Number 32. You really need to make a decision. There was no clear pas putting toxic chemicals into my body twice a week for 12 weeks to kill cancer cells and other cells. Do you think the answer is cutting off body parts? And then he told you, I think you need to go pray about it. Go to the beach and pray about it. Saying no to standard medical solutions was the hardest thing I had ever done in my life because everyone was pressuring you.
But saying no to my own inner sense would have been harder.
It was my secret weapon.
Pleasure in it, knowing that you were feeding your body what it needed and wanted. Blood work, everything was moving in the right direction.
Love is the most beautiful lubricant. Love and laughter. You know, laughter opens the heart. And so find what you love and do it. And when you do that, you'll never work another day in your life.
My next guest, I can't wait to introduce her to you. Okay, I loved her back in the 80s. I love her more now. You'll understand why in a moment. But she was on more covers of Sports Illustrated than any supermodel. Do any of you know who I'm talking about yet? And let me tell you something, though. She is a supermodel, but she is a super entrepreneur, as you're going to see.
It started into swimsuit calendars and went into an incredible brand built on one of the most, I would say, successful lingerie brands ever. And you still know who I'm talking about, or maybe you don't, but that brand went on to a natural supplement brand called Welco. I can't wait to tell you about this. But fact is, I tell you all that, all that success, supermodel, you name it.
But really, it was her battle with alcoholism, becoming sober that put her on her knees, in her words, and opened up her awareness of herself, of her own inner being. But I say that to say this. It was her cancer that she was able to step in to her true identity and even loving herself. And it was the battle and the breakthrough, the victory over cancer that allowed her to be what I believe God created her to be. And that is walking into the promise that He had for her.
So, with all that said, I am so excited for you to meet Elle McPherson, who I feel like I know you so well. And my beautiful wife and beautiful Elle McPherson. Oh my gosh, can you guys even handle me on this set? I don't think you need me.
But look rose between two things.
Yeah, you know, I mean, it's like you were on the cover of Sports Illustrated um more times than any other supermodel. I mean, of course, you know, as a young man, I mean, I remember all these photos.
I loved that cover.
Yeah, did you? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, just I mean, I I love that right there too. I love the one where you were like this. Was that another cover or was that just another picture? I don't know if we have that, but um, you know, just absolutely. Oh gosh, there must be two because there was another one.
No, there's another one that's you probably like the topless one. Come on, let's face it. I did.
That's the one I'm referencing. I don't know. Where was that taken right there?
That one is in Thailand, I believe.
Okay.
I'm not sure. I mean, we traveled so much for Sports Illustrated, and it was extraordinary at that time. People, you know, back in the 80s and 90s, you would do these huge productions that would go on for weeks, and you know, nobody can really afford to do that today. And because we have social media, we don't need to and AI. But those days, it was authentic. We had no hair, no makeup. We would go to fly to the location, wake up at three in the morning, get ready, and then shoot.
And it was extraordinary, extraordinary times.
Yeah, yeah. And I, you know, and I want to hear more about those times because, like I said, as a younger man, what looking at that success and looking at you in the magazines, and it was beyond that. I mean, on TV. I can't wait to dive into Hollywood because when I read your book, and by the way, guys, I I was my wife and I both, right? We were sucked into this book. I mean, if you see all of these highlights, so well done.
I mean, I honestly, it it really has guided this whole interview and process because you lived an extraordinary life. You did. A blessed life. But like my wife and I, it was out of your pain that really transformed your purpose, allowed you to see really who you were. Same as us in our our pain, right? And um who would have thought that you hated being in front of the camera? Yeah. Right? Who would have thought that you know you didn't love yourself? I mean, my gosh, so much to love.
I mean, beyond the beauty. I mean, you know, but anyways, I we're gonna we're gonna get to all that. But you know, it was your cancer that allowed you to do that. And uh there were many crossroads along the way.
Yeah.
That was one of the chapters, crossroads. Yeah, yeah.
That deepened. I really developed such a respect for how involved you were raising your children and just how in how connected you are to them have always been and really made that such a priority. And and so many women that are so busy, especially entrepreneurs, that it it's not always easy to do that. And maybe it wasn't easy for you, but you really just your heart is so clearly connected to them and theirs to you. And that was so beautiful.
In fact, we probably need Kleenexes because there's so much to, you know, empathize with and relate to different circumstances. But, you know, being a woman and a mom and a dad, just knowing the struggle of how adversity brings that just either a rejection or an acceptance of attachment in a really special way that I think nothing else can really put us in that place in our heart.
A super mom. But I want to I wanna I want to go back to, you know, we looked at you as just the the supermodel. I don't want to say just the supermodel, but as I said in my opening, you were a super entrepreneur. I mean, you did build a few of the a huge brand, I mean massive brand, and um which led to your health brand, which why, you know, you and I resonate so much, which I can't wait to talk about more. But how did you end up in the supermodel?
Because you didn't like being in front of the camera, which people probably don't know. So tell that story.
Well, I wanted to go to law school because that's what smart or at least um sensible girls did. If you had the grades and you're accepted into a good university, it seemed like a very predictable, reliable, dependable kind of choice. And I wanted security and I wanted um dependability, really. In my mind, I thought that that's what I wanted. And I had an opportunity to go to America to um do a sort of small stint in modeling.
I was modeling a little bit in Australia to get pocket money, but it was never my jam. I just was kind of good at it in the sense that I was six foot tall and I was very athletic and had a big Aussie smile, and you know, I was like the girl next door. So I had a sort of persona that was quite relatable to many people. And I I did that on the side. I wanted to be financially independent even as a child. I had a job when I was 13 years old.
I had two jobs when I was 13 years old, and so I was always earning pocket money along the way to help my parents, but also so I could have freedom. I really wanted financial freedom and I liked the independence of working outside of school. I had this opportunity to go to America, and I remember, and I wrote about it in the book, is uh at first I said no because I I was like, well, you know, that's it's gonna be a scam. They don't really want me, everyone's gonna laugh at me.
I've never traveled, I'd never been on an airplane before. And when I said no to the agency that had asked me, I immediately felt uh viscerally sick, you know, nauseous. And I went to the bathroom and I vomited. And that was my first moment where I realized I was going against my heart's true desires. So I had a a physical experience when I was not listening to my intuition.
And I vowed that I would always listen to my intuition and make decisions based on what felt um resonant with me, even if it was scary. Like going to America was super scary. So fortunate fortunately, I had a second opportunity after I'd said no to the first people, a second opportunity, and this time I jumped at it. I was gonna do that Aussie, give it a go. I jumped on a plane, I went to America, to New York City at 17, 18 years old, and decided uh that I was gonna be there for six weeks.
And that ended up being And you ended up in New York? I ended up in New York and it was supposed to be for six weeks, and you know, that was 50 years ago, nearly 40 years ago. Oh wow. So I've spent, you know, all that time away from Australia. And I I didn't go with an ambition to become a supermodel or to become anything.
I went because I wanted adventure and I wanted to explore and I wanted to get to know myself and I wanted financial independence, and I wanted to learn to be comfortable outside of my comfort zones.
And that was a theme through a lot that led to your success. You were really good at that, you know, being uncomfortable.
Well, I looked like I was good at it. Inside, I was Well, I mean, no, no.
I mean, you were good at being uncomfortable. Yeah. You know, nobody likes being uncomfortable. And then, you know, you must have gotten good at it because you said that several times.
Yeah, and I think that that's where the magic lies. When we step out into our hearts' desires, recognize it, listen to it, and take those steps towards it. That's where the magic is. Absolutely.
So tell us what happened in New York, right? You you got your first job, second job, and you loved, you loved New York. I mean, it was Yeah. And and it's it's funny how you contrast it with your time in LA, which we'll we'll get there. But, you know, it was very different. Whereas LA was about relationships, New York was about a lot of fun for you.
Yeah, New York was well, first of all, I was in survival mode. Remember, this is New York in the 80s. Yeah, yeah. That was the heyday. New York was. Yeah, but it was also dangerous. And, you know, walking along the street, I always thought I was going to get mugged, and I was too afraid to take the subway. And, you know, it was dirty and it, but it was kinetic, and it had an energy to it that was just unlike anything I'd ever experienced. And I was so moved by that energy.
I was so excited by this freedom to explore and, you know, that sort of danger in the background or perceived danger. So I was in New York for quite some time. I um was modeling, going around, you know, walking the streets, going and meeting people and showing them my book and getting jobs, and one thing led to another. And then over time, I had a reputation for being this sort of Amazonian, athletic, Aussie surfer chick, you know.
And so I got invited to meet with Julie Campbell from Sports Illustrated. And there's a great documentary out at the moment. If anyone's interested in hearing it or seeing it, it's called Beyond the Gaze.
Where do you see it?
Um you can see it in theaters, and then it's going to come to streaming. But yeah. So it's not streaming anywhere yet. Not yet, but Beyond the Gaze. And it's the history Beyond the Gays. Yeah. It's the history of the woman behind the Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue, Julie Campbell, and how extraordinary she was at creating this iconic issue that came in between baseball and football, I think, you know, for about the year-long of sports um sort of uh reporting.
And in the middle she put this swimsuit issue, which was supposed to be a travel story, but she was like, okay, we're gonna go to these beautiful places and put beautiful girls in swimsuits. And of course, that was the issue that all the young boys, maybe even you, um, covered it because it would come in the mail. Probably. You know, their dads would subscribe and it would come in the mail and they'd be able to look at the girls in the course illustrated.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, it wasn't porn again, you know, nothing compared to today. Right. Yeah, that's what we had then, right?
No, no, but it was I did that. I was like, oh my gosh, look at this. You know, you couldn't wait. Yeah.
And the girls were sort of, you know, they were all different, they had personalities, and they were, you know, they were real girls, beautiful, yeah, but real girls, and no photoshopping, no, you know, no filters and no hair and no makeup that we did it ourselves.
Yeah, here, okay.
Look, I mean, look, look at that scruffy hair. I think we must have shot that. Like it's um okay.
So that's Rachel Hunter and Kathy Ireland. Yeah, Kathy.
And what's interesting here is they were both pregnant at that time. They were not telling anyone.
No kidding.
They were like a month or two months pregnant. And we shot that at Rod Stewart's house because Rachel at that time was married to Rod Stewart, and that they shot down into the swimming pool there. And I that was one of my least favorite covers because I look at myself and I think, I look so cheesy.
Like the other girls are so smoldering. And there I am with the like and the token Aussie in the background.
I think you just look happy.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But uh yeah, so started working with Sports Illustrated, and um, you know, they had calendars out. Uh Sports Illustrated had calendars out. And I was always the most featured girl in the calendars. And one day I just thought to myself, after many years of doing sports illustrated calendars, why don't I do my own calendar?
Yeah, that's how that was the start of your branding as your calendars.
The start of my sort of entrepreneurial calendar.
But I get that right in the opening, right? I mean, I said yeah, it started with that, then it went to lingerie.
Yeah. So the calendar was my first entrepreneurial sort of um move in the sense that having the courage to say, wait a second, these people are doing it. They're a big company, I think I can do it by myself. I didn't have any funding from anyone. I funded myself the the calendar, found a great distributor, went off, shot it, and then sold it. And we had a th I had a three-calendar deal. And you know, that I mean, I think I it was like a million-dollar deal just for three calendars. It was a lot.
Um and so the $60,000 I put into it was really paid off. But that's when I realized, wow, I can make money through selling things and I don't have to show up at work every day. I don't have to be in front of the camera every day. I can do a series of photographs, in this case, it was a calendar, and then distribute that and then earn money while I'm sleeping. That suits me fine because I can explore and go on adventures.
Ah, the entrepreneurial spirit was awakening. It was well, because I mean you were good at the camera, but you didn't love it. If you did, you would have probably never pursued some of the other exactly.
The the fact that I was so uncomfortable with the with the camera so close to me, I I felt really exposed. And I felt um awkward and I felt like I should know what to do, and I never really knew what to do. And I I was just very self-conscious. And um I wanted to find a way to capitalize on the recognition that I'd had or that I had built and and turn it into an income stream that allowed me the freedom not to have to show up every single day in front of the camera.
So it was my lack of love for um being in front of the camera, but my love for imagery and branding and entrepreneurial ways of thinking and financial independence, it was that that moved me. So I moved into the things that I thought I was really good at, which was art directing and and kind of big concepts.
Right. And then eventually lingerie, which we'll get to. What was the you had a question?
I know I was just going to say I love that you you used modeling for what you really wanted to become, which was the developed entrepreneur and did become very, I mean, um impressively so. I mean, that's what I never knew any of that about you. So I didn't either.
I mean, I I knew the calendar thing that was about very impressive and methodical. Yeah.
But it wasn't, it wasn't like I I had a strategy and I executed it in a cold-hearted way. It was I took steps along the way that resonated with me at that time without knowing where it was going to lead. I used my heart as a compass, and I talk about that in the book. And I I I when I when I talk to people, they say to me, How did you do it? And how can I do it? And I always say, get quiet. Listen to your heart's whisper. It's not necessarily a voice that you hear, it's an urge to do something.
If you feel called to do something, if it sparks joy in your heart, makes you smile when you think about it, take steps towards that. Even if you don't know what the outcome will be, take steps towards what moves your heart. And that's what I did continually along my career.
Yeah, you really did.
And I think that's what's missing today so much is that people, uh myself included, it's hard to get quiet.
Yes.
And and really follow that inner direction.
Well, it's not hard to get quiet, but we don't often choose to. We don't see the value in it. And we're so um we're so distracted and trained to be distracted. But the real power that comes from the stillness. You know, I love that um expression that that's that uh I think it's Osho that says you can't see your reflection in running water. And um, so that quieting down the system even for a moment before any decision helps us feel into any decision that uh can be beneficial for us.
Yeah, and that came as a benefit to you later, you know, consistently when you're diagnosed with cancer, you know. I mean a lot of in your your sobriety um as well, I'm sure. Okay, so let's go back to New York. Tell us about some of those really fun times. So, you know, tell us about New York. What were the best, what were the highlights in your mind about New York?
New York City. Well, I I was on the cusp of the end of Studio 54. So I remember kind of going to Studio 54, and then there was another place called the Palladium, I think from the same. Palladium. I've been to the Palladium.
I've been to Studio 54. Yeah. I mean, again, this is my era, yeah. So and I went to New York several times.
It was so cool times and uh, you know, thriving nightclubs, and I would go and I would see all these famous people like Michael Jackson or Diana Ross or you know Baskia, who was an artist at the time, Andy Warhol, Prince, and you know, I would see these people in these nightclubs.
Okay, I was in those nightclubs, I didn't see any of those people because you were a functioning. She was in the VIP section. That's what I mean. She was in a different level.
There was no VIP section. I just happened, you know, they would like there. I mean, probably across the other side of the room, but that there was a rope that I couldn't get.
I'd crawl crawl under.
Probably not actually, because I was so um like I was such a young star-struck girl. I never really I wasn't like I hung out with those people.
I would just see them and I Yeah, not at this point in your career anyway, right?
I wanted to um I wanted to meet them, but I was always scared that I wouldn't know what to say. And I had this sort of inferiority complex in some extent because everybody seemed so successful. And I was just beginning my career, but I was in that environment with all those successful people or you know, stars. So I would go to the palladium, I would go to Roxy, um, and you know, there were so many, you know, clubs and bars in New York City, and I loved to go out.
And how old were you at that time?
Between sort of 18 and 23, 24, 25. Well, I actually maybe not not that late because I got married when I was 21. So I stopped doing that. So it was like 1892. That was Gilles? Yeah, I think that's a good one.
Yeah, that was your first husband. Yes.
And there's been so many.
Well, yeah, not real.
But uh just making sure I have the order right, but um he was your camera uh so I worked a lot with Gilles for L Magazine, and he was the he was the he was the chief photographer, art director, and editor in chief, really, of L Magazine in France. And I would work with him. I was actually booked for an L magazine job in in Fiji or Tahiti together, and then after that we worked constantly together.
And he he gave you a lot of business advice, advice on, you know, focus on women, right? I mean, which was smart, like they're your audience, right?
Yeah, he he did. He said always, he said, remember the fashion industry is made by women for women. Yeah. And so really connect with the other women. And you know, don't be trying to connect with the men because it's really about the women. They run the business. And and I learned how not to be a threat to other women. Women through practice.
Um, you know, simple things like going to work and being very understated in the way I dressed, and you know, no makeup and hair up in a bun, and not trying to draw too much attention to myself, and go with a book and read and be interested in what other people, what other people and we didn't have phones at that time, so it was much easier. But you know, learn to be connected to to women.
And that was something that was such a dichotomy because my following at that time with Sports Illustrated, you can imagine, you know, it was a very male-dominant and that power or seemingly power had come through the men's observation of me in a swimwear. But the true freedom came from the respect I I had for other women.
And then um from New York, you landed in LA. Uh how old were you when you went to Hollywood?
Well, I got married. I I was living between uh Paris and New York for most of the eighties.
Okay.
And then I started making movies at the end of the 80s, 89, 90, 91.
That would have been my guess.
Yeah.
Yeah. And um it seemed like things happened in blocks of 10. 10 years, 10 years, 10 years with you. So it was like the 10 years in New York, and that was 10 years with Gilles. Yeah. And then now we're moving to Hollywood and it was 10 years, and we'll be right back.
It was decade. Decade at a time.
And you know, 10 is a uh is uh if you do numerology on a 10, it's a one. So it's like a pioneering kind of period of time.
You know, okay, so this was the part of the book I think it surprised both of us. I mean, I didn't know you were in sirens. I didn't know you were in Batran or Robin across Cluny. I remember the episode in Friends, but like the way with Joey, right? It was like you were the girlfriend.
I was Joey's girlfriend, Joey's roommate. Janine Lequ was my name. How they came up with that name, I don't know.
I want you to tell that story though, because like you flew back from Europe, I think, just uh from with Argy, another story, but yeah, but you flew back and you like just for that role. Right. Yeah.
So I was living in London. My first son, Flynn, was born, he was about two years old, and I got a call from my wonderful manager and sort of co-partner saying, listen, there's this American TV show called Friends. It's super popular, and they want you to do a six-episode arc on the show. And I think it'd be really good for you to do. And I was, you know, I was like, Well, I haven't really done, you know, sitcom, and I'm not really good at comedy, and I don't really know how television works.
I've made a couple of movies, but he said to me, I really, really think you need to do this. And I and we needed an answer quickly. So within 24 hours, I was like on a plane from London to um LA with Flynn. He came and I sat in the hotel room, and I at that time they had VCRs, right? So I put a tape in and I watched the show, and I went into a flop sweat. You know, I was like, how am I ever going to keep up with that?
I mean, they're so extraordinary and they were so gifted, you know, as far as, you know, comic timing and charm and I think you said if you watched it ahead, you probably wouldn't have gone. I I wouldn't have. Yeah. I would have said no way.
Yeah.
So that's another thing. The heart said, okay, I'm going to give this a go. And the head, if the head had gotten involved, uh there would have been a thousand reasons why I couldn't do that. But I was there. I had no choice. Well, I had the choice to do the best job I could, and that's what I did.
Yeah, then you were in um, which is another shocker to me, Batman across from George Clooney. Okay, and I remember. So you had you said one of the hardest things was kissing uh uh, I don't remember his girlfriend.
So with his girlfriend in the room. Celine. His girlfriend was Celine. She was a beautiful French girl at the time. And Joel Schumacher was uh directing, and I was playing Batman's girlfriend. Can't even remember my name. So Clooney was Batman, obviously. He was Batman, and I was his girlfriend. And so we had to do this passionate kiss, but I'd never kissed anybody. Like I didn't know how you were supposed to kiss on movies like do you do it with the tongue, without the tongue?
I mean, did they ever tell you? No, I didn't know.
And his girlfriend was watching.
She was like, Yeah, so you're like, like, you know, it's just appropriate.
You know, what do you do? And um, I remember I was very timid, and George um Joel had said, can you two kind of like heat it up? Like act as if you at least like each other. And I was like, oh man, this is so hard. Like, if I go for it, the girlfriend's there.
If I don't go for it, the directors, you know.
And maybe George thinks I'm a cold fish, you know. So anyway, it was um it was quite an experience. But there were so many brilliant actors in that Batman and Robin. And there was Alicia Silverstone, Ulma Thurman ironically, was in it as well, who then went on to have a child with her. Did you see it? I don't think so. Yeah, because I would I think I was unforgettable in it. So I'm not surprised. I'm not surprised.
It was not one of the things. What year was that? What year was that? Early 90s? It all blends in.
It would have been in the 90s, yeah.
Yeah. And then the here's the other shocker, too. I was actually trying to find it because I thought it was funny. Um it was uh Sean Penn. Yeah. So you said this about him. You said Sean was never afraid of his feelings, and he was affectionate, tender, courageous as he navigated life, which I wouldn't think Sean being affectionate. Sorry, Sean, tender, but you knew him from the inside, so I guess he was. He took risks and he went deep.
He introduced me to the cast characters like Marlon Brando, wow, Jack Nicholson, um, who lived close to me, and you could talk about where you lived in LA because you were like in the hot spot. Um, I would go to their houses for lunch, dinner, and drinks and a swim. I suppose that I was just the girl, uh I was supposed I was just another girl entertaining them, but really I was being it, the one being entertained. So talk about that time.
That was uh, I mean, you know, that was uh it was it was it was a magical time, really, when I think back to it. I mean, I was, you know, I was separated from Jill, so I was single and I had these opportunities. I wanted to to pursue acting because I'd made already a couple of movies and it seemed like the next right step. And there were not many models that could move seamlessly from modeling to acting because it requires two different skills.
Totally, yeah.
And most people just think if you're used to being in front of the camera, you're gonna be a great actress. Not true, because in in modeling, you you you act or you play towards the camera, and in acting, you have to ignore the camera. So, you know, it's very difficult to kind of adjust your you know, 10 years of playing to the camera for film. I was making movies, LA seemed like the next right step. I felt into it. I found a house in the Hollywood Hills. Actually, it was on Mulholland Drive.
And it was Mulholland Drive.
Yeah.
And I had this super scroovy sexy house.
And your neighbors, right? Jack Nicholson, you know, Marlon Brando. I mean, cool.
Yeah, Kevin Costner. Yeah, Kevin Costner. So it was all those cheeky boys. And um, you know, everybody hung out and it was normal. It wasn't like uh, and I felt that I was the least experienced, the least well-known, and um, the least interesting of everybody in that group. But I ended up spending quite a bit of time with them and learning from them and learning about myself more than anything. How do I cope when I'm feeling so out of my depth?
And how do I quieten the noise in my head that tells me I shouldn't be there and start to be present in my heart to actually be there and enjoy it? So um, yeah, lots of interesting people.
Well, I mean, Warren Beatty. I mean, you hung out with Warren Beatty a lot. It's him and Bobby um Shriver. Shriver, Bobby Shriver, Warren Beatty, and they really influenced you a lot. They did. Yeah. And I I was shocked you didn't end up dating Warren Beatty. I mean, you know, what what happened there?
What's what didn't happen? Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Well, I mean, he was like, I mean, come on, he was hot and all that, you know.
Warren I loved because he was so in and is, remains, because he's still with us. He's um he was intelligent and he was interesting and he was charismatic and we haven't for a while. I sent him the book, I didn't hear from him. Yeah.
Oh, and by the way, yeah, you sent me such a lovely little note in the book. So yeah, thank you for that. Yeah. So so Warren, I actually read the book and loved it.
So yeah, Warren, Warren was, and he was so um, he was extraordinary for me because he was the first sort of one of the first grown-ups that spent time with me and talked with me as an equal. And it gave me confidence to be myself. He was he was he was real and he was authentic himself, and that inspired me to be like that and courageous in that I would we could talk about anything, you know, politics or film, you said that you said that the conversations were like really in-depth.
I mean, spiritual conversations, you know, talking about God, talking about like particularly with Bobby.
All my kind of spiritual conversations were really with Bobby Shriver, and um But you know, these were men that were extraordinary at what they were doing, and they they we they shared we shared time together and ideas.
Yeah, yeah, that was. And we had a lot of fun. How long did that last, that period?
I think uh would have been from ninety about the nineties to ninety-six. You know, five or six year period.
That's an that's a lot of time to become you were so you became you were so self-aware anyway, but you paused in that space and really took things in, what you could learn from people and and digest and what what resonated with you. Yeah. And um and a lot of it was just give it a go.
You know, there was a lot of just let me try and figure this one out, you know. Just it wasn't like it was so smooth sailing. There was lots of ups and downs and twists and turns and so much along the way, but it was really an extraordinary time of ex of exploration and fun. You know, we're here, we are here to enjoy. And yes, look, we talk about the stories, oh, Warren Beattie and this one and this one and this one, but that that was just the stage, right?
What was going on underneath was no different from any person feeling like a fish out of water, and we have all felt that.
Yeah, I mean, you said that. I mean, was it what was easier for you? Acting or being in front of the camera? Because totally like you said, cameras differently, but two different skills, skill sets.
Uh I was I I feel that I had a natural aptitude to modeling. Um, and I became very, very good at it. Uh, despite the way I felt about it, I became very good at it. Whereas cinema, I I may have had a s some sort of spark, but I didn't do it long enough to become excellent at that craft. And it is a craft. And the people that we see that are so successful today in film have made many, many, many, many movies and you know, have worked really hard to be effortless, appearing effortless on on camera.
Would you ever do it?
Would you ever do it again?
I if a script came my way and I felt that I could execute it well, probably because but I'd have to wait until the time and see how I felt at that time, you know, no fixed ideas.
But so many people in movies and movie stars today aren't what you curated was the profound depth of your soul and your heart that you so needed to go through the battle that you fought without knowing what the outcome would be. But you gave that in everything that you've done in your life the same energy, tenacity, persistence, determination. And I I found that to be just not just empowering for you, but it you give so much inspiration to the reader.
And that's why I wrote the book, because the book is really for the reader, in that my stage settings, as I said, you know, seem so glamorous and and you know, they're amusing to read, but there is not one story in that book that is gratuitous. This every story has a purpose. And the purpose is what did I learn from that experience? And what can you learn through witnessing and applying those tools and those gems in your life? What can you learn about you?
You know what? I mean, the relationships, you said Hollywood was about the relationships, you know. It's like, and I wonder how many of these relationships continue and what you got out of them and what you built on. I'm asking the cheesy questions. She's asking really good stuff. You know, I mean, like, I mean like did you ever date Sean Penn? Like kind of like you dated John Penn. Be careful about those. I did. I didn't speak. I'm just curious by nature.
We can't talk about that in dinner.
I want to know, I bet. I want to know. Because when I read this, she didn't say she dated Sean Penn.
That's all but remember the podcast. Okay, Dr. Did you date him?
And you know, I'm always curious about Sean Penn because everyone always thought like that. I reminded them of Sean Penn when I was younger.
And I did not see He was a little arrogant in his presentation of himself. You're not. You used to be, but you're when I met him, he had a little more of an edge.
Sean's probably turned out. Do you stay in touch with him at all? Uh we haven't spoken for a while. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Okay. So I'm not getting in the juice of the city. You're not getting in the juice, baby. I darn. Okay. All right. But I do you do have to talk about Archie because London was a big part of your life.
And the reason I want you to talk about it is because this is important, because you lived once again, if you were uncomfortable in Hollywood, then when you went to the, I don't know what to call them, Archie's family was like aristocrats. And they lived this European life, which was very different. And now you had a baby to Archie, and you ended up moving to Europe in London, and you were out of yourself. I mean, I felt it.
I felt it when I was reading it because you're the Australian girl, right? Just the country girl. I mean how you grew up, right? And now you're in this aristocrat life and he did it effortless. He's you said he was all the charm. You'd walk into a room and you were awkward. I can't imagine L. McPherson awkward. Okay, but tell this story because we were both taken by that, that you were in this life that was very different than yours.
I fell in love with an extraordinary man. And he across the dinner table. Across the dinner table.
Well, I didn't fall in love across the dinner table, but we you said there was no one else at that table, and there was amazing.
There was only and there was a lot of you know film people and uh art dealers and finance people and you know, well-known people, but there was this one man across the the table and his energy and his charisma and his smile and his just he was so bold and beautiful. And um and that was it. Yeah, pretty much. Well, not exact not entirely, because we met that night and we did not really come together until two years later, two or three years later.
So we kind of we met that night, we never spoke again, and then we ran into each other two or three years later. And um he, you know, it was extraordinary.
I became pregnant, uh, I found out when I was in LA, actually, just after the Batman premiere, and he was living in Geneva, and we made a mutual decision that my son would be born in New York, but we would raise him in London, which was the sort of midpoint between Australian education, let's say Anglo-Saxon education, and you know, close to Europe.
So we moved to London, and at that time uh the father of my children's business began to grow in the hedge fund industry, and that was like you know, a serious um it was a kind of powerful time in London in at that period in the in the 90s, 90s, 2000s. And I learned to be, thanks to Arkey, an excellent corporate wife.
And so I I um, you know, it was a completely different education living in London and raising my young son and um being the right-hand sort of woman to Arke's incredible vision that he had for his business, uh, not only in London and globally. And I I learned so much from that experience. But yeah, I was totally out of my depth because well, I wasn't obviously I wasn't out of my depth because I was in it. There you go. There I was. And there's no mistakes in life, right?
Yeah, so um, but it was it was like nothing I'd ever known before. And it um and I found it fascinating. You know, I found even though it was so different from everything that I'd known, I found the whole experience fascinating.
I would have been fascinated by it. But where it got hard was raising Logan, right? Um uh Cy. Flynn. What? Raising Flynn. Flynn Flynn, Flynn, yeah, Flynn. We both couldn't get it right. Okay. Logan? And yeah, Logan, no, Flynn. And um because the way that they do it is very different. I mean, they they come in, I remember you told the story, they just like take the baby and like, okay, go to bed, mom. You need sleep. And you're like, I want to sleep with my baby. We slept with our babies.
I felt that. Like, oh my God, I don't know that I could have done that. How did you do it?
I just did it.
Yeah, yeah.
You know, but it was very um, you know, we had an we had a maternity nurse, and it sounds super pretentious, but there is nothing more unnatural than separating a mother from a baby. I know. And the idea was, oh, the mommy has to sleep, you know, so uh the mother has to sleep, and then the nurse would take the baby away. And you know, I'm Aussie girl, like we don't even toilet train our kids. We we they don't wear a diaper. Yeah, yeah, they just go outside.
They just go outside, and then you know, it becomes sort of more regular, and then they realize, and you know, this we were so relaxed in the way I was raised.
Those two lives collided. Yeah. Yeah.
And I was interested, you know, I was interested in the way Arkie was doing things. And so Flynn became this incredible kind of um beautiful hybrid of his father's education and my education. And I think that's why, as a young man, he's now 27 years old, he's so interesting because he has enough bohemian um gypsy Australian surfer.
Yeah, but he has the aristocratic tall.
He's tall and he's handsome and he and he knows how to be in any circumstance. He's very much like his dad, like that. He can you can put him in any circumstance and he he feels comfortable and confident, and he execute, you know, he he is himself in that in any situation.
Aaron Powell I said to Marilee, I said, I think you'd have been really attracted to Arky as well. You know, just because you know he was like you described him like very charismatic and is to this day.
Yeah, I'd like to put it and he and the boys have the best of both of us.
Now I have to you have to tell the story about because this may be, tell me if I'm wrong, this may be like what really interested you in health, or at least forced you into it at a deeper level. Because tell the story that you were in the airport, and and you this is mother's intuition. You said he's choking on some, or you said something's wrong with Flynn. And the the nurse said, No, he's fine, right? The nurse made, he's fine. And and you said, No, there's something wrong.
And instead, you just picked him up because you saw his lip lips were blue, and you went into the pharmacy in the airport. Am I right on the story? And then, and then basically she was like, you know, you need help, right? You ran out anyway. You end up in the hospital. But tell that story because I is that he ended up with health challenges after that. And could this be what led you more into understanding health?
Well, I feel the first crossroad in um me being interested in health and well being is when you become pregnant. You know, like this extraordinary experience. You see you are growing another human being inside you, you know, created from love, the love that I had for his father. This my body's changing. You know, I'd been this girl and suddenly I was, you know, becoming pregnant. That girl out there. That girl, that girl. And my body was changing, and I was away from my own mother and family.
I was living in London. I didn't really have a lot of friends. I didn't have any friends actually at that point in London. Um, and I um, you know, I'm I'm wanting to be a good pregnant lady. So I started to learn about how to truly nourish myself. And I didn't know, I did, I wasn't inspired to really care about anything other than fitness up until that date. So at that time, you know, like calories in, calories out, work out, look good.
How the outside of you look.
Yeah. I wasn't thinking about nutrition, and I wasn't thinking about wellness, and I wasn't thinking about the strength of the body, and I wasn't thinking about the miracle of a body. And um, so my first sort of foray into being interested in health and well-being came when I got pregnant, and then the birth of my son, and then breastfeeding. And then, oh, now how do I lose weight after? And how do I sort of find myself to get back on track?
You said you were so skinny because you obviously being a supermodel, right? Very important for you to get right back into shape. But I it sounded like you weren't eating enough.
I was not eating enough. Okay, yeah. And I was paranoid about, you know, it's being pregnant for a year after giving birth. And I didn't know any better. You know, I I restricted what I was eating. I was had a low calorie diet, low fat diet.
Yeah, and you're nursing on top of that.
And I'm nursing. And nobody told me that no, you you have to, you know, you have to really keep your weight on. You have to have a high quality milk, and that comes from a high fat content in your milk for it to be rich enough for your son. I'd weaned him off.
Yeah, you wean him right before this vacation.
Yeah, so I weaned him six months. I breastfed for six months. He had only had had nothing but breast milk for six months, and we're going on vacation to Ibiza, rock and roll. And we were gonna be there for two or three months or something, bonkers. And uh, we're in the airport, and I had eaten peanuts. And um I had peanut juice, great, you know, grease on my hands. And at one point, um, I broke a little dry cracker for him, and I gave him the cracker.
And then uh what happened was his his he started to get very sleepy, and then his lips started to swell, and he was going into anaphylaxis just from the oil of the peanuts. Anyway, I went to the emergency hospital, I didn't speak Spanish, and just held him up in and something's wrong with my baby. Yeah, imagine. And they um they ended up giving him, you know, uh doses of epinephrine or whatever uh what are the Does he have a peanut allergy today?
Yeah, so he has allergies, asthma and eczema, which he has, and this is something I am so proud of him. He has so turned around his own health and well-being from being so unwell as a child. And um, he's fit and he's healthy and he's a bio tweaker, and we discuss health and well-being. He's strong, he's six foot three, he is, you know, he's extraordinary.
I'm sure he's a beautiful human, you and your husband. Um, and uh yeah, and I knew that was going to be one of my questions um was that that put him into you know, just a love for nutrition and health. It sounds like it did.
Yeah, I I think managing his own um what he perceived as weaknesses, you know, and and it's it was hard for him growing up at school. He couldn't really do sports, he was dyslexic, he was dyspraxic. I'm dyslexic. Yeah. Most creative, interesting people are brilliant people. He heard But you know what?
Here's the thing, and I I have to ask you this, keep that thought. I I grew up thinking I was dumb.
Yeah.
Because no one told me I had dyslexia. I just couldn't read. And if you can't read when you're young, you're dumb. Right. And so, you know, I always say every bad behavior I have as an adult um came from my insecurity of being dyslexic. Did he go through any of that, or were you all just like, oh, you have dyslexia?
No, we were quite aware. Um, well, you know, a lot of these um asthma allergy and eczema, dyspraxia and dyslexia, they sort of all go hand in hand. And um it's an immune system breakdown. From being pregnant and after being pregnant. And so we knew that he was um had different ways of learning. And uh we were very careful in giving him the freedom to learn how he needed to.
Now, interestingly, he was he's brilliant mathematics, science, biology, chemistry, physics, but not so much the um humanities, you know, not so much he loved poetry, not so much um anything that had to do with copious amounts of reading. But he found his way, you know, he adapted and he evolved. And um and he's brilliant.
So good bringing him through his health challenges, did that sounds like it would m it got you into deeper into health?
Well, I became more aware of the human body, and um, but it was sort of skimming the surface still, you know, pregnancy, breastfeeding, raising children. Though were the moments that made me understand that health and well-being wasn't fitness, it wasn't just looking good. There was so much more to it. So that was my introduction into um being more aware with health and well-being.
So I uh we have to kind of back up. So t we have to hear about, I would say, the first big pain in your life, um alcoholism. What it how did it come, you know, what brought it on?
Oh, that's a big question. Um I don't even know that it was so much of a pain as an awareness. And um so you know, a lot of people.
Well you said it away the that battle awakened yourself, yeah. Awareness of your you know, inner being.
It awakened it awakened a s uh um Let me back up.
You said it took you took you to your knees, but it awakened that that s self-awareness of your inner being.
Yes, and why that is, is because I, you know, um everyone at when they think about any addiction, in this case, let's talk about alcohol because this is the subject we're talking about. But um, so it really wasn't about how much I drank or when I drank or what I drank. It was why. And I had to ask myself, why am I drinking? Why is it? Is it a reward for an end of a difficult day? Is it because I'm self-conscious and I and I I I feel uncomfortable when I'm in social settings?
Is it because I'm bored? Is it because I'm lonely? Why am I feeling like the most important thing for me, apart from my children, is having a vodka at seven o'clock at night and drinking until I can't drink anymore?
And so And what would it when did it start?
I mean, listen, I'm Aussie. Come on. Yeah. When she was like, I could drink anyone under the side. I could drink it. No, actually, I started drinking later, you know, but I could drink anyone under the table. I was very organized. Um and I was very, very I never wanted to drink.
What does it mean if you're organized? What does it mean?
Well, I tell you, I would count my drinks. I would um be very sort of diligent. I had certain practices that I would do. So I'd make sure I'd drink a lot of water along the way. I was never sloppy or messy.
Okay.
There was no kind of like rolling out of clubs and, you know, slurring and anything like that. I was sort of very precise about. I would drink, I would like, it was a life self-medication. It's like microdosing vodka shots throughout the time to take the edge off. And of course it would all add up, but people always think, you know, if you're an alcoholic, you drink a lot and you drink in the morning. And that's not true.
No, you know, I would drink a lot, and sometimes, yes, I would drink in the morning, but that wasn't what determined, it wasn't how much or when. That didn't determine my desire to get sober. I wanted to get sober because I realized that I was not living my true being. I wasn't living my true self anymore. I was just masking it.
So yeah, I mean, so that I was it hard for you? I mean, was it hard to stop? And did you have to completely stop? I mean, you know, I mean, most alcoholics can't have even a sip, right? I mean, that was what you discovered.
Yes, I I went to treatment uh in 2003. I went to a fantastic treatment center in Arizona, and um and it was it was a more of a profound sort of um emotional and spiritual journey than it was a physical journey. The the cravings for alcohol or cigarettes at that time I was giving up cigarettes at the same time. You know, it doesn't last very long, but the emotional attachment to feeling that I need to be numb in some way in order to experience life, um, that is takes some unpicking.
And re, you know, you have to sort of rework the neuron pathways in the brain so that it is not your go-to is I don't know how to cope, I'll have a drink and I'll feel better. And so learning how to cope, life on life's terms, you know, I they they always say when you first get sober, they say the best thing about um getting sober. No, the the worst thing about getting sober, the best thing about getting sober is you get your feelings back. You start to feel again.
Is that what that that inner being reconnected awakening of your inner being?
Yes, you start to feel you, right? And the worst thing about stopping drinking is you get your feelings back. You start to feel you. And so having to live life on life's terms, I needed support. So I I personally went to a 12-step program. I would go to meetings two two or three times a day in the beginning, and then you know, but now it's been 22 years. And I asked myself today if I had a glass of wine, how would I be? And then I asked myself the question, why would I want a glass of wine?
Because what am I what am I missing in my life? Nothing. There is nothing that anything outside myself. No drink, no drug, no person, no work, no dollar, no money, no material possession. There is nothing outside of me that could make me feel whole, feel the God-sized whole, they say. You know, and um it I just realized that that the life on life's terms as a sober woman is where it's at.
You really have to have a tremendous sense of awareness to have that ability, though. You know, I think there's a lot of people that don't really think about the chasms in their life, and therefore they don't introspect.
Well, I think, you know, life brings you an enough opportunities. Absolutely. So, you know, so many people hit rock bottom, but they hit rock bottom in different ways. Right. Right.
You know, it could be emotional, it could be physical, it could be financial, it could be, you know, in their careers, um, it could be in relationships, but whatever it is that makes you, you know, when you come to the crossroads where it's like, I am so sick and tired of being sick and tired, I need to do something about it.
And, you know, remember, you say, Oh, I'm so strong, but I had a lot of support through going to 12-step meetings and a community and a and um and an infrastructure that supported me through those changes. And then, of course, I had the beautiful results of it was that I was happier in my life. It wasn't like I stopped drinking and I was miserable. I was happier in my life. I had better relationships with people, I was more focused in work.
I could hear my inner sense, I could hear my intuition, I could be me and comfortable being me. And so the benefits way outweighed you know, just the habit of escapism.
Right. And you talked about this later in the book when you went through your cancer battle, that there was essentially no way that you could get through no way to it, to the out to the outcome except by going through it. And that's something that just so resonated with me. And you had it all capitalized as well, because I say that all the time. There is no way to it, but through it. People are always looking for shortcuts in their pain, right?
They're looking for that, that quick way of doing some therapy that just, you know, tap on your head. And um, and there's there's value in a lot of different things that that do certain modalities. But at the end of the day, I don't believe that you can take, you know, a dose of whatever, you know, um, all the drugs that are out there now in order to overcome your childhood traumas or the pain that you've had wherever you've had it in life. You really have to feel it in order to heal it.
And um, there's a and you worked really hard at that.
Well, I I mean there's all sorts of ways, you know, everybody finds their way. I just share in the book about the way my what I did, you know, the exploration that I had. And, you know, there's no right way or wrong way. And I I always say whatever resonates with you, that is the path that you, you know, you're wise to step into. Um, and I don't think there's one silver bullet for any kind of um healing. Sometimes it's it comes in stages, you know.
And I mentioned this in the book, you know, healing is um it doesn't go in a straight line. It's not just like A plus B equals C and you're done. Right. Sometimes we're going round and round and round.
So we're finally we go, oh, you're learning the lessons, right?
I want to get into the cancer and what you learned. Um so an amazing story. I I can't wait to talk about it. But I I it to do an interview with you and not talk about the lingerie brand. Oh, yes. I mean, it's like it's like I have to back up, right? Because Marilee was, you know, she's like, oh my gosh, uh, my favorite bra ever. I had it for 10 years. You know, it's like, and it was her bra. And she said it was because of the colors.
Well, right, because I never liked to wear white or beige ever. And you were talking, you actually mentioned that, that you actually wanted certain colors that would be pretty underneath light colors. And I I still got that. I was like, oh my gosh, she did this on purpose. This is amazing. And um, and and you also said something that I laughed about was that they were they were they're so nice and so well done, and the quality was so amazing that they lasted forever.
It was like the beauty of the great business. Right now, but I'm like, I think I just threw that thing away like last year and I had it for 15 years. So um, but I so got that. And yeah, and what what a brand.
I mean, I did I say it right in the opening. I mean, I think it was one of the most successful lingerie brands ever.
Yeah, a longest license, at least. You know, it was a 25-year license. It started out, uh, I was doing sports illustrating, and I was even doing a bit of Victoria's Secrets at the time. This New Zealand company uh came to me and said, Oh, we'd like you to be the face of our brand. And I think that were they had their own company name. I said, guys, you know, it's the the best way to do this, and if you're open to to really doing something interesting and new, is why don't we?
I love lingerie and I want to design lingerie. And for me, because I can't find bras that I like. Because I, you know, I can't find the bras that I like. I I wanted French sex, you know, I'd been married to a Frenchman for 10 years. So I wanted demicup French lace, three-point cut and sew lace bras that gave you a beautiful bus line that wasn't sort of like the you know, Skim's bus line that everybody loves today. And they were fantastic at making lingerie.
They were a corset company, and um they they're they they were the first to introduce uh plastic bands, I think, that could move with your body. Do you know what that is? A corset?
No. You need to show him.
I need to. You should. Well, yeah, it's it would be restrictive and you wouldn't like the look of it. But women often have dresses like that or wedding gowns and they just pulls your body into a position.
Oh, yeah, okay.
Like the like in the old days, they had like a corset. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. That's right.
So they made great lingerie, and I wanted to design lingerie. And I said to them, listen, why don't we do this?
I will real fast, we're put us in where this is in your career. This is after calendar, of course.
This is after the calendar, this is in the 80s. Okay. Oh, that was out at all. Around that. So it was early on in my career. You know, I remember I came to America in 80.
Before Hollywood.
83. Um maybe we could went to to okay, let's get back to that. This was, I think I launched in 89.
Okay.
And so I So it was right before Hollywood, then. Just before Hollywood.
Okay.
And um wonderful New Zealand company. They wanted to a Australian face to break into the Australian market to get recognition for them. I wanted to, I wanted to pursue a passion that I had, which was to be more creative in my work.
I did it right. Okay.
To be more creative in my work. And so I suggested to them, why don't we do a thing, which I didn't know was called a license? Why don't I help you design? We can call it Al McPherson, and you can make it. And then I'll get a percentage of the sales. You can give me a, you know, 5%, 10%, whatever it is of the sales. And if it does really well, I make money and you make money. If it doesn't do well, then it, you know, no, we we both we both were entrepreneurial in our decision to do it together.
And of course, it just took off. Yeah. And we we worked together for 25 years. I had seven CEOs, two or three changes of management.
Oh, wow.
And um I would work on uh the creative design of the lingerie itself, and then all the advertising and the marketing. And it was extraordinary for me because it allowed me to really explore different facets of myself in business, you know, learning about sales, learning about um creation.
It sounds like you loved that.
I I I love being creative.
That's what it is, right? Do you remember that photo? I do.
Actually, this was towards the end of the arrangement. So this is probably after 20 years, we were changing the shape of the bras that were more for American market. And that's why you see that sort of um black, you know, like the molded bra. And um it gave me a lot of freedom.
So having a license that was consistent, again, it was going back to this idea: design, create, art direct, have the product itself be the hero, have the lingerie be the hero, not me, but the lingerie, and make you know, sales while you sleep. I mean, yeah perfect.
Yeah, which kind of I oh yeah, that's good.
I love that. That see that I had I was fascinated by India, and that was an Indian printed based, you know, um inspired by an Indian sari. And um so that's what we came up with.
How many um skews? Is that is that the right word? No, no, no.
I don't know how many, you know, how many skews. I don't know how many skews we had, but um it was it it was a very sort of illustrious and long lasting and fulfilling business decision. And and heart led. I exited after 25 years because Oh, that's right.
And then they put another supermodel and it failed.
Well, different body shape and different and not authentic in that sense. It was interesting for me because after 25 years, I felt that the licensing business model, excuse the pun, I I had sort of grown out of that. I wanted to be a shareholder of the business. I wanted to have real deciding factors about where the business was going. I wanted it to be aligned with my values. And as a license, I didn't have that kind of power.
And so that's when I started Wellco, actually, because Yeah, that was the next thing.
I was going to go there next. So let's go.
That was the next step where I could really align my values with the business values and have a meaningful contribution to a business that was growing in a direction, and I'm not talking financially, but growing in a direction of um purpose, of real purpose. And that was um, so I let go of the lingerie and I started building Welco.
Okay, so Welco is your supplement brand.
Yeah.
And um let's talk about the name real quick. And um is that what is that right there? What am I looking at?
That was one of our uh, I think that must have been in London in Selfridge's. So that's some of the products on the wall.
Okay, cool. Yeah, and you can keep putting some products up. Um so Welco, the name, right? I mean, it's it's not what you think. It'd be like wellness company, no, it's actually community, the CO, right? Or it's about a community and the wellness, and then I guess W. Well, the E L L the W is before your name.
Yeah. Okay, explain all that. I'm trying to think about it. So the E-L-L-E is my name, and then the play on words is the W. So well, well L and co being community.
Okay, yeah. So well, co-community. I I, you know, explain that though. I mean, the community, there's a whole thought about that.
Well, I mean, I was very I started Well Co in 2014. Um, and it really was a result of my own wellness journey, in that I was turning 50, and I suspect I was going through menopause. I didn't really know it at the time. Thank goodness I didn't know.
Yeah, we're gonna talk about the menopause. I was like, Meryl, you need to be here for the menopause. So no matter what, you can't. Yeah.
And I don't know if you want to talk about it now because that's the beginning of Wellco, or if you want to do a separate sidebar.
No, yeah. I mean, let's let's let's talk about it. Um, because I I think because in order, this happened even before your cancer. You developed this, your interest was health, right? That was one of the shocking things, right? It's like, you know, dang, I've, you know, done so many good things, right? But we'll get there.
Um So at WOLCO, we believe that beauty is soul deep, not skin deep. Balancing inner and outer beauty enables you to exude confidence, strength, charisma, and vitality. And so I was going, uh by the time I was 48, 49, 50, I had noticed a lot of um changes in the way my body was responding to workouts, for example. You know, the workouts I was were doing, the diet, nutrition, everything I was doing didn't seem to be working anymore.
I felt like I couldn't rely on genetics, like, okay, I'm 50, so you know, where am I at with this? And I um and I went to see a naturopath and nutritionist, and I said, listen, I'm putting on weight. I'm I I don't sleep very well. I have a low sense of vitality, my libido's out the window, my skin's changed, my skin. My skin is dry. My hair's dry.
Yeah, this is like the stuff she tells me, right?
I'm so moody. I'm sure I'm gonna get a divorce. So I wasn't even married, but I wasn't getting going to get married. I was like, this guy's never gonna hang out with me because I was so, you know, I was so emotional and I wasn't sleeping well and I wasn't feeling good about myself. And I went to see a naturopath and nutritionist, and I said to her, Listen, I'm taking all these vitamins, and I still feel really run down. She said to me, Let me have a look at those vitamins.
She said, Do you know you're taking synthetic vitamins? I was like, like I never even heard that vitamin. You probably said, What does that mean? Yeah, exactly. And she said to me, Are you peeing like bright green? I was like, Yeah. Like I thought it was a good thing. She was like, that's a sign that your vitamins are synthetic. She said, Your body's not recognizing it. They're not, you're not absorbing it. It's not bioavailable.
You're filling yourself thinking that you are getting the nutrition that, you know, the nutrients that you need. We're not getting it from our food like we used to because our soils are depleted. Uh, you know, that we are farming the soils in different ways and we're not letting it rest. So the nutrients that we would get from the soils, you're not getting from your food, and you're not getting from your supplements. So basically, you're malnourished.
And I'm like, come on, I live in London, you know. How can you be malnourished? Well, we don't, you know, when you don't have the nutrients you need to fire up your mitochondria, you you become malnourished in all sorts of ways. She put me on a greens protocol protocol. I'd never heard of greens, um, like alkalizing greens. I hadn't heard of acidity. She talked a bit to me about acidity and alkalinity and cortisol and inflammation.
And this was a site of wellness and health that I'd never explored. I was in, I'd heard sort of like calories in, calories out, carbohydrates, fruit and vegetables, protein. Very supermodel-ish. That was my realm of understanding.
And well calories in, calories out.
But you know, what's a mitochondria? Well, it's the battery inside your cell. You know, what does inflammation mean? What are the what are the symptoms of inflammation? And she said, we, you know, if we can get your cortisol down, if we can get the inflammation down, if we can get you on a more alkaline lifestyle, more hydration, have a sleep, you know, regimen. And I'm going to give you these green supplements, and you're going to start to see and feel different.
And so she was giving me these green pills that were a combination of all sorts of, you know, bioavailable vegetable, whole foods, vitamins, minerals, probiotics, prebiotics, herbs. And I started taking them. And then, you know, but like five times a day, you know, and I wasn't a pill-popping girl. Like it was like, I gotta take these green things.
But within very little time, I saw huge changes and I lost weight and my sense of vitality came back, my libido hair got so much longer and stronger, my nails changed, my skin changed. And when I saw that, I realized I wanted to share this with other people because I was sure that there must be other people that were sort of struggling the same way I was. I'm so grateful she didn't say to me, You're going through menopause.
Because if she had said that, I wouldn't have been looking for a solution. I would have just, you know, we've been told. Waiting it out. Yeah, menopause is the end of the road, and you just, you know, suck it up, and that's you know what happens.
Or or they put just women on hormones. Oh, hormones. Yeah. Which I didn't. You know, she's 58, and um, you know, I mean, she never had the hot flashes. You know, she had the sleep, but she wasn't sleep, you know, the sleep was affected, the energy was affected, but never reached for, you know, the hormones.
Um just wasn't an option.
You know, I I think when you look at other countries, they look at menopause very differently than we do in the United States, meaning they look at it as such a breakthrough to the wisdom part of a woman's life, you know, where you become a whole new person and it's celebrated. In the United States, it's it's like, oh, menopause, perimenopause. You know, you have to take hormones and now we know why they celebrate it.
The problem, Al, you know, something I teach is that, you know, hormones they can improve your blood levels, but it doesn't mean it's getting in the cell. True. And, you know, that that's the problem. Is that most women have cellular inflammation, which they can't get the hormones in. So they go back to their doctor and they, hey, look how wonderful your blood levels are better, but I don't feel better. And that's where we're at right now. And people, you're right.
They're not uh, you know, getting the right foods, obviously. Um, they're not getting the right nutrition, and they're very toxic. Toxins play. You notice we're we both of us, all of us, refuse to drink out of the plastic, right? Because endocrine, you know, and those are hormone disruptors, right? But I mean, pesticides are. There's so many things today. Yeah. So it is harder for women, um, I would say, in men, uh, you know, low testosterone.
But again, it's not as simple as taking it because that shuts your body's own production off. So your first products, I have to say this about your product line too, which fascinated me, was that you source most of your ingredients from the country of origin.
Yes.
I can't tell you how brilliant that is. Thank you. Because you uh getting a plant growing where it should grow, it knows the, you know, it knows where the sun is. I mean, it's like that's a big deal from the nutrient ability of that plant and the healing ability of the plant, I should say. And, you know, people don't understand that. Today, a plant grown in the United States in our soil, you could have the same turmeric as an example. And it's it pales in comparison.
And in a lab, we can look at that turmeric and realize, oh, that's turmeric. And by the way, a lot of times it's not. You buy a product, it's not even turmeric, but it's yellow. But and or it is turmeric, but it doesn't have any of the real nutritional value that turmeric should be grown in soil of its original source. And that's what you've done as the core of your line.
That has been so important to me because I wanted the most potent ingredients. Yeah.
And that's how you get it.
And the super elixir has more than 40, it has like nearly 50 ingredients. And they're probiotics, prebiotics, vitamins, minerals, uh, adaptogens, um, herbs. And each one of those we have taken from the country of origin so that it is the most potent form.
That's the idea.
And then you combine them because, like, you look at molyvitamin and minerals, and there are other greens companies that are very well known, and all they've done is done a shopping list of all sorts of vitamins and minerals all put together and said, okay, this is, you know, this is your greens, but they haven't taken into account how certain nutrients react together. So you want, you want like pairs and partners that are going to amplify each other. Why?
Because if you have a nutrient dent that is super efficient, you feel it immediately. It works. It's efficace. You know, it has an efficacy to it that so it's not just like a list of vitamins. It's like, well, how do they play together? How do they work as teammates to amplify the both themselves, but also how that res, you know, how your body responds to them.
So what are your favorite menopause products? And we you sent them to uh to us, but we went, I think they were. They're lost in transit. I think they went to our wrong address. But what are your favorite menopause parametric?
The first thing that I took was the super elixir greens, and that was my hero product. That is what I founded Wellco on. I I was going through menopause, I started taking that, and I saw night sweats, sleep, weight, hair, skin, nails, libido, energy, moods, all um rebalance uh after about six weeks from that one product, the super greens. That super greens product, the super greens.
By the way, I'm very critical of most super greens fruit products because you know we've tested them and they're not all that, and for the reasons we're saying, it's where they're growing the stuff and and how they're processing it.
Right.
And it it's not, but you've done extraordinary things that are thank you.
And we have a company, we have a third-party testing called the Good Pill, and they test every one of our products and every one of the ingredients for for bioavailability and for efficiency and for sourcing. And so it's not just us saying, Oh, this is a really great product, but we do have a third party that is very registered and is very well respected, going, This is it is what it says it is and more. Um and so I I started with super greens.
Now the super greens comes in like five flavors because the biggest thing that people, aversion to people, people have to greens is the flavor. And for me too. So I I wanted something that tasted good that would be something that you'd want to take every day. So we have, you know, orange, berry, pineapple and lime, lemon and ginger, unflavored, which is the sort of hypoallergenic one that I take. No. Because there's no wheatgrass in it.
Because these are plants, um, have the third party, they test for toxicity. Everything. Okay. Yeah. That's great.
Heavy metals.
There's a lot of plants and a lot of things come from the ground, all you know, have a lot of heavy metals.
Well, you'll look in California and you'll have that Prop 65 or Prop 69, whatever it is. But you know, it says it tests for cadmium, for example. But so does a bag of spinach.
Yeah.
So, you know, of course. That's what I'm saying.
If it comes from the ground, there's heavy metals. It's a matter of what level.
Yeah, what level and where they're sourced and how it's processed. Um, so we we we have 79 awards um for all of our collection. And for me, the global awards, the awards themselves, you know, they're I'm it's it's wonderful to be respected by your peers and by third party, but really it's the reward for me is our community sees a difference.
You know, their lives are improved through the products that we take and the processes and the and the programs that they, you know, that they put themselves on.
What three products? Because I have so many, you know, followers that are women out there. Okay, three best products. Yeah, meaning that they would take. You would say start right there and tell them where to get them, too. You know.
So I would start with the super elixir. It is the one and done multivitamin, mineral, probiotic, prebiotic, you know, 50 ingredients, hero product, two teaspoons in water every day. I take four because I do everything.
I do everything with bells on. That's what I do.
Yeah. Um, and so that's your foundation. That's in the morning. Don't take it with coffee, usually, like an hour out of coffee, because the coffee interferes with the absorption of the minerals in the body. You know that. You talk about that. Um, midday, protein, clean, lean protein. We all need more protein.
And especially when we go into perimenopause, menopause. Yep.
And it's it's hard to find, you know, good, clean, lean protein is really hard to find. It's inconvenient. We need more of it than ever. So we have a hydrolyzed P protein, which means that the molecules are small enough for our body to uh absorb them. It's a it's a plant. And so I would take the nourishing protein at lunch in the afternoon, chocolate or vanilla. You can get this all on the Welco site. Wellco.com.
Yeah, there you go. Wellco.com. W-E-L-L-W-E-L-L E C O dot com. Yeah, so it's the W in front of her name.
That's an easy one to remember.
Okay, dot card eating.
So, yeah, so I do a three steps well. So greens in the morning, protein in the afternoon, and then I have an evening elixir. Sleep tea or something. Yeah, well, there is a sleep tea, but this evening elixir is our new product that everybody's going crazy for because it is a potassium magnesium zinc, and it has a whole beauty blend. Hot chocolate. So you put it with water at night, it helps you with restoration and detoxification, but also skin.
And it's 13 calories, you put it, you know, it's it's a hot chocolate. Right. So having rest and um and and you know, being able to restore in the evening, detoxin restore is so important. So greens, protein, sleep, or the evening.
You even got the protocol. There you go.
There you go. Three steps. Well, yeah, you even got the if you just do one thing, it'd be the evening. Uh it'd be the super elixir. If you just do one thing, it'd be the super elixir, hands down.
All right, that was good. Yeah, because that was people are right. I can only do one thing. There you go. Okay, the cancer diagnosis. Again, I'll start this by saying you're not telling anyone to do what you did. Right. This is what was was part of the story here. This is what was right for you. And we'll get there because that is part of the story. Uh, you know, when I when I read this, I I thought, my gosh, how terrifying this was, right? Because here you are, you get the diagnosis.
I'll let you tell the story. But um I think at this point, your husband, Jeff so far, he was away and you got a call. So start from there.
I think so many women are in this, um have been in this situation where they go and they do a mammogram or they do a sonogram or they do a thermogram, and it comes back irregular. And that's what I did. I um actually did a um I had done, I had I'd been doing mammograms, nothing had shown, but I had done an ultrasound and it could be Which could have been part of the problem. Yeah. Well, now I know I would never do another mammogram.
Yeah, I know.
Yeah. And so I had an ultrasound and there was an irregularity in it. And I didn't believe them because I had had a cystoid fibroid fibroid anoma a few years earlier. So that is a that is a little sort of growth that isn't cancerous in my breast. And they took a biopsy at that time, which again I wouldn't do today, but they took a biopsy at that time and they said, no, there's no cancer there. And they put a little staple in the area to show where the where the mark was.
A few years later, I found a lump in my breast. I go, I do a uh a test, and the woman is you know, she's doing the doing the sonogram over the area, and she said, Oh, we there's some irregularity here. I said, Oh, don't worry about that. I had a thing a few years ago, it's probably just that. And I didn't think anything of it. Right. A few weeks later, or a few days later, I got a call back going, No, this is not, this is not what you think it is.
You need to come in and do a biopsy, etc. etc. And then I get on the road of a biopsy and another biopsy, and then a lumpectomy and another lumpectomy, and then you know, you it's quite a long road. I found out and I was absolutely um mortified and sort of dumbfounded. I couldn't believe, you know, me of all people, with the sort of healthy lifestyle that I had had, why I had how was it that I had breast cancer?
And um through my journey, I I decided to look deeper the same way I had to with uh drinking, you know, it wasn't why, it wasn't the what or the how much I was drinking, it was the why. And so what was and what was the root cause of the drinking? So, what was the root cause for me, for my body to manifest breast cancer? It wasn't genetic. What other practices or what other lifestyle habits or what was going on in my body at that time that allowed the terrain to develop into breast cancer?
And so I looked at everything acidity, inflammation, toxicity, lymph, you know, lymph lymphatic system, and I looked at the emotional aspects as well. You know, the breast is the nest, nurturing, and uh and I did a deep dive on all of this. Now I had just gotten married and I was starting a new life in Miami, and this was like the worst timing. It always is, but I was like, ah, how am I gonna deal with this?
And um, yeah, so it was it was uh it was not an easy time, as it's not for any woman or anybody that has a diagnosis like that, because the first thing you think of is it's a death sentence.
Yeah, so here you are. Um you had no plans on going outside of standard care at that point. Uh you got the lumpectomy, you got a second lumpectomy. That's what anyone would have done. And you're searching for a doctor. And it went on. It went on to your to the point where your assistant-30, how many?
32, I think.
Yeah, and your assistant, um, you said you were an Israeli doctor, you were looking at start another file, you said to your assistant, and she said, L, this is the 30, number 32. You really need to make a decision. And I think you both cried in that point. Yeah.
I remember that.
But I I I don't even know if you said this in the book, but the reason you couldn't make a decision is because I guess you did say it, just not maybe directly, but it was because it was grinding against who you really were. And, you know, that was part of why you weren't making a decision.
Well, part yes, to some extent. And that was very that's very astute of you to recognize that. But it there was no clear path. Nobody there was no universal decision that everybody was saying the same thing. If you do X, Y, and Z, we guarantee that you will survive and thrive, you know, even with all those different doctors. And they had different ways of approaching it. And, you know, it was like, how do I make a decision when there doesn't seem to be a clear path from any anywhere?
So here you are stuck. Someone, one of your good friends, introduced you to Dr. C in Dallas. And um Dr. C, thank God for Dr. C. You said that. Thank God for Dr. C. And I I thank God. I wanted to call Dr. C and thank Dr. C as well. So Dr. C, first of all, here's the way the conversation read. Said, he said to me, because you said, Well, I need breast implants. And he said, Well, why do you need breast implants? And you said, there was a pause. Well, because I was diagnosed with breast cancer.
And so you're thinking, like, why would he even ask such a thing? To which I replied, so I hesitated, feeling confused. So I have to have a mastectomy. And he waited a moment with a softly and asked, Well, do you think the answer is cutting off body parts? And then he told you, I think you need to go pray about it. Go to the beach and pray about it. And I found this funny, sorry. Yeah. You went and you came back and you said, Yeah, got it, figured it out. I'm going to do double mass ectomy.
I'm going to have pink hair when I go through chemo. I'm going to do this. I'm going to help other women be as bold and as courageous as I am. I mean, you had it all figured out. As L McPherson would, right?
Yeah, you had it all figured out. I was going to film it all.
This is the funny part. He said, uh, I think you need to go back to the beach. Because he knew something about you enough that he sensed that this wasn't the right decision. And you did. You went back to the beach, I think intuitively, knowing that maybe he senses something. And you got a different answer that time. What was your answer that time?
My answer was the body has the capacity to heal if you give it the right tools. And uh it is our natural, it is our natural predisposition to be in perfect health. And now what do you need to do to get there is the next part of the journey. But I I realized at that time that my body had if it had manifested illness, it could also manifest wellness if I gave it the right tools. The right tools for me could be very different to the right tools for other people.
And um that therein lies the difference. It's it's not really what you choose, it's where you choose it from.
And neither of you or I are saying this is the direction for everyone, right? You know, I mean this was your direction.
But I think a lot of our audience wants to hear that because so many people are in conflict with trying to live a healthier lifestyle. And then something happens like this, and they get pressured or they doubt the capability of will the body really heal? Is my body strong enough to do that? Do I have the fortitude to go through that?
And I I and you standing here healthy and and in conflict essentially with what you knew, but yet what you were facing, you still went through a process, but at the end of it, at the end of that search, you your truth, your truth rose. And it was it was really impactful as a to read.
I think this is your tipping point, your turning point. And I want everyone to hear this. This is page 304. I chose a holistic approach. Saying no to standard medical solutions was the hardest thing I had ever done in my life because everyone was pressuring you. Just that would be normal. But saying no to my own inner sense would have been harder. And I think that was the tipping point for you. Yeah. Because you couldn't say no to that inner thing.
And that was that value, that your deepest belief and true value. And I, you know, I just, and I have to read this part too. In keeping with this and the suggestions of putting toxic chemicals into my body twice a week for 12 weeks to kill cancer cells and other cells, and five years of hormone suppression drugs, plus a mastectomy, surgery, breast implants. I asked myself, is this the true me? Is this what the real me would choose for me? And you said, absolutely not. That was the tipping point.
Yeah.
Talk about that.
There's so much respect in that statement.
Yeah, it was a very difficult decision. And I didn't know, you know, I didn't know how, but I knew why within myself. And I always I say to people no matter what you choose, no matter what methodology you choose in your own wellness journey, as long as that is aligned with you, the the foundation of who you are, of what you believe in, it will probably, I would say, 80 to 90 percent be successful because you have the the strength of your own belief system behind it.
Yeah. And that's why you said I would never tell anyone to do what I did.
Yeah.
Because I don't know your belief system. I couldn't agree more. Because my belief system would have lined up the same way. Yeah. And but, you know, but we are able to trust in the body's healing ability.
And also to look at it not just as a physical, um, you know, oh, it's just bad luck physically. It's like, okay, let's unpack it. You know, what what is going on, you know, with all the things? What's going on with the terrain of your body? What's happening with your mitochondria? How is your acidity levels in your body? What is your pH balance like? But that's that part of it. And then what are your detox pathways like?
So then, you know, you look at that, but then it's like, what is the emotional and spiritual um aspects that that you're not addressing in your life? And that's why I realized that healing in itself from any dis ease isn't just one road of medical or physical uh approaching it from a medical-physical way, we have to approach approach it from a holistic 360 way, you know, perspective.
You did that marvelously, you know, um incredibly, because I uh, you know, we'll talk about it because you you went off on your own, which was really hard to Arizona, but I I have to have you tell this story. You were even though you found that place and you said, okay, yeah, that's not me, and this is my decision, you were still tearing yourself up about it, I'm sure, because you were probably getting pressure. You're driving along the road and you pray and you ask God for a sign.
And as it is, how God is, and Cy is in the car, your your little boy is in the car, and you come to a stop sign. Tell the story.
He's studying French. Is this uh I think we cut this out because I think I'm not allowed to say it. What is it?
Which God is it? Yeah, you said, yeah, so you played, please God, give me a sign. And as I pulled up to the stop sign, I laughed and said to myself, Is this the sign to stop crying, to stop worrying? Yeah. Cy turned and looked at me, and we stared back into each other's eyes, uh in the eyes of my son. A moment of silent passed before he gently said to me, I love you, mom, and I trust your decision. He knew what I wanted to do.
My son just knew I wanted to choose a more natural direction through everyone who was pressuring me to do the mainstream conventional chemo and radiation. Yeah. And then you went on to talk about how it's just like he's so intuitive, right? It's like it, but it took that that moment.
Yeah. So to give me confidence to because my was that place supposed to be cut out, that part? Uh no, that was something that was another part of it, but I'll tell you about it tonight. Uh what I do want to talk about during this this you know, at this moment is fear. So you know, there was fear no matter which way. It was, you know, fear if I had gone a conventional route, fear if I had done it, taken a more natural route.
And we are, you know, we are all conditioned towards, you know, fear of our own mortality, fear of illness taking over our body, fear of making a mistake. You know, anyone talks about cancer, and the first thing you think is, Oh, I'm gonna die. So having so much fear and this this chapter is really about how do you make a decision when you are racked with fear. And that was what that, you know, the whole of the cancer chapter is not about what I did.
Some people get deeply disappointed because they go, What did you do? What did she do? And I don't talk about anything really that I did.
Yeah, but you you did in a good way. My assistant, my young assistant read that chapter, and I think she read others, and it transformed her.
Wow.
Yeah, no, because it was it was about the decision. You you said you were your own worst enemy, right? The fear that you would get in, even when you were in Arizona going through, you know, doing different natural treatments, etc., you realized the power, and that's what my assistant said to me. You realize the power of your own negative thoughts. Exactly. And and so she got that. Yeah. And she got the fact that like that was your most powerful treatment is your power of positive thinking.
The biology of belief, we've proven that our thoughts can change cells.
Absolutely.
And so, I mean, all the treatments. You you did tip, I mean, ozone treatments, all the stuff that I would have done, a lot of stuff that you're and you're right. That's not the novel concept here. It was your thought process to talk about that because that was the key. I mean, you battled yourself. I have to flip to this page. This is good.
I love it.
I don't think it got anybody being so.
Well, you know, my dyslexia allows me, I have a photographic memory. So that's why I can tell every story, every skill. I know what pages things are on, right? He memorizes, yeah, exactly.
But that's so painful. Like that was such a painful. That's what I walked away with. How hard. You talked about when you would have you would have blood work done and testing done, and it was really contingent. The result was where you were in your head. Dorian.
So when I was when I thrived, to be honest, I thrived through my tree through my protocols. That was a period of my life where I where I got to know my body, I got to know myself, I um stepped into the most courageous parts of myself, and also the parts of myself that had been undermining me for a lot of my life. There was no This is why you healed. Yes, absolutely.
That is the healing. So to talk about ozone therapies, this and that, I'm you know, I wouldn't have bought it. This is why you healed.
Yeah. And that is the when I understood that my life depended upon, when I realized how much of my life I had spoken negatively about myself, undermined myself with I'm not fill in the blanks enough. And there was no room for that during this process.
I had to be completely dedicated, committed, in faith that whatever treatment I was choosing at that particular time, whatever protocol I was using at that particular time, that I was doing it from a place of love and a belief that my body had the capacity to heal from what the choices that I was doing. A lot of people think, oh, well, she didn't do anything, she just sort of drank green juice and and said, Oh, well, it'll be fine. I'll just positive think myself into healing.
No, it was much more profound than that. And um, that was one of the biggest lessons I learned. And even things about like, you know, you when you work out and you go, oh, God, I'm gonna run and I'm gonna lose weight and I'm gonna look good, my body's gonna be strong. Well, I moved into, okay, I'm on my rebounder because that helps my lymph system. And my lymph system is what I need in order to have, you know, to be able to clear the toxin from my body that I'm clearing.
And so everything had so much more purpose uh to it than just sort of the physical perfection of the body. I was in awe of the perfection of the human body as an organism that does have the capacity to heal.
God put it there.
Yeah.
Yeah. Don't you think you went to Arizona, isolated yourself from your family, your kids, which was hard. They did come out and see you when they could. Yeah. As a matter of fact, your your doctor was so clever because in your weakest or down moments, and we would all have them, he would have them come.
Right.
And that would that, you know, that love that you felt was a transformative. But to finish the this thought, there is don't you think you went there to you had to learn to love yourself. You had to learn, you had to go, because at the deepest cellular level, that was really the problem, I feel.
Absolutely.
Okay. Because that I mean that wasn't said in here, but I got that from this. I think my my assistant got this. I think Marile got that. So those of us reading the book got it, right? It's like that's that's the judge of myself.
Yeah. I'd never really looked after myself.
I know, and you did for those seven months.
And you said that you were alone, but you weren't lonely.
Yeah. And I think that was so beautiful.
Yeah, it was an extraordinary time. Uh you know, I I don't need uh thank you, Universe. Thank you, God. I do not need another opportunity for me to go as deep as I did during that period. I don't need another opportunity either. That's what I always say.
I don't need more pain to get to more purpose. I'm good.
But I learned so much, and it was a beautiful, um, a beautiful time of all the emotions, you know, the fear, the hope, the pain, the joy, the freedom, the recognition of all the times that I had. You know, I remember thinking to myself, I will never ever speak badly of my body again.
After, you know, years of going, oh, I need to lose weight, or my, I wish my you know, waist was a bit thinner, or my butt was a bit more round, or you know, all those things, but paled into insignificance uh over that time. Yeah, it just did had no, I just laughed at myself. It was like to think that I thought about those kind of things at that time. And uh I was very loved during this that period, even though I was alone. I found love in community.
Yeah, even the woman who uh went with through AA with you showed up at the right time.
Yeah, exactly. So I would go to my meetings and I would go to church and I would commune with nature, and um, you know, I met people along the way, and I was deeply supported by the universe and uh people, places, and you know, nature. And um, and that that that gave me uh strength and confidence.
I I there was something that I one of my weaknesses, I just we did this complicated test, and one of my weaknesses was my lungs, which is interesting to me, but you wrote that grief sits in the lungs. Yes. And I I have deep grief because I have two kids in my in our life because they lost their parents tragically, and who they lost was my best friend and like my sister.
So that's something that I took note of, but that I want to dig even deeper there, even though I've been digging very deep for over a decade. But there's just always something else it seems to pay attention to when your body gives you certain. Well, the body keep score.
It does that wonderful book called the issues are in the tissues, right?
Who wrote body keep score? Um You know, it holds on. It holds on. It's a cellular. I I talk and taught for years that um, you know, toxins store up in tissue and lead to cancer and other problems, right? Um, but what we don't realize is so does trauma.
Yes.
And so does thoughts and negative thoughts, not loving ourselves. And and really, it affects our DNA. I mean, it sounds hokey, but folks, you have to understand there was a a book written called Biology of Belief. Read it. Our thoughts literally are wavelengths that communicate with our cells and change our DNA. And then we literally make different proteins and we become our thoughts, for better or for worse. And I know in Arizona, your thoughts changed you at the cellular level. You said this.
You said that when you would, when you were positive and you were moving and you were happy and you were like, everything was good, your blood work, everything was moving in the right direction. You said when you would get down, it would be like your doctor would be like, okay, what's going on? Things started moving in the other direction. And that's when they would have psycom.
Yeah. It was my secret weapon.
Yeah, he was, but it would move your blood work in the right direction. I say that because that's the science. Yes. Like I'm telling you, when I read it, I knew it was your mindset that healed you. Yes, you needed to do all the things because you said you took there was a pleasure in it, knowing that you are feeding your body what it needed and wanted. And that was the physical side of it. But the emotional, spiritual side was the other part of your healing.
Yeah, and right here, this is where you're giving the litany of things that you did. It says, um, whatever road you take to return to wellness, whether it be chemo, radiation, or surgery, fasting, IVs, ozone, biotweaking, whether conventional or traditional, or alternative practices, it is ultimately your own support and commitment to yourself and your journey that is absolutely vital. You become your own champion and your own healer.
You are the one who digs deep, fortifying your inner being and belief in yourself. You are your own best friend, doctor, nurse, and more. A healer is not someone who you go to for healing. A healer is someone who triggers within you your own ability to heal yourself.
This is what I learned from Dr. C and Dr. R. And you know, I think that's so, it's just so perceptive because no matter what you're going through, anytime there's trauma or drama or pain in your life, that's whatever crisis it is, it really does begin and end with looking at yourself and being there for yourself. No matter what work I've ever done, as much as my husband loves and supports me, he can't do that work for me. Yeah. He can't even understand the work I'm doing.
But who we emerge from that pain and from that effort is our gift to ourselves. And you just, it's so empowering and satisfying to the relationships around us.
One of the things you resonated with, Marilyn, is that at a point in our relationship, probably earlier when we just met and just got married, she was looking to me to fulfill something for her. Yes. And I don't remember what counselor of hers said, you know, it's unfair to him. And you're not, it's he can't fulfill what only he can do, right? And you know, it's like in meanwhile, like, you know, he's not ever going to complete you.
And you went through that with all the amazing relationships you had. You had amazing men in your life. You know, it's like you really did. And um, you were complimentary of all of them in so many ways. And I felt that blessing for you. But you had said what she had said or learned that you were looking to get something out of them that you had to figure out yourself.
Yes. And it starts even deeper than that. The base belief that we are not enough. Yeah. And in fact, we don't have to grow and change and fix ourselves. We are perfectly unique as we are right here, right now. There's nothing to fix, there's nothing to change, there's nothing to That's the true identity. That is the truth.
Yes. Now, if you want to go on a journey where you want to become more self-aware so that you can have more joy in your life, that your life is more per has more purpose, where there's more meaning to the stuff that you do every day, beautiful. Go on that journey. Right. But to be, I believe, that we are perfect exactly the way we are.
And but as kids, oftentimes that is where that the wrong talk can enter in. It's usually in our formative years where we're, whether we're comparing ourselves, whether our parents are setting an expectation that we aren't living up to, whatever it is, is it starts that that disrupt in our thinking and taking that away from us where we do, because I did the same thing where I'm not enough or my voice wasn't, it didn't matter. My voice didn't matter. And it wasn't anyone's fault.
It was just circumstantial. The circumstances didn't allow my. Voice to be heard or me to feel like I was enough because I was always comparing myself to my friends that had a mother and a father. And so whatever that is, we really sometimes have to go back very far and recognize it and acknowledge it for the lie that it is.
And not to stew on it either.
And not to stew on it. Yeah, that's the thing. It's you know, like an analysis paralysis. Yes. I I I believe it comes from a deep belief from birth of separation. We are born feeling that we're separated because we separate from our mother during birth, and uh and we are never separate. We're not separate from from each other, and we're not separate from the source, we're not separate from nature, we are one. It's like I am Ra.
I don't know if you've been listening to I am Ra, but uh you know the power of one. No, but I I've heard a lot of it the the belief system is that we are separate, and that is where the pain comes from. And then we find uh instances of it in our life that we use as a as a oh see, I'm separate. See, I'm separate.
The one that you wrote about, which shocked shocked me is you your little sister was beautiful. And and um was she your older sister or a little bit? My youngest. Youngest, yeah. I thought I thought so. And your parents were always taking pictures of her for whatever reason. So in your mind, you said, I'm not enough. Yeah, I'm not enough. I'm not as beautiful as her. Here, here, Elle McPherson, right? It's like, anyway, let me just show you this like cute little girl in here.
I mean, look at this. I mean, look at that. Can you see that? I mean, look at that. That is so cute. I mean, that is really cute. Anyway, you know, so it's it's hard to like believe you thought that. But that that's typical, right? That we do.
Well, also the the misunderstanding is that my parents didn't have a camera when I was born. Right. You know, when I was a little girl. But see, you didn't they didn't have the money for a camera, you know. They've started to have enough disposable income to have a camera four or five years after my birth, and then they were using the camera. But my mind was they love her more than me.
The older kid, yeah, you're done now. It's like, oh, here's the new novel child.
But all that is just stories we tell ourselves. Yeah, no, you know, there's all that kind of stories about why we think we're not good enough or why, but the the bottom line.
But our perceptions are become our reality, unfortunately.
Because we do the the the the talk. Yeah, we tell the stories to ourselves.
I I think what Marile said is that it doesn't really matter how we get there, right? And you're saying the same thing. It's like, but we we develop false identities, right? And then we in our later life have to peel them back because our real identity is who God created us to be, and it's perfect. We're perfect, we're enough.
And in every given moment, as you know, while we are bringing our heart's joy into the world, that's where we feel to be perfect. When we're resting in our heart, and when we are using our heart as a compass, when we are being our authentic, unique self, unal yeah, unadulterated by fear, that's right, and and and just being the pure presence that we are, that light spirit that we are.
And then our purpose can manifest at that point too. Yes, you know, and we then we're living according to what who God intended for us to be.
And sometimes we need help, you know. I did a lot of what's called emotional um recall, you know, and emotional healing. I didn't know.
Oh, yeah, I think we all need help. Yeah. I mean, because it's it's uh, you know, it's not easy to see our true identity sometimes. It's it's easier to see other people's.
True.
Right. But I want to end with what you said. I want to end with one of your uh I thought Oh, I loved your journaling too.
Yeah. That was so deep, so policies. I'm so glad I kept them. I know. Oh, I know. There were so many nuggets. I mean, one, I was just underlining so many things. There's just so much wisdom. You're right. I had a few. Everyone needs to read this book. Um, it's it's really amazing. And it's a good deal for the holidays at the moment.
It truly reads so fast and easy, but there's so many life lessons.
So many. It's really an enjoyable read.
And you know the one thing, just before you go there, if you're not a reader, um we did the audiobook. And the in the audiobook. And Doyle. Yeah, Doyle scored it.
And in it, he amazing musician who scored it. And um amazing guy in your life right now, but it I heard it's amazing.
It is really magical. And he incorporated um healing frequencies into the segments from chapter to chapter. So, in the in the with the spirit of putting your body into a parasympathetic, your nervous system into a parasympathetic state, so that when you actually listen to it, it is calming on your nervous system. Your heart is open so you can receive the wisdoms and the gems and the messaging that I'm endeavoring to share with you.
And that it actually becomes a respite, like a meditation, to listen to the audiobook with the music.
Yeah, get the audio book, it sounds like I'll probably listen to it.
Um, you know, because really I it was such a beautiful process to do together, too.
I before you read that, we're gonna keep saying that to you. Um Do you remember coming to one of my seminars years ago? Yes, of course, I was aware. With my friend Annie Wakefield. Yes, yeah, yeah. And you know what? I remember the advice I gave you. I actually I I highlighted this as what I told her, because you were asking different questions, and I said, I said, Elle, you you have to get to the cause.
Yeah.
That's what I said. I do remember. And that's what I always teach doctors. Like, look, you've got to get to the cause. I see these doctors do this, test that, test this, that, and the other thing. And I felt that coming from you. And I was like, you just you have to get to the cause.
Yeah. I remember very, very well. Yeah. And I remember your story. I remember having dinner together. Yeah. And I remember being very captivated by how authentic and upbeat, uplifted, uh sort of inspiring you are. And how you came with you, you know what you're the master of, which I've noticed on your Instagram as well. The one liner that just makes you stop in your tracks and go, what am I doing? Like, do you I I I changed my loo paper, thanks to you.
This gal over here said the same thing. Didn't you say the same thing?
Yeah, it's so, it's, you know, you're so you get right to it and just say, This is this is what this is what's not working, this is why, and this is what you need to do. And I loved that about you because it was clean and clear and simple for us to understand. And um, sometimes we just need somebody to highlight the stuff that we don't know.
Yeah.
And you do that so well.
No, I appreciate that. Thank you.
And yeah, I do remember you saying to me, you've got to look at the root cause.
Yep. Because I knew that I knew that you were this was this and this and this, and you were looking for the one thing, the one thing, the magic pill, the like anyone would. Yeah. Right? But it was like cause.
Yeah, you found it.
And you got it. You got there. That's why when in your book, I like this, because I'm like, she did it. She got that. Read that. Let's finish with that right there. It's beautiful.
I have learned that love is what really matters. We are all simply learning to give and receive love unconditionally. My life and its experiences have been that journey. I deeply wish that you learn love, firstly of yourself, then of others, then of life itself. It is your true nature.
It's that's what you learned in Arizona. How to love yourself, right? And love life itself. And life itself. You said in uh Arizona at one point you realized, uh-oh, I'm not having fun. You got too L. McPherson, you got too dialed in, right? And that was an I that was a breakthrough.
Yeah.
Because you realized that about your personality and you started having fun.
And I and then you went for walks in the botanical garden, right?
Cacti and cacti butterflies. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Anything. I you know, love is the most beautiful lubricant. Love and laughter. You know, laughter opens the heart. Absolutely. See, it is a it is so important. So find what you love and do it. And I say this to the boys find what you love and do it. And when you do that, you'll never work another day in your life. Amen. That's so true. You'll be so good at what you do because you've you're putting your heart into it and you enjoy doing it.
And we thought you were just a supermodel, look good on uh sports illustrating. Just another pretty face. Yeah. No, I told you you'd love her more. Didn't I tell you? Didn't I tell you?
I I walked away just with such a respect and admiration for the inspiration that I read. And I and I just thought, you know, God doesn't waste our pain. And it's never just for us. It is for the hurting world. And you, this book just it just hits on every challenge that we have as humans. And and your circumstances are your own, as each of ours are. And it was just really beautiful. I encourage everyone to read this book.
I guess. And Welco, go to uh W E-L-L-E-Co.com and you can get three products that she recommended. Um, and anywhere else they should go to find out more about Elle McPherson.
Anywhere else? Yeah. I mean every everything is on the Welco website. That's my passion. It is a business built for me. It is a passion.
And you said that. You love the brand, you love the underwear, the the the underwear, what I call it, the underwear. The the lingerie.
The bras and knickers. Yeah. Knickers.
But you realized at one point you the purpose. And Wellco is a purpose business journey. It's a purpose-driven person. And that's why it's such a damn good product.
To help people on their wellness journey and be back in the driver's seat of their wellness journey.
Absolutely.
They can, you know, flourish and bring their true nature, their true beauty from the inside out into the world. Because, you know, with wellness you can. And that is for me, has been one of the biggest learnings I've I have come into through all the twists and turns, through menopause, through my journey with cancer. Welcome is the birth of all of that, of all the things that I've learned. And getting to meet wonderful people like you bring me to tears. Me too. Yeah.
Thanks for being here.
Thank you for having me.
Yeah. I it's uh it's an honor and a privilege. I looking back in the uh 80s as the young man looking at the uh Sports Illustrated Who would have thunk I would be here interviewing Al McPherson.
Talking about life and love.
Oh my gosh. Yeah, I'm 60. So yeah, we were right there. We were right there together. That's why New York resonated. I knew the palladium, I knew all this. See, we could just keep going. We have we have to end it. Thank you so much. Yeah, and share, share this, share this. So many people need to hear it. Share the show. Really like and share it. You're gonna like it no matter what. But share the show. Absolutely. Thank you, guys. Yeah, what a blessing.