and I mentioned this in the column, they didn't have financial flexibility to move it in one direction or the other. But at least they were going to the playoffs every year,
and those teams were good. I remember when twenty twenty twenty one, that was the best record in the NBA during the regular season, and yeah, okay, so they lost, but at least it was competitive and it was in the playoffs. And now what's being offered up now? I mean, there have been two seasons you and I have talked about this where they've sort of been in no man's land. They've been good at times, but they've been bad at times, but not bad enough. And so what does that do.
That's like tearing off the band aid one little bit at a time instead of just ripped it right off. And that's what I think the Jazz should have done. If they were going to follow this this angle, then then do it, you know, be committed to it and make it happen. And people say, you haven't. How did that work for the seventy six ers, and yeah, and sometimes it doesn't work. Remember when the Clippers were the laughing stock. They would have top draft picks, but they
would always screw it up one way or the other. Well, be committed to what you're going to do and make it work for you. But what's happened with the Jazz over the last couple of years is they haven't been They haven't been good, but they haven't been bad enough. And so now where is the franchise? Now? Now it's you see where it is? Where they win three games out of whatever many seventeen eighteen have already been played there,
and that's they're going to do that? Then do it with zest and make it happen and make it pay off for you. And with Danny and Ryan they thought that they were smart enough to make this work. So you give up the playoff team because it's not quite good enough for you and there are other things going on. I get that, But now where are they now, are they smart enough now that they have the financial flexibility
or are they smart enough to make it work? And I'm not sure they've shown that they are at this point.
And can they find players who want to not just develop here, evolve here, but stay here? I mean, you know, the Jazz historically have the draft and develop portion dialed in, but the formula for building a winning roster with talent
and Pro Basketball's draft, develop and retain. And it's that third piece they've got to figure out, whether it's Hayward leaving or them deciding to move on from Gobert and Mitchell, so that wasn't necessarily a retain issue, but everyone thought Donovan was gone anyway, So they have the first two
pieces figured out. Gordon, I think the underlying concern is, in today's day age of the NBA, with players being able to move a little bit freer than they used to, are the Jazz able to draft, develop, and retain long enough to allow a process to become fully baked. Because John and Carl were in their mid thirties before they went to the NBA finals.
Yeah, yeah, that's right, that's right. And I remember looking up when the Jazz were struggling in the playoffs to move forward. I compared Donovan, Mitchell and Rudy Gobert teams to what we saw with John and Carl, and it was almost the same. Spence, it was almost the same. But are there is the team patient enough to stay with it? Are the players satisfied enough to stay with it? Those are big time questions. But now we have an
interesting comparison. I think when you look at the Jazz and then you look at the Utah Hockey Club and get a freaking name, well, it's just ridiculous. Anyway, now we can see it'll be interesting to see if players of hockey players will make Salt Lake City sort of a destination where they really love to play, and how will that compare with NBA players. I'm going to watch that with great interest to see how it turns out, you know, and I don't know the answer to it at this point.
One more thing, Goroid, I'll set you loose after this, because you know, as we're talking through this and flushing some of these topics out, That's why I always like kind of doing radio this way from a standpoint of,
you know, kind of diagnosing and not prognosticating. And just coming at it from a curiosity standpoint, because you know, if there is this secular nature to the relationship between fans and teams where the team simply is comprised of rich people cheering for each other and you're the peasants that essentially provide the revenue and they don't really give a rip about you, it kind of makes me feel the way the potentially maybe in pro basketball or pro football,
what have you, the way that it is with you know, like EPL soccer teams where it's such a community pillar regardless of who the owner is, regardless of the coaches. Like if you were raised in the shadows of white Hart Lane, you're a Tottenham fan, Like wherever your community is, you're just simply a fan of that team and you get together and you watch it and you are part of the community, regardless of who the people are that
are actually running it. They're just stewards of it. And you know, I wonder your thoughts on that, like as far as what a community, like, what sort of community you can create if you're not necessarily thought of as part of the process of building something special, If if it really is the deal, where like sports have moved into this realm of like all of these rich people because the money is so crazy and they don't really consider the importance of being a community asset. What is it.
What's it going to take for a fan base simply to create their own community. I will say I feel like that is something different about foot where the football community feels a little there's like a little religiosity to it, you know, like there's a little just they love it so much and you hear people talk about it with
like tears in their eyes. I don't know what it is about football, but you know, ultimately, if it's not going to be about wins and losses, if it's not going to be about you know, considering what this means the community and making sure we're building something special. How do fans find their own community and support a team regardless of who's running or coaching it.
Well, I think winning does come into play, but I mean you talk about football. If you want to talk about football, then think about place like Liverpool, where you have Liverpool and you have Everton And how do fans decide which one of those two teams they are going to root for? I mean, there's something that clicks that connects them to those teams, and I'm not sure. Maybe I need to call my cultural anthropologists to give to find that out. Somehow something clicks and they stay with it,
And I think you're right. I see that in the NFL more than I do with some other sports, some other leagues, but sports, these franchises better hope that that doesn't evaporate. That's why when you and I don't know, you've probably talked a lot about this, but you know the TV ratings being down in the NBA this year.
What causes that is that? Is that an evaporation of what we're talking about here, is that fans deciding that, hey, I don't have anything in common with these guys on the floor who are supposed to be representing me, and they're filthy rich, you know, I'm just trying to keep food on my table for my family. They sports has to find a way to bridge that gap, because if they don't, then I don't think people will pay the prices that they have to pay to be avid fans.
Maybe some will, but will it be what made the NBA so popular. I think over a couple of decades, there was that it was drawing in the casual fan in addition to the fans who are who are basketball junkies, and that makes a huge difference. It makes a huge difference for the teams in the leagues, and the NBA better not lose that or else I'm telling you, I
don't know how optimistic I would be about that. They've got to find a way to connect and these you know that you see some fans or see some players professional who connect, who go out of their way to sign autographs, to meet people, to make those connections. And sometimes in the NBA you see players that just sort of you know, I got it made regardless of what happens, and that that along with gambling, those two things are poisoned for professional sports. So you got to stay away from him.
Well said.
All Right, Gord, we blew up the clock, but that makes you proud because you taught me how to do it. So we'll set you loose on this Thursday and we'll chat soon. Thank you, my friend.
All right, and God bless Bob Yuker. Thank goodness. Guys like that.
Exist, well said, Well said, talk about existing in the toy isle. And we're gonna bring in Craig Bowlerjack coming up in a little bit. I think, man, we can talk about this topic for so long because the NBA also lucked in a little bit in the nineties, back in that era where all of those superstar players wanted to rip each other's throats out competitively in a way that you just don't see anymore. Like Magic and Larry and Michael. They wanted to kill you and slit your throat.
And Kobe had a little bit of that right and is as much criticism as Russell Westbrook has taken over the years for simply not being a player where you can win anything special with. He has a little bit of that. The other modern day guys don't. I mean, there are isolated incidents. It's one of the reasons why I kind of like watching Memphis play, because they kind
of want to smoke. I don't know, man, I think it's an interesting time, and of course we're coming out it through the prism of trying to cover a local team that isn't serious about winning