Draft Show: The Nitty-Gritty

once again April twenty nine in Cleveland, Ohio. So glad you're with us here over the next hour as we break down some more draft talk, and we've continued this for what is now thirty five episodes of the Draft Show this year. So glad you've been along on this journey with us. Kyle Yeoman's alongside Kevin, Katie Turner, We've got Jeff Cavn, and then Bucky Brooks is on the way. Of course, Bucky Brooks big time with the NFL network, so we're on his schedule whenever it comes to him

joining our show. We love Bucky and we will see him coming up here. Just a couple of moments, but a lot of exciting at least for Draft nerds talk. Today because we're gonna get into the nitty gritty. We're gonna get into some day three guys to talk about, and we're also going to talk about maybe even the new age of scouting. But overall, Jeff, I mean, we're getting into the final couple weeks here. If you had to peg, what would be the most stressful thing on

NFL front offices right now? Because I mean there's stress all year round, but right now, whenever you're done with pro days, those are in the rearview mirror. You've pretty much done all of these interviews. What's the most stressful part about the draft process leading into these final two weeks? I think for me it would probably be just when you get them all kind of an and then you

start really drilling down. Like for me, when I watch tape, I just kind of haphazardly put guys in the rounds that I think they go, and the order is not all that important, but I think I have him in the right order. Then I go back over all my notes and I kind of reorder the rounds, and then you get to the end and you go, Okay, Caleb Farley, how far where do I put you? With your back vasectomies. I don't know how to say the actual words. That's what I go with his back vasectomies, Like where do

I put you now? Because I'm gonna tell you right now, I have Caleb Farley as cornerback eight wow, because I just you know that, to me, that is the challenge. The medical part is the challenge. Like when somebody gives you a thumbs up and they say, hey, Caleb Farley is going to be he's gonna be okay. In my mind, I just go, man, backs don't get better, and so where are you actually going to end up? And for me, it's all right, I'm gonna put you right behind all

the corners that I really like. And then, because it's weird that I've talked to Will McClay, we talked to Will McLay about this on the fan at one point and what do they do with injured guys with red medical red flag guys? And he said that they leave them where their talent dictates. So like when Jalen Smith was picked by the Cowboys, Jalen Smith was sitting on their board in the first round way up there at the very very top, and I was like, man, that seems insane to me, and so I'd do it a

different way. I put them where I would actually pick them. And so that's that's that's the thing right now for me is killed Farley. Where in the world do I put you? And so for me, the answer is cornerback eight. I think Jeff hit on it pretty good like the medicals. But you know, if you're like me, they ain't no stressing out. Baby. We did the work, we got him

in order, weren't good to go. I don't know. And this is where I think I want to ask Bucky, because he's lived this life before, maybe the last minute in house fighting of an organization, maybe you know, you get the scouts and maybe a coach comes in, he's got a passionate plea on a PowerPoint presentation. But why you should take this guy over the guy you like better? Like maybe that's the type of thing that can cost him stress. But I mean, come on, man, we're middle

of April. Now, we're two weeks away. You're either way

to rock or you are. Bucky. Yeah, yeah, I think when you get down to this process that a lot of it depends on who controls the draft, meaning is it a coach driven team or is it a front office general manager driven team, Because if it's a coach driven team, the coach's voice has more sway and more power, meaning that when they come in and the coaches who may be late in the process come in and kind of way in with their opinions, their opinions may cause

more movement on the board than in an other situation where the general manager and the scouts to kind of run in the process. So a lot of it depends on that, but really there shouldn't be a lot of movement now not necessarily governed by the scouts or the coaches. The medical stuff in the background stuff that is, like

the top decision makers have to deal with that. But you're Graaties, You're a great and I think we have to be careful of not necessarily trying to weigh in with the medical, Like it shouldn't impact whatever you saw on the player on the tape. Great on that, and then whatever happens with the medical is the medical. That's kind of exactly what Jeff you were just talking about of what Will McClay had to say whenever it comes

to the medicals. I mean, we just saw one hundred and fifty prospects go to Indianapolis and get the medicals checked out. But does that that's not supposed to change. I'm with you, Jeff, I basically switched the tag as to where they're going to get picked. Now. Of course I didn't get grown up into the scouting world at the same time like a Bucky or a Will McClay, But there's different aspects of the injuries that worried me to the point of being able to take a prospect

a little bit later on than usual. Yeah, I would think like Will mcclay's initial job was the idea of marrying the scouting department with the front office, with the coaches and all that, and like this will almost go into what we're going to talk about later with the

rams not going on the road anymore. Like I just wonder, is that the best practice to just say, Hey, this player is this good, so we put him on the board, and then when we get on the clock later in the draft and he's falling because of his medicals, we just say, our doctors say it's okay, and we pick him and we get excited about having a first round talent.

Or can we marry those two things where the medical people are saying, here's how we feel about it, and then you actually slot him where you're willing to pick them instead of where the talent dictates. I don't know. To me, that's what I would want my team to do is not getting on the clock and then looking up and go, guys, we still got that first round

guy available. I would want to know, Hey, the first round guy with the back or with the knee or with the whatever, where did we decide his actual value is as a pick? And then that way we don't have to go back and forth on it while we're on the clock. Would just be like, yeah, he was the fourth best player in this draft, and we've decided we would be willing to pick him as the fortieth player in the draft, and so there he sits, instead

of having to have that debate on the clock. It is something that all of these front offices are going to have to look at moving into these next couple of weeks, especially with the medical information that the media is not going to have access to. I mean, we can try as hard as we want, but whenever it comes to the one hundred and fifty players that went to Indianapolis and had those medical checks. We have no

idea how those turned out. Maybe Caleb Varley went there and proved to teams that he is a top ten caliber corner that he is ready to go despite some of the back issues. So there's a lot of question marks that are going to come and I think because of that, we're going to see a lot of light bulb picks in the first couple of rounds of the

NFL Draft coming up here in sixteen days. Let's go to the final day of the NFL Draft, going all the way into May to talk in this first segment, And Katie, you brought up this topic in our group message this week, but we want to have a quick Day three round table. We've got about ten minutes twelve minutes or so to get to this before we get to Twitter on the twenty. But who are some of the more intriguing Day three guys, kat that come to mind?

And we'll start on the offensive side of the football, a position that's the deepest and that's most likely to be picked by Dallas later in the draft. Yeah, I mean, I think wide receivers the deepest, and I don't necessarily see them, you know, going that route. But for sure wide receivers the deepest, and I'll say it. I mean, obviously, I'm a un t guy, so I always want to give Jalen Darten some love. My idea here, you know, let's just kind of round him. Here's the guys that

we like and this this. This could be guys that are fifth round grades or something, but like just some guys who are a little deeper down the line that you kind of maybe maybe like maybe you like him a little more than the rest of the world. I want to throw an offensive tackle because the Cowboys are gonna be in the offensive tackle market. And I like

this guy from Florida, stone Forsyth. I don't think he's bigger run block, but he's six foot eight and he moves pretty well for a big man, like I always enjoy watching when I watched the MAVs play, I always enjoy when Bobon's in the game. But Bobon, you know, he doesn't move very well. But like a little big man love pull Porzingis can move a little bit. I'd like to watch the big guys play. Watch Joe Ownbi

last night. He's a truck, but like stone forsythe is a pretty good pass blocker for a guy that's six eight. So that's a guy who I've got kind of in the fourth round, and you know, well, maybe a team takes a shot at him, you know, in the third round, maybe at late day two. But I think he'll probably be a Day three guy. But that's kind of my late discovery as we've been going on here. Stone Forsythe,

the officive tackle from Florida. Nice. That might be my second favorite name in the NFL draft, behind Divine Diablo. I think that might Stone fourths life. Excuse me, I can't even say it. Forsythe might be my favorite name. Jeff, is there a Day three guy you're looking at? I actually think did you? Guys should be really happy. I think the guy at the top of the list for me would probably be Jalen Darden. Hey about watching watching

him the other day. I just I think if you can find a guy that's going to be a little bit undervalued, whether it's because of level of competition or whether it's because of in his case size, I mean just looking at the number of spots that he gets in, Like in the screen game where you hit these quick hitters and you're like, oh, look, there's nowhere to go.

There's definitely nowhere to go down the sideline, and then he teleports and he's down the sideline and he's slipped through somewhere where you don't think a human can fit. I actually think that that's a really good name, because in looking over a lot of the Day three guys, I actually didn't see a ton of guys with like you know, you're four two or four to three, Like, hey, can I just find a guy that can bring an element for me? And I think Darden has a little

bit of that. And for the Cowboys on Day three, preparing for what's next at wide Receiver should probably be part of this for them. You don't have to do it early by any means, but with Gallup going into the last year of a deal, Maury Cooper has no guaranteed money left, and the NFL is so much about your weapons. Anyway, I think if the right guys there on day three, and I love the idea of being Jail and dardin at North Texas, I think it makes

a lot of sense. Yeah, I think. I think when you're dealing with like Day three guys like this typically comes down to trace and what are the redeeming qualities? Is a highway? Speed? Is a production? Can you envision them carving out a role, because when you're grading guys in the rounds four through seven, you're talking about backup or developmental players. So how can you see them get onto the field. Is that as a rotational pass rusher or a third or fourth wideout who also makes plays

on special teams. There has to be something that buys them time to give them an opportunity to develop to the point where they can get a jersey on Sundays. And so when Jeff is talking about speed or trying to find a four two guy or something, typically when you're in that that bargain basement, then you're trying to find something that you're saying, hey, he has this, we can build up on this until he develops or rounds out the rest of his game. But I liked it,

you know, go for you ahead, Cole. No, that's all ukt Well. I just wanted to give Like, I know a lot of people are going to say this about you know, Jalen Darden because he played at UNT and Conference USA and they don't play a lot of top flight schools. But do you remember when people would talk about the when Cole Beasley left and signed the big contract with the Bills and they brought in Randall Cobb

and it was one year, six million or whatever. But the discussion was while Beasley maybe a little bit more shifty underneath and able to get separation underneath, Cobb is more likely to go win down the field, and Darden

can do both of those things. And this happens every year with draft analysts or scouts probably or whoever you know, fansy and falling in love with those kind of slot type of guys, like pure slot guys, and you have because of the size and because of maybe some limitations physically, they're probably a Day three guy. And I think that's

probably right for Darden. But like he's got years of production to back it up, and he's not a fluke, Like I just can't say that from you know, and I know Kyle, and I've seen you in t play a ton because we went there and were proud of it. But like he's not a joke. He's not a joke

at all. So like I think I'm glad that I hope people are taking him seriously because and who knows, I mean, again, we're probably talking I've got him in the fifth round still, because yeah, there's a ton of wide receivers and you can't put them all in one round when you're stacking them. But I do think, like this is not some guy to be slept on. This is this is legit. No, he was the programs all tithing leader in career receptions with two thirty receiving yards.

He had almost three thousand receiving yards in his career, and he had thirty eight touchdowns and almost half of those came in last year's short and collegian season. So, like, like you said, Kat, not a joke by any means whenever we're talking about Jalen Dartins, because we actually think he's good. Sure he went to our alma mater, but even Jeff just went on a rant about him unprompted, and Jeff is not I know what Texas grad, even though he likes ACU a lot, and his team also

wanted a game in the tournament. Now, Bucky, you were about to say something, Yeah, So there are a couple of different things. One when because he's not a small school guy, because he's a group of five like I would categorize that different than a small school guy would. I would think your small school guys are the ones

that play at your FCS or D two level. The difference is with all of these guys, Like if you're not talking about a Power five guy, what you want to see is do I see consistent dominance of him versus his competition? Does he dominate whenever you turn on to tape. Then what you would like to do is see does he have an opportunity to play against a

big school? And if he plays against a big school and he holds his own or he doesn't look like a fish out of water, then you can feel more confident about the grade that you're giving him based on the production and the performance that you've seen him against

smaller competition. The other thing, because we talk about assigning round value round value like it's different because it's hard like on this side and the team side or whatever, but like it might help if you think about it this way, like think about assigning verbiage to round value, meaning first round guys should be guys that come in and start right away. Second round guys should be maybe

borderline first year starters, but key contributors. Third rounders A may take a year or two before they get them the field, but by year two or three they should be starters. And then fourth through seventh round are those developmental guys. And in the fourth round typically is someone that could have been in that Day one a Day two category, but there's an issue. Whatever that issue. It could be character, it could be medical, it could be

just like an inconsistent production. But the skills say that he could play up, but for whatever reason, here he is. And then as it goes down, your six and seventh round guys are kind of like your priority free agents, meaning I like a couple of skills that would give them a chance to make a roster, and I like them enough that I don't want them to hit the open market. That's why we're gonna draft him, because we want him more so than ay he's a free agent,

then we're gonna outbid somebody else for him. Are rather securious services by expanding a pick on him, as opposed to competing maybe with others for their free agent market that we've seen kind of escalate when guys get out there after the draft is tongue, lots of thought process.

Whenever it comes to trap prospects. Now going to the defensive side, Bucky, do you have any names that stick out from that side of the football Day three, because, I mean we've talked about it previously, but the Cowboys with ten picks ten picks overall, there's a lot that's gonna go into the defensive side. I mean, you could say seven or eight of those guys if they make

all ten picks, could be defensive players. Yeah. So I think what's interesting about defensive players in this secondary class in particulars We're gonna see a run on players and some of the notable names are going to end up on Day three. So like, for instance, prior to last year, everyone talked about Sean Wade. Sean Way was arguably one of the top slot corners. He goes outside this year, doesn't play as great, and now we haven't heard about him.

But I would think in the fourth round he will probably fourth or fifth round, he's probably going to hear his name call just because he has a role that you can envision him playing. He was a nickel corner at Ohio State. He played his best when he played in the slot. If you put him back inside, he may play like the player that we saw play the

first two years at Ohio State. There are other players that kind of fall into their toy Tray Brown from Oklahoma, who is big school guy, same thing, What does his best fit, where does he play, how can you envision him playing philosophically? It really just depends on how you

view it from a front office standpoint. The Cowboys have been notorious for going for more smaller school guys in the back end of the draft because some people believe that there's more potential from a guy that plays at a smaller school because he hasn't been afforded all the luxuries of guys at bigger schools, meaning training, training table, all that stuff, so he has more maybe room to grow and develop, whereas a guy at a big school

has been given everything. And so a lot of it just depends on how your scouts and coaches view that process and where do they want to shop at when it comes to those later round prospects. Jeff, you got some names, Okay, yeah, I'll the one, so I know Jeff likes Tom Graham, the cornerback from Oregon. I actually

like the other organ cornerback John mdor Lenora. And again, you know we're talking about Day three that the run on corners is going to be real interesting because there's a lot of ways you can probably stack those guys and there's a ton of them. It's kind of a lot like wide receiver in that regard With Lenora, you know, I like the way he moves in terms of his fluidity and things like that. I'm not a fan of

the lack of ball production. He did get thrown on a little bit his last couple of years, but you know, his better football was at the beginning, and I just see that potential there and if we're going like high end upside, like he had potential to be a true cornerback. Wanted organ he I mean, he was their cornerback one, but like it just continued to kind of fall off a little bit. So I want to find out what happened, kind of like Bucky was with Sean Wade, Like what happened,

And it's kind of clear what happened with him. You know, once you moved him, it began became a bit of a problem outside. So with Lenor, the potential was always there, the upside was always there, and it just didn't finish out the right way. In Oregon, and you know they had, you know, coaching change and all that go down and all that stuff. But when or's a guy who I still like and I'm willing to take a chance on because you see the fluid hips you seem always around

the ball. He's kind of an almost guy. He's almost there all the time, and maybe he tightened that up a little bit. And he's a confident player. That's one thing you know about him is that he's confident. And if he's a guy who didn't get his head down when he gets picked on a little bit, you may we can work with something there. So I've got Lenore kind of on my radar there on day three as well. All right, so I have like one hundred and fifty guys that I'm gonna go through real quick, Guys the

Cowboys love. I'm glad that Kat brought up corner because if there's two things the Cowboys love to draft, I would say it's corners and edge rushers, which makes sense because it's a premier position. But when you get when I started getting into the guys who and it's hard because you say day three and I'm like, okay, day three for me or day three for what I see

from other outlets ranking players. So I'll just give you guys a handful of guys and if any of you have seen them, and I'm sure you've all seen them and want to weigh in, because as I'm working through a lot of these edges, it's guys who aren't being talked about as being early in the draft, but it's full sized dudes that I think the floor is fairly safe on some of these guys. Florida State both their edges Genarius Robinson and Joshua Kando. Is that how you

say it? It is? Yeah, I mean both of them. You're talking about like six to five and two sixty and watching the length that they have play and you're watching the power play. I like those guys. Chauncey Golston at Iowa six five, two seventy, Like, there's a lot of these edge guys that I feel like because there's not a lot of snap to their game in terms of, oh he's really going to turn the corner on you, or oh he's really got he ran six eight three cone.

But these guys that are sort of steady, power length, those kind of players, I feel like those are the kind of guys that maybe they could get into rotation on your NFL team early and they're gonna stick around and they're going to last in the NFL because that's part of the league. So even though you're missing the massive upside with the athleticism, like it's almost like a budget Peyton Turner. I guess Houston's Peyton Turner will probably go earlier than these guys because he's huge, and his

athletic testing was great, and he's got production. But I think that there's I think that there's a few other guys that can man the edge for you that if they start falling into the fourth and fifth round. I like him johncy Golston, Kando, Genarius Robinson, and even Ogan Deji at Notre Dame. Oh, I was about to bring his talking about sort of a length and power player. Yeah, I like him a lot. I mean, like you said, length,

the power, the size. He's a senior bowld guy. He was a guy that had Notre Dame kind of stuck out from the pack a little bit at least in my mind whenever watching their tape. But I liked him a lot. Oh, I haven't gotten his pronunciation yet. How did you say that Jeff Ohgun did g Oh, I just took a while. I just took a while to swing it and went, Ogan dog, Okay, I'll just take a shot at it. Yeah, I'm not I'm not afraid.

I've got a couple of small Kando owners. How about this? Oh, I actually Katt go with Kane Doe real quick, well, real quick, I said, Kane Dolo is kind of my Lenor of the the edge guys, because Kando is a guy who was, you know, better off early in his career, a very highly touted prospect and just didn't it just didn't work down the stretch at Florida State for whatever reason.

So Lenoran Kandoe to me, I've kind of thinking about those guys in the same way, highly touted prospects who just had a good career early on it just kind of faded away through their college career. Kane Doe is a guy who I really do like. I think overall, now, a couple of small school corners, one of which I know you already liked, Jeff because of the Senior Bowl. Actually both of these guys went to the Senior Bowl.

But Robert Rochelle out of Central Arkansas. How about a zero star recruit that came in and was locked down during his time in Mobile. Then Brian Mills transferred to North Carolina's Central from the College of the Canyons, another zero star recruit who was kind of a lockdown corner and cover one during his time playing for North Carolina's Central. Both of them decent in terms of corner length. I mean, they're not going to jump off the page, but they're quick,

they are sticky in coverage. Jeff, I know you like Rochelle. Have you seen Brian Mills as well. I've only seen these guys from Senior Bowl stuff. Yeah. I mean if Bucky is if Bucky's holding out on this Rochelle all twenty two and he wants to shut a little over, I know Bucky. I know Bucky has the plug. If anybody's watching and has that Rochelle twenty two, I need it. He's one of the few guys I haven't seen. I've got a Jeff. Here's here's what I tell Yeah, here's

what I tell you about Rochelle. And here's what is important. Sometimes when you dig in the background. The fact that Rochelle was third in the state and one hundred meters at Louisiana the time is ten eight. What that gives you is like, what you're trying to do is we talk about trying to find these these traits, these redeemable qualities. So he's probably a guy like at his pro day,

four threes, four fours in that range. And then when you look at the fact that he has all of these plays on the ball, so twenty five career breakups, he has ten interceptions, and typically the way that it goes down, guys who get their hands on the ball and college also get their hands on the ball and the pros and so depending upon the style of play, and if we're talking about Dallas specifically, you have to find guys who are comfortable being nose to nose playing

because dan Quinn is going to ask those guys to do nose to noose things, even though it's a hybrid covered three defense. And so Rochelle was certainly fit in there. I know we have this thought with the Cowboys that hey, they want everyone that's six three and stuff like that because of the Richard Sherman. But they played with guys that are five ten. They played with guys that are six foot or whatever. He taps in at like sixty one,

which is certainly long enough. Anytime you can find a big quarter that can run even in a straight line, he is going to give a chance. You take chances on the guys because that speed and that length gives you an opportunity to cover some of those top receivers. Also, like another another name I want to throw out there. I know we probably need to go to break soon, Kyle, Yeah, another guy I just like watched late It's Elijah Griffin

from USC. I'm always down to draft a guy who's the son of Warren g and the nephew of doctor Drane. Let's go. I'm down like whatever. I just want some cool stories, like I'm down for that. This is the next level draft analysis that you get here on the Allas Cowboys dot com Draft shows. We get the relations to famous artists and musical talents up here on the Draft Show. Yeah, let's go ahead and take our first break.

When we come back, we've got a special edition of Twitter on the twenty We're giving out some signed Star magazine draft guides to whoever's questions we answer next. We'll do that right after the break here on the Dallas Cowboys dot com Draft show. Sometimes nothing beats the classic Miller Light The original light beer proved with great taste and only ninety six calories available for delivery. Celebrate responsively.

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Celebrate responsibly. Miller Brewing Company, Milwaukee, Wisconsin. Ninety six calories three point two cards for twelve bounces. Is the Dallas Cowboys dot Com Draft Show. Back here on the Dallas Cowboys dot Com Draft Show, presented by Miller Light. As always, just sixteen days away from the NFL Draft. I know all of you at home are counting down just like we are, and of course you can count down the right way with the Dallas Cowboys Official Star magazine Draft Guy.

You can get it on Dallas Cowboys dot com. You can also find it at the Cowboys Pro Shop as well a both physical and digital copy. Now if you buy the digital version, Unfortunately we can't sign that one. However, we are going to I mean, I guess we could sign it, Jeff with your NFTs. We are going to sign some physical copies and send them out to whoever's questions we answer right now on Twitter on the twenty

on the Twitter there we go. Got it in the background from Chris Beam as always, and we're gonna start things off with bart of us Lee on Twitter. And I like this question a lot because he says, which prospects are the media and the scouts? Furthest Apart on We'll start that with Bucky since I guess you're part of the biggest media outlet that we have here sitting at the table. But what's the biggest difference in media

and scouts right now? Gosh, I want to say the quarterback stuff, like the quarterback stuff with the guys after Trevor Laws, like the Zach Wilson, Mac Jones, Trey Lance justin field stuff. I think that conversation has spired us so far out of control because everyone wants to be right when it comes to the mock drafting stuff. That the stuff that I hear internally with teams and the

fights that I have on Twitter is so crazy. And I think mac Jones is the one because like the mac Jones conversation is really so polarizing in terms of like you can appreciate and recognize what he did at Alabama, but then you also can be like, man, I just still don't see him as like that guy. And you have some scouts that are like, man, I wouldn't take that guy in the first round, and you have others who like rave about him and I think he's the

next coming of Tom Brady or whatever. And it's just such a divide. And because scouts have been separate and apart for pretty much the entire year, you don't have think tank, which is great, but it also leads to more volatility. So I think when we finally get the draft night, Draft Knight is going to blow our mind because I don't know if we really know how people really view these prospects when it comes to putting them

off the board. Jen I couldn't agree more. I think, like Bucky's coming about, like everyone wants to be right on their mocking drafts in the end how many times, And I know there's a few websites that go look at it, but after the draft happens outside of the people who do the bock drafts regularly, how many people even bring it up like this guy was right and this guy was wrong, Like that might come up in inner circles. There's maybe like one aggregator website that keeps

those wreck dude, who cares. I'm not thinking about who mocked whoever correctly. Once the draft is done, you know, you're you're moving on to the next stage of building your team. So like I do think that's very very interesting.

And you know, another player I want to throw out there is you know, I mean, it's it's weird when you talk about like media because I don't always follow like a ton of media when it comes to this stuff, Like you get your people that you follow kind of and then you're kind of like, you know, there's a lot of stuff I kind of blow out when I'm tracking the draft. Um but like I did see like the Senior Bowl. Um uh, guy, let's I don't know what his title is, but as Jim Naggy, what the

director executive director? Yeah, director, Yeah, that's the word I'm looking for. And he had this big tweet about Divine Diablo talking about him going in you know on day two and I said, yeah. I mean, I like Divine Diablo, but I didn't necessarily see him as a guy who would be a you know, I know he's your guy. I know he's your guy. I know he's your guy. But I had executively see Divine Diablo as a top one hundred player. This year's drag full there, lay full there.

So you know, well, we'll see in your door and talk bad about the things in your life. Do I don't do that? Okay, so let's just you can. Oh, let's just be cool about Dio player. Everybody is so thrown off because he's a two hundred and thirty pounds safety. It's not his fault that he's able to carry that weight and silver in a four four. Why don't you back off a little bit, my guys staying two player William alone. Just don't make him cover and he's fine.

Just don't make him cover. Who made that up? I did? Stop making stuff up. It's like justin fields one right thing. Don't pretend my guy can't cover. My guy can cover. You chill out on to buy Diablo given to me. You don't need him, you don't deserve him. I don't

want him. What are some of the guys at least, that you think that the scouts in the media are furthest apart on, Well, I would like to take this opportunity to admit to the world that it took me a long time to get a hold of twenty twenty USC tape and um, like, I think that this topic is really tough because I don't really know how NFL teams feel about these players, and honestly, I don't care

how media feels about these players. I think if you watch these guys, then what other people think shouldn't matter. Like KAT can honestly feel how every once about a player, and I will, and it doesn't bother me in the slightest And however they turn out, his however they turn out. But I think the narrative seems to be that Pinay Soul is the crown jewel of the offensive line class.

And I gotta tell you, I actually think three guys belong in that conversation, and I know that Bucky is onto one of them because I saw him in a mock draft and I was like, Oh, that's interesting. And then I watched the twenty twenty tape of Elijah Vera Tucker and as I'm watching it and I'm tweeting about it, people are wait till you get to organ and he gets destroyed, And I'm like, I'm actually three quarters of the way through Oregon and all my notes are about

how good he is. So I don't know who created this narrative. They're like, he got his butt kicked against Oregon because they've got a nice defensive end who got around him once. And I'm like, wow, we just people just run with whatever somebody told them once upon a time. But Pinay Soul, Rashaw Slater, Elijah Vera Tucker, they're all studs, and so I wouldn't be surprised if for Shawn Slater's the first lineman off the board, like Sewel's an incredible prospect,

but so is Rashawn Slater and Elijah Vera Tucker. I think he's right at their heels. I think that there are some studs in this class. So, Jeff, is funny you talked about that. I have people on the West Coast who've told me they ring very Tucher over Piney Soul believe he's the best guy on the West. They

believe he's the best guy on the West coast. And then I have others who believe that Pinay Seul is a stud that is a twelve year pro and a multiple time All Pro because he's three hundred and thirty pounds at twenty years of age and he can move like a dancing bear on the edge and his best

football as ahead of him. I think a lot of it when it comes to all of those guys, even Rashaun Slater, who I think is a technical marvel, may not be the nastiest in turn visits playing demeanor and disposition, but look from a technical standpoint, he can get it. He can get it done. I think all of it kind of goes with where they plug and play and fit.

Because last year, I remember, the conversation was negative a little bit on Tristan Worse, and then we go and fast forward a year later, everyone's raving about how well Tristan Worse's played. So a lot of it depends on where they go, where they land, and on that line. Because the offensive line is so dependent upon the neighborhood and the neighbors who's playing to the right and left to you, and how do you utilize your help? It matters, and so I think all three of those guys are good.

I think Derenshaw can be in the conversations as a solid guy. I think Tevin Jenkins from Oklahoma State, depending on style of player or whatever. I put Tevin Jenkins in Baltimore's offense, I bet he looks like a pro bowler right away, just right. So a lot of it is, A lot of it is Okay, this is how this

player plays. Man, what would be a great fit for this player in terms of they played the way that he wants to play in those things, because that's really how it comes down to, because that will ultimately determine how these guys are. I don't know if any of these guys are like the transcendent types, where like the Walter Jones or the Larry Allen's that it didn't matter where they played, they're gonna be elite, high level players.

But I think they're all are very very good, and I think they're all are worthy of being in a discussion up at the top of the board. I've really grown on what Tevin Jenkins brings to the table. Out of Oklahoma State. We're showing a ton of highlights of him up on the board at the moment, and a man, they're just nuts. I mean, he's pretty solid whenever to the outside he is. He's a big bully. Okay. So we've got four questions to get to here the next

like seven minutes. So Chris Staff says, outside of Alabama cornerback, which position slash college combo with prior success for the Cowboys is the most logical for them to tap into this draft. And he gave an example because that's kind of tough to keep up with. But like Tyler Beattish and Travis Frederick position player college combo to where you could potentially go and get it. Jeff, you got a guy. I gotta Kyle check this out. Man. At least one

of you is gonna hate this. Maybe on three year gonna hate this, Okay, but you know what, I'm sick and tired to see him. I'm sick and tired to seeing mock draft that have Jalen Waddle going either eleven or twelve. You've had a lot of great success with a Marii Cooper there, the Alabama receiver that you traded for. Why don't you just go ahead and take Jalen Waddle so that the Giants or Eagles don't get to do it all right, I'm talking to you guys next week.

I don't want to hear it. I gotta go, Yeff, I know I love it, but I also love the conversation we were just having. How about Tyrann Smith that Elijah Vera Tucker? Hey, I having fun? Now, aren't we had? Now we're having fun? Can I can? I can? I threw granade? Cantade? Did Jeff not just throw some cow Some cowboy fans will love it? I hate it? But um, how about Notre Dame and a Notre Dame linebacker Jay?

Like I'm just saying, I mean, since they've had so much success with James Smift, why not double dip in the Notre Dame pond and allowed Jay? Okay, and that a linebacker spot. Yeah, you're talking about a Pro Bowl line backer who earned a big second contract. I think you try to bark up that tree again. Let's go, jk Yeah, you know this sounds like this sounds like Captain trade down gets to ride here. If we're picking

between Bara Tucker and j ok Yeah, let's go. Let's get down to fifteen with New England and let's see what happens. Yeah, and Bill clay Born and carry Vincent Lsu Wait, okay, we're reaching yeah, trade sermon, Ohio State running back? How about we use Tennessee's tight end this year? I was gonna say an SEC tight end, Florida's tight end. If Kyle Pitts they wear orange, they're in the SEC, could maybe throw that in there. And in terms of path chets that you have, I know it's totally cheating.

Good question, Chris. I like that. That's fun. We can make a whole Segment's got a guard this year, don't they Bay do? Yeah? Old Bank hey with a Notre Dame guard. Yeah, I like that. Doug Brady asked how does the process work for deciding a trade up slash trade down? When are those conversations had between teams and internally who decides or is it a collective decision? Bucky

probably be the best one to answer that one. You start having conversations after your board is said in terms of the prospects, and you're beginning to try and figure out, Okay, who could be in that cluster or who could be in range, or you go through what we call these mock draft scenarios. Hey, if these four guys are available, like the Cowboys at ten. If these guys are available at six, any of them worth us moving up to get? If I mean, I don't know who would be in

this scenario. Okay, let's just use Calipis because Jerry Jones talked about him. If Calipiz is suddenly available at seven, is it worth talking to the Carolina Panthers or the Detroit Lines to get in that range? What would be willing to give up to get him? Mike McCarthy, If we got him, how we utilize and would that make us better? Or would sitting and picking past or ten make us better? Which guy would make us a better team?

That's the conversation that you have. And if you can convince the decision maker a we're much better team if we have cow Pits over Patricks or ten. If we can make it happy, let's go make it happy. Let's put a phone call. Then, Oh, the phone call was receptive. Are we willing to part with whatever it is? Yes? Because we will be that much better. Dad could be better at the office. Is unstoppable. Yet we don't have to worry about stopping the run because now we're hanging

fifty on them and it doesn't matter. So those conversations and then Bucky, do you guys have the same ones about potentially trading down. Let's just say i'll drop a Cowboys scenario. You're at ten, Patriots want to come and get those fifth quarterbacks still available? Do you sit there and count on your hand. You're like, okay, but how many guys are we good with? Because we got to get to five, because if we can't get to five,

we can get fifteen and lose our guys. Yeah, so you have to have you have to have you have to be comfortable with five guys that you're like, oh, look, these five guys are on the board. We're comfortable with any of those guys, So yeah, we can move back. Or you want to be in a cluster where you're fine with whatever's left if somebody does a surprise pick

ahead of you, or those things. So yes, if there's a cluster of guys available, or a cluster of guys that are similarly graded, and you're like, yeah, I'm fine, we moved down to fifteen, not a problem, We'll pick up an extra whatever. Yeah, you can make that happen. And certainly the Cowboys are going to be in this

bright in the sweet spot of that conversation. Moving on to David Leach's question, I'm gonna start with you on this one, Kat, who are some Day three corners that might be able to make the move to safety, especially if they don't draft a free safety early on. Quinn has experienced moving guys like Kazee and Ricardo Allen. So, I mean, we saw it last year with Reggie Robinson. He was a Day three corner who switched over to safety. It didn't necessarily work out, but Dan Quinn's had a

lot more success with things like that. Do you see anybody in that realm in terms of the cornerbacks that could potentially make the move. I mean there's a lot of guys they think who could do that, But it's something that I would like, like push for immediately. Um. But there's one name I want to throw out there is McPherson, the Texas Tech cornerback, because he has shown that he can play both inside and outside. He can

play man, he can play his own. He's got a pretty good understanding of what to do, and you don't always see that on Texas techs. Uh, you know, got a really bad defense. He didn't have a ton of help at all times. So it's very hard to you know, watch a lot of Texas Tech games and be like, oh, okay, there's a there's a guy standing out here. But McPherson is a pretty good player, um, and he's a guy who could maybe move. He's only got a couple of years. I mean he transferred Penn State, so I had a

couple of years at Tech. Again, we're talking deep day three though, we're talking like, you know, fourth or fifth round there with with with Lindzag McPherson. That's a name. When I was watching him on tape, is kind of going, would he be a guy I can maybe move and let him just kind of roam around in center field. I think that's the type of guy that I like. That's just a name to throw out there because he had a lot of ball into a ball. He had

a lot of ball production last year. Had four interceptions in twenty twenty. In high school, he was insane. He had fourteen interceptions in high school. Should be a bit of a playmaker and then move from Pitts Safe to Tech kind of hurt him, but keep it on. Zach McPherson. He's a guy that hasn't been talked about a ton, and I think he's a potential guy that you could move over to safety. And I think Bucky nailed a

guy earlier, where Sean Wade. I think with the natural name for tips to consider moving to safety, just because my theory on safety, and with all due respect to anybody out there who's playing safety right this second in their car, you can fail your way from corner to safety, and I think that might have just happened to Sean Wade, whereas an outside corner wasn't work in but you'd seen him in the slots, You're like, Okay, is he physical

enough to be a safety. The athleticism, if you've played corners, probably good enough to play safety. Well, what's your spatial awareness like? So I think Sean Wade's probably the shot in the dark, fourth or fifth round guy where you say, maybe we're gonna play him in the slot, Maybe we're gonna see if he can play safety and what does

that look like? Yeah, I like the name. I think Sean Wade because it showed up if you go back and you watch that game versus Clemson two years ago in the playoffs where you got kicked out for the hit. I think he was inside and doing some of those things. It's a different skill set. If you talk about a transition, meaning converting a corner to free safety, I think it was interested. As it relates to dan Quinn Demontez. He had so many interceptions as a college corner, seventeen or

eighteen interceptions. Why he was at San Diego State, he was two time Mountain West Defensive Player of the Year because he could get his hands on the ball. In a perfect world, if you think about moving someone to a centerfield safety type, you want someone who can get the ball like that. I don't know if there's a player in the draft this year that kind of has

that capability. But it's different because the job description is not an easy transition, asking a guy to go from on the island to playing in the middle, because he not only has to now see the entire field, but he also has to be a tough enough dude to come up and smack Zeke Elliott when he breaks through the hole. And every corner isn't built for that life because that life is completely different. It's a different job description.

Coming down, he'll kind of deal with those bangers that are running through, so they have to exhibit enough toughness and physicality at the outside while also having some ball awareness and ranged to be able to do it. So they may be speed deficient, but man, the toughness and physicality has to be there. You can't make the move. Bucky, I've got a guy that fits that mold. But he also played a little bit of free safety in college. He went back and forth between corner and free safety.

Israel Mukuamu from South Carolina. He's a little bit longer than I think he would want. He's like six to four. I mean, he's a huge corner, but he's only two hundred and twelve pounds. He's quick enough. He didn't run a forty, so I can't really pull up that number, but he's quick enough on tape to be ranging. I know, I know there's a regional reason for that. But he led the team and interceptions, and remember this is a team that had JC horn on it. Led the team

and interceptions in each of the last two seasons. He had one start in twenty nineteen a free safety, three starts in twenty twenty in just six games, but he also played corner throughout the rest of those games that he opted out toward the end of the season. He's a guy who I know is listed as kind of one of those tweeter guys between corner and safety because I've seen it on boards throughout the league, and I've also seen it on things like this where he did

play both free safety and corner. So that's another name I wanted to throw out there really quickly. Final question, if I can bring up my notes again here on my laptop. Coach Forte one of our favorites on Twitter, he said, doesn't get talked about him much, but what are some of the late round running backs Dallas could look at? Pollard is in year three of four deal and then Zeke is of course Zeke good and bad. So there's some back and forth there from the running

back spot. Jeff, have you seen any running backs? I know you hate watching quarterbacks, so does Kat, but have you seen any tale Algie Harris saw? I saw Nagie Harris play live this year. I saw both North Carolina backs play live this year, and I saw the Clemson back play live this year, and they're all pretty good. I wouldn't draft any of them, Bucky, I'd wait until about the fourth or fifth round and just pick a guy because they're just running backs. Show to me, oh man,

that's so just. I wouldn't. I wouldn't. I wouldn't wait till the fourth But I do believe the sweet spot is anywhere day two you can get a running back. There's so many running backs that are good that can be productive that I don't think you have to really go outside of it. I love Nagieris, I like Javonte Williams, Travis Attend. But I can make a case that a rather than take those guys early, I could take a

Colin Hill and have similar production. You know, Um, I can take other guys Tray Sermon, if Trey Sermon's healthy, I can have similar production. It's about really being able to take the player and understand, here's how we playing, this is what we want to do. So I don't need to go crazy for a running back. But I would say the same thing. I wouldn't go crazy over a wide receiver either. Though. My running back pet Cats

Kenneth Gainwell because he's also a wide receiver. Um No, he's really not technically a wide receiver, but he can do it. Um and I I just love that he's a great pass catcher. So, um, but you said the guy said day three, right, the guy said, Day three? How about Elijah Mitchell Louisiana runs a four three one forty allegedly, So uh, you know like that that that explosive take it to the house type. Let's go. Let's go to Jaquan Hardy from Tiffin University, the Tiffin Dragons.

That's my day three guys to look out for. How about that? And good luck trying to find Tiffin tams. Yeah, yeah, good luck trying to find it. It's funny, you say, Kenneth Gainwell, Katie, we've had some success with Memphis running backs that are kind of wide receivers in college as well. So hey, maybe we're going back to Chris Staff's question earlier in the segment. Thank you so much for sending

in some fantastic Twitter on the twenty questions. We'll be sure to send out those magazines to you that we answered questions from today. We'll answer five more questions on Thursday show with Brian brought us David Hellman and of course Dane Brugler, so we'll have those sent out for those answered as well. But when we come back here on the Draft Show is the GPS, the new age of scouting and drafting. We'll talk about it next on

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Cowboys dot Com Draft Show. We've got some fun enter DFW rivalries brewing on this show, and I love it. And it's brewing in the middle of the break. Jeff Kavanaugh, Kevin KT Turner, We've got Bucky Brooks, some Kyle Yeoman's final couple minutes and really quick Jeff, Uh. We wanted to bring up this article from The Athletic. Jordan Rodrigue was the one that, uh that wrote this. I hope I said that last name right. She does fantastic work at the Athletic, but I didn't. I bet I didn't either.

It looks like Rodriguez, but without a Z, so it's almost like Rodrigue. I tried to look up the pronunciation. I'm sorry if I got it wrong, Please tell Okay rod week Away. Uh deep dive into the changes made by the Rams in the draft process. Jeff, give us a summary over this article that you can go find

on the Athletic. But it really was interesting as to how less need Sean McVay and his entire staff did not hit the road for this college football season and this draft process and how it really hasn't changed a whole lot for them. Yeah, so they basically in reading through the basically the RAMS this year. You look around at the Senior Bowl, or you look around at a pro date, it's like, hey, where are the Rams? The RAMS aren't going anywhere. And the answer to it, according

to less Neat, is well, you had the pandemic. And he's like, and honestly, we kind of don't need to.

And I love this thought process by NFL teams, whether you agree or disagree with any individual sort of action, but they're thinking right now is are we better served going out to every individual thing or we better serve being at the combine watching people jump into forties and interviewing players, or would we be better served spending way less time getting way more tape watched and we'll still be able to interview these players on zoom and we'll

have an hour with them where they're more comfortable instead of fifteen or twenty minutes where they're surrounded by twelve of us and they're coached on their answers. So I think it's just the RAMS using the pandemic as an opportunity to go okay, But let's also re examine the way that we do everything. Are we doing all these things because it helps us or because it's the way it's always been done. They said, the most important thing that the combine is the medicals. Our doctors are there,

we're doing the doctor stuff. We're giving the medicals, but we have GPS tracking from their college games. I don't need to be there to watch them run a forty. I'll get the numbers from their vertical jump. I don't

need to be there. So instead of sending a giant contingent to everything, they're letting the information come to them and saying, essentially, we think that we can do it as good or better in a less amount of time and have time to do other things by doing it this way, which I thought was fascinating and I thought would be a great question for Bucky, who's been a part of the NFL process. Are those changes something where the rams are smart and just asking themselves honest questions

and evaluating themselves or are they missing out? No? No, I think it's really smart, and I think it's part of a thing that was trending before the pandemic. The pandemic only accelerated it years before we started seeing teams keep their scouts away from the combine, not only because the cost, because instead of sending ten to twelve guys instead of combine for that, it like, what are you gathering? The event now is on TV, you get all the official numbers, So what is it that you're really doing

outside of the interviews? The pandemic gave us the opportunity to see that, oh, we can do virtual things. We can conduct interviews via zoom and get the same stuff out of it. In fact, we can have multiple interviews with a prospect and really get to know them as opposed to the hard sit down at dinner or at the combine and those things. And then when it comes to grinding on the tape, yeah, that's the most efficient way.

If you want to be accurate in terms of the draft, you have to put more time in when it comes to studying the tape. The other stuff takes away from that time that you can devote to film study. So I applaud the Rans for being able to do it. The final thing that you brought up was the GPS. I knew that the GPS thing was a big deal last year when they drafted Van Jefferson. I think van Jefferson after the Senior Bowl might have had an ankle

clean up, so they never got an official forty. But they say they were fine because they had all of his GPS stuff from his time at Florida and they actually found out that he was faster than me, and he speculated based off of game action speed as opposed to the manufacturer speed that can be produced on a prodem And it's like reading that article, you still are reminded that article that the tape is still a paramount.

And then you use all these things and there's a quote in there that I like, and I like when this stuff like almost translates to like real life as well, just for the common person like myself. But they said, is there a reason we're doing this? Are we doing this because it's the way it's always been, or we should we change up the way we do things, and like every company in the world's thinking about this, or Okay, do we really need this huge building? Do we really

need everyone in the building? And I think that's really fascinating. You got an NFL team out here just saying how do we work more efficient? And you know, there's a thing we were talking about waiting certain testing scores, you know, for a different position, like for instance, the forty yard dash for a linebacker, that doesn't mean a ton to me.

I need to know how he can change direction, you know, and things like that, and like that's I like tell they talked about how they were kind of for different positions or for different things that were looking for, whether it be like a slot type of guy working over the middle of the field. They wanted to kind of a bigger slot working in the middle of the field,

and Cooper Cup it didn't really bother them. The Cooper Cup didn't run a four four forty, And I thought that was really interesting somebody how they kind of waited things differently for what they were looking for and certain players.

I think, I think that is interesting, and I think it's always been a thing, like wanted to polarizing prospects that people have kind of beat up on, and rightfully so like Gregor Rousseau, like his pro day workout, I think he ran four seven four four seven eight, but his ten time was faster than the overwhelming majority of the pass rushers in the draft. And so when you think about first step quickness and explosiveness, how well does

that translate to sack production in those things. Forty times and vertical jumps typically correlate. So when you're looking at your dbs with their arm length and those guys that run fast and jump high, man covered, those are man covered corners and that stuff. So all those drills certainly play your part in the evaluation. You have to understand what batter your drills translates for which positions. It took us until a minute over time for us to mention

Gregory Rousseau in this podcast. Whenever we know that Bucky Brooks is very high on Gregory Rousseau and Jeff Cavanaugh is very well, oh are you not like like I like has created a place I'm not fight about things and I'm cheering for literally everyone to do well. I hope Rousseau. No, no, well, I didn't talk of him as the first ten picks. I was just like, I don't see no, no, and I don't see him. I don't see him like that. I think the main thing I saw him in a light that is more like

Jason Pierre Paul. When Jason Pierre Paul was coming out of South Florida, meaning Jason Pierre Paul was an unknown who had only played nine games, and the Giants gambled on his traits and they were rewarded after he played with Jet Justin Tuck and O Humanu or whatever. Rousseau to me is similar in that vein because look, man, this is a high school safety wide receiver whatever. I don't know if he's tough enough to live down on that line of scrimmage in that life, but the traits

are intriguing. So in a class where you don't have any proven dudes, you tend to gamble on traits over the other stuff. I should say that none of the ad drushers or offensive tackles offensive vironement in this draft could hang with King Kong versus Godzilla. That fight was incredible, Like you don't need any pass rush moves in that fight. They're just beating the crap out of each other. And I think everyone should go watch it because it us

shout out to Mathra, here you go. You got just like Godzilla making a swim move over King Kong and getting back to the putting pressure on the quarterback. I think it's something that we need to look at. Maybe his vertical and three cone are a little more important than what we thought previously. Whenever that battle comes around, Zilla Godzillas gained a lot of agility since I saw it twenty years ago. It's good point point c G. I'll do that. Yes, yeah, big hips and think about Godzilla.

You know, get those short arms. Yeah, I didn't have to reach we got cong said. That's why I started talking about King Kai. I know he gave it. He gave it a nice little way for me to get out of here, all right. Special thanks to Chris Beam in the bag for Jeff kavanaf, Bucky Brooks, Kevin K. T. Turner. Will see you on Thursday. Just four more draft shows till the Draft. Will see you next time. This has been a production of Dallas Cowboys dot Com and the Dallas Cowboys Football Club.