This is the Dallas Cowboys dot Com Draft Show. Cowboys. I'm there war room for incenter news and draft analysis from deep within the confines of Cowboys headquarters at the Star in Fresco, Dallas Cowboys. Select Lady and now your host Brian brought us well, well, welcome to the Draft Show. It's our annual bye week draft show. I really appreciate everybody hanging out with us across the country, across the world. Matter of fact, we appreciate all you guys a lot.
As the Big Boys guy said, I'm Brian brought us joined by my drafting buddy David Hellman. It's good to be back with you, Brian. Yes, it's always good to
have you, David. I appreciate that. And I really really pleased to add a new member to our draft show, a guy who I have a ton of respect for, Allegen and if you will, yeah, I used to battle him quite a bit when I was in Green Bay, and he went out and found guys like Larry Allen to make sure my life was hell after that, and so and then we later became teammates with Dallas Cowboys, and I'm a better scout for it. And fortunately for
us and for the Draft show. Sometimes you lose scouts, you know, Dane Bruglen, we lost him just for this show, but we'll have him for other things. But we picked up a scout, a great personnel man and Tom Siskowski Thomas, welcome to the Dark Side of the World here. Thank you, Brian. It's great to be here. I'll tell you what. I'm happy to have you, Tom, I really am. And this man's got great insight. He's like me. He's been in
a lot of war rooms. He's won some of his share of battles, he's lost some of his share of battles, and he'll bring great insight to what we're trying to do on a weekly basis. So I'm excited again to have him here. We're excited to have everybody out there that listens to us as Well's you guys make this uh, you know what we're all about here, the investigation and the education that's important to me. I also want to thank you know, Katin Gates, who's executive producing taking over
for Kent Garrison. Him and William Boykins will be helping us along these journeys. So we got a couple of new new members of the team, but we will still have the same quality of draft show. I promise you. I promise you that. All right, Thomas, since I've got you here, I want to go back and talk about what this team did in the two thousand and nineteen NFL Draft, and I want to get into the point of this as the way of looking at it, the thought without and I've been with you when we didn't
have a first round pick. I've been with you a couple of times and we didn't have a first round pick. But I want to know the when you guys were going into this draft, the thought of, Okay, how we're going to set up this board? Do you set it up in the way of we just gotta we got to grade them, give the players their due, and then find an area of players that we might like at fifty eight. How did you guys get to the process
of when you guys made that pick in fifty eight? Well, basically, you want to keep the board pure because you never know if there's a great trade opportunity where a team wants to bail and you could end up in the first round. So you've got to value every player. It's like a currency that there's value to each player. But for the most part, if you feel like you're going to stay put at the second round, yeah, you'll have
a gauge of guys that you're hoping you're there. Yeah, but what you don't want to do is pump air into them and hoping that they'll be there. Just give them their value. And I'll probably repeat this many many times. If the board is pure, you're not thinking about need where you pick, and then a player like uh, Jason Witten could fall to you in the third round. So
that's that's a basic approach. You don't even think about where you're you're picking, but in the back of your mind there's still that little Christmas wish list that I hope two or three of these guys were there while we're picking. Yeah, David, I always talk about this. I'm cheerleading for players, you know. I mean Tommy draft Tommy, I mean like you know, and I always talk about the fake pin throw that I have when oh that guy went too bad, you know, that kind of thing.
But I'm one of these guys that I'm with you and you know, David, when we were working on this draft, we kind of had an idea that Tristan Hill was going to be this guy just because of the lead up to it. Did you that was kind of where the direction we were going right when? Yeah, I think we've got a pretty good track record of getting chasing these picks, just getting the right names highlighted. Yeah, Like we're not always right, but we can typically sort of
draw it down to a cluster. And I mean, yeah, we were when we were on Layton vander ash super early. Tristan Hill was the same way. Okay, but remember this also too, and Tommy help us on this. We were
thinking about safeties too. Oh yeah, there were a lot of safeties on that board at the time that when we were and you know, there's some people now if you look at what Tristan Hill has done or the lack of what he hasn't done, and he's a young player, let's not throw him into what's happened with Taco and stuff like that, you know, and that's another show for another day right there. But you know, were we the thought about that though? Why not some of those safeties.
Did the safeties have the same consideration as say, what Tristan Hill or was Tristan Hill always going to be that pick? I don't, not necessarily. I believe that we looked at it and we strategized and we said, you know, this is a good player. We like the safeties. Yeah, but with every pick, you look at your board. I mean, you don't know what the other thirty one teams are doing, right, I've seen this happening happen numerous times. There could be
four or five safeties that you like. Yeah, and you'll say to yourself, like me, well, if if we take one of the safeties there, we might not be in a position to draft Tristan Hill in the third round. Also, okay, if we take Tristan Hill in the second, one of these safeties could potentially fall to us in the third. Okay, so the strategy within okay, pick in the round, which sounds a lot like what they did with Taco and the taco Yeah, okay, well then okay, we'll tak me
taught me through the Taco thing. Then, is it felt like that? Okay, everybody's thinking they need a corner. You guys needed a corner, and they we're thinking, oh, Kevin King, you know, guys like that. But all of a sudden, it's like, wait a minute, we can't make these defensive ends stretch, can we I mean that that's and that was in that Taco draft. That's that why Taco probably was drafted here that process. I believe there were two
or three defensive ends the UCLA. I don't call Tack McKinley. Yes, he was one that we were looking atlantic, right right ahead of right ahead of us. But I think what you want to do, I believe this, I've made the mistake as a young scout. You want to leave the emotion out of it. Yeah, and you just want to say, you know, we've got this guy grade at higher than this other player, sure, and value what the scouts do. Yeah,
kind of like with Zach Martin. Okay, they're gonna you're gonna maybe draft Chaser, but he goes then all of a sudden, manzels on the board and you're like going, wait a minute, Jerry, take the emotion out of it. Here. We got Zack Martin's got a grade right up there that's good enough for us to draft. Is that that's a great that's a great example. We were looking at Shazir and Fuller who the Bears took, Yeah, boom, and then Zack Martin sitting there and there was a little
bit of a letdown in the room. And you know, I speak. I said the guys, this guy's a good player. Yeah, and Jack Martin, oh, my guy, we should be very I knew Tony Wise very well. And he spent the training camp ye former former Calgoy line coach, super Bowl line he was. He was a friend the offensive line coach and Notre Dame and he spent fall camp with him. He said, he just told me just taking and he's proven to be that. Yeah, okay, So let me ask you this, Tom, And it's I mean, we talk about
this all the time. The taco The taco thing is the famous example or base. It was like, if you don't get your pass rusher at twenty eight, you're probably not getting him right period, right. And meanwhile, you feel good about the cornerback depth. You could maybe make a similar argument that you know, they're safeties that will be hanging around later. We might not be able to get a defensive tackle that can do what we want later on.
So how do you balance the strategy of the depth of positions in the draft with not reaching because you need something? But I think that's you know, that's a Jerry's call ultimately in the head coach, the scouts presented, the coaches present their information, and then he has to just kind of trust his gut on what he wants to do on that. So I think that's a Jerry
gut call, is what you're saying. I think so. And I think you have to look at um, you know, every It's easy to be the Monday morning quarterback and said, well we should have ran more, thrown more, or this players playing better. But at the time, how we had these players graded. They're all just wadded up right right in there. And you know, Jerry might refer to Will, he might refer to a scout, he might refer to the head coach, Well what do you or or a
position coach, what do you think here on this? And if one or one of the people involved has a strong conviction for the player. Yeah, and a lot of times that you know, Jerry will will make that pick. Okay. Well, let me ask you this though, and my experience of working with you and then Jerry, and I've tried to convey this message to people though, is that And you're
one of those scouts that always spoke up. I remember, I remember you a lot of times and me working on the pro side and you handle the college stuff. I remember it like, man, Tom ain't messing around here. And I always appreciate the fact that you stepped up and would say your piece on that. But did you did you feel like that there were there were in maybe with the Taco or maybe within with Tristan Hill. Was there more of an influence from another Was it
more influence from the coaching side of it? Was it with the scouts? Did the scouts Did you have some scouts that maybe said, well, wait a minute, not not this guy, maybe somebody else. Yes, And that that happens that you never see one player the same way. And like I said earlier, there was a little bit of a split on him, and they didn't say that he wasn't a good player, but at that value, there was maybe some people that said, well, he's going to need
some development, which is shown that he will. I know he's got all the tools to do it. So I'm still rooting for him and banking him to do that. But that's when you have to But I will say this too, is you know you can find safeties, you can find out linebackers. You should find a block and tied end. But this is a Bill Parcells ism that is, if you can set the tone for your team with your offensive and defensive lineman, sure that it get the
other players. It becomes contagious that they they So if you're really strong as your old line and D line. So in a lot of cases, if things are even from comparing a safety to a defensive lineman, you're gonna draft the defensive lineman. Yeah, so would agree with that. Yeah, just as a general rule of thumb. And I and you know it's Tom just mentioned it's it's kind of born out that way, is you know, it hasn't clearly hasn't been a stellar first seven weeks of Tristan Hill's career.
Doesn't mean he's a flop, No, not at all. I was just but the process. When you're picking at fifty eight with no first round pick, you're at the mercy of the board to begin with. But like Tom was saying, do you do you you find yourself? Do you lock in or do you You know that's because all those like you say to me that draft will be about how those safeties played. That's to me. Yeah, that's to me. And I think we all had something different. You know,
I liked I like Taylor Rapp. Yeah, I don't think they liked Taylor Rapp. But you know, and I have a guy right here sitting in that room, but you know he Tommy might like to want Thornehill. Yeah it was that wan Thornhill, one of your guys. See that. See, and I knew that. I knew that because I know what kind of scout he is, you know, yeah, you know when you yeah, we spend enough time together that you know that Tommy will fight if you know, he's
talking about the offensive line or the defensive line. But you're sitting there and also in the room, you're thinking, at wan Thornhill is going to be a damn good player for somebody, and I mean it, And you feel like though that maybe you know we can, we can we pass him by for this guy. See, that's the problem that scouts have. Your your conviction is so strong and you want so bad, but sometimes you have to just let the room, let the room have their their
their pick more and more. You know, what is this? You know, when the spring starts up, will this be the seventh year we've done this or something like that been doing in a while. More and more every year, I learned that the ideal is to draft as purely as possible, and he just said that, yeah, but it's so much easier said than done. Like if something slaps you in the face, you know, uh, Connor mcgovernor, that's
I'm saying. Okay, Connor mcgovernor. It's a great example. But all things being equal, Okay, if a guy with the second round grade falls to you at ninety one, like I said, if it just slaps you in the face and it's so obvious that there's nothing you can do
about it, that's one thing. But when you're stuck with a cluster of players, or you're at the mercy of the board because you're picking late, and you're thinking about what you need and maybe maybe not too much, but you know it's there, it's hard to completely ignore those things. And that's why I think you know, you wind up drafting Taco at twenty eight because you know you can
get your dbs later. That's why you draft Hill because you say, you know, maybe he doesn't have a role from day one, but his potential is so much higher at a position, and that is so much more important. And that I think It colors a lot of the decisions that get made. And that's not just the Cowboys, that's all over the way. What was that a thought? Though? When you draft Hill, you're thinking about Malik Collins maybe not being here. It's glass year of his contract. Does
how much does that come into play? It comes into place some but that that was not brought up, and so that's that was wrong with me. Yeah, behind the scenes, something I might add about scouting, you know, it's more than just watching them in their shorts or in the uniform or pro day in the spring. Yeah. I had a very very good contact at Virginia and you got good contacts all over the country. Well, it was with his name Price and we had coached together UNLV and
he started comparing this kid intangibly. We're talking about this guy, this guy, this guy. And there's no guarantees in any of this. But he had the right DNA and he was a player that he wasn't perfect d But I think that both players, if they fulfill their potential, Hill and Thorne Hill will have very good careers. Yeah. See
that's the thing about it though, is is okay? And then at the end of the day, here I mean, you know, at the end of the show, I want to get into as you watch this football team, what do you think they need? Well, that's just a little tease for the end, and when we get down to it, I want to know, as we watch this team, you know what what you think they need? You know, it
was this is the safety necessary? You know? Yeah? But I mean, I, well, do you agree with me at least in theory time and not like you don't even have to make it specific to the Tristan Hill thing, but in general, and you know it doesn't have to be as specific as you know, MALIEK. Collins is in a contract year. But when you determine the value of a position to your scheme, what you have at that position under contract right now, and then the talent pool, it can be hard to raft as purely as you
would prefer to, no question, Yeah, no question. Now, some a lot of teams that they could care less about the contract. They want to They want to draft the highest rated player available and they feel like because their way of thinking. And I've asked some teams this and they'll you know, their philosophy is this. They said, well, we're really strong, let's say an offensive lineman, and they have a guy that's fell in their lap in the second round. Okay, they said, well, is there any guarantees
that we won't have injuries there this year? Sure? And so they look at it. It's a long drawn out NFL season, so they feel like just if they're getting great value that that it's going to add to the cream of their team. And they take a guy in the second round and he shows that he can be a future starter that can help you win a super Bowl, then they might let a season veteran go, which in turn,
this player signs with another club for big money. Now you're probably going to get a comparis to a pickup there. Go yeah, yeah. Let me ask you this though, Tommy, And Okay, that's Connor McGovern has a second round grade on your board, right basically, I mean that's kind of I mean, you're you're sitting there at ninety and all of a sudden, way we got a second round grade on this guy that could play center or can play guard. Is that is that really how that thought all that
went down on that one? Yes, yes, again. Value and when you can find a guy that has position flexibility that can play one or excuse. You can play two positions, right, you know that's a guy that has a chance to go the game because he can back up to two positions. Okay, how about Tony Pollard? Okay, tell me that the part I had heard that that that Kelvin Moore was completely on board with with Tony Pollard was totally on board. I mean the staff, the scouts, everybody was on board
about the talk about the the the drafting of Tony Pollard. Well, I went to Memphis, I went to the pro day as well. My point on Tony I saw him as a short term quote unquote starter with the twenty plus touches a game. Yeah, but if you had, if you could choosel out the perfect role for him, you would maybe have him catch six passes, carry the ball ten to twelve times, and then return four or five times.
So that's his twenty to twenty two touches. Sure, can you take the part about six receptions and run it over to the coaching wing of this building. Let him know you had it right. Yeah, you had it right. Yeah, yeah you really did there. But okay, we get down into like the and then like the Donovan Wilson's guys like that that Joe Jacksons was that more when you
get We're always talking about traits, what the traits? What was the trade with the with Donovan Wilson, the safety from Texas A and M Well, he was a physical player, you know, a little tight, but he got around the football. You could kind of feel him on tape. His energy. As far as Joe Jackson concern, just a big body that I've seen Rod bring in guys just off the street. Yeah, and when they do his drills, they get better. And I saw Joe is that type of guy that he
would continue to work and would improve within our scheme. Yeah. I think so too. I mean I like now to me, you know, you look at these drafts and then you go to the previous draft before that with the Layton vandersh, Connor Williams, Michael Gallup. Man, you guys knocked that thing out of the park. It was a good draft. Yeah, that thing just seemed to fall just right for you guys though, Didn't it that that draft the way that they all worked out, you know, Layton Vanderish at nineteen,
Connor Williams at fifty, Michael Gallop at eighty one. I mean it just seemed like that that the where the players were on that board, it worked out great for you guys. Yes, and if you remember the two thousand and nine draft, I believe, yeah, it just what we We love players. And then about two or three picks before we were on the clock, that particular player that we really coveted, Yeah, it was selected. So I think
in this process too, you gotta have a little luck. Yeah. Yeah, I've been with you before when I felt like that, I'm like, man, we we got lucky on that one. We really did. Or you know, oh man, that that
was what fortune makes this whole thing so much. I'll tell you what and and I'll say this about this guy before we go to break here and uh we this goes all the way back to Quincy Carter and talking about that, and Tommy made the school call at Georgia, He and Walter Julia and they were adamant about what Quincy Carter was, and they were absolutely right about Quincy Carter,
absolutely right about him. And he was absolutely right about a player named Kendrell Bell that was a linebacker from Georgia that ended up getting and we had a first round grade and didn't take him at the time, you know, and there's there's a great example right there. You got the guy at the right spot. Go take the right player, you know, take that guy and then worry about everything else if you got the grade. He was right about Kendrell Bell, a guy made AFC Rookie of the Year
for the Pittsburgh Steers. Took him a pick after we took Quincy Carter. So sometimes in that war room, you know, you fight, you fight, you fight, and it still doesn't work out. Yeah, you know, that's part of it. That is part of it. That is part of a lot. Okay, when we come back, we're gonna take a little break right here. I'm gonna go through some of these guys.
I'm gonna go through I know, we we'd like to do everything, not just cowboys really, but I want to go through a lot of I've got some great values. I got nothing yet from these guys, happy to have. And then I want to get into some of these positions that we saw last year in the draft and see how these guys are doing and kind of get these guys thoughts on them. You've got the draft show. We'll be right back. While a player can look good on paper, it's one he's out on the field that
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from the s TOBBC Morgan Studios. Brian brought us a here with Thom Siskowski, our newest member of the scouting department, and then David Hellman just a reminder, this is a show. Will we do this for the bye week. When we get back in January, that's when we'll get into full blown coverage. I've looked at about ten guys already, David, good for you, ten guys. Want to see some guys. But but we get back in January, the week before
the Senior Bowl. Uh, Thomas will be back. You'll be back and we'll start getting into some of these players looked over earlier this week or maybe it was last week and the scouting guys for you watching college tape, I was just like, man, take a day off, Nah, it'll be okay. This man next to me, he will not take a day off once we start, once we start grinding. Well yeah, exactly so. But that's excited. So yeah, when we get back into that, uh, that will be
in January. That's one we'll fully start with Twitter on the twenty Those good Things tell Me More is another good segment. I really really like a class all the classics. Okay, I'm gonna talk about this last draft again. I'm a full We're a full, one stop shop right here, Okay, and I'm gonna run off some names here, some guys. I think that as you look at the draft, some great value and you're gonna look at me Dave and you go, who oh yeah. I'm gonna start with Ola Bispcie,
Ola Bibsie Johnson. I was really convinced you weren't going to be able to stump me. But that name is not ringing any Colorado statewide receiver. The Minnesota Vikings took him seventh round, pick two forty seven. He's got thirteen catches for one hundred and thirty four yards and one touchdown, so he's probably got more. He's done more in john seven games than la Quan Treadwill did and exact Minnesota Vikings took him. Calrod State. Now Colrod statements be putting
out some receivers, Tommy, how about this guy? We know this guy, Gardner Mitsche. Oh yeah, Jacksonville took him. I know that one seventy eight. His stats so far one one hundred thirty nine completions out of two hundred and twenty six attempts. One of the stories of the NFL seasons one thousand and six and ninety seven yards, ten touchdowns, two interceptions, doing a great job in Jacksonville. How about Darius Slayton, Tommy from Auburn. You remember him? Yes? Remember him, David?
Don't you loved him? If I remember? I did. He's a fifth round choice by the New York Giants, playing well for them at pick one, seventy one, fourteen receptions, two hundred and seventeen yards, one touchdown. And here's the big one, third round picked by the Washington Redskins. Terry McLaren. Yeah, scary Terry, scary Terry. Tom You've been to Ohio State a bunch. How many Ohio State receivers have you scouted in their day? All the way back to Joey Galloway? Right?
But you know what that that happened sometimes is you know the there's two or three or maybe two of the other guys that are getting all they the attention and the lsity, and there's a guy kind of setting back there and you go to you go to the pro day, and they go, hey, what's wrong with this guy? He can run, he can catch, and then they that's good value there where they took him. Kind of remind I mean, twenty four catches for four hundred nineteen yards
five touchdowns. That young man kind of reminds me. I mean Tony Pollard, obviously it's a different position. Yeah, Darryl Henderson got all the pub at Memphis. Yeah, and obviously pot Tony's a pretty good player himself. Michael Thomas was that way at Ohio State when he win the same I mean, he wasn't a guy that everybody was kind of jumping up and down about right. He was pretty hill he regarded. But I mean you got Devin Smith, you got Zeke, you got Bosa. I mean he was
kind of lost in the belly Marshawn Lattimore. Yeah, he kind of got. He fit what Sean wanted to do. He absolutely, Yeah, absolutely, McLaren really kicked some butt at the senior ball though. I do remember that. Yeah, he was. He was a very good player. Okay, how about guys, how about nothing yet? This is my nothing yet category? Is Silia Farrell? Cleland? Cleland say that we went over it during the break. I didn't. I didn't finetically do that for me. Cleland Farrell, what did I say, ceiling?
I don't know why I said that. Tell them, Tell everybody listening at home where you had him slotted? He was number out of my top one hundred, he was number fifty. And where was he drafted? He was shrafted fourth overall. That that's I mean, I remember it being stunning and fer he's not really up to much. I haven't watched Clempson, right, Tommy, all those all those defensive linemen at Clemson. He's got five tackles with one sack. Yeah, that would be that would be a little disappointed. Right,
But he's played five games. That's a little less than you want from a top five. How about ed Oliver at Buffalo ninth overall, six games, seven tackles, one sack. Buffalo has got a good defense, right, what did you guys? You guys, everybody in that room was really high on ed Oliver. What don't he one of those guys? Was he? Yes? But it was it was made known that look that this guy's not the next coming of that warn't sap No, No, not at all, not at all. And I had little
I liked him. I don't want to say that I didn't, but I had a little bit of concern. Was his size potential? Yes, you know Aaron Donald is a thick yeah, two eighty five ninety This guy if he doesn't take care of himself, he could be down to two fifty if he's not careful. So he had that body, and that was a little bit of a concern. They're playing outdoors in Buffalo, They've got to be concerned about that.
Is it Is it a thing where you can be like too freaky, Like he's too freaky of an athlete, Like you're talking about a defensive tackle who's got the athleticism to like he could maybe play linebacker. Does that work against him at all? Some people have talked about, like a Pittsburgh or another three four team that they pla him as an outside line flush guy, which basically he ended up being like Freeney. Yeah, you know, short circus. It doesn't give the offensive line'm in a big surface
to block off the edge. Yeah, I'm not. I'm not closing the book on him. I bet he's gonna be He's gonna be pretty good. Seven seven tackles, one sack. It's okay, Hey, we see him. Tristan Hill's having a hard time getting nothing yet we've talked about him. How about Rashawn Gary from Michigan. He was a twelfth overall picked by the Packers and four tackles one sack. I'll
tell you this. You can see his athleticism though, like there were I mean, he was out there on some plays against the Cowboys where you can see him moving. I don't know if it's translating yet, but guys, scare you a little bit. Tommy. The athleticism. He I'd like the guy I always said, I said to myself, if we were in a three four, I'd really like him setting the edge and doing some things. Yeah. If I recall Brian, his numbers sacks wise was not overly impressive, right, right,
and he had like maybe two or three. I thought he was a better defensive tackle that you can say that. But Danielle Hunter had two sacks. Yeah, yeah, I don't know. That's a good point. Well, I mean we're always hard on LSU guys. Yeah, yeah, I didn't see. I didn't see that one coming. Daniel Hunter did not. He did not wow me in college. And yeah, clearly that was a mistake. How about this, here's my last one, Chris Lynstrom, they guard from Boston College. That was Atlanta took at
fourteen overall. He's played one game for them this year. Yanks. Oh that they took two. They took two alignment in the first round, did they not? How's the tackle doing? Did you look that up now? I don't think he's doing very well either, Tommy, Tommy D with his good
hairs and a little trouble up there. I think when when he was selected, there was there was there was a bit of wows and eyes got big and we certainly, oh are not having that high without Okay, yeah, I don't think I had him that he was in that sixty range as far as my top one off the top of your head, or there any other stunners for y'all this year where you like everybody just kind of looked at each other. I don't recall anyone necessarily. Let me think here, Chris Lynstrom was one for me when
when Tommy took him at fourteen. I'm tom about Thomas de Mitrof. Yeah, everybody calls him Thomas except I call him Tommy D. Yeah. I guess I haven't answers to it. So he slept on my couch for a month one time. So yeah, it's a little trouble there. That's not that roster's not as good as I thought it was gonna be.
I thought Atlanta was a playoff contender. How about happy to have Okay, happy to have Josh Allen the Kentucky outside linebacker defensive Then Jacksonville took him at seventh overall. He's got fourteen tackles in five sacks. It's a classic case of, like, you know, maybe having a crappy seasons not the end of the world if you have a good roster, because the Jags, the Jags are too good to have been in position and draft him just in
terms of the talent on their roster. But seventh overall a kid from remember how he's a good looking kid. Though good looking kid, long range kind of gets after you. Five sacks already five sacks. Yeah, it's seventh overall. How about this Brian Burns. That's a guy the understood didn't like. I hated Brian did not like him. I sports hated Brian Burns. I don't know the man, but Florida State is Brian Burns. He looked like he looked like a room stick to me. How thin he was. I didn't
think he could I don't think he could hold up. Yeah, way to go, Brian. He gets picked sixteenth overall. I thought he was a better version of Manny Lawson. Oh did you remember that? Yeah, but they both were narrow hip guys. Yeah, but if you if the scheme does not allow you to have take on the offensive lineman all the all the time and just use your speed in space. Yeah, he had a chance. Yeah. Well he got four and a half sacks already, letting tackles Carolina.
Carolina does a good job finding defensive players. Are you sure do man I need scout at Carolina? Maybe how about this one? At one twenty four, the Oakland Raiders take Josh Jacobs, nice player, one hundred and nine carries for five hundred and fifty four yards, four touchdown. You're doing your scout thing. He was the twenty fourth pick in the first round one twenty four. Makes it sound like he was the one tall pick. Tommy knew what I was talking about. Sitting here, scouts, I've been we
were seven years right. Here's the thing is, not everybody listening is fluent in scout, you know, right, help you know there's some people that are listening right now that are fluent in scouting. There are, but we're trying to appeal to all demos here. We are so thank you for listening. Thanks right, pick twenty four, Pick twenty four, the first round, first back off you have to work with Tommy. Get ready, get ready. This is gonna be
a whole year for you. Get first back off the board, if I remember, right, absolutely, And he's having himself a nice little time. Hundred and nine carries for five hundred and fifty four yards, four touchdowns. Remember I saw somebody talking about this on Twitter today, like everybody was all concerned about like, oh, he he didn't play that much at Alabama. Yeah, I guess what that means. He's fresh, Yeah,
the really good Yeah, I'm players. Okay, remember all those tight ends Tommy that we had to I just had to try to sort out with t. J. Hawkerson, Noah Fant and IRB. Smith Junior. I'm bummed out. Isn't no offense not doing very well? Well, let me just read you the numbers. Okay, Hawkinson went eighth overall better better? Yeah, eighteen catches for two hundred nineteen yards, two touchdowns. Noah Fan at Denver went there and that at twenty fifteen
catches for one hundred fifty nine yards one touchdown. All right? And IRV Smith with the Minnesota in the second round at the number fifty. Twelve catches, one hundred and fifty three yards, no touchdowns. That's are all pretty even numbers right there for all those guys. And it so you're telling me maybe that the guy at eight is the same as the guy at fifty. I want to say Howkinson has had some injuries. I know he like he can cuss himself against the Chiefs and I had to
leave that game. So still eighteen catches. I thought he was gonna catch. Didn't you think? How did you how did you feel about how did you have those guys? Did you? Well? Hawkinson was a guy you could see the blocking was that the head coach came from New England. Well, we can playhim at tight end, we can play him at fullback, we can play him at h wee can. So there's a lot of things. So I think that once they settle in what his role is, I think he's gonna have a nice career. Yes, he's he he
can block and he can catch. You should have had three touchdowns. I was watching the game there. They dropped one in the flat, would have walked into sport. He dropped it. Oh, can't have that nope, but no Ah Fan. He was another that those Iowa tight ends were pretty impressed. That Tape was impressed to watch those two if I like, if you could go back, obviously everybody would rather have
Amari Cooper than pick twenty seven. But if the Cowboys had had a pick in the first round, fant is right up at the top of who I would have wanted him to draft. So I hope that pans out for the Broncos because he was definitely a pet cat to the point where once he I don't remember his numbers at the combine, but once he put up his combine workouts, I was like, well, this is that. There's no chance he's a freak his issues. He's basically right
now a big receiver. Yeah, he needs to get stronger, yeah, but as far as just pure athletic, a billion speed, if he puts it all together, I think he could have a nice career at that twenty seventh pick. If you had that twenty seventh pick, who would you have taken? Do you remember who you who? On that board you had? Was that Abraham went to the Abraham Abram my second
who was available there? I'll tell you, I'll tell you Tom, I tell you right there, yeah, because that was that was after that was Abraham Jonathan Abram went at twenty seven. Montez Sweat went a pick before l J. Collier, who I know y'all liked win at twenty nine. DeAndre Baker, DeAndre Baker, the Georgia Corner Byron Murphy, Deebo Samuel my pet cat. Yeah, that was Dave's pet cat. Is there somebody you liked? Would you've taken? What did the staff
think about? What the staff that you guys brought, you brought Abram in? Didn't everybody like him? They did, He's got a little brashes into consideration. Yes, I think so. But just uh, I can tell about your action. You're not too happy about this, No, I just uh yeah, I'm trying to think of the other players and trying to tide all together. But I was usually when you when you don't have a pick and it's your turn,
you kind of see who's on the board. I mean, you couldn't have you couldn't have made a better trade than the one you made. No way, No, there's no way, there's there was in twenty seven players that were better than that that guy you took but if I'm if if we're sitting there at a twenty seven we had that pick and we're sitting there scratching our head. Normally one guy's surfaces that everyone just jumps up and or the majority in the room jump up and say, we
gotta take this guy. But no one does that with one of the five. That's when you hope the phone rings so that you can get out of the back up maybe ten spots, pick up a third or a bottom of the second, and then you're hoping one of those five would be there with that pick. So what happened with Travis Frederick or did you guys get stuck on that? No? I mean, well, I don't know if we were really truly targeting him. Again, Dave, what you
said earlier, the guy just was there. Yeah, but you guys, I mean, you guys blew the hatches and went to the bottom of the oceans, yes, to get that to get that thing, and we had it. That's about we took him at thirty one, I believe. Yeah, And uh, that's there were a couple of the bottom of the first round grades and second round grades. Yeah, he was the territory. Everybody had him in the third round grade, but the team that drafted him. Yeah, that just shows
you right there. So that's why these are all different. How about all these wide receivers in this draft. Here's a name I could pronounce, Dave AJ Brown. There you go. Tennessee took two fifty one, second round, fifty first pick. Excuse me, you're getting better. I look this up. Some of these guys are are doing all right for themselves, Like Hollywood Brown isn't He's not lighting the world on fire. Yeah, but he's part of that Baltimore offense. A J. Brown's
playing well. Deebo has been hurt unfortunately. I I picked out then. Uh, Michael Hardman, the Georgia kid, Micole. I believe Icole. It's okay, it's not your Nicole, but Nicole Hardman. Micole Hardman, I think I saw a name written on your card. I'm gonna I'm gonna talk about the big stiff guy in Seattle, DK met Keff. Yeah, what about the big stiff guy. He's kind of proven some people wrong and twenty catches for three hundred and eighty nine
yards two touchdowns. What about him, Tommy, he was so stiff, wasn't he? But he was stiff and wasn't a blazer. But he's one of these guys that when he came out of the route, he was so big he was open even when he was covered. Yeah, And when you see a guy like that, you want to ask yourself, can he make the play the contested catch? Yeah, when the guys are hanging all over him, and who cares how prudy it is. If he's moving the chains, that's what you want. Yeah, so you liked you sound like
you liked the guy. I liked him a little bit. He's averaging twenty yards per catch. And if that's if that's the scouting report. If you need a guy that can throw him open or get it to him even when he's not wide open, Russell Wilson's your guys. Russell Wilson's that guy all right. Now, how about the last group I saved here? The quarterbacks ranked these guys for me, Kyler Murray, Daniel Jones, and Dwayne Haskins. Well, I haven't seen enough of Haskins to have an dependent Yeah, he's
only been in one game. He was nine of seventeen, four hundred and seven yards, three interceptions. Actually, a really terrible situation. That's really fitting timing because you know, the Cowboys played at night the other day, so I was sitting around in my apartment with nothing else to do, and the Cardinals were playing the Giants. Yeah, I'm pretty impressed by Kyler Murray. Not that I'm surprised. I mean, he went number one overall, but they've won three games
in a row out there. Yeah, they're I think they're three, three and one. Watch this I'm about to get here's the guy. It's an old school scout sitting next to me, and he's gonna tell me about this guy that's five nine and a half and there's no way he should have gone one overall? Am I right about that? I wasn't totally shocked, But yet the game has changed with
this zone. Great stuff, And I think that if you and they basically cut the wrist and said we're gonna hire Kingsbury and we're gonna put this in and we're gonna you have to either commit to it or not. And they have and well, we played them in preseason. If you're remember he stood in the pocket and we got a couple of balls. Not but if you remember the play action passed off the zone read. I used to call it the dash series with Eisman. Sure it
was almost like a semi roll. Well, now they're they're gap protecting and the windows are open for him now to see down the field to make the throw. So he's gonna have to They're gonna have to create stuff to move him around in the pocket to ulize his feet. But his arm strength is good and his accuracy is very good. Yeah, that's pretty bad when you watch that tape. That was pretty wild tape, wasn't it. Hell Yeah, yeah, yeah,
I enjoyed watching. And now, I mean, you know, that's just with again, with the way the game's changed, that's just smart football. Da Dak doesn't need that from a hype perspective, but I think they could do more of that with Dak. Move the pocket. He's so good throwing on the move left. I've never seen a guy throw to the left as well as he does. They don't, They don't design enough stuff for him to take advantage of that. In my opinion, where the game has changed
is defenses. Now they have to account for him as a runner. Right if things break down, he runs and everyone could be covered in the secondary, and then he takes off and runs for fifteen yards and moves the chains. So it's a different it's a different approach if you're playing a last year and Eli Manning or playing Kyler Murray this year. Yeah, how about Daniel Jones from Duke I'm not I applaud I applauded Dave, Dave Gettleman. You're just I'm in trouble. Yeah, I know him. He's a
buddy of mine, Dave get him. I applaud them for playing him, for go ahead and making this journey with Daniel Jones. I mean, what other choice do you have. I wouldn't play that guy. I mean, I mean I wouldn't play Eli Manning. Why not just go ahead and play Daniel Jones. They did the right thing, which I mean, and Daniel Jones might turn out to be a stud. He's had moments. I know he's he's played well more often than he's played poorly since they put him in.
But like, if you're in this position now, why didn't you just draft a quarterback last year instead of trying to do this sa Quan thing? I don't know, Man, I like Saquon Barkley for this guy. I think sae Quon Barkley helps this guy. He does, but like, don't you need to start that start that clock over? I mean, now, say Quan's already another year into his deal. G Okay, with what they did with the Giants drafted in the back, I was when I see people pass on quarterbacks, we
can't get in their heads. We don't know what they're thinking. They might not have thought that there was a player where they were selecting that deserved to be taken that high. Yeah, and you know Daniel Jones, if he's at maybe Ohio State or an Oklahoma, people might be doing it on the guy's a good athlete. Yeah, he definitely is that. And what I liked about him, I didn't think that he had elite arm strength, but I thought his timing and anticipation was very very good, very good. Okay, when
we come back, thanks for everybody's thoughts on that. We just kind of took a look back. When we come back here in the SBbc Mortgagees with the Draft Show, we're going to take a look at this football team and what direction do we think they need to go get draft help. When we get going on this in January, we'll be right back your new apartment's big. Such a great deal. Yeah, that's okay, just okay. What's not right about the subway? Well, I bet you don't even notice
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travel like a pro. Visit Cowboys Travel dot com to book your travel package today. This is the Dallas Cowboys dot Com Draft Show. We're back here at the SWBC Mortgage Studios. Brian brought us toom Siskowski, David Hellman. Uh again just kind of this is our annual uh bye week uh draft show which we kind of take a look back, which we had the last couple of times. Now I want to take a little bit of a
look forward as we've watched these games, gentlemen. Uh, you know through now the seven games that we've seen, we're starting you get are you getting an idea, David, of a position, an area something you might need to focus on come draft time that that you're saying, well, they need to do a little bit better here, or a little bit better or hey they're okay, there is there is there an area you're kind of looking at that
you kind of feel that way. Yeah. I thought about it, you know, knowing we were going to do this show, and I came to the I don't know you could call it concerning or puzzling conclusion that it's a lot of the same needs is last year. Yeah, I think this team could still stand to upgrade it's safety talent. Defensive tackle is still probably an issue. Even if Tristan Hill comes into his own like we want him to. MALIEK Collins is in a contract year, Tyrone Crawford unfortunately
is dealing with a pretty serious injury. Christian Covington is more of a bridge player. Antoine Woods is an under contract right now. So that's all stuff you gotta worry about. Tight End, Jason Witten's playing very well, but again, you know, if you're thinking four or five years in the future, how long can you count on that? And then you know, offensive tackle, yeah, it's a little it's a little less because Lyle Collins is under contract now and he has
looked fantastic. But you have to think about your left tack one law. I mean in the sense that how long can Tyron Smith continue to take this kind of beating and still play at a high level. Absolutely, absolutely, it's something you need to think about. I mean that doesn't necessarily mean it's got to be your first round pick, but it's probably time, if it wasn't already, to at least sort of have that in the back of your mind that you know, how long can even the toughest
guy in the world continue to accumulate injuries? As you went through those, give me the priority of the number like the probably one, two or three right now. I mean, for me, it's safety and has been for two or three years. Okay, they just haven't had a genuine bona fide consistent More about Woods or is it more about Heath. I think it's more about Heath, but Xavier Woods is he's been He's been nice, But just in general, you haven't had that playmaking talent at that position. I guess
I would. I mean Heath specifically, though, yeah, Tom me Well, from my perspective, I always looked at it who can dominate a game? Who can who can affect the game? I'll use that. And obviously your left tackle is critical. You got to protect your quarterback. But a position people will play four whiteouts. You get a couple of guys hurt, and they'll just sit there and just pick you apart. I would like to see us draft a bona fide corner.
That's a really good, sneaky answer, because you of those guys, if you're if you're covering people, the offensive lineman can only protect so long and then it's going to break down to Marcus Lawrence. We got other guys that and the way Rod coaches them that they're they're gonna bring the heat. But if you are letting guys run free, I don't you know, that there are times I'll see Brady releases the ball so quickly that you the offensive lineman just basically just mirrors the guy for a second
and the balls out. But so I think a bona fide corner that could just you know, shut a guy down, that could play the inside and the nickel play outside has length with what Chris Rashard wants. I don't think that you can ever have in today's football enough corners, not just corners, but corners that can cover. Yeah, okay, Tommy, let me ask you this though, and we have this discussion on our show. I know, I'm talking Cowboys. We did this morning. You guys drafted Jordan Lewis before Chris
Rashard got here. Yes, okay, what did you see in Jordan Lewis that made you guys hit pick him in Because if he wouldn't have had, I think his legal issues, I think I think he would have gone higher than the third round myself. That yes, okay, okay, what did you see in Jordan Lewis? And then now and then walk me through why do we not see him playing more? Well, that's obviously the coaches see it. A lot of it is philosophy I know Chris is always like bigger guys.
But what I remember about Jordan, he always got his hands on a lot of balls. Yeah, you could, you could just you could fill his energy. Yeah, if he didn't get the interception, he stripped, he'll tackle. The only thing I'm missing with this guy is he's not six two. Yeah, he's He's got the rest of it. So if we could find a six to Jordan Lewis, we've got a great football. See that's what that's That's why I don't
you know, And I'm okay, Anthony Brown, I understand. But what Tommy described as the type of corner I want. I want somebody's out there that's competitive and tough and it you know, and and it means something to him. And say, I mean you watch him play, he get when he gets beat, he comes back. He's he's stronger mentally. He's a strong guy mentally. Absolutely. But that's interesting, though, you said about the cornerback spot, because I think that's
that's true. We actually had a really interesting talk on the break today about you know, I was saying I would love for the front office to get these deals done with Dak and Amari so that they can franchise Byron Jones because you don't want him going anywhere in the short term, because to Tom's point, you need talented cover corners. You need guys that can do that. At the same time, you don't know what the future holds for Byron. Somehow, Jordan and Cheetah are already closer to
the end of their deals than the beginning. Yeah, they're about to. I mean they're halfway through their third season, so you can't count on them being here in long term. Anthony Brown's a free agent in the spring. I would like to franchise Byron and have him as a placeholder. And then yeah, like I wouldn't be shocked at all if the Cowboys spend a premium pick on a corner next year, first, second, or third round. You're thinking about defensive tackle like Davis or tied in for sure? Are
you thinking about any of those other positions? I think you never. You're still rooting for Hill to be that guy. Sure, but just the way we coach them and we run them in waves, and I think, I don't know if it's his, it would be as critical as I see maybe the corner position or hoping that Tyrn is Okay, right, you've got to protect your quarterback. There's teams out there that the Indiana appas Colds as an example, they kind of piggybacked off what we did. Sure, and they fix
their offensive line. Unfortunately it was about two years too late. Yeah, and Luck was already beat up and chose to retire. But I just I think that offensive line is critical, and you've got to find guys that can that can cover people. And I don't think you ever pass up a guy who can affect the quarterback as a pass rusher. Sure ever, Yeah, and I think, well that's and you know,
somebody mentioned talking about the franchise tag. I didn't even think about it, but sounding I mean, you got to figure out something to do with Robert Quinn because he's, you know, hell of a football player who's not under contract next year, so something to consider. I don't know that I would want to franchise a thirty something year old difference Robert after we finish eight games. Compare the first eight to the to the last eight. That's fair because I think a lot of times you'll see guys
you think he's gonna get war down Tommy. I don't know that, but I just know that. You remember how we used to do the quarterly report. Yeah, absolutely, See, a player played really good the first quarter. Ye, by the third and fourth quarter you realize, all right, he's really played the first quarter, which is the first four games. Yeah, basically off of experience and savvy. But his arrows going down, he's descending. Yeah, as a player, you gotta be real careful. Yeah,
that's no, that's a really good point. And people have pointed out in the past. You know when DeMarcus hit fifteen sacks a couple of years ago. I mean, the vast majority of that production came in the first seven eight games of the season. Still still gooda a lot of double teams and stuff, they both are, which to go back to the point, you'd love to have some help on the interior with that kind of command attention
of its own. Okay, Tommy, this is gonna sound I mean I spoth to you guys here in the last five minutes. So how difficult, though will it be? If in fact, though that Jason Garrett, maybe he doesn't get extend did and then now you have to really start all over again. I mean you've worked through, but I mean he's been here for ten years. Now, how does that affect a scout and how does it affect a scout on the road right now, that might be thinking, okay, if we don't win enough games, or am I doing?
Am I scouting this guy with the thought of okay, yeah he's going to be there? Or am I scouting this guy? Well? Now we might not like this guy? You know, how does how do you deal with that on the road and how would you do with that as a director like you were, well as a scout. Jason Garrett, the head coach, Now you you grade the
player how you think he fits in the scheme. Now, if there is a coaching change and you have a new head coach and there's a different philosophy, we would always call in the coaches and they would basically clinic us scouts and say, this is what I'm looking for in a tight end to guard a center, a three technique, a safety, you know, number one safety, the down guy. He's got to be able, a great tackler. We wanting
basically an extension of the linebackers using terms like that. Right, So, but you don't touch your grades now and then once if there is a change and a philosophy of different philosophies in place. Then you go back after the spring
workouts and you tweak your grades accordingly to fit the scheme. Okay, so which I mean, and I've never scouted, but that sounds like what I would expect is like, right now, just go find good football players, right, and so you can't worry about the coach in his situation right now, you just got to go out there and evaluate Alabama football player. And then, which we always joke on this show, like right around mid to late March, the narratives kind
of start changing when the coaches get involved. Anyway, right, the coaches finally sit down and start looking at guys and they're like, oh, no, no no, no, we don't want this guy. We want this guy. It happens every year, and so maybe it's Jason Garrett and his staff, or maybe it's another one, but I'm sure it'll be the same way. We'll shoot, we're talking about Jordan Lewis. Maybe in the spring, George Lewis could be the prized pet
cat of whoever's coaching him. See. I was always in house doing pro personnel stuff, so my my thing's never changed. But I always wondered to be with a college scouting when we when you make a coaching change, yeah, you know when you make that coaching change, and you know it is it? How different is I mean, what's the mindset? Mean Tommy goes on the road two hundred days a year and you're just thinking, okay, man, the team's not winning enough games. We might be switching coaches. Am I
scouting the right guys? You know? I mean you have to kind of put that in the back of your mind and say, oh, I just got to keep finding players. That's all I have to do. What you have to do, Yeah, which you think about it. How many guys get drafted two hundred and fifty six? Yeah, and the full pool, I mean, I know it's it's more than a thousand, but like the realistic choices you're probably talking about like
five hundred guys. Yeah. So you're gonna do all the same scouting and find all the same players, and then maybe your focus shifts depending on who the coaches are, but it's still the same talent pool. You still got
to go identify the guys. Yeah. But sometimes remember with ourselves when he came in, I mean we went from a four three team to a three to four team, and yeah, but he gave his time to you know, he you know, Mike Zimmer had to call a four three, kept calling for three and then he switched it to a three to four and we didn't have the personnel
to do it. And you worry about that of getting getting a good start for your team, you know, if you have to change over a bunch of personnel, you know, you want to give yourself the best chance to have success. And maybe that's you know, if you if you can't flip it fast enough that you he kind of hurt yourself that way. I think fortunately for the Cowboys, there's enough cornerstone pieces here that are kind of scheme independent, right.
I mean, I'm thinking offense more than anything, but defense too, I wanted to add I hadn't thought about that a ton. Yeah, I wonder if you know, because to me, I think the more of the changes we've talked about what we said, corner, safety, defensive tackle, I mean, we're thinking about pieces of the defense. But with with the money you've committed to some of these guys, yeah, that's probably going to dictate what you do,
right right. I don't know if it's a good idea to try to turn into Marcus Lawrence into a three four linebacker or you know, something like that. So I think it'll I think it'll sort itself out. I don't think that's a huge concern. Yeah. I like what you guys are talking about with the needs though that. I like the cornerback need though too. It's a sneaky one. It is a very sneak say this. The value of Jordan and Anthony Brown is this. I always said, Brian,
I've told you this before. I see a corner as a starter. Yeah, teams started to run the ball in first down. At second and eight, you're in nickel. I didn't know what the numbers were last year, but two years ago in seventeen, we were in nickel sixty three percent of the time. YEP, So I counted that. So if you see a real shifty, quick slot guy, well then you want to insert Jordan Lewis in the game. But if it's a taller guy that tries to win more with his length, now Jordan's going to compete. But
maybe Anthony Brown's a guy. So I think it gives you two options flexibility, flexibility because people will put different types of players in the slot to try to exploit your team. Absolutely. Thank you for coming along in this journey, my friend. It's been fun. We'll look forward to having you here in January day. Thank you for everything too. That is all the time. There's trust me. I'll be here before you know it, right. Yeah, again, thanks everybody.
Thanks to Tom Siskowski for our newest member of our skying department. Enjoyed it. David Hellman, I want to thank Kayden Gates and also William Boykins for what they've done. Also has always wanted to thank ed Kayhill Kate Garrison for what the contributions they made to the show for so many years. We appreciate you guys as well. We'll be back here in January, the week before the Senior Bowl.
Promise you we will get into a lot of players and we will find a way to it once again investigate and educate you as fans of the NFL Draft. For again, from my guys Toom Skowski, David Hilman, I'm Brian Bross. Take care. We'll see in January. This has been a production of Dallas Cowboys dot Com and the Dallas Cowboys Football Club.