Draft Show: Trusting The Tape More This Year?

new Thursday edition. We're glad you're along with us here on Dallas Cowboys dot Com. Kyle Yeoman's alongside Dame Brugler, Jeff Cavanaugh, and the great Kevin kat Turner as always here on this Thursday. Guys were starting to get close. We talked about it on Tuesday with the other group of guys. But the combine now should be quote unquote

in the rear view mirror. But there's still a lot of information gathering to be done because protas are on the horizon, Dane, and it continues to be an offseason and a draft process really unlike any other. Yeah, that continues. We had the combine list come out this week, which is interesting because it means not quite as much this

year without having a combine. Now you know it'll mean something because you know, a you in terms of the medicals, that's that's something that will be funneled through the process and then you know, be it gives us a better idea of some of the players that are a lot of NFL teams are looking at and some of the players that maybe they're are not very high on. UM. And you know, we have around thirty uh non combine guys get drafted every year, and then it'll probably happen

this year even though it is a little different. Um. But it's just it's just everything's unprecedented. And as we kind of work our way through, we got Pro days gonna be starting up here um next week, um, and those gonna run all the way through April, and you know, just talking to people around the league how it's gonna work, it's just it's really interesting. They're gonna kind of break

it up in the regions. Um, and just with how the scouts are gonna travel to these pro days, just really interesting as they try to navigate through all this. So um, you know, we're still gonna get all the height, weight, speed,

We're still gonna get all the agility numbers. Uh, you know, and it's it's gonna be weird because we're gonna be hearing a lot of numbers coming out of uh, you know, workout facilities too, and you know, it's some of them are probably are pretty close, some of them are probably bogus, and so you know, hopefully these guys choose to run at the pro day and don't just rely on what they are what they're doing at their facilities. So just

a really really interesting part of this weird draft process. Jeff, how tough do you think it is to kind of balance those two because in the past, we've had kind of that easy comparison between these players and sometimes even getting to see them back to back and getting to see these different workouts, and then all of a sudden, you don't have that and you have to go by region, you have to break it up across the country. And now it's tougher on these scouting departments to really kind

of compare guys, especially whenever it comes to the same position. Yeah, and I think the only tough part is that it's not as standardized because it's not all at the same place on all the same things. And maybe if you're talking about electronics and lasers, teams are going to be

comfortable with that anyway. But I've seen numbers that are coming out of these the workout facilities where guys are training, and I just kind of grant, like, everybody's super fast, everybody's incredible, and I'm just like, all right, yeah, okay, we get handheld timers that are going real well for you guys. So yeah, I think it's I think the

challenges that it's no longer going to be. I mean, I guess like dating, it's still gonna be standardized, right, Like, they're not gonna be hand timing at the like look scouts will, But we're gonna get standardized numbers off of off of a lasers, aren't we. I mean, I don't know, because they're not gonna be able to do standardized you know, lasers at every single pro day. It's just not feasible. And so for just continuity purposes, are they going to

do hand times? Probably? I mean a lot of teams they use hand times anyways, even with the combine, they'll you know, just and they do that so they can have apples to apples comparisons with how they time at pro days. So h you know, I don't, I don't. I don't feel really, I'm not really confident that we're gonna have, you know, the standardized part of the process. Katy, Do you think it's more of a Trust the Tape type of year than any that we've seen so far. Yeah.

I mean my friends Dane and Jeff used to do a podcast it was very popular called Trust the Tape. And there's a guy Why I asked you that question. Yeah, Like there's a reason that podcast wasn't called Trust the Pro Day or Trust the Calm Dine or Trust his names were taken. Those were all taken. Trust the milk in my fridge after the expiration day. There's a reason they didn't entitle it. That's it's Trust the Tape. I think the biggest challenge comes to your holdouts more than

I know. These numbers are important and things like that, but I think when we start talking about people who didn't play in twenty twenty, how are you convinced that nothing changed from who they were in twenty nineteen. Hey, that's what the challenge is. And also I think my questions you see all these things like, um, okay, this prospect as he's got a zoom meeting with the Colts

and the Jaguars or whatever. It's like these play get knocked if the if the players you can't really hear them very well on their zoom, like they have a bad zoom set up. Are you knocked in the prospect because I think if you have a lot of patience for that, if you Wi Fi can't pick him. What's that poster on his wall behind him? Oh yeah, cross him up the list. He's out. Yeah no, but he didn't wear a suit to the to the zoom interview.

It's not going to happen. Um. With all of this being said, though, I mean, there's so many different factors that go into it anyways, and I feel like we've always talked about it on this show previously. But it's all going to verify what you've seen on tape. It's all going to kind of supplement what you have on tape. So nobody's ever going to, like, like KG just said, trust the combine and trust the protas and things of the sort. So that's the positive thing about it all.

And even with the opt outs, it'll be tougher, but these the studying is still going on. But Dane, you brought up a really fun thing in our in our group message throughout the weekend. I kind of want to hit this in the first segment, and then in the third segment we're gonna hit some offensive lineman because offensive line is kind of an undersung position in this class, and I think we definitely need to talk about it,

especially if you're the Cowboys with an offensive tackle. And maybe some later rounds to try ensure up some depth. But I want to talk about a roundtable segment that you had an idea of, and it has to do with three different things. It's the favorite player in the class of study, prospect evaluation in this class that gives the most trouble to everybody, and then your favorite player comp And I think this will be fun because I

know all of these are different. But Dan, since you came up with the idea, I'll let you go first, and then I'll go with Kat next, and then I'll round it out after Jeff. But who is your favorite player in this class to study? So far? It's hard to name just one. I think Zach Wilson. I've been a big Zach Wilson fan since the fall. Just his ability off platform to make those spontaneous decisions and to be naturally accurate on the move. It's just it's so impressive,

makes things happen. So Zach Wilson would definitely qualify Kyle Pitts. I mean, I don't know that I could have an answer, you know, for this and not mentioned Kyle Pitts with just he's he's a cheek coat. You know. It's just watching him make plays over defensive backs, watching him separate, watching him just you know, be a boss out there, is just it's just a lot of fun. So those two guys immediately come to mind. Just talking about my

favorite guys the study so far this year. Yeah, I mean, I think just to throw out some different names because those are definitely fun guys. Obviously, Coromla from Notre Dame is a lot of fun, just the way he flies around.

I want to just have a little fun. I want to throw a running back in there, like Kenneth Gainwell of Memphis was a lot of fun and just a number of ways he was used, especially on the rare occasion that they would line him out if the X wide receiver and throwing the ball, but like get little things like oh, here's a wheel route. It was just the way they used him a lot. Was fun to watch it. And another one, I'll say, I'm just going to the offensive line. I'm a big Deontay Brown fan.

Offensive guard, Like, if you wanna talk about just snapping the ball and then beating the crap out of the guy in front of you, I kind of like the way Deontay Brown rolls, like I kind of want him in my posse, to be honest, Like, have you ever called them all three hundred and sixty five pounds of him? Yeah, I think he's a good guy to have on your side. Let's just put it that way. So I'm a big Deontae Brown fan. He watched his film was a lot

of fun. Deef Our Darius Washington, sweet sweet art Darius Washington the best safety in this draft class. Who's gonna get picked? Who knows? Where? Is he gonna be picked in the fourth round even though he's the best because he's five foot eight, I think that's possible. And then my other guy would be Divine Diablo because he's got the best name in the class and he talks about

him but he's good on tape. He's just a two hundred and almost thirty pounds safety, so I think that throws people off, but I think he's a He's a really good player, whether he's going to be a linebacker or a safety at the next level. So I'm going to safeties Sweet Sweet or Darius Washington aka Safety one and Divine Diablo da quickly before we move on. I want to hear your thoughts on Divine Diablo as well, because I liked him going into the Senior Bowl. He

was one of my players to watch. Yeah, I mean, he's a good player. I think he's probably early Day three guy for me in terms of just where I see him. He is a little bit of a tweener, you know, a linebacker safety, But yeah, he runs well. He's a former wide receiver. That's that's what he was when he arrived at Blacksburg, So you see that at

times with his ability to play the ball. I just I don't know that he is enough juice to hold up in man coverage or even to make plays on you know, passing lanes and own so I don't I'm not one hundred percent sure what I'm doing with him. Uh, you know, on base defense. But I think he's gonna survive on special teams and think he's just a really quality player that can round up my roster. I'm just

not sure what's his ceiling for me. So that's why I have more of an early fourth, fifth, sixth somewhere early day three on him. So I've got a really easy answer for my favorite player to watch, And it was just because a lot of people maybe forgot just how dominant he was because twenty opt out. No, it wasn't Jaylen Darden. I'm not gonna say that, I promise I thought about saying it. Jamar Chase Lsu. How about

that wide receiver. I mean, the fact that he was able to dominate NFL caliber corners the way that he was as a redshirt sophomore just was unbelievable to me. And then I was really sad when he opted out, because I mean it allowed guys like Davante Smith and Jalen Waddle to kind of take over. I mean, even like another opt out in Rashi Bateman who came back and then opted out again. I mean, they were the

ones that kind of took over college football. But I think the year that jamar Ches would have had for LSU would have been comparable to any of those, even without Joe Burrow at quarterback, because I think he's just a fantastic player overall, so I think he would probably be my favorite. Now reversing the order a little bit here, Jeff, who was the toughest player for you to tab this year in the draft class? Oh, that is a great question. Some of us don't prep as well for these segments

as others. So I'm currently looking at my list of players. Toughest guy andre Cisco, Syracuse safety, Okay, because I know there's people that like him, and I know that in theory he's hyper athletic, and I know that he had a ton of interceptions. But then I watched his tape and I don't think I've seen a safety give up more big plays than andre Cisco. So I don't know, is somebody going to pick him in the top fifty because he's an athletic guy with a history of creating turnovers?

Or do you just say, guys, I don't want him because the number of and this is run plays, pass plays underneath deep like andre Cisco's tape. I just kept typing, You're the last line of defense. What are you doing? So I'll say, Andre Cisco, who I'm trusting the tape and i put him in the fourth or fifth round, and I'm sure he's going to go higher than that,

but it happens. Plus he's coming off the acl which is another you know, obviously that doesn't that's not as damning as you know, maybe fifteen years ago, but still every every knee responds differently. So just something else that is important for Cisco's evaluation. I mean, I think you you got him nailed. I think just in terms of, yeah, he'll he'll make big plays, but he gets up big plays, and so I think that's more of a style thing, more of a preference, you know, And what do you want?

You know, what are you looking for in your safety? A guy that is a little feast or famine, or you want a more conservative player. You know, I was watching a guy last night, Kayden Stearns, the Texas safety that he's the exact opposite. He does not make a lot of big plays, but he also doesn't give up a ton of big plays either, because he's just so conservative. And it's just you know, I don't I don't know that that's my style either as a safety. So it's

just an interesting juxtaposition between those two guys. Tats. Yeah. I mean for me, there's there's quite a few names, but one I would only want to throw out is Bobby Brown, the defensive vineman from Texas A and M. Because you know, you're watching it and when you see the flashes, you go wow, and then you go why doesn't that happen more often? And there are plays when, quite frankly, it just looks like he's not trying hard. And I don't know if that's the case. Maybe he's tired,

maybe he was banged up, those types of things. But Bobby Brown was a very up and down evaluation for me. And when you're talking about putting a guy in your top one hundred or or you know, maybe trying to get this guy to be a Day two pick, you know, I'm not sure Bobby Brown was consistent enough for me to take him on, you know, the third round. So I mean, that's there's a there's a lot there to like. I would definitely consider him in that third or fourth

round range. But Bobby Brown was an evaluate It was a frustrating watch. I guess I'll put it was very up and down. Dang. Uh So I've got a few Um that's uh. I mean for those young evaluators out there, I mean, let this segment kind of be a lesson. You know, don't get discourage when you watch a player and you're just like, I don't know what to do

with him, because it's okay. That happens a lot. Um. Some guys are just confusing and it's just gonna take a lot more work and homework to figure him out. Like for me, Anthony Schwartz, is that guy from Auburn, UM. This is one of the fastest humans in this country. Um. He in high school you ran a ten point zero seven in one hundred meters, Jeff? Is that fast? I mean yeah, you would think he would be on pace to be running in the Olympics in a year or two.

That was his goal. I mean he ran at Auburn, UM. You know, he he was a two sport athlete at Auburn. He set a few sec records. I think he was sixty five nine in the sixty meters. Um. I mean, the guy can fly, there's just no doubt about it. But just real quick Dane. Like when you see high school guys, and they're talking about the fastest guys in the country in football. You're gonna see like ten four, ten five. Yeah, that's that's blazing. That flying ten o

seven is stupid. It's it's ridiculous. Uh uh. He won the silver medal and the hundred meters at the World Championships as a senior in high school in Finland. Um and just I mean, this guy is just ridiculous. Uh and uh, just that. And it translates to the football field,

but it translates speed wise, but not big play wise. Um. And so a guy with that type of speed, you would expect all these these big plays, either on as a return man or you know, the just underneath plays that he's able to stretch out a stride and you know, take eighty yards or just winning deep. But looking at his as his film, it was just a lot of you know, a lot of feast or famine. I mean he was looking at I just blame well And that's exactly that's part of it. That's part of it too.

So you know, looking at his his his tape of his one hundred and seventeen catches, only nine point four percent of them resulted in a play twenty five yards or more. I mean, that's just that's not the that's not the percentage the odds that you want to see from a player at this type of speed. But yes, you factor in he's a young player who uh you know,

was also a track athlete at Auburn. So in the offseason, he's not training for football, he's not working out with football, he's training with track and obviously two different sports with two different uh you know, conditioning process and in preparation. Um, now that he's football only, is Zach going to be able to improve? You know, what's his ceiling on the football field. It's it's a really interesting evaluation because there's a lot of projection there. Where do you feel comfortable

drafting him? And then a guy on the defensive side of the ball, Chris Rump at a duke, really really interesting because he didn't start playing. His dad, longtime college in NFL defensive coach, defensive coach at defensive coordinator at Florida, now is in the NFL with the Bears, is their

defensive line coach. Really extensive background in coaching at a high level, but he didn't let his son, Chris Rump the second, he didn't allow him to play football until high school, and so he was one hundred and seventy pound junior in high school and so just way behind in terms of his body in terms of just football development.

Goes to Duke and the last two years this guy was was hard to lock U thirty four total passes or tackles for a loss, But I don't know what to do with them because he's undersized and he's a liability in the run game. Once blockers get their hands on him, they can shut him down fairly easily. So where are you playing him? Is he a sub package guy? Or can can you get something out of him as an off ball player in early downs? I'm just trying

to figure out his exact role is really tough. I think you know, we talk about, um, you know, gadget players on offense. You know, we don't talk enough about gadget players on defense. You know we don't. We don't use that term for defenders. To me, Rough is a gadget player. You know. However you want to use him, I think there's definitely value there. You just have to figure out the right role, the right way to deploy him,

because I mean, he has speed. Um, you know, he's got a knack for finding the crease and you know, creating havoc in the backfield. Just it's a lot of fun to watch. But trying to nail down his exact project action at the next levels a little bit of a challenge. I like it real quickly. I'm going to get my back to back starting with the comp player, or excuse me, starting with my toughest to evaluate, and

that's Jason Away, edge rusher out of Penn State. And the reason why is because I want to love the traits and I do, and I want to love the film, and I try and talk myself into loving the film. But he also didn't have a sack at all this past season, and I know there wasn't necessarily a whole

lot to work with on that Penn State defense. They really struggled on that side of the football this year without Michael Parsons back there, without some of the other guys that like a geter, grossmatos and players that had left previously. But he has every single bit of the tools available to potentially make it and be successful in

the NFL. I've still tapped him as one of my top edge rushers, but it was still kind of tough for me to really look at it and say, I think he's going to get to the quarterback in the NFL whenever he didn't have a single sack in twenty twenty. My favorite comp other than Dane Brugler's comp of Carlos Basham junior where he comped him to Marcus Davenport earlier in the year. I love that comp Dane, by the way, so props to you on that one. I tweeted this

out though, Quincy Roche edge rusher out of Miami. I compared him to Bradley and I, and I think Roche's way better than and I, But I also I think they win in certain ways. They were both uber productive during their collegiate ten years, and then all of a sudden, Roche, whenever Gregory Rousseau opted out, had a bigger opportunity to be productive, and he ended up having a huge sack year. And he wins with short arms and not a ton of speed, which is exactly what I had written down

for Bradley and I last year. And so I compared those two guys together once again, I think Roche is just a better player overall. More polished than and I was. And with that being said, he's still one of my top eight edge rochers as well. Dane. Yeah, it's Roche is interesting. He's he's tough to stack in this class because there's so many any talented rushers in that you know, rounds two to four range. Um, you know, he's he's log jammed in there with guys like Rashad Weaver and

Peyton Turner and Patrick Jones. Um. Yeah, so it's tough to stack him. Um. I don't like him as much as you do. But he did I thought he did. He helped himself with the Senior Bowl. He he played, showed a little more juice live than I saw on tape, which is good to see. But I mean another guy you mentioned Oway not much production. Um, you know, uh Rochet, he didn't have a ton of stack production as a as a senior at Miami. Um. So it's you know, he could be a little bit difficult too. Who is

your favorite cop, Dame? Um, so I've got a few of them. I really like the Travon Merrick to Jesse Bates um comparison, because you're talking about guy's tall, linear, a little a little leaner, than you want, and that'll show in the run game. But guys that are proven ballhawks or you know, they got range, they know how to make plays on the ball, you know they're probably

not gonna be first rounders. I mean, maybe Mary gets in the first round, but I think probably more early second you know, kind of like Jesse Bates for for a lot of the same reasons. And then a linebacker Jamie and Davis at a Kentucky who's a Day two player in this draft. He is a carbon copy, a clone of Zach Cunningham, who at a Vanderbilt went to the Texans. I just think they're the exact same player that it was. It just hit me over the head

watching Davis's tape how how similar they were. So those two really stood out as easy comps for me, Katy. Yeah, for me, I'm gonna go a little off the beaten path here. When I watched Notre Dame tight end Tommy Trimble, I was kind of getting Joe Daguarra vibes, if you remember, from Cincinnati, kind of lined up everywhere. You can line him out at ax you could play him as the h back, and I know you can do it with a lot of tight ends, but just kind of the

way they moved and the way they played. I kind of kind of had that as my my cops that I that I liked. Um, Tommy Trimble and Joseph Daguira, I think went went the third round and then he tore his acl um. You know, I think I always get uncomfortable with comps with quarterbacks because there's so much going on at the quarterback level that I'm I'm really really uncomfortable doing that. Um, So I don't know, I'm

gonna stay away from the quarterbacks. One guy, and I do not like his tape really at all from this year, I mean, his most recent tape. But I do see the running style. When I watched Cuba Hubbard, I see that kind of upright style that Darren McFadden had. Now way different obviously, H McFadden All American first round pick Chuba Hoverard. You know, I don't think it's crazy to say that he might not get drafted, but I think he probably goes in the fifth, sixth, seventh round something

like that. But when I watched it, I typed that on my note right there, like, hey, it's kind of like that mcfaddened style. But there's a lot going on with Cuba Hoverard. When I watched him, I was not impressed. Jeff oh or Darius Washington honey Badger. I don't know if I have to say it over and over again. Yeah, my five eighth safety, he's honey badger and that's awesome, And the other one is a bad comp I'm gonna throw that out before I give you the comp just

because the size is so much different. But ken Darius Tony, the Florida wide receiver, his tape reminds me of when I was ten years old or however old, I was watching Dante Hall with the Kansas City Chiefs, because it's like three people will run into each other or run into him, and somehow he's still going and they're all on the ground. Just the change of direction and the contact balance and how in the hell did he squirt

out of that? So Canarius Tony reminds me of every great punt returner ever, and he does it while he's playing wide receiver or taking handoffs. But yes, Ardarius Washington TCU safety, honey badger. Do you I thought you were comparing Kadarius Tony to yourself at ten years old? That's what I thought it was. I will tell at ten, At ten, I had wiggle. I was ahead athletically at ten. It was at about fifteen that people caught up. Should you also want a rapping career like Kadarius Tony? And

I would like it? Yeah, that'd be great. I could go country music or rap. I would go either one, but I'll take it. I mean, if anybody out there's offering, I need to update my report on Tony to change my compform. It's a ten year old Jeff Kavanaugh. Yes, I like it. I think that'd be fun. Jeff. I think you're you're witty and like quick witted enough to

be a like a freestyle rapper. Like if you had to sit down and write it, I don't know if you could do it, but I think if you're sitting there and just rattling it off the top of your head, I think you could get it done. I thought so too, Kyle, And then I tried. You tried? How did that? It didn't go? Well? Not? Well, that's unfortunate. Well, I like your comp of Kadarius Tony. I had him with Percy Harvin.

That was who I had him tabbed as kind of once again, another nice returner, somebody that is lightning quick and shifty. So plenty of comps to go around, and of course that's one of the fun parts about the draft, is trying to look for those comps. And we just

gave a couple of our favorites. We might do this again, Dane, I think we should do this again, maybe when we get real close to the draft and kind of go up and talk about it again, kind of our favorites, our hardest since then, and maybe even our comps since then as well. But when we come back here on the Dallas Cowboys dot Com Draft show, time for some twitter on the twenty we'll do it right after the break.

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Cowboys dot Com Draft Show? Entering segment numbered here the Dallas Cowboys dot Com Draft Show. Glad you're with us, Chris being back in studio. We've got Dan Brugler, Kevin kat Turner, the great Jeff Kavanam, Kyle Yeoman's time now for some twitter on the twenty as always, Like I said, Beemer doing work in the back at the SWBC Mortgage studios. All right, starting things off with a very quick rapid fire question for you, and I'm going to direct this

toward Dane Brugler. Jason Bruitt asked yearly question that has the twenty twenty one weirdness kind of added to it. But even though there wasn't a traditional combine this year, of course that being snubbed and moved to pro days. Who do you see as some of the snubs and surprises from the list that came out of the quote unquote combine invites Dane. Yeah, there were three hundred and twenty three names on the list that they released yesterday. A few of the guys that I thought were it

was a little surprising they were left off. Running back Spencer Brown from UAB is a good player, UM. A couple of wide receivers like Marlon Williams from UCF, Demonte Coxey Memphis. A couple of Senior Bowl guys bowling green tight end Quentin Morris, uh Riley Cole the lineback from South Alabama. UM, Terek Thompson, the safety at a San Dieo State. So there were a few. I don't I didn't think any were you know, necessarily egregious. Um. You know,

the names I just mentioned are borderline draft picks. So uh, you know, not a not a huge surprise, but you know, I thought it's it's always interesting when you know, you get to get the combined list and some of the players that are left off, and you know it's because it just you know, peak behind the curtain. Uh. You know, the National NFS they put this combine on terms and they they vote on, you know, which players they want to see, and you know, obviously teams have their input.

So just it's interesting to see which players got the most votes to be represented at the combine. All right, Well, I mean even in a year like this, to be snooped from the combine. I feel like it's not necessarily it's not as big of a deal. And like you said in the first segment, there's usually thirty or forty guys or in between that mix that end up going and getting drafted that did not end up at the combine,

and some a little bit higher than others. Let's go to Jeff already answered this question on Twitter, but I want to answer it on the show as well. But Tom Downey asked what prospect do you not want the Cowboys to draft at ten out of the ones that are realistic for the Cowboys to draft at ten? And he did say, Jeff Cavanall, you're not allowed to say Gregory Rousseau because we knew that would probably be the answer.

But Jeff, who else would you not want the Cowboys to select the ten Oh, that is a really good question. Tempted to say Micah Parsons, but I'm going to say any edge rusher. I just don't think there's one eligible to me to be picked at ten, and as zaz Asulari is my top one out of Georgia U, I don't think there's a pass rusher worth the tenth pick. I think it's a good answer because I mean what, I'm not even sure what the other answer would be, because for me at least, I mean I would be fine,

even though I wouldn't be my preference. I wouldn't be mad if they drafted Jalen Waddle. Um, you know, I wouldn't be mad if they drafted Kyle Pitts. Wouldn't be mad. Uh, you know if they drafted um, you know, any any of these top linebackers later. Yeah, I mean you don't you it might not be your first choice. You might not love it, but I don't. I wouldn't. It wouldn't be like upset about it. So yeah, I think that's a good answer. Any of the edge rushers, maybe Christian Barbore,

I think that's a little early for him. Um yeah, I don't. Maybe you know, I like j C. Horn, but even ten feel a little early for him. But I still wouldn't be like, you know, let's be up in arms about it. So yeah, that's I think any any any of the EDG dresser is probably a little too early for them at that tenth pick. And I want to weigh in, like if where they're at a ten if for now and it's maybe a bad assumption.

But if you can assume that four quarterbacks are going in front of you at ten, or just for the sake of this discussion, let's say that, then we know that we have six players coming down down your way. If five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, right, stack that board up, and if you really want to focus on defense, then maybe you can move things around. But like, stack that board up, you can easily know who you want

and you will have every scenario lined up. You need six picks that you have to deal with right here, six players, and you should have one, two, three, four scenarios lined up. I think where I think where the discussion gets interesting is if you trade back, and that's where you start pitting Osilary against jac Horneum or dres against you know, maybe it's Derris against yeah against Barmore or Vara Tucker or however you want to play it.

If you're thinking offensive line there, like if there's a trade back and you're in that seventeen to twenty region, that's where I think it gets a little more difficult. I actually think it's pretty simple to draft someone you like at ten when you know that three or four quarterbacks have been going in front of you. I really don't think you can go wrong there if you've done your work and you have it stacked the way that

you want to want to go. And I'm saying the problem, well, I'm saying that in terms of picking the guy you want, Yeah, I would say the only problem with that is when you said stack up your next six guys. I think my next six guys play offense, and I think that that's not ideal for the Cowboys because to me, the best six guys would be some combination of Pena Suel, Rashaan Slater, Kyle Pitts, Jamar Chase, Jalen Waddle, Davante Smith.

So four quarterbacks go. I think the six next best players all play offense, well, at least maybe seven and eight might be Defensean Farley and certain might be there maybe if that, If that's where you have him ranked, my easy answer to this question would be Mac Jones. Please don't ever talk to me about drafting Mac Jones at ten, even if he is the only quarterback available at that point. You haven't signed Dak Prescott because I feel,

like Katie, you're talking about all these big scenarios. But even with the scenarios that are outside of the draft itself, in Dak Prescott's contract negotiations and everything that's going on there. If mac Jones is the presumed pick at ten, I would be lived. I would hate that. It'd be better than not picking a quarterback if you haven't signed your quarterbaw no, no, I don't want it. I don't want it to drift. I would rather drift. I would kick that can down the road before I would I would

draft mac Jones. You know that down the road is like the next draft having Keaton Slovis and who knows what else. We'll figure it out. There's a lot of quarterbacks. Quarterback now I'm just saying, I'm just saying quarterback. I'm saying I'm saying we will figure it out rather than having mac Jones. Because I don't want mac Jones at like really at all. That's my one thing. But I could be wrong. I've been wrong before. I'm going out on a limb to say that I think mac Jones

would be a terrible pick of ten. But kind of I want to go back to what Kat was just saying because it is intriguing to me because last year, when we were picking at seventeen, there were conversations about pretty much anybody, and we thought, of course Ceedee Lamb wasn't even a part of that conversation, and he was the one that fell. I think this could be a whole segment in itself, and we may do this next week.

But if we do trade down, or if the Cowboys do trade down, then what is the what are the scenarios? What are those different players, like you said, stacking up a horn versus in Ozolari and talking about these different prospects that aren't top ten prospects but are still really good players. And what would you get in return for maybe the second in the third round to kind of add onto your draft. I think that might be a

fun segment we do next week. Overall, Kat, I like your heads out in that regard, looking for my page refreshed. This is bad radio looking. I do that every day, brother, I know it's the worst hours of it. Yeah. Adam asked what or what prospects get under opponent's skin the best in this draft class because he wants Dallas to end up with some dogs, some guys who can trash talk, bring some personality, honey badger like intensity, who are some

guys that could potentially bring that. Kelvin Joseph the Kentucky corner and Jac Horn South Carolina corner. Those are the two guys that they don't stop. It's fun because when you can see that on tape, you just get to imagine what's happening. But those are the two guys by far that jump out as they're gonna talk to you. They're gonna play hard, they're gonna make you mad, and then they're gonna tell you they made you mad, and then they're gonna make a play, and then they're gonna

tell you they made a play. Yeah, Jac Horn, Kelvin Joseph. But the one thing that I'd worried about with Horn is how much is a good the other way? How much is uh you know for how easy is it for receivers to get underneath his skin? Um? You know, because he does play so emotional and so aggressive and that that is a that is a tough one. Oh. I got Gil Brent calling Meoul. Should I answer that and put him on? Yes? Yes, no, hold on all rightly? Um, you know he's he's a missed opportunity for the show

right there. I wouldn't do that to Gil, but he uh not not the Godfather, come on. Um. So with JC Horn he plays still emotional. That does worry me both ways because yeah, he will get after it, he will talk. He's not as flashy as his dad, you know, Joe Horn, but he's still you know, you could see that alpha mentality in him. But I also think it goes the other way too, where when the receiver might might have a few wins against him, it starts to

go south a little bit. And so, uh, you know when you see that in on some of these tapes where some of the receivers they'll go right at them because they try to get under a skin early, try to kind of set the precedent early in that game. So it just horns an interesting one when you talk about, uh, you know, wearing his emotions on his sleeves and being aggressive.

I would to point out something that I'm not sure we've talked about on this show, Like we all will talked about how, hey, Jacy Horns a little grabby down the field sometimes right things like that, So is Patrick Curtan No one really talks about it. The big difference though, is Patrick Curtain will grab a guy down the field, and he'll just put his head down and run back like get back into you know, go out to the

huddle or whatever, like jac Horn. This is why it's just he's just so demonstrative every time he'll hold a guy and then he'll turn around and go what non non non, Nope, and it's like, hey, man, Curtan like very pro about it. Hey, I'm gonna hold you, I'm gonna grab you. I'm gonna grab you. I'm gonna grab Just go back to the huddle, normal, normal day at

the normal day at the office. I do think it's interesting because it stands out way more when you watch Horn than it does with Certain It maybe Horn's a little more grabbier than Certain but like st act like Curtan's not getting his hands in there a little bit. He just he just has a good way of not showing it after the play and a good timing to just kind of pull it back at the right time and not like play to the refs. It's very fun.

The differences is that it's Horn's primary coverage technique. Yea, yeah, he does it a lot more. I mean it happens with a lot of corners, but I more so with JC Horn. Every time he gets up he is looking for the official, either to make sure he didn't throw a flag or to complain because the flag wasn't thrown. It's just it's amazing when you're watching him every time after a play he gets up and meanly finds the

official for one reason or the other. It's it's just fascinating with him, even with like the grabbiness and the hands And I've always had trouble kind of deciphering this myself, so I'll pass this question onto you guys. But when does it become a problem whenever there is a corner, like like you're you're differing even certain and far or excuse me in Horn here, But when does it become

a problem whenever they are handsy downfield? Because it is a technique thing and it is something that can be taught, right, Yeah, No, No, it's a problem when it's in the super Bowl and the rest want to throw a lot of flags. True, but I'm more of saying I agree, But I'm I'm kind of trying to say, when is it more of a draft issue? When are you going to knock a guy for being handsy as opposed to another guy for being handsy, because everybody's gonna be physical in some sense

whenever they're in a cornerback position. But what is the threshold of it being a problem and it being fixable? From a draft prospect, I think you just have to figure out is he doing that because he's incapable of covering or is he doing that because it gives him an added advantage and he knows he can get away with it at the college level. For JC Horn, I'll tell you this, at the moment, he's my cornerback number one. And that's while acknowledging that he is the graviest corner

I've ever studied. Because I also see that his athleticism it doesn't require that. So if it becomes a big issue and he's getting flagged twice a week in the NFL, then you're gonna have to take it away. But I also view it as the positive of that's that aggressive mindset, that's that you're not you get nothing from me like I'm I'm going to be with you every step of the way. You're gonna feel me. I'm going to be here. So unless it's to cover up for a lack of something,

I won't kill you yet. It's just a matter of in the league. If you start getting flagged every week then and we can't take it away from you and have you still be good. But I think his athleticism is good enough that it's not required. I think the other thing too with that is I'd rather give me the aggressive guy and we'll try to scale it back as opposed to the non aggressive guy, the passive player,

and try to crank it up with him. You know, I'd rather give me the JC Horns of the world, and we'll manage it and work on it as opposed to the opposite. So you know, that's that's another reason why I think Horns. You know, even though he is grabby what five penalties and seven games this year, you know you still feel comfortable with him as a first round pick. No. I like that a lot. I mean,

that's a great answer. If it relies if his athleticism relies on the fact of him being hanzy to be successful, then that's an issue. And if not, then hey, it's a teachable thing and hopefully professional coaches could make an impact. I like that a lot. That's a good answer from both of you, guys. Let's go ahead and take our second break. When we come back, there's some offensive lineman that we need to talk about on this show, because we don't talk a whole lot about the offensive line,

especially on the interior. We'll talk about it next the hog Miley's up front when we return here on the Cowboys Draft Show. Sometimes nothing. The classic Miller Light, the original light beer brewed with great taste and only ninety six calories available for delivery. Celebrate responsively. Miller Brewing Company, Milwaukee, Wisconsin. Ninety six calories three point two cars for twelve ounces. The Cowboys Way, where sixteen Hall of Famers and five

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six calories three point two carbs for twelve ounces. Is the Dallas Cowboys dot Draft Show final segment to hear of the Dallas Cowboys dot Com Draft Show, Glad you're with us, Everybody, just take a moment and say a quick prayer for Jeff Cavanall's phone batteries, so that way, hopefully he stays with us the entirety of this final segment, but if not, he'll join us next week. I guess if if we can't get him back up and go him.

But Dane Burglar, Jeff Cavana, Kevin, Katie Turner, I'm Kyle Yeomans, and well, Dane, there are some offensive linemen we need to talk about. Katie. You put this in our group message as well this past week, and I know Jeff has been hitting up on these these offensive lineman too, So there's been a lot of offensive line talk and we're gonna go gonna go through that quite a bit

here over the next couple of moments. But Katie, what were some of the topics that you wanted to hit whenever it came to the front five and how we could potentially be shaped out in this draft class. Well, I mean, I think there's a lot of things to talk about with these guys, and anytime Jeff is tweeting him out offensive lineman, you know that you're in good shape to talk about this. You want to take advantage of Jeff because generally Jeff didn't like to talk about

offensive lineman with me. So I liked the Jeff sitting out so well, look, there was a time where I didn't need to worry about it on the Cowboys, and so I grew to not care about watching offensive lineman because you didn't need them. And now it might be time to turn that page. So I have to do the annoying work of watching offensive line. Now we've talked

so much about Pinney Sewell and Rashawn Slater. I don't want to spend a tole lot of time on those guys today, but I think there is a conversation to be had about what happens after that, and day I'll go to you dry saw as I think a lot of people's offensive tackle three. You start to get Vera Tucker from USC in there, Oklahoma State's Tevin Jenkins, and there's lots of guys Eikenberg, if you want to talk about him, there's tons of guys. I start to think,

you know the Cowboys success, I do know. I feel like I know how the Joneses operate a lot. I feel like they feel comfortable taking first round off. It's a lineman, and I do think that's in play if they traded back. And I don't know if that's the right thing to do, but if there was a trade back,

I still think offensive lineman would be in play. But the other thing that I've been thinking about is if you're sitting there at forty four and you're trading up into the back of the first round, or you're trading up into the top of the second round, and it was for a player, who would it be? And I know you can look the names are limitless, But for me, I start to think about, do they even know that

they needed offensive tackle? The answer is probably yes, but they might need a guard just the same way they need a tackle, And I think those are questions they're gonna be balancing. And the easy answer is find a guy who can play both. Yeah, And that's obviously easier said than done, but you know, it's if you're gonna find one. I think this is a class to do it. There's this week on the Athletic I posted my top twelve offensive tackles, top ten guards, top eight centers, um.

And there's a lot of future NFL starters in there, a lot of them, and uh several of them do have the position flexibility that you're looking for, whether it be tackle, guard, guard, center. Um. So you know this this draft is. I don't think we talk enough about the offensive line and how uh strong of a group it is. You know, it's it's it's I don't think it's up there with you know, necessarily wide receiver or um, you know, even even Ed Dresser I think is up there.

Corner is up there. But the offensive line is it's a really strong group. And you could pull Coles in these guys. I mean, Christian Derris saw it bugs the heck out of me. How he just doesn't he plays for like ninety percent of the play and then he's good, you know, like just just finish, man, come on, give me give me a killer instinct here. Um. You know,

like that drives me nuts. But that's why that's why I put Tevin Jenkins ahead of Derrissaw on mine because I think that he plays harder, like he wants to finish you. He plays with that mentality. And Derrissaw plays like, you know, this is easy. You know, he gets the job done, he does his job, and he's just kind of like cool. And Jenkins is like, I want to kill you, yeah, and I'm not no no arguments for me on that. They three and four are very close from me. I went Derris saw Jenkins, but if if

you flip those no issue with that at all. Jenkins is so uniquely powerful, um, and he does have that killer instinct that you want to see more from from Derris Saw. Jenkins a little short armed, and that worries me a little bit. UM. But I do think both of these guys, I don't see why either of these guys wouldn't be able to move inside to guard if you needed him too. So you know we're talking about

a trade back situation from from ten. You know, maybe either of those two guys are on the radar um and if they wait until day two to address the position, I think there's there's gonna be options. Dylan Radins from North Dakota State Deante Smith, East Carolina. Um, you know guys with tackle and guard experience, who you know your your football team is going to be better if you draft these guys. Your offensive line depth is going to be better. And it's just it's it's going to help

your entire offense. So it might not be the sexiest pick, but I think it would make sense for this team. Do you think it would be easier to address the offensive line issues in Day two than it would be to add safety or a corner or somebody on the on the defensive side of the football if you didn't go offensive tackle at ten? Dane, riddle me this, tell me if you think I'm too early on this. But you talk about having him play both or having the

ability to. What if you took Alex Leatherwood in the second round, Alabama's left tackle that I think some are going to view him as a guard and maybe he could do both. Is that too early for Leatherwood? Yeah? I think that's that's later what they picked forty four. I mean to me, that's exact right right where Leatherwood should be drafted, you know, somewhere between thirty five and fifty, you know, I think he's in that range. Personally, I grat him as a guard. He's just he's not the

most blusive guy. He's got a little bit of stiffness in his lower body, and so I think that he's going to be better inside a guard. He played it what as a sophomore before he moved back to left tackle as a junior and senior, so we do have some tape of him at guard. But yeah, I think he wants to be a tackle, and so I think he's shown enough that you feel okay with him if you want to keep him outside. But again, I think

he's better inside. And again that's why we're talking about a second round pick and not a first round pick with some of his issues. But in the second round, yeah, I think you feel good about Alex Leatherwood. And the way they operate is like free agency clean up holes for the draft. So do they bring Cam Irving back? Do they bring Joe Looney back? Do they add any depth that you know, guard or tackle to make make

you go okay? Now, we just need to focus on tackle, and if you're doing that, you're just folks on tackle. That's where your names like Leam Eickenberg of Notre Dame come into play. Maybe on day two, maybe Samuel Cosmi from Texas, maybe that comes into play, or if you need a guard. I mean I mentioned him earlier. He's my guy, and he may not fit what they want to do on offense. They might want to play a little faster um. But man, I am a big, big

fan of Deontay Brown. I know I mentioned earlier, and maybe you can get him on Maybe you can get him at seventy five in round three. You know the other guy, it's a very interesting name if you need it interior offensive line help. And who knows how far he'll drop is Landed Dickerson of Alabama. After the ACL they'll knock him a little bit, but I don't think

it's gonna drop him too far. So maybe there's a little day two value, maybe a guy who sides a little bit just because he might be a little late to the party. You know, maybe he's ready to start training camp. He should be at least pretty close to that is that's a great name because you know, we know this team in the second round, they're not they're not scared to take an injury guy or a character guy.

And Landard Dickerson, that's that's that's a great point. I mean he would be if he fell at a forty four. Scoop him up. I mean, this, this guy. The injury history is long, extensive and worrisome, but he's also an easy first round talent. I actually like him better at guard, even though he played almost primarily center at Alabama, but he could play both. He brings that culture that you

want his football characters outstanding on the field outstanding. Um, it's just you worry about him staying on the field, and you know, the greatest predictor of future injury is past injury, and he has you know, more than enough of that. So but if he's gonna be there a

forty four, it might be worth the risk. Dane. You say all of these great things about about him and about his character and his on the field talent and everything, and then you say the injury history and how it's extensive and now it's a predictor, and then like I'm all out again on him. I mean all I'm already out because I don't want the same offensive line trouble that the Cowboys had this past year, because that's exactly what it was. It was a lot of Bama evolving door.

A lot of Bama hate out of you opens today. I'm just no Jones, no Landon Dicker. Where did they do to you? That's true? Yeah, I don't know. Maybe it is just Alabama. I just I also hate DeVante Smithton. No, I'm just kidding. I don't hate you. Oh No, Kyle, No, No, he's really good. No, he's really good. I promise, I promise, Kyle, real quick, real quick. I got a question for you then, because if you don't want at the injury history bothers you there, does round four Walker a little from Stanford

do anything for you? Yes, because it's less. I mean what would we already have had four picks before that, a first round pick, a second round pick, and potentially two third round picks, So he'd be your fifth pick in the draft. I would take that. I would take Walker a little at that point. Yeah. I think he'd be a steal at that point too. Yeah. He's he's he. He had a missed opportunity by not playing at the Senior Bowl. He had his invite, he declined it. I

mean that's a big missed opportunity for him. Um, we just haven't seen him on the fuel. No, you know, almost two years, so you know, he's a really talented player. It's just tough he would have qualified for that first segment when we went over guys that are just tough to figure out, and with him, it's just because the lack of sample size and just haven't seen him in

a while. And just to be clear on Dickerson specifically, I still have him as a as a top five lineman or wait no, he is seventh on my list at the moment in terms of interior offensive lineman. He's seventh at the point. So I still think very highly of him, and I think he's a He's an incredible player and an incredible leader. You saw that just from the SEC Championship game and the reaction that he had and then of course whenever he came back in and

took the final neel down of the Natty. I mean, overall, he's he's he was the heart and soul of that offense. But I want to go back to a question, or not even a question, but something that Bucky Brooks said on Tuesday show, and he said, if you're going to be in a position that the Cowboys are in and you want to get an offensive tackle, go get him at ten. Don't don't wait and go get a Duke, Go get a Slater, Go get a deisol or even if Sools somehow miraculously fell, I mean it happens every year.

If he somehow fell, get one of these top guys at tackle, and then worry about the rest of your team later on. Do you agree with this standpoint from an overall look of the Cowboys, because I mean, have that kind of my rebuttal to that would be, well, why wouldn't you say the same thing about corner? You know, why why would it? Why wouldn't you say the same thing about well, you know, go get you know you the Cowboys may have a chance to draft the best

corner in this in this class. You know, why wouldn't you say that also about corner instead of, you know, waiting to see what's available for you in the second round. So, I mean, I don't necessarily disagree with it. I just think you could say that about several positions for this team and for this class. Dane Slater, Rashawn Slater and Greg Newsome or Patrick Certan and Alex Sletherwood, U Slater and Newsome Well Newsom make forty four. No. I mean,

he's he's going in the first round. The only the only thing you worry about Newsome is yeah, again, a guy that's missed at least three games each year. Um, and so he's got a very lean, wiry frame. Um. His him not holding up would be the only reason he isn't going the first round in my opinion, just a really I comped in the Kyle Fuller. I think he's a top four corner in this draft. It just comes down to, you know, do you trust him to stay out there? And if you do, I think he's

gonna go in the first round. Okay, Slater and Newsome or Sir Tannon Jenkins said again, now, what was it? Slater and Newsome or Sir Tan and Tevin Jenkins? Tevin Jenkins at forty four would be amazing, that really nice. Yeah, he might have held up a convenience. If you got something something, it would be a ton of thing. He's still still a huge Yeah. I would still go with the Northwestern route, just because I think I would too. I'm that high on Newsome, but that definitely makes you

think more. I guess Jenkins is really good and obviously Curtains a really good player. So that I mean, if if if you're choosing between those two scenarios, the draft's working out okay for you, I think he would be happy with either one of those. I would be bumped about either one of those if you're the Cowboys, because you're fixing your offensive line or at least adding some depth and then adding some potentials there and then you're turning around, then you got yourself a starter on defense

in each of those realms at cornerback. But we're running out of time. That's gonna do it for us here on the Dallas Cowboys dot Com Draft Show. Be sure to follow all of these guys on Twitter. They have great work throughout the week DAYE on the Athletic of course, Katie and Jeff in the local radio markets as well, and continue to do fantastic work. But until then, until next Thursday, ten am Central Time, We'll see you next time for Dan Burglar, Kevin, kat Turner, for Jeff Kavanaugh,

Chris Bean Back in studio, I'm Kyle Yeoman. Thanks for listening to the Dallas Cowboys dot Com Draft Show. This has been a production of Dallas Cowboys dot Com and the Dallas Cowboys Football Club.