Draft Show: Changing the Evaluation Process

we're ninety nine days away from the NFL Draft. It's officially double digits, and we've got a ton of draft news to break down, as really the combine nixt yesterday. We're gonna talk it and break it all down here for you on the Dallas Cowboys dot Com Draft Show. So glad you're along with us here on this Tuesday. Hope you enjoyed a very fruitful and long weekend as well. Bucky Brooks joining us, David Hellman, and then of course the great Brian brought us who was in the open

there and Brian, you're you're wearing the LSU. I got to watch a little trip. Brill Cox this week did a little film study on him. I know, even Dave, you're you're wearing some captain trade down gear. I can't really see what Bucky's wearing, but I know it's probably something that is along the lines of North Carolina. But no, no, he's got to be a real TV guy today, So he's got it right. He leaves this low paying job to go to a better paying job, is what it is.

That makes a lot of sense. I would wear the NFL shield if that were the case. To Bucky, I'm right there with you. But I like the captain trade down shirt. Dave. I mean, you're rocking it at the moment. Does that mean you're officially on captain trade Doown's right hand? I mean, are you on the horse next to him? I mean, honestly, if you want me to be honest, I just was in a rush to get dressed, and my hair was a mess too, so I was like, what can I put on that will be company acceptable?

So the draft T shirt and the Cowboys hat felt like a good way to go. It's funny, Dave, you know who you remind me of the way you dress John Snyder, same thing John Snyder would always come into meetings like he was just like you just got him out of a bar. You know, I was not in the bar aside, where's Michigan Baseball? Hat? A T shirt and flip flops and jeans, And he'd come into meeting and he'd knock you dead by setting the board up.

Then we're just we're just four bros talking drafts. Adequate. Hey, at least he compared you to a GM and a good one at that, instead of maybe a hobo. So I guess that's a that's a huge upgrade for David Helmet already. But well, guys, we do have to break down some NFL combine news. And I mean, depending on who you ask, it's sad or it's good, or it's

really it's really expected. It is probably the best way to say it is expected overall, because yesterday the NFL informed teams via a membo obtained by NFL Networks Tom Pella Sero that the NFL counting combine is officially changing formats. No in person workouts the combline will instead take place

in the workouts at the combine will take place. I had different colleges pro days the interviews and psychological testing will be virtual, and there will be limited in personal medical exams, which we all know by this point and we've talked about it previously in other years that the medical examinations are the most important part about the combine

for these front offices. But Bucky, this is the first time that you haven't been out of combine since what two thousand you were saying in the pre share twenty years. How is this going to change the way that this draft is ultimately done just based off of the fact that you don't have that evaluation week. Yeah, No, it'd

be vastly different. I know they're gonna do some virtual interviews and dare take care of the metal stuff, but it'd be first time the guys will really go without the in person workhouse, and I know a lot of times we don't place a lot of stock in that, but it's the first time that coaches and some of the scouts will have an opportunity to see some of

these top prospects. Because when you're in your area, you know about your area, but you may not know what's in other parts of the country, and so the exposure will be a little different. It will put a lot on these personnel departments to go out and to make these pro day visits. There was a time where we were seeing more people kind of scale back on some of the pro DA attendants. Well, now you'll see general managers and top personnel people criss crossing across the country

to get this done. So it will change the evaluation process a lot, but the teams that really do their due diligence on the tapework won't be adversely effective by not being able to see these guys in person. Yeah, this is going to be a tough one for the guys. You know, we always look at the combine is a great way of gathering information and more importantly the medical information.

You know, these scouts can do a good job of helping each other out when they go to these pro days, you know, and the colleges over the years have done a better job of scheduling them where they're in the area where you don't have multiple pro days overlapping each other. So the logistics and coordination of that is going to be huge going forward. Though, I do worry about the medical aspect of what's going to be about to happen Indianapolis.

With the hospitals they have the MRI tubes, all those things that were available to these teams to be able to get their medical information, you know, is now going to have to go some other way. So maybe these teams will the medical departments will set up and as Bucky and Dave would know and Kyle is that, you know, the the teams do share medical information. These doctors do talk to each other and stuff like that. They're in

groups as they work. So if you know, you get an organization where it says, okay, let's have the Texans, the Cowboys, the Saints, the chief maybe have a centrally located medical deal for them. Then they could share their information with all the other teams and then they could do it likewise around the country. So logistically it's it's

gonna be difficult. But the one thing that these NFL, the Scouts personal departments have been able to do over the years is adapt to whatever change they have to make. I just this feels like this. I mean, I know, you know, the big news, it's big news that the format's changing, but it just honestly, it feels like another

challenge to what they were already facing. Like it just it keeps happening to these scouts, like, this is going to be such an unprecedented draft process because, like you know, typically by the time you get here, you know, the area scouts have watched these guys for a couple of years, they've been on these school calls, they've talked to their sources,

they've been to games. None of that has necessarily happened this year, Like you know, it's been harder to go to the games, it's been harder to have access to the college's facilities, it's been harder to get you know, get a good grasp on these guys other than just watching tape, which is nice, but none of that other stuff is as easy to get, like like finding out what type of guy a prospect is, knowing his background,

having some familiarity with him. And every year, every year now, I mean to Brian's point, there are always guys that have medical issues crop up at the combine, that is a given, and then every year you can always tie a team. You know, the combine is like maybe where you make your first contact, where a team really decides that they're interested in They're like, all right, we're gonna do some private workouts with this guy. We're gonna have

them to the facility. You know, Dak Prescott is a really famous one that was really where he first popped up on the Cowboys radar, and and it's just it's it's scary to think that they don't have access to any of that stuff this year and you're basically going to be going off of game tape and you know, whatever zoom meetings you can schedule, and that's just that's

not a lot of information to go on. Well, yeah, I think to me, also, the thing that is going to be interesting is there a lot of these players are going to facilities to work out to get ready that we're going to get ready for the combine. And you know, will the NFL allow scouts like Bucky Brooks to go on the road and go to these facilities, whether it's in Los Angeles, down in Florida, Tampa area wherever, Orlando. Dallas has a big workout facility where a lot of

players go. You know, maybe that's the way that some of these scouts, the area scouts get around having to go to workouts and stuff, because you get these guys that'll hold these pro days potentially at these workout facilities.

And if that's the case, maybe that'll maybe that'll alleviate some of the problems that they might have getting to the school as we get through the spring, you know, Runt, Yeah, I want to bring this up real quick because like, the combine kind of gets laughed at for a lot

of things, right, they talk about the unnecessary work. But one thing that will come up is we won't have official measurements on anybody like that will be a huge change, and for teams that are really standardized in terms of you have to hit certain benchmarks to be considered on our team, like it changes. For so long we've heard voices talking about, well, I don't understand why don't they don't have laser times everywhere and scouts, old school scouts

have always said because lasers aren't portable. My stopwatch is portable. That's why I go about my time because I can take that anywhere and I know what that is where. Now, without official times at the combine, without being able to see it, you are really beholding to what your area scout does in terms of time measurements and also the

background information. If they're not experiencing they don't have contacts in the building, you will have some voids in your value wishing process because you really won't know this kid that you'd probably bring it in. And that's one of the biggest worries I think about this virtual process, Bucky and Brian you alluded to it as well. But I mean, there are one hundred and fifty schools that are hoping

that players are going to get drafted from them. Right, there's not one hundred and fifty days until the draft, So all of these pro days that are going to be held virtually at these different departments, in different schools or across the country, and then there's gonna be extra pro days, like Bucky just mentioned about at these these workout facilities, and Brian talked about it in Dallas and

in Tampa, in all these different spots. So how do you have that uniformity when you're gonna have probably a school pro day and then you're gonna probably have an annex pro day where you're gonna put these these scouts

in these players on display again. But you've got to have those times and those measurements to be uniform because at the same time, like you said, Bucky, it's not going to be the same moving forward, No, it won't be the same, And you know, like it's already difficult enough to try and make some of these determinations, and a lot of times we want to put the h down by the time we get to the combine, like, hey, let your grade, but your grade and don't be impacted

by the combine in terms of seeing a fast time. And maybe it makes you kind of see like an illusion when you're watching the tape. I think this will be challenging not only for the guys that played this year, but what in the world do you do with the opt outs? Yeah, so the guys who have opted out and you haven't seen in a year and a half, you have no idea what they look like. You don't

have official times on them. I think it becomes an even scarier proposition at the top of the board to take some of these guys who haven't played, because you really won't know anything about them when it comes to

standard protocols for evaluation that we've used in the past. Yeah, last night, guys, I was watching the Sanders kid, the defensive end from Cincinnati, and on tape, he doesn't look two hundred and fifty eight pounds, you know, but if you look at the measurables from the school and some of the things that you were able to gather. It says he's a two hundred at the eight pound player.

And I just wonder how many other scouts are going through this right now where they're looking at this speed, they're looking at a height, they're looking at a way, and they're thinking, does that guy really look like he's two hundred and fifty eight pounds? And you know, you have to really you got a hope right now and

a lot of these evaluations. Bucky brought it up. There's some teams that are measurable teams, you know, and their whole scouting process is based on measurables, and so you know, hopefully you know, number one, they can get the medical and number two, like Buck he said, you could get the height, way and speed. As long as the scouts have those things, I think their eyes will tell them what the type the player is, just as long as

they have the measurables to put with the player. I'm telling you right now, don't don't put any stock in measurables that you're getting from a college. That that is a dangerous proposition, which absolutely, yeah, it's it's a small thing. But I was actually writing a story yesterday about some of the Cowboys dbs, and you know some free agent dbs around in the league, and I go, like, you know all the combine measurements. They're archived on the internet.

Obviously you can go back and look at them, and that's what I use, Like, anytime I need to write about a player, I'm like, let me go find the combine numbers, because I promise you any team, roster, college, or pro is going to try to lie to you. And so it sounds like a little thing, but you think about the fact Dan Quinn loves taller cornerbacks with long arms. That should sound familiar from Christopher Shard's tenure in Dallas as well. Well, have fun getting the accurate

measurements of heighten arms without without a combine. I mean, hopefully they can find a way to pull it off. But it's just another another thing that you have to worry about in a year that's full of them. Obviously. Well, and you've been open about the fact that the opt out scare you a little bit, and I'm right there

with you. I think whenever it comes to a player who has not played in twenty twenty, this makes things ultimately tougher, like Bucky was mentioning a little bit ago, but what does this do for your comp a level, Dave, and trying to get these measurements and trying to figure out how these players are going to test whenever they haven't actually put film on the field in over twelve months. I mean, I don't I don't have I don't know

what's going to happen. But I have a solution. If I wasn't opt out, If I was an opt out and I was confident in myself, I would I would put together a real and send it around to these guys, Like you know, I'm thinking of my guy Jumar Chase at the top of my mind. Obviously, if I were him, I would put myself on film running the whole route tree at my training center. I would do a filmed

way in, a filmed measurement, all that stuff. Like any information that I can get to a team, I would just send it around to every team in the league and be like, here's what I've been working on, Here's what I can do, Here's how tall I am, here's my arm measurements, blah blah blah. Especially you know, in

the case of a guy like him. You shouldn't have anything in to hide anyway, So you know, maybe that's a way around it where you know, some of these guys can be you know, proactive and get some of that information out there to help teams out. I think they're going to be a lot of scouts that are very crafty on the way they do things I do. I scouts will not be denied. You know, you think that you're roadblocked here, you will figure out a way to go around that roadblock to get what you need.

You know, that's your job, you know, and you know you don't want to you don't want to do anything illegal or anything like that or try and get in trouble, but you will do whatever you have to do. I mean, the story of Gil Brandt running a kid in a forty yard dash in an airport terminal is anything you need to know right there. That that is meet me at the terminal. I know you don't have an indoor facility.

It's cold outside. I'll run. I'll mark forty yards off in this terminal and you can take off running and we'll get a time. So you know, you know, pull chalk on the end of a finger, doing a vertical measuring that off. You will do whatever you have to do to get those numbers for your organization. And that's the great beauty about being a scout is when you hear the word no, you say yes and you keep going.

You know, Brian and thinking about that, and I'm sure at some point we will talk about the Senior Bowl, but you talk about the advantages that the kids will have next week, those that participate in the Senior Bowl, and they're able to kind of create that lasting impression on the eyes in the minds of scouts and evaluators that is going to carry significant favor. And I just believe that this year is unlike any other year where you don't get a chance to see guys play ball,

and so private workouts will be important. But their limitations on private workouts and what you're able to do when some agents in recent years have kind of held back on exposing their guys to too many private workouts because if you get into doing a private workout, you're at jeopardy, and so it just makes it very, very challenging in the midst of a pandemic where you have COVID optouts or whatever, like the creamer rise to the crop when

it to the top, when it comes to evaluators. But man, you're talking about so many obstacles and things that will prevent you from doing your job and doing it the way that we've always done it. I'm saying I'm saying this with tongue in cheek, though, I'll draft all the opt out players. If you guys want to take all the guys that played this year, I'll take all those opt out guys by the way that let them dropt

to you, let them ball the best players. So yeah, you get you can take all these guys have played this year, all those opt out guys, gonna string them to me. I'll be just fine drafting those guys well, and you're bound to hit one or two of those. I mean, the draft is a crap shoot. Anyways, we've talked about that before. You it's it's you're trying to gather this information to make your guests a little bit more educated than it normally would in any certain circumstance.

And Brian, you were talking about how these scouts are gonna have to get creative. I think there's gonna be to have to be creativity from the school's perspectives on how they're gonna live stream because Bucky's talking about crossing country and all these scouts going different spots and different schools all over the place. But at the same time, you want to limit your travel for the safety of your coaching staff and the safety of your scouting department. Well,

the way you do that is live stream. So I'm asking you, Brian, do you expect to see live streamed events where scouts can set up with a monitor and watch these pro days virtually, maybe even multiple pro days at one time. Yeah. I think one of the great things, and this is credit to Bucky and what those guys do at the NFL Network, is when they go live to show workouts. I mean you could actually sit out and watch the workout and feel like you're getting something

out of that. You know. That's that's the great thing about now watching the combine on TV. You could actually watch guys move, you could run back to what you saw, you know, all these things. There's ways of getting around this, uh, you know clearly, And I do believe that the schools are going to have to now depending on their rules. I mean, usually schools are very welcoming, They're like, hey, come on, we love to have you. They make the pro day a big thing. They have barbecues, they have

you know, dinners, whatever. They you know, they try to do the best they can for their players and for the scouts, and you know, but now it's gonna be about, Okay, how can we take our TV production department? How can we take our video department and film these things. The thing we have to make sure of though, that there

may be there one or two scouts. They're conducting the workouts, making sure the forty yard dash has completely measured the right way, making sure the three cones set up the right way, making sure the vertical jump is conducted the right way. You know, if I was, if I was running a department, I think this is what I would do once I knew the schedule. And I know, Dave, you're gonna hate my idea. I'm getting a mobile home. I'm getting a bus, and I'm just driving from a

location to location to location, is what I'm doing. I'm putting three scouts in every bus. And you know we're gonna we're gonna make this trip around our area. You know, going to these schools is what we're gonna do. Well, Market in the parking lot at the stadium. You know, we'll stay there, we'll set up, we'll do the protest,

we'll go to the next thing. But maybe it's just an easy way just to travel my guys going from school to school, but having multiple guys there to make sure that you cover the workout, like you completely need to. Why don't you just admit that you're an unrepentant junkie for a road trip. It's like, I love the road trip, you know, I love the road trip. But I love the fact that if they told me, if they told me I could do a workout at Miami, then I could go do a workout at Central Florida. Then I

could go do a workout at South Florida. Then I could go to Florida State Florida. You know, I mean that, that's me. That's what I would love to do. And I'm just trying to think without my scouts having to travel through airports, you know, just drive them through that area though. But I'm yeah, I'm not driving an RV, Like who's d I'm driving the RV. I see yourself. You talk itself, like what we're going to do? Hey, let me tell you what this. You could. You could

set this thing up. You could you could do film work in the back. You could get your notes together. One guy could drive, the others could work. You could set things up. There's a productive way of doing this that sounds miserable to me. That is that is Brian's Brian's dream in life is to just be the permanent driver on like an eighty hour road trip. And I do not understand it at all. Hey, I'm gonna get my area completely done well. Everybody else is not yet.

Everyone else is scrambling around trying to travel restrictions. I'm driving my area and I'm just gonna stay in my little area and I'm gonna I'm gonna do a great job there. Guys, when these teams through this idea though you watch you heard it first year on the Draft Show, We're gonna see a bunch of bunch of RV film and media availability and things of a stable drive, and

you can study these players, you never know. If Bucky wasn't so against it, I would just we would just expense it to Derek and get the Draft Show on the road and get all seven great idea. I just I just don't want to drive and so if you're gonna tell me we're gonna have a rock star bus and we're gonna do it like that, and I'm gonna have amenities and and all of those things, like right, but I have this this vision of a Winnebago where we're just all crampy and yeah, we're like, oh no,

three weeks, that's what Brian wants. I've done it. I've done that. I could actually I could cook. I could cook. We could have Cajun meals all the whole time. This would be the best. Let's go. Sure, I'm right there. I'll be a co pilot, Brian. I'll be right there

in the passenger seat. How about that? Oh man, Well, I'm gonna continue driving the bus here rather on the show, we're gonna take a break, and after we come back, we're gonna go into Twitter on the twenty a ton of good questions to get to, lots of prospects and of course some fallout from the NFL combine news and of course the Senior Bowl coming up now. Seek like Buck, you mentioned, when we come back, you're on the Dallas

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with the Dallas Cowboys dot com Draft show. The plans of a road trip continue to blossom here in the break and continue on here on a Tuesday morning, Glad you're with us, Kyle Yeoman's Brian brought us, Bucky Brooks, David Hellman with you here from our virtual SWBC Mortgage studios. It's time now for some Twitter on the twenty Twitter on the twenty, and of course the Cowboys having to keep a close eye on what's happening around the league. And that's what our first question has to do with.

From Matt Thomas, he said, with the Deshaun Watson situation and the type of return he may bring in regards to what they should do with Dak in a possible trade, This is I just wanted to kind of put this out there, Bucky or actually looks, let David Hellman take this is talking about keeping it on on Deshaun Watson. We had to do that with the contract previously. But is there any way that picks and things like that could potentially come into play for the Cowboys and what

they could do with Deck. We're talking about, like trading Dak to Houston for Deshaun Watson. Is that I don't know if it's directly talking about that. I think it's mostly just what the options are for Deck Prescott Well, I mean, I just those those things can't be related. I don't think unless you're like getting Deshaun Watson and that. I mean, that's my whole thing is, if you're gonna take on that kind of contract in Houston, why not

just pay the guy that you already have. And I mean, and I've seen I've seen people suggest, you know, a straight up player for players swap. I doubt that's happening because Houston needs draft picks. Like the whole reason Houston would try something like this is because they have no draft capital. So trading straight up Dak for DeShawn just it doesn't make any sense to me because I think

they're basically the same player. So you're getting rid of one guy for Dak, you still don't have any draft picks, and then the Cowboys are just in the same spot they were, which is paying a lot of money for a quarterback that not everybody's sold on. So I don't think it makes a ton of sense. I think it's far more logical to just pay the guy that's already here,

that you have a history with. I think I think mostly as I'm reading this question again, I think he's talking about the value of Dak Prescott and the fact that he hasn't had the long term deal yet, and of course that's still going to continue throughout the offseason. Oh mostly mostly the value you could get from Watson and how that compares the Dak Prescott in terms of draft options and draft capital that you could attain if

you're the Dallas Cowboys. I got you. That's my bad. Well, I think the conversation for a franchise quarterback, for me, the conversation starts for multiple ones, especially like you talk about, you know, that's that's what the franchise tag dictates. Anyway, if a players on the tag the um, then you're you know, you got to trade two first round picks to get him, So that's where it starts. I would probably try to get a little bit more, but it's hard to say for sure because these types of trades

almost never happened. Like, when was the last time a franchise quarterback was traded in his prime? Bucky, Brian, You guys, I don't know if it's ever been done, Like I don't know if I don't know if you've ever seen it done at all. I think the Deshaun Wasson thing is fascinating me because I think it's great for us. I think his great sports talk radio fodder. But he has a no trade class is he hasn't even got

into the big money of the deal yet. And if I'm the Houston Texans, why would I even entertain trading a franchise quarterback. They're so hard to find, and so I know they don't have picks and all that, and we all love what's behind door number one and two, But I have a quarterback. It is easy to start

when I have a quarterback. Then when I don't have one, Yeah, I think I think the conversation about Dak needs to happen the league year starts, I believe March twelfth or some day around that, and you know, the Cowboys have had the opportunity to visit with Dak Prescott and at least exchange ideas since the season's been over, and maybe when the new league year starts, then that's the momentum.

Then it's like, Okay, this deal's done, let's go forward, let's get it signed, and now we can start the offseason like it needs to be had. But I do feel like, though, that if you get to the first of April and you don't have an extension done with Dak Prescott, then some of our draft shows need to

be about talking about what quarterbacks are available. That that's that's what that is reality there, because if you can't get this done by the time you draft, then you have to be thinking, like, I don't know if this is going to get done long term. I've got to maybe move on and try and make something else happen here. That would be the only time. It's either sign Dack or trade Dac. That's that's that's there's no in between

for me. But really, my drop dead date is really the first of April, and if I don't have it done by then, I'm starting to I'm starting to talk to teams about our situation here with the Cowboys. I'll throw this in. This is just off the top of

my head. If you want Dak Prescott, if you're another team and you want Dak, I need two firsts at least, so I need this year's first, next year's first, then probably also your second round pick in this year's draft, and a starter caliber player that's on your roster right now, preferably a Pro Bowl caliber player. That's like, that's my

starting point. Yeah, well, yeah, I think yeah, there's yeah, you definitely you're definitely gonna need the first this year because you're gonna need to take that one potentially and go back up in the draft if you want to get to say Cincinnati at five, you're gonna have to

give them pick forty four. But to really sweeten this thing, if you had an extra one, you can take your ten that one and then elevation that thing and go and get you a quarterback to make sure that you protected yourself going forward because you've made the trade, Bucky, did you think my price was too much or not enough?

I mean that's very very pricing, Like oh yeah, I know, I know, Like, well you gotta look at we know, no, no, we know you can't quarterback to number four, like I get that, but two first, a second and a Pro Bowl player like that is that is a lot. So you know what I'm doing, I'm hanging up and say, you know what, we could try and find it. That's fine, that's fine because I don't I don't want to trade him anyway. That's fine, No, but but but you know,

you gotta protect yourself. I mean, we were the price is, you know, the price is whatever they make it but you know, you gotta look at what it got. Like Laramie Tunsil went for, you got to look for what the guy and I know it's a different position. You got to look at see what you know the guy at the Bears, what what he went for? Yeah. See, so that's where you're starting to That's where you have to sit there and Okay, I need to get this

thing done. I'm not trying to hold people up. I'm trying to trade him, but I'm also trying to get that I'm trying to get two ones out of the deal as my bottom line, because I need the one to get back to where I need to go to get a new quarterback. And so yeah, I mean we could, we could. We could all kind of say, oh, well, that's too much of this. It's someone always is willing

to pay. But you have to make sure that if you're moving on from the quarterback, you have to make it inviting for the other team to be willing to make the deal. You don't want to just hammer it so hard that all of a sudden that nobody wants to do the deal. You know, then you have to come back with hat in hand and try and do this all over again. You want to make sure that's the deal that works for you, works with a player, and then you can you can go from there. So

I think the answer it's a Matt's question. Whenever it came to should the Cowboys keep an eye on Watson situation, the answer is yes, and see what that kind of ransom would be in order to get him out of Houston, And the same thing for dak out of Dallas should things go wrong situationally for the Cowboys in these negotiations as we continue on into the draft process. Okay, this is a good question from Cowboys coffee talk I really like And he said he's a big, big fan of

the show you guys, so he loves you guys. One it is to throw that out there. He said, I'm a big believer in upgrading defensive tackle. However, I am told there's a few difference makers out of a few difference makers outside of maybe a Christian Barmore from Alabama. And do you have any day two defensive tackles that the Cowboys could potentially target Bucky Brooks. You know, like this defensive tackle class is really really weak. Like that's rough.

I mean, it is really it's really rough to say that you can find someone that would upgrade what is currently there in Neville, Gallimore and Antoine was in those guys. If you're going to go, I think, if I'm going to try and upgrade the position, then I'm gonna try and spend the capital to give the guy at the top, and that would be Barrymore. But I'm not gonna take

him at ten. I think he's a guy that should fall in the twenties, um if that, because they have him some concerns because he flashed at the end of the year, but his year was inconsistent in terms of his level of dominance. I'm just a little leary on him and taking him there, and so I think the Cowboys might be better serve to look for the upgrades at d tackle, potentially in free agency as opposed to the draft. Bucky, what did you think about the Washington kid O two E E K. I think, yeah, eak,

I always say these names wrong. Yeah, it was like that le by Osaique from Washington. Did you did you see him at all? Sixty three? Yeah, two hundred ninety palace. He's active, He's able to make and control the line of scrimmage or whatever. The thing about it is like watching guys against PAC twelve lineman is really really hard because how many pros are he playing? Is he really playing against? And so his level of dominance is solid, But I would feel better about him if I saw

him dominant against SEC competition. He's another oddo, a guy who was sipped out. Buddy's a Senior Bowl invite, so he's going to be at the Senior Bowl, so you get to see him there. But he did opt out of the twenty twenty. Yeah. But to Bucky's point, I think, and then there's a kid to a failure. I think you say, you say the kid from USC Yeah, I mean we're okay, we're talking about potential second round type guys. Those would be, you know, a guy I really liked

to like the Nixon kid from Iowa. I think took your point, Bucky, Yeah, it's weak. I think Barmore has helped himself though the last couple of games out. You know, it's like people of like, oh, well, he's gone from a guy that you would take at at twenty five to maybe a guy you would take at fifteen. You know, you know it, maybe he's he's made that kind of jump.

But those two Pac ten kids and again the Iowa kid Nixon, you know, I think those are kind of second round guys that that maybe that you know, that that could go in and play well for somebody. I know watching those Pac twelve kids play that they were they were really active. You know, they were active. They were playing outside the tackle box, they were getting up the field, they were being disruptive tackles for loss, you know,

pressure on the quarterback in the pocket. You know. I both think that those undertackles, those three techniques that you know, cowboy fans and if your team's a four three team, you know, that's that three technique that we're talking about, that undertackle. But those are a couple of names of guys. I mean, again, I butcher names, but if I watch him play, yeah, I kind of saw like second third round kind of talent there myself. Okay, this is actually

this is really timely because he declared last night. But what do y'all think about Tommy and togy I the Ohio State defensive tackle Because I haven't done a deep dive by any means yet, but he kicked Clemson's ass and I have a feeling they missed him dearly against Alabama six two three hundred pounds, played fantastic for Ohio State, which you know, again that's that's a program. You know, there's three or five programs where if you did it at that program, I trust that you can do it

in the NFL, and Ohio States one of them. So he's gonna come into the league fully equipped because Larry Johnson one of the best delone coaches that you've seen. When you look at the work that they've done at Ohio State and the guys that have come out of there, they all play and so from Devon Hamilton to the Stars, Nick bos and all those guys they played, and so yeah, they great hand skills. He's gonna come off. He has a motor, he can control it at the line of scrimmage.

Those are the things that you like. And in a class where it's really hard to distinguish who are the top ones from the others, sometimes you have to lean towards are they scaled, because that's the evaluation. Evaluation comes to talent versus skilled, and the skilled player may give you more pop initially than the more talented player, because when you think about COVID and the lack of reps

and practice time and all those other things. You kind of need a right now player and those who have the skills already are gonna have a chance to play and make an impact right away. Yeah. I think that's a great way to look at this defensive tackle class, because, like we already talked about with the draft, I mean, ultimately you're gonna have trouble trying to figure out the measurables, and defensive tackle is one of the spots where you kind of need those measurables to make at least a pick,

and you need some tape to go with. I think lucky enough for Antique a week way. I can't say his name either, Brian, I'm right there with your buddy in terms of butchering names. I'll get there at some point. But the Washington defensive tackle at least he's going to the Senior Bowl. At least he's somebody that you'll get to see on the field with other competition at some point and puts some film out there as a twenty

twenty opt out. There's not a ton of those guys, but he is one of those guys that will be out there Okay, moving on another question here, Well, we could get maybe one or two more here. Let's go to these Senior Bowl wide receivers and Bucky, you wanted to talk about the Senior Bowl wide receivers. I mean, we saw another one yesterday commit and of course Heisman Trophy winner Davante Smith, but some of these other guys like a Dez Fitzpatrick or an Amari Rodgers, Dwayne Eskridge,

and Thayland Wallace out of Oklahoma State. Michael Davenport ask this question, but in terms of the group of wide receivers, Bucky, that you've seen commit to the Senior Bowl, what do you think about this group overall? And is there anybody late round the Cowboys could potentially look at. Look, I think this is a really good group. I think it's a really good class. I think it's solid. I think you have a bunch of technicians that would do their work.

Tylan Wallace is certainly someone that is intriguing. He popped his ACL a year ago, but came back and was very very productive. Normally it takes two years before you fully activated and write coming off of that, he is one that you definitely need to keep an eye on. I think the guys to really watch because I think when I look at the evolution of what the Cowboys could do at wide receiver, I believe Marie Cooper is going to be number one. Ceede Lamb is going to

be number two. I think maybe eventually they move on from Michael got because I just don't know if they can pay all three Rogers is interesting. It is Teve Martin's son who is now Tennessee to Tennsee legend or whatever, but he's a fantastic slot player. I do wonder if at some point you're going to move Ceedee Lamb to X have a Marie Cooper at Z and didn't maybe need a slot receiver, or do you find that X receiver? So Amari Rodgers is someone that I would keep an

eye on. Esk Ridge is also someone who has speed and has some get down that fascinates me a little bit. A couple other guys they're like a Cadarius Tony. I don't know if you would have a chance of getting him later in the draft, Brian, but I mean, at least out of a guy that's exciting to watch with the Senior Bowl, he's up there. Anybody that sticks out to you, though. No, I think that Bucky did a really good job, you know, I think did Jim Naggie.

You know, he took over for Phil Savage, and Phil for a long time did a really great job of of, you know, evaluating bringing players in. I think Jim Naggie has taken it to a whole nother level. I never believed. And even though that, you know, he got Smith from Alabama to show up. He's got the busted finger, but he's being a part of this and the good for the kid. But Naggie's done a great job with that. And I think that Bucky's dead on about these receivers.

I will say this about Tony and I'm kind of here, in the tradition of Florida receivers, there's some off the field things that you need to worry about there. So so he'll he'll get he'll get drafted, everybody will complain about him. He'll probably make plays, but when you watch him on tape, man, he is a nightmare. He reminds me very much when we talked about like Rondel Moore from Purdue, that same kind of like get the ball to him and now it's hold your breath, you know,

situations on defense. So I do like what Naggie's done with that group. I'm looking forward to seeing those guys and how the kind of week that they have at practice. I will give you one that may not be a Cowboys target, but one that we always see these guys in the second and third round. That pop Treyvon Grimes from Florida. He could be a guy that you need to keep an eye on, and that what I would call that. Mike Thomas Mike Evans mold when he was

coming out of high school. He's a five star recruit. He goes to Ohio State, has a family issue, comes back to Florida. But size, athleticism take it off the rim, big body, physical We're seeing that these big body playmakers can dominate just with their physicality on the perimeter. He is one that I would keep an eye on that he may not go like early like high second round, but second, third round. He is one that I'll keep an eye on that we go look back at like,

oh how do we miss him? Yeah, well a day we saw last year guys like maybe like a Denzel Mims, who didn't of course have a great rookie season. But I mean it was a great wide receiver class overall last year, and the Seamor Bowl kind of reflected that that's. I mean, this, this class is good. And I was I was gonna bring up the two Florida kids for sure. I don't know if it's just because he wears number one, but Kadarius Tony just feels like Percy Harvin all over

again to me. Um, same personality. Yeah, yeah, that boy. I was just gonna left that. I was gonna leave that part. I'm gonna leave that part. I was gonna leave. Yeah. I didn't watch to be alone in this strap show. You know what I'm saying. You guys didn't. I didn't want you to be alone. Oh goodness, I think I dude, I think last year's class was probably a little bit more star studded. You brought up Mims. You know, Van Jefferson was down there last year as well. He obviously Laypool,

Chase Claypool. Yeah, I forgot Chase Claypool was there. You're right, Um,

so I think probably a little more star studded. But I think the world of Tyland Wallace and yeah, I mean to Brian's point, I think twenty thirteen was my first year really covering the draft, and you know, like the Senior Bowl used to get some good players, but like people, people kind of used to roll their eyes, and now, I mean you can't argue obviously, like the best of the best draft prospects are always going to be underclassmen, because if you're that good, you're gonna go

pro before you're a senior. But they consistently get the best possible seniors. I mean, they got freaking they got Baker Mayfield, the number one pick in the draft, to go to Mobile. You know, the fact that last year they got I mean, they got Davante Smith, who he doesn't need to do anything to be a top ten pick, and they still got him to go. You know, he's gonna go down there and compete. I think it's awesome.

You know, props to Jim for doing that, because it's on a whole another level from where it was even four or five years ago. It really is fun to watch and it makes at a spectacle and unfortunately, of course it's gonna be a lot virtual this year, but ultimately it's something that I know we'll grow amongst these players and amongst the league. Really as Naggie's really done a great job with it. But let's go ahead and take our second break. When we come back, I want

to kind of attack a couple more questions. We had a lot of twitter on the twenty questions that centered around the linebackers and should the Cowboys have a linebacker up at the top of the board, and if it's a linebacker, who should it be. We'll talk about that when we come back. On the other side of the break. You're listening to the Draft show. We're back in a tasty treat that's sweeping airwaves and taste buds. It's new Doctor pepper and cream Soda. Let's take a listen, Doctor

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secure and nationwide. Switch to AT and T five G. It's not complicated. Five G requires compatible plan may not be in your area. See att dot com slash five G for you for details is the Dallas Cowboys dot Com Draft Show. Final couple of minutes here of the Dallas Cowboys dot Com Draft Show. As always, Bucky Brooks, Bryan brought us David Helman. I'm Kyle Yeomans and we just got done with some great twitter on the twenty and appreciate all you guys sending in your questions every week.

Of course, these guys every Tuesday, ten o'clock Central Time, join them every week. It's it's fantastic the four that we have this year, that we get so many different personalities and thought processes with the draft, and we see that again here today. We'll be back on Thursday to in am Central Time with Dame Brugler, Jeff Cavanaugh and

Kevin Turner as a part of the show. But guys, we've just went through a little bit of some twitter on the twenty and we asked a lot of questions about the quarterbacks and the offense and even a little bit of defensive tackle. But there were a couple questions about linebacker and this including this one from Travis Ferguson who said, who would you rather have on this Cowboys team?

And that's either Michael Parsons or Zaban Collins the linebacker out of Penn date with Parsons and Collins being out of Tulsa, and there's a lot of form issue, or not really form, but at least play style. I think that was kind of differing between the two and who would you rather have, Brian whenever it comes to these two guys, and is linebacker a huge need for this team or at least a priority for this team heading into the draft process. Yeah, I don't know if Buckie,

I know Bookie has probably seen the player. I don't know if Dave has. I watched Collins myself, and I kind of see a three four SAM linebacker there. I don't know what his fit really is for a four three scheme. So you know, maybe in the old regime, Collins would have been a guy that you would have jumped on board for, but I didn't. I didn't really see I didn't see stuff where I felt like, I mean, a good player. The size is incredible, how big he is,

and you know, you watch him in these games. I think there was a couple of games where he was you know, he had key he got forced key turnovers in the game. But the more I watched the more, I thought, well, he this isn't just a big on the line, you know, Sam linebacker is what I saw, and you know, because you know, with his size and stuff. And I think with if you gave me a choice, I'm not a huge fan of Parsons. I really do like I do like Bolden a lot from Missouri is

a guy that I'm kind of become a fan. I watched Dylan Moses last night, and there's some things about him that are that are good to go. But I think with Collins, if you gave me a choice between Collins and Parsons, I don't know if I would choose either one of those guys, you know, just for where, for where you have to choose Parsons, I don't think I would do it. And but Collins I kind of feel the same way. I think he's kind of a just a one position guy, you know, going forward here.

So I wouldn't go either one of those guys is my linebacker, you know, Bryan. I think it's important now that we have to bring dan Quinn and his history into the fold in the Loup, and I don't think either one of those guys are his type of players. When it comes to the linebacker position. You look at the guys that they drafted at Atlanta, it was the I won't say the undersize, but it was the runner athlete, run fast. Yo. Now, I don't want to do the Alma mater homer, but chess or Rot would be more

of a fit from North Carolina. He would be more of a fit in that style of defense to play that role. So whether you're talking about Sup planning, Jaylen Smith or whatever, but someone that can run and chase and be active and run down the scene and blitz into those things, he would be more of that style linebacker that you're talking about in the second round or something like that. Even the kid from Ohio State. You know, if you worry book about do you worry about the conversion?

You know Tres was he was he was a quarterback and then you know, converted to linebacker. I mean, the kid does run well, he does make some plays. Is the learning curve too much for him or is it you're just basing on traits that maybe you'll get that that guy at the next level. Well, well, I think now like the way we have to look at linebackers, like our old school thought process, of like, hey, can he take on cann He shit had a smash a quarterback.

Like now we're seeing. If you're linebackers can't run and chase, you have no chance. If they can't do anything in either coverage or blitz, you don't have to do it. And so look, man, we just saw Patrick Queen come out of nowhere to be like a top pick and he hadn't played much, but he flashed and he popped and he did those things. And so for Chazz, the conversion is unconventional going from quarterback to linebacker, but the athletic traits are ridiculous. When you dig in his background

and you kind of see where he's at. Oh no, absolutely, yeah. The more you do dig in on him, it's impressive. When you could watch him throw the ball miss a quarterback and then you could watch him sack a quarterback, you know, it's kind of will. But yeah, along this same line of thinking, and I mean, yeah, it's hard not to think about Dion Jones when you think about

Dan Quinn. Am I crazy for thinking of Jeremiah Wusu Corramoro When you say that I didn't know, I think, man, I why do I see a strong safety there Bucky and Dave. Why because he's because he's two hundred and fifteen pounds. I watch him cover in the slot. That kid makes a ton of plays. I mean, he's a lot of fun to watch. I mean, I go back to this South far back. I could go he's not as fast as Darren Woodson, But I remember Darren Woodson

playing linebacker Arizona State in nineteen ninety two. You know, And I was sitting there thinking, man, is this guy strong safety? Because you do see him play in the slot. You do see him cover, you do see him carrying tight ends. You know, you see him rushing. He made a huge play in that Clemson game, the game that was played in South Ben. So I'm thinking, is this guy a linebacker? Is he a strong safety? Man? But I love the player? Don't get okay that play? Y'all.

Y'all tell me this because if this was two years ago, I would have said, well, Rod Marinelli hates jack knife players. He wants everybody to have a clearly defined role just important. Should I expect Should I expect that from Dan Quinn? Or I mean, like Buddha Baker is a great example. The Cowboys didn't have any interest in Buddha Baker? Could I get my hopes up that maybe it would be different under Dan Quinn? Like, does a utility guy like that fit into this defense? Here's what I would tell

you the challenge in that. Right, it's the same conversation debate that you would have with Isaiah Simmons last year. Right, it looks it looks great from ari end, Like as scouts, we're like, Oh, he can do this, he can do that, can do this, But then coaches tell me, Okay, well what room does he go to when it's time for position meetings? Yeah? How do we get him reps to do all of these things that you're banting about? How

are we going to figure this out? And So when you think about that, it's easier when you have a guy that has a clearly defined role because at least, you know, worst case I can put him here and he can survive or whatever, and then if we can expand it, he can thrive. I think the kid that you're mentioning, I think we have to look at the game differently now. I think the days of a the

strong safety lineback or whatever. I think teams are playing Nickel and Don anyway, yeah, and if you can get on the field, you can run and chase and make plays. We throw you out there and we call you whatever we call you when we rolled the lineups on the bottom third. But when you play the games, give me the eleven best guys, and I got to put eleven best athletes on the field and kind of figure it out.

And so hopefully he dan Quinn has some of that in his repertoire, because you don't want to miss out on some of those players that you can get as impact players, because speed is everything in this game. Well, in talking about guys with these these physical attributes, and maybe this guy's a little bit bigger, but I know y'all's LSU Tiger. In Jabril Cox I mentioned that I watched him yesterday and got to kind of watch a

little bit of the Tigers. I like his size, I mean six four, he's got long arms, and ultimately he was better on tape in twenty twenty than he was even playing against lesser competition, I think against back before his time at LSU, when he was at North Dakota State. But I would put him right in that conversation of a Chaz Sad and general Luca Cormora and maybe even

a Baron Browning. I think there's a lump of linebackers that are in the second in the third round that the Cowboys could potentially be interested in and maybe even upgrade over what they have already. Guys. I don't like bringing up LSU players because I don't want people to think I'm a homer. But Jabril Cox can play. I think he's a ball in. He can no, he could like, he's physical, he can cover at least decently. I don't know, I don't know where you would have to draft him,

but he's he's a good football player. I love that. I love your idea, Kyle play. Yeah. I'll say this though about him though, when he was coming out, when he when the season started, the two national they have National scouting and Blessto scouting. Blesto had a second round grade on him. So scouts going in to LSU had a grade of a one two seven on him. That's like a late two going in and so yeah, that's

that's that's that's pretty heavy stuff right there. For a transfer and the kid, the kid want they want a ton of games at North Dakota State. Guys, A champion. He on an LSU team that struggled so bad on defense. He was one of the bright spots that they had, a clear bright spot. Yeah, well, you're seeing more of those guys play, and so I wouldn't discount it. And so I think the sweet spot for those linebackers anywhere the second and third round. And so when we're looking

at trace and we're looking at what can they do? Well, he can run and chase, he can cover in space, he can do some of the things that you have to do because you have to think about the teams

that you're playing in the division. And when you think about who is going to deal with Antonio Gibson floating out the backfield and doing all the stuff that he could do for the Washington football team, or Miles Stands for Philadelphia, or when se Quon Barkley comes back, you better have someone on your second level who can handle

those matchups and quickly close and defend those guys. And so I think speed has to be something that's addressed, because Jaalen Smith doesn't have the speed to be able to do it. And even though you may be hamstrung with this contract, I think at some point you have to find more speed to put at the second level to be able to deal with the teams in division.

Change the directions huge. I mean, when you're watching this tape, if you watch the linebacker they can't change direction, you might as well turn off the tape because that is so huge. I mean, it's it's unbelievable. You know, how you watch these games and how they're affected by guys not being in position because they can't change direction. That's kind of why I like Nick Bolton a lot, because I think he can change direction. I think he's a

guy who's athletic enough. Same thing with your Bill Cox. I mean, there was really no issue on tape, at least from what I was seeing in terms of changing direction. Now, does it kind of deter you the fact that there's no top end linebackers in this draft, or are you okay taking a second or a third round guy like this, because I mean you've invested a first round pick in Layton vander esh and a second round pick in Jalen

Smith with your linebackers already? Are you okay investing a high enough pick but still kind of I guess in the later part, still kind of taking a risk and trying to replace one of those two guys. Linebackers are the running backs of defense. You should be able to find good ones all over the place. Like I said, what I said, what I said, Oh, Bucky's gonna kill me, so so here here, here's here's what I hear, what

I get. And I understand this because like it's it's the thing like we like to theorize like these things, and it makes sense. It's almost like, hey, never take a guard. Never, never take a guard in the top ten, don't take running backs. Don't take this. I would say this, if the talent Mary's being able to take someone in the first round, take a good player. But yes, if not, if there's a surplus, yeah you can. You can find

them everywhere. I would say, because I saw your thing about Devin White, kind of change your mind, like good players make good teams. If you if you promise me, if you promise me, I'm getting Devin White. That's a different conversation, right, It depends on what comes out. I think what you can do is, man, you're fa acture that. And I think what we do is sometimes particularly when we're with teams, we we manufactured the position of need

to say, hey, you know we're at ten. This guy is that as opposed to no, he's not a we can't take him at ten because he's not dead, because we're only setting ourselves up to fail. I think take really good players, and it does a Patrick Willis take a Patrick Willis having said that, you know, having said that, and I mean, you're you're right. I mean, if a guy, if he's that good, you should take him. No, No, but Bryan Guyan to get up, Bryant up, Bryan hit there is half and you fold it. Is there a

linebacker in this draft that's worth that pick a ten? Yeah? No, No, there's not. And that's like anybody I wouldn't a ways say they think the way you feel about linebackers the way I feel about wide receivers. I believe you don't need to take a wide receiver in the first round. There's a there's that Green Bay Packer coming out of here. Man, I'm looking I'm looking at Davante Adams, I'm looking at Stefan Diggs. I'm looking at Michael Thomas, round, I'm looking

at I'm looking at all these dudes. I'm like, I mean, do I really need the fourth over first round pick. It also helps if your quarterback is good. But I mean, do I now have to invest in any of those things like quarterbacks, Yeah, but offensive tackles, pass rushers, and corners. Well, so that actually, that's that's kind of the point that I make it, And like, I get it. I get it. You once you cross a certain certain threshold, you're worth drafting.

But like I'm over here thinking about Dion Jones picked in the middle of the second round. Our old friend Anthony Hitchins was a fourth round pick, still playing great for Kansas City. If I'm drafting in the top ten, I want one of those money positions. I want coverage, I want pass rush. Yeah, like a great offensive tackle or if you need one, a quarterback, Like, that's what I'm looking for more so than a linebacker. You're you're

saying linebackers out of money position. I mean, do we need to get into this even though we're over it's not it's not not in today's NFL. I just want to unless unless they can get after the passer, Like whoever you take in the top ten, top fifteen, they have to be able to impact the quarterback in some way, either protect him, make the game easy for him, knock him down or eliminate his passes. It has to be something in that. If it's a linebacker, there's just an

old two down linebacker. We can't get those guys anywhere and everywhere. Yeah, I think there's plenty of those guys sprinkled throughout the day. Two picks in a second, third round, and I think the Cowboys, I would honestly, if it's not a defensive tackle in the second round, I think it would probably be a linebacker at least that's from initial thoughts. Ensure. There's a lot of evaluation to still

be had whenever it comes to that position. I was gonna say, you're just trying to put the draft class together in January exactly. There's a ton of time left, and I understand this, and there's not even a cowbine to go by. But if I had to do it today, that's probably what I think it would be. But that's gonna do it for us here on the Dallas Cowboys dot Com Draft Show. So fun to be with you guys here over the last hour and we'll be back on Tuesday, ten am Central Thursday with the other group.

Just be sure to join us but for Bucky Brooks, for Brian brought us, and for David Helman. I'm Kyle Yeoman's special thanks to Chris being back in studio, We'll see you next time on the Draft Show. This has been a production of Dallas Cowboys dot Com and the Dallas Cowboys Football Club.