Hello, how are you? We are on air? Apologies to our friends out of tim Dolly. We had some technical difficulties, so I had to hop in the car and rush back to the studio. So we'll get to uh, we'll get to well everything that we need to get to. But luckily right out of the gates we can welcome and our guy, Tony Jones on a beautiful Friday afternoon. Do not let us win game six, Tony. That's all I have to say.
That's all I have to say. Do not let us walk into Indianapolis and walk out. Don't let us win game six. Just don't let us win game six. Finish us off. That's all. That's all I say.
I do kind of I do, kind of like porters angle. Though on the other side, we'sie, please let us win game six.
I mean, you know, no, it would be nice to win game six.
No, no, no, don't let us win game six. Okay, no, let him win game six. Not winning game seven.
I'm with you.
I'll tell you what was weird, man Like, if you had not watched any this series.
Let's say you were on vacation, you went over to.
Europe for a few weeks, and you didn't watch any of the first you know, four games, and then you just watched last night.
You would have been like, how is Indiana up? I mean, last.
Night was a bloodbath? What were your what do you think was different? Let me ask you that from your basketball eye? What what made last night different for New York or Indiana?
Either way?
Well, remember when we talked last week and and and how sad and just miserable I was after game one?
Yep?
Well, game one is the difference of the series, it is, right, Yeah, Game one is the difference of the series. So you know, but to your point and to your question, in two of the last three games, we have defended Indiana very very very well. Uh uh. Game three we defended them very well. Game four they kind of got away from us. Game five was our best defensive of the series. So in two or three we've kind of figured them out,
you know. So what that means for game six, you know, I don't know, because the one thing from covering the first I've I've covered the first three rounds of this playoffs, you know, through how many teams, five, five teams or whatever, And the one thing that this playoffs has been defined by is that there's no carryover to these games. These games are all individual entities unto themselves. So you know, I don't think there's going to be any carryover to
Game six. I mean, if New York wins Game six is going to be because you know, they play a great Game six, not because of anything that happened in Game five or anything before. But there are clearly some things that you know, Tom Thibodeau is adjusted to and you know, he's kind of thrown some stuff against the wall, uh, and they've stuck. You know. Obviously the biggest thing was
he just got sick and tired of cameraon paint. Like if there are there, if everybody on the Knicks gets hurt, and there's like four guys, uh, five guys on the bench, you know, Tom Tippodau is gonna go Hoosiers and just
play with four rather than play with campaign. And you know, it's it's one of those things where I think that there's been some adjustments made that have worked against this Indiana offense, and now it just comes down to Game six whether or not the Knicks can can go and get a big road win in Indianapolis.
So I will say this to me, the main difference last night, And I don't know how much of this is. And by the way, if the Pacers are playing possum here, if they decided to mail it in, then that's a dangerous approach. So I don't know how much of it had to do with Indiana's inability to actually or get up and down with pace like they've been able to quite frankly since January if you've been watching them. But last night Tony was the first game in the entire
series where I thought the Knicks actually gave. They didn't have to give forty eight minutes because it was basically over in the fourth, But I'll say the Knicks gave thirty two to thirty four minutes of intense defensive effort, like they were closing out on the perimeter. They weren't giving as much space to Halliburton, who did not have a good game. Like when you go back and watch what happened in Indiana when the Pacers hung one thirty on the Knicks in game four. Yes, give Halliburton a
ton of credit for a historically special offensive game. Give the Pacers credit for getting up and down the floor and knocking down shots, But this is not your grandfather's knicks. There is no Charles Oakley or Anthony Mason or Anthony Bonner. If you want to go deep deep cuts there. You know, there's no big physical, defensive you know, effort. As far as the way the team plays came out. This is not pat Riley or Jeff Van Gunny. This is one
of the better offenses in pro basketball. And their defensive efficiency in the league was around twelve or thirteen if I remember correctly. If they're going to win two more games, they've got to guard the way they did last night for the full forty eight.
Do they have that in them?
Well, I think it's gonna be tough, because I mean, these series are every other day. The series is every other day all the way through. I mean, so you know it's gonna be tough on the legs, you know. Last night, I mean I think they had a shot of adrenaline, you know, from from the crowd, you know, But this is gonna be a road game in game six, you know, now, the shot of adrenaline is gonna be come from Hey, your season ends if you lose this game tonight, and then you have, you know, an off
season of questions that you have to face. But you know you're gonna have to. I mean, it's gonna be, you know, one of those things where you're gonna have to manufacture your own energy and you're not gonna have you know, the Garden crowd behind you. Now, you know the one thing that we both know is that the Knicks have played extremely well on the road during this playoffs.
And you know, down two Zho after losing two in the Garden, they did go and they did get a game, which is what they needed in Indiana, and it had to be game three because you know, you're not coming back from a three to zero deficit. So you know, winning a game four after losing a game three wouldn't have meant anything. But what they have done after that horrific o to start with both of those losses at home, they have at least given themselves a chance, right, so
they knew what the formula was. Okay, you lose both games at home, you know the series is probably over. So what's the formula. The formula is you have to win game three because you're not coming back from three zero down. So they won game three. Obviously they lost game four, but they won game five. So you know, it comes down to can they win the game six.
The one thing that I do think is in their favor is that, you know, for the first time this series, I think Indiana is going to face some series pressure because they know they have to win this Game six, because they can't have this go back to a Game seven in New York. You know, so their shots are going to mean something for the first time in this series, and they're just not playing with house money like they've been playing, you know, for for for most of the series.
But you know, if if New York doesn't get it done tomorrow night in game six, man oh man, oh man, oh man, are they going to rule game that Game one where they allowed uh that historic rally for for oh one deficits No man.
You called it, and I talked about it on the show as well, and then privately with you know, Nick fan buddies of mine. That's just it's hard to come back from. You know, It's one thing just to lose home Court. It's another thing to have your soul snatched from you after losing a game where you clearly were
in the driver's seat. But to me, I'm gonna come back to I'm gonna come back to a couple of things as far as how I believe the Knicks can actually get this done, because I do feel like the way some people have talked about this series isn't necessarily true. I think these two teams are very evenly matched, and I think it's a close situation. I could see Indiana dump trucking New York on Saturday and winning in six. I could see the next winning on Saturday and losing
Game seven of the Garden. And I could see either, you know, I could see any of the three scenarios left on the table actually happening. This is going to come down to effort on defense for New York to close out to get back in transition. Then it's gonna come down to possessions, meaning you have to offensive rebound, and then you have to take care of the basketball,
which leads me to a couple of players. Okay, So I love Josh Hart and Josh's you know, his attitude and embracing the role that he's been asked to embrace, coming off the bench and be in a bat out of hell has been awesome. But sometimes he makes passes that remind me of like the kid in the neighborhood whose mom forced him to play junior jazz to make friends, and he doesn't know how to play. Josh makes some of the dumbest passes that I've ever seen in my life.
And there are moments where Carl Towns just forgets how to play defense, so he grabs onto somebody and just cot commits fouls. And I hesitate to go too hard on Kat because I actually think he's been great and Indiana does not having a matchup for him. He's eating Miles Turner's lunch and your boy Tony Bradley, Your boy Tony, Tony Bradley, you know he's not the answer, and neither is neither is Thomas Bryant. They have nobody to guard Kat. But Kad has to realize, like, let the dude go,
don't grab him, don't commit stupid fowls. You're too important. You need to be on the floor. And there are just some josh Ard passes that leave me scratching my head. This, to me, Tony comes down to some simple things for New York, and it's the way Tom coaches, which is
good news. You've got to guard, you have to close out on the preimiti you have to get back in transition, and then it is a possession matchup offensive rebound, which is where Mitchell, Robinson and Kat have the advantage, and then take care of the basketball, do not turn it over. If they can do those things, I still think there's a world where New York wins this series.
Taking care of the basketball Tomorrow night, for me, goes to the top of the line by leaps and bounds. If Indiana is able to get in transition, force the pace, force the tempo, get up and down, the series is over. There's not a road that New York can win that game. So the Knicks are gonna have to take care of the basketball. They're gonna have to get a shot up every possession. They're gonna have to defensive rebounds, and when they defensive rebound, they're gonna have to go and make
those guys guard for twenty four seconds of possession. And they're gonna have to do it without turning the ball over, without giving up turnovers, for touchdowns, without giving up turnovers, and allowing them to play ninety four feet. They want Indiana to have to play forty seven feet, not ninety four feet. They want that game in a half court tomorrow. They got the game in a half court for the
first time this series. Even in the Game three that they won, that game was still played in the full court. New York just played, I mean well, cat just played a historic fourth quarter and they they came back and got that one. But other than Game five, Game five was the first game of the series where New York was actually able to slow the pace down and get this game to where get that game to the speed
where they wanted it. And that's going to be really important tomorrow, trying to get that game out of the ninety four feet because you know it's going to be in Bainbridge and it's you know, those guys are going to get up and try to get up and down the floor, you know, so they have to do that. And the one subtle thing that they have to do
that not many people are talking about. When New York makes a basket, they have to bust back on defense because any end of the best team in the league at taking that ball out than that and running off of mate. And they've done it over and over and over again this series and figured out ways to get open shots. And you know, when Jalen Brunson or Karl Anthony Towns. They go to the basket, you know, and
they flail and they they get on the floor. Whether they make that shot or miss that shot, they got to get up and they got to get back because Indiana's coming back and playing five on four and they've done it over and over and over again in this series. So you know, I agree with every single point that you say, the turnovers to take care of the ball.
If they if they can figure out a way to take care of the ball and get a shot on ninety of their possessions, I think they actually have a chance to come on that.
All right, Moving over to the West, and I'll just ask the question simply, does it really matter who wins out of the Knicks and the Pacers because it just feels like Oklahoma City. Well, if we're honest in it for fair, they've had this level all year long. I think people were waiting to see if they had the level in the postseason. So Tony okse is eighty and eighteen this year, they are twenty nine and one against the East.
The only game they lost was at Cleveland.
Maybe we should just acknowledge that this team is historic.
They're great now They're going to be great for a long time.
Do either of the Knicks or the Pacers have a shot in Hell of making the finals?
Interesting, I don't think the Knicks too. I think the Knicks lose in five, if not a sweet I think Iniana can get it to six, maybe seven if they play above their heads, because I think in the styles make fights, and I think Indiana plays a style that had a chance to give Oklahoma City some issue. I don't think that Knicks have a chance in Hell, because you know, they play, you know, Jalen Bronson plays a lot of isolation basketball, and you just can't do that
against Oklahoma City. You know, you saw what they did against Anthony Edwards. You saw what they Didga did against John Morant in the first in the first in the first round. The difference in the second round, and one of the biggest reasons why Denver was able to take that series to seven is because Denver doesn't Denver doesn't play isolation basketball. You know, they run a lot of Gebel handoffs, they run a lot of movement. All five
guys handle it, all five guys shoot it. Obviously. You know, there's a Nicola Jokish factor he's the best player in the world. But you know, they play a brand of basketball to where you know, Alex Carusso and Cason Wallace and Lou Dort just can't key on one ball handler. You know, Minnesota plays a lot of isolation basketball, and that just wasn't gonna work. And so you know, the point is Indiana doesn't do that. Indiana moves the ball.
They put it through five guys. And the one thing that the Tyreese Halliburton's superpower is that he never ever turns the basketball over. And against Oklahoma City, you know, if if that rings true, then you know that's that's a matchup that you know, Okay, so he just hasn't seen so far in this playoffs. Now there's still a better team and they'll probably still figure it out as the series goes on, and they'll probably still win that series in six. But at least that series will be
to me, will be interesting. Uh, Oklahoma City and New York is gonna be a mismatch. I think it ends in five, if not four. So the the answer is if we want to see the finals, that we actually want to watch roof or Indiana the winner series?
All right, moving over to a little jazz before I set you loose. You know, we are a few weeks away. We'll turn our calendars to June, coming up on Monday, and then we've got about three and a half weeks until the draft.
So let's just talk big picture.
There's not a lot of individual specific things that I can ask you about that we haven't already discussed. So Jazz with two first rounders, two second rounders at least that's what they have now, and just wondering what you're hearing about the overall approach. And then I'll actually add a second question just because our listeners will be curious to what your take is. Have you changed your opinion on who best case scenario is at number five as we approach Draft night?
No, I mean best case scenario to me, in my opinion is who's ever left out? As you know VJ asked from Trey Johnson or Ace Bailey. You know, I know that you know there's some contin Nipple talk out there. I know that there's some Jeremiah Fears talk out there. But for me, you know, I think that the Jazz has to take somebody at five that has the outcome of a star or a superstar. To me, that's not Continental.
I think Continentple was going to score fifteen to eighteen points a game for ten years in the NBA, and he's not going to be a superstar or a star. So even if you know with you know, the floor that as Bailey has, which I think he has, you know, a really low floor, but I also think he has a super high feeling. You know, I think that the Jazz just have to go ahead and swing if he's the guy that's there at five, and take that chance, because you know, they went and lost sixty five games
this year. You know, you go and you lose sixty five games, and you know you pretty much that's your intentional outcome. You better take somebody that you can develop into a superstar level player or a star level player. And I think that you know as fairly has you know, a star level outcome at one hundred percent of the ceiling. I think the same of VJ. Ask Them. I think the same as Trey Johnson. I don't think VJ as Them will be there at five. I think that he
goes either three or four. And you know, I think that VJ is probably the safest of those three in that tier because of uh, because of his athleticism. I mean, he is a very, very very gifted athlete, and he's a very very gifted defender as well. So I think that he's probably my bet to be the first one of those three off the board. And I think that my bet is that Aces is the one that's available
to the Jazz at five. So uh, if I were, if I were the Jazz, and I were handicapping that staying and this is just me talking and not the Uthah Jazz, I will be taking Ace Bailey with the fifth pick of the June of the twenty twenty five NBA Draft.
One more thing, I'll set you loose.
Tim McMahon hopped on this week, and I don't know if this was solid intel or Tim just pontificating Kyrie Irving's injury. He floated Colin Sexton out as a potential target for the MAVs to utilize while Kyrie's getting well. The Jazz Actually, ironically enough, even though the books are clean moving forward, they probably will not have a lot of space cap space this summer. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say John Collins picks up his thirty million dollar player option.
Now if John doesn't.
First of all, wow, Second of all, the Jazz actually have a little flexibility, But I don't think he's going to opt out. So any thoughts on potential moves other than the draft.
They're not in a spot.
To sign a bunch of free agents even if they could, they don't have the cash. So well, they kick the tires on a Colin Sexton, a John Collins, a Jordan Clarkson, the usual suspects. Are there any other avenues to potentially add a little bit of talent outside of the draft capital of the Jazz having their back.
Pocket, Well, they'll they'll explore John Collins trade for sure. Uh And I would not be surprised that John is traded this summer because he'll he'll pick up the player option, but he's going into the last year. It'll be it'll be an expiring and you know, frankly, he had a really good year last year. Uh and yeah, it's a terrific shooting year, all right, So you know, I think that there are teams out there that will give value for a an expiring John Collins. We'll see what happens
with Jordans. My guess is that he probably doesn't have uh that kind of value on the market this summer because I don't think he had a great season last year, you know. And we'll see what happens with with Colin Section as well. You know, I don't think that the Jazz are adverse trading any of the three or all of the three. I don't think that they're averse to
having those guys on the roster uh going forward. But you know, I do think that John is probably, if I had to guess, the most likely to go, just because of the season that he had last year. UH. And then they'll you know, I think the big thing. I think they'll go out and they'll get a veteran point guard. It's sure, no matter what happens in the draft. You know, I don't think that they'll go in the next year, you know, without giving Isaiah Callier some some
some competition at that spot. So UH, I think that they are reasonably sure that Keynte George is not a point guard at this point. So you know, I think that that, you know, I think point guard will be uh an area of a focus for them, uh in the offseason.
All right, ton, my guy will set you loose, But I'll have this ad one more time.
Is do not let us win game six?
Win game six, Just don't don't let us do it. Just finish us off. You better finishes off.
That's what I'm saying. All right, brother, good, thanks for the time. Have a great weekend.
All right, Yes, sir, I appreciate you. My guy Tony.
Jones, our guy Tony stops by today courtesy of our friends at IFA Country Store. Summer vacations and warmer weather, or just beyond the horizon. As the days grow longer and brightly colored flowers be in making their appearance, it's time to start planning and applying Step two of I Phase four plus annual lawn care program designed with a blend of vital macro and micro nutrients. IFA Step two fertilizer promotes strong roots and vibrant colors in your yard. At IFA and IFA dot co Op, we're you a
little golf in a bit with Paul Pugmyer. We'll see what's on the Golf Show tomorrow. There's a big tournament on the PGA Tour. We have Dave mcminnimon on the program today, Zach Harper later on, as well.
A lot of good NBA.
Guests and our guy Howard Back, one of the hippies riders around on this beautiful Friday afternoon, stops by Howard.
Happy Friday, Sir, how.
Are you, Spence? How you doing so?
God man? I'm good. I'll tell you what.
If you were on a European vacation and did not see the first four games of Knick Spacers and watched last night, you'd be like, what gives?
Like?
Why are the Knicks down?
You know, certainly there was a physicality and an intent defensively that we hadn't seen from New York.
I don't know if Indiana is relying.
On closing it out at home, but in a vacuum that last night felt a little bit like a mismatch.
What are your takeaways?
That this was game five of a series where everything has been really close, and most of the games have essentially been a coin flip, and maybe we were due for one that was a little upsided, and especially on a night where the Knicks were facing elimination on their home court, where you expect they're going to absolutely fight like hell and not allow.
Themselves to be extinguished.
So I don't think anything surprised me. Yeah, Obviously they bottled up Haliburton pretty well, and maybe a little bit of that's on him, and maybe that little that's them just pressuring him and picking him up full court at times, or at least picking him up in the back court
and making him work a little. The Pacers obviously at their best when they're just getting out and running and pushing the pace like crazy, and they're they're moving quickly, the balls pinging around, and the Knicks took them out of that. Can they do it again tomorrow night? In indeed, we'll see, but I don't the margin of last night's game is not is not striking to me that the Knicks would win an elimination game is kind of like the thing, and it's not unexpected.
Yeah, and you know, the Halliburton stuff is interesting. I know we're supposed to like debate whether or not he's a superstar. I don't really have any interest in doing that. But he does have games like that from time to time.
I think I read today thirteen games in the regular season doubled it or he would he did not score in double digits thirteen times, and in those games the Pacers were three and ten, so they certainly need him to be a little bit more aggressive, but there are times where he just I don't know what it is. I don't know if it's just not locked in for a moment one. I don't know if New York did something schematically that was a little bit different.
I'll give Jalen some credit.
They were three or fourteen last night when Jalen was the primary defender, and prior to that, they had just been able to feast whenever Halliburton was able to get that switch. But what and you've been watching Halliburton forever, I know you're high on him, have been for a while. What happens when he does have a game like last night when he just didn't look fully engaged.
I don't think it's about engagement necessarily. And I would just note, like so on our podcast today on the Real Ones pod, Rajah Bell, who of course once played in your city, made the point that and I think it's a really important point when we're talking about stars in the NBA and what you expect from them, and this relates to what we saw from Haliburton. Nor didn't
see you last night. He's not built like the typical or the prototypical star, right he is not the guy to just go get you a bucket every time you need one.
He's not a high usage or super high usage guy.
He has the ball in his hands a lot, but he's more of an old school point guard. He's more of an orchestrator. He like there are times when their coaching staff and Indy has to remind him, hey, sometimes it's okay to call your own number. You're giving the ball up too soon in the possession. So he's he's usually going to try to set up his guys and look for his guys first, and then when he scores, it's when it comes back to him and he's open for a three, or he's got a chance to catch
a guy off off kilter and drive by him. But he's not the I'm gonna put the ball between my legs seven times dribble, dribble, drible dribble, you know, and then.
Zip past you or step back three or whatever. Like.
That's not really his game. He's, you know, a more contained scorer, more of a playmaker.
He's been leaving.
I think he led the league and assists for the last couple of years. So you do need him to shooting. You do need him to score, but you don't necessarily need him to be say Anthony Edwards, who was you know, notably, you know, missing an action when they got eliminated the other night. So aggression for Haliburton doesn't necessarily mean score a lot, dribble a lot, shoot a lot. It's more just attack and put the defense on its heels so that you can open up stuff for nim Hart and
Nie Smith and Siakam. And you know, I don't expect we're going to see another game like that from him, but.
Some of that was the next defense.
Yeah, you know, I do think that was the first game where and it wasn't forty eight minutes because I didn't need all forty eight minutes. But I don't know what took so long. And look this, let's be clear. I talked about this earlier in the show. This is not your grandfather New York Knick basketball team. There's no oak or Mace or you know, the Anthony Bonner Let's go deep cuts hour like. This is not a big, physical defensive team. I think there were thirteen in the
NBA in defensive raiding and they have defensive holes. But offensively is where they've been certainly much improved. Last night may have been the first game where I thought they gave concerted defensive effort for I'll say thirty two to thirty four minutes. They're gonna have to do that even more in Indianapolis. Then they're gonna have to take care of the basketball in a way that at times this
series that they just had. Like I love Josh Shart, but he makes some passes that reminds me of the neighborhood kid his mom forced him to play little league basketball to make friends, Like he makes some of the dumbest reads, and then Cat in moments will just like get beat and grab somebody and commit like the dumbest fouls. So they're gonna have to offensive rebound. It's gonna be a possession game. They're gonna have to take care of
the basketball. And can they replicate the same defensive effort during Game six on the road, Like that's really what it comes down to to me.
Yes, all of that, And I think taking care of the basketball is such a huge, huge part of this because the Pacers absolutely thrive off of turnovers and get in anything that they can take to get out and run. And so you know you've got to keep them off. You know, you've got offensive rebound because you don't want them to defensive rebound and get out and run. You don't want to you don't certainly don't want to turn the ball over and make lazy passes or anything that'll that ignites.
Their fast break.
But the Pacers at their best also will just you know, even off of a make, we'll just get out and and fly. And I didn't see as much of that last night, and I think that that's what you'll see more of again tomorrow. You know, like the the Pacers are going to want to play this thing at break next speed, and the next goal is to slow that down because that's the way they needed to do it to win. The Pacers need the easy baskets. I don't
think there's as as great in the half court. And you know, we'll see like that's that's been part of the tension of this series from the start, was you know whose pace that they're going to be playing at.
Last time you were on, I asked you, hey, can can TIBs find ten minutes for Landry Shammitt? Can he find ten minutes for precious at YOUA? Apparently Tom does watch tape and watch. Cameron Payne was like, what's wrong with me? I don't know that I want to do that anymore. The problem, Howard, as I see it, is Rick has played eleven and twelve guys all year long, fifteen plus minutes each, right, and so what Tom is
trying to do now? I respect the endeavor, so his starters don't look like they're dying in the fourth quarter, But give me your takeaways on how Tom has used his bench and the returns that he's seen with some of these pieces that we haven't seen play for him pretty much all year.
I mean, it's wild, like there was, you know, like the idea that that suddenly in the middle of a series where you're down where you've lost home court advantage, you've lost the first few games at home, and now suddenly, out of the blue, you've gone from a seven manter rotation to playing Delawn right, Landry Shammitt, Precious Atua Like it's it's it's interesting and it's worked, and so like credit to him for pulling that lever at the right time, and to those guys for being up for the challenge
after being you know, in moth balls for however many weeks. It does go straight to the main criticism, one of the main criticisms that you often hear from Knicks fans, and Knicks fans are very I think split on Tom Thibodeau, and there I have I have friends who are Knicks fans who would like to see him fired tomorrow, regardless.
Of how this series goes, I think.
And part of it is the frustration over the rotation. It's it's the lack of developing a deeper rotation and leaning too hard on the starters and playing them a ton of minutes, and the concerns about fatigue or injury. I mean, they're healthy right now. They're pretty as healthy as the team's going to be in the playoffs and the conference finals, and so those fears haven't really manifested this time through. But you know, there's more to it than just like, oh, they avoided injury.
It's, you know, it is.
How fresh are you at this stage? How fresh are you in the fourth quarter of a tight game at this stage? And yeah, can you can you give Brunson a few minutes of you know, a breather now and then?
And they're doing it and it's working, and I expect that that will be more of the same tomorrow, although if things get tight, it'll be interesting to see if Tibbs, you know, shortened the rotation again and thinks like, well, you know, we're on the road facing elimination again, and maybe I'm just gonna rely on the seven guys who got.
Us this far.
Some of this, too, of course, has.
Just been necessity.
Right.
Brunton was in foul trouble one of the games. Townses have failed trouble pretty much every game, and so I think a little bit of this has been forced on him.
So if Indiana closes it out tomorrow, and I'm inclined to believe that's probably the case. Although with how wacky and wild this has been, I honestly believe all three scenarios are still on the table. Nick's winning tomorrow and Nick's winning in seven, Pacers winning tomorrow, or Pacers losing tomorrow and winning in seven. I could see how three of those things happen.
That's serious.
One of the wildest stats that I read, and I don't this is not up to date after last night, but prior to last night, Jalen Brunson, as far as assists to Cat in the series, he has one a single assist from Jalen to Cat in the series prior to last night, maybe a couple last night, and you know, when you stagger the two, it has some decent returns. If they lose, do the Knicks recalibrate, because there's part of me that actually feels like they.
Were a little bit of heead of schedule.
They should not be the Boston Celtics and the Tatum's upright, Maybe they don't, I don't know, And when you look at their books, this is pretty much their team as far as the core, with Cat and Og and Jalen and Bridges and Heart Mitchell Robinson under contracts, so was Deuce McBride. But if they lose tomorrow, is there a recalibration as far as you know, maybe this isn't working.
Is there a look at the head coach?
Do they look at the personnel or do they continue to kind of stay on the path that Leon Rose has kind of pay for them.
It's a great question.
I have thought about this a little at times, especially when I thought that they were less likely to be at this point, and you know, you you try not to be a prisoner of the moment, and certainly front offices have to be disciplined about this. If you you know you you you go down too. Oh, you lose some court advantage, You win the series, you go to the finals, you probably get smoked by the thunder whoever the thunder face, they're going to smoke them, I think.
But does that change things? Does getting the finals change the way you see this five man unit and this rotation versus if they lost tomorrow. How big of a difference does it make over you know, two more games or something, two more wins or something. So that's why you need a sober minded front office. And I think this is one I think that the things that they're
gonna have to contemplate. One is if, especially if you lose this series, but even in the finals, can you how if you have a built in ceiling with a lineup where your two stars are defensive liabilities, where every time you have Bernthon into out there together, one or the other both are getting get attacked, and that's going to leave you vulnerable to more talented teams. There's that
there's also a payroll aspect of this. You know, Brunson took you know what was called a discount, but it's not that big of a discount when he took his last extension. Tounses of course on the max. That's the reason why the Timberwolves want to trade him in the first place. Annoby's got a huge, huge contract that they gave him last summer, and Bridges has a modest contract but is due for an extension that will be less modest. And so you're going to start facing second apron issues
and other problems. And we as we know whatever you feel about Landry Shammitt, the Delon writer, whoever else, they don't have much of a bench and the depth is an issue. So do you get to the offseason and think I can flip I don't know, Mikhail Bridges and or Mitchell Robinson for more depth or cheaper pieces. That's an interesting thing to contemplate. And yeah, I mean it's one year in with Towns.
Are you already in.
A position where you're gonna talk about trying to flip him for something else? Like I think there might be a market for him out there, But he's a super talented big who does not protect the rim so's he's pretty much a one way player. We know all the flaws and they've been exposed again. How much of a market is there is he or is is his contract becoming like a net negative? Do you have to attach something to get somebody to take him? I don't know.
I don't know the answers that I have not pulled people around the league on it, but it's an interesting question for them to grapple with.
You alluded to this earlier.
Let me just follow up though, Do either the NIXT or the Pacers have a shot in hell at making Oklahoma City uncomfortable? I mean, Howard, Okay, see eighty and eighteen this year? How about twenty nine and one against the East, And I would like to see the next you make it to the finals and you know, see what they could do it just and maybe the Pacers with their you know what. Never mind, I feel like both these teams get smoked by Okay, see what about you?
I think it's probably five games, Yeah, really, especially when you see how they just completely, methodically, ruthlessly dismantled the Timberwolves. And the Timberolves are a good team, Like is there is there any massive difference just overall between the Minnesota Timberwolves and the Pacers. The Minnesota Timperwolves and the Knicks, Like these teams are all basically in the same I
think tier talent wise, accomplishment wise, whatever. Like, you know, we could we could go down the list of you could compare player to player, offense, offense, defense, if all of this, But like, I don't know that the Knicks or Pacers have any great advantages that the Timberwolves did not, And so yeah, I don't see why the Thunder should have trouble with either of them, barring something unforeseen, an injury or something crazy happening. I think it'll be a short series.
Would lowry market and start for the Thunder? No, he wouldn't.
I don't think so.
He wouldn't.
H Yeah, No, I don't think he would.
No, he wouldn't.
It's a fun game to play, right, Like, how many of the best teams would.
He start for?
Yeah, I mean, I will admit I chuckled a little bit. I was listening to Chris Finch and his post well postseason presser after they lost, and he said, you know, thirteen teams in the West will be in the mix next year to potentially have really good years. I'm like, all right, Well, that's obviously excluding the Jazz and probably the Blazers. But we'll end on this because you wrote some today. First of all, thank you for the Buddhist drop.
It reminded me to meditate and center several different paths to the same goal. But you know, I'd really try to do this with my NBA coverage here in Salt Lake. Like if you look at the way Sam Presty built the Thunder, are there lessons to learn right now? The problem is the Jazz turned Donovan Mitchell into marketing, and Presty turned Paul George into Shay and Jay's the MVP
and Marketing is just a nice player. So before I say you loose, based off of your piece and based off of your knowledge about how in the modern day and age of the NBA there are several different ways to do this. How did the Jazz do this? How do they make it happen? Based off of some examples of teams that we have who have been able to rebuild and now have very good rosters.
Yeah, no, thanks for the plug. Everybody, Please go check out the story at the Ringer dot com. The premise was that there's different ways to build a contender now and that the Pacers did not build in a typical way. And even if you look at the four conference finalists, like these are not what we thought of a contender in the past, right where it was like, oh, get a top five guy, superstar whatever, go trade for or poach another one and you know, build a big two,
of Big three, a big four. These teams have been built differently, and in the Pacers case, very methodically.
Like the Pacers build really.
Is almost like a ten year project. If you start with drafting my Ales Turner, who's their longest tenured player, and you go back to the Paul George to Oklahoma trade and all the things that is spun off of that, and it's just been piece by piece, and I think the main lesson is the one that Todd Ramas are the agent for Pascal Siakamander Nemhard mentioned to me when I was asking him about this, which he settled on
a single word, which is patience. And patience is hard to come by in this league, as you know, as Jazz fans, I'm sure no as Danny Ainge and Justin Zanik know. And there is a youngsh owner there and those guys tend to be the more impetuous ones and the less patient ones. But listen, he you know, green lighted the blow up and the rebuild. So the hope
is that and listen, this is tough. This is because as I say this, I say this as a dispassionate thirty thousand foot view observer who says, well, the right way to do this is to be really patient and you know, piece by piece and whatever, don't rush it, don't try to whatever. And meanwhile, jazz fans are this, They're going like, yeah, but we've already suffered through the last couple of seasons, like get going. And I get that.
And that's the problem, right, or the challenge. You've got fans who you can only you know, do this too for so long, and an owner who doesn't want to.
Take the heat for that long.
And also, hey, owners want to win. They got professional pride and ego too, And so that's why, like with the Pacers, their whole thing was like, we're never going to do a tear down. They never they never really tanked, at least not intentionally. They didn't you know, have multiple you know, top three picks or anything. In fact, no top three picks, and the Jazz are doing it more
of the old sixer process. Way where it's like, we're's gonna be bad for a few years and get as many bites at the apple and the lottery as we can and hope for the best. So but you still
have to be patient. Whatever your root is, whatever strategy you've chosen, you still have to be patient with it and believe in it and try not to do the panic move where it's like, oh, the owner's getting antsy or the fans are getting antsy, let's go trade for I was going to say a specific name, but some flawed star that another team is ready to give up on. You got to pick the right guys to build around.
And that's the other thing too, And I kind of gave a short shrift to this in the piece today, and I wish I'd put more into this.
Aspect of it.
But like the Pacers also picked the right guys, Like they these guys are all leaping off the page stars, but they got good character guys and guys who are selfless and like the reason that they've got such a great offense starts with Halliburton and his selflessness. But they're all willing to sacrifice and keep the ball moving, and that's really important. So you have to be patient, and you have to build the right guys or build.
With the right guys.
Last thing I'll set you loose on this, is it possible to build culture while being unseerious about competing.
Yeah, I think you can. I was one who did not buy into like there were a zillion different criticisms and moral hazard arguments about what the Sixers were doing with the process, and one of them was, you know, oh, you're gonna ruin these guys. They're gonna you know, they're gonna just learn how to lose, and they're gonna learn bad habits. And there's not like the culture is gonna be bad and it's gonna produce bad players. And then people would cite Julia local for well, that was Julia
Locofor's fault. Frankly, like he just wasn't a good NBA player and wasn't good enough enough of a worker, serious enough himself. But like, as one example, TJ. McConnell was part of the process Sixers and he's like become a really great bench player, not having the greatest series, but a really good bench player for the Pacers. I don't think it necessarily, I think multiple years of it does create a little bit of like a franchise wide malaise,
and I think that can seep into things. But I think you set the culture in terms of the values of how hard you're gonna work and what kind of team you want to be. The selflessness, the hard work, all that. That tone gets set by primarily the coach, and then when you get your guys, that's like, maybe you don't start with the superstar, right, maybe it's the middle build where you know you've got like the the Nie Smith types or nemhrds or whatever, and you're waiting
to get the star. And if those guys are grinders and they're built that way, then they're setting the culture by the way they approach practice and games every day.
Right.
So I don't think the losing, or even the kind of the planned losing, the tanking mode necessarily poisons the well. I think it depends on who you're bringing in as players and coaches during that time, and are you taking every day seriously even though structurally you're designed to not win much. If that makes sense.
It does make sense.
Howard, he who knows knows not he who knows, he knows not knows. I just want to end on some Buddhism based.
Off your piece.
Phenomenal.
I love it.
I appreciate your time, my friend. Have a good weekend.
All right, all right, Spencer too, take care.
Hi the Great Howard back from the Ringer.
He's mostly on Blue Sky these days, but you can find all of his work at the Ringer dot com. Stop spot today, Curcy. To our friends at Courtland Roofing. Have you noticed that it's very warm outside? Well it is. It's about eighty five degrees today. The weekend is going to be ninety plus. Well cool, cool down a little bit next week, but we're about to turn our calendars
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they'll knock that off the price. So if you've been waiting for now's the time. Do it before the weather gets scorching hot and call Courtland Roofing today at eight oh one six one five five five six zero. That's eight oh one six one five five five six zero eight oh one six one five five five six zero or online at Cortland Roofing dot com. Give you a uinter Golf PGA Tour update coming up in just little bits. Dave mcmanimon from ESPN as our guest in the four
o'clock hour, followed by Zach Harper. So a lot of good playoff basketball and jazz offseason stuff and the draft, etc.
On the way, But let's talk a little golf DGA tour is.
Let's see, we got the memorial tournaments going on at Mirefield Village in Dublin, Ohio, twenty million dollars on the line, won last year by you know, Scotti Scheffler. Because Scotty won everything last year, and Scotty's in the mix Paul Pugmyer Friday afternoon.
Happy Friday, sir, How are you good?
Good?
Hell?
Are you doing spance?
I'm good, man, I'm good. Where do we find you? I think last week you were down south? Yeah?
Yeah, And I actually just rolled back into my office. Played up at the barn this morning and it is beautiful. What a lovely golf course.
Oh there you go.
Well, it's always a good day when you get out and swing at Paul.
How was Saint George last week?
Saint George was incredible. The lp GA Legends are aptly named legends for a reason.
It was.
It was quite an experience to see these some of the very best players in the women's game in the world and in history, members of the World Golf Hall of Fame, people who will be members of the World Golf Hall of Fame. And I specifically am referring to the winner, Christy Kerr, who I think is a future Hall of Famer. It was an incredible event.
All right.
So let's move over to what the PGA Tour has going on this weekend. The memorial tournaments, i'll say, presented by Workday. Shout out to their sponsor, Dublin not that Dublin, Dublin, Ohio at Mirefield Village Golf Club cool twenty mill on the line. So that's an elevated events, right, Paul, I mean that's.
What that means.
Absolutely, Yes, Okay, tell me about this track, Mirfield Village Golf Club in Dublin, Ohio.
So glad you asked it is. It is a great, great golf course with an incredibly interesting history. After Jack Nicholas won his fourth Masters, and at the time that was the most anybody had won, Arnold Palmer Hood won for Jack joined him and the two of them had
four Masters each. Jack decided at that point that he wanted to leave a mark with a great golf course, leave a legacy with a great golf course, in the same way that his boyhood idol, Bobby Jones left the mark, left a legacy with a great golf course.
For Jones.
It was augusta national and Jack set out, inspired by his fourth Masters when inspired by the desire to be more like Bobby Jones, and he set out to create what became Mirfield Village nearby Columbus, Ohio, his hometown and named after and in homage to Mirfield in Scottland, where he had had both heartbreak and and stirring victory. But this golf course was Jack Nicholas's first real major course that he designed. This is what launched his golf course
design career as well. Interestingly, it nearly wiped him out financially. This was at a time when winning a PGA tournament netted the winner for forty five thousand dollars. Nicholas, of course had money. He was the best in the world, and he had business interest and endorsements and all that. But he made the decision to control his own fate by not bringing on partners and by financing it and running it all himself. It nearly wiped him out financially,
but he built a great golf course. It became the home of this tournament. Now that is Jack's tournament, the Memorial, and it is jack'slegacy that he wanted to leave to the golfing world, and it is one of the great Oh.
Okay, that's why the Golf channel was showing a bunch of Tiger highlights where he was shaking Jack's hand after kicking everybody's ass a bunch of years.
All right, that makes sense.
That's a part of the tradition, Jack and Barber are standing there waiting for the winner when the winner comes off the seventy second hole on Sunday. Actually they shake hands with everybody, but it is the winner that stands out. And yes, Jack Nicholas is waiting there for you on Sunday when you come off the green.
They showed And I know our interviews recently have turned into me just droning on about Tiger's brilliance, but I continued just really.
To be brilliant.
Well, I just continue to be bummed out that I was not into golf at all while he was doing his thing, and I would tune into a final round of a major here or there. But they showed this chip that Tiger had, I think it was on sixteen, you know, the shot I'm talking about, Like, exactly, that's impossible, Paul, give me a get out of town with that. Even Jack was like, that's that's the best shot I've ever seen anybody hit on the game of golf.
Oh yeah. So here's the thing about when you compare Jack Nicholas and Tiger Woods. I think that Jack Nicholas had the greater career, but Tiger Woods played the greatest golf and for it, and that's what we're talking about. There is longevity of excellence, and Tiger's excellence was interrupted by injury and self imposed problems. But during the time that Tiger was at his peak, it was the greatest
golf ever played. And it includes incredible shots and the chip in on sixteen Mirefield Village in the memorial is exactly one of those. And you could you could take any great, great player and stand them there with a bucket of balls and give them two hours and they might not get it within five feet. That shot was so hard. Of course Tiger made it.
Yeah, And to have Jack, out of anybody say that to you, I mean, what a feeling that must have been for Tiger. What you know, random, random question is what does Jack mean to the game? You know, like because you hear a lot of players interviewed about uh yeah, and Scott he talked about this last year, like winning this tournament and getting that handshake from that guy. What what does he mean to the game of golf in the PGA Tour.
There's a little bit of a generational aspect to answering that question, But for people who followed the game and experienced Jack's dominance. It it was beyond Tiger's dominance. One thing that's pretty interesting. And so to answer your question before I go into a subplot here, Jack meant the highest degree of excellence, the highest degree of sportsmanship, the high degree of superlative performance. He meant the very best of the best of the best, and he meant it
over time. And that is the point about Jack Nicholas's career. There is one statistic about Jack Nicholas's career that is staggering and almost silly to say. Every time I even hear myself said, it's almost like I'm making it up. Nicholas won eighteen majors. We know that Tiger won fifteen. Tiger either won or wasn't really in the mix. Nicholas, in addition to his eighteen major championship victories, he had nineteen major championship runner ups. That he's got thirty seven
first or second place in majors. When Jack Nicholas pulled into the parking lot, not only did you know he was going to be the one that had to be beat, and you knew that he would be in the mix Sunday afternoon.
That's a wild, wild stat The number that you just laid. I don't know that I was aware of that entirely. All right, moving over to where we find ourselves. My guy Nick Taylor top the leader board with a seven hunder par. And then you need to because I know you were listening last week and I was like, who the hell's Ben Griffin? Well, I probably should get familiar with Ben Griffin, Paul. He's also a top the leaderboard
at seven seven hunders. So tell me about tell me about Ben Griffin, who is of course coming off coming off the win last week.
Yeah, Griffin is an interesting story.
But before we.
Go there, can I just say, hey, I love me some Nick Taylor too, and so I totally share that with you and Nick. Nick Taylor has a remarkable superpower. When he is in the mix on Sunday afternoon, he closes the deal. His close rate is absolutely incredible. And now, granted, one of his closes was it took a seventy two foot putt on the last hole at the Canadian Open to become the first Canadian in several decades to win the National Open in Canada. But so it takes some
histrionics on occasion. But Nick Taylor has a remarkable ability to close the deal. So if he's still in this position on Sunday afternoon, you can figure out that you can figure that he'll get her done. But let's talk about Ben Griffin fascinating character. Griffin is one of those guys who simply has got better as he's gone along, and you see him on occasion in other sports mid round draft choices coming out of college who just get better in the pros and end up being being All
Star caliber players in different sports. Griffin's one of those guys. He played for University of North Carolina. He's a North Carolina guy. He had a nice and respectable college career, but nothing remarkable. He was an honorable mention All American.
He won a couple of times. He goes down into the developmental tours, goes into the Canadian Tour, did okay, got himself onto the corn Faerry, lost his card, and so he walked away from the game and went and worked as a mortgage loan officer for a year or so, like eighteen months, and then he got the itch again, went to Corn Fairy Q School, got his Corn Fairy card back, and he qualified for the PGA Tour by having a lot of high finishes on the corn Ferry Tour.
He had three top ten finishes, he got a lot of points and with that he got his card for the PGA Tour. And now he's been on the PGA Tour and just keeps getting better. He got his first win in the team event at the Zurich with Andrew Novak earlier, and then of course he won at Colonial, has two wins on the PJ Tour, had a top ten here just recently at Cuail Hollow in the pg Championship, and now he's in the mix at Memorial on Mirrorfield Village, which is a big boy, hard, hard, hard golf course.
Ben Griffin is one of these guys just keeps getting better and he's playing really good golf right now.
I was going to ask you about the difficulty of the course because just kind of tune in a little bit, it seems like it's bringing some of the best golfers in the world just down to their knees. You know, Nick and Bennett seven under, Ox Shay Bati at five under, You've got Scotty because of course at.
Four under, and then more cow was with him as well.
But if you look at the list of names that are either even or above par. I mean heavyweights, you know, because this and some of the players missing the cut are excellent, excellent, some major champions. So the difficulty of this course, how do you articulate why it seems to cause so many issues some of the best players in the world outside of Paul.
Of course, golf is hard.
There are three characteristics that Nicholas purposely built into this course after just and he followed Bobby Jones's model. He spent He spent a lot of time finding the right piece of property before he started the project, and Jones did the same thing when he bought the nursery that became Augusta National. So starting with a great piece of property, there's a lot of elevation change on it, and Nicholas
takes real advantage of the elevation change. And this is a little unfortunate because we're watching it on TV this weekend, and TV flattens a golf course. But you can still see elevation change all the time on every holes. Characteristic number one the elevation change. Number two, it is the way they keep this course manicured and the way they
keep it set up. The rough is penal. It was always Jack Nicholas's stance that hitting the ball in the ref should cost you half a stroke, which is to say, one out of two times that you miss the fair way it should make it should equal a bogie. And the rough is penal at Mirfield. And they've got a little weather going on right now which makes it even heavier and harder. And the ref always always plays a
role at Mierfield Village. And then the third element of the course is the way Nicholas built in angles into the way the shots are played. And this was something that Nicholas really pioneered in terms of planning his attack on a golf course, and that is to play, plan for and play for certain angles on different shots, whether from the tee or into the green. And that characteristic is really accentuated and really requires a superb combination of
planning and secution. And it's a Nicholas design characteristic that is at its best at Mirefield Village.
As I ask you every weekend with these tournaments, draw the line of delineation of players who you think can still win it after two rounds. So we've got Nick and Beat at seven under, I'll say Xander's at two under, and then everyone else below him is even or above par. So, as of now, who do you think like legitimately can still win the thing after two rounds at this course?
Statistically the number that shows up most often is seven shots back after two rounds, and so that would take us to even par. Now I want to go to plus one because that will.
Bring in Tony fen.
Now into the discussion.
So there's two elements you have to figure in this, and actually a third smaller one. But the two big ones are first of all, the number of shots that have to be made up, and secondly, the number of people who have to be passed. In this case, even par seven shots back only takes us to t twelve. It falls off pretty quickly from the minus seven that's leading it with Taylor and Griffin right now, and so there's not a lot of people who have to be passed. However,
those people are pretty high end players. You've got Colin Lord of Kawa, Major champions, Ander Schoffley, Major Champion, Russell Henley, a lock on the on the Ryder Cup, Jordan Spieth, Major Champion, Shane Lowry Major Champion, Scotty Scheffler, Scotty Scheffler. You know, there's there's a lot of really high quality players that would have to be passed coming from seven shots back. But at this point round two mostly in the books, all right, look past seven part it's going to be a hard thing.
Okay, fair enough?
Just a quick thought on Tony one over, so based off of where the field is as you reference his score, he is still top twenty. But we're just waiting for him to kind of find that gear, Paul, aren't we so totally? So is it just a continuous process? Is the orse hard or what do you make of what we've seen from Tony?
Tony has to get his tee ball into the fairway. You cannot attack these greens. You cannot attack pin positions. One of the things I failed to mention about the design characteristic of Mirefield Village, and you see this on Jack Nicholas designs all the time anyway, is that there are sections to the green and you can make the
putting surface. But if you're on the wrong the wrong part of the green for where the pin is that day, you have to put very very defensively, and so you cannot get to the proper section of the green unless you can spin and control your ball, and you will not spin or control your ball coming out of merefield, Billy Truugh. And so it comes down to putting that te ball in play on cut grass. That has to happen to make a move.
All right, kind of a fun little story.
While we await the potential return of Tiger, maybe we should start paying attention to his kid.
No kid, so Charlie.
Well, Charlie six hundred sixty six to win his first aj GA title, a thing that I didn't know was real until he woned.
I'm sure you know about it.
So tell me about this tournament the Tiger's kid Charlie won.
So the a j g A, the American Junior Golf Association is junior tournament that is to say, eighteen years of age and younger for elite elite players. These are the best of the best young kids in the nation and they travel around the country, although it's very weighted toward the East Coast, and they beat on each other and they've got a point system. And this is where
a lot of college recruitment takes place. This and you see time and time again that players who end up having careers that we follow as professionals, you go back in their background and they have had success at AJGA event. You just plain see it all the time. And so getting an AJGA win is significant for Charlie and he has struggled with the aj G A he has he has had a hard time maintaining position and getting points, and so this is a big step forward for him.
Pennyfa your thoughts on this McElroy story where he is not in the field for Memorial and it's the third signature event he's missed this year, And look, I don't know that you. I just figure when you're playing the way he's playing, you'd want to play as much as
possible to win tournaments and make money. J Monahan was asked about it during the opener of the tournament this weekend, and he went to Rory's defense, because you have to defend Rory if you're the commissioner of the dan PGA, of course, but for golf fans, you just want to I mean, this is every time you and I talk live, I come down to one thing, and that is I just miss watching the best golfers in the world all in one tournament playing together, and Rory playing.
As well, if not better than anybody in the world.
What do you make of the fact that he doesn't seem to be playing in the tournaments that a lot of people are hoping he's playing in.
Rory knows that the two big motivational factors for the elevated events, which are points and money. He knows that he'll get plenty of those through other memes. He'll he'll he'll just playing do well in majors. He'll he'll he'll do well enough when he plays that he'll be in the mix for points, and and he'll make enough money. He's making tons of money in other places. I don't think money's a motivational factor for him at this point. What Rory has told us straight up is that what
floats his boat right now is a national championship. And so the US Open, what week, the British Open, the Open Championship, the Scottish Open, but the Australian Open, things like that, the Canadian Open, national championships really have Rory's attention, and he's just straight up, this is where I'm going to build my schedule and the rest will fall in
around that. And I take him at his word, and I think building the schedule is really hard and the travel is really difficult, and whatever works for people, I respect their decisions on what makes it work. And at the end of the day, when we get to the Tour Championship, Rory's going to be there before.
We get to local storylines what we have coming up on the program tomorrow. This does happen in golf from time to time. I think it's more prevalent in contact sports or violent sports like football or you know, basketball players who have injuries that derail their career. And I can remember, really, I don't know, like everybody else, COVID really got me into golf on a insanely dangerous, addictive level. And that's when I started watching a lot of tournaments
and playing a lot of golf. And it kind of coincided with when will Zalaturus kind of broke in on the tour and I can I remember just watching him play, like this kid has game four days and it felt like he was going to go on to win majors and he's only twenty eight, but this is his second back surgery. Paul and pat Riley has this old saying back problems will change your personality. Oh yeah, you know what I mean, and so I've gutted for the kid.
He's out again for the entire year. What's realistic to expect is he is faced with a long recovery once again.
Yeah, it's jarring, it's sad. What a great talent Zala Taurus is. His ability to strike the ball cleanly is world class, top notch. But the golf swing done in certain ways imposes a great amount of torsional stress on your joints and it makes the soft tissue really susceptible to injury. And valad Taurus's swing, though incredibly efficient, creates a lot of torsional stress us and he has tried to take steps to get around that. It hasn't fully
worked yet. One thing you can look for on this is at the top of the back swing, do the players release the lead foot. For a right handed player, the left foot to come with the heel to come
up off the ground. And when you see a player, especially one who swings at very high club head speed, with their left foot still on the ground at the top of the back swing, the left heel on the ground at the top of the back swing, they are increasing and accentuating the torsional stress, and they are candidates for being hurt. And from what I can tell, that's what's been going on with Wills Alaturus.
All right, Paul, before I set you loose, what's coming up on the program tomorrow and what sort of local golf storyline should we all be aware of.
First of all, it's the City Am this weekend at Bonneville. Of course, we will be at Bonneville with Utah Golf Radio Live on Saturday morning on ESPN seven hundred and celebrating the City AM, one of the amateur majors here in Utah. Otherwise, we will be following up on and going deep on Brigham Young University's deep run into the NCAA National Championship. BYU with all of its incredible legacy
and incredible record and so many great great players. This year was the first year that BYU won a regional in the match play era. This year is the first year that BYU made the cut in the match play Era to play the last round of the strokeplay portion of the National Championship. This is a historic and record setting team for BYU. We're going to go deep on that.
Paul. Thank you for the time, sir. Have a great weekend, have a great show you two. Thank you so much, Ben plug Meyer.
Utah Golf Radio brought to you by our friends that you went to golf toime. Now for our Uent to Golf PGA Tour update, you can join you into golf for the new ping, Scottsdale putters and Bunker Wedges. Visit one of five Utah you went to golf locations or you can check them out at Worldwide Golf Shops dot com. Also visit van Neugolf twenty twenty five dot gifsmart dot com. The sign up for the Van Neu Valor Foundation Black Deser Attorney with our guy, Kyle van Neu I'll be
down there. Come hang out with me, Come play a little golf with our friends. So Vanni Golf twenty twenty five dot gifsmart dot com is where you find it. PGA Tour is the Memorial Tournaments Dublin, Ohio Jack's Course as it's known, and the leader board. I mean, this is an elevated event, so a lot of the big dogs, most of the big dogs outside of mackle Roy Kwifranklin are playing your leaders in the clubhouse after two rounds
are Nick Taylor and Ben Griffin. Both are seven under par Ox, Shay Vatias at five under, Scottie Scheffler.
At four, Sam Burns, Jordan Spieth, Shane.
Lowry three hundred, Parr Russell, hen Hogy, Xander Shotleg Colin Morikawa at two over part. Group of players at even including Justin Rose and Harris English. Let's see Tony Fenw at one over part. He's joined by Ricky Fowler, Patrick Cantley, Keegan Bradley, Ludwig Oberg Is also won over some of the best golfers in the world having a real, real tough time, including Wyndham Clark who barely made the cut, as did j T.
Justin Thomas.
He Takala did not make the cut, neither did Brian Harmon or Lucas Glover.
Tough golf course.
So of course I really want to see the New York Knicks come back in the series and win. But there is a part of me that is cheering for the Pacers to play the Thunder in the finals so we can hear these Prima Donna ESPN media guys bitch and moan about their.
Routes between these two cities.
Our next guest certainly is not in that group certainly is not in that category. He is a man of the people. He enjoys the small towns and cities of America. Dave mcmanamhon, Happy Friday, sir.
How are you yeah?
I mean I was in a small town just like John Cooper, Mela Camp. I go to India.
Let's go okay. Now, the question right off the top is who's going to.
Be the most bummed out if it's Indianapolis and Oklahoma City.
Adam silver If probably my wife because she loves New York, you know. But obviously we're all here for great basketball. And I do believe the way the Knicks have pulled themselves off the mat clearly if they get to the finals, they'll be a formidable team. And India I believed throughout. I mean I may have told you this before. JJ
Reddick may be Indiana's biggest fan. Throughout the regular season, he just louded them for being so good on both sides of the ball, being so disciplined, having a deep bench, having so many switchable defenders who can also shoot, and that's come to bear in the postseason.
That's because he's buddies with TJ.
McConnell and don't feed me this whole, and don't feed me this whole. I'm cheering for good basketball, No part of me believes that day For a second, I am.
Cheering for the personal experience of being able to cover an NBA Finals game in Mad Square Garden. So there's my bias there. Obviously, had some great memories of the Big East Quarter in the Garden with Syracuse when I was in college. I would just love to see the city electric for it. However, Indiana is a great basketball town as well, and that place can get rocket as well. We were just there for All Star Games, you know,
last season. They were great hosts city. So whatever works out so long at what I am truly rooting for is a six or seven game series. I'm tired of these five game series we's got the last couple of years.
Now.
I'm with you there, What do you think the small market will do to the TV number? Because you know, nobody that loves basketball will ever have anything but reverence for the great Spurs teams when they were spurring at the highest level of spurring, But some of those finals numbers were not great as far as the TV audience goes. And New York Indiana has been through the roof, but okay,
see Minnesota, those numbers have not been great. Dave, do you what do you think the small market potential nature. If the Necks can't get this done, we'll do to the eyeballs watching the finals.
Yeah, obviously if the next rout there will be a lower number. Part of the Minnesota OKAC series I covered it was really only was one good game out of five. I mean the other four were quite frankly trash. You know, you had twenty point, forty point, thirty point blowouts in those other four games, and that had something to do with it.
I do I mean a cliche.
It will sound like it's kind of like you write a good story, we'll find it audience. If these are good basketball games, then we'll find an audience. And you know, I think that will be the challenge on whatever team that's coming out of the East will face, is you're going against a rested, well oiled machine that will have home court advantage the thunder and can you make it
a series that will be compelling basketball? Because if it's compelling basketball, like you just kind of throw your hands up and you're like, okay, well, you know That's that's what the league wanted anyway. Right, this whole new CBA was about parody. And if the parody leads to the two teams that getting to the final pinnacle have ability to you know, match styles and and make it a series where it looks like teams that are worthy of that pedestal, like, then I think you live. Whatever the
number is. If the Knicks get there and they get swept in four games like that doesn't do the league any good any either, you know.
It does not.
All Right, before we get I do want to talk Pacers Knicks, but before we do that, let's talk about what happened out this way, because of course you had.
A front row seat.
But before you get there, when you heard Shack's speech last night, didn't make you nervous.
Yeah, just a little bit.
Who do you think he was talking about specifically?
I will not venture a guess. He didn't choose to disclose any names on that one. So I will look forward to seeing how the partnership bears out. I'll say that I personally have had a great relationship with pretty much everyone in that memory. I was just spend a time with Jerry Greenberg and Okay, see. You know we spent time with the Bubble. I've known you EJ and Charles and Shack on a personal basis, not Kunny as much. But you know, I think it will be a great
partnership that will have some quirks to it. I think to figure out at the beginning, but I think it's to be cool to have those guys, you know, holding the FBI and Mic flag at the NBA Finals.
It is so wild you still come on this show when my when my goal every single week is just to make you sweat and corner you and see if I can get you to say so something you'd regret. You're very good at this day.
You know it is. It's like a mental challenge. It's like my Sudoku coming on here and try not to slip off, just keep my brain shut.
Well, good, Look, I want to keep you on your toes. I've got it.
I've got to I've got to keep you honest because I'm sure the other affiliates you go on like.
Hey, tell me about schematically how Jalen Brun some guards the pick and roll.
I want to keep you frosty Dave. I want to keep the energy up.
Yeah, I mean I really want to know exactly who you are and who were you impersonating there, because now I need to put on you.
Like oh man, all right, so you know what, let me let me just ask this question. Can either Indiana or New York make Oklahoma City sweat?
Like when when.
They lock in, when they are guarding, when they're flying up and down. It's of course the sha the shay thing is the shay thing. But they're so deep they're impossible, and you know they have been all year. They're eighty and eighteen, they're twenty nine and one against the East. Do why their New York or Indiana have a shot in hell against OKC?
I mean, I think having seen them completely dismantle a Wolves team that I cover for two rounds and believe that they had a legitimate shot of beating them.
I doubt it.
Whether the Knicks in that rockets atmosphere that be of the Garden would be able to maybe get a little bit further, because that would be a true home court advantage. Possibly. At the same time, they're not like a perfect team.
The thing that gives them a larger marginal area to work with is they create so many turnovers that and they're also a really good crashing those last is that they get like on average in the Minnesota series, who is close to like six or seven more shots on goals in the games that they want, So you don't need to shoot as good of a percentage if you get an extra seven tries to try to you know, keep up offensively. Shake gillis Ender is a master, the
young master of the game. And even if you take away the foul shots, he's still one of the best scores of the twenty twenty five playoffs, So he's incredible. Where I think they do have some vulnerability is Chick looked great in Game four against the Wolves, but he wasn't a huge factor most of that series, and heartsheen can get in faust trouble and you know, so they
are a little vulnerable in the middle. They gets a team like the Knicks that they get there with certainly what we've seen from it to Robinson and Colathona Towns in Eastern Conference Finals. But I think like with the Knicks, the straw that starts to drink and Jaylen Brunson being a little bit undersized and you know, can get you know, kind of crowded by bigger defenders, like they're gonna give him a heck of a time when he gets there.
If it's in they I think they are the most equivalent team in the East to playing the Thunderstile in terms of like it doesn't really matter who gets the numbers, it has spread you out type of style. They can also defend with multiple bodies. I do this kind of feel like like the Knicks, though would would have a slightly better chance. But I will say you're romantic. I like the idea of a team breaking through and winning.
You know, we all know it's been whatever, what's this fifty three years since the next of one?
Mm hmm, yep yep on and we'll see.
We'll get down in the moment though, But ultimately the Minnesota takeaway and look, I cheered for the Timberwolves because we had Rudy here, of course, and who doesn't like Mike Conley. If you don't like Mike Conley, it's a you problem. Nikio Alexander Walker was here wildly. Quinn never never played him, and he was kind of like exactly what they needed. They preferred Royce O'Neil, but we don't have to do a Royce O'Neil vers Nikia Alexander Walker
segment today, and then obviously Joey Ingles as well. I know we're supposed to be mad at Aunt, I guess because I watch your network. I like it's odd to me because he's twenty three years old, and I don't know, I feel like some of the reaction has been people upset that he's not more upset at twenty three years old. With all the game in the world, he's got plenty
of time to live up to the hype. As far as you know, face the league best domestic player or so many of the MVPs as I late been international guys. They probably need to make a decision on Mike because as much as I love him, it just didn't look great this year. He's under contract one more year. You know, as a Nick fan, I'm uniquely qualified to talk about your issues if Julius Randall is your number two offensive option.
Even though it looked awesome for a minute against Achieve Me against Golden State, I thought Julius was probably the best player in that series, and they were also able to beat the Lakers, So they're gonna be fine based off the fact that they have a Superstars twenty three years old. But it's clear now two straight years in the Western Conference finals, they've got to find whatever is
next to get them to that next level. And the problem is the next level, at least for now and probably for the next three or four years, will reside in Okac.
But what's the off season look like for Minnesota?
They also have to make a decision about Tim Conley, right, I think he's a free.
Agent, right, con you know, and speaking to you know, people with knowledge of the new ownership structure, they're big fans in Mark Lauria and Alex Rodriguez are big fans of Tim Conley. So I believe there's a ton of motivation to get an extension done there now. Of course, though, because he's proven himself in Denbury and Minnesota, like, there could be some godfather off or somewhere else like you got to always keep that in mind, but I think
the intention would be to keep Conley there. The biggest thing that the Wolves can do in terms of getting better for next year is it's really of course, got to take care of Nazrita to v opts out Joyce Ryannol. If he opts out, I don't think Nikhil Alexander Walker
will be extended by them. I think he's going to be the guys that they're going to have to see walk and then hope they can replace his production with Terrence Channon Junior and Rob Dillingham and Jalen Clark who you know, Terrence Shang Junior at thirty five points of the last three five games of the Western Conference Finals have to really not play in all playoffs long and you know, Chris Finch after Game five admitted.
That it's on him.
He needs to lengthen this bench with some of his younger guys. It's those will be the guys that fill the Alexander Walker spot. But really, I think the biggest room for improvement here is will be ankeetting to the level which we all assume he will. But then Jade McDaniels and mcdaniald's so much better than it was a year ago, but still there's a big gap between him and say Jaylen Williams, who's the second best player for
Okay see and you saw that in the series. You know, in game five, Jane McDaniels goes oh for six to start the game and they're down twenty before there's a blink of an eye, and yeah, give him credit for you know, looking to see open scoring opportunities and taking them that they need a guy to do that, but then you obviously have to convert. So I think they were a team that were treading water a lot of
the year. They had some injuries, they were an awkward fit, trying to make Julius work, trying to make don to di vitenso comfortable going away from obviously the system they had had with Kat and Ant being the two pillars for them for three straight years. There's still a lot of encouragement there. I think the part that's concerning is that, like they are still in a super crowded Western Conference, And this is what Finch said after the game game five.
He says, like forty two and forty might be a good year for a team in the West next year. And then you're talking about an uphill battle again in the playoff where you don't have one port advantage, and when you got to go in and play a place like ok See, where it's a madhouse, it's gonna be tough win a series that way.
Is there hurt your feelings that you're not on the Hoop Collective.
I mean, I think it probably saves my sanity from having to listen to Tim and Tim every day. But yeah, it's a good group. I would like to be about a little bit more. I'll go out to the live show in Vegas. They had me on stage for it a couple of years ago, so we'll see if I gets to call up for that. But it's kind of see. The thing about it is none of those guys actually cover a team that everybody cares about on a daily
basically the Lakers. So my time is better spent, you know, dealing with Luca and Lebron and the Lakers most of the time than carving out an hour and a half to hear those guys talk about the same issues over and over again. But they do do a great job.
Hey, hey, Porter, I want you to clip that answer, except the final part when you said they do a great job and it's a good time to nine folks that Tim McMahon covers the jazz.
All right.
You know you've mentioned Finch's postgame press conference.
Did I hear him right when he said there are thirteen teams in the West that will be jockeying for home court.
Did he say thirteen?
Is that right?
Yeah, you did say thirteen, so that maybe a bit of an overextension, but I mean it's not it's not absurd.
Well, it also clearly excludes two teams. One probably resides here in Salt Lake.
Is that fair to say?
I think that's fair to say. Yes, But I think no one in your city you formed listeners having paid tens Tor show, would be shocked by that.
Isaiah Callier broke John Stockton's rookie assist record, Dave, I don't know if you read that.
I actually didn't know that. I'm glad that you shared that information with it.
John Stockton also average fourteen minutes a game as a rookie because the starting point Carver's rookie green. Anyway, moving on, does Lowry Marketing start for Oklahoma City?
He does not, Dave, Yeah, I don't. I don't think. I don't think he does. Yeah, I don't think he does.
What does that say about your team when your best player would not even start for the team that's in the finals.
M I mean, it's a it's a really good question to Brazil. I think there's a certain style that Okay See plays that you know, lou dort Is, they would decide to go with a guy who's limited offensively because he's such a beast defensively in that position. Market is a very good player. I mean, so I think it's a little unfair to wedge that conversation in because I think he could start, for say, the Knicks, like he could start over Josh Hart.
That's you know what, we're hanging the banner. Our best player would start over Josh Art. We're gonna we're gonna hang that here in sall like, okay, before we'll end with Nick Spacers. But before we get there, let me ask you a question without the sarcasm laced in it. There are now, as a result of the way that the CBA is structured, several avenues as far as how you can build a contending team. It's no longer was Lebron born in your city? Or does he want to
live in South Beach? And certainly with Luke and Lebron and other you know, Golden State grabs Jimmy Butler, there always will be those teams that can grab the star to put next to other players. But ultimately, when you look at Indiana, when you look at Oklahoma City. Even the way the Knicks did it. The Knicks did it slowly, you know it really Jalen, of course turned out to be a great decision. How do the Jazz take advantage
of this parody era in the NBA? And the CBA expires in twenty thirty so, and I don't know if they are going to be massive changes. I think a lot of people don't love how punitive some of the second apron stuff seems to be for owners having the right.
Checks, just for the right to have the roster.
So if we say that the Jazz have at least five years in this new ecosystem of pro basketball, how do they do it?
Dave?
Because it's hard to draw a straight line between who the Jazz are now and who Oklahoma City is now, even though Oklahoma City not too long ago was in this rebuilding space.
Presty has just knocked it out of the park.
Like they drafted the right guys, they were able to receive their generational piece in exchange for Paul George, and they found guys off the scrap peep they weren't even drafted. It's hard to say, do a Presty because he's done it so brilliantly, But we are a basketball market star for a decent team. How did Danny and jay Z get this done?
So it starts with you gotta draft well, and when you're in the position where you're in the lottery for you know, three out of five years, whatever it will end up being.
For the Jazz.
Like if you get even one of those guys wrong, like you're putting yourself beyond a ball. Then you gotta look at the Pacers identifying Tyree Calliburton as someone who was underutilized and turning him into a guy. They did it through a tray. The next same way with Gelen Bruns, that is, through free agency, identified a guy who was underutilized and took him to another level. I think the Jazz kind of tried to do that with a guy like Colin Sexton, and probably they unleashed a slightly higher
levels than he showed in Cleveland. But he's not one of those two guys. But you guys to continue to try to find a guy that fits that archetype. And then you need a system and a coach and a clarity of vision. And you know you and I are both think aligned and being will Hardy fans, So they got that part done. I think the jury is still
out on how they've done on the draft. You know, obviously there's probably a reason why so many people are calling about Walker Tesler, probably because that was a probably a pretty good pick. And so that's a guy you can build around. And hey, you just told me you got the guy breaking constacks this record, So maybe that's
another guy you can build around as well. I mean, Collier has built like a young Marcus Smart and if you can turn that body into a defensive engine, and I like kind of my inside outside pieces of built around. And then again you got to marketing. It was another guy that they identified. I just think the marketing kind of timeline won't fit with where they're at right now. So you're probably gonna have to commit to staying in this lottery mode.
For a bit.
Hit with some luck, you know, the ping bom balls got to go your way and get the right guy. And you know, like again, I know we were talking about the idea of this being you're already on the fast track with Cooper Flag, but you know it could be you're already on the fast track if you get to bits out of Boyu it's just a year delayed from what we thought. Maybe it would be.
All right, before I set you loose, let's do a little Eastern Conference finals. And you know, if you were like on vacation overseas and did not watch the first four games of Nick Pacers and came home last night, like I'm gonna watch in basketball, you'd be like, why is this close? I mean, it was a mismatch, and it really was Dave from my vantage point. And it's ironic here because Tom is such a defensive minded guy. But this is not Oak and Mace and Ewing and
Anthony Bonner, if we want to go deep. This is not like a big, physical, defensive, dominant basketball team. I think they were thirteenth in defensive rating this year, and
they were close to top five in offense. I'm not sure if they finished top five in offense, but it's pretty clear after last night because it was the first game that they were actually closing out in respect to the Pacers, like guard Aaron Nee Smith game one, don't give Tyree Salibert and a bunch of airspace in game three, like actually play defense, you know, And last night was a concerted defensive effort for the thirty two four minutes, it was competitive before kind of things got loose in
the fourth. Can they replicate that in game I guess it would be Game six now in Indianapolis, because you know what, man like I am to the point with this series, I can see all three of the scenarios unfolding. I could see the Pacers winning on Saturday. I could see the next winning on Saturday and losing Game seven.
I could see the next winning Saturday and winning Game seven. Like, all three of those things still are on the table, But the Knicks are gonna have to guard last night in a way that they haven't yet.
Can they replicate that performance for two more games?
Primarily I completely rearview all three of those things around the table the Knicks. You know with the Ananob's that they have Robinson Really for a guy who came in with an offensive reputation as completely sacrificed that point of the game to give his energy and attention towards defense this series, it's been really impressive to me. And then you got some of like Karl Anthony Towns who seen committed more than we normally see him committed to attacking
the paint. And then I think that aggression offensively is carrying over to what he brings defensively. Now he's not you know, pick your Gionnaskupo down there, but he's bringing some of that level to it. I think it will come down to you know, Tyres Alibert quite frankly. I mean, Haliburton was invisible in game five and that's not the
way things are going to work for this team. And he doesn't score thirty two and have a you know, a near perfect offensive game with fifteen assistants zero turnovers like he did earlier in the series. But he's got to be a guy who's attacking the paint, breaking down the defense, kicking it out to those shooters.
So even when they the Knicks are.
Committed to closing out, they have already collapsed on Haliburton. So it's a longer close out to get to Anie Smith or you know, get out to Mathurin, who you know is really starting to catch fire a little bit. So the Pacers should feel good about things right now. They are going home. They took their lumps, sure, but
now they have the human nature side. If I want to make up for what has happened, uh, And that's a place that gets rocking to the field House, which I don't well, I don't even know what they've called it. So many different things at field House, I don't feel confident saying is it games Bridge now Bridge? Yeah, they should feel good. At the same time, the Knicks are like, we see our pathway and so like it is a
toss up, it could be tossed up. I think it's beautiful that we get a Saturday night with what could be the best game of the playoffs thus far, and it's been a pretty damn good playoffs.
If Kenny Smith corners you in Bristol, do you think you can handle that?
I believe, I believe I can. I've seen his races to the big board with those knock knees. I'm not too worried about.
Yeah.
If he was gonna start something with me, I just run away.
Oh, Dave, you're such a good sport man. Have a good weekend. Takes for the time, Okay, Nick?
All right?
The Great Dave mcminnimon go Nicks for several different reasons, mainly so Dave and his lovely wife Malik Andrews do not have to work in Indianapolis or well, Oklahoma, city they're gonna have to go to no matter what. All Right, Dave stops by today, Courtzy of my friends at Prize Picks. Prize Picks is the best place to turn your sports knowledge into cash. With millions of members, Prize Picks has
made daily fantasy sports accessible to all. You just spick more or less on at least two players for a shot that went up to two thousand times for cash. You can run your game all season long on Prize Picks. Download the Prize Picks app today, used the promo code ESPN seven hundred and get fifty dollars in so after you play your first five dollars lineup, download the Prize
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Get to the five o'clock out of the program.
Coming up in a bit Brett Yormark, Commissioner the Big Twelve with some specific numbers as far as distribution to members to member schools. We'll tell you what the University of Utah took home last year. By you still not a full share member. Yet we'll get to some of that coming up in a bit. But you heard pit Bull, which means you're in a bad mood, but it also means it's time for Zach Harper on a Friday afternoon. Zach, Happy Friday, buddy, How are we doing?
Happy Friday?
You cannot possibly be mad at Timber though. That's a banger.
Now we've been over it.
Man, there are no bangers, O Tapper, Now, there are no bangers. There are no toe tappers. He's horrible, But you know it's part of the bit, and I can't quit a good bit.
That's how I rolled.
It was good enough for the NBA playoffs like eleven years ago.
That's what ruined it for me watching pit Bull every night. No, no, no, that's okay, still making it worse. That's called your compounding the issue. Having to watch playoff basketball every night and here Pitbull playoffs.
Oh, it ruined it. It ruined it for me. Where are you are you in Los Angeles?
Yeah?
I'm in Los Angeles?
Yeah?
Okay.
So which media member will complain the most if they have to travel between Indianapolis and Oklahoma City?
No question, absolutely, Amino Hassen like that is a guarantee. That is a minus ten thousand at the books, if if it's even on the books.
Is he a big city snob? Is mean a big city snob?
Guy?
Absolutely like the biggest city snob there is.
Okay, Okay, I did see some Instagram video. He was mad at you for something on Instagram, wasn't he?
Yeah, I was out at dinner and he called me. Well, he was in Minneapolis because sometime last year he went to Minneapolis. He went to get a late night slice of cheese pizza because he just only eats cheese pizza. He went to the wrong place and then said that all of Minneapolis food is bad, even though it's got some of the best restaurants in the country. And I said, that's wrong. Plus, you went to the wrong pizza place. So then he called me to get me to give.
Him the right place. But I was at dinner, like I was, I was out with someone.
I'm I'm not going to answer the phone. That's crazy.
That's on him cheese pizza? What is he twelve?
Exactly?
That?
Okay, Okay, we love him and that's our guy.
I did not realize he was such a snob, all right, let's start out west. And you know, look, man, you and I have talked all year long, and Oklahoma City is eighty and eighteen. They're twenty nine and one against the East. Minnesota is good and they undressed them. I mean, is this is this just is this something that feels like it's been inevitable for a while and now we're just seeing the proof in front of us.
No, I don't think it's been inevitable. Like I think they've I think they've learned. I think that they've gotten better. I think they even they've learned in this season of dominance.
Like I mean, this wasn't something that was just definite, Like they went to game seven against against Denver, right like, this is something that was like they won handling game seven, but that wasn't something that was a definite and that was not a good Denver team, right Like that Denver team was not good, but they had the best player in the world, or they had.
The best player in the world.
So like there were still some things here and there that they needed to prove. But I think they've learned along the way. I think they've grown up in this in this playoff experience. And I think they're poised to
be whoever comes out of the East. But no, like I think that, you know, we always get into this thing of you know, as not you and me, but like as a as a collective talking head of like this, you know, oh everyone doubtedn't look and we never considered the idea of this actually progressively got better during the journey or during the campaign or whatever. And that's what I think happened. Like, yes, they were winning games in the regular season, so with Cleveland, look what happened.
Yeah, No, that's that's really fair. And certainly Shay has been Shay for a while now. It's it's it's the Jalen stuff that I think changes them because he's just so ready as their number two, you know what I mean.
Yeah, And he was bad against against Denver until Game seven. Yeah, Like he was really bad offensively. I should say he was great defensively, but he was really bad offensively. Couldn't hit a shot shot like thirty five or thirty seven percent in that series. And then he was a monster against Minnesota against good defenders like that. You're like, you're right, that Minnesota team's really good. And people overreacting that saying, oh, this is the same thing as last year. It's not
the same thing as last year. That's a good team that just got undressed by the best team. And I don't think there's any any shame in that. And Jalen Williams was, I mean man like. It seemed like anytime a player turned their head away from him, he stole the ball from them, Like, I don't like you look at the stat sheet for that series. I don't know how it doesn't say he is thirty steals. It seemed like he took the ball from everybody constantly.
Yeah, and you know, I'm gonna give our die Gordy chiasis and credit. During our draft and night coverage a couple of years ago, he brought up Case and Wallace quick. He's like, watch out for this kid. And you know what's wild, Zach When Dagnall sits Hartenstein Hardenstein and puts a chat at five and you've got Dort, Shay, Jalen and then either Caruso or Case and Wallace. Perimeter players
have no prayer, they have no shot. Like everybody wants to knock on ant, but when every one of your dribble handoff actions or pick and roll ball screen actions lead to you being handed off between Lou Dort and Alex Caruso and Shay.
You cannot you can't go with Shay.
I mean he's not Dort necessarily, and Jalen's legitimate like all NBA defensive type player as well. Like when they go with that, we used to call the Golden State line up the death lineup. You know, with Draymond of the center, it feels similar like there's no space for anybody on pimeter. So for all the heat Ant has been taking, to me, it's much more about who Okase is and has been than who Ant is currently.
Yeah, Ant could have played better, he could have done, but you look at like the video of what was what was there on the court for him?
I mean, where was he supposed to go?
There was no room, like there was nothing like, Okay, he could I guess space jamut and just jump over everybody from forty feet away. But I mean they they just schemed it really well and with the personnel that the Wolves had. I mean, if you think about this, Tim Connelly built that team to beat the Denver Nuggets and they did like it worked, and then a year later, here's the thunder that that's just at you know, at a historic place. And now they've got to figure out Okay,
now we got to retool this team. But yeah, like I thought Ant played well, he didn't play. He didn't you know, play to the best that you would want him to. Also, he's twenty three, Like what do we do here?
Like he's twenty three?
Like I just I think this is just the Internet being the Internet, and you got to find a way to kill a team instead of instead of just acknowledging like the best team.
One in a way that they probably should have won.
Well.
In some of the revisionist history stuff you hear with the coverts, it's like, well, Jordan would have found a way to take every shot. And it's like, no, Jordan actually never won until he decided he wanted to be a teammate, until he actually had good players around him. You know, I can one of my earliest basketball memories. This will age me, but watching Jordan score sixty three at Boston Garden on TV, like that was an insane performance.
Guess what happened? They lost to the Celtics.
Like the whole thing, like right right, like the whole thing about Aunt should do what Jordan did, and Jordan would just take every big shot. No, Like, Jordan started winning championships when he became a more willing teammate and became more of a willing defender. I thought aunt when he said after I think it was Game four, Like
I made all the right plays. Maybe not all of them, but more often than not, he was making the right It's like the way that we knock on some of these players that are generational just gets so exhausting.
Yeah, I mean, look, if you just break it down, I like, I completely agree with you, and you break it down. The Minnesota Timberwolves, the same Minnesota Timberwolves we've known for the last thirty plus years, were just in back to back Western Conference finals because of that guy. And he's twenty three years old. Like he's going he's
going to get better. You look at like him versus Shay, she's three and a half years older than him, Like shehase would be better than him, right, Like they're just you got to give give him time for growth. He has gotten to a certain level. He probably has another couple of levels he can get to. But I mean, man, like, he's made the Timberwolves relevant in a way that isn't a joke, And I just I don't think people remember all, like not all that long ago, like literally, like until two.
Years ago, this was one of the biggest jokes in sports history as a franchise.
All right, So, uh, before we to the potential matchup, let's move out east, and you know, we've had a couple of NBA guys on today, So I'm gonna ask you kind of a similar type question. I mean, like if you were on vacation and you came back and you hadn't had a chance to watch any of the Knicks Pacers series and you watched last night, you'd be like, how is it even close?
Now?
Ultimately, it was the first game, at least from my prism, that the Knicks actually tried to guard with intent and purpose on the perimeter, like for all the Nie Smith Game one stuff like those were walking practice shots. Do respect to Nie Smith. He knocked him down, but he was not under a lot of pressure. Halliburton was awesome last game, but he had so much space, and the Knicks this game made a very concerted effort to make sure Halliburton could not get off early and they actually
did close out on shooters. So We can talk Cat, we can talk Jalen, but those guys score no matter what. It's the defense that's been the issue. Can the Knicks keep it up as far as what you saw them, you know, be able to do last night defensively with concerted effort.
Yeah, I mean, I think the concern I have is that, look, everything looks a lot better at home, right, And I get it, like they lost the first two games at home, but with your back against the wall, Game five, down three to one, you know, home teams are I think what was the stat I saw from the ringer was like home teams down three to one in game five or like thirty two and twelve or something like that, right,
Like they usually win those games. And there was a point like I don't want to take away from what the Knicks did, So this is kind of a tough statement, but there was a point where I wonder, I was, like the Pacers really come out there thinking like we're gonna win this game? Or do they? Or was it that classic like all right, we'll see, Oh the Knicks really want to play tonight. Well, we got game six on Saturday at home. You know, like I couldn't really
tell what their what their focus level was. And so I do think the Knicks had a great game plan. I think they maybe can replicate that game plan defensively, but I also expect Rick Carlisle to make adjustments. It's it is a novel idea to not just allow the
opposing team to walk into the jumpers like it. I mean, there was a moment in game four when Haliburton's having that transcendent game where Jalen Brunson like just walked away from him and he and he just like Halibert just stepped into a twenty five foot three pointer and like, we know he can hit that, and he knocked it down cold, and I like, you just you can't give these guys space, Like the NBA players are too good at shooting at this point, you can't.
You can't give them space.
I didn't think that the Pacers had the same, you know, the same relentlessness offensively of getting into the paint. Maybe some of that was the defense, Maybe some of that was apathy, Maybe some of that was just you know, I will get him on Saturday. I don't really know how to how to judge that from an outside looking in, but the you know, the Knicks did what they need
to do. I just I don't know if they can easily get that same kind of result, not even just from a score standpoint, but from just a defensive execution standpoint when they're on the road Saturday.
Yeah, and you know, the good news is now we know that Tom Thibodau does watch tape and it was like, oh, campaign isn't very good at this, So you know, like, thank goodness that those minutes are going to Delon, who can at least guard now offensively. It's a little weird because Delon was a ute and he was a really good, like ball in hand offensive initiator. It doesn't look very confident with the ball in his hand on offense, but he has given them good defensive minutes. Landry Shammit's played
pretty well and at least he's trying. But the problem is Rick has been playing eleven players all year and Tom's just starting to do it now.
But what are your.
Thoughts on Tom Thibodau at least actually trying to extend minutes to the bench so his starters don't die in the fourth.
I mean, there's there's a moment in the movie Face Off where John Travolta, who's actually Nicholas Cage. You know, they're surprised at what his character is doing, and he goes, well, you know what they say in all SLS fresh tactics like that seems to be Tom Sibodol. I think someone is actually a different person inside of his inside of his body right now. I don't think it's actually him. I don't think Landry Shammitt is the answer.
I don't like.
I don't think that's gonna go well in game six. I do like Duce McBride. I think he's I think he's kind of fearless. I think he's a good a good bench option. I love Delan right off the bench, like he's just solid right, he's gonna guard, he's gonna run the offense. He's not much of a scorer, but I just I think he's I think he's much a much better option than than Campaign. I, you know, would maybe throw a show out there a little bit and
just see if him give you five minutes. But they don't need a lot, right, They don't need a lot with these bench guys. They just need a little bit of competency and just so didn't get their guys a little bit extra rest. But with the way you know Indiana is going to turn up the tempo on on Saturday tomorrow. I just meant like Stibbo's gotta get into it. He's got to get into his bench a little bit more.
So, what's the lean. I've said this earlier, and this is how I truly feel. Any of the three scenarios left I can actually see happening. I can see Indiana winning Saturday. I can see the Knicks winning Saturday and then losing Game seven. And I could even see the next winning Saturday and winning Game seven. I really don't have a lean. Every time I feel like I have a pulse on how this is gonna go, I'm proven wrong.
Are you leaning one way or the other?
Yeah?
I do think Indiana closes out. I think they've proven to be a more focused team in terms of knowing what their identity is and knowing what they should do. And it's not a knock on the Knicks. I just think the Knicks have gotten sucked into like what Indiana wants to do the next of a couple of games in the series. You know, we saw it at the end of regulation in Game one, where they got tricked
into running with Indiana instead of slowing things down. We saw it in Game four for sure, where they were just running with Indiana for no reason. I'm just like, just slow it down, run some pick and roll, like, grind out some of these possessions. And the thing that bothers me about the Knicks offense, they're hitting shots like. You can look at their offensive numbers and they look
they look good. So it you know, you can look at the results and it's fine as much, you know, as Boogian will attest to right now, but you like you you look at that and you be like, oh, what's the problem. But doesn't that seem like every bucket they get a side, you know, game five aside one, Games one through four, every bucket they're just working so hard to get each basket and then on the other end,
Indiana is just getting easy buckets. Like That's the thing that worries me about the Knicks offense is they have to work so hard for every shot and that's just not the case for Indiana. And when you go on the road for Game six, it just can't be that for forty eight minutes.
If the Knicks lose on Saturday, you know, one of the wildest stats, and this is prior to last night, so I don't have it updated, But prior to last night, Jalen Bronson had one assist to Cat all series long. Yeah, like they don't play well together offensively. I mean you can get into some of the pick and roll stuff and Kat you know, comhoot it from three and Jalen such a bold and then sometimes when Jalen does have his has his head down all the time, like he's
so good at it, you let him do it. But at times it is at the expense of the other players offensively, which is why the plus minus stuff and gets so murky. So I mean, look, when you look at their books, the core kind of is in place unless they want to do something drastic. Maybe you look at the head coach. I don't know, I mean, Dolan'
such a wild card. If the Knicks lose tomorrow night, there's part of me that believes, because they beat Boston and nobody thought they would, they might be a little bit ahead of schedule because they were kind of built with the idea that Boston was gonna have to break it down this summer.
So there's part of me the beliefs.
Okay, you run it back your head of schedule, But then there's part of me that believes there's enough data indicates that maybe this group doesn't necessarily work to the point where you can win the thing. What's the offseason look like in New York if they lose on Saturday.
I mean, the thing is that the East, who knows, right, like Cleveland doesn't look ready, as we talked about before, Like Cleveland looks, you know, kind of mentally weak. Indiana is really good, Orlando and Detroit are coming, Milwaukee good luck with this whole situation, and who knows if they even you know, maybe they deal with Giannis and then that's that's out of the question. Boston, you know, Tatum's probably out for the year. Next year, you know, it
does leave them. It's just kind of like, well, it might just be you in Indiana next season, right to see who can win the East. Now that maybe someone comes along and surprise them, but it is.
Set up for them.
At the same time, it's James Dolan, like you're asking him to be competent and reasonable. And that's the thing I look at is like, you know, I had heard towards the end of the season. If Tom Ziboo, you know, if they don't get to the conference finals or or deeper, you know, he's gonna get fired. And I didn't know what to make of that. You know. Some of it was was people like, yeah, that's true, and somebody like, no, that's not true. That's that's dramatic. Right, So they get
to the Commons files, you think he's safe. Yeah, But if James Dolans seas and gets to the Commons Finals and then lose to a Pacers team that he doesn't think is good is as good as them, which is very possible. Now, and you know this is me guessing, but I'm trying to put my brain in, you know, with James Dolans right now, Like, would it shock you if he if he used that against Tom? Finlin just said, all right enough enough, let me go get me Michael Malone.
He's from New York. You know, he's repped by CIA. That works for me. Like, I just think that all this stuff, like you can't predict that. Now, if they do keep them, and they do look at this and say, hey, we're right there, then you're trying to you know, use all of this momentum and the openness of the East and everything and the gliss and glamour of New York and being a Nick and all that to hopefully bring
in some bargains. You know, you've got some relief with the contract extension that Jalen Brunson's signe like, there are some ways to hopefully still out the roster. But then you got to hope that you know, Tom plays them next year.
I don't know.
I don't know, Like I think that's another conversation between Tom Tibodeau in the front office that he may be sick of having.
At this point, do either of the Knicks or the Pacers even make it interesting in the NBA Finals?
I think Indiana can. I think that their style of play, the way that they don't really turn the ball over of I mean Game five aside, they turned the ball over Ton last night, but you know, they don't really turn the ball over there there. They've got an interesting style, They're deep, Halliburton's amazing. I think that they can make it interesting. I think they can maybe even push it to six. Everything breaks right, but man, I mean the thunder just they're gonna they're gonna beat.
Both these teams.
Does lowry marketing start for okac Oh. He doesn't.
That's gonna be tough if he's on the Kings.
I don't know why. I feel like you're gonna be on the Kings. Just feels like the King's Kings situation.
He doesn't start for them is when it comes.
Down, he would know, he would you know, do you start for them? Yeah?
All right, before I say you lose, we will do just a little jazz because you were doing radio in Salt Lake City, you do a lot of draft stuff. Just curious best case scenario at five in your opinion for the Jazz to walk away from in the draft come up in a few weeks.
I think Tredy Johnson. I think if Trade Johnson falls to five, that's that's huge. Like he's a monster scorer, he's a really good guard. I think he's you know, he has some things that that you need to iron out with him, but he just doesn't like he doesn't turn the ball over. He can really shoot, he can really score. He's a good free throw shooter. Like I, you know, you need to change some things with shot
selection and everything. But I just think that I that's a guy that could average twenty five twenty seven points a game at his peak. Like I just I think he's a He's a monster, and there's a certain point where you just you need guys who can go efficiently get buckets, and I think he's gonna be that. Anyone else there, I don't know that it's a it's a real good fit for them. Maybe if Edgecombe fell to five, that could be fun. I do think he has good potential.
Tho I'm not completely sold. If Ace Bailey fell, all right, if you believe in your development, that could be good. I've talked to some people that aren't as low on him, even after last season, but I think Trey Johnson is the guy.
So Chris Finch and we'll set you loose after this.
Chris Finch after the Minnesota loss said something that made my ears per cup. He said there are thirteen teams in the West next year that will be fighting for home court. I'm like, oh, all right, well, I guess the secrets out. Everybody knows clearly he left out the Jazz and probably the Blazers would be my guest.
Those are the other two teams.
And then you add on to the fact Zach that they have a top eight protected pick that goes to you guessed it, Oklahoma City next year. All of the signs are pointing to just another atrocious season where they're unserious about competition.
Yeah, oh yeah, for sure. I mean, and you know, there's some really good players at the top of next year's drafts. So you play the game again, you roll the dice, you go back to the crafts table, and you just you hope that you hope that you got it. You get a long roll and you make some money. Like that's what it is, right, Like that's it's not
just we did it for one draft. We you know, and it works like it is part of trust, the process and all that stuff, Like you got to do it for a couple of these when when it's worth it. So it was bad that they didn't do it for Wemby. It was fine that they didn't do it for you know, the Alex Sar draft, and you know, they tried it for this draft and it didn't work out. But there's some talent at the top of next year's draft that
is worth doing it again. After that, man, you got to show some progress, especially if you're not really discounting these tickets, which I'm sure is not part of the business plan.
It very much is not. All right, Zach, appreciate the time.
Man, have a good weekend, all right, yelling timber buddy.
Okay, Zach Harper from the Athletic I always appreciate his time. You can follow him on social media at talk Hoops is where you find him. All right, happen up the program, Final segment of the day, Final segment of the week. We've had a really fun week, short week. We had Monday off from Memorial Day. Hopefully you did two. Happy Friday to you, Happy weekend to you. Good job gang, you did it, showed up every day this week, did the.
Things You've earned. Some time off. Should be a beautiful, warm weekend.
So get elevated, pike, bike, golf, whatever you do, walk the dog, enjoy the fact that we have this beautiful playground at our disposal, living in Salt Lake.
So there we go, Hi Porter, how are you?
We have not really even discussed much of anything with you all day as a result of our technical difficulties.
Our hair was kind of on fire today. It happens.
It happened. Sometimes I just press the buttons and that's okay.
Well, you're very good at that. Sometimes you're a lead at it quite frankly to switch the butcher.
Sometimes they switch the buttons.
Up on me though.
Well when that happens, we all lose when that happens, as we've learned on the show. But I think we're used to the new system after you know, some rough days, becoming accustomed to it.
I think that's fair to say.
I think so, I think so. And yeah, here's the deal. When you do live radio, there's always something something that could come up. You could do everything right and a mouse could chew through a court or something. So that's that's how it would be. We still did some sports radio. Hey, we may have had the best NBA guest lineup in the country.
Today, So look, you know, not to brag, but there are very few radio shows anywhere that would have Howard Beck, Tony Jones, Dave mcmannimon, and Zach Harper on it on the same day.
Am Paul Polkmyer.
Shout out to Pugs, but that was a golf guest today. But we love our die. Paul.
Give me a hot take on what you saw last night. Like again, I will lean into one thing you finally guarded. Yeah, for all of this stuff about Nie Smith Game one, Halliburton triple double, Lake, too much space on the perimeter, and the Knicks actually took a little bit of that away last night.
Yeah, I mean it was a I think a solid performance for the Knicks for the first time this series, even the games spends that they won. I just I didn't feel like they put together a great forty eight minut You mentioned it. I've talked about it a lot through the series. The Karl Anthony Towns forgetting he's playing for a minute, the Ananobee, who is a great defender kind of just forgetting he's on defense for moments during
the series. Jalen Brunson has been more sloppy with the ball in hand than I can remember him being at any time during even the regular season.
Like that.
There has been like a more las II fair look to the Knicks during the Eastern Conference Finals than I ever thought I would have seen. But last night they flipped the script. They changed that. They looked sharp, and that's the only way they're gonna win. There's not the because of what you did in the first couple of games, especially because of what you did in Game one. There's no more cushion for air, there's no more room for error.
You got to put forty eight minutes together, and then you got to do it again in game seven.
Well, and you know, growing up you played basketball, and I'm sure I certainly did. When you played rec ball or junior jazz ball. Growing up, there was always a player too on your team that their parents forced them to play basketball.
They want them to make friends.
And so there's always a couple of guys on your team that just don't know how to play. And sometimes Josh Hart makes passes that reminds me of my friend Taylor.
Shout out Taylor, who.
Was like forced to play on our team but didn't know how to play and would like throw it to the other team. I love Josh Hart, but some of his decision making is so stupid and like mind numbing.
Take care of the ball, man.
I come from a small town, so it was like a lot of the guys were just like farm boys.
Who name one you know, no, I know one is coming to mind.
I'll actually say this because he's he wouldn't be offended by it. But my buddy Porter Hancock, who's we share that we share the first name. Obviously, when we were young. He played basketball just to like work out, just to be there, and we would be like, hey, go foule that guy, Go foul this guy.
Yeah, that was his role.
And living in Farmville, there's plenty of wrestlers. There's plenty of those types of guys that end up playing basketball with you. And yeah, Josh Hart because he is like
such an energizer. A you see an offensive rebound, like a high bounce offensive rebound, and Josh Hart is going to like put his body on the line, right, And I love that about him, but it makes him play at a speed sometimes that he gets out in front of his skis is the term you use here, right, His action is operating a little quicker than the basketball IQ. And that's to give a take you have with players like that.
Yeah, and I love Josh Hart, But between Josh's my numbing passes in Cats like brain farts on defense where I'm just gonna grab a guy and commit a foul.
You already have four fouls, dude, we need you on the floor.
Those two dynamics of the Knicks are driving me bonkers right now.
Yeah, that one really when Kat just reached out and grabbed like we were he's holding in football. I don't even know what to do with those, but that dynamic and then I know, Tibbs always just makes me a little weary when it comes to the lineup stuff, and that's kind of been the entire mo of this postseason.
Yeah, no doubt.
All right, Porter, on Monday, are we previewing a Game seven? Or are we previewing the NBA Finals? I think we're previewing a Game seven. Okay, I think I like it. I hope, I hope too. Yeah, the game seven's rule. It's not just because the NIXT stuff. I also just would love to see Game seven in the conference finals. All right, let's get our weekend started. Porter, what comes our way in a Monday edition of the program.
Well, hopefully we'll also be recapping three points from RSL.
Indeed, probably not, but hopefully.
Hopefully recapping or looking ahead to a Game seven with Tom Haberstrow, Richard Smithy Smith in studio for an entire hour, and then our monthly ish catch up, a little offseason chat, maybe a little soccer with one Kyle Bonegura of ESPN.
All Right, there we go.
That'll be a fun Monday show. And with that we'll say goodnight for a Friday edition of the program. Special thank you today to Tony Jones, Howard Beck, Paul Pogmyer, Dave Mcmanhamon and Zach Harper. That's a lot of good stuff. If you missed any of it, go to the website. It's ESPN seven hundred Sports dot com. Take us on the go by downloading our mobile app. ESPN seven hundred app is available in the App Store at the Google
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It's available wherever you gets your shows. Subscribe, rate, review, say nice things in the comments, and give us all the stars. It helps support I'm Spence saying, and I Begod yourself, Begin to each other. Have a great weekend, and we'll talk to you on a Monday edition of the Drive right here on ESPN seven hundred ninety two and ifm We are proud to be part of Utah's ESPN Radio Network.