Draft Show: A Cornerback Conversation

the scouting Combine. Dave Hellman back with Dane Brugler. You could be a sky Yeomans, you could be a scout with that type of serious descriptive words. A wedding cake, wedding cake, thin, white. Yeah, Bob Buker, that's what I'm calling you from now. Well, actually that's Vin Scully. Vin Scully used to say that kind of stuff. So but yeah, I'll take Bob Uker. That works. But we are back here from Radio Row and Plenty to talk about, of course,

Mark McCarthy talking yesterday. We talked to a couple of the defensive lineman today as a part of the media sessions but a lot going on here this second day of shows. It's really the third day we've been here here at the scouting Combine. But first off, let's let's

go and start with some of those defensive linemen. And we've had a lot of conversation about that because it's a position of need for the Dallas Cowboys so far, and really getting into it quickly, what were some of the things that stood out to you guys today, Dan, We'll start with you that Thank god the Raiders informed Ross Blacklock that has thirty seven unpaid party tickets, right, you know, that was good. I would have liked to see his face during that interview when he found that out.

You know, Chase Young had some interesting things to say. Uh. You know, we knew he wasn't working out here, but we found out at his pro day he's not gonna be doing any of the agility stuff forty yard dash and and he said it point blank, like, you know, I'm not I don't need to. I'm not gonna waste my time training to be a combine athlete. I Am going to train to be a better football player. And

now it's a little different for Chase Young. He has the leverage to say something like that he knows he's gonna be a top three pick. But it was just it was really interesting perspective to hear that from him, because you know, he's, you know, he's not gonna do what the norm is and what he's expected it's expected of him. He's gonna do what he thinks is best for him. And that that was a really kind of

part partly refreshing take from from Chase Young. Can we talk about that, actually, yeah, because and it's actually it's some somebody asked us about it on Twitter two. But it seems like more of a trend than ever before this year, Like it was only two years ago that Myles Garrett just put on an absolute show here, even though we got here knowing he would be the number

one pick. And now from the top down, like from Joe Burrow to Chase and there's half a dozen other guys that are just like, now, I don't need to do this and I'm not going to And I feel like that is it's a new I don't want to call it a trend, but it feels like it's more prevalent than ever before. We've seen it with quarterbacks, you know, especially that position, who feel a little I mean because it's it is tough. And what are you going to learn from Joe Burrow that you didn't learn in the

fifteen games we saw this year? You know, what are you gonna see in this setting where he's throwing the football to guys He's never thrown too without any pressure at pressure meaning from you know, a defense out there. So what were we gonna necessarily learn from that that

we don't already know about him? So I certainly understand some of these guys, and it'll be Look, the combine continues to evolve, and you know, this year it's primetime and things are changing, and you know, I think it's going to continue to change, not only with timing and the you know, the ability for fans to access the all this information, but also the drills. And you know, the bench press is it's got an expiration date on

it in three years. I would bet we're not doing the bench press anymore because there's no you know, teams don't find any value in it. It tells you who works out in the weight room. It doesn't really tell you functional football strength. Um, you know, so there's there's there's plenty of value to be had with all the drills that we're gonna start saying tonight, um with what is it the tight ends, receivers, quarterbacks tonight Yes, Um, So we're gonna see there's there's still plenty of value

to get out of this, especially historical purposes. You know, you can you know, a guy runs a four or five? Okay, what's that mean? You know, how does that compare to

other guys? Um? You know that's position or with his size and um, you know, what do we expect coming in from a player like that that jumps the different positional specific You know, the gauntlets one of my favorite on field drills, and this year they're attaching a time to it, which is a little more competitive, right is that you think that's more for viewers or for like the competitive uses of the DBS. I think it's kind

of both because we've seen these guys. You know, one of the things when you go through the gauntlet, you're supposed to be you know, near full speed, and so you constantly here coaches saying go, go go because a lot of guys will slow play it to you know, make sure they catch the football and you know, and don't have any drops, But if you're slow playing it, that's something you know evaluators are paying attention to, So attaching a time to it and having these guys go

full speed making a little competition out of it, no question, I think gets driven by viewership and fans interest, but I think it also could help from the evaluation standpoint

as well well. And it kind of goes back to what we had a conversation about last week, was with this becoming more of a spectator friendly event, if it being almost a moneymaker for the NFL, how long does it take until these players start saying, hey, if we're not making any money off of this is if this is going to continue in this trend, then we're going

to start backing off a little bit. Because it's supposed to be informational, it's supposed to be setting you up for success come the NFL Draft, Well, sometimes that might not be the case, at least in this day and age. Even though you have a chance to prove yourself, that may not be the priority for the league itself. Now, with that being said, there's guys like Chase Young saying, hey,

I'm not going to end up doing these workouts. But we also talk to a couple of guys today, most notably Isaiah Simmons from Clemson, the linebacker who ended up saying, I am going to do all the drills, I'm gonna run everything, and this is going to be really interesting to go through. And you can see both sides of it's trull and we're kind of in that transition period.

That's why I think, Dave you said, you don't necessarily want to call it a trend, Yeah, but it's something to kind of keep your eye on over the next couple of years. It just seems like guys, and you know, there's three hundred and thirty seven guys here, and as Dane will tell you, a shocking number of them aren't even going to be drafted. Yeah, probably probably about one

hundred and ten. Good, that's crazy. But the guys at the top of this thing, I feel like have more leverage than ever before and a better understanding of what is important, you know, like, yeah, you know, it's not that long ago that like the bench was seen as important, at least from an outsider's perspective, and these days it's like, you know, I need a good three cone and I need to do well at the shuttle and the rest of this is stupid. So I'm going to focus on

my pro day and I don't need y'all well. And it's almost like the NFL's their their eyes are getting bigger than their stomachs with this because the more that they, you know, put an emphasis on viewership and fan involvement, and which is great for the fans, Like I don't want to, you know, kind of disrespect that part of it. It's it's great that you know, people that work during the day who are never able to watch the combine before they'll be able to watch it in prime time

with everybody else. And so I don't want to just disregard that part of it. It's great for fans, But from an evaluation standpoint, the more things change, that's going to evolve and have some other effects. Like, for example, it's all about viewership. So if I'm Joe Burrow, okay, you pay me, give me a twenty thousand dollar bonus and I'll work out here, you know, I mean, it's gonna we're gonna get to that point because what the viewership is going to be different, the ratings will be different.

If Joe Burrow is throwing compared to Joe Burrow is not throwing, and so it's safety would Chase Young, some of these guys will have the leverage and we're going to get to that point where're you know, not everybody, but there will be certain players that might get a little bit of a bonus for working out here. You know, you look at the top three names in the draft, arguably two U Joe Burrow, Chase Young. None of them were throwing or working out as a part of the

combine process. But along with the combine gets an opportunity here in the off season to kind of have those conversations not only with players, but also with staff members and coaching staffs. And yesterday Mike McCarthy got a chance to catch up with the media for the first time in a couple of weeks. And Dave you you tweeted this quote out yesterday. Oh yeah, I did. Oh, And

this is going to be fun to talk about. I know where you're going because over the years, of course draft nuts and Cowboys fans alike have had the frustrations

about scheme fits and certain players not being scheme fits. Well, yesterday Mike McCarthy came out and said, I've always felt that, and really part of it developed because in Green Bay, when you're picking twenty six, twenty seven, twenty eight, when you're down there in the twenties every year, when you're throwing away good players because they don't fit your system, you've got to take a hard look at your system. If a guy is a good football player, that guy

can play for me. What does that mean? Just a little bit of music to your ears? Which beautiful, a genuine that see there, And I'm glad that you're the buzz killing instead of because I mean you you you gotta take it at face value. But actions speak louder

than words like I gotta see it. But it is such an encouraging quote when you think about the things that have frustrated us about the draft process in recent years, like scheme fit is the phrase that gets thrown around when the Cowboys weren't interested in Tyron Matthew, not when he was seeking big money when he landed with the Chiefs, but when all he wanted was a one year, proved deal. He wasn't a scheme fit, which will never make sense

for the rest of my life. It's why you're not you're looking at taco Charlton instead of TJ wacause can you put his hand on the ground, which we don't have to get into it, saying, you know, Tristan Hill is like, well, this this scheme calls for pressure from the defensive tackle position, and even though he's not as good of a player as want Thornhill, that's what we need. And you know, not to throw too much shade, but the way we understand it, and and everybody gets blamed

when a pick goes bad, Don't get me wrong. Will McClay has said that time and time again. You know that comes with the dinner. But the previous coaching staff had such a heavy hand in that process every year, right like every year around late March early April, you start to hear a narrative change when the coaches really sit down and start visiting with these guys. Who's like, yep, okay, the coaches are involved and we're going off the rails

from what we've been saying. And so does that mean Mike McCarthy's just going to be this wild man like BPA no matter what best player available. I doubt it. But it's an encouraging quote because I think everybody thinks and I agree that it was a flaw of this previous coaching staff and Mike he should have a voice. He deserves to have a voice. But if he's willing to really apply that logic when draft time comes, then

the Cowboys will make better decisions because of it. I think. Yeah, and you even look at too much of a good thing is not a or it could be a bad thing. You got to take everything in moderation. And actually that I cut part of the quote off because it was a I mean, he talked for five minutes a little bit about him. He's like, let's you know, let's not

get carried away like measurables still matter. We're still you know, we have profiles on players we like, like we're not getting crazy, like you know, we're not going willy nilly. But at the same time, if the guy's good, then find a use for him, Like don't come to me about like, well, he doesn't do exactly what we have to do, so I can't draft him. Get the hell

out of here. And it's also something you can look at in free agency doesn't normally have to be specifically defined to the draft, but this is where Dana I'd like to get your opinion on this, because it's not just the Cowboys that have had that scheme issue fit issue kind of problem in the past. What are some guys this year that could potentially fit into schemes elsewhere that the Cowboys may not be specifically honed in on.

You know, it's tough because when we have a new coaching staff, we're still trying to feel them out and understand what they're gonna be looking for for this specific scheme. But you know, yeah, every year, I think, you know, we need to focus on not what they can't do, but what can they do? Yeah, and really focus on that part of it, because, Okay, you know a guy that might be limited in some areas, how does he help us? How can he you know, what are his strengths?

How can we use that on our football team? Does it make us a better football team that's going to help lead to more wins? And you know, a guy like a g Epanessa, who you know we mentioned before, he's not that quick twitch, just blow by tackles, but he's just different. And so you know, if you really want that that that quick twitch, that von Miller style, not von Miller talent, but von Miller style with how

they rushed a passer. Then okay, take Calaivion Chase on and but understand that he has his limitations too in other ways, but just take the best football player and you know it's I think some teams that are looking for, uh, you know, length at cornerback. Um. You know, it's where not every team places the same premium. I think the previous coaching staff, you know, was a it was a length at corner and defensive back really mattered more than

a lot of other things. With this coaching staff, I'm sure it's still what they prefer, but is it going to be the same. You know, George Lewis, we're going to see from him this year with the new coaching staff.

So I think a lot of things we're still feeling out, both with the current guys on the roster, both with you know, because a lot of the guys on the current roster, these coaches didn't draft them, you know, they they're inherited these guys and so figuring them out how they fit best within the scheme that they're going to implement.

And then in this draft, how in what direction are they going to go with these prospects which you know, like I said, it was a long quote, and when you're having a free flowing conversation, it can get a little bit convoluted. It doesn't lend itself well to a SoundBite. Yeah, but McCarthy, I mean, he brought pass rusher into the equation. And again it's a really encouraging quote because he said, everybody want to talk about it, like, like you can

you have to pigeonhole guys into these roles. He said, you know, is he an open side end? Is he a traditional defensive end? Is he an outside linebackers? He a DPR, a designated pass rusher. He's basically like, I don't care, Like at the end of the day, I want six outside rushers and four inside defensive lineman and

I want like the best guys possible. And if you're you know, if you're a draft nick and you want the Cowboys to draft the best guy possible, that sounds like music to your ears, because that quote leads me to believe that it's at least possible that the Cowboys would have drafted t J. Watt under this regime. You know, not again not to pick it old wounds about to turn that night. If you're going if you're going off of ability over you know, can you fit into what

we have in mind? I think you're gonna wind up with better players more often than not. Yeah, it's it's so interesting in the way that you can kind of look at maybe just the mindsets shift. It's it's honestly odd covering the Cowboys thinking that way now and time in a decade. It opens things up, It really does, because you can't look at a guy like AJP and s and say, oh, he's not exactly a fit, so we should probably go ahead and cross them off our board.

It's what I've been joking. I've been joking about it at about the tight end spot since the draft process started, where I'm like, if Jason Garrett was still the coach of the Cowboys, I could run down the whole list of tight end prospects and cross out about eighteen of them. Eighteen of the best ones, by the way, Yeah, because they're not boxy, you know, big framed guys with blocking history like that was what the Cowboys wanted under the

old regime, and Mike McCarthy might want that too. But you can't just write it in stone the way that we used to be able to, which is exciting. Yeah, it opens up so many possibilities, and with those possibilities

comes some scenarios. And Dane, I'm gonna put you on the spot here, Okay, give me a prospect at seventeen that would be a surprise bold seventeen, like surprise that somebody would be there, or surprised that the Cowboys would take him, surprise that the Cowboys would take Ye give me that, because I'm gonna say, I think we've covered most of the like overly realistic option what could end

up being there at seventeen? But who would surprise you that the Cowboys could take any chance they'd go out, Like saying Andrew Thomas Tackle from Georgia, I said that, See I said that two weeks ago, and like which I'm I'm just glad we're on the same page. I'm always happy when Day agrees with me. Well, I mean that's something I name I havn't heard connected with the Cowboys. And obviously it's not need areat number one on this roster.

But you look at tyro and how many even more years does he have you look at you know Collins on the right side. Um, you know there's some uncertainty there, you know, could you kick him inside? Is he you know, contract situation, all that thing, everything that's involved with that. At what point do you maybe look at it and say, you know, the depth that we could really have on the offensive line by adding a talent like that, that's

just too good to pass up. That that would be one of those shockers that I think would be um not it would be very unexpected, But when you really think about it, you could say, Okay, you know, I can buy that six five, three twenty out of Georgia offensive tackle plus arms. It would be It would be the ultimate test of BPA because of the tackle class

is top heavy. The Cowboys have two really good tackles, Yeah, one of whom has had you know, actually both of whom have had pretty lengthy injury issues over the last few years. Yeah, swing tackles not one hundred percent settled, So you don't necessarily need the guy to start, But can you really justify spinning a top twenty pick on that. Yeah, it would be the ultimate test of BPA, and I haven't heard it called BPA, So I'm glad you said

that because it's better than saying best player available. I mean, if you're listening to the draft show, I trust that you can say you can pick up on it. But okay, so you're you're taking a surprise offensive tackles. Use the demand, we use the demand for an offensive tackle to turn that into about three more picks and trade back six spots,

which that strikes me fancy. Yeah, probably the more realistic scenario if we're gonna be honest and you know it's they're gonna be in an interesting spot because I don't you know whether that's a defensive lineman, end or tackle, whether it's in the secondary, corner or safety. Um, there's

just so many different directions they could go. And again we we we've harped on this a lot, but with the new coaching staff, we just don't know what those coaches are gonna be because we know this for an office, you know, history tells us they will listen to the coaches and draft who they want, who who they think

is gonna make them a better football player. Um, I mean, you really think they have to go Not only would an offensive lineman be a surprise, but also I think just going to offense seems like a little bit of a surprise. Because this team has so many holes on defense, uh more, so they're gonna have more holes this offseason than they even did last year with losing some guys. So you know what, are they gonna be pushed to go corner? Are they gonna You just don't want to

be forced to go in a specific direction. You want to keep it open and see who falls, do you especially in this class where we're gonna see we could have five tack was going to top sixteen picks. We're going to see some of these receivers off the board with Rugs and Judy and Lamb, So you know they could push this. Does a kin Law get to us seventeen? I don't know. Maybe I don't think talent wise he's a seventeenth best player. I think he's a top fifteen player.

But you just never know. With all the positions, I could go in front of them. I'll tell you this, which you know, I was super interesting talking to Mike McCarthy. I keep saying this, it's a it's a little note. But if there was like one thing that really jumped off the page to me yesterday, Mike McCarthy took a shotgun and just put a big hole in my dream of drafting a wide receiver because he listened to him yesterday. He loves Randall Cobb. Not that I'm surprised, and worked

with him in Green Bay. Cobb's obviously a hell of a player, but he brought him up by name two or three times yesterday, and I'm just sitting there, like, this guy really wants to bring Randall Cobb back. And if they do that, not that you can't, but it becomes a little harder to justify spending a big pick on a receiver. Well, there's plenty of room over on this side the disappointment bandwagon of not having a wide receiver because it's fun. I'm up if they signed Cobb,

it'd only be to like a one year deal. Anyway, I'm giving up on a first or second day wide receiver. I don't think D three is out of the question. I'm giving up on seventeen. I'm clinging to fifty one, hoping that fifty one and maybe the third round show is that dependent on the Mark Cooper situation. I mean I were I mean, if we want to dive into the nitty gritty of this, I mean I would do

it regardless unless Cooper signs a long term extension. I would do it regardless, because that would give you the flexibility to let him go if you tag him. I just I could write a dissertation on this if you want them to. You probably could. It wouldn't take you

very long to do so. But one thing out of this entire segment that I know Cowboys fans are happy about is that Dane did say maybe Javon Kinlaw could fall to them at seventeen as well, So we may talk about a little bit more of the defensive lineman as well as we go throughout the show. We're just getting started here from Indianapolis. When we come back Twitter on the twenty here from Radio Row at the twenty twenty NFL Scouting Combine, we'll be back at a moment

here on Dallas Cowboys dot Com. I'm Jay Novachik, former tight end for the Dallas Cowboys. Back in the day, I was the guy who always got the tough yards, and that's why I run with John Deer today. In fact, I have a John Deer three zero twenty five E tractor that can handle any yardwork I need to do, even the tough yards way out back. So if you have one acre or a thousand, John Deer has the equipment that's just right for you. Visit a John Deer dealer today and run with us. We are the official

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not okay. Get a great deal with America's best network. Come into an AT and T store to find out how to get one of our popular smartphones for zero dollars down based on GWS one score. September twenty nineteen. This is the Dallas Cowboys dot Com Draft Show, and no your hosts, David Hellman and Kyle Yeoman's. Like I tell people all the time, I'm a young dude. I'm twenty one years old, but I'm not your average twenty one year old. UM. I carried myself um differently than

other guys. I don't put myself out there like that. I'm strictly business um because at the end of the day, all this is a business. Um. Either NFL you ain't and if you ain't any you're gonna get put out. Defensive tackle out of TCU Ross Blacklock, bringing us back into segment two here from Radio Row in the twenty twenty NFL Scouting combine, David Hellman, Dame Brugally, Kyle Yeoman's with you, glad you're with us here on Dallas Cowboys dot Com. And well it's time now for some Twitter

on the twenty Twitter on the twenty. I'm taking it over today, taking my job back. Kyle, I like it. That's fine, shouts out ed k Hill, shouts out. Brian brought us get right into it, which actually, this is a really good question from said, you know something, if you will recall we've talked about a few times over the years, the Cowboys have not drafted a defensive tackle in the first round since Russell Maryland, so said, wants to know why do we think they would do that

with javon Kinlaw? Well, and where is that philosophy? Where was that philosophy born? Was it born with the coaching staff? Was it born more with you know, the front office? Is that I mean, we've heard Stephen Jones talk about it before, but was he reiterating what the coaching staff, you know, what they wanted, or is he truly believe that you don't draft a defensive tackle that early. And we're talking about it's important to point out that not

all defensive tackles are the same. You know, a one technique at three technique knows tackle. These things are all different. Javan Kinlaw is going to be an upfield penetrator. You know, he's a guy that you know is not going to be just a block eater and play forty percent of the snaps and one hundred percent agree you don't take a nose tackle in the first round. I'm on the board. I'm on board with that. But a guy that can

be a disruptor. I mean, you tell me you're not gonna not that javon Kin Laws, Aaron Donald, But to get that interior disruption, you tell me you don't want to at least try to get that on your team. I think that they maybe it's just me thinking what they should do, but they should at least be open to a type of defensive tackle that can create pressure.

But I think and I think that is an important designation because it was it was two or three years ago when Stephen Jones said at the comment, he was like, well, yeah, we're not going to draft a nose tackle in the first round. Yeah, a lot of people took that to mean defensive tackle. I don't necessarily think that's true. And yeah, Javon Kin laws six six three twenty pounds of pass rushing force. Like, if he's available, I think the Cowboys

would be willing to do that, even if history suggests otherwise. Well, you're even looking at the guy at the Senior Bowl. I mean, one of the biggest things about him was just the pure raw power that he has, such media hands and the way that he can get inside. And I've said this a couple of times, but the way that Nate Newton described it, I mean, that's a six time Pro Bowler and a three time Super Bowl champion. He's saying, man, if he gets his hands inside on

an offensive lineman, nobody's blocking the guy. He's going to be a pass rush or a run stopping option. You said, when was the last time they took a defensive tackle. It was whatever year, Russell Maryland. That's a long time now. Two years prior to that, they did take a defensive tackle out of Old Miss in eighty nine and excuse me, actually they took two defensive tackles in the same draft ninety one, they took two defensive tackles, one at pick number one and the other one at picked twenty. So

that's kind of interesting. That's a while back, I mean, way before this regime was Yeah, I think part of the Dallas Cowboys. So it is kind of interesting to say when that kind of shift happened, just because it hasn't happened underneath this tutelage. But it's fun to think about overall. All Right, Dan, I'm gonna throw this one out there for our guy, Jeff Kavanaugh back in Dallas.

I know exactly that. I'm just kidding Jeff. Speaking of Jeff, which is the question is about Jeff Gladney Kavanaugh absolutely loves and I feel like I get it. Nobody can really give me a consensus on where this guy's supposed to go, so BA wants Is he an option at seventeen? Do you view him that way? I definitely feel like he's the forgotten man among the better cornerbacks in this draft. How do you feel? Yeah, and I think he is. You know I mentioned this before, but the top tier

is Jeff Okuda. He is the prototype of what you want at the cornerback vision. Why is he gonna go top five? That second tier of the cornerbacks, I don't know where it starts and I don't know where it ends. That's what we need to figure out between now and the draft, and then that second tier. I think CJ. Henderson Florida leads it off. I think Gladden he's next. Yeah, I think he's the next guy in that next tier.

And so I is seventeen too early, maybe based on how we've been talking, But the caliber player that you're getting, I don't think that's too early for him. He he is a junkyard dog. And I don't know if that I've ever said that about a corner I don't I don't know if I've ever said it about him, But that's how he plays. He's so competitive. Um. The Denzel Mims uh Jeff Gladdeney tape Baylor TCU from this past year is on a shortlist of my favorite tapes that

I studied. UM this past year, the Gladdeney shadowed Mims up and down all over the formation. Um, Mims got him a few times, but uh Glad, He's more than held his own and showed why he has a chance to be a first round pick. He's not the biggest guy. He's he came in today about five ten. But I think he's gonna I think he's gonna blow up here in the workouts. Should run in the four threes, if

not pretty close to it. So when you combine the play, personality, the speed, the mentality that he has, um, I would be okay drafting him top twenties. So first of all, you just sold me love it nice. It's like, for some reason, I wonder why I trust you a little bit more than I trust Kavanaugh. Well, kind of going off of that before we move on. Oh yeah, well

talk go ahead. Sorry, Oh talking about Okuda, you said Okuda was top tier, and then you said in the middle of that second tier, you said C. J. Henderson out of Florida, Jeff Gladney out of TCU. Yeah, so now I'm gonna challenge you. We're just Christian Fulton was. We were gonna ask the same thing. I would love it.

I'm gonna guess Fulton comes after Gladdeney for you. Uh, and how much of a disconnect I have digs and Glama, Right, Um, I'm gonna bet on digs Um all the traits that he offers Stefan's little brother from Alabama A bit tall, long corner. Uh, you can to see what he runs. Um. I think if he as long as it gets in the four fours, which I think he will, I think he's gonna be in that top twenty five mix. Um. But this is kind of what I was talking about

with this corner. The second tier of corners, there's not gonna be any consensus. See that's I mean literally, I haven't seen anywhere near as much as you. But like I've watched, I've watched these top tier corners. I think if you lined them all up, you would blindly with no knowledge of their tape. I think you would probably take Digs like over everybody, just in terms of how impressive he is. Yeah, I think I like everybody else's

tape better than his. Yeah, Like I mean he I it just he doesn't seem consistent from me from a consistency standpoint. Agree one hundred percent. I think if you take his highlights, you might take him first, you know, out of the group, because his highlights are so good.

But when you include the low lights and some of his muh missteps in coverage and he's just is it kind of like Alabama just said, you're an athlete, go play like yeah, that the technique is not consistent, and that's that's good enough for like eighty percent of the guys that you play in college, right, But when you go up against the March Chase or Brian Edwards out of South Carolina or some of these guys that are

gonna be playing in the NFL, it's kind of troublesome. Yeah, I agree, And so it's been It goes back to the traits conversation. You know, I'm gonna I'm gonna bet on certain traits at a certain position compared to uh, you know a guy that is just a good football player. And that's where you know, Christian Fulton maybe comes into the discussion. He's I think just a good foot ball player. But you know, we saw in the National title game. We've seen different points over his career how he'll give

up some spacing at the top of routes. And I still think he's a good player. I think he's an NFL starter, but he is number five on the list for me. But I don't think it ends there. I think you include Cam Danceler from Missippi State. Jalen Johnson from Utah has a lot of fun in the scouting community at A lot of scouts think Jalen Johnson could be a first round pick. So Damon Arnett's a guy who I like a lot. Just kind of figure him out off the field. So I think that's what I

was saying. In that second tier corners, I'm not sure where it starts and I'm not sure where it ends, but there's a lot of good corners in that mix that from picks fifteen to forty five, they were probably all going to go in that range. Let's just let's get into the weeds a little bit here on cornerback because yeah, you mentioned our net you're the Ohio state

whisperer something like that. How And I've watched him too, Yeah, and I was in love with him until I heard that there might be reasons outside the lines why I shouldn't be. How troubling is that? And do teams have

a read on that yet? That's why this combine is gonna be so important for a player like that um for the interview process, because he was he was invited to the Senior Bowl, then he pulled out and so team's gonna a chance to talk to him with the Senior Bowl, and so it's gonna be really important here at the combine when he meets with general managers and coaches.

When they asked him point point blank about certain things that happened behind the scenes, and I've heard from a lot of Buckeys fans they were saying like he wasn't a criminal and he wasn't arrested, and that's true, but remember, you know, did try polite last year? I heard the same thing. Yep, you know it wasn't. It wasn't arrested. And I'm not saying that it's it's as bad as polite. Who you know, there's a third round pick and then couldn't make the roster. And with the Jets, Arnett has

the ability. He's one of the best tackling corners I've scouted the last three four years. He has the athleticism where he can play mono imano on an island and hold his own. He came back for a senior year and played really, really well. And this is on a team where akutas on one side. Teams didn't want to throw to his side, so he saw his shaff targets and more than held his own. It's just can you trust him? Can you trust him to get the most

out of his ability to be a professional. And as long as teams are semi convinced that that's the case, he's going to go as high as his talent suggests. And that's somewhere in the top forty picks. And while we're getting into the weeds a little bit here of the cornerback class, I mean you you talked about the second tier. Now there's a little bit of a gray area with those guys, maybe underneath Danceller, maybe with a Benongaty out of Auburn who's been solid. I mean, but

what about some of those lower third tier guys. Let's talk about third tier. Is this a deep cornered class in terms of guys you could pull up maybe in the back end of day two to to be able to get as a starter. Yeah. Well, and that's as a starter I challenged to be because once you get in that third tier, that that's when you're talking about guys who are drastically missing. Something like a Meek Robertson from Louisiana Tech. Yeah, have you seen him at that?

Haven't seen him, but Katie's in love with him. Also, he's got a he's got a hip issue. Yeah. Well he's also you know, like my size. Yes, yes, it's one way to put it. Yeah, he's he's about five eight and so um. You know, he's he's vertically challenged and that's something that at cornerback is a problem. But you watch him, man, he's fun. He will break on the ball, make plays. His ball production is tremendous. I

think here's a stat for you. The last two years, only two players and at college football level had fifteen plush passes defense both years. Wow. Robertson's one of them. The other one a guy we just talks about Gladney. Wow. Another reason like Gladney's, it's even more impressive at the college level because like in college, if you're really good, teams just don't throw at right. And so for for him to have that many opportunities and cash in on him,

that's that's really Yeah, big time ball producer. But again he's he's the big guys either. When you talk about Gladney and Robertson, right, right, But how is that going to translate to the next level when you're facing more size at the position, and um, so yeah, a guy like him. We're a guy like Stanford Samuel's from or To State. Who has the size, does he have the speed? And that's the question with him, something hopefully he can answer here. Josiah Scott from Michigan State. Another guy that

has lockdown ability, athleticism traits, but he's vastly undersized. He's five nine buck eighty five on his best day. So you know, once we get to that third tier we got, we have guys that are really talented, but there might be one thing that's missing that really clouds their evaluation.

All Right, I'm gonna throw you this is this is the one I prepped you for from our buddy Landon which this is a Dane Brugler special because he wants to know if there are any really quality fullbacks worth discussing, which the Cowboys. The Cowboys have a fullback Jamaezela Wally. He also he has an option on his deal, which typically I would ignore that, but this is an all new coaching staff, so they could have a completely different idea. I do really think Mike McCarthy will want a fullback

that was a hallmark of his Green Bay teams. Right, So what you got for me? Guy from Cincinnati tight end convert jo Josiah Deguara. Uh. He is a try hard you know, he fits a lot of the narratives what you're looking for in a fullback. Checks a lot of those boxes. Uh. He is a guy here who's listed as a tight end, but scouts actually asked him to work out also with the running back group to see how he can do uh in certain situations, both

as a pass blocker and uh handling the football. So he is a guy that I would keep on the radar as a Day three pick um as a possibility of fullback who can play special teams. Um can make plays. He's going to give full effort NonStop. That was one thing when you watch his tape, it doesn't mean matter like who the ball is going to. He is busting his butt up and down the field and so uh that definitely gets your attention when when you're scouting his film.

So Deguara from Cincinnati is a name I'd keep in mind. He caught some attention a little bit at the Senior Bowl as well, working out as a tight end. Made a couple plays in practices that were pretty impressive, but kind of going along that theme, and we'll stick with the fullback here, But what about a guy like Hunter Bryant who's out of Washington, a little bit of a small h back, a little bit in in Washington. What could he see as a potential of being a fullback.

I don't if you're drafting Hunter Bryan it's not to be a blocker. He can't block, um to just to really sum it up, and I mean, you know two seconds, Um, he's not a guy you're gonna want to trust. Uh, you know in the backfield, the pass protecting or trying to run block, he just doesn't have. That's not his game. The reason he's gonna go I mean, as long as the medicals are okay, he's got long medical list. As long as the medicals are okay, he's gonna go somewhere

in the top three rounds probably probably throw around. And as long as the medicals are okay, he's gonna go that high because of his abilities as a pass catcher. Um. And he's kind of in that Noah fant mold where um, he's more of a big slot than he is a true traditional tight end. And that's okay, it's just understanding what his strengths are before you invest in a player

like that. I really like him, and I agree with you, but I when I watched him, and I think I watched two games, so take it with a grain of salt. But like I thought, he he's definitely not a blocker, but I thought he showed a willingness to do it. Yeah, if they asked him too, he'll be a roadblock. You know, he'll get away. That's all I want, right, just get run over by the end and open it up for my running back or whoever has the ball. Like, if

you're willing to do it, that's all I'm asking. Well, but it depends on what you're gonna ask him to do. Like if a if a defense sees him on the field and understands, like you know what, they understand what his strengths are. They can identify what the offense is trying to do because they know if it's a true drop back situation, maybe he's not out there blocking um, and so they can identify from the personnel. I just think he's a little too one dimensional for me, but

who knows. He did. The coaching staff here might feel differently. That's and again, I mean that's That was my point at the top of the show is I would have I would have put up with strike through Hunter Bryant's name last year, and this year I'm not as willing to do it. Uh, do we have time for one? One more? Let's get it out. This is from Dustin And you know, I don't want to beat receiver and in the ground too much, but I feel like there's a very small but very vocal segment of cowboy fans

who are smitten with kJ Hamdler. So what do you what do you think about it? And you know, when we talk about this loaded receiver class, I do kind of feel like he slips between the cracks like he's a I mean, he's a he's a top one hundred guy, Yeah he is. And and but like he doesn't get mentioned nearly as often as a lot of the guys that are in that range. He talked about, like, you know, toys for your offense. He qualified me. He's just he's

fun to watch because he's a blur with his speed. Um. The thing with him is he's so small and that really I don't know, if you know, for a guy like Dak I don't know if that's like the best uh situation, because the smaller the target, the more accurate you have to be. And you know, Dak's not saying he's an any accurate quarterback, but I think he thrives more when the receivers have a chance to adjust to the throw. And that's something where Hamdler he's it's not

his strength and he even talked about it here. He said, I he flat out said, I run before I catch the ball. And that's why he had double digit drops last year. He tied for the most drops in college football last year with twelve. And that's part that kind of turns it off. Part A part of it is his size. You know, he's a five eight guy who it does not have the frame that you're looking for, but at the same time, get the ball in his hands and he can make something happen because he's so speed,

he eliminates those pursued angles. He can weave through the defense and create uh. You know, he's the guy that not to use a baseball reference, but it looks like a single and all of a sudden he's on third base. You know how that just happened? Well, d Gordon actually exactly that's that's what he does, and so there's certainly value in that. It's just figuring out how your best going to utilize him, and then what's the value in

the draft. Is that a guy that you would consider taking late first round, early second round, or is that more a guy you're hoping to get mcole Hardman late second round range, Which I didn't like McCole Hardman that there's some similarities there. Well, well, maybe I should shut up then, because m Paul Harman was a big part of that Super Bowl winning Chiefs team, so well, it was a good situation for him because he wasn't asked to be the guy. It wasn't asked to be even

a number three on that team. He he was like the freaking seat warmer in the Ferrari Like they're like, yeah, like nobody needs this, but it's fun. But when we break it out, it's gonna be a lot of fun to watch. Well, and about kJ Hamliner, he's one of the top three smallest guys Penn State. Yes, trying to mention schools, one of the one of the top three smallest wide receivers in the entire class both sides in

terms of hype and waife as well. And then you also look at the fact that he's only twenty years old. He'll be oh yeah, like just twenty whenever he's got the draft or whenever the draft does come around. So he's one of the younger guys too. You have a lot of time to develop them, and he's a guy we would be talking about more tonight. Um U for the the wide receivers work right now, because I think he would have run like I was. The way he

ran a four two seven during training. Wow, who knows, you know, but he I strained something out of a hammy or something. So he's not running here at the combine, but when he does run, it's gonna be he's got that audio speed. Wow. So plenty of wide receivers to look out for, but that's going to do it here for Twitter on the twenty. When we come back, we'll wrap things up here in day two of the Dallas Cowboys dot Com Draft Show. We'll be back at just

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See more, Do more. So you're shopping and that's when you see it by old twenty three doctor pepperstack from top to bottom as far as the eye can see, the phrase two going to be true comes to mind. Get there it is rich, delicious doctor Pepper, paradise. Wait did did that can of doctor Pepper just open itself for you? They all are as if to say, so nice to treat you? And even though it feels weird to talk to we, can you pick one up and say, it's so nice to be treated doctor Pepper, so nice

to treat you. This is the Dallas Cowboys dot Com wrapped you up and now your hosts, David Hellman and Kyle Yeoman's I feel about the Cowboys like growing up, I had a lot of animosity towards them. I gonna lie, h, but I mean I love every team. Shoot, I have not remembered the Cowboys, but you know I actually played in the stadium my Bowl game and toward the Vesodi. I mean it's an incredible it's incredible place. So I think it's called Jerry's World. Yeah, that place blew in

my mind. I mean it was just on a different level. And then I even expect this so little have fun there from uture gross Matos out of Penn State and talking about Jerry World as he got to play in the Cotton Bowl as Penn State and the Ninny Lions played against Memphis, but also talking about you had a little bit of animosity toward the Cowboys as a Giants fan growing up, which is understandable. You either love him or you hate him. Man hate him or you love them.

I get why they don't. I understand why players don't want to talk about like who they liked or they didn't. But like, I don't know, it's just fun And like if a team likes you enough to draft to you, nobody's going to even remember that you grew up a Giants fan. Like, let's just have a little fun with it. Well, and it's also whatever jersey you're gonna put on Sunday.

How much more fun was the twenty sixteen draft when we had that clip of Zeke talking about wanting to run behind the Cowboys oline and like, you know, he was mad that he said it, but it worked out, Oh yeah, exactly ended up working out for the better and now we love ourselves some Zeke Elliott. But wrapping things up, Dave Hellman, Dame Brugler, Kyle Yeoman's here with you on the Dallas Cowboys dot Com Draft show. And

of course tonight the start of the drills. Does it not feel like it's Dane for you, especially like I feel like we've been here a year? Oh yeah, at least before some drills are finally going to happen, right, And that's uh, it's a marathon, it really is, because it's it's you gotta pace yourself. The last few days have been really busy, um, but it's it's all this stuff is valuable. Um. Yeah, there's there's so much to gain, and it's just trying to trying to schedule everything, get

everything fit in. But tonight it'll be a lot of fun when the next four nights will be fun when we can see these guys on the field, um, you know, get the quantitative data next to these guys, um and just eager to see them move in space. Um. And especially the love the comparison purposes seeing these guys one after the other. Uh, you know, for example tonight with Jacob Eason and Jake from Um the Alpha order, so F and E they're gonna go run one after the other.

Um Esan's got that howitzer, fer an arm and then meanwhile From's a little more physically average. And so what's the difference going to be. Is it going to be huge? Is it going to be you know, maybe just a little bit. And so seeing these guys run one after the other throw or work out really helps for comparison purposes,

specifically tonight quarterbacks, wide receivers, tight ends. What are some of the drills that you're gonna see over the course of the afternoon and then into the evening of really importance whenever it comes to these three positions, well, make sure you're got your eyes glued on the TV. When Henny Ruggs run, yea, that's being forgot that it's a basic storyline. But I hope he breaks the record. That'd

be fun. That would be a lot of fun. And it's one of those things where we know he's fast, so it's not like we should get that excited about it. But it's just fun to watch. You know, guys that are really good at what they do do do do that at a high level. And Ruggs is a speed guy, and it's it's almost to the point where you know, it's gonna be disappointing when he when he doesn't when he were at like a four to two nine, which is unbelievable. But he's gonna run a four three three

and everybody's gonna be like, what happened? Second round? Yeah, drop them down. But um, a lot of these guys Jalen Raager from TC another guy, um, you know DFW guy who he won a state title in the long jump in high school, so you know, the broad jumps a little different so on. But I'm eager to see him with some of these jumps. He's really explosive. He's gonna run probably in the four threes. But eager to see some of these jumps and some of the things

that he's gonna do. That's gonna be a lot of fun. And then the that's the agility stuff, the positional drills. We talked about the gauntlet and how much fun that is, especially now with the being timed and seeing these guys catch the football, secure it and turn the other way and then get going. It's that that's gonna be a lot of fun seeing these guys track the ball over their shoulder, and you know, it's it's one of those things where you don't you're trying not to take too

much from it. Um, you know, it can be a little misleading at times. Some guys just have bad days, but still value there to be gained. I thought Mike McCarthy made a really interesting point yesterday when we were talking to him that I honestly hadn't really considered it. I'm sure somebody else has, but you know, we're in prime time now, and specifically, like when you're talking about forties and three cones and all this stuff, like you

think that'll maybe drop some of these numbers. Like you're sitting around waiting all day. Yeah, you know, you've probably had all three meals by the time you run your forty. Your legs are maybe a little more not as fresh as you'd prefer, because, I mean, this convention center is absurdly big, by the way, so you've been walking around all day. Mean, I know it sounds dumb, but you know these guys used to run their forties. Like first thing in the morning, nine o'clock in the morning. Now

you're doing it at nine o'clock at night. Like, I feel like that could have a pretty big effect. Oh, no, no question, And especially because it's not like these guys get a lot of breaks. I mean, they go through the ringer all day. They're gonna be in interviews. It's a you know, maybe not physically but mentally draining and then you got to get yourself up to go do these drills. So I think that is now. You know, these guys are used to playing night games, so they've

got a routine there. But at the same time, this is different. This is a whole different animal. And you know, now that they've made these changes, I just I don't think I don't think they're gonna go back, you know, until the morning. Yeah, And so it's just, uh, this year is gonna be so interesting to see how that works. Eager to see the ratings, Like, you know, I know how much I love the combine, and I'm gonna be you know, tuned in. But you know, the average football fan,

are they gonna be really intrigued by this? I don't know. And that's gonna be really interesting to launch. You talk about the ratings from a league wide perspective, In all of the events throughout the year, the only one that didn't necessarily see a spike over the past decade was the Combine. So this being a ditch effort to kind of make it a prime time event, make those numbers spike, but it might make the numbers physically fall a little bit, which is kind of you had to do it at

some point. If you're gonna move it, there's gonna be that one transition year. I hope, I mean, respectfully, I hope you're wrong. I think your problem is right. But this is an experiment and I hope it fails, and I hope it can go back, because I mean, we all love the Combine. If you're listening to this, you

love the Combine. But I almost think like the casual football fan almost resents the Combine because they're sitting at home, like, Okay, who's the freaking body from Colorado who's gonna, you know, set the record for the forty And then I mean, the last guy that set the forty record, John Ross, has had a bad career, hasn't been there, he hasn't has not been good for him in Cincinnati. So I understand the casual fans reluctance to buy in that this

is important. And if you look at like the top ten, uh, like the NFL network tweeted something, how like you know, the the top forty yard dash times since two thousand and four or something like that, like the best player on the like the top ten, top twelve, best player on there was probably Chris Johnson. Yeah, and then the second fastest time at the moment, right, and then after that there was you know, like a lot of names

that people don't know. And so that's why. And I get it because a lot of track athletes who don't not good football player. But but and I guess that's why I would say casual fans resented because they don't they're not interested in Sure, this is where all the medicals happen, and this is what's going on. These are you know, the three cone is actually so much more indicative than these other drills and things like that, And

so I don't blame them for resenting it. And at the same time, I'm just like, and I'm I'm I think i feel like I'm speaking for a few thousand personnel people when I'm like, just let us geeks have this right, right, and you know the casual fans will be there when the season starts or when the draft starts. The money will come no matter what. Yeah, a lot of a lot of a lot of fans have seen

these college players. The thing that I would just say is just go into the into the combine with having an idea of how you think they're going to test. You know, have some type of uh, some type of ideas. So when they run, that tells you, Okay, while we ran a lot faster, or he ran a lot slower, or you know, I was dead on with what I thought that that is a fun exercise that you can do that helps you. You know, it's not going to be the most exciting event, but it's something that could

get you through, could get you through. And despite it being a little bit different, despite it being a little bit of an oddity for this year's combine, we're still excited to see prospects continue. It'll i mean, tasks it. You know, it'll be a bigger deal because it's on at night and you know, maybe some guys will trend on Twitter because of what they're doing at the combine. And I don't know, there's not that much else going

on in the world of sports right now, is there? No, not really NBA stuff, but I mean overall, so you're right, yeah, Wow, that was a big said that because Lebron left. No, poor guy, it's fine port Ohio. I mean, we'll see, but uh, I mean even then, like if we look up and Henry Ruggs is running a disappointing four three three and he's still one of the faster top wide receiver times, then maybe it is a field experiment and

maybe Dave Helman gets his wish. We'll see if that that comes out, But that is gonna do it here for the Dallas Cowboys dot Com Draft show here on Thursday afternoon. So glad you've joined us, Dane, thanks so much again anytime all the way throughout the week and throughout this draft process. Dave Helmont down on the end of the table, I'm Kyle Yelman's thanks for joining us. We'll see you tomorrow here on Dallas Cowboys dot Com. This has been a production of Dallas Cowboys dot Com

and the Dallas Cowboys Football Club. M