Our next guest.
It's been a minute, but I always smile when I see him on the rundown because I know we're gonna have a good time on a Tuesday afternoon with the legend himself.
I an Eagle. I am happy Tuesday, sir. How are you hey?
What's up? Spence? Thank you very much for the in bump music, little Don Henley Eagles. I see the connection, synchronicity.
You got it, my friend?
Do you get is this the time of year where you can actually take a deep breath and have a little bit of time off?
Am I reading that correctly?
You are? Yet today? Literally today was the day and then Porter reached out to me, so that ended.
So we're ruining your free time.
But truly, I mean, you're a man that grinds and works, and I feel like you're doing something like are you able to breathe a little bit right now? Are you busy working like you seem to always be.
No, I'm definitely breathing. I do some voiceover stuff at an NBA voiceover today, so I wasn't completely off, but it's not heavy lifting this time of year. And yeah, it's been great, it's been terrific, just to recharge to the battery to watch the game in a different way through a different lens, the lens of a fan, while
also watching it with historical perspective in mind. But the NBA Finals is still a crowning achievement, and these two teams are just outstanding storylines that deserve to be where they are. They've earned their right to play on the biggest stage they have.
So let's do some NBA, let's do some pro basketball, and you know I And it's actually fun to watch the Knicks play themselves in irrelevance for the first time in a long long time. And obviously, so many memories come flooding back when you see Nick Pacers. Certainly with those two teams battling, the Pacers deserving victors. But what did you make of the decision to relieve Tom Thibodeau of his duties after bringing them to the Eastern Conference Finals for the first time in twenty five years?
Yeah, a little surprised, anticipated that they would run it back. He had just signed an extension. Obviously, being were trending in the right direction, they improved each year, they got
around further than they had previously. With Tom Tibodeaux as the head coach, but those pesky little exit interviews could certainly play a role, as we know, and trying to determine the best direction of the team, and my understanding is that some of that may have gone sideways for Tibbs, and unfortunately, as we know, that is enough to cost
you your job. In the current climate of the NBA, players have a lot of power, and rightfully so, they deserve to have some say, but they're certain owners that will not get involved in that end of it. It feels like this may have been a different set of circumstances where there were some feelings within one side of management that maybe it was time to make a change and get some new blood and a new voice in
and look, the results will tell the story. I don't think they're going to run it back with the same exact team. I think there will be changes and certainly a change in philosophy. Ended up calling a bunch of their postseason games in that first round series against Detroit and got a feel for how hard this team fights
and the improvement that we saw. But ultimately the way that coach Tibbs approaches this it may have been as undoing the fact that he just believes in riding the starters heavy minutes, and then when they needed some others to step forward, they really didn't have the options they were hoping for in the conference finals.
You know, I don't want to sound like the guy that's calling these young NBA players coddled, but I wonder you know, Michael Malone loses his job two years after went into championship. Taylor Jenkins, who kind of has that old school abrasive communicator cammunication style, loses his job after doing it really not just adequate, but excellent job with the young Memphis team when they were healthy and job was acting right or whatever, and now Tom loses his job.
Is the older approach is the Greg Popovitch Jerry Sloan old school approach? Is that out the window based off of maybe how you have to communicate with these younger NBA players, It.
Probably is, And you just have to look at the economics of it. When you take the top three highest paid players on an NBA team, they and essence have become almost partners with the owners based on their yearly salary and the commitment level of takes. When you look at the Supermax and how much money you have to
invest in these players, and it is an investment. So if things aren't going according to plan, it's much easier to change a coach who might be making four million, five million, eight million a year, even on the higher end, than it is to make it a adjustment with the player who you're on the hook for in access of two hundred or three hundred million dollars. So just look at how things work in the world and who's going to have a little bit more say and who's going
to have leverage in that situation. You have unique circumstances. San Antonio certainly had them because pop kept winning and they reinvented themselves and then they won again with a whole different set of players. So once you get to that place of credibility, ownership is going to side with
the Greg Popovich. But even a title you mentioned, Mike Malone won the title with Denver and then there our struggle with the Nuggets between head coach and GM and then they both lost because ownership decided that there was too much toxicity and the players weren't responding. So look, Spence,
you've been around this your whole life. I think sometimes it's easy to make proclamations from the outside, and if you don't have all all the information, if you're not privy to it, you may not be aware of the inner workings of a franchise. In the nixt case, it's not cut and dry. You've got some people within upper management that have a say in matters of the future, and their say might be very different than the vision of the head coach. In this particular example with New York, you know.
It's just one more thing here, then we'll move on, because honestly, the Pacers deserve their flowers for winning the series. But you know you love back there obviously. You know you know the ton and tenor of how it's worked and for so many years, and I will just say it, I do think it comes from their owner, who does play kazoo as a front man in his band and
forces employees to go watch his band. And for so many years I felt like it was the decisions made out of emotion that seem to be overly reactive that wouldn't allow them any traction. And I'm watching the watching them this year, I'm like, Okay, finally Leon Rose.
Was able to do this the right way.
Over the course of a number of years make some savvy decisions.
A lot of people question the Jalen thing. It's clearly worked.
They took a risk getting rid of de Vincenzo and Randall to bring in Kat. And you know, I do think Kat has you know, his warts defensively, but I think he played pretty well year one in New York. And I don't think they're a championship roster. I didn't think they were this year. But this once again reeks of desperation. It reeks of impulsivity from an owner that doesn't seem to know how to be patient. And I don't know what's reasonable to expect for a new coach to get more out of this roster.
And I really don't.
Yeah, it's interesting, and we could play the what if game Spence, But there are many that believe if they got clipped by the Celtics but defending champions in the second round and lost in six games, that Tom Deibodeau may have survived it because they weren't necessarily expected to be Boston. But how does that work when you're actually
a victim of your own success. You beat Boston, you lose to a team that maybe ownership believed you should beat after losing to them last year, and the disappointment of losing to Indiana might have been enough for ownership to then determine, hey, we got to change some things. We have to alter what our process is. And look, the fact of the matter is, we do not know what was said behind closed doors. We don't know what
the top stars said. We don't know if they were leading questions for the stars in those exit interviews to get them down a track that allowed and enabled ownership to justify the move ultimately. And you could say Leon Rose is in charge, and look, I do think he's been given a lot of freedom with this roster, but he still has a boss, and his boss owns the team, and if the owner wanted to make a change, guess what they're going to make a change.
So I've got to say I've been no part of me as a Pacers fan that will not surprise you, but I've been wildly impressed with the way Rick Carlisle's been able to get this group to figure it out. I mean, nobody had them going to the finals to start the year. They're ten and fifteen early on injury issues, and he is maximizing guys like Nemhard and Nie Smith. I mean, the whole discourse around Halliburton has been exhausting.
He's an Olympian, he's been an All Star, he's awesome. Like, we don't need to debate whether or not he's good. But it's the antillary pieces that Rick has been able to fit that's been really impressive. So as you watch them advance to the finals and we find themselves very much in this series, what stood out most of you about the way Ricks coached them.
Up, Well, it's interesting. I have some experience early in the season the Nets played the Pacers in Indiana was completely out of sorts at that point. So that was during that start that you just mentioned, and I was shocked because they were or a conference finalist the year before, they were an offensive juggernaut in the twenty three to
twenty four season, and we just weren't seeing it. And Haliburton did look a bit lost and the magic that we had seen from previous seasons just wasn't there, as confidence level wasn't there coming off the Olympics. We later come to find out he wasn't a hundred percent physically. He was laboring, and it took some time for him to finally get back into the rhythm. Next time I saw them was a nationally televised game on TNT. It was the Nixon Pacers and they didn't play very well.
The Knicks beat him that night. Karl Anthony Towns went off. They had no answers for him, And I remember sitting with Rick Carlisle prior to the game, and Carlisle is a deep thinker and as a basketball genius, but I felt like he knew it was going to be okay. You know when you sense that from someone despite the result, I just got the feeling from our fifteen minutes pregame that he recognized that this team was going to make it work and basically told us it was Grant Ill
and I that did that game together. And then the next time I see him come playoff time, everything is now clicking and everything that Rick envisioned has come to fruition with this group. They're deep, they are versatile, they share the ball. Siakam has been the perfect fit championship pedigree. He has proved himself to be one of the most valuable pieces in the NBA. You mentioned Nie Smith, Unsung,
Nemhard Unsung, TJ McConnell unsung. There's a recurring theme with Indiana and when they needed a performance from Thomas Bryant, he steps forward. Obi Toppin occasionally gives you a little extra juice. So this is beyond and just Tyreese Halliburton is as you mentioned, so a lot of respect for this group, very tough, never count them out. They find a way. With all of that said, I think what you saw in the first two games is very real.
And yes they're going home and that should provide an advantage. They stole Game one, which was huge, but there's still the underdogs in this series. Oksee, They're just so ridiculously deep and talented that it's going to be a big challenge for Indiana to overcome.
I agree with that.
I picked Okase in five, which does not make me unique at all. I would not be stunned if Indiana gets wanted gaines Bridge, because that crowd is going to be ready. It's been twenty five years right since the finals in Indianapolis, which is a great basketball city, so I can see them getting one. But before we move on from this, how do you see the rest of it playing out? Do you have a lean one way or the other.
Now I'm leaning towards what you just mentioned. I think they get one, but I don't think they get any more than that the rest of the way. So then that would mean okay, see wins the NBA title in Indianapolis in six games, and that's probably how it's going to play out. How game three goes might change the way we view it. If Indiana goes up to one and then the pressure builds on Okac, then maybe we're seeing
a different tune. But to me, this just has the feel of a six game NBA Finals with the most dominant team of the season emerging as the champion and hoisting the trophy when it's all said and done.
So are Utah Jazz out this way?
Iron had the worst season in franchise history and certainly was by design, and so we were all gathered around the television hoping that we would learn the Cooper flag is on his way and he's not the Jazz I say fall to five. But ultimately the best chance, uh, it was the fifth pick. It was a forty seven point eight percent chance or whatever, only a fourteen percent chance for one.
What do you what do you think of the way the NBA does this.
As far as the lottery process, of course, we are a little bit frosty out here.
We were hoping for number one.
Yeah. I think the NBA has made it very clear that they don't want teams tanking, and yet teams still tank because just look at what OKC has done. OKAC has done it the right way. They've stuck piled picks. They've been fortunate in the lottery, and when they haven't been as fortunate in the lottery, they've hit home runs in the first round. They found players that other teams may not have been interested and turned them into something. So I think the Thunder probably ended up being the
template that everybody wants to follow. But that requires someone like Sam Presty to run your basketball operations and be incredibly shrewd and make strong move after strong move after strong move in the draft and cre agency and in trades. The lottery itself is what it is, and I know it from the Brooklyn side of things. The fan base got very upset when the team started winning games and they were competitive. But I can just tell you that Jordi Fernandez didn't view it the same way as the fans.
He viewed it as Hey, these games go on my permanent record. I'm trying to create a feeling of winning within the franchise, and I also want to let people know around the league that I can coach. I know what I'm doing, and I do understand all of that. I understand his perspective and trying to run a program day in and day out, and not just looking for ways to lose, but looking for ways to improve. And sometimes the young guys just did enough to win games
they weren't supposed to win. And similar to Jazz fans, Nets fans were not happy on draft that many years ago. The Nets had one of the worst seasons in NBA history and they ended up with the third pick. That was the John Wall draft. I remember watching the lottery that year thinking, Okay, this is it, this is the guy, this is the one that's going to change their franchise. Washington gets the first pick. Nets don't get the second
pick either. Evan Turner is the second pick that year, and the Nets end up selecting Derek Favors, who, as you know, they used in the Darren Williams deal. So you can have best laid plans and then reality.
Hits you in the face as someone who at a front row seat, I'm sure multiple times to watch Cooper flag this.
Year at Duke. Yeah, is he everything he's cracked up to me?
I mean, it's such a weird thing to try to analyze these young men because there's so many things that could happen that could derail them. I don't know that he's Victor wemb and Ya'm a generational according to people that study this, but it feels like a lot of people believe that he's next in line.
Is Is he gonna live up to the billion nine?
Yeah, I'd be surprised if he's not a big time player. He looks to me like an all star player. He can do everything. And the other part that is hard to gauge because you never quite know until they get there. He wants to be great, and he'll do the work necessary to be great, and he's got the right mindset
to be great. So if you and I are having this conversation in five years, seven years, ten years and Cooper Flagg did not live up to the billing, I will look back and say that I was a bit shocked because the skill level is there and the determination is there. You can't ever truly know what's in someone's heart. But despite all the money and I l this year, despite all the ballet who, despite all the buzz and the hype, Gee was everything that they thought he was
going to be. And more so, I'm just using that mentality to the next level. The skills are there, the versatility is there, two way performer. I think he's going to be a legitimate star in the NBA. Yes, I think.
One of the other things it seems to be, you know, stinging folks around here a little bit is you look at the past, you know, five, six, seven years in pro basketball where teams in Milwaukee and Denver have won championships and this year Indianapolis and Oklahoma City market sizes that are in our ecosystem kind of where we exist in our cul de sac.
And certainly it's by design.
Adam Silver has spoken about this, and you certainly know this. This is a new era of NBA basketball with very punitive economics. If you decide that you only write checks for the best town in the league, that's no longer sustainable. I mean, the new owners of the Boston Celtics have a five hundred dollars luxury tax bill just to have
the roster and so and so. I think one of the things that is kind of disappointing about where we find ourselves is the Jazz currently are not prepared to capitalize on this new ecosystem where it doesn't matter where you are, You're able to do this anywhere. I wonder what your thoughts are on that. Hopefully the Jazz were able to capitalize on this before the CBA NS in five years to be one of these teams in a small market that's throwing punches with the other best teams.
In the league.
Yeah, And what's the common theme of all the teams that you just mentioned. Their superstars were not top three or top five picks. Yep, Jannosa deta Compo. Anybody could have had him without a doubt. Nikola Jokic, anybody could have had him. Shay Gilgis Alexander, he was not a top five pick. He had a really nice rookie season
for the Clippers. And because Kawhi Leonard was in the process of signing and wanted another proven star with him, they make the deal with OKC for Paul George and it turns out to be a lopsided deal in favor of the thunder as SGA turns into an MVP and Hall of Famer before our eyes. So everything that we talked about earlier in regards to making smart basketball decisions, having some good luck and good fortune, that's where you
stand if you're a Utah Jazz fan. It doesn't have to be the bona fide number one, number two overall pick, but you got to. You gotta make a lot of contact when it comes to this draft. Jalen Williams another one that comes to mind with OKC not a top five pick. They found him, they developed him. He developed very quickly into an All Star, into an All NBA team performer. And that's what it comes down to. It's not just lucking out with the ping pong balls going
your way. Of course, san Antonio Victor WEMBA Nyama, nobody's going to turn that down. But look at the record, Spence. It hasn't backed up what Victor is capable of because A he was on a bad team in his first year. B he got hurt in a second year. C he's playing in a highly competitive Western Conference. So even getting the generational talent guarantees you nothing in terms of team success.
This is true.
Ian.
Before I set you loose, you referenced NIL earlier and a couple of figures here. So, according to front Off of Sports, the NBA Draft is down on participants. One hundred and six players entered the draft this year. That's the lowest number of early entrants since twenty fifteen. Our early entrance peaked in twenty twenty one with three sixty three, and we all know what happened in twenty twenty one. That's when NIL became a reality. In April, the NFL
Draft had sixty nine under classmen enter the draft. That's down from one to twenty eight in twenty twenty one. Do you think nil will have a adverse effect on co legian athletics? Are the fact that more kids seem to be staying to play because they can make money. Will that make the product better both college football and college basketball?
Yeah? I mean Spence, I'm not going with recency bias here, but having called the Final four in San Antonio, those three games, both semi finals and championship game were played at an extremely high level. All four teams were acceptable teams, and it was all number one seeds emerging. I don't think it was by accident. I do believe there's been a cause and effect. I do believe nil has been a big reason why we've seen this new storyline emerge.
And while I know that there are those that bemoan the fact they're not getting the Cinderella stories in the first and second round, what we saw was more competitive basketball come Sweet sixteen, Elite eight and beyond. Does that continue? I tend to think it will until things level out, or if there's a salary cap, which eventually may come. By the way, that players are just going to slot
in to where they fit. That you can pay your lead star X and your second biggest player why and down the line, and that's where they might be able to maintain the competitive balance with some of the mid level programs. But for now, it's Cowboys and Indians. Who's got the most money, who's got the payroll. The other part about it is you can make a mistake and then bounce back. If you're a Kansas they made mistakes in their roster this past year. Guess what they're going
to reload for twenty five twenty six. I doubt that they're going to make the same mistakes two years in a row. But it does show that you've got to be a very well scouted group of coaches and beyond, because now they have gms of these college teams to project the future. You're obviously fishing for major stars, but just because you pay them a ridiculous amount of money doesn't mean that they're going to necessarily deliver for you.
So there is that part of the equation too. Of some teams are just better at evaluating talent, and we saw that this past year.
I and thank you sir. Always a pleasure.
We'll let you get back to putting your feet up on the sofa with a little bit of free time for you back to the grind.
So be well and we'll chat soon. Thank you sir.
Yeah, appreciate it's fence. Always great talking to you man.
All the best, Hi, inego play by Playboy, CBS, T and T. TBS does basketball, football, tennis, golf, does a little bit of everything. He's won like seventy Emmys. I always lose track. I feel like he wins it every year. And obviously his son Noah a rising star in that space as well.