A passionate instigator and dynamic problem solver. Doctor Kevin ross Emery, the host of the Doctor Kevin Radio Show, will be taking you outside the box, behind the curtain and identifying the load of bs we are fed every day. And now Doctor Kevin, Hello, Hello, Hello, and welcome back to the Doctor Kevin Show here on own times, where we're changing the world wait for it one oh of the time. And as we've been referencing and we're
still working out the detail. Starting sometime in January of twenty twenty four, we are doing a faith list and an overhaul of this show. I do that every now and then. After eighteen years, I've had enough faith lists to give Joan Rivers a run for her mind. And our current facelift will involve Ashley Olstein being a my regular co host. I think you're my fifth co host in eighteen years. She's here already trumping at the bit helping us
move things forward. So just you know, keep your eyes open because one of these weeks you're gonna chime in and it's not going to be the Doctor Kevin Show anymore. But you're gonna have to keep tuning in to find out the new name the new tagline and all that jazz, and all that jazz is not the name ash How are you, my dear? I am good. How are you doing today? Well? You know I was up doing my clients walking around in forty in twenty four degree weather. I wish it
was forty two twenty four degree weather. I chugged in five miles and four hours of clients before noon. A good job, you know, and then I sent the afternoon as a possicle stick tried to just thaw. No. So before we bring in tonight's guest, is there anything new and exciting going on in the wonderful world of miss Ashley? Hm? Let me think well.
Tomorrow night at six thirty Eastern Time until eight thirty, New Hampshire Metaphysical is hosting a there every other month's online psychic message circle, So I will be there and I believe you will be as well. I know you will be. So you can find out more information at New Hampshire Metaphysical dot com, which is nh Metaphysical dot com. So that's tomorrow the fifteenth. Do
you have anything what else monthly book clubs left for this year? Or have you well clubbed out because you do a month we have, Yes, I do a monthly book club. We were clubbed out for the year. We did our last meeting last week, but our next meeting is being held on wait for it, Tuesday, January twenty third, and we're diving a little
deeper this time. We're going to do a Brene Brown daring greatly, but we're only going to do the first half so that we have time to really pick it apart and dive in and see how it can help us from day to day and you know, talk about the things we agree with and the things we don't agree with. So I'm looking forward to that. That's also found it an h Metaphysical, New Hampshire Metaphysical dot com on the calendar. It's January twenty third, and we hold it online from seven pm till eight
thirty ish. Well, because I know that we have an author on tonight and we'll see if he's up to enough snuff that you do his book for one of your books, for one of your book clubs. Hint, hint, weink, wink, nod nod. Right, Yes, Stranger things happened. Stranger things, strange things that happened. You know who knows you might even say, hey, we'll do your book for book club if you want to make a guest appearance and answer some questions about it. You know,
Hey, hey, you never can tell. All he can do is say no. But he doesn't want to say no before the show's over, or we'll have to accidentally disconnect him. Whoops, whoops ooops. How I have? I finished my last set of events last night. I have no events, no professional events for the rest of the year, and I fly else to thirty first to go to can Kum for a week and a second honeymoon.
And I am looking forward to coming back in fit, energized shape, not this low pathetic energy like I have tonight, but really ready to tear up the new year Invitamin d hit, Yes for sure? Is that what they're calling it these days? Oh boy, okay, but I'm out, but I'm bump. Speaking of but I'm bumped. I'm gonna bump dump, bump dump it over to you to introduce tonight's guest and to get this ball rolling. That's me. He hasn't hung up listening to the first five minutes
of the show. He may be like, am I going to talk to my pr agent? I'm on here. This is a crazy, wacky ship who absolutely well. Tonight we have Christopher Hadnaggie. He is a global security expert and a master hacker. He is the founder and CEO of Social Engineer LLC, the creator of the popular Social Engineer podcast, which is a website
and a newsletter. He designed Advanced Practical Social Engineering, which is the first hands on social engineering training force and certification for law enforcement, military, and the private sector professionals. He's also the first adjunct Professor of Social Engineering for the University of Arizona. He is the creator of the Human Hacking Conference, which is an annual conference focused on training people who hack themselves to achieve their
goals. I hope we talk more about that tonight. A highly sought after writer and speaker, he has spoken at events such as RSA and Black Hat and given numerous presentations for corporate, government, and military clients. He is the best selling author of four books, one of which is called Human Hacking. When Friends influence people and leave them better off for having met you.
Drawing from his knowledge, he has created a book that empowers readers to enhance their self awareness, sharpen their communication skills, and achieve personal and professional goals. So hi, nice to Christopher. Chris. Chris Christopher had Maggie. Chris Christopher is like, when I'm in trouble. Oh well, nice to meet you, thank you, nice to be here, and thank you for
that great introudle Chris Christopher. Tell me, now I'm in trouble. You see, Now I have to not sat up street as soon as you said that. Hey, you know, we're pretty laid back in this show. We don't expect anyone to be straight, so so tell me. So, I want to wrap my head around something and then I'll see what what questions Ashley has. But your original expertise in hacking was more like technological. Am
I correct you are? Yes? I was something called an exploit writer and a network pen tester, so writing software code that would hack other pieces of software and hacking computers through through other computers. Oh oh, how much time did you get caught? Was there jail times? No? No, that's a great question, as I should have. I should have led with that, because that's usually is the is the what people think happened and how you get into this field. But I was always on the good side. So
if you think about this. Companies hire people like me to to come and hack them so we can tell them how we do it before the real bad guys do it. Like thinking I was like going to a doctor to get a physical. You get pope prodded, you know, X rayed. Doctor comes and says, hey, I found a few problems, you know, and then then they fix them before they turn into something you know, life and death. That's all we do. But we do it for your computer
network and your people. Okay, So I am very interested in the bridge crossing because you know, I did all sorts of stuff in the business world before I started my own business, which is very people centered and I've been
at it for thirty four years now. But to tell people who know me now that I like started in accounting that I actually did something in computers when they took up the whole basement and the bottom of the bank floor, uh, you know, and stuff like that, and they go and you're an inspirational catalyst and work with with with people and business and do all of this
stuff. Like where did all of that come? And so I'm fascinated how you made the jump from hacking code to it now sounds like hacking people, Am I am I on the right trail or did I miss you were on the right trail? Okay, So this is an interesting, an interesting story. And I'm not sure how far back you want me to go, but go over back. Yeah, however far back do you feel like you need
to go to give us context? How about you to always tell my guests tell us to me like, I'm a five year old and someday I'll hit sick, but it a happening this year. It starts around that time, right, Because when I was a kid, I found this weird knapp that I had of getting into places and jobs and things that I had no right being. Like at seventeen, I was a vice landlord for a big apartment
complex because I was doing delivery of papers, accounting papers. And I walk in the office and this guy is sitting there chain smoking and looking like he's about to jump off a bridge. And I just like, hey, man, what's going on? You're okay? And he started telling me his life story. His wife left him, took the daughter, went back to Wisconsin, and I'm like, want you go after if you still love her, go after. He's like, I got to run this place. I'm like,
I'll run it for you. An hour and a half later, I got a job as a as a vice landlord for an apartment complex, and I'm running this place for like a year. Guy says, I don't want to come back this lot of you know, what are we going to do? I said, you want me to sell it? He's like, you know how to sell an apartment? Said noah, but I can try. I sold the thing for a couple of million bucks, right, sold myself out of a job. Not really great. Later on in life, I
was driving down the road looking for a job as a restaurant. Says chef wanted. I walk in. I go, hey, I'm your next chef. Guy says, what credentials do you have? Where'd you go to school? I'm like, forget about all that. Let me cook you something. I cook something in this guy's kitchen for him. He hires me on the spot. I have no clue what I'm doing, right. I mean, I'm a good home cook, but that's about it. He says, Okay,
I need you to Julianne these carrots. I don't even know what Julianne means, so I say to him, listen, Tom, everybody I've ever worked for Julian's a little bit, So why don't you show me your method and then I can do it right for you. And he's like, I really like you, young man. That's a great that's a great attitude. So he shows me. Now I know what Julianne is. Every time he asked me to do something like hey, can you show me rough chop? Can you show me this? And then he would show me his method.
I learned it. I was there for a couple of years. I became a chef under this guy's footelage. Never went to school for it. Okay, jump forward. Now I'm doing the hacking and the exploit writing and stuff like that, and I actually stink at it, like I'm really bad. But I worked for this company. I loved my job. So we would get these tests, these audits where we'd have to break in the companies, and I would say to the boss like can I can I just call and
ask for a password? And they were like, why would anyone give you a password? I'm like, I don't know, but can I try? Sure? So I try it, and I'd call up and say, hey, this is Paul. For my t we had a database problem. I need to reset your account. What's your password? And people would give me the password. I come back to the boss and say, hey, here's the password for the accounts. It's like, what the heck. I started doing this every test and they were like, this is crazy. Then the
cis and this is where the shift came. Client says to me, great, you did it, but why did it work? And I said, I have no clue, don't know why it worked. And this one client looks at me and he says, you know if I went to an auto mechanic and I said, hey, I got a problem with my car and it's making this noise and he listened to it and he said, yep, that's your alternator. And then I went, great, fix it and he goes, I don't know how, because I'd be really ticked at that auto
mechanic. And I'm like, you've got a good point. You got a really good point. So I said, Okay, I guess I'm gonna have to figure that out. So I started buying books and reading everything on influence, persuasion, rapport building, nonverbal communications, psychology, decision making, the amigdala. I started reading everything I can get my hands on and I built a framework, and the framework came out in two thousand and nine, about two thousand and eight, two thousand and nine, I put it online.
I thought it was just going to be a fun, little side project. And then the world's most famous social engineer, Kevin Mitnick, he got arrested and went to prison for social engineering all tell and the FBI. He got out of prison, and he became a really good guy. He started doing a living. He wrote a bunch of books. His publisher calls me, she says, hey, do you want to write a book about that framework you just put out? And I'm like, I'm not an author. I'm
just like a little hacker guy. And she's like, no, no, you got to write a book on this. No one's ever done this. I'm like, Okay, I'll write a book. So I wrote my first book, and two came out in twenty ten. And when that book came
out, everybody was calling and asking about consulting. And that's when I left doing that other stuff and went over to the human side and realized that I needed to keep teaching myself and learning and reading every day because there's so much stuff when it comes to science and psychology and understanding how people think and work, and that leads us to right now, sitting here with you, and four more books later. So I've got to have an odd question for you,
which is how'd you do in school? Not a lot of question. I was a very, very bad student. But here's the thing. I was a really bad student because I'm not a traditional learner. But then it would be these things like I remember in my tenth year, I'm about to fail, right, I'm like, the teachers pull me in and they're like, man, if you don't get straight b's for the fourth quarter, you're
not going to graduate, Like you're going to get left back. So I just I got straight a's for the fourth quarter and they were like, if you can do that, then why don't you do that all year? And I'm like this on board, right, It's just I didn't like it. So that was my school. I was never I did what I needed to do to get out of school, but I did not. I was not a great I was not a genius student. That was not one of those people that was like on the honor roll and excelling at everything. Do you
have any idea why I asked you that question. I don't, but I'm going to take a guess that it has to do something with like what the chaotic mind or something like that. I was thinking more along the terms of a d D and ADHD. Oh, I don't know if I have that. That's a good question. I would strongly suspect you're one of my kids. From everything, everything so dead. I always wonder where my dad was doctor taking my father out. Yeah, I don't expect an inheritance. That's
what I was going for. Man, I was like, Dad, I need some money. I'm gonna you got four books out in your You're aren't here and you're stomping around and you're doing all the fabulous stuff and you need money. Well, right there. Interviews over Astley, let's talk about weather. So I actually have several books out on a d D and ADHD and have had stuff out that have been working with us since the late nineties. And I look at add as part of the evolutionary process brought me in the
bed with the humanity and other disease disorder or disability. And you are definitely a shade on my ADD ADHD rainbow and just everything. The way that you do it, it's like, it tells me that this is and my books are all start out with the words managing the gift. Again, I don't see it as a disability or but it explains how you move through the world the way you did, which in some ways parallels some of my journey. I'm not going to get it. This interviews about you, not me,
but I have some parallels with you. And I'm an add poster child and I'm like, oh, one of my kids welcome. So anyways, that's why I asked. I was like, yep, I know what's on the other side of this. So Ashley, I'm gonna stop talking long enough for you to ask questions or or or or poke at this imposter's story. What do you yeah, I can be that, I'll figure it out. Sure. I never did get dangerous, like I never went to be a surgeon or you know, like a pilot or anything like that. I didn't do
anything like that. I wasn't Frank Evan, you know, you know, I didn't do anything that hurt people. Just I was an international negotiator for stainless steel in India and China. I was an accounting software salesperson, you know, a chef, but I owned a window cleaning business for a little while, you know, so I did a bunch of different things like that. A butcher, a baker, a candlestick maker. Yeah, my kids, that's it. Actually, I'm I am unlike Kevin. I am not
an expert with add ADHD, but I would agree with Kevin. I think just even what you said, you were a non traditional learner, and you were able to figure out the back door into all of these things in a way, and you're stiffer charismatic. Seems that you can really just kind of talk your way into any of those things. So not surprising that you're onto
the human hacking. I love it. I think that's so interesting and fascinating and I guess it might be jumping ahead, But how are I mean, most people, I think are pretty pretty much the same that you know, everyone's personality is a little bit different, but I think people's behavior can be pretty much predicted. Am I in agreement with your studying? Yeah? So what I found is that when it comes to communication, right, I use a tool called DISC, a disc profiling tool, and it puts people into
four different quadrants of communication types. And what I've found is that if you can predict the type of communicator that somebody is, then you often can predict how they will answer or react to certain types of questions or stimuli. Right like you know you have like I'm gonna take a guess, like doctor Kevin is a high eye, you know, very out there, energetic in the spotlight, very happy. You know, jovial, doesn't mind poking at himself.
These are all kinds of high eyes. So you know, eyes will will react very well to to high praise questions, to things that are high
energy, to stories that are exciting. They'll react very well to those things where you seem more like like maybe an s like a supportive type, someone who like really loves the team, you know, gets behind other people succeeding and things like that, and that that is not someone who really enjoys the spotlight as much or wants stories to have a little more of a team benefit
to it, and things like that. So once you understand how people communicate, you can then alter your actions, your pretexts, your and your expectations because you can then usually qualify how most likely they'll act when you present X, Y and Z. So I know if I do this, if you're an eye, you're probably going to act this way, and that can mean I can I can I can prophesy if that's a bad word, but I can foretell how you're going to probably react to the scheme, and then that
can put me in a good place. Fascinating, And what about and what are the other two categories? I don't think I'm an act by the way, Oh no, okay, you'll get a base. So I think that if you know any think that in a certain But I'm curious that the other two are sure. So the other ones are deep, which which is very good because you just said, like, oh, I don't think I am, and that's a very de characteristic which someone who's very direct does not mind
being direct direct people, but which is what I am. So direct people oftentimes can be confused with like maybe being blunt or or abrasive, but it's just that we're very direct in that direct people are task oriented and and very you know, very focused on the task. And then the last one to see what you are conscientious people. Those are those who really love the lists.
They love things being organized, they love things that's be's color coded and yeah, so they love all that kind of stuff and those people are often very task focused also and indirect. So the d's are direct and task focused, the c's are or task focused and indirect. The eyes are people focused and direct, and the sas are people focused and indirect. Fascinating. Okay, so go ahead, ash, No, No, it's you, It's
all you. So one of the things I've you know, I like, I preferred to you being like, uh, one of my kids, right and you know, and you know and and being like A I don't know if I set a shade on the rainbow, but you know I have this they that's got sixty four shades that breaks ad A dhde out into. And one of the things when I was creating that and dealing kind of in a parallel way like what you're doing, only I was specifically doing it for the
A D D ADHD is that there are situational shifts in letters. Do you find that to be true that somebody could be a D at work and might be or an I at work, and they might be an S at home and they might be PAY with their birth or C with their birth family. Do you find that situational affects your disc model mobile one per one hundred and not only that, but not for everybody. For some people, like in my profile, well, it's like what you see is what you get.
I am. I am who I am across the board, no matter where I'm at. But a lot of people have a much different profile for when they're at work than when they're with their loved ones and their family, when they don't have to be a certain type of person or personality. Right, And you could probably think of someone famous, like let's say, like Jim
Carrey. You know, when you ever you get like intimate looks into his life, he is so calm and solemn, even like almost a little sad, as opposed to what he is in the movies and what he is on interviews, and he just does not appear like that person when he's just sitting there privately. Well, and you know, I think it's interesting, you know, because I know that when I am doing a radio interview, when I'm speaking on a stage, when I'm teaching a client, if I'm at
a networking event, I rise comfortably to that equation. And people have this impression that I am very extroverted, and I actually am on the borderline of an extrovert. Introvert every time I've taken the test, I'm only a few degrees on one side or the other. Like what you you show no introvert, I'm like you never see it. And radio personality, yeah, I mean like I'm I'm game for whatever is going on. You don't. I
don't show up with this personality. You know at a funeral, the tend the funeral, right, Well, if it's mine, I'll show up with it. But that's a side hope not are you kidding? I'm going to shoot a five hour video that's going to be playing over my casket. They're going to have to watch now. We are all here, JN. So don't worry, none of you'll be around to see it. I'm all living,
all of you. There is the music. I was expecting that we're going to get more into disc We're going to get more into PRIs and we're gonna find out more about human hacking when we get back here on The Doctor
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left out, and for some that feeling lasts more than a moment. We can change that. Learn how it Belonging begins with us dot org. Brought to you by the AD Council. Welcome out and shoes. Hello, Hello, Hello, and welcome back to the Doctor Kevin Show, where I'm here with my co host Ashley Old and i am here with our guest. Would you like to do a mini reintroduction, miss ash of him. You can cut it down to like two sentences, Yes, I would. Today we
have Chris Hadnaggie who is a people hacker. He has compiled his knowledge over the year years and has written four books, one of which we're hopefully going to talk about in a little bit called human hacking, when friends influence people and leave them better off for having met you. Nice to be here, and where could they find your book? Chris? It's any where the books are sold. Yeah, they can Amazon. I have them on Amazon. I have many where the books are sold. The last one was up published
by HarperCollins and the first were published by Wiley. So they're basically everywhere they get around. Sounds like you they get around. Yeah, yeah, that's good. Before we let Ashley drag you into more depth in the book, I do have one question I'd like to throw out to you. What is the difference between this hacking that you talk about people hacking, human hacking, okay, and people manipulating rage question. Yeah, that is a really nice
one. So I'm gonna say that both of them can fall into the same category. But it depends on your intent. So when we see malicious people use the very same skills that I use every day, their intent to steal your money or your identity, or to exploit you or extort you at some point, their motive is always selfish and it is to damage you for their benefit. People like me and myself, we do this for the benefit of helping companies to improve. So I won't use pretexts. I won't use acts
that wouldever make someone feel shame or guilt or anger. I ban myself and my employees from ever using things like sexual pretext or pretext that you offer to fire someone if they don't comply, or flirtation, because those things don't offer a training instance, and they make people feel shame and they make them feel better. The bad guys, they'll use any tactic. I mean, right now, there's a horrible scam going around on our young people where these groups
of folks are coming into gaming sites. They're chatting anywhere from eleven to eighteen years old up and they're getting them to send new pictures and then once they do that, they're now extorting them. And they're having them steal money from their parents and wire money or use credit cards or send money through zell or something like that to these people who are extorting them, or they're going to release those pictures online and it's just horrific. So like when you think of
that, it's the same. Sadly, I hate to make the comparison the same exact skills that I use each and every day, but I would never do that. I would never do something so unethical and immoral. So it's just a matter of how you apply those skills that makes the difference into if it's malicious or if it's not. See, because I teach a healing course for people that want to learn to do what I do with people, and
I teach a whole component on positive versus negative manipulation. Yes, and some of how you're describing it is is that you know, are you trying to create a win win win situation? Is it in the best interest of that person and you're just trying to get them to see it is in their best interests so as you assess how they need to hear or what they need, you know, like how do I communicate with them? Things like that. So I find this. I actually have run across your disc stuff before.
When you said it, I was like, oh, I know that, but I couldn't find the file and the file folder. I'm old, and so I know I've seen DISK. I know I've been exposed to it. I know I've read about it. I don't think i've read the book, but I know I've come across it before. So but anyways, but that's that's the question I wanted to ask. And so, yeah, no,
I love that. I love that thought because, like you know, I like, in the same token the book that we're talking about that was about like applying these same skills I do every day for work with applying them in everyday life. And people will ask that question, well, then, if you're doing it to get things in your life, aren't you manipulating people? And I'm like, no, because you can. If you give people a way out, if you give them the freedom to make a choice to not
comply with your wishes, then you're not manipulating them. It's it's the bad guys you feel like you have no choice, like if you don't do this, I'm releasing these pictures. Or if you don't do this, I'm getting you fired. Or if you don't do this, I'm hacking your computer. You know, they they use methods that employ if you don't do this, something bad happens to you. If you use these skills in life, even
to get something for yourself. As long as the person has the choice to say I'm sorry, I can't help you right now, then you're giving them that freedom and that dignity to be able to walk away without harm. And that makes you a manipulator. Yeah, so again, you know, I'm very much about Manipulation in of itself is simply a word, and it's the adjective that we put the adverb. Sorry my English teaches rolling over in her grave, that the adverb that we put in front of it, that determines
what is the color the shade of the manipulation. And yeah, I like that positive and negative. And you know sometimes and we all manipulate. If you have ever had a kid and you're trying to get them to eat their vegetables, you manipulate them. Here's the airplane, open your mouth. There's the manipulation, right, we all do it. It's how we do it and why we do it and what our intention is. And intention is so important. So Ashley Grillim on his book, Let's wind out it, Let's
find out Well. One question I was thinking of before we get into the book, which is kind of of a segue, would be, by learning these skills and reading the book and digging into it, can you kind of see the manipulation coming positive or negative? But I'm mostly talking about a negative manipulation. You know, does it help like shore you up for being prepared for these kinds of you know, hacks, human hacks. Yeah, yeah, that's a great question, and I would say the answer is yes.
It's kind of like I use an analogy like going to uh, let's say, a boxing gym or a martial arts gym, and you say to the trainer like, I really want to learn how to defend myself, and he, you know, he shows you, and months later, you know, you're you're you're you're at the heavy bag, you're hitting a heavy bag, and then someday you're out and somebody you know goes to take something from you.
You find your muscle memory kicks in and you're you know, you just you react without even thinking about it, like you didn't have to think, and all of a sudden, ben you or you took an action like whoa, how did that happen? That's practice, right. So it's the same with these skills, is that you the more you know about it, and all of a sudden you see someone taking a tactic, you think, wait, waite, I know what's happening here. It's like, I understand what's
happened. This guy's trying to manipulate me to giving my password or to give them a credit card, Like I see that. And the more ware we are of those things, the easier it is for us to defend against them. And and this is a two edged sword, right because I say this and then people go, well, that means I got to go tell my
mom and my grandma all these all these things. And I'm like, well, there's a there's a caveat to that, right, if you don't take your young children and sit them down and talk about sex stortion, you know, you have to do things that are age appropriate and also feel appropriate while still trying to employ this principle of keeping people informed. That they can be armed and defend themselves properly. Cocha did you say sex stortion? I did.
That's a new phrase coming and thank god, but yeah, that's a good one. That's a good fun even a phrase, a good word. It's as sadly it is the it is the thing that I was describing before about how we're seeing these groups of people get young children to do this, and they started calling it. The FBI started calling it the extortion because they're using these, you know, sexual images to extort children. But it's not
just children. We see this happening to grown adults too, So it's just a it's a really really malicious form of this, these type of hacking that that can really damage people. Understood. All right, Well, well one of one of the things that you said that I want to comment on and then I'll let She gave me the opportunity. So I took a breath. It's fine, you took well, you took a breath, and you asked
a question off script. I didn't ask about the book, no, So so I don't wanted to things and I want to see you brush by something. And I know one of the things that I teach my students. The people I work with is that the person with the highest like emotional IQ has the responsibility for the communication in the situation. And you talked about the appropriate skill level, and skill level is not necessarily have anything to do with age
or education. It's actually about what is your EQ, what is your IQ? What is your communication? You know, like, what is your communication capability? Do you go through things like this in that book? Yes? And I love that because it's exactly true. I mean, I have worked with people. I have some people that work with me now here at my company that have not done anything in the field of human decision making psychology. Have a guy that works for me, he was a collections agent. I
have a woman that works for me. She was a sign language interpreter. Another one that was a hotel accountant, nothing to do with cybersecurity. They're amazing at this job, right And the fact that what you just said is just so fascinating to me because it was just what is today Thursday? I think it was just Tuesday or Monday. I released an article on LinkedIn that was about someone asked me a question of what is the number one skill that
makes a great professional social engineers? Not a malicious but a professional social engineer. And I said it was empathy, because if you have empathy, I can I can understand that what I'm about to do may hurt this target. So I better use ethical means, I better use kindness. I better treat them with dignity because I want them to be able to learn and not feel humiliation and shame and all the negative emotions that can come from being hacked.
So I've got to treat them properly. And an empathetic person makes a wonderful professional social engineer because they're always thinking about the other person and not about themselves and the win. So I love that you said that, because that is one hundred percent true skill can be taught. You can teach. You can teach communication, profiling and questioning and rapport building. Those things can be taught. I've been teaching classes for the last fifteen years doing that stuff. Empathy
is really hard to teach. So if someone has that, if they're just they're going to be a much good a professional at this. Well, you're you're talking. If you were playing poker, you'd be against two full houses on this conversation. So yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a double edged sword as well. But I'll take it. Yes, So go ahead, Ashley Grilling, Grilling, get him Eric. So I want to talk a
little bit about like body language. I know that it's reference in your books, so body language and verbal cues, So share a little bit more about that, please, sure. So when I when I started realizing how important communication was going to be to my job, right, So when I when that book came out and people started asking me to consult, there was an industry around this at the time, right, So there was nobody else doing
this as a professional and doing it solely as a job. So when I decided, I remember coming home saying to my wife, Hey, I really I want to start a company that was just social engineering. She's like, okay, how many people do it and how much do they make? And I'm like, nobody on Earth does it, so I can't answer question two. And she said, okay, well you got to. You know, you're going to just quit the job then and start this thing that no one else does. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, what's what I want
to try. So we did that. Right as I started doing this, I started to realize that understanding communication was going to be vital if I was going to be successful in this. And one of the things that quickly occurred to me was that what we say is such a little part of actually what we're actually saying, what we're trying to communicate, our nonverbals have so much more to do with it. And I kind of learned this from reading a
book from a man named doctor Paul Ekman. The book's name was Emotions Revealed. It was a phenomenal book about his research into show expressions and how facial expressions each emotion and show emotion, and how our emotions are linked to the type of expression on our face. So I started to read that book, and then I picked up books by Joe Navarro and books by me Coulting, and books by all these people that just were experts in nonverbals, and it
opened up a whole world for me. I was fascinated that there was so much research being done into how our bodies are conveying language. And then I had the amazing privilege of meeting doctor Ekman and having him be one of my mentors in my life, and we co wrote a book together that is one of my social engineering books, about about how malicious social engineers and scammers throughout
history have used nonverbals to make the people feel like they're more trusting. But you know, back to the original question you asked, is I can't express enough how important it is for two parts of nonverbals, One that you understand what you're seeing, and that two you understand what you're giving what you're sending.
And I think the sending is even more important than what you're seeing because one of the things I learned through the years in doing this is and this this statement is like, I hope if anyone gets into this they remember this. Just because you can see the what doesn't mean you know the why. Right, So if you and I were together and I look across the room and I see you have anger on your face, does not mean I know why you're angry. And there's absolutely no nonverbal on the planet that can tell
me the why. So to get to the why, I have to have the freedom and the ability to ask questions, to interact with you you to understand why that emotion was there, and that may not always be appropriate. So oftentimes when we're learning nonverbals, the mistakes we make is because I can read them, I must know what you're you know why you're feeling that way, and that is just not the truth. That's a pretty powerful statement.
I think that that can be applicable in a lot of situations, relationships, and interactions. That's that's a good one. I like it. And if you apply that in so many parts of life, it's amazing how well it works, right, And we've tried to you know, my wife and I
have tried to apply it with our kids and raising our kids. And I'll say, well, not always perfect at it, but you know, sometimes things happen and you just don't know why it happened, but I can tell you what happened, and the communication always breaks down when we make the assumption, well, my daughter did that because she doesn't respect me and my rules, right, Well, that really the truth that if I say that, then basically I'm making an accusation, and I'm making an assumption that the only
reason she did that was because she doesn't respect me, Whereas if I ask questions, I might find out that she had a bad day or somebody at works, that something mean to her, you know, boy in school treated her bad or something, and that that wasn't about me even or my house rules. It was about her feeling bad. So it's the ability to kind of step away from your own ego and understand that a good form of questions and communication can stop so many miscommunications. Oh yeah, questions are so much
better than assumptions. Also, because we are a wooh wooh Waco show here on ome times, I also encourage people to to lean into their intuitives that the intuitive sometimes can give us clues of what's the good question to ask, or what's the dialogue that we can put down that may be opening up the questions now because of the example you used, and I've done a lot of multi generational work with kids and parents and even three generations in the same room
sometimes trying to sort out through stuff. I have to say though, one of the questions is, well, if your child disrespects you, how respectful have you been to your child? Yeah, because parents don't get if if your child sees you being disrespectful to each other or you're disrespectful for them, they are always going to do what you have role modeled more than what you say one hundred percent agree and you know, like it's not really a curbble.
I really like what you said about intuition because when I talk about nonverbals, and I teach on this a lot, and I give speeches on this topic. And Ashley, I'll ask you this question. Have you ever been in a room with a group of people and somebody you don't know. That's usually a guy that you don't know, but he just gave you the creeps? And you don't know why. He didn't say anything you, you didn't do anything, you didn't touch you, but he gave you the creeps.
Oh, totally. I had two daughters and I've taught them about the creep meter. I'm like, honor it, you know, feel it, know it, honor it, and bring it with you wherever you go because there's there are creeps around. But yes, I totally get that. And that's intuition and intuition actually yes, And that is the Point's actually science behind that intuition, right, is that our nonverbal systems, right, So, our our five senses are constantly going out into the world and seeking for feedback.
Rights. Our eyes are obviously picking up way more than we than we perceive. Our other senses smell, our feeling, We're picking up on things that that we may not even perceive that we're picking up, and all of that enters into our brain, into the center called the amygdala, and the amigdala takes all those modalities and the sin stimuli from it and it says, hey, there's danger here, and it starts to create psychological and physiological processes that
say, hey, there's some danger here. Now. It doesn't like to tell you what the danger is, because that's not the amigdala's job. The amigdala's job is do you need fight or flight? Now? Do you need adrenaline to protect yourself? Do you need to crawl into a ball? Like? What do you need to do? That's its job, So it doesn't give you the explanation. It just starts to create that feeling that Okay, something is not right here. And oftentimes, and I love what you say
to your daughters to trust that and bring that with you. Oftentimes parents don't do that with their kids. When kids are saying I don't like that person, well it doesn't matter, come there and give give uncle Joe a hug. Well, no, if your kid is saying they feel unsafe, okay, still be respectful, right, You've got to be respectful. But if you feel unsafe, there's something inside of you, in your nonverbal systems that is telling you, hey, this is not really a great situation for me.
Respect that, Honor that because you don't know. You don't know what it is, and it could be something life or death later on. So definitely respect that. Yeah, and you know, there's also being able to recognize, and I'm all about the intuitive. You know, I've been a professional psychic since the nineteen seventies, so I'm all about intuitive, interesting the psyche. The other thing we also always want to be aware of is sometimes
somebody will look like somebody and they trigger us because of that. And on one hand it may be ding ding ding. Be aware that this person has something like the other person, and that in that you will be more intellectually sharp, You will pay more attention, you will look for the things and because funny thing that will happen is why'd you figure out what you need to know about the person? You look at him and go, they don't look like that person at all. Hmm. Have you ever had that happen?
Yeah, I've had that happen, and I had that happened to me. I had a woman that my wife was friends with, and I had not met her before and I came in. I came in the house and she got like visibly upset angry, and I was like, well, what's going on. I had no clue what's happening, and ended up after this happened a few times like where she would physically start shaking and if I was around, I looked like an ex boyfriend that she had that used to hit her.
So I just looked enough like him that when she saw me, she just she had a visceral reaction. She was fine with me, she knew I wasn't that person. It's not like she wanted to hurt me. It's just that my face, my stature reminded her of him, and she just could not She couldn't handle being near me or around me because it brought out this fear bons that she had from this previous experience with a guy that looked
just like me. See, so in my world, if she was my client, I would be like, so this has showed up as a safe version of an unhealed trauma that we need to work at healing. Yeah, so you can differentiate between the abuser and people that just look like them, But as long as people that look like them trigger you you haven't healed the wood. Yeah, one hundred percent. She was definitely unhealed. Yeah, And you know, but that moves us back and forth of you know,
we have a lot of information that comes from our conscious. We have a lot of information that comes from our subconscious. We have a lot of information that comes from our unconscious. And it's being able to sort the information into the right baskets before you take action. Yeah, so tell us, Well, in our about three and a half minutes left, tell us more about this book. We know we can find it anywhere. I mean, well, we've been on the radio show. I just walked down to the corner
and boom, it was just sitting there under a street way there. I was amazed. I mean he said you could find it anywhere, and it was anywhere. It's amazing. Like, if you open up your drawer right now, there's one there. I guarantee you. I just ordered my copy on Amazon's so you're welcome. There's also there's also if you go to human hackingbook dot com. Once you get the book, I put a website up all about the book, and I put worksheets things help people go through.
I had this amazing experience with the book because when I when I when I decided to write it, it was because I had all these wonderful experiences in using these skills in a very positive way to to like change my life and change other people's lives. And I started a nonprofit six years ago that that helps law enforcement track people who traffic children and create child abuse material, and I got to use these skills in doing that. And I had all these
positive, wonderful experiences in my life. And I had this group of parents that reached out to me and told me that they bought my book for work, but then they started using it in their family and they fixed this big problem they have with their daughter and she was angry, and they use all the communication skills. And I'm like, I didn't intend that. It wasn't the reason I wrote it, but I'm amazed that that's how it was used.
So I put all these worksheets up on how to use these skills in this book for better communications, maybe getting that raise you want, or talking to your kids about difficult topics, or talking to your house and you're not getting along. So there's all these different exercises and things that you can do for each chapter. So if you go to humanpackingbook dot com you can create
a free account. All that stuff's up there for nothing, and you can you know, once you've got the book, it will make a lot more sense. And some of the charts and graphs that are in the book, I have them in printable form there, so if you like to write on things and print them out and write on it. But it's you know, I created it kind of as a work book and with the ode to Dale Carnegie, you know, the win friends influence people. That book is pivotal.
I mean if you that was written like what in the nineteen thirties something like that, and it's still referenced in use today, that's kind of amazing to Yeah, yeah, that's amazing to me. So I look at these skills as something that are timeless. They never as long as humans are going to be around, we're going to need to know this. So my hope in this book was to help people use these skills that bad guys have been using since the beginning of human history. But so we can use it to
better our lives and make those around us better too. So two questions. And we may not have time for them to both be answered because I know we're going to be hitting the ding ding dings. So the first one is do you have a personal connection to the child traffickings? A personal connection? Yeah. So in one of my jobs I had, it's going back ten years. We were doing an audit for a company and I found a guy
inside a company who was flying to the Philippines. He was recording himself molesting children and then he was trading and selling those recordings on the dark web, and I called the FBI. We set up a thing operation. That guy will be in prison for one hundred and fifty years. And it was the first time in my life that I said I have a skill that can do something that is not just hacking a company like I can actually make a difference here in the world. And it opened my eyes and I said, I
want to do more of that. I want that in my life. I want to feel good about my work every day. So it took me a few years of volunteering at places and learning the ropes, and I started being a ly Foundation six and a half years ago, and uh, and that's what we do now. We we help law enforcement stop the trafficking and children I could tell there was there was something that personally touched you around it. I could tell by the way you talked about it. Chris, thank you
for coming. Thank you for having me Chris. It was nice to meet you guys too. It was a really great interview. Thank you so much. You're welcome. Next week we will be back to planetary influences. Well, Ashley tells us what's in the skies and Robin Purper right here, Doctor Kevin