All right, Briday's show rolled along here in downtown Salt Lake City, Utah. Our next guest, I like to call him a friend, but a mentor. First and foremost best known I don't know these days Chris Russo, Mad Dog, of course, mister Russo best known for me with Mike and the Mad Dog. My question out of the gates these days, what do you get recognized for the most first take?
Okay, no question about it's ben So the first take. You know, if I'm in New York, little Mike and the Mad Dog too, because you just said as a nineteen year show. But as far as the overall thing, if I'm bouncing around a little first take, that would be the one. In the power of television see today, that would definitely be the one. Serious is a little different because it's you know, sort of a it's a
little nichey. So ifro am mass standpoint, now everybody kind of puts everything together right away, takes them a minute or two. The riders, oh yeah, that's the guy Mike and the Mad Doorgs saw me plenty of times. It's different, And of course the first take you on here constantly, so those the first take one is by far the best.
Okay, yeah, that makes sense, and I certainly tune in when you're on that show, and I'm glad you brought that up. And I should lead with thank you so much for your time. You're very kind of do this. It's been too long. Every time I watch you on First Take, I have this thought like, is it is it different or is it similar to the way you and Mike approach the show back in the day, Because a lot of people don't necessarily remember, in my opinion, you guys were the origin of what the modern day
debate shows have become. So this is not a new thing for you. Is doing First Take different or is it similar to what you did with Mike and the Mad Dog back in the day.
No, it's similar. It's you know, it's a little bit more specific on a topic. It's not as you know, the Mike and the Mad Dog thing would do anything. It's it's a little bit more NBA NFL dominated. But and you got more than just two people in there, because it's very rarely just Steve and I. You know, sometimes it's you know, it could be football season, you got two or three different guys in their basketball season, you got two three different guys in there, so it's
it's very rarely just as two of us. It's more of a trilogy per se. So from that standpoint it is a little different, but the from that, from the amount of people. But I mean the idea is the same. The idea is to move the needle. The idea is to give obviously your opponent a chance to talk. Your idea is to you know, give your opinion and hopefully it's organic enough and hopefully it's a situation where it's spurs debate, and hopefully it's opposite with your opponent. In
this case, Steve passed. In other words, I might have one opinion and if it really works properly, it would be nice if Steve had the other opinion and Mike and I the same scenario too. So I think there's you know, listen, debate shows on TV came from duet shows on radio, so it's the same theme. There are some intricacies that are a little different. You want to talk a little quicker on TV, you want to be eating out a little quicker. Radio is a little bit
more of a filipbuster element to it. But I mean, the same idea holds both ways. Same idea holds both ways.
Chris Russo, sorry, you're good and finish good and finish dog.
No, just have an opinion. I think that's the most important thing, to go out there and have an opinion and be you know, part of being good on radio or TV is being a salesman. You want to be able to sell your opinion even if you think or even if people don't think it's right. You want to make a good case for it. And for the most part, you try to do that a little more so on TV than you do on radio, but you're trying to make a good case for it.
For sure. Chris Russo, better known as the Mad Dog, as our guests here on ESPN seven hundred out of a Friday afternoon. You know, mister Russo, I'm gonna call you that all interview long. Probably you were one of the first people I thought about when the news came down that the New York Knicks had fired Tom Thibodeau. And it just has been so long since they've been
relevant at all. And you know, for playoffs appearance in five years, back to back fifty win seasons for the first time since ninety four to ninety five, first Eastern Conference appearance since two thousand and It's been so fun for me to watch this team rise to relevance again and reconnect with a lot of my friends that I grew up with back east in southern Connecticut, in the surrounding area. And no part of me thought that he
was in danger of losing his job. And I will allow and concede that I think he was probably up coach in the Eastern Conference Finals by one of the best coaches in pro basketball who's now in the NBA Finals. That we'll get to the finals in a moment. But what was your reaction when you heard the news that Tom had lost his job? And now that it's been a few days, why do you think it happened and who do you think was behind the decision?
Well, I listen, I never trust the owner, so I was you know, you never know of him, that's of course, Jim Dolan, you know, But I'm with you. After they beat Detroit, you figured they'd be in good shape. He would have actually been better off if they lost at Game seven to Boston in a classic series. Tatan doesn't get hurt. Then beating this Celtics wedding, everybody's appetite and then losing to Indiana the whole series and maybe this
next one will be that way as well. With okay, see, but the whole series obviously turned on the whole situation with the with the with Game one with the fourteen point lead, and the Natesmith making all those threes there and the you know in the last thirty to fifty eight seconds of that game, and then of course the two misdepos and the shot that Halburton took that bounced high and went in and then overtime. The whole series
changed with that. If the Knicks had won that game, they would have been a minimum seventh game, and I think they would have probably won the series because I don't know if they would have lost the back to back Game seven at home. So but once he beat the Pistons, I thought he was okay. Once he beat the Celtics, whoever thought he'd be And remember the Tatum injury had nothing to do with it, because you're up to be one when he got hurt. Once they beat Boston,
I thought that he was in great shape. I thought they beat Indiana. I thought it'd be a very close series. I wouldn't stake my life on it. But I thought that they would not lose back to back game sevens at home to the Pacers, so I thought they'd win that series. But you know, listen, I think it's a it's a group thing. First off, Dolan, nobody makes a decision regarding the next of the Rangers of the head
coach without going through Dolan. First, he's he got to write a check for thirty million dollars and because you got to pay him off, and you know, you can make the argument that Dolan made this form more than anybody else. A lot of people tell me that worldwide rests who what?
Who the hell is?
See? Who knows? He's sort of an influencer. Brought Kenny Payne to Louisville, had that workout. A lot of people think he had something to do with it, because it was no secret that he and Thibodeau couldn't stand each other. And then he had Leon Rose, who, you know, Listens, got a lot on the line here. You know, made a band Fay with Bridges, but he was the former agent for Thibodeaux. You know, I me know, maybe he has I don't.
It's really kind of hard to figure why.
First off, it's a stupid decision, and Leon Rose made good decisions. Dolan has stayed out of it for the most part. It appears in the last couple of years, so why would he get involved now? And Worldwide Message Worldwide WES is not really in that decisive decision making scenarios, so it is tricky to pin it on anybody but
his it. I would say if Jim Dolan wanted Tom Thibodeau to be his head coach, he would have told Rose and Worldwide West guys, nice guys, just as you said Spence back to back, Eastern back to back fifty one years, I mean Eastern Conference final. I mean there's only two teams in the NBA who had better years than we did when I fired him, And he did
not say that. So he's culpable too. And I think the fact that the Knicks are going to try to convince somehow, some way Jason Kidd in Dallas to come to New York tells you that they don't really have a plan B. I mean their number one guy to replace Thibodeaux is an existing head coach you signed to a big contract. I mean that's their number one guy. That's a little lot. Who's gonna coach Cooper Flagg and you're gonna have to give him compensation to get him?
That is a little lot. So the next look terrible. Here they did a bad job. The whole world knows it was stupid. Thibodeau's did a hell of a job, all right. You want to say Carl out was a little better, all right, Well, then he was also better than Atkinson. He was also better than Doc Rivers, and now he might be better than duk No, so let's keep that in mind too. But nobody in New York can quite figure it out. Everybody realizes this is a decision that was kind of difficult to stomach. So I
feel bad for Tibo. He's a out of a coach. Or see if he runs out of it again down the road. And I heard he's very down on what happened here. I think he was definitely surprised. I don't think he saw this coming, and do than anybody else. By the way, here in New York City, it's.
Almost like, don't look a gift horse in the mouth like this for the first time, mister Rousseau. The Knicks seemed to have played the long game and built up a team that had something to say about things in the Eastern common fence for a while, if they just allowed this process to continue, and what essentially made them more or less irrelevant in the landscape of pro basketball for nearly two decades, if not a little more, was impulsive emotional decision making from an owner that doesn't know
as elbow from as you know what. And I thought, to your point, go build your sphere, go play your kazoo, go be in your band, stay out of it, let the grown ups run the team. And this, to me is a couple of steps in the wrong direction, and it just reeks of Isaiah Thomas, Mike D'Antoni, Derek Fisher, Kurt Rambus, Jeff horniseack like and all of those people are solid guys, and some are good coaches, and Mike Woodson did a good job for a minute there in
New York. But it's almost like they reverted back to the emotional decision making that made them irrelevant for two decades after you finally built something up. And we'll see what happens moving forward, because the roster is still solid and they have a lot of good players, but these types of decisions are exac exactly why they were basically irrelevant for nearly twenty five years, you.
Know, hundred percent. And I actually think Indiana was better than the Knicks a player for player. I think the Knicks may have had, you know, the with Brunson in Towns, you can say they had the two of the three best players. But I think if you look at the whole Lobster bench, of course included Oltherough and the Indiana's a little better. But yeah, this is a very puzzling decision. And Leon Rose doesn't make a lot of bad ones, so that he hasn't at least and he hasn't been impetuous,
as you just said. So that makes me think that somebody must have told him here something was going on, because he hasn't made these bad decisions with his coaches. He hired the right guy and then a coach for five years and they were successful. So all of a sudden Leon gets over it. I mean, it is a little shan he's his former agent. It is very strange. I do know that that Thibodeau and Worldwide West did
not like each other. Worldwide West has done nothing in his career, no rings, He hasn't won any college championships. He's never built a team, so the fact that but he's you know, he works for Rose, so you wouldn't think he'd go over Rose. His head go right to Dolan. So that's why it's very puzzling. It's a very very strange decision. Nobody here can quite figure it out. You know, where they go now for a head coach? I mean again, you know, I don't think they want Mike Brown. I
don't think they want Mike Malone. You know, I thought maybe Billy Donovan because he would be maybe easier to get. We'll see what kid they though. They're not getting a Houston coach. You know, why would Dallas allow the Knicks to have kid without compensation?
Nicks have no theft picks.
To give them. Now, why would kid want to leave Dallas anyway? I mean, they got Cooper Flanner coming there for crying out loud. He got to be seventeen years old. I mean, the guy might be an old timer, so why would you leave coaching him? I know the Eastern Conference is a little easier at least next year, but why would you leave that to come and work for Dolan? I would never do it. So we'll see where they go. But everybody puzzled and it was a decision that reverberates it.
It makes the Knicks look bad. Just as you said, they haven't made a lot of bad decisions in here.
They made a bad hundred percent right one.
More thing here. And I do want to talk NBA Finals with you, mad dog, before I set you loose, because I do think you know the messaging as far as the statement goes. And then other sources that have leaked information across the landscape of the past few days is well, we want to take the next step. We want to win a championship. I could make the argument that this Nick team was ahead of schedule by beating Boston.
I think I feel like they were put together with the idea of Boston maybe having one or two more years and then they're going to have to break their roster down because the new ownership group probably doesn't want to ride a luxury tax check of five hundred million dollars just to have the team, And so when the Celtics are broken down that I felt like this Nick team was ready to take that step. So I really think Tom actually brought them ahead of schedule this year,
going to the Eastern Conference Finals. But I think if they want to win a championship, they have a roster construction issue they have to figure out, and I think it comes down to Cat. Now, Kat just played some of the best basketball that I've ever seen him play in the spring, Okay, so I want to give him credit for that. But defensively, I mean, we talk a lot about Nie Smith making his threes in Game one.
Those were walking practice threes with not a lot of defensive pushback, and more often than not, the only time I thought the Knicks had a chance in the series is when they were actually guarding. Now, this is not a team in the ILK of nineteen ninety five. Charles Oakley's not walking through that door, et cetera, et cetera. But I think if they want to take the next step, they've got a roster issue, and I think it comes
down to Cat. Do you think they look at a deal for a Durant or a deal for a Gyiannis? I mean, even Lowry markin out here in Salt Lake is available. I'm not saying that makes sense, But if they want to take the next step, it doesn't matter if their coaches. Tom Thibodeau Jason Kidd whoever. I think they have a roster construction issue. Do you think they adjustin pivot with their personnel this offseason?
Well, I don't think Giannis is coming here, so that's number one. I think if the Bucks, the Bucks won't call Anthony Towns. I mean, I wouldn't want call Anthony Towns to build my franchise around. That is not what I would want. So from that standpoint, I think if he goes anywhere, it might be the Spurs so or Toronto. So I'm not in love with getting that. And you're right, the roster is where it is. I don't know exactly what they could. They have no draft picks based on
that Bridger's trade. They only got a five I don't pay too much attention to this capologist nonsense, but they only got a five and a half million dollar mid level exception. And the other thing you got to remember with the Knicks, what would they bring in here? Bring ever they bring in here? Next year they gonna want to They're gonna get to the finals. I mean, you can't bring somebody Eier to lose in the conference final. What's the point of doing that? And next year the
East is going to be very easy. And so as a result, if you somehow don't get to the final next year you did, I mean, the Celtics don't have Tatum Lillard's not playing for Milwaukee and Beide, who knows, uh, you know, you got clear. We'll see how they respond. And he got Indiana. I mean there's nobody else EA stinks. So that puts an awful lot of pressure on a coach coming in here knowing that he'd better get to an NBA final if he doesn't want to hear from
the fans. So, I mean, I think they're in a little bit of a tough spot. I completely agree, and I think they put more pressure on themselves with this decision, which I think is it puts It's gonna make everybody say, well, now you fire Thibodeaux. And he even gets to the final, I'll come the next guy loses in the second round, how does he stead? So I think that plays into two Remember before Thibodau, they had twelve coaches. I'm sorry, they won one playoff I think it was twelve. In
the last twenty five years, they've had twelve coaches. They won one playoff series. You know, Larry Brown and Derek Fisher and David Fizdale and you know, go on No.
No.
One playoff series with Thibodeau, they won five. So I mean, the next guy next year is gonna have to win three. I don't know what the knickt solution is. I think they're a good team. They're a tough team, but I don't think necessarily they are a championship team. And let's as we swing to Indiana quickly, that's remember this too. Maybe Indiana and losing to them is not gonna be
such a big deal. I mean, maybe they beat Oklahoma City, and maybe they beat Oklahoma some easier than they beat the Knicks after what we saw in Game one, where they continually do these miracle pullbacks and win these crazy games. And you know, I wasn't that impressed in Oklaoma City last night, who gave up, by the way, sixty something points in the second half and a lot of Indiana to shoot fifty two percent. So the idea that no, listen, Okay sequens to come back and win. But that was
an awful, awful loss. So who knows, Maybe Indiana wins the whole thing makes the Nick loss look a little better. So very issue. A lot of interesting issues with the nickobocracy here in New York, right, A lot of issues.
One question about our local basketball team as we find ourselves in unchartered territory, you know, in the Miller's forty year stewardship of the Utah Jazz. More or less every year, while we've never won a championship out here, we've always had really good teams, and the rebuilds have only taken one or two years. And they were able to bridge the gap between socked him alone to Darren Williamson Carlos Boozer, and then it was Gordon Hayward and then Donovan Mitchell
and Rudy Gobert. We're about to enter our fourth year of a rebuild after Ryan Smith bought the team from the Millers and Danny Ainge left the Celtics for the Jazz Austin as Danny Sun was just hired to run basketball operations. But I wanted to get your take, mister Russo on the lottery situation.
Joke.
Yeah, okay, yeah, go ahead.
I mean it. I mean, there's no way that Dallas and San Antonio should be won.
Too in a lottery, and Utah what a fourth fit whatever might be them.
Yeah, we're fifth with Wizards. I mean it's a joke. I mean, the idea that the NBA has got to do this because these teams lose on purpose to get these picks the last fifteen twenty games of the year is an absolute disgrace. But I know they waited, we all know that, and it's ping punng balls and all that. But Dallas getso has a one point seven percent chance to win the lottery. They and they went flag. I mean that is a little rough. I don't know what
the solution is, but it's it's a disaster. I mean at Drivesha're crazy and I don't like it. And if you're a Utah fan, you know Flags the one guy who wanted to get he's the one, at least on paper, the one guy there that is the transformational player. And he goes to a team that you know, traded Luca and they end up getting another kid now the next year, seventeen years of age. That's why I don't know why kid were go to leave when he's got this guy
for the next fifteen years. I know it's the Western Conference, but I feel bad for Utahn. I feel bad for the Wizards, and I feel bad for Charlotte. Those three teams had the worst records and they theoretically she get the three top players. Now, I don't know. You know, I understand these teams will lose. They give themselves the better chance to get that worst player. But uh, you know, I'm not sure what the solution is.
But I've had enough with a lottery. They know Atlanta had a.
Three percent chance last year to win the lottery.
They won it.
I don't like it at all. It's a grand big it's a TV show, and I think something needs to be done. Your solution is better than mine. I don't know what exactly you could do.
Well, you know, you could just do in verse order the way pro football does, right, You just reward the top pick to the worst team. Now, that doesn't de incentivize tanking, which Commissioner Silver has gone on record saying he very much wants to do. But I think the tough thing for us out here in Salt Lake is we're looking at an NBA finals with Oklahoma City in Indianapolis.
And over the past five or six years, teams in Milwaukee and Denver have been able to win championships in Minnesota has a good team, and Denver still will have something to say about it as long as they have
Nicola Jokic. We've entered mad dog, this era of parody where teams in smaller cities have been able to build up really, really competitive and championship level teams, and I think I'm just afraid that, you know, the Jazz are going to miss out on this opportunity to build a championship team during this era where teams in smaller markets have been able to do just that.
Boy, you have to be lucky. You gotta be terrible when that big player comes out, is what it comes down to. You know, San Antonio was terrible, There's Wemba Yama and they got the top pick. Dallas terrible, they get flagged. He's going to be great. You would think top pick. You know, you need to be I don't know what Giannis pick was. I don't think he was
the top pick. But the bottom line is you need to be an awful basketball team and then at the right time that the right player comes out of college is what it comes down to. And Utah hasn't had that advantage yet. Noahs Charlotte nor his Washington know those kind of teams. And you know, the NBA is about the great player. You got to get one to win one, and there's only about ten or to four out there. You know, Giannis is one of them. Indeed, healthy as
one of them. We all know about Jokic, he's certainly one of them, Luca probably one of them. Lebron was one of them. You need one of those guys to build your team and have a chance to win. I'll let you want to get lucky with a guy like Curry who turns out to be an old timer.
When he was the seventh ticket the draft.
So tricky stot for the Jazz. They've been a great franchise, run properly, but sometimes luck is involved here too. They great there for those years in the nineties, and they got to sit there and I got to do with Jordan so and they lose a couple of tough series. It's it's tricky. I mean, it's it's very, very hard to win these championships. You know, there's a reason why the Celtics and the Lakers or they got about thirty two of the seventy championships.
I mean, you know that's the very few.
You know, Jordan's got six, but Bron's got a half of whatever. He's got four or five. Let's see what got He's got four? Right? Is the woman the Lakers two with Miami woman Cleveland? You know the Curry's got four? You know, the one great player dominates and wins a lot of these rings. And Utah hasn't had that great player yet. So obviously stocked in great and alone great, but they ran into Jordan for the most part, they haven't had those great players yet, that one transformational player.
All right, before I set you loose, you referenced it earlier, and like everybody else, I picked Oklahoma City, I actually picked them in five. And it's funny, dog. I was watching the game with some buddies last night, and after Shay hit the layup to put them up seven with about I don't know, ninety seconds left or so, one of my buddies said, well, okay, that's over. I said, no, it's not. You didn't watch any of the Nick Indiana series,
said tight, let's see how this ends. I am so impressed with them, and I'm so impressed with Rick Carlisle. No part of me will ever be able to cheer for the Indiana Pacers. But last night made things really interesting. I think I'm still leaning okay see, but after last night, what say you about these NBA Finals?
Yeah, I mean, you know, listen, you can begin to start to think it just happens to be Indiana's year. I mean, it went four games like they've won in this postseason is miraculous. Last night may have been the biggest one. Well, I guess the nick game was in Game one, they were down five more points, but you know the fact that they only led for three tenths of a second, I mean, geez, and then it was
the last basket of the game. You know, I thought, okay see, in six, I did think Indiana would be very competitive in this series, you know, I know, okay see, he covered against Denver and had a great game two after they lost kind of a similar game in that first game. But this team right now is more dangerous than Denver was. They're a younger team, they're a hungrier team. They got more of a you know, this year, they got more of a foundation under them. They got a
bigger belief than Denver had. I think, you know, Denver a coaching change, and you know, only won the fifty games anything else. And I think okay See was very familiar with Denver than not as familiar with Indiana, So this will be. And I think Indiana in game two, well, they got do in game two. Don't get blown out, you know, don't throw away that first game by getting killed in game two. I think Denver kind of did that in that second game where they got destroyed and
never competitive. Don't let Oklahoma City have an easy game, put sless on them. Make that game anybody's game with eight minutes to go, and if you lose, you lose, but you make Oklahoma City get a little nervous. And I think that would be interesting to see how okay See handles that. Now. They did handle that Denver game four well, when they were down you know, eight nine points in the fourth quarter and they came back to win. And they did handle game five well, don't get me wrong,
because they were in trouble. They were at to two. But Indiana's got loose something going on right now. I would agree with you, Spence. I still think the okay See probably will win, but you know, and Indiana is a goodbye. It's worth a shot because of that karma and that belief. I remember. Okay, see now I said, this is the deep end of the pool here. This is not the second round. This is deep end of the pool against the team that has been around a lot with a big coach. So we shall see. But
it's got a chance to be a good series. Now, how's a chance?
Well, mister Ussa always a pleasure. I still listen whenever I can. And as I often say when people ask me when I wanted to get into this business, it's when I used to listen to you and Mike driving around town. And so I appreciate your time. I know you're busy. I'll set you loose and again, thanks so much. I really appreciate it.
I stance. You do a wonderful, wonderful job. You're a good talk so saying your old man's a good man.
You know that I love you for all.
No, that's kind of you. Appreciate that.
Have a great show today, Okay, okay, buddy, appreciate all right.
The great Chris Russo, mad Dog, Mike and the mad Dog one of my uh uh really uh, I would say kind of muses or rosebuds that made me consider doing this for a living. A number of different years ago and Chris is still doing it at a very high level.
You can see him.
I think it's Wednesdays with Stephen A. Smith on First Take. He has his own show daily on Sirius XM