Bonus Episode pt. 2

our kuns especial special Lebron James. We look for an opportunity of weekend on a flam and being the best in the world. I guess the Redeem Team is because it is right. We're the best team in the world. We're the best team in the world. Where we put Basketball America, Basketball wheels beat, Which is that time? All? Welcome to Kobe, Lebron and the Redeem Team. This is the second part of a discussion that j Adandhie and I had with two notable hoops chroniclers, Jeff Van Gundi

and Zach Low. We pick it up with j A talking about the season's crazy compacted NBA schedule. I want to go back, Zach. You talked about how the league or just how crazy it's going to be this year with the turnaround from finishing the finals to basically going ahead right over to Tokyo for for the Olympics. One of the reasons that they did go for the the schedule is the way it is this year is because they wanted to finish in time and they had to pack all these games in time to do the Olympics.

But we've seen the price that's being paid and all these injuries and um, you could argue diminished quality of play as well. And Zack, I'm wondering the reporting and I know these type of things come up. What this means long term for the future, and are there any

serious discussions about shortening the number of games. Obviously there would have to be a huge financial concessions to do so, but is it's starting to reach the point where the concerns about um, the physical toll being taken on bodies and improving the quality of the product would be worth it to make that financial sacrifice. I feel like that's been a semi serious discussion for ten years, but it

never actually gets serious. Like I feel like we've had the same just like Oh, Adam Silver is like, you know, result he's open to it. You know, we're just going everything's on the table in the league office, and it's like and then all the money, the money, the money, the money and the money, and so we just sort of keep running the boulder up the same hill and

nothing is gonna ever happen. I I still think I think it's a discussion worth having, and and there has to be some financial modeling that can show that scarcity would have some sort of power. Maybe you can increase ticket prices, maybe viewership increases if there are fewer games. But this season, you know, everyone wants to connect the trend line of you know, the compressed schedule to an

increase in injuries. I mean, the league will tell you there is no increase in injuries, but you also see teams just holding guys out of games, you know, holding guys out of back to backs, trying to stop guys from playing four and five and through you know, three and four, whatever it is. So this season has been tough and it just we've just Donovan Mitchell just got

hurt right before we came on this podcast. Thankfully, it doesn't seem to be more than an ankle sprain, maybe a severe ankle sprain, but yeah, I think this discussion is going to keep going. And I if you put a gun to my head, I think in twenty years or fifteen years, the NBA is not going to be playing eighty two games. I just, I just but maybe I'm naive. I don't know. For me the answers, I don't care what the question is. In pro sports, the

answer is money. So like if they're asked, if the owners are asked, or the players are asked, or the league is asked to take one less dollar, it's not happening. And um, that's just how it is. It's it's you know, at the end of the day. Um, And I agree with Zach, like this schedule is insane this year. It's it when you can't physically practice. You don't have any days. Um, the they call protocols or whatever they call it, but the rules of testing. You you land at two am,

you have to be back to test at ten. You know, uh, you know we were talking about sleep doctors, you know, three years ago. Now no one cares about sleep because of money, and so the whole, the whole thing. It's been one miserable experience this year. It really had all

in the name of money. And the problem going forward is next year is going to be impacted too, because it's gonna be a shorter off season, Like they're gonna have to start at the right time, and only after next season are they going to be able to get back into a normal rhythm of draft Summer League September, you know, starting October and play a normal lady two game schedules. So um, I feel for these players, you know, and I am the biggest anti load management. Play every

game you're healthy to play. But this year, I completely understand why teams are doing what they're doing. Now. Some players and teams overdo it and they just don't like playing. I've never seen more personal days ever taken an NBA. I don't know what's happening, but like, there was never a personal day taken like in my time coaching in the NBA, Like not like maybe it would be called personal day if a guy missed for the birth of

his child. But now like we had guys who would go to the birth of their child on the same day and come back and play. Now that doesn't happen. So there's a lot more personal days too, and they're not you know, you don't know what what the personal issues are. Well, and to the point of this podcast, can you imagine making the NBA Finals, Like, all right, we won the championship. Yes, I gotta get out of plane to Japan right now because my international team meets.

I mean it's gonna be and then I get back from the Olympics. It's like, oh my god, training camp starts in three three weeks. No, it will happen. Whoever wins the finals, if they decided to take people from that last round, will at most have twenty four hours. I would say, I think we can all agree that, Um it's you know, Jeff alluded to it in the beginning that it's really different coaching national team Chuck Daily.

Let's face it, I love check Chuck the great late Chuck Daily, but coaching a dream team a little bit of a vacation, it got harder. Mike Sachowski had to

Mike make some changes. So I wondered, Jeff and both you and Zach can reflect on this back when they were choosing a coach, and this was maybe this wasn't interesting to anybody else, but a couple of people mentioned right away that it was more natural to get a college coach to coach that team, and back then it was either gonna be Stowski or Pop we're talking about two thousand five. This is that it was more natural to get a college coach because the pro coach would

bring too much recrimination. Hey, something happened invariably he called one of the guys that's gonna be playing a punk or something happened between there. Yeah, god man. Yeah. So I found that interesting because it was the exact opposite when it first started, this idea of pros and international play, which was, oh my god, they're not gonna listen to a college guy. So bringing it to Pop it could have just been specific to Pop because he's said, let's

just say a strong personality. But it was a little bit counterintuitive to many people when Mike Schofsky got picked over uh, Gregg Popovich. So any thoughts on that, does Zach or or Jeff Well, I would say that, um, you couldn't go wrong. I always say when you get into these debates of who do you want who would you start a team with, Like you can go first, I'll go second. I'll be fine with whoever else it is.

It's the same with that coaching. Uh, decision. I think, you know, think about the greatness of Mike Shavski, that Jerry Colangelo would even consider a college coach to do that, and then think about the greatness of Great Popovich to be bypassed for that long um for a national team honor, to coach the team, be such a great representative of the NBA through winning and his comportment and his you know, all the things he brings, and to still be honored

and humbled two assumed that role. Uh when Mike Shachofski, you know, stepped down. So you know what what it shows me is that since let's start with the from the dream team, you know, Chuck Daily, I mean, we've had these incredible coaches. I think the one that gets overlooked as much as any is Rudy tom Janovic and and the and the job he did in the World Cup when he had no NBA players, and then the Olympics. I mean, we have just been with amazing, amazing national

team coaches. It's the interesting thing about the pop is um. You know, obviously there's gonna be NBA players on Team USA, but the more NBA coaches there are on the staff, and the more NBA trainers there are on the staff and health people, you said, and this is very relevant for the Redeemed Team. From at least the players side, you start to hear the grumbling from other people around the NBA who aren't there, being like, well are they

are those guys getting a competitive advantage? Like they're getting to know the star players are getting cushy with the best plot that guy is gonna be a free agent in two years? Is this gonna matter? And people start connecting dots, even if the dots aren't really there, they're just kind of hazy little spots. But you know, the sort of mythology of the Redeemed team leading to the heatles. I think that the heat players will tell you that's

been a little overblown, but it's never gonna go away. Hey, look, if I somehow end up in the NBA and I'm in Japan this year, you can bet my ass is gonna be well, I don't know what your word is cozy enough to all the star players, like you're gonna take advantage of every advantage that you have in competition, every legal advantage. And you know, people said the same thing about Mike Trochowski. Did he have a uh uh an innate recruiting advantage because he coached these national teams.

Well maybe he did, but I don't begrudge that. You're gonna take advantage of anything you have. So and you're gonna take Mason Plumbly on Team USA every damn time, no matter what. Hey, You're gonna do what you gotta do. And I guess what if Curry's on the national team and he was I don't know, is he a free agent coming up? Not that potentially after next season, but

he's he's extension eligible. Now, Okay, guess what if James Barrego was on the staff because he was, you know, Pop's assistant at one time, He's gonna be sucking up to Steph Curry like, no, get out, that's just how it works. Come home, come back to Charlotte, your hotel,

already done everything in the Bay Area. Come on, man. Yeah, if you were with pat Riley staff in the nineties, when he certainly would have been under consideration for a Team USA, why why did pat Riley He's one of the great coaches that did not coached the men's national team. Do you know why that dated? Why they did not

have him? I mean they had Chuck Daily, so you know, um, and I think if if I'm just guessing here, but I would think, um, back then, Um, it wasn't the commissioner pretty much in charge of picking who the coach it was, it was Stern And I guess, yeah, Roth Thorne, we had a little bit of like some animosity going on. I think that would be one And I think second Day might worry that, which I think was unfounded that he he would work the players too hard. You know,

he wouldn't be out golfing with them. Um, you know so, uh, but I think it was probably you know, they had other great options obviously, Chuck Daily, Man, what a great coach. Yeah, it's still one of the great lines ever. Is his job as a coach is to coach, is to land the plane through turbulence. You know, that's his job. And like like he was great, But I think the animosity

was real. You forget, Rod Thorne used to work out in our weight room at the next Like, think about this, the head of discipline used to because he lived right next to our very close to our practice facility. Back then, he had a key to our work. You know, like you know, these weren't like spacious or spectacular workout rooms. Either. This is like you know, early nineties, he used to work out there and then when Riley came in, Uh, that was closed off, right, So no more team Nick,

we're all in it together. We weren't in it together. And so there was some you know, there was a little bit of uh, let's just say animosity um that continued on through that next decade. Um. So it was real and and you know, I know they think they were objective, but you know, in some cases we thought they may be lacked objectivity. Well that was a and so Chuck Daily, Chuck Daily got the job, even though he coached the most hated team, the most hated team

of that era. And only Chuck could have waited his way through that maelstrom of hatred toward you know, Isaiah and Ricky mchorne and Lamb Beer and those guys. It's one of the great machiavelli and if we can put it on that one of the great feats political feats of of all time. And then skirt the issue of Isaiah not being on the team also, but this is

completely old news. Go ahead, Yeah, you were gonna say something, Jack, I was just gonna say that that those hard feelings followed pat Riley down to Miami and the infamous Juwan Howard case when they signed Juwan Howard and then the league avoided that free agent contract because they said that they had underestimated the amount of solder cast space they had, and then pat Riley on a conference call came up

with the all time classify. He says, the only thing we underestimated was the extent of the league's animus towards us. Never forget that one. We're gonna take a break for a minute, and we'll be right back with Kobe Lebron

and the redeem team. We'll close on this note a little bit more serious note as we head toward and look forward to to the Tokyo Games, and we we've seen social justice and speaking out on on on the racial issues in our country interwoven with the n B A for the bubble certainly throughout the bubble with Black

Lives Matter on the court throughout the current season. And it's interesting to think that there could be the potential for something if you team, sayd Win, were to win, would there be some type of statement made during during

the playing of the national anthem for example. Um, and it's it's it's a very delicate road in Jeff, again, given your experience with teams, a coaching internationally and the time you've spent around the NBA, and I'm wondering if all so you can speak to your brother has been very outspoken Stan Van Gundy on these issues currently the coach of the New Orleans Pelicans. How do you think

that would be navigated? We we've seen the outspokenness of these players, We've seen how much it matters to them, and what do you think would how would that play out given the international environment that you're familiar with from coaching Tmosa as well. Yeah, first of all, I think I'm so proud of stand and those other coaches, Gregg Popovich, Steve Kerr, many others. Right, they were way before. But this this wasn't a Johnny come lately this year. This

has been ongoing. UM and so um. People can have their own opinions. You know, you read the Twitter. I'm not a Twitter guy, but like Stan has some supporters, some people come at him hard, but I love that he's unafraid of taking a stand. Same with the other coaches. I do think with the national team, it's a little different. UM. I think I'd be surprised if any coach or player UM refrain from speaking about the issues that UM they believed in strongly, But if they took some stand UM

at the Olympic Games. UM, I would be surprised, UM, because I think you know, when you're playing for your team. UM. I think it's it's just different. So not that they don't have the right, not that USA Basketball would ask them not to do something. I don't think they would, they would do that, but I would be surprised if the focus is off is on other things other than

the Olympic Games and the spirit of the Olympics. But I'm very proud that our players and our coaches and were importantly many of our owners are encouraging UM the expressions of or the freedom of expression, to take stands and to even take criticism from others, you know. Like I really am impressed with the owners now and UM, I think there's a lot of conservative owners that are

still allowing, you know, this freedom of expression. So, like I said, the bubble was great, I was even more proud of the people that came before that and led the fight. UM. Even before the bubble. So yeah, it's it's been good and I'll be interested to see what happens with the national team, but I think the focus there will be just on the Olympics and the Olympic spirit in the competition. Zach, Where do you think the

owners are at now? Jeff? Jeff brought that up, and and we we have seen you know who they've donated to politically, and and uh, they might not be outspoken, but follow the money and you can see where where their beliefs lie. Um. And yet there's this you know, the players are tugging them in a different direction. And so where do you think the ownership and the power

structure of the league stands on these matters? To me, that's that's gonna be the most interesting moment, if it ever happens, is when a player who plays for a team who's governor is publicly on the other political side. Um, happened in the w n B A w n B A for sure, you know in Atlanta. Well, well they on the that's right, she's not there anymore. Will that will will something like the Kelly Loffler thing ever happened

in the NBA. I guess it happened with Donald Sterling, but that was a whole I mean, Donald Sterling brought that upon himself and and it reached the point of such disgustingness that it was sort of unavoidable. But I agree with the Jets as far as one of the ers are. I think they're just sort of you know, even even if I'm sure there are still some governors who would prefer that the players keep politics. I mean, it's not even politics, it's basic human rights in decency,

but we call it whatever you want. Would would would would prefer the players just focus on basketball and sports. But also no, on a pragmatic level, it's a losing battle for them to try to keep the players to focus just on sports and best all that they'll end up looking so bad anyway. But there are some I think, who are you know, Hey, it's it's there, right. I might disagree with it, but we're built on freedom expression

of ideas. And then there are a lot who are fully supportive of everything that the players are talking about. And I think, zactly the one thing I'll be interested in. You you said, um, you know, does it ever come to pushing a governor out or an owner out? I

forget what the politically correct term is right now. But um, I think what I'm interested in does it ever become the deciding factor in a free agency like, um, you know I have Owner A and Owner B, and I say, you know, I picked Owner A even though he was offering less money because I couldn't go. I couldn't do this because, like you said, Jaf, I followed the money. He may not be outspoken, but it goes so counter to my beliefs that I just can't do it. I am.

I'm very interested to see if that ever comes about, or if it just continues to be all about legacy and money. To me, it doesn't. It doesn't even have to come to to that or to forcing an owner out.

I didn't even mean to apply that. I just meant that, like if you played, I mean just name a team you played for, the Orlando Magic, you could start a dialogue any time you wanted about the divorce family and what they stand for me any any at any game you wanted, you could just you could start that dialogue. I mean, it's just sitting there waiting to happen. And again, Jeff, I mean we even saw there were all these what the situation you talked about Will Will. I think we'll

hear rumblings of that at some point. For sure, we're gonna take a break for a minute and we'll be right back with Kobe Lebron and the Radeem team. I just gotta ask all three of you one more question, because this morning, uh, I invariably get one of my friends. You know, I watched Portland's Denver game last night. They shot ninety two threes, they made seventeen of them. Why the hell am I watching? So the the effect of

the Curry effect. I guess I'm just asking in general the state of the game, because everybody always asked me because I go back to I mean, people were thinking I was watching Dolf Shay's hit the overhead set shot. Actually I did see some of that, by the way, but I just yeah, you know, I used to see the Syracuse and NATS and a doubleheader at the at Convention Hall. Nevertheless, uh, I watched the skin. I keep saying the skill level of the players today is a joke.

It is so high, but it doesn't always translate to something that traditional fans want to see, which is, you know, the the game. So just briefly, if you can all three of you the state of the game as you as you see it now and why it's still a great game, just to wait the argument one way or the other. Zack, I think the game is really fun. Um. I think the idea that NBA teams don't play defense

is absolutely ridiculous. Playing defense in the NBA is really really hard right now with how how much ground you have to cover, let alone all the rule changes and emphasies that Jeff talked about before that are meant to benefit perimeter offensive players and all that. I do think we are approaching a saturation point, or may already be there where for some fans and maybe not for younger fans, maybe where all of us here are too old to really feel how a twenty two year old process is

the league. But where there are, the game is too much just about who made more threes, who was hot that night, you know, But you look at every box of where seventeen of whatever from three, nine of whatever from the seventeen team one, that's it. That's the whole game. And you know, we could go off on a million tangents about and people have proposed lots of different solutions or ways you could tweak the rules to make sure

that the game isn't all about threes. But three is just fundamentally so much more than two that I don't see an end in sight for teams evolving in that direction. And yeah, it presents challenges for defenses, and it's it's to see how they respond to it. But it's every game now a three on one is ending in a

pull up three instead of a dunk. And and there are no there are three guys in the league who can post up with any sort of efficiency that that Trump's just driving and kicking to Like pick a random average three point shooter, this Solomon Hill shooting it above the break three is a better option than that, like LaMarcus Aldridge doing anything God bless him on the left elbow or something. But that that saturation point has probably

already been breached. And and I don't think we're going I don't think it's it's the reversing of that trend is happening without some engineering of the rules by the NBA. Mark Jackson always says styles make fights. Different styles, and Darryl Moray said the other day UM that the GM of the seventies sixers UM you need to look at a system where there's only one way to win, and

that's you know, shooting threes. And I think he nailed that. Um. I find the proliferation of the three, Like you said, Jack, I think the skill is off the charts, the like just average players, what they can do with the ball, the range they can shoot with you know, you can make it a four point shot. I mean they it's amazing. And yet I don't find the three point shot um as exciting as plays at the rim. So going to zax,

you know, three on one, three on two. I I love like when a guy challenges another guy at the rim, and you don't see that as much because they get in there and they spray it out, sometimes taking what as an outstanding shot and and making it into just a very good shot. Um, you know, because the layup and the free thrower still you know, the best shots.

But um so I'm concerned with it. I don't find it at times like I think you're you're watching the same game no matter what the opponents are, and it just it takes away some of you know the variety of play that I always found um intriguing. And I agree with Za that it's going to be up to the rules and engineering it such that too, if you want to bring a little bit more balance and a

little bit different styles to the game. I agreed. The aesthetics of it I'm not a fan of, but I'm a fan of the health of basketball because of the great talents and the array of talent, much more so than in any of the previous four decades that I've been watching it. And Uh, part of that is the legacy of the Dream Team and all the international talent that it created, and the interests in basketball around the

world that that team created. And I love the fact that there's the Honest and Luca and Nicole, and so I love the state of the NBA from that regard, it's a very good, healthy place, I think, and I stay keeping those players healthy is the key, going back to our discussion about the schedule and what could be done about protecting player health and mental health as well. Um, you just wonder though, if and I think it will happen, coach, like, I think we'll have a player that that makes it

zag right. We had Steph Curry come along. If and when another Shaquille O'Neil comes along, maybe it does tilt back to running the offense through the low post and a powerful inside player. There just hasn't been another thing like Shack, and there aren't a lot of Shacks out there, but there was a World Chamberlain, and you could argue Shack was his descendant, and maybe someone will descend from Shack,

although his literally descendant is funny. I saw his son played from my high school where I went to high school, and he didn't go inside the pain at all. So even Shack's own offspring played the modern game of a perimeter game. But I think someone will come along to shift it. But until then, I do think the talent throughout the league keeps it in a pretty good well.

We could have gone on forever, and j A and I can't thank Jeff Van Dundee and Zach Low enough for their opinions, observations and inside knowledge, not to mention their endurance and hanging with us for well over an hour. Part one of this discussion is available, as is the entire season of Kobe Lebron and the redeem Team. J. Dodney and I hope you've enjoyed listening to it as much as we've enjoyed recording it. I'm Jack McCallum. IM

thanks again for listening. The Dream Team Tapes. Season two, Kobe lebron and the Redeem Team is a production of Diversion Podcasts in association with I Heart Radio. For more podcasts for my Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This season is written and hosted by me, Jack McCallum and j A. Dande, Executive producer Scott Waxman and Mark Francis for Diversion Podcasts and Sean ty Toone for I Heart Radio. Our editorial

director is John Tuttle. Supervising producer Brian Murphy, legal producer Freddie Overstegen, Editing, mixing and sound designed by Mark Franz. Verna Fields is our technical producer, and our director of Marketing and business Development is Jacob Bronstein Diversion Podcasts