Bonus Episode pt. 1

nice especially special Lebron James. We look for an opportunity of the the weekend on athlem I'm being the best in the world. I guess the Redeem Team is because it is right. We're the best team in the world. We're the best team in the world. We put Basketball America, Basketball wheels the beat. Which is that time? Hello and welcome to Kobe, Lebron and the Redeemed Team. I'm Jack McCallum.

For ten weeks of this podcast, myself, co host j a Adande, and our technical wizard Mark Francis, who's from Australia and who kept wondering why don't we have more about Andrew Bogan in this podcast? Uh, we have taken it hard to the hoop. We have a showed the mid range jump shot. And now j a Adandhie we find ourselves in the bonus. What do you think of that? In the bonus? It sounds better than what the old Phoenix p Announced used to say in the penalty and

the bonus sounds so much more rewarding, isn't it. It certainly does. And in podcast terms, in the bonus means you're doing extra work, but not exactly getting any more money for it. That's what in the bonus means in the podcast world. But fortunately I heart radio because they are so generous. Said to us, if you can find two interesting guests to join you on a panel, you will get an extra one hundred thousand dollars. They don't really know that yet, but I heard that was kind

of a rumor. So tell us who is joining us today j a on this bonus episode? Two very interesting guests, so maybe they'll double our bonus pay here. But one both of them I worked with at ESPN in my days.

There one Zach Low who I remember. Zack. Remember we recorded that that video feature thinking that the Warriors are about to wrap up the NBA Finals, only to discover while we're recording it that no Draymond Green was probably gonna get suspended as he was eventually for for Game five, and so we looked at the forus on that one. I vividly, vividly remember having a whole the s H I T moment during that is where the kids like, We're like, it's over, We're not coming back to Cleveland.

It's all what. And the other I've had pleasure of working games with on ESPN TV is Jeff Van Gundi And of course you hear him with his commentary during NBA games, and of course you remember him as a coach in the NBA with the New York Knicks in the Houston Rockets, and you might not know that he has a t ms A connection and that he has coached our World Cup qualifying teams UH quite well with with rosters that uh let's say we're not the redeemed

team exactly and has successfully coached him and helped our squad UH reach the World Cup qualifying thanks to his efforts. Jeff, welcome, and I want to ask you the difference between international basketball and NBA basketball, how you had to adjust, how players had to adjust, and how you can give us a sense for what it was like for players such as the two thousand eight Olympic team to make that adjustment, Well, the thing you have to do is realize, UH, same sport,

different game. The level of physicality is much different. Uh no illegal defense. The referees don't know you and don't care to know you. Um, you don't know why any call is made or not made. And one of the great things that Mike Sachowski told me early, he said, just don't argue anything because you're never gonna know why anything is called or not called. That had to be like a straight jack if you don't argue anything. No,

it really was. And I think the other thing is, UM, when you're an outsider and it and you're watching a FIBA basketball, Olympic basketball, or even what we did, you have this idea that you know we should win every game. And frankly I had that naive thought like we have the better players, like we're gonna win every time it's not close, and if it is close, it's disappointment. When you get to that environment, you realize a forty minute

game of the physicality is different playing against zones. UM. The players are outstanding, the coaches are even better than the players, and to get any win is usually a hard fought win. It gives you a renewed or gave me a renewed uh appreciation for how great our players are to overcome no continuity, very little practice time relative to the competition, and how good our coaches were to take on, you know, these huge pressures and come through time after time after time. Well who did you have?

Who did you coach on those teams? Jeff? Because a lot of this international basketball goes on. It's like almost a secret society. You know, we understand the Olympics and everything, but every summer something is going on with USA basketball. So just briefly, who did you have and where were you playing? So we did it over a course of three years. The most important person I had was a guy no one listening to the podcast will know, but his name was Shaan Ford. We've actually gave some shout

outs to Sean because he's the man. You know, he's been a big part of the podcast. He is the most valuable. He is a singular most valuable person in USA basketball. And if I ever was I came into billions of dollars and I purchased a team, he would be my first hire. He would run my team. I want him to write a book, Jeff, I wanted that he's got that guy's got a book in him that would that would be a bestseller. Well, he would be have to be. He's part of the mafia, though he's

not telling real stories. That's the but. But I'm gonna say so. I had him, which made everything easier. And then we had a bunch of G League guys. One summer the best team we had. We had a bunch of fringe NBA guys are best player uh Is, Derek Whitety starts for San Antonio. We had Frank Mason that year, but we had for the core of it, we had G League players and they were an ever evolving roster. And the thing guys that like when I was coaching the Rockets, um the G League was used as a

form of punishment. If you don't do what I say, I'm sending you to Laredo to the G League and you re never may never make it back. Right now, the G League is used so well, and I have such appreciation for how good these guys are at their job. But because they're not, you know, they're right on the cusp. They could have all been on a roster, but because they're not. The financial differences between the last NBA player and the best G League player is so stark that

you know, it was just so interesting. And I love these guys. I have such great appreciation for their talents, their perseverance, but most of all for who they are as people. I just I couldn't have had a better experience coaching for those three years. Um and No, like you said, Jack, no one knew the games were going on except us, and we cared deeply. Yeah, that's great. I'm sending you to Laredo, by the way, sends sounding a great country song, don't I'm sending you to Laredo.

You know, in contrast to the G League, we're gonna ask Mark Francis to play. Uh, We're gonna ask him to play a tape. Here it's Mike Showski because one of the things we love to do on podcast and all of talk radio quote is too rehash hopeless hypotheticals, and uh, this is what we're gonna do now, Mark,

fire up. Mike Saski talking about comparing the Dream Team of two and the Redeemed Team that J and I have been talking about for ten episodes, the condition of the Dream Team in two and of the Redeemed Team an opportunity to win just because of what was happening with Magic, where he's back and he was done. He was he was done and at the level that he wanted to play. Stockton was hurt. So you know, if they're all in their prime, there's no question that the

Dream Team is there. That the Redeemed Team, we were all talented at that time. You know, they were not sick. They would have given them, yeah, a run run for their money. I think, Zack, you were just starting I think we had this conversation before back in Believe me, I know everybody's saying McCallum eventually has to turn the

conversation to the Dream Team. But as I say, we like these hopeless hypotheticals, and J and I have going through in these ten weeks exactly how good this Redeemed team was and even the team that followed it in two thousand and twelve. But Zack, you were just kind of starting to really follow the game, I believe ninety two around there. So your memories of the Dream Team and do you think that these guys uh could give

them a run for their money. Yeah, I was fifteen in the summer of ninety two, so I was coming. I have followed the league my whole life. My dad was a huge is it was a huge NBA fan. But that, you know, your teenage years, that's when you really come of age as a sports fan. That's why you know, Jay and I have talked about this, That's why Michael will always be like as much a god to me, as like in a way that Lebron will will never be. And that's not just anything bad about Lebron,

is just how old that was at the time. So yeah, the Dream Team is is you almost don't remember what as a fan of that age, you almost don't remember. Like I remember that Larry Bird could barely play, could barely move. I know that Magic was coming off to the HIV and all that, But in my head, there's still Larry at Magic. There's still like when I think of the Dream Team, I'm like, oh, it's Larry and Magic.

They were out there just you know with people. Um, yeah, of course the Redeem Team could give the Dream Team a game. But if you have Lebron James on your team with all these other dudes, like you played. You put the Redeem Team into all their prime and most of them were in their prime, and the Dream Team all on their prime. The Dream Team and their prime is going to be favored and we'll win. Like if you had to play a hundred games, I probably guess

the Dream Team would win seventy. I don't know, but like Redeem Team is gonna get some games. And in zact, you know, we think about you and I because we're a little bit we're younger than Michael, so we were in part are enamored with the myth of Michael, but we've also seen the reality of Michael. And Jeff. You went against Michael in full fury, full Michael mo You

saw it up close. And that's the thing is, I just can't imagine if they're in a series that a team with Michael Jordan, even with an aging bird and an aging magic I just can't imagine the team with Michael Jordan's is gonna lose. Yeah. You know, obviously great, all time, all time, all time great and great competitor, but I think you know the difference, uh, one of the differences. Twenty six years later, the competition that the Redeemed Team faced was so much better, as was the coaching.

And I think sometimes because it's a more congenial period of time, like Lebron James is much more congenial, Like he tweets to everybody after they make a good shot in a game, like he's just different than Jordan's. But I think sometimes we we marginalize that, like his competitiveness, because he's so so he's just so kind, you know, Jordan's even if he lived in two Day's um, you know Arrow, he wouldn't be tweeting, Hey, good shot, Luca, Like he just wouldn't have done that in my mind, Like,

I don't see that. So but I think sometimes like to go along with Zack to think that a team led by Aid and uh James couldn't beat any team you know, I don't know, yeah, Like it's that's like preposterous. Of course they could, and they had to face much better competition along the way. Well to coaches point, though, that's like what you were saying before to about I

don't remember what exactly what we're talking about. But the Redeemed team name itself has always made me feel a little funny, because what do they need to be redeemed for like Argentina was amazing, like like like the team the team that won in two thousand fourth, and that's an all time great international teams. This idea that there was like a shame in the in the US not winning like maybe in the eighties and nineties that would

have been the case. But you know, the idea that I understand that there were some personality conflicts and some ugliness in the way that team USA lost in two thousand two, two thousand four, two thousand six, But they didn't. It's not like they lost to a bunch of oakesters. They lost to like a hall of fame, a group

of Hall of Fame caliber guys. Basically, Yeah, well I was I would cover those games and oh four and uh J and I have talked about this on an episode, and there was a real um and there was a lot of factors into it. We're not going to rehash them, but there was a real hatred of that team, and there was a lot of racism and a lot of

expectations pulled into it. And at that point, Zack, in two thousand four, we understood it who was covering it, but the world in general did not understand Manu Ginobli,

who the hell is he? You know, well, he's probably the best player in the Olympics, you know, so, uh it was different and also the one of the interesting things about this team, I'm sure Jeff remembers this was that after they got together, they still didn't have Kobe, but they lost to Greece in two thousand six in the World Championships and you know, got pick and rolled to death and it looked like another Oh my god, even with Shashevsky, We're not going to be able to

uh to pull this off. I never We never could find out Jay, could we who gave them the name of the redeem Team. We kept looking and I, you know what just sort of started appearing, you know, somewhere. I will say that they all bonded to it and grabbed onto it really quickly. We've gotten so bad at nicknames. That's one of the only few good either group nicknames or individual nicknames that we've had in the twenty one century.

And I blame us. Jeff, You're excluded from this, but the sports ride this here, Jack, Zack, myself, we're all part of this group that has just dropped the ball when it comes to bestowing nicknames on people, or we let them bestow nicknames on themselves. But like D. D. Wade is not a nickname, k D is not a nickname. Black Mamba is a nickname self bestowed, but it is a nickname. Flash Brothers to me is the best one. But I'm gonna go back to what Jack was talking

about the two thousand and six game. I think that was the singular, UH biggest UH game. If you hear Mike Sachowski in private talk about UH an awakening of you know, our pick and roll defense. Um, you know these guys I can't even say the big strong kid from Greece's name, but like he's in the middle of the paint with no elevation and he's just bruising. I coached Spinola's uh you know, so I knew what a

competitor he was. But you know, now you look at Greece and now you're saying, well, you know, uh, Janis and his brothers and you know, um they have other guys and so now you know, but back then you didn't know. And um, you know, I just think it was an awakening for everybody with USA basketball that really has spurred them on to such great success, and I think you know, it happened again for us in the

World Cup. You know, we were injured a little bit, um we didn't necessarily play as well as we could have hoped against France. But like it's it's it's not gonna be easy. Like I don't even I don't care if we bring everybody that we want to next time in the Olympics, there will be a game of struggle at least one And I think as a country, as a basketball community, not only should we expect it, but

that's what makes it fun. If you if you have no doubt that you're gonna win, what fun is the competition. I think it's gonna be awesome. And uh, Gregg Popovich is the right guy to try to bring us home. We'll think about the last World was it the last World Championship? Or two? A guy they all like Jack said, they all get mixed up to me. But it was supposed to be this showdown between Serbia and Team USA

because Serbia is loaded now. And Serbia's coach even said something like well if we I think he was a little bit mistranslated, but something like, well if they meet us in the gold medal game. Make God help them or something, and then they both lost in the quarterfinals because the competition is so good. Well, you know, And so I was doing the scouting over there, and I was at the Serbia argent Argentina game, and Serbia is loaded. Yokich comes off the bench. That's how crazy it is.

They have like this roster full of centers, and I don't know why they play them as little as they do, but whatever, Um and Argentina, with Composo and Scola and Deck and all these guys, they just carved him up. And you know, unfortunately for us, UM, you know, we we struggled with France, Gobert and and Feigner and those guys. But and then we played Serbia. Think about us. We were down at the end of the first quarter and I was a back to back and we were in

the constellation. We were down thirty one six or something at the end of one or in that and like, we came back and it was a very close, hard fought game at the end. But I'm telling you, there's a lot of people out there that in one forty minute game on a neutral court with referees who don't know our names, nor do they want to. It's it's gonna be hard. And also, I guys, think about it. To both of your points, Let's say Nikola Yokich wins the m v P this year. You know it's John

Candid to do so. That would be back to back foreign born players who are the m v P is going back to to Janice from the previous two. Uh Rudy Colbert could very easily be the Defensive Player of the Year, Luca don Chich the Rookie of the Year from a couple of years ago. I'm sure there's an m VP at some point in his future. And so since Lebron is probably done with his team USA days, we can't just assume that the USA is going to have the best player on the court if they play

against some of these teams anymore. I mean it used to be a given, and now, given the way the talent is distributed around the globe, it's just not a given that the American players will either be the best team or will have the best player on the court. Well, and you to go to that point, you don't even know who's going to be available because the season goes to mid July or late July and the seat the

Olympics start with of July, whatever it may be. So you may not you know, you may be going with some guys who are in the finals who never practice with the Olympic team. I mean, this is unprecedented. What's gonna be tried to pull off. Either you're going to take people that aren't in the final round or the final two rounds of the NBA playoffs and and get more practice time or to get maybe a little bit

better player. Now, this could impact other teams as well, right, I mean, um, it's gonna be very interesting roster decisions that Jerry Colangelo, Sean Ford, Gregg Popovich have. Um, but like you said, it's not a given. It's not a given. And to your point that it could impact lots of other teams because the NBA sou internet so now, but they're great point you made earlier is we typically, to you as a typically has been at a continuity and

chemistry disadvantage against some of the better international teams. Guys that girl are playing together played with club teams. They play every summer, and we tend to throw these teams together. Maybe that's exacerbated this summer, But I mean, that's that's something that we've had to overcome in all these competitions. All right, that was a big thing for the Redeem Team. But we're gonna take a break for a minute and

we'll be right back with Kobe, Lebron and the Redeem Team. So, speaking of Kobe and Lebron, one of the things we became kind of fascinated with during this podcast was Kobe wasn't Lebron and d Wade and Chris Bosh and Melo Carmelo Anthony they kind of signed this little contract in two thousand five that they would be around for three years. Kobe didn't really do that. He was kind of in and out and he finally shows up in two thousand seven.

And it really became fascinating to me when we kind of ask most of the people j and not everybody and about who if you have time is running down, you're down by one or you're ahead, you gotta win the game. Lebron is out there and Kobe is out there, who are you going to give the ball to? And here is what Mark Francis is gonna dial up Chris Bosh talking about it right now, Kobe and get out

the way. You know, I've never uh, just to ask my own philosophy, you know, I've never I never wants to make the game more complicated, um than it needs to be in that situation. You know, I just feel that, Um, that's what he's always done. That's what Kobe does. So that was Chris Bosh's answer. That was most people's and Sir j A except for Jason Kidd, who tied himself

into some you know, rhetorical not trying to exactly. I think he wanted to say I'd give it to Lebron, but then he thought, oh shit, I don't know whether I want to say that. So Zach Low, I don't know whether you had this figured out analytically, and they we're gonna go to Jeff answering it, and j has an interesting theory that brings Michael into it. But Zach, who you're going to give that ball to? You're the point guard. Well look, look, the first thing to say

is I've just got amazing choices all around me. Right, It's not like one of these choices is wrong. So let's just let's just say that. But I'll say what Jason Kidd, I guess didn't want to say is I'll give the bottle Lebron because I I because Lebron first of all his clutch stats. I don't know why people just don't steeven to recognize him. I think that's changed now that I think people do. I mean the buzzer beaters, all this. He's at the top of all these lists.

But Lebron, it can score himself or if Kobe's open, he's gonna find Kobe. So I feel like I get the best of both worlds with Lebron and the other name. We should at least bring up Chris Paul, who statistically is one of the greatest clutch players and clutch scores in modern basketball history. And and all that gets magnified are that his teams have not gotten as far as

people think they should have in the playoffs. But he's made a ton of big shots, and if you look at the numbers regular season, he's like one of the great crunch time players are He's not going to get the ball in this situation because Lebron's on the court and Kobe's on the court. I just want to give cplttle love, Jeff, He said the defending champion Spurs home coming off the last Championship Game seven, playing with a bad hamstring that would keep him out the next two games.

In the next round, he sent them home on the last second shot. I I love him too, because I told I mentioned this on the podcast. I did a story on last second shots, and I don't know why, but I went to New Orleans, probably because I wanted to go to New Orleans, and I talked to Chris Paul about it. That night. Chris Paul makes the last second shot that came into the locker room. He goes, you know the story was made that never works out. But coach Van Gundhi, what do you do there? It's

time out. You've got Kobe looking at you, You've got Lebron looking at you. And also on this team, we won't get into this. D Wade was unbelievable on this team. Also d Wade sometimes the answer to Kobe or Lebron was d Wade. But between those two, Jeff, what are you gonna do? I would put the ball in Lebronze hands because he seemingly always creates um a great shot, people having a second and third defender having to come to you know, to him, and which opens up the

second shot. But like Zach said, you can't go wrong. If you go to Wade, you go to Paul, you go to you go to Bryant, you couldn't be wrong. And I think you know what's hard about that decision if you have all those answers trying to pick the one, the right one, uh, in the course of a game, sitting down at a time out. If if you only have one choice, you know you only have one of

them on your team, it becomes easy. But as a coach, if you're ever in a close geam like that, to pick the right one, now that's hard because you know you'll be second guest if it doesn't work out. How did you pick between Team Mac and Yao in Houston? McGrady, that's it just perimeter, the passing, the perimeter, ball handling the perimeter. You know, big guys, even you know, it just keeps getting worse. They get um, they're they absolutely

get because the league doesn't want post play. They allow anything to go. You can club them, you can grab, hold, punch, kick, nothing happens. If you blow on Steph Curry, you get a flagrant foul. It's just it's not the player's fault. It's just how they want the game to be. So you're you can't go to a post player like like that can't be your go to play. It's too hard to execute and there's too many schemes and or physical

contact allowed that takes you out. Jeff, let me ask you if you think the ability to get to the line is a diminished factor now because of the three pointers. So when Steph Curry won his m v P, he won an m v P. I forget what the numbers were, but we hadn't seen an m VP get to the line as infrequently as Steph Curry had for a long time because obviously, shooting all those three pointers, you're not

gonna get to the line very much. And I used to say the value of Superstar in the playoffs was that he was going to get the calls, and Steph Curry changed all that. So obviously we've seen James Harden really rely on on drawing fouls to to be a big part of his arsenal. But in your mind, in playoff basketball now, is getting foul calls as important as

it used to be with teams shooting so many threes? Yes, you know, Curry is an outlier in every sense of the Whey was talking to Jack before we went on, like, this guy is better at thirty three than he was at It's it's truly amazing how he plays, and no one else can play like that. They try to play like that, but like, you can't play as efficiently as he does. You're not as good with the ball and without the ball and in the level of conditioning level

that he's in. So he's amazing. But I do still think not only individual free throws, but team free throws because it has it's not just about the offense, j A. It's about getting to the line and then setting your defense and not having to play against transition offense, which is you know, that's what Janice does for the Bucks, and Harden did for Houston and now for you know, Brooklyn.

It it's such a weapon at both ends of the floor, you know, getting easy points and also being able to prevent those four on threes and five on four's that ultimately lead to easy baskets or or pull up threes that that go in probably or more likely now. But Curry is we're getting off on a tangent here, but he he is a revolutionary to me. He changed the game more than you know, Michael or Lebron or Magic was a guy. Well he's gonna change the game. He

got a six ft nine inch point guard. Well, nobody came along like him. He didn't, you know, he remained sort of, you know, alone. But Curry now has changed it so much. But you know, one of the failings of it is everybody's trying to play like him, and nobody is that good, you know, nobody is that accurate, you know, And uh, I just think he's probably more revolutionary than anybody since Bill Russell, who changed, you know, kind of changed the idea that you could go from

defense to offense. But I don't know, and he is that too strong of a opinion anybody, Zach. I remember, I think one of the most underrated playoff series of the last twenty years was two thousand thirteen Spurs Warriors in the second round of the playoffs. It was before the Warriors were the Warriors. They had upset the Nuggets in the first round and they split in San Antonio on the road. They should have won game one. They were up big in Game one. Yeah, you know one

game one. It was a miracle comeback by the Spurs, and it was this realization that here are the Spurs for twenty years, the best or second or third best defensive team in the league every year with Tim Duncan, who I'm curious to talk about Tim Duncan. It's is his Team USA resume is so interesting to me that he just never really did anything internationally. He hated it he was in Greece. I've never seen anybody wanted to

get out of athletes so bad, you know. But you could see the Spurs with Steph Curry taking these off the dribble, three's on pick and roll. You could see the Spurs, and you could and through the Spurs the sort of collective NBA community sort of realizing at the same time, oh my god, this is this is a glitch in the system. This carries over into the playoffs. This guy has a problem that we have not encountered before.

And the Spurs, I don't know if they get out of that series, if but I think Bogan and got hurt in that series, and the Warriors were kind of limping along by the Curry maybe even sprained an ankle or something at some point. But like, that was a brutal series for the Spurs, who were a championship caliber team obviously, and that was that's the one I remember that was like the revolution happening in real time. Yeah, the off the dribble three which you know, everything was

catching shoot threes. You know. I hearkened back showing my age to Mark Price. You know, Mark Price shot that right. And so if he would have been given that same freedom, like he would have been the problem twenty years thirty years earlier. But I think to give that type of freedom, and that freedom given to Curry has led to a different um idea of what a good shot is. Uh.

It's it's truly amazing. The skill level. You look at what Kyrie Irving is doing this year, like when he plays like that freedom he has, like it's it's a joke how good he is. It's just he's just ridiculously good. But I think it all that whole thing started with Curry. I think, you know, Mike D'Antoni downsizing and playing you know, fives at four's, fours at three's and and so on, and Steph Curry's the freedom given to him, uh, and

then his skill level to back it up. Those two things stand out to me to bring us to the game that we have today. Yeah, and what it did to the defense is so the series. Zach referenced that first round series at the Wars played against Denver that year. I just remember seeing a play and I screen grabbed it because the War, the Nuggets defenders came out to double teams Steph Curry like out by near half court,

and so they were just seeding that free throw line area. Jeff, you know that they used to be such a valuable territory for the defense, and they just gave it up to go double team Steph Curry way away from the ball. And it became even more extreme in the bubble last year when Dame Lillard was just going absolutely bonkers and at one point he was getting double team in the

back court. It wasn't a full court press. This was a double team of Damian Lillard in the backcourt because they didn't even want him let let him get to half court because they're afraid he shoot if he got to half court uncontested. Well, and and and even in the bubble last year, you know, Houston wins Game one against the Lakers, and the Lakers have been the best defensive team in the in the league all year pretty decisively,

and they said, we can't handle hard. We we're doubling him late and you know, and they just we're going to make other guys make plays like throughout the course of the game. And I think, you know, these guys are so good. Plus the rules are so different, no hand check, Um, you know they've become such good, uh, foul seekers, contact seekers, um that I think you're gonna

see more of that in in the playoffs. If you have Steph Curry right and like you have all these guys he's playing with right now, you can't tolerate him. He can win a series by himself. He is literally that good. And ken Rick Perkins said something interesting the other day. He said he's a top when he retires, he's a top ten player of all time. And I sat there and I thought, I'm not sure about that,

but I know this. He is an absolute handful like I and people like I. He's loved looking at his reboundy. He has more rebounds per game on a lot of nights than he has assists. Like this guy is. He's not a one dimensional like just score like I think, because he is so great a score, he doesn't get nearly enough credit for all the other things he does so exceptionally well and as and as superior screener, just like John Stockton with that slight body. Yeah, he gets

any steph gets to the basket too. I mean he's not he's not dunking. But we're gonna take a break for a minute and we'll be right back with Kobe Lebron and the redeem team. You know, it's interesting guys were talking about catching shoot and I want to bring this a little bit to Jason Kidd. There was a moment, uh that Jason was talking about, you know, a lot of the early stuff with when Kobe got there was Kobe, we don't exactly need the Laker, Kobe, you know, we

don't need you. We don't need you firing up. And Jason went to him at one point and says, do you ever catch and shoot? Like, do you ever come off a screen? Curl off of screen? He may do that, and Kobe goes, now, this isn't good enough. I'm gonna I'm gonna dance around a little bit. But it brought me back, uh. And Jeff would be the only one old enough to remember this, and probably not even quite but when I was doing this book about Jerry West, was involved in it. Somebody had a hundred and sixty

Jerry West plays. He never caught and shot. He got the ball, dribble, dribble, dribble, back down, back down, back down. Once in a while he took a couple of quick dribbles, you know, went right up to the right. But it's interesting the difference what you said with Curry was shooting the quick three off the dribble. I mean, nobody did that. And I talked about Jason Kidd on this team, and

I want to bring the two things here, Jeff. Number one, the importance of a veteran leader and the importance of culture that sportswriters Zack j and I have heard, Oh my god, uh, culture is so important. And I want to go back to those two points. So Jay Kidd was a surprise on this team. First of all. Number one, as J and I j remembered, Jerry Collegelo had traded his ass at one at one point, you know, from Phoenix, and he wasn't happy. They were not happy with each other.

Jerry Klengelo called him up as the head of USA basketball then and said, hey, we want you to play. Jay Kidd said, you know you're you're kidding me. He thought he was. He literally thought it was a joke. Jerry had to tell him a couple of times. And I was surprised when we talked to Carmelo, Chris Bosh, Darren Williams not to mention Sheski Beheim, Mike D'Antoni how

important Jay Kidd was. Uh, that veteran leader. And the other thing was that Mike had a starting lineup that he started every game and it was j Kid, Dwight Howard, Kobe, Lebron and Carmelo. And at the end of the game, Zack's boy Chris Paul was liable to be in there, and Bosch was gonna be was gonna be in there. Jay Kidd played thirteen minutes. He took This is my favorite stat. What did I say, Jay? He took seven or eight shots? Seven shots? Yeah, I'm looking at out.

It's got to be seven because he ever zero point nine field goal attempts per game. Yeah, and he made I think he made five of them, were six of them or something? So I brought up a couple of points here. But first of all, uh, Zach, how many times have you heard about culture, and I never really exactly believed until I spent that season with the Sons and I saw how important you know, that really is.

So just reflect on that. And then Jeff obviously has been a guy who's been charged with building culture and how important it is. I still think it matters. I do think it matters, and the Jeff will tell you it all emanates. It has to emanate from your best player, right, I mean, the best player has to set the tone for everything. But you know, there there has become this

sort of fetish fetishization. I can't say that word of of culture, and that like without talent, culture is nice, and it's nice to have hard working players and a and a and a belief system that you stick to as a franchise. By the Nets had an incredible culture, right like they had these plucky over achievers, They believed in sports science, they played a certain way, and then

they threw all of it away. And that didn't throw their culture way, but all the people that had come up in that culture and had come to symbolize it are gone now except for Joe Harris basically and in game superstar talent, and the culture is clearly still fine because there have this best or second best record in the East, depending on what you at the standings, but you know the nets the like, talent is still talent.

You can't And then the other thing with culture is does it get bad when you start losing or do you start losing because the culture is bad. That's the one that's always unclear to me, because you know, we tend to and Jeff and I have talked about this

on podcast before. We tend to hear about and this happened with Houston and Harden, all of these issues about the culture was bad, the hardened was this and that only after he's out the door and the damage has been done supposedly, But like at the time you're winning, no one's really you're you're not hearing a lot about it. If I hear the term culture one more time, I'm in a puke. I am so sick of that term because it's so nebulous you don't even know what it means.

And so to me, it goes to chemistry, right like that used to be the term chemistry and chemistry to me was two things. How willing you are to pass and how hard you're willing to play. That allows you to maximize your talent. You going back to zeg if you want to win at all, you're gonna sacrifice a little bit on both of those to get elite talent if you have to. Now, hopefully you don't have to sacrifice too much or you may not be able to beat the other elite talent. But what what Brooklyn did,

Like they don't have the same culture. Come on, they're not hard working, overachieving, you know, root for the underdog there the behemoth with the most talent in the league, and like they're gonna win and it's not. It's it's not gonna be overachieving story. It's gonna be an achievement of talent. And they were able to accumulate three talents that are unguardable, all in their own way if they're to win it. So um. But Jack getting back, you

have something about Kid about veteran leadership. I think veteran leadership is only like I think we romanticize it in this way. If you can't still play, you have very little cloud. Like the thing about Jason Kidd, he can play, he could still play at that point, and for him to have the ability to walk up to Kobe and say, hey, Kobe, do you ever take a shot where you just catch and shoot? Like to have the basketball courage to walk up to uh, a mythologized player and be that direct.

Those other guys were all really good. I guarantee you they at that time weren't walking up to Kobe Bryant and asking that direct of a question, even if they had in their own mind that same thought. So well Jeff Lebron. Lebron went to Mike Sasefski and said, can you talk to Kobe about it? And then Mike was like, gold, but you're right, Jason Kidd did it directly, but even someone with Lebron stature had to go through coach k oh.

But it also like it's your personality, Like like Kid has one of the great accomplishments of all time in the NBA, taking the Woeful Nets to two straight finals. No one's ever gonna tell me in my time in the NBA that's not one of the greatest accomplishments. And he was a force of nature, um like defensively, rebounding, pushing,

but also with his directness. I have great admiration for him. Yeah, that's one of the things they really talked about J. I would say, all the guys, they all mentioned j J Kid, you know everybody. Yeah, even playing just a few minutes a game and he still had such an impact. So that's it for part one. For our panel discussion, J and I were joined by Zach Low and Jeff Van Dundi will be back for part two next week.

The Dream Team Tapes Season two Kobe lebron and the Redeem Team is a production of Diversion Podcasts in association with I Heart Radio. For more podcasts for my Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts for wherever you get your podcasts. This season is written and hosted by me, Jack McCallum and j A. Dandee. Executive producer Scott Waxman and Mark Frances for Diversion podcast and Sean's

High Tone for I Heart Radio. Our editorial director is John Tuttle, Supervising producer Brian Murphy, Legal producer Freddie Overstegen, Editing, mixing and sound designed by Mark francez Verna Fields is our technical producer, and our director of Marketing and business development is Jacob Bronstein. Diversion Podcasts