Gait Analysis & RunDNA: Innovations That Are Changing Physical Therapy | Doug Adams

Yeah. And our mission is 100 happy healthy.

I love that.

Right? We want people to be a 100 years old, but happy and healthy when they get there.

I love that.

Welcome to the doctor JJ Thomas podcast.

Hey, everybody. Welcome to the doctor JJ Thomas podcast. I'm JJ Thomas, and I'm here today with my very good friend and colleague, Doug Adams. Doug, Doug and I have been long long friends, and, so it's really a pleasure to have him here today. And, I'll give you a short intro of Doug from my personal perspective in the sense that the reason we've been friends so long is that, we used to work together a long time ago in insurance based practice.

Thank you for having me. I it's funny you say that because I remember when I first started working in the clinic with you, I just switched over. And you and I play this game of like, we had to have met before. Yeah. Like, there's no way like, we probably didn't. I know. And we were like, we just hit it also. We were, like, no, we've met before. Definitely. I'm sure we've met at some point there. But

I know. Yeah. It was. It was like this we we knew each other because we're so similar in so many ways, I think. And we just had the same appreciation for, really, excellence. Like

Yeah. And I appreciate JJ has been such a big influence on my career and and the pursuit of that excellence and and just, like, surrounding yourself with people of like mind is is so important. And to have colleagues like Jada that I was so fortunate for. We had that little all star crew there that was really fun, and we branched out, but it's been a lot

of fun. But I think that's I was thinking about this today because, actually, right before this, I did a I did a solo podcast on, like, people were asking about, what dry needling course to use. And I was thinking about it, and I'm like, you know, I've taught with so many so many great clinicians, and now we've all kind of branched out to other places. I think that's what happens. Like, you work with great clinicians and you learn from each other and you grow and you build each other up.

Yeah. We have we all have a similar foundation. Mhmm. But then it was like, okay, I'm gonna go in this running pathway. Yeah. And, alright, I'm gonna go in the dry needling pathway. I'm gonna go here. There's so much to learn because at the foundation, it's still we really pride ourselves on getting great results with patients and the quality of care that we're delivering, which is fun.

Totally. And that's actually back to that. So that's one of the one of the main things I wanted to ask you today is, like, can you, for the audience, go through how you ended up? Because Doug has a lot of experience in a lot of areas. Like, Doug is sorta similar. I'm like the dry needling girl now. But, like, I have a lot of experience in a lot of areas, but and Doug's the running guy. Right? And I'm always like and I do refer to you that way. I'm like, my friend, the running gait specialist.

that up? Shoulder, e stim.

Yeah.

Yeah. A couple of publications.

Lot of research. So what am I I'm curious for the for the audience to hear. What led you on the path of focusing so much on the running gait analysis? Do you remember?

The running? Yes. I, like a lot of people's background story in the field, had experiences growing up of running injuries. Mhmm. I was doing cross country in high school and got stress fractures in both shins. Mhmm. Kind of a stupid injury. I jumped off a log. We were we used to go around in a place where the there was, like, a equine, like, a horse trail, and it was really fun. And we were stupid freshmen jumping off of it.

While you were training? Like running? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But so I had these injuries and got to meet a lot of physical therapists then. And I really started enjoying learning about running. And then I remember I started competing in triathlons between my sophomore and junior year of high school. And I really got into it and I picked up a book called Triathletes Training Bible.

Okay.

And that was it for me. Was it good? It was great. Yes. Oh, it's it's still a great resource. I still send people to that

Pathlights training bible.

Pathlights training bible. And I just started reading about it, and I had this senior project in high school that you had to do a publication. And I was I'm a math and science guy. English was not my favorite, but I asked the teacher, can I do this sports science magazine or journal basically? And I worked with John Noonan and a lot of those guys.

And numbers. Because I have to say, one of the things that I really admire about you is that you are so good at looking at research and and and not just looking at research, but, like, dissecting it. Like, I just love the way you Doug doesn't just read research. Like, you read it and you dissect it, and then you and you also pull from many different areas, and you just you really are a student of the research, which I love.

Okay. It's I'm smart enough to understand the research, but dumb enough that I need to make it approachable. So I take it to them. I have to figure out like, well, what is this Okay. Big words.

How do

I take

this and turn

it into practice?

Yeah. Usable. Exactly. I totally Yeah.

I'm very functional

You are.

In everything that I do.

It's huge.

And like research I think is the same way, and why I was really lucky to have, like, Rich Willie and Ivory Davis are both these running researchers that really focused on the function.

Like, what

do we do?

And they were looking for the same answers. Like, what does this tell? Like, because I think it is true that a lot of times sometimes in research, they get caught up in, like, the details of the research, but that doesn't always help the clinicians directly. Exactly.

Yeah.

So I do. I agree with that. And I think you it's it's a tribute to them and your relationship with them, but you definitely took it and and hit the ground running with it. So Yeah. That's really cool. Yeah. Thank you. You just came to me on the fly.

But I you know, about research too, like, one of the things I think that's important to remember is a lot of people get stuck in evidence based practice, and they don't understand that this is the way I put it about research. No research study ever started without an expert coming up with an idea. Yeah. So when you're working with experts, when you're getting mentorship, that's a level of evidence. Totally.

Yeah.

We need to validate this. We need to see if this works.

I'm so glad you said that because one of the things I was thinking about when you were talking about, what first got you interested in running, that whole process of, like, you being a runner in high school and then asking to do this project. All I kept thinking, and I didn't wanna interrupt you, but I kept thinking, like, it's really I think part of what drives you to be so excellent is your curiosity. And to follow-up on what you're just saying, like, a a great research experiment or a great research research design is only gonna come from someone being curious. And from a clinician agree

more.

Yeah. Actively participating in something and being like, well, let me ask why this is doing this or why this isn't doing this.

Exactly.

So

Yeah. And I think that that is the biggest determinant. When I'm interviewing somebody Yeah. I'm checking to see, like, how much are they interviewing me?

Yeah.

Tell you the thing, like, what's their curiosity? You mean

to hire?

To hire.

Yeah. I love that.

Like, when I'm, like, a for one of the clinician in my clinic or for an employee at my company, I really wanna see how curious they are.

Yeah, and I call that hunger.

Yeah.

Like I'm looking for a hungry clinician.

Right. They wanna understand why, and that's gonna be an itch that they just need to scratch.

All the time.

All the time. They need to figure out. They need to understand like why did that help this person and not that person? And if they're asking that, they're gonna keep getting

That's right.

Better. And that curiosity is is a huge part of that too.

It's so cool.

Because it's you, well, curiosity and enough courage to not care if people think you don't know something.

Amen to that. Yes. Or they disagree with you.

Yes.

Like, which I think is important

to

be able to take that.

You know? It's like it's it's along all the same lines of failure is good type thing. I even asked, like, my kids yesterday. I was like, hey, what'd you fail at this week?

I love that.

And they're like, what? And my daughter, the type a She was just like, I I don't like that word fail. And I was like, embrace it. Yeah. Because it's okay. And, like, we can't have big failures. Right? We're not gonna Right. We don't wanna seriously injure a patient.

Right.

But we wanna be able to say, like, oh, wow. I had a patient I was just working with the other day, and I got them great results. They came in for some back pain, started working on them, did some things that made a big difference, and then I was like, oh, let me check this one thing out. And I did it, and it undid all the work that I did.

Oh, man.

Yeah. Right?

What? You learned a lot.

Yeah. I learned a lot. 100%. And then the next time that they came in, it was like, okay, we need to address this and we need to understand. And I had to ask myself, like, why did that? Like, was that because I took away their compensation? And okay, well now what were they compensating for? Yeah. Why was they doing that? So you can't be afraid to be wrong Yeah. With that and be curious about why you're wrong.

Okay. So I have to ask you this now because I didn't I should have said this earlier, but in the introduction, but I was so excited to just introduce who you are as a human. But, for those of you that don't know Doug, he can you talk a little bit about your project? Like, the different components, Doug, because of his curiosity, he has a lot of, sort of different elements of what he does as a clinician and as an educator. And, yeah, let's talk about those a little bit.

Yeah. So maybe, maybe I'll give a little background story

quickly. Yeah.

So, you heard the high school part. Then I went to undergrad at Auburn and continued and really was interested in exercise science stuff. Went to PT school, had this great mentorship, started doing we would have these, gait analysis that people would come in for. Started doing that, started helping with some research too. Mhmm. And we started noticing patterns.

Mhmm.

And that was where we started to say, maybe there's not a perfect way to run, but there's definitely some imperfect ways to run that we know

could Cause Exactly. Cumulative damage. Yes. Yeah.

So we should identify what those are. And so I started teaching with that. I got out of academia after a while, did some publications, worked there, went into more of a private practice setting, and got frustrated pretty quick

Yeah.

Because I thought, like, oh, I love running. Like, I should just work with runners all the time.

Right.

That's not the case as a young professional. Yeah. And it was great experience, and I love that I could get a lot of reps. Yeah. And I think that is valuable. Totally. You can't always just start what you think you're gonna finish in your niche practice. Right. But I got frustrated pretty quick. So I refined some of those things that I saw when I was in academia. I started refining it and then came up with these like 5 categories and right, well that's gait analysis, but what else do I need to

look at?

Yeah. So then started teaching these courses. I was in charge of onboarding for a pretty big company, doing a lot there. And we were supposed to teach, like, 30 people, and we wound up teaching 200 people in a year.

Yeah.

And I went off these on these tangents about running, like 4 hour tangents.

Love it.

It was great. How did

he stop you?

Yep. So then eventually this is now around like 2011, 2012. Yeah. Started teaching just running courses.

Love it.

And that was really helpful, and got some feedback and it was a nice kinda side hustle doing some teaching with that.

And then And feeling that like Yes. You feel clearly feeling that passion. Right?

Yes.

That love for what you do.

And then I I continued to be frustrated by not being able to see the patient population that I wanted. Yeah.

And Because of the environment you were in at the time.

Yes.

Yeah. Yeah.

And even in the environment I

don't mean, like, that the people weren't supportive. I just mean the the busyness of it was probably yeah.

Yeah. There's a lot of people coming in. Yeah. So we have to handle everyone coming in the door. Yeah. And I, you know, I felt like, why aren't these runners seeking me out a little bit more? Yeah. Thinking I'm not a lot of

I'm really good at this, you you guys. No. No. No. I'm kidding.

Yeah. But I I started wondering why. And then so that's when I was like, oh, if I could just do gait analysis at a higher level Yeah. Like I had when I was at University Delaware, that would be awesome.

And then you could show them.

Yes. Yeah. So I I kinda like knew what I was, but I wanted to show them. So then that's when in 2016 16 started working on developing a 3 d motion analysis system Yeah. Because there wasn't anything out there that I needed. I I didn't have $250,000 for a gait lab Right. At the time, but I wanted one.

I actually remember these discussions with you.

You and I talked to her

about that. In the clinic, I remember in the in the 4 minutes that we had between patients, I remember you brainstorming about this and being like, I wish there was a way Yeah. That I could have the system. I, like, literally remember watching your wheels turn that I could have the same system we had at the gait lab, but in a way that's mobile and accessible for physical therapists

Absolutely.

So that it's actually doable. Because I can't, number 1, spend 100 of 1,000 of dollars on their setup.

Yeah.

But I still wanna be able to do this. And and then I remember, like, a follow-up follow-up conversation where you're like, I think I'm gonna create my own. And I'm like, you're crazy. What do you mean you're gonna create your own?

Yeah. It was just like, alright. Well, let's do it. Yeah. Because it needed it, and I knew that the patients would benefit from it. And it's like, hey, if nothing else, then I have it for me. And if other people like it, great.

Yeah.

But it was it was kinda different from a lot of technology. We developed a systematic approach to working with runners and evaluating runners Yeah. And then built technology to support it.

So cool. That is the way it should be.

It should be. Yeah. Right? Like, how do we make this easier more affordable?

To your point earlier, a lot of technology doesn't always it comes back to the research. Like, it has to start with a curious mind. And if the technology is being invented by somebody that doesn't have the questions

Yes.

Like, the right questions, then they're not gonna produce this the right technology.

An engineer sitting in a room by themselves is gonna be like, this is a great camera.

Right. And an engineer sitting in the room with, like, a like, a like, a generalist physical therapist is also not gonna have the right question. Yeah.

Yeah. So, you know, fast forward, we kinda had it. It was working. A couple other people wanted to use it type thing, but then 20 19 military kinda got a hold of it. And they gave us some funding and we developed some algorithms to make it even easier and we expanded from 5 categories to 12 categories, and we were able to really show great results there.

for that.

So that was really

cool to see. The equipment, meaning the 3 d Helix system.

The 3 d system.

Yeah. So Doug and I are talking about this. Can I talk about that? Yeah.

Sure. Yeah.

So it's the 3 d Helix system. It's, we have it in our office. Eric is certified. We're all certified in running gait analysis. Eric's done all the courses and has the has the system.

It is. And, you know, that's, like, a big part of it. And I love that aspect, and it's kinda like my baby. Yeah. So I love that. But I think even something I'm really happy with, it's something we share, is like the education aspect of it too. Yeah. We've had over 10,000 people take our courses now Yeah. Which has been awesome. And we get emails from people all the time like, hey, I took your course and that Monday after I took it I was immediately using it and doing it in the clinic.

I love that.

Okay. We want people to be a 100 years old, but happy and healthy when they get there.

I love that.

And the way that we contribute to that is

It's so cute. When you first said to me 100 happy healthy Yeah. Earlier before the cameras were on, I actually thought you were thinking a 100%.

No.

Not a 100, but I love that too.

100 years old.

100 years old. I love it.

I'm gonna go for a run on my 100th birthday.

I love it.

That's my goal.

I wanna go with you.

Let's go. Here we go. Let's go for a run. Yeah. Are

we gonna be a 100 in the same year? I don't think so.

Close.

Shit. I'm gonna be a 110 when you're or something like that.

No. No. No. Yeah. No.

Oh, well. I better

On your 100th birthday, I'll go for 1 with you. On my 100th birthday, you come for 1 with me.

That sounds good.

That's good. That'll be great. So, but it's like, you know, our the way that we contribute to 100 Happy Healthy

Yeah.

Is that we analyze movement to promote healthy lifestyles. Mhmm. Because they're so essential movements. The reason we started with running is because I think running would be this magic pill that if you took all the benefits of running and it would cure cardiovascular disease and depression and diabetes. You know, it would be great, but the FDA would never prove it because they're such at a risk of injury.

Sure. So So if you can minimize the risk of injury Exactly. Then you're gonna allow people. I love it. Plus, it is. Running makes people happy.

It does.

It just does.

Runner's high.

You can't yeah. You can't go to a running event and not see a lot of happy now they might be tired. Yeah. They might be a little beat up, but they're all happy because they're doing something good for themselves.

Oh, yeah. Start line of any race, people are like, oh, we made it. Like, there's Yeah. How was your training? Duh. What are you using? What? Oh, you like those shoes? They're just happy.

Happy? Exactly.

I know.

I love it. So that's awesome. So Doug mentioned the name of his running his continuing education company is RunDNA.

Yeah.

And, and as he said, the the programs are amazing. Actually, what I wanted to tell you, even one of my patients, saw Doug recently for a gait analysis. And, even the patients come out better educated from these gait analysis. Like, I love the way you in your certification programs, the way you have the descriptors, the the Yeah. The categories as you put them of deficits.

Yeah.

And you would say that based on his movement Yeah. Because I analyze differently.

And it matched up.

And it totally matched up.

Yeah.

And, and so it's really fun to see that not only that correlation between, like, 2 different methods of movement analysis

Yeah.

But also just reemphasizing. It's it also gives him another avenue of how to improve his movement. Exactly. Like, I can help him with, you know, the supportive exercises and supplemental exercise and different like, I love how he he was like, Doug said check my mid foot, and I'm like, on it. You know? Like, we can collaborate that way, but also having a whole another way to support him in his own strategies for

It's synergistic. Right? It's not competing. It's it's let's work together of it because that was a big thing. I'm a gait guy. I love gait. Yeah. But our courses, we really made sure we talk about this unique runner injury profile. And we talk about all the factors that contribute to running injuries. It's not just the gait. The gait is a really important part of it, and we focus on it because a lot of people don't look at gait. Yeah. They don't feel confident looking at gait.

That's it.

And that's what we've tried to make that aspect simpler. Yeah. But there's also the elements of we need to look at movement. Yeah. We need to look at these things and they're synergistic. And we need to be because improving mobility and strength doesn't change form.

Right.

And improving form doesn't change mobility and strength.

100%.

So we have to be doing both Yeah. Which is so important, and it's why it's, like, so I I love when we get to collaborate on patients.

Yeah.

It's fun. It's a lot of fun.

It is fun. That's cool. So, well, we were talking earlier about maybe some pursues some some some new pursuits of yours in in the area of using gait analysis to help a 100 happy, healthy people.

Yeah. With walking. Yeah. Yeah. We're going I I'm totally nerdy about I'm a running nerd Yeah. By profession, but I I'm just shaming that I think I should just be a gate nerd because it's

You could just be a nerd.

Just nerd. I'm just yeah. A nerd is is very accurate.

Don't limit yourself.

Nerd about everything here. That's a pretty fair accurate description. But I I'm loving the walking stuff here too. We're releasing a really cool new protocol. We we do analyze walking already.

Yeah.

But the way that we have a guidance. Right? What we do, we kinda use our courses, our technology. We say we have a guide mentality. So we're like a fishing guide. Smart. So we take you like the fishing guide is the one that's tying the lures, doing that thing, and kinda like, hey, catch it over there. We're catching the fish. Right? And we wanna be we wanna make it easy for you to get great results.

But you're I know you and I were talking about this before too. How, like, really what you're doing with your courses, which is which is priceless to therapists, really, is it's almost like an apprenticeship program.

Yeah.

Like, to me, you're sharing your all of your nerdiness that you've accumulated over the years from even from that first high school experience where you started delving into the research then, all of those years of experience and those clinical patterns that you've seen, you're now just openly sharing with people.

Oh, it's a wide open book. Yeah. Right? Like, if anyone wants to treat, like, you know, like, we've seen and now a lot of other people are doing successfully Yeah. Too, it's like, here it is.

I know. It's cool.

Open book with that stuff.

I know you are. It's cool. And it's that's one of the reasons we've also always jibed is that, like, you're

you're in it for the right reasons. You just want people to get better.

Yeah. And and I think you and I both came to this realization that, like, we can help more patients by helping more therapists do better.

Yeah.

Right?

Well, I think we had this conversation one time in the clinic too. It's so funny because you were there for all these, like, formative years while all this stuff was coming together here.

Yeah.

That I said, alright. I think we did the math one time. Yeah. Right. How many patients I'm helping, like, 400 different patients a year, and if I have a 40 year career, I'm gonna help 1600 patients.

Right.

Like, oh, that's really good. Yeah. Help 1600 people. And then it's like, okay. Well, now if I teach

Right.

10,000 clinicians. Right. Each of them. Each of them is treating 1600 people. And maybe it's not that I'm the entire influence of why they're getting results. No. But if it helps a majority of their patients, like that's a lot more people. And that's the career goal Yeah. That we do. And it's it's the same, like it's funny. So our we just did our quarterly meeting for RunDNA. And our metric that we look at is how many gait analysis were done.

Cool.

And so when one of our users does a 3 d gait analysis that we can track and say like, oh, they send it to the app, the web based app there. So a gait analysis was done. That was cool.

And awesome.

The cool thing was that Q1 of 2023 was a certain amount. And then in Q1 of 2024, it was almost 3 x.

Let's go.

And I was like, this is great. Like, so many more people are getting gait analysis. And that's all what we're about. Right? Because we don't make a dime when they do a gait analysis. But that's our most important metric because we wanna make sure people have everything that they need to do gait analysis.

That's awesome.

Which is fun.

And I know I like, going back to the walking thing, when you first started telling me, that you were gonna start looking into more of the walk like, education on walking analysis. I was like, this is huge because I have so many patients that I know things will be revealed in their walking analysis that, you know, I may not pick up I may not pick up with my eyes.

We were talking about my example. Yeah.

I didn't know if you wanted to share it.

Yeah. I was happy to share it because so, if I'm not the most active on social media, but some people that follow me on social media, I shared a bit of an injury journey that I had recently where I partially tore my patellar tendon.

Right.

And I had to take some time off, and that that's a whole another story. But anyway, now I'm back running

Yeah.

And I perceive that I'm doing well. Yeah. And we I was teaching one of the clinicians in my clinic.

Wait. I should just say, he perceives he's doing well, and he's pretty critical eye. Like, even, like, really. I mean, even some people can't analyze themselves well, but I've known Doug a long time, and I know you're pretty good at, like, picking up. Yeah. Like, he'll be like, oh, I'm a little bit off on my heel strike or whatever. Like, I've definitely heard you say those things. So that's pretty cool that you didn't pick up anything on your initial screen.

I feel like my running is going well. And I've done running gait, and this is interesting with the walking and running part too because they're different movement patterns. Yeah. Right? So my running I've checked as I've gone along and it's been good.

And it's been good. You felt good. Yes. And when you do the 3 d BLX, it's still pretty good.

Yes. Okay. Still a little right left difference, but like the important metrics are there. Yeah. So I was teaching the clinician how to use the walking protocol, and I noticed a difference in my hip position on my involved side versus my uninvolved side. And then I pulled up a graph of the hip and the knee together. And what I noticed is I was avoiding straightening my knee out fully on the right side.

On the right.

And I was comp at initial contact.

Okay.

So So at initial contact, I had an even step length Uh-huh. Which was good. And all those metrics if I just looked at it that way, I'd be like, oh, you're nice and even. Good job. But then I looked a little deeper and I was like, oh, like why is my hip more on that side? And to keep my step length symmetrical, what I'm doing is I'm increasing my hip flexion because I don't wanna go into as much knee extension.

Interesting.

So I've I was like, oh, wow. I guess I really am. And then I just kinda went and I tried it and I extended my knee fully. And I was like, oh, I have a little bit of pain there.

Interesting.

So Yeah. The body is great at compensating. Yeah. And but it doesn't do a good job of sending an email to you

to tell you it's compensating. Say that. It doesn't. It's like I got this. I'm just gonna handle this.

Yeah. But then that manifests into deficit somewhere else.

And that's important. Right?

Because when we were being chased by lions and we needed to run away, we need to

compensate quickly. Yeah. With you.

We don't need to send a memo.

That's right.

But it's now knowing when it's not necessary to compensate, it doesn't change back. It's short sided. It's like, hey, this works.

Yeah. It's true. So all

of a sudden if I start getting I've had a little back pain recently and we've done a lot of walking recently. Yeah. And a little right sided low back pain. Yeah. It's like, well, I'm going into more hip flexion. I'm using a hip flexion. You're getting

into more pelvic torsion. Right. Yeah, exactly.

So it's interesting just how that informs it. I mean, I I view this and I'm biased. I'll I'll admit it there. Right? We're all biased. We're all biased. But I admit, I I think having an ability to measure gait is like having a goniometer in a clinic.

Yeah. It is. Well, it's even better than that because it's a real light. It's a real time.

It's a real time.

That's what I was telling I was telling Doug earlier that I had a patient today that I, he's gonna do his gait analysis with Eric, but I Yeah. I was I had I squeezed him in a session. It was a 45 minute eval. He's running Broad Street. So he's yeah. But he's but he told me 3 times before I even started as eval, like, I'm not a runner. I'm not a runner. You know? He's a squash player. He's very active, but, like, he's, like, I'm not a runner.

Right. Quicker and easier like that.

Quicker and easier and more effective. Yeah. So, so I was I actually told him, remember how this is another cool story that I should share with you. After my ACL reconstruction, Doug helped me with my rehab, and we did some gait analysis when I first started running again. We're gonna do a follow-up so you can see how I progressed. But what was really cool, that was early. That was, like, just after I mean, I was just clear to run.

The earliest that

you run. Maybe 3 months out. And, and, I had multiple pairs of shoes in my car because I'm because? Yeah. Because I'm not deaf. Because but, and when we used different shoes for the gait analysis, it changed dramatically.

Remember that? It changed a good bit.

One pair out. So much that I threw the one pair out.

Yeah.

Like, I was like, oh my god. This is so bad. I'm never I don't even wanna get confused. I threw them out.

We have, running stores using our technology now that are helping people with it there because shoes aren't cheap now.

I know.

So if you're gonna spend a $150 on a pair of shoes, make sure it's the right pair of shoes.

And it probably saves them because people are trying to bring back because they're expensive. Yeah. People are buying them, coming to us. We're saying that's not the right shoe for you. Yeah. And they're trying to take them back. It's just a hassle.

Well, they sit there. They throw them out.

Yeah.

Then they wasted a $150.

So this guy, same thing. I was like, look. I was like, bring all of your shoes that you that you think you should wear because I want Eric to look at them all all for you.

And

then he can help you choose what shoes to wear. Yeah. So that's cool.

Which is fun. It's I mean, for me, like, not that's not everyone's cup of tea, but it's really fun if you're interested in that stuff, getting the data. And we're talking about developing expertise and curiosity. Right? The only way that you develop the expertise you don't know how you did on that. You don't know how you did on that. You don't know if if you're wanting help, though.

You can't get recourse or not. No. Smart.

So you have to get, like, if you wanna be really good at something, you need to have the tools and technology and whatever is necessary. Maybe, like, there are things that you can measure. Like, I want people doing gait analysis. I don't like Yeah. I know not every clinic's gonna have a 3 d, even though I think it's like a goniometer.

I know. I keep talking about it because I love it, and I like toys. And I'm like, honestly, I like efficient use of time, and I think that's why I'm such a proponent.

Yeah. It's 3 minutes

to get a game analysis. You your courses do give a ton of information that make it very, manageable for a therapist to analyze gait without the system.

Right. We tell you, hey. With 2 d, here's what to do. Yeah. I want people doing gait. Right? I can't measure everyone that's taking our courses

Right.

How many gait analysis are being done. We just know how many 3 d are done. Cool. But I'm like Wow.

I didn't even think of that when you said that number. That's awesome.

But now think of all the people that just took the courses. Those 10,000 people, like if they're doing gait analysis, we we have no way to track, but we're making gait analysis prime as part of what rehab is for runners.

That's really cool.

Yeah. That's, I mean, that's our goal

with it. And in your courses, because it's been a while since I took them, honestly. But are you I remember you have, like, your courses also come with sort of the protocol, right? Yes. Yeah.

Yeah. So we make it so that we want you to apply it right away. Yeah. And then now we've even started like there is an optional app that you can use for it there. And we've made that even cheaper for education people because we want them to incorporate it. Yeah. I think it's, you know, on

Like through the RunDNA app.

Through the RunDNA app.

That's awesome.

Because it just makes it easier where you have these programs, and we have our programs, but you can make your own programs too. But if we literally make it so that the patient gets an email every day saying

It's cool.

Here's your program. Here's a video.

I hate the app. It's awesome. Honestly, the app is awesome because it it does more it also it gives you a way to get real time feedback from the page. It's just like you said

Yeah.

If you if you're not getting the knowledge, if you're not seeing how you did, you can't recourse.

Right.

And so in through the app

Are they having pain? Are they not?

App gives you real time information on on their response to treatment as well even when you're not with them, which is so cool. Yeah. Yeah. And it has the all the exercises.

Everything.

Like, all the so each like, correct me if I'm

Yeah.

Describing this incorrectly, but but each exercise, so I'm not sorry. Each, like, deficit criteria

Yeah.

What do you call it?

Gate category?

Gate category.

Yes.

Yeah. Each gate category has basically a series of an exercise program that's that helps with it. Right? Right.

Yeah. So when we say, hey, somebody's overstride or knee drive, one of the 12 categories, there's a, okay, here's how to warm up, here's drills. Like, we literally break it down of, if you see this on the treadmill, take them off, do these 2 drills, give them this cue, get them back on the treadmill, then they do this gait retraining program for the next 4 weeks. Yeah. And it's you just hit a button for that.

You literally just, like, shrink wrapped

Yeah.

All of your years of experience and made it very manageable for therapists to apply.

Because I remember it be even when I opened my practice or mega project that we were just spending a lot of time after gait analysis Yeah. Putting these together. And I was like, I know we're charging a good bit for these, but I don't have time to sit here for 45 minutes and make up a program.

That's brilliant. I love that you do that.

It makes a huge difference because when the and it's also a better patient experience. Because when they leave, they know everything that it's supposed to do. Right. They don't have to wait a couple days for us to send it. Yeah. It's just like they're done.

They're staying in like, they're also their compliance has to go way up because they're like, I know the other patient of mine that moved to New York and Yeah. She needed you. And Yeah. And and you managed her virtually.

Yes.

And, and that that was awesome.

She did great. Yeah.

She did great. And she I know that she was nervous about, like, her her ability to do that virtually, but the app kept her kept her in line.

She rocked it.

She's awesome. Yeah. She is. Yeah. She did

a great job.

Yeah. That's cool. What about there was something else we were talking about before the you were talking about clinical expertise.

Oh, test for test.

Do you wanna go there? Yeah. We can go there.

Let's go. So I was just thinking, to give JJ the kudos that she deserves. Like JJ is just at the top of the field, does a great job. She is just like such an expert on this and you really, like I just feel lucky to witness some of that development where where you were there. It wasn't legal to needle in Delaware or it wasn't illegal but it wasn't legal or

clearly defined in the practice time.

And J. J. Like advocated for that. But also was just like being an advocate, but developing clinical expertise and doing those things. And I think about that and I was kinda thinking, wow.

Right.

But I do think that there's a missing step that you've done and that I've tried to do as well. And I think it's really important, and we talked about this even when we talked about research, is you have to write it down actually. Yeah. Like you actually have and there's different ways to do that. So what I mean by you have to write it down is there this is more on the business side, but I, you know, have some people that work with me in my company, and we started talking about things, and we we started realizing that you never really fully understand something until you write it down.

Right.

There are so many influences and factors that go into it. And if you wanna develop true expertise, you need to take those factors and see which are the most important. And can you simplify it and break it down and break it down and break it down even more to find a way that you can simply write it down. And this is something that I wish somebody had encouraged me to do earlier on in my career. That when I'm working with patients, understanding what is my methodology and like why did that work Yeah.

I love that.

And say like, hey, when I see this Like it it could be as simple as it. Here's here's a practical example. Okay? Yeah. You treat somebody with low back pain and you find that when they have pain that points at the PSIS, you find that most of the time they're gonna have hip flexor issues that if you don't address the hip flexor, the pain will never truly go away.

Right.

Because of what?

Why? Exactly.

And the way that you and I have kind of done this is starting to do teaching.

Yeah. I was just thinking that.

So that's the first step of of writing down. Teaching somebody else's material even.

Yeah.

Like, just get used to teaching and understanding things written down and conveying it to somebody else.

It's funny because when I, mentored some, colleagues in the past before I even opened primal

Yeah.

I was teaching dry needling, and I had some colleagues who were interested in they had just started dry needling. And they were like, I don't know. I just don't feel very confident. And I was like, you wanna get confident, you teach it. Yeah.

And it doesn't like, you can start teaching your patients. Yeah. You can start teaching your colleagues. Yes. You don't have to go teach for a big company or start your own courses or things.

Or you could even just I like how you're saying write it down. Like, you could even just make it your own resource.

Yeah. If you had a manual for you. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Let's say, hopefully this doesn't happen to you, somebody has a traumatic brain injury. Right.

And they're

like, I need to start over.

Right.

Like, well, let me read this and start over.

Right.

And if you had that manual, I think people's level of expertise would significantly improve.

I think that's brilliant. Yeah. You're right. Write it down. Put it in a Yeah. Put it just put it in a package.

I always wish I had done this coming out of school, and maybe this is a new app idea, a new business idea for somebody that wants to go out there and develop it. But like, you know, my clinical journal or something. But there's even exercises Smart. That I used to use all the time. Yeah. And then I completely forget about them.

Yes.

And I don't use them for a day, a week, a month, a year, a decade.

And all of a sudden.

And then I come back just like, why am I not doing this exercise Yeah. Anymore? Like, I should totally I was like rolling. Right? The neurodiversity.

I love rolling.

I love rolling. And I there was like a period of 2 or 3 years that I didn't have anybody roll. But there was before that, I had everybody roll.

Yep.

And I would love to just be able to go back and flip through that manual

You're right.

And just say, like, oh, why was it or why did I think that? Yeah. Oh, okay. Well, now I need to update that one because that is like, I need a version 2024.

It's true. Yeah. It's funny because my rolling progression now is, like, Turkish get up Yeah. Regressions. Yeah.

When I did the foundations, course, I was like, this is great. Yeah. Like, we we did a whole lab on those Turkish get ups. Yeah. And then I remember you and I practicing Turkish get ups.

We were like, which leg goes up?

Yeah. We were in the clinic and we were like on that mat Yeah. By where we did the notes, and we would do the exercises. Yeah. It was, like

It's funny. Back to your, like, I think the the writing things down, that taking it to another level of expertise.

Yeah.

So just to summarize because I think we we have just to unpack a lot of what you just said just there is, if a clinician and we do have a lot of younger clinicians on the podcast. I'm really glad we're talking about this Yeah. Or listening to the podcast. If a clinician really wants to be great Mhmm. Test, retest is critical.

Absolutely.

But take it a step further and write it down in some way shape or form whether that turns into you teaching. You know, maybe you just have rounds with your other colleagues. Like, maybe you have lunch hours with your colleagues in the clinic, and you guys discuss. We do this after our meetings, still because you do. Once you share and even audit like, audibly share what you see, the patterns start to become ingrained.

Mhmm.

The other thing that you just said that I feel like I feel compelled to share is when I was in PT school, I don't know if I ever told you this, but I I would get lost in the in the in, like, the words a lot. So the way I studied was literally to write down I I outlined every chapter.

Really?

And then I would outline my outline, and then I would outline my outline, and then I would outline my outline.

Pare it down.

So it was like and then all of a sudden, it was like, shrink wrapping just like your Yeah. RunDNA courses. Yeah. But, like, all of a sudden, this very complex thing made sense on a fundamental level.

Right. Sunrise it in 3 points.

Yeah. Yeah. So, for those of you that are still in school Yeah. It's a really great way to study too.

And get started. Make it a habit Yeah. Type thing. And because it's even easier now. Right? You can just start a note on your phone. Yeah. And whatever, like, whatever medium makes you most excited to do it that way.

Yeah. And most, like, regular.

Yes.

What's consistent? Consistent. Thank you.

Yeah. Yeah. Because that's, I mean, that's a huge part of it too. I think a lot of times people feel like they have to do things certain ways because other people do. Right. I've learned over the years. I've had so many different ways of doing things and systems. Yeah. And I the ones that work the best are the ones that I'm most excited about.

That's right.

I always I would love to be somebody that carries a notebook around and like take notes and things like that. No. I carry a phone and keys. I wanna get like as minimal stuff in my pocket Right. As possible. Yeah. And so for me, I just keep a bunch of notes.

I do too. Yeah. On my phone. Yeah. I just use my phone, and I have a couple pinned at the top. Damn. And then I have, like, a 1,000 below that. But, yeah. Yeah.

And I go back and review them Yes. Every once in a while and be, like, oh, alright. I should do something about this note, or let's delete that one. That one wasn't so good.

Yes. You're right. I know. It's awesome.

It's like you have to have a way to capture it pretty quickly in the moment too. It's it doesn't have to be sophisticated, but I I think we should all strive for expertise. I think I I don't I I would be curious. Please leave me a comment in the show notes. But I'd be curious if anyone, like, doesn't wanna be an expert on

what they do. I feel like the people listening

to this podcast do. I would a

100% agree. But I a 100%, unfortunately feel like not everyone is there. Yeah. But I and that's why I I also think part of the limitation with those that are not there are that maybe they have they feel it's overwhelming to to learn. Like Yeah.

Yeah.

And then you leave the weekend, like, oh god. I don't know what to do with this.

Yes.

But, like, your courses are something that they get a lot of content and a lot of understanding and foundational knowledge, but then you also have this support that trickles afterward that they can implement it Yeah. Which is huge. So my advice to the people that aren't listening, that don't aren't pursuing being the experts right now is to find courses that are are more manageable and give them support afterwards. So

And same with foundations course. I mean, we my whole clinic went to that, and then it was, like, everyone was just having fun after it immediately applying it there. And that's the type of education that you should really look for because that that does make a a big difference. Yeah. And so on the way up, on the same kind of point, hopefully we're not beating it to death here, but I was listening to this book and it was talking it gave an example of Warren Buffett and about wealth generation.

Yeah.

Right? Like, you write 1 or 2 of these things down.

Right.

If you write down 1 a month, 1 a quarter, like, well, alright. You developed that. Well, now you can build the next one, and then you've got this other one Yeah. That you can go forward with.

No. I'm glad you said that because, actually, as physical therapists, I think what we try to promote in patients Mhmm. Is what my husband, the finance guy, calls aggregation of marginal gains.

Yeah.

Right? Like, we want patients to just do a little bit of the right things. Right? Yeah. Yeah. You know, fan finance guys are fancy. But but that's what we're trying to gain in physical in patients Yeah. As physical therapists is, like, do a like, we're, like, look. Do this stretch consistently

Yeah.

For 90 seconds a day. You know? Not nothing big, and it'll pay out. And it's the same thing with learning. So, yeah. That's good.

And same thing with running. It's anything. Right? Yeah. I mean I just came off like this winter. I did I I gave myself like an off season Yeah. Where I was just like, I'm just gonna run slow Yeah. For the entire winter. I'm gonna run on the treadmill. I'm not gonna run outside. I'm gonna make it easy. Amazing. And now I'm like kind of, I'm gearing up for this challenge I'm doing.

Okay.

And it's amazing how having that consistency and that base and that foundation

Yeah.

Is just making it so much easier. And that's the same thing with whatever you're doing.

Everything.

Yeah.

I know. And so like you're saying back to that, we are beating a dead horse, but I think it's not a dead horse. It would it would make the horse alive if you, yeah. Just write down one thing a month. I love that. Great. One other thought with that, my 16 year old just started reading the book. Ian just started reading the book, Atomic Habits. Oh. That was so cute. Love Atomic Habits. Yeah. And I haven't read it. I've never

read it after. Newsletter from him? No. Oh, you have to get the 321. Okay. He it's like, it's almost I don't know. Growing up, like, not super religious now, but like growing up I had this, we went to this church at University of Delaware and it felt like the priest would just like follow you around for a week and tell you what you needed to hear.

Oh my gosh.

He was great.

It was a good thing?

He was just a phenomenal. You're like, wow. How did you know I needed to hear that right now?

Right. That's so funny.

But the James Clear, his newsletter is just amazing because he does like, I forget the it's like 3 things to think about, 2 quotes, and one question.

Oh, I love that.

And it's every Thursday, and it comes out.

That's great.

And it's great.

Okay.

And it's very it's there's always one of those things is always, like, timely information. If he's, like, he's kinda, like, following me around.

How did he know?

How did he know that?

In my iPhone too.

Yes. But Sorry.

The No. I love that because I'm gonna sign up for it.

Yeah.

And that's my point was, like, there was I was so proud. I was listening to him, and I'm, like, he's he's telling me first thing this morning. He's like, mom, I was reading last night. He's like, the the book's great. It's like, you know, if you get 1% better every day, you know, 1% better every week, whatever it is, and you'll be so much better later and

And it's all about process. Right? Yeah. So because that that book was great for me, but it also shook me a little bit. Yeah. I have this habit where, like, January 1st is one of my favorite days of the year.

Okay.

I sit down for 8 hours and write goals.

I love that.

I just spend the whole day, and I, like, deep dive into goals.

I'm sure you do.

I do, like, a pre mortem. I say, like, why am I gonna fail at this goal? I think about strategies and obstacles, and I write up the whole thing. But the atomic habits is kind of like, don't write goals.

Oh, really?

It's not don't write goals. Like, you can still have goals to make sure that you're going that way. Mhmm. But it says not as important as a goal

is of how

you get there.

That is I could totally see that.

Yeah. Yeah. Because if you miss the goal but you're still better, fine.

Yeah. Great.

Right? You're moving in the right direction. Yeah. And it's the same thing. If you're right the process of writing things down in clinic

Is gonna accumulate.

Is gonna accumulate and you'll get better over time. So that's that's all my must read recommended list. I'm surprised you you do a lot of stuff. I'm surprised you haven't read that book.

I haven't, But I will. I love it sounds great.

Yeah. Yeah. That's a great one for you.

Doug, I think we're out of time.

Yeah. But,

we could Doug and I could talk for literally hours, so we'll probably have you back on. I know. So if you wanna know more about Doug's courses, which I would strongly suggest, go to is it rundna.com? Yes. Yeah. Follow them on Instagram as well, run DNA.

Run DNA system.

Run DNA system. That's right. Well, I post you guys all the time, so you could just keep following me on Instagram and check out when I post them. And, yeah, if you have any more questions on Doug's team and amazing the work they do, feel free to reach out to me, reach out to him, as well, and look forward to catching you soon.

Thanks so much for having me.

Thanks, Doug.