Is Islam a Death Cult or a Religion of Peace? Imam Adam Kelwick Answers the Controversy

What happened in Southport just ripped people apart inside. Even if the guy was a Muslim. And you've got a picture of him with a black flag and holding the Quran. And? There's been a sequence of atrocities.

barbaric slaughtering of innocent people in the name of Islam, shouting Allah Akbar as they're doing it. For the record, what does Allah Akbar actually mean? God is the greatest. It's a very bizarre thing to be shouting as you're maiming and torturing. You never hear someone saying, Christ is king. as they're trying to behead somebody. So if Islam is a religion of peace, how do we explain the Charlie Hebdo massacre and the Salman Rushdie attempted assassination? Easy. Go for it.

Do you denounce ISIS? Do you denounce Al-Qaeda? Do you denounce Hamas? Islamic radicalisation. Let's take Hanjum Chowdhury as an example. Perfect. What do you think about that piece of shit? Is there a connection between Islam and grooming gangs? What does Islam actually teach? Describe the Prophet Muhammad to me. What is the reward scheme in heaven within Islam? Is it having sex with 72 virgins? Breaking 72 young girls in? What's fun about that? Any prostitutes and cocaine?

Do you think you could be a victim of Islam? Could I convert you to atheism, take you down the pub and get you on the piss? Oh, this is on a podcast, doesn't it? I want to say a quick thank you to our sponsors Gold Seal. I use their products every single day and now I finally get to work with them. I use their products for anti-inflammatory, reduced anxiety, better sleep and mental clarity.

I'm going to put a link to their website in the description along with the 10% discount code for you to take advantage of. Go and have a look at their website, see if there's anything in there for you. I hope you enjoy this week's episode and good health. Adam.

Good to see you Liam. Thank you for coming on. This has been in the pipeline for quite some time and I'd imagine people are flabbergasted to see you and I. sat opposite each other but as an atheist non-religious man i like to hear everyone's story everyone's perspective everyone's side of the coin and as an imam from liverpool is it the uk's oldest mosque

It is the Abdullah Qulia Mosque. It was founded in the late 1800s by a convert to Islam and the first Muslim community in this country were a bunch of white Scousers. Up in Liverpool, back in Victorian times. How about that? Well, let's see if you can convert me to Islam. God guides who he wants. It's not down to me. You're good, but you're not that good. Let's go. Tell me a bit about your background. how you found Islam and then how you work your way up the ranks to Imam.

And what is an imam? But go back to your background first. How you found Islam? Yeah, so I'll try and keep this short because I could go on forever. So I was born and raised in South Yorkshire between Sheffield and between Rotherham. When I was in my late teens, I was introduced to Islam. How that happened, again, another long story, but I was introduced to Islam. Growing up, I'd always believed in God.

When I was younger, I went to Boys Brigade and I used to play the bugle a little bit, but I wasn't the most religious practising Christian. If I said that, I'm telling you a lie. Ah, so you was born Christian? Yeah, I was brought up in a... Christian household. Yeah, my stepdad was Catholic and my mum, Church of England. But again, it wasn't like I was the most religious person. We didn't used to go to church every week, but I'd always had this belief.

in god deep down in my heart and then like i said when i was in my teens i was a i was a kind of jack the lad kind of character at school and at that point in my life i was probably going to end up going down a difficult path, shall we say. And that's when I was introduced to Islam. I remember when I was first given a copy of the Quran in English and I was reading through it.

And the chapter of Joseph, the story of Joseph and the Dreamcoat, and it kind of stood out for me. So I'm like, oh, right, Muslims believe in Joseph. Even though there were Muslims at my school, I had no idea what they believed. And I just assumed that.

They worshipped gods who looked like monkeys. I thought they were this Eastern religion of Hinduism and Sikhism, which wasn't from the Abrahamic traditions, if that makes sense. And it just kind of... touch me and in all honesty at 17 years old i wasn't looking for religion i was living my life as they say but it got to the point where

the more I read, the more I was reading this book, which I know a lot of people who follow your channel will have lots of questions about and lots of comments on, and that's cool. But the point for me is the more I was reading this book, the more it was kind of shouting out at me.

What happened as a result of that is I kind of found some discipline because my mum couldn't discipline me, my dad couldn't discipline me. And for me now, I've got this way of life. It was a struggle at first, obviously, to give up certain things. whether it's a bacon butty or whether it's a pint of lager or whatever it is. So that was it. And I became Muslim. And what happened is another long story. But I discovered I've got long lost family members in Yemen who I'd never met all my life.

And I went on what was supposed to be a two week trip to visit my long lost family in Yemen. And I ended up living there for almost two years. And I came back with a beard, a dress. and a wife. That's the short version. Well, flip flops. No, the Clarks ones are better. So how do you work your way up to an imam and what is an imam? Right, so...

Technical meaning of an Imam means the one who leads, the one at the front. So basically the one who leads the prayers. Now the usual description of an Imam is somebody who is in the mosque. five times a day leading the five daily prayers That's not me. For the last few years, I've been doing a lot of international travel. I do move quite, quite a lot. I'm always here and there. But from time to time in the Abdullah Quilliam mosque, again, England's first mosque.

I'll give the Friday sermon. So I'll lead the Freze on Friday and I'll deliver the sermon there. So that's an Iman. I am a trained and qualified chaplain, Muslim chaplain. What's a chaplain? Again, a big discussion, but maybe the easiest way to describe it is an imam outside the mosque. So somebody who provides support in a prison or in a hospital or in universities to students. It's basically an imam.

out of the mosque. So I did quite a bit of chaplaincy work and that was really interesting as well. What is also interesting, I get accused, which is strange why people make these random accusations. I get accused of not having Muslims on the channel. I've had an ex-Muslim, a Muslim, and now... I've got an imam. So it's safe to say that any information I want on Islam, I'm in good company today. I'll try my best. We're taught that half of knowledge is saying, I don't know.

If you don't know the answer to something, say, I don't know. And that actually means you're a very knowledgeable person. This cannot be a podcast full of I don't know when the tricky questions come. Now, I've seen you on the BBC. In fact, I'm going to come back to that because... It was very, very nice what you done after the Southport riots and the civil unrest when all the protesters were coming for Liverpool mosque.

And you opened the door and you had conversations with, I mean, and rightly so, furious parents. And then you took them out food and you was having pictures with each other and you was communicating and communication is key.

We know that. And I brought you on the telly for that and you was applauded for that work. And there's something else you've done as well that I will quickly mention now because I'm sure we'll come back to him. But when Tommy Robinson got sent to jail, you was all, well, you was the only person that I saw.

you called for peace for tommy please don't anybody attacking in jail but the question i will come back to towards the end of the interview is like why would you even need to say that but let's go back to what i would consider the country's enemy which believe it or not He's an Islam. It's Keir Starmer. Now, I've seen you pictured with Keir Starmer. Tell me why. So, I'm glad you've asked because a lot of people attack me for that without asking.

I'd actually received three invitations to Number 10 within a two-month period. I didn't take up the first two invitations, but the third one I did because it was an invite. to lead the prayers and join an iftar, which is the breaking of the fast when the sun comes down, at number 10. And I was told there's going to be a bunch of talented young Muslims there. So I thought, well, if number 10 are identifying these...

Muslims with potential, future leaders, all the rest of it. That's a kind of crowd who I want to be there and and maybe even be a role model for, because what tends to happen, and you might not have any insight into this, but what tends to happen within the Muslim community, for whatever reason, when somebody gets to a certain level,

It sometimes feels like a lot of people in the community try and drag them down and attack them and turn on them, and they don't want them to exceed. So my thinking was, if these young people now... They come and meet somebody like me. I gave a reminder. I gave a talk at number 10. The prime minister was stood to my right. And what I was telling these young potential leaders is that the higher your rank and responsibility becomes,

the more of a servant you need to be to society. This was my message. The higher you get, stay humble. We have in our tradition a saying that the master of the people is their servant. Serve people. Everybody likes it when you go to a post restaurant and they lay the cutlery for you and they come and serve. Everybody likes to be served, but nobody likes to be the servant.

And the way I've been taught Islam, I've been very fortunate to travel all around the world and sit with some amazing, very, very wise, very spiritual men and women. And they've all taught me one thing, and that's be a servant. And the ego doesn't like being a servant. The ego doesn't like when somebody calls you and you're responding and then you're having whatever that service might be.

But that's my message, and that was my message at number 10. And I even reminded the prime minister, and he came up to me afterwards and he said, you know, I listened to what you said about being a servant, and that's something I want to do. And I said, well, there's a tray of dates.

And he literally picked up the tray of dates and handed them out to the Muslims. So that was a beautiful reaction. Am I the prime minister's biggest fan politically? There are lots of things. And this is me being nice. There are lots of things which I... I don't necessarily agree on. But again, and this is why I'm here sat with you. I'm a person who's not scared to sit down, meet with and engage.

with people who might be different to me. That's what happened in Liverpool when they came to protest outside the mosque. You know, I'm not scared. You know, you've seen me, I'm six foot tall, I'm quite broad. If I gave in to the whims of the youngsters, because a lot of young people on that night in Liverpool, in the Muslim community, they were like, we need to defend our mosque. Come on, let's get a fire. I'm saying, no, that's not strength. That's not courage.

We're taught that courage is in service. If you're strong, if you're a tough guy, you'll be able to suppress your ego, suppress your lower self, rise above it and be a servant to people. Some people see it as a weakness.

If you're serving somebody, I see it as a strength and it works on that night. And it's not even about having the moral of high ground saying, oh, look at me. Oh, you're coming to attack my mosque. I'm so much more morally superior than you. Look, I'm nice. I'm giving you food. It wasn't even about that.

You know, this old saying, kill them with kindness. I say, no, you don't kill them with kindness. You bring them to life with kindness. And my message, if you're to summarize it, in general, I know this sounds very, very cliche, but... This is my message. And it's not just a message I'm talking about. You can look at my past. You can look at my track record. You can look at the work I've been doing for years. It's try your best to be a nice person and help other people to be nice people as well.

And it works. Just want to say something that you've achieved that the British public haven't. You've got a lot more out of Keir Starmer than the rest of us have. You've got him serving dates. He hasn't served any of us yet. But we won't get hung up on that man. Everyone does when they come in here. You can't help but just rant about Starmer. But King Charles, so last night...

And yesterday you was at Buckingham Palace. King Charles invited you to their garden party. Yeah, that's right. What was that about and how was the king? Some people think conspiracy theorists, they believe King Charles is dead. Did you see him with your own eyes? I'm here to confirm. that King Charles is still alive. I've also noticed some conspiracy theories running wild on the internet that he's converted to Islam. I can also confirm I spent quite a bit of time with the chaplain to the king.

And we had some amazing conversations. I can also confirm that King Charles has not converted to Islam. So, yeah, you know, this is the thing, isn't it? The times we're in when people have lost so much. Trust in the mainstream media that these conspiracy theories are so easy to cling on to for a lot of people. And what is the benefit? You know, okay, the earth's flat and I'm not saying it is by the way.

Let's not go down the conspiracy theories, Drew. So what happened at Buckingham Palace when you were there? What is the garden party? So somebody gave me a call while I was driving down from Liverpool and they're like, when you see the king, tell him this and tell him this. And I said to my friend on the phone, I said, listen. if i'm being realistic i don't expect to speak with the king for more than five to ten seconds that's probably just a passing handshake and a

And that was optimistic. When I arrived, I realized that there were 8,000 people invited to each one of these and they happen three times a year. So there was a lot of people there. I did see the king very briefly. I did see... Prince William very briefly, but it wasn't what I was expecting in my head. But it was nice. There were bands playing the national anthem, and there was nice little snacks and treats and things, which...

I didn't have as many as I should have because I was just bumping into amazing people and having conversations. Any prostitutes and cocaine? Not that I saw, not that I saw. But they do say you find what you go looking for. I wasn't looking for that. Charles has let it slip. His party days are over. When you interacted with...

the Southport protesters when they come to your mosque? Because it's all documented on YouTube. It's not as if it didn't happen. It happened. There was a lot of angry parents that turned up to your mosque out of rage, out of sadness. Out of just lack of hope. But it happened. And you opened your doors to them and you mingled and you broke bread and you had conversations. From your perspective.

I mean, how did you find that experience? And what did you say to disarm people? And what did they say to show understanding to what you had to say? So this is what I've always said, Liam. So this picture went viral. By the way... And I think it's important to make this point. Just before I crossed over the road, there was a guy with a camera and I said, please don't come over. I don't want this to be a publicity stunt.

I specifically asked the guy with the camera not to come over because it was a genuine gesture to the people who came to protest outside the mosque. That's number one. And I didn't want it to be seen like that. However, a camera guy got over and as I was hugging... one of the protesters, he was probably the most vocal one, to be honest, the one who was shouting the most, had a bit of a conversation, talked about his issues.

You know, I asked a few people that night, to be honest, Liam, you're here at our mosque. What is it exactly that you're protesting against? And in all honesty, nobody seemed to have a clear answer. And I think that is because of what you said. What happened in Southport just ripped people apart inside and everybody felt helpless and like they had to do something, but they didn't know.

what to do and then all of a sudden you get these online flyers spreading around saying we're going to start protesting save our children on the pier head uh the the protest outside the Southport mosque, which turned into a riot. By the way, I'm good friends with the Imam there as well. And we've had a few events in the Southport mosque, which was smashed while all the people were still inside it. Nothing to do with the...

Sinister, horrible, evil being who stabbed those little girls, by the way, either the mosque or the community. And we've opened the doors of the Southport mosque as well, not just the Liverpool one. But one thing he did say, this guy outside the Liverpool mosque, who I hugged, again.

it's important to bear in mind that it wasn't just me hugging him. He had something inside him which allowed him to hug me. It's two ways, you see. And he said, yeah, I'm just fed up of two-tier policing. And I was like, well... in all due respect, why don't you go and protest outside the police station then? Why are you here at the mosque? But yeah, we actually wanted to, I wanted to take each and every single one of those protesters into our mosque.

sit down with them and hear them out and listen to their concerns. The police advised that it's not safe to do so. So we arranged it for a week after. However, this loud guy, I did take him. I snuck him into the mosque on the night and we had a little walk around the mosque and he...

He saw we weren't building bombs and planning to take over the country and all the rest of it. And it was a good interaction. And then a week later, again, we invited people in and people brought their questions. We had a session called... questioning Islam, tough questions and honest answers. And this is an ongoing series which I've been doing far before the riots. And we've engaged with people, members of Football Lads Alliance, members of the EDL when that was still a thing.

And every time, Liam, and I'm telling you, every single time we have these events where people who are angry with each other just sit down calmly, not talk, but listen to each other and...

I'll tell you the secret. The secret is in the food. Literally, at the end of the event, when people, Muslims, white British working class, young people, old people, men, women, at the end when they go and have a coffee, and some biscuits or some food it's not the food itself but it's the act of coming together and realizing that hold on and it's both ways it's it's not just it's not just the the kind of white communities uh misunderstandings about

Muslims, it's also Muslims' misunderstandings about members of the white community because everybody's looking at each other and shouting at each other. So... Many people within the white British working class community are looking at the Muslims and thinking they're terrorists, they're groomers, they're, you know, all the different attacks which we see left, right and centre. And...

People within the Muslim community are looking, oh, they're Islamophobes, they hate us, they want to burn our mosques down, they want to kick us out of the country. And then when you get them together over a cup of tea, and they start to realise that, you know, we've all got bills to pay.

the cost of living crisis, you know, we're all struggling a bit. Even the middle class now, you can't go on as many holidays as you used to enjoy. You start to realise that, and this is one thing I'm pushing for as well, is that the average Pakistani... British Muslim family in this country has more in common with your average working class white British family

than they do with some of these ideologues at the top who are pushing these sinister agendas. Let's talk about a very sinister act. We won't spend too long on it, but it will then segue into some... Well, some genuine concerns about Islam. And you mentioned about when I asked you a question, you said you're the first person that's asked me a question without attacking me. Just so you know, there's no attack here.

Ideas I might not like, but human beings, I know we've always got common ground. So from here on in, it's just going to be questions. There'll be no attack because... If you get into a heated debate, I find, I mean, it'd be different if you and me was down the pub and I don't drink, but if we were and we had seven hours to shout at each other and debate, then we can do that. But when we're trying to have a conversation within a sort of 90 minute, two hour window.

I think if you just keep debating all the time and it becomes heated, you don't really, you miss out on so many other details and we get caught up on one subject. It's like there was so much more to discuss. So this won't be a heated debate.

There will be questions that I'm sure people, if they're tuning in now, will think, okay, well, I'm going to stick around for this because it'll be interesting. Can I just say before you ask the questions? Anything you want. Yeah, before you start with the questions, this is what it's about.

Rather than people talking about each other, which is what I'm saying all the time, you know, all you have to do is put on the TV, watch GB News, watch Talk TV, all these debates, all these conversations about Muslims, about Muslims, about Islam, about the Islamic faith. And nobody's talking with Muslims. And it's, I find myself shouting at the screen, you know, some of these discussions they have. And yeah, let's go. So the Southport massacre.

He was sold to the British public as a Welsh choir boy. We know that Al-Qaeda manuals were found in his room, as were ricin, poison. So in his mind, he wanted to... cause as much terror as humanly possible. So because Keir Starmer missold it to the British public and he put his attention to the, in my opinion, non-existent far right, that's what I personally think triggered the civil unrest.

So, I suppose the first question is, would you agree that Axel Rudakabana was an Islamic terrorist because of the al-Qaeda manuals? So before that, the answer is no. But before that... Don't forget he was sold as something else before that. He was sold as a Syrian or Iraqi refugee who's recently arrived on a small boat coming over. And I think that's what kicked the riots off. He was sold online.

by some dodgy account as a refugee, but he was sold to the British public. From official sources. By the Prime Minister. Yeah. That's... unforgivable. I mean, lying to the nation like that over something so serious. I mean, for me, honesty is the best policy, which is why we're here today. And he should have been completely honest about that. But yeah, I hear you. But the Al-Qaeda manual.

Does that qualify him as an Islamist? Apparently he had works of Hitler as well. Does that make him a Nazi? I've heard rumours that he's been asking to pray as a Muslim in prison. But then I've heard other people say, no, I've spoken to the chaplain in that prison. He said, no. It's a load of rubbish. So we're in the realm of the unknown. We can guess. We can try and guess. Personally, I don't think he was Muslim. Was he inspired by Al-Qaeda? I think definitely he was by the looks of it.

Does he love death and killing and murder? Yeah. Can I explain his actions? No, not at all. But I remember when we were watching the news, my daughter came in as we were watching it unfold. At that point, they'd only announced two of the deaths. And my daughter, she was 14 at the time. She said, Dad, what's happened? And I said, yes, a girls' dance school in Southport's been attacked. And she's like, why? And I didn't have an answer for her. And this is the thing.

A lot of people ask me about these attacks and the way I describe it is it's almost like the Muslim community feels a double slap. whether it's the ariana grande concert in manchester being blown up whether it's the seven seven attacks on the buses whenever there's even if it

even if it was in the name of Islam and perpetrated by Muslims, with this Southport stabbing, there's still a lot of unanswered questions in the air, and time will tell. Personally, I don't think he's a Muslim. But if he was a Muslim... Does that now give us a green card? Okay, we can smash the Southport mosque up. We can protest outside the mosques and smash the city centres up. You see what I'm saying? Even if the guy was a Muslim.

And you've got a picture of him with a black flag and holding the Quran. And? Well, I think it's because there's been a sequence of events, atrocities, barbaric slaughtering of innocent people in the name of Islam. shouting Allah Akbar as they're doing it. And just for the record, what does Allah Akbar actually mean? God is the greatest. So can you agree that it's a very bizarre thing to be shouting as you're maiming and torturing and...

Or are you talking about the Southport attack? No, no, just in general, because we've had lots, haven't we? And you never hear someone saying Christ is king as they're trying to behead somebody. It's Allah Akbar. I mean, it's a term that actually... puts the fear of God in people. If I was to hear it out loud in public, it would certainly make me feel uneasy. So what do you think about that? Yeah, Allahu Akbar. It's a very widely used term amongst Muslims.

It's not the chant which you shout to slaughter disbelievers. It's something which you say when it's time to pray. When you start to pray, the first words you say are Allahu Akbar. And it's really not what it's been made out to be. When you get devils and terrorists and extremists abusing it, like the likes of ISIS, for example, you know.

That's all you'd ever see online, these videos of them shot. In fact, I say that ISIS, what they managed to do was take every beautiful sign and symbol and principle in Islam. and uglify it. And it's almost as if it was a deliberate attempt to uglify Islam in its entirety. They've gone now, thank God, more or less. I think there's still a few of them hanging around somewhere in Syria and Iraq. But for all means and purposes, they're done now.

You know, yeah, ISIS literally made my blood boil, Liam. I was one, I was part of the... So do you denounce ISIS? Without a shadow of a doubt. Do you denounce Al-Qaeda? Without a shadow of a doubt. And I have done for years. Do you denounce Hamas? When they're killing innocent people, of course, anybody, whatever name, whatever name you give yourself, if you're killing innocent people, that is not on. And so...

I was part of the first Western delegation to enter into the eastern side of Mosul in Iraq just after ISIS had been kicked out. They were still over the western bank of the Tigris River, and we were on the eastern bank. And I spoke with the locals in Mosul and the stories, which I'll be honest with you, when I went to Iraq, I thought that the Western media might have been exaggerating the brutality of ISIS and what they did.

When I arrived there, I find out that they've been under-exaggerating it, like literally evil personified. To my knowledge, ISIS, Hamas, Al-Qaeda, they're just rebrands of the same thing.

Yeah, yeah. I think, you know, in all fairness, I don't think you can put Hamas in the same category as ISIS and Al-Qaeda. And I'm being honest with you now, because there's a political background to Hamas. You know, they came out in elections and... etc, etc. So there is a difference, but it doesn't matter who is killing innocent people.

whether it's Hamas or whether it's Al-Qaeda or whether it's ISIS or whether it's the Lord's army or whether it's who, whatever name you call yourself, whatever claims you make, if you're killing innocent people, there's no room for it. So are they Muslims? Now this is a question, I've been asked this question before and I'm glad you've asked me that because I want to explain. So it's very, very difficult to put somebody outside the boundaries of Islam.

And for somebody to do actions which are un-Islamic, like murdering innocent people, like drinking alcohol, like eating pork, like whatever the sin is. That doesn't necessarily put somebody outside of Islam. What puts somebody outside of Islam is areas of creed. when you don't believe or you claim something which is outside the boundaries of Islamic creed. Does that make sense? Yeah. So say, for example, if there's a Muslim rapist, they're a Muslim rapist.

They're still Muslim. Raping somebody does not mean that you're excommunicated from the faith what you believe in. Am I making sense? You've committed a crime. It's anti-Islamic what you've done. Same with ISIS. Their deeds are anti-Islamic.

But for anybody to make a claim about the belief in their hearts is very, very dangerous territory. And ironically, it's a weapon what they use to call everybody else disbelievers. Do you see what I'm saying? This is a weapon of terrorists, this excommunication.

Like many people within ISIS, they'd consider somebody like me to be a non-Muslim. He's not Muslim. I wouldn't do the same to them because they're making claims with their mouth. Even though their actions are completely un-Islamic, it's not the role of a human being to delve into people's hearts. and put people outside of the faith. I've always found that this has been a point of sensitivity because what that means is if you were to come to me and say, do you believe Osama bin Laden was Muslim?

I have to say yes. Because was he Muslim? Yes. Were his actions Muslim? Were his actions Islamic? Completely the opposite of Islam. Okay. Yeah. Does it upset or does it sicken you? that Osama bin Laden was a Muslim? Thoroughly. Thoroughly. Not just that. Not just that he was a Muslim, that he was doing the things that he did in the name of Islam. Would you not be in danger for speaking like this in their space?

Possibly, possibly. But I think there's also a chance that we over-exaggerate the threat and the danger as well. And I think this idea that we have... We have potential terrorists running around everywhere. So when you go past your local mosque and you see people in traditional clothing, I think there is a tendency to just assume, oh, they're extremists. There are conservative Muslims who are actually quite mainstream.

and actually quite moderate in their beliefs. Actually, these are the majority of Muslims. We do have some fruitcakes. We've got some lunatics. And I don't know if we're going to come on to Tommy Robinson now, but... I believe that a big part of why Tommy Robinson speaks the way he does about Islam, because what he's saying is I don't have an issue with Muslims. I have an issue with Islam, the faith. It's not about the people. It's about the belief. I don't think that's fair.

However, if I consider Tommy Robinson's context and his background in Luton, and he's grown up around Al-Muhajirun, who were literally the door for ISIS. then I can, I'm not justifying, but I can understand why he's opposed to Islam the way he is, if that's the version of Islam. He puts his car window down and gets a punch. Oh, that's very Islamic though, isn't it? You had to cover your arse, didn't you? I'm not justifying Tom Robinson.

but I agree with him. There you go. Any of them almost agree with Tommy Robinson? No, no. If I'm honest, no. Is there nothing you agree with? I think, right, so who is Tommy Robinson? You see, I think there are three different versions of Tommy. I think there's the version which many people within the Muslim community, maybe even people on the left as well, together with the Muslim community, see him as an Islamophobe.

as a racist, as a troublemaker, as an instigator of riots. That's one. Then there's the other one, which I think a lot of people in the white British working class seem as, and this is this heroic figure. He's willing to sacrifice his freedom. to speak up to authorities and speak for the truth. He's willing to deal with and tackle head-on causes which nobody else has time for. That's the hero, Tommy. So we've got the villain, Tommy. We've got the hero, Tommy.

And I think the reality will be somewhere in between. And, you know, you're going to meet him as soon as he comes out of prison. And I think... You know, I said this from the start when we were talking about prison and him being sent down. It's going to be a time to reflect a lot about what he wants to do. So Tommy Robinson, I'll say it now, he has a lot of potential. He's very, very talented. He's able to warm up to people. He's able to deal with things which many people shy away from.

The methods which he uses, I don't fully agree with. I think he can be quite emotional. And I think sometimes he... It's just the way he is. He's from the streets of Luton. And the way he gets his point across sometimes comes across as very, very aggressive. You know, I think the guy, I think the tummy in the middle, the one who is close friends now, I think is somebody on a journey.

I think he's definitely on a journey. Lots of opportunities are going to be opening up for him as soon as he comes out from prison. And he's an intelligent guy. I know he is. I know a few of his friends who are close with him. They all say the same thing. He's an incredibly...

intelligent person. And like I said, when he comes out of prison, there's going to be lots of doors and opportunities open for him, probably more now than before he went into prison. And I just pray and I hope... that he's able to choose the right doors, which are going to be not just right for him and his family, but also going to be right for our society and people at large in this country.

You see, I gave my word that this wouldn't be a heated debate and this could quite easily spend the next hour debating Tommy because I see him, I know his intentions. But this is about getting the other side, different perspective. And that's boxed off and we can move on. And that is why I think it's important to have conversations, certainly before you get into a debate, get a better understanding about everything. But what does Islam actually teach?

What does Islam teach? Well, the base, base, base, base message is, and this was taught by the Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him, that there is no Lord except God. It's all about the concept of one God. And we're taught that this is nothing new. It's not a new religion. It's actually the old and the ancient religion. And it was the religion of Jesus and what he taught. And it was the religion of Moses and what he taught. Abraham, Noah, all the way back to Adam.

this idea that there's one God. It's understanding that we're in this world for a short time and to do whatever good you can do while you're here, before you leave, because you will be judged. If you don't get found out in court in this life, for the harm that you've caused to others, you will be taken to account in the next life.

What does the word Islam mean? I've heard it means submission. Right, so it does, it does, it means, but it's got lots of connotations. So the amazing thing about Arabic, I won't get too complex, but the amazing thing about Arabic is... words are part of families and so Islam has the root letters the other words which come from that have the connotations of it so you've got Salam which is peace

You've got istislam, which is submission. And you've got salama, which is safety. So it's all these different connotations. So in English, you can't really say it's submission. It is submission and it's also peace and it's also safety and it's all these other things. And can I just say to people in the comments from this section onwards that are watching and listening, it would be a very poor interview.

if I got strung up on one detail and went back and forth for the next hour and a half. So anyone that has got anything to contest, put it in the comments, even if you don't like what I'm doing or saying. I'm not above criticism, but I want to move this along. Can I tell you something what I'm expecting in the comments? I look like Grant Mitchell. And I look like Pavarotti. So there's a group of people and they're hardcore Islam haters. They're convinced in the depths of...

their heart that there's no such thing as a good Muslim. And even when you see a nice person who's a Muslim, nah, it's a snake grain. They're up to something. They're trying to deceive you. And they call this word taqiyya. Taqiyya. That's on the list. Is it? Okay. What is taqiyya? Right. So basically... Are you lying to me? I know. I'm not lying to you. But I know. I've told you I'm going to be straight and I'm going to be honest. But I know the meaning of this word taqiyya.

What I do from time to time is I ask my young Muslim students what you've just said. What is taqiyah? Nobody knows. Shall I tell you what I've heard it means? I've heard that it's stamped in the Quran that taqiyah means you can lie. to get ahead. So you can, you could be sat here pretending that you're quite friendly and you mean no harm convincingly, but really you're plotting and scheming against me and it's okay to do that in the eyes of Allah.

My plan is so amazing. I've been feeding the homeless for years, all to hide my real plan. And I've been helping people in society for years. And I've been building bridges and relationships and friendships. And it's all about this big plan to take. Come on. How can you prove somebody wrong? Imagine if someone makes that accusation against you. You're using taqiyya against me. But back to my point. So I speak to Muslims. They are clueless. They don't know what taqiyya is yet somehow.

They're too busy lying. No. All these Islamophobes know what it is. Actually, actually, in its use... It's actually more used or it's part of the Shia Muslim narrative. And I'm not saying this to kind of put the Shia Muslims down, but I'm a Sunday Muslim. The Shia Muslims are a minority in the Muslim world. But what it's meant is in circumstances that they have been persecuted, that they're allowed to say something to appear more normal within society.

at the expense of them being hurt or attacked. So Shiite Muslims, they do have a concept of taqiyya. The vast majority of Muslims, it's not even a thing for them or a religious teaching, really. And it's ironic that... And this is the thing, everybody's an expert on Islam, aren't they? Oh no, I've read the Quran.

Do you know what? It is so tempting to go into debate, but I won't because I'm enjoying the free-flowing conversation. Describe the Prophet Muhammad to me. So if we're to talk about the base... description of the Prophet Muhammad peace and blessings be upon him it would be mercy merciful and you look at his interactions and I know we're going to come on to his marriage next that's fine the Prophet Muhammad peace and blessings be upon him was mercy

When he came 1,500 years ago in Arabia, he encouraged people to liberate slaves. He encouraged women to have rights which they'd never had before. Women could not inherit. They weren't even allowed to inherit. I think even in this country, just over 200 years ago, women were allowed to inherit from their fathers. The Prophet Muhammad brought this 1,500 years ago. He treated minorities.

with care and respect and protection. He dealt with elderly people in a way which was merciful. The way he dealt with children was a way which was merciful. And I know we're going to come on to that point. It's good. It's ironic. Mercy. It's all about, and he told us that the closest of you to me on the day of resurrection and to be in the company of the prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, on the day of resurrection is seen as an honor.

to be close to him on the day of resurrection he said the closest of you to me on the day of judgment is he whose character is best in other words the way that you deal with people the way that you treat with people I'd say that's a summary. It doesn't do justice. That's fine. Summaries are good because we've still got a lot of ground to cover. And in the eyes of every Muslim, is the Prophet Muhammad the perfect person? Yeah, a role model.

Okay. And is a Muslim man's job to emulate the Prophet Muhammad? Yes. Okay, so these are all true. What would happen if you were to speak ill or mock the Prophet Muhammad? So there's no need for me to do that. But if you did? Under Sharia law? I have nothing to say about the Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him. If another Muslim did, not you. There you go.

Under Sharia law, you've got to again define Sharia law. This is something which I've studied for years. And, you know, some countries have blasphemy laws. And some countries are really strict. Somebody who insults the Prophet.

Peace and blessings be upon him. It depends. So do you go by the legislation of the country or do you look at how the prophet acted? Because many people came and insulted him to his face. What did he do to them? I'd say, well, give me two examples. Give me a mild example and give me an extreme example.

Okay. Well, you've got many, many, many examples from the Seerah, which is the records of the life of the Prophet, where people came up to his face and abused him physically. They abused him verbally. They cursed him.

they disbelieved in him to his face and his reaction was a reaction of what i just described then mercy what you've got is a development of scholastic world works afterwards which have kind of put together The cursing or insulting the Prophet Muhammad together with treason So they've seen it as rebelling against the state

If you rebel against Islam, you're rebelling against the Sikh. And does that end in death? Even apostasy, yeah. So apostasy, another thing which is similar to insulting the Prophet. apostasy if a person leaves Islam so first and foremost there's there's no verse in the Quran which talks about a death penalty for apostates when it comes to the books of law which have obviously been been developed afterwards

There was, it was introduced. Whether it's implemented today or not is a completely different discussion. And I don't think maybe with a handful of exceptions that it's implemented anywhere. So back to apostasy. It was interpreted. Times were very different back then. You know, if you want to leave Islam, you're not just leaving, you're not saying, I don't believe this in my heart now.

It's almost like you're rebelling against your country. You're rebelling against your people. And it's the same as treason. But should people be killed for leaving Islam or not believing in Islam? No.

Should people be killed for insulting the Prophet Muhammad in these times? Of course not, it's ridiculous Let's talk, let's talk And if anything, so there was one case where the Prophet Muhammad, somebody wrote some poetry uh lines of poetry it was basically an attack on the prophet dissing him like really

When you say someone, are we talking about Salman Rushdie? No, no, at his time, the time of the prophet. Somebody put this poetry together, they were cursing him, they brought the poetry to him, they read it to him, he said, this is describing someone else, this is not me. And so even these attacks which we hear today on the Prophet Muhammad, a lot of people say, how do you put up with it? Because sometimes, especially when you're dealing with people who are kind of prone to hating Islam.

Hating Allah, God, hating the Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him I have an ability to have something inside me which is called white hot heat And I can just stand there And I can take a lot of abuse. And usually it's not even about the issues what people bring up. There's something behind the issues. So when somebody comes up to me and shouts, the Prophet Muhammad was a paedophile. The Prophet Muhammad was a warlord. He was a murderer.

And I'm there. First of all, I'm thinking, well, they're not describing the prophet who I know and who I've studied his life for the past 20 odd years of my life. This is not the same person they're describing. And so once I understand it's coming from a place of ignorance, I can be patient. And I let them finish. Did he not behead 100 Jews in one day?

No, not personally. And the thing is, you're talking about, I think, Bani Qurayza. This was one of the wars in Medina. And those people who were killed because the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, he did engage in war. He did engage in war. He didn't kill anybody himself. This image that he's a warlord. Let me ask you a question. All of the battles, and there were several battles throughout the life of the prophet, him and his companions, the people around him.

And all the idol worshippers and the Jews and the disbelievers and everybody else, they were fighting on the battlefield. How many people do you think were killed in total during the life of the prophet? Have a guess. Oh, I wouldn't know. Just over 700. 700 people, not killed by the prophet, killed in legitimate, legitimate military kind of encounters.

And even during those encounters, you know, there's a line of poetry which talks about the prophet and it says your generosity is extended even to your enemies. So how then for the ones who love you? So even during the battle, if anybody in the battle, the prophet saw signs in them that actually there's goodness in this person, he'd tell people, no, no, stay away from them.

Was there 100 Jews that were beheaded in the same day? Right, so back to this. I don't know the exact figures, but the Bani Qurayda... Did the Prophet Muhammad give the order? The Bani Qurayda, they were a Jewish tribe from Medina, which is where the Prophet established his state.

They were ordered to be killed, but the reason they were ordered to be killed was not because they were Jewish. The reason they were ordered to be killed is because they broke a treaty. They broke a treaty, what was in place, where they'd pledged allegiance and they said that they would be...

on the side of Muslims fighting the Muslims who were coming up from a different part of Arabia. Sorry, the idol worshippers who were coming from a different part of Arabia. And when it came to the crunch, they actually switched sides and gave victory. So they were... treason. They'd switched sides and so that was the punishment. Is it true that a whole line of Jews were lined up and the Prophet Muhammad checked to see if the...

Males had pubic hair and if they did they were old enough and they were the ones who got beheaded in front of their female family. I've not heard that and it does sound very suspicious. It sounds very suspicious. Is there any chance it could be true? I can't say. I can't say. It's not something I've come across, but it sounds very suspicious to me. Okay. And so because the Prophet Muhammad is considered...

Merciful. Is that why Islam is considered by Muslims as the religion of peace? Yeah. Okay. Not just that. Mercy is a common theme throughout Islam. It's a common theme. And this is why when we see terrorism... when we see violence, when we see abuse, it's a very simple rule. So the prophet, peace and blessings be upon him. I'm going to teach you a legal maxim now in Islam. Do not commit harm and do not allow harm to be committed. That's it.

It's simple. So then when you see harm now being committed, when you see people being abused, when you see young girls being exploited and groomed, when you see people being sold drugs, whatever type of harm it is.

Know that it's alien from the teachings of Islam. Mercy runs through it. So the first verses, when you open the Quran, even the Quran experts we've got back home who think they're experts, open the Quran, what are the first words? The Quran starts, in the name of God, the beneficent, the merciful. When we study hadiths, which are the sayings of the Prophet, there's a tradition, which I am part of, which goes from generation to I have a direct chain.

to the Prophet Muhammad peace and blessings be upon him through my teachers so I've read this hadith first with somebody who's read this hadith first with somebody who's read all the way up to the Prophet Muhammad and the hadith is the saying of the Prophet Muhammad

The most merciful shows mercy to those who are merciful. Have mercy to those on earth and those in the heavens will show mercy to you. That's the first hadith we study when we're studying the sayings of the Prophet Muhammad. Now I know this is going to sound alien to you. Because the narrative what's out there right now is completely different to this narrative. It's all about violence and aggression and taking over and abusing. And I hope that people...

If they're going to be fair, if they're going to be fair, like I said, open the crown, see what the first verse is in there. This is where I put my disclaimer in. Respectfully, I don't believe a word of anything you've said, but I believe that you believe it. But I would say this to a Christian, Jew, Sikh, because I'm not religious. No, no, I get that. I respect that. It's a religious thing. So if Islam is a religion of peace, how do we explain...

The Charlie Hebdo massacre and the Salman Rushdie attempted assassination. Easy. Go for it. Muslims are humans. And some humans... are psychopaths. Some humans are narcissists. Some humans are paedophiles. Some humans are abusers. And I'll tell you, I'll tell you the situation where we're at. And I'm glad I can use this platform to...

hopefully scream some sense into people. What's happened now in this country, what's happened is the media narratives, and these are not narratives from our streets, they're not from the white British working class people. Even when we're talking about two-tier policing, this is not the vocabulary of our people. It's a technical term which has been fed down from above. When we're talking about grooming gangs.

This is not the language of our people. I'm talking about the white British working class. Again, it's something which has been fed down from above. So we need to be careful and we need to see who's really... pulling the strings here in society. But back to the point I was making. So what's happened with the narrative now is imagine a circle, and within this circle, you've got Muslims.

You've got immigrants, you've got legal immigrants, illegal immigrants, you've got people of ethnic minorities, you've got asylum seekers, you've got a big bunch of people in this circle. And whenever... any one of them makes any mistake or commits a crime or does something horrible, then what happens is, I think it's just a psychological response is that you blame everybody within that circle.

for that. And I think that's what happened on Southport. Everyone was blamed. Everyone within that circle. Ethnic minorities, religious minorities, brown people, Muslims, immigrants, illegal or legal, people who are... sons of third generation, second generation. If somebody goes tomorrow who fits within that circle.

and causes chaos on the streets of London and kills people, probably going to be Muslims who are killed along with them. Because, by the way, just for the record, ISIS bombs don't differentiate between Muslims and non-Muslims and atheists and Christians and Jews. They just kill whoever's there. And Muslims are often victims of these attacks, don't forget. So what I'm saying is whenever anybody within that circle commits a crime, everybody gets blamed for it.

And it is a bit boring, to be honest, because I'm having to stand up and say, no, we denounce this. And of course we flipping denounce it. Well, I don't see many Muslims denounce Islamic media. Because the media don't show it. I've been denouncing ISIS for years. So what's the difference? between a Muslim and an Islamist? So the way I understand it is an Islamist is somebody who's deeply into their politics and it's all about Islam taking over.

They often tend to be people on benefits and not even able to run their own families and homes, so I don't know how they're going to run a global caliphate. But you denounce Islamists? I think Islamists are Froot Loops, yeah, not just denounce. But do you think there's far too many Islamists? But they're still Muslims. They're still Muslims. In an ideal world, I think a lot of these people are trouble causes.

And the irony is... Do you think there's too many trouble causes? How does the Islamic community... At least attempt to put an end to Islamic radicalisation. Well, let's take Anjum Chowdhury as an example. Perfect. What do you think about that piece of shit? Anjum Chowdhury, when he got his prison sentence, me and my family, we had a party.

we celebrated what did the muslim community do to uh to tackle him well first of all he was banned from all mosques no mosques will give him a platform which is ironic because what happens when People who follow his ideology blow things up. The protests, whether they happen outside our mosques, the same mosques who are deplatforming somebody like Anjum Chowdhury. The problem with him is he was always in the media, in the mainstream media.

And I know for a fact, if I was an average white British non-Muslim living in Cornwall, where there are hardly any Muslims, I'm assuming there are hardly any Muslims. my image, the image what I would have of Islam in the UK is that it's full of communities like Anjum Chowdhury and he's one of their leaders and I'd be scared as well and I probably want to protest against it but the point is

He wasn't given platforms by the mosques. The mosques and the people within the mosques who come from this mainstream Islamic tradition, the vast majority. vast vast majority it's you know sometimes people look at me and oh no he's just one one individual and yeah not everybody i'll tell you something a lot of muslim communities in the uk especially in the northern towns

They're conservative, i.e. they've got the dress and the big beards and sometimes they cover their faces. But when it comes to their understanding and ideology, they're not Islamists. They're actually quite balanced when it comes to their beliefs. There is a lot of cultural practice as well. And don't forget, maybe we'll talk more about culture because, you know, I don't know if one of your questions is, is there a place for Islam in this country? Can Islamic and British values...

Let's touch base on that then, because it's clear that the Sikh community and the Jewish community and the Hindu community, they have assimilated more successfully than the Islamic community. Why do you think that is and how could that change? Okay, you say that, but Sikhs get attacked when there's an Islamist terrorist attack in London. They get attacked on the street, they get punched. Hindu temples get attacked.

But on the whole, assimilation-wise... No, but why? Why are they getting attacked? Ignorance, isn't it? People think they're Muslims and they're attacking them. Okay, but how come Islam struggled the most to assimilate? I get that, but I just want to go a little bit. Do you see what I'm saying? These people are finding it hard. Even Hindus and Sikhs are finding it difficult to integrate because an integration is two ways, you know. It's not just one way.

You've got to be accepted. And I'll be honest with you, on the streets where I grew up, in my white British working class area, I'll be honest with you, we weren't the most welcoming people to people who looked different or sounded different. So even if a Muslim or a Sikh or a Hindu wanted to integrate anyway, they weren't really going to be welcome. So in short, without the politician response, are you saying that you feel rejected as a Muslim?

I think there is a push factor and there's a pull factor. I think the push factor is the rejection to some extent from, and it's not everywhere. It's not everywhere. You know, there are a lot of vibrant communities and I think Muslims have integrated. And I think, again, again, let's go back to the late 1800s. The first mosque, what was established in this country, in the first Muslim community, they were white British Scousers. And, you know, Lord, what was his name?

Lord Headsley, who was the Lord Mayor of Stallybridge, he was in that community, he was a Muslim. There were members in the Houses of Lords, MPs, poets, writers, and just British people who were Muslim. Let's move on to... The Prophet Muhammad and Aisha. We have to go there. So why did he marry Aisha? How old was she? How old was he? And how many wives did he have at the time? Right. So the first marriage of the Prophet Muhammad.

peace and blessings be upon him, was to a lady called Khadija. The most popular narrative, and there are differences in this, the most popular narrative is that he, a virgin, was 25, and she was previously married, two previous marriages, and she was 40 years old.

So he married Khadija and she was his only wife for as long as she was alive. And then she passed away. When she passed away, after that, his first wife after that was Aisha. Aisha... was the daughter of an older friend of his who was known as Abu Bakr so they knew each other very very well and we have hadiths which say

that the age of the marriage was when Aisha was six years old and the marriage was consummated, i.e. marital relations took place at nine years old. This is what everybody's homing in onto, okay? I just want to... Pause, right? Ask yourself, if this is a pressing question for you, ask yourself, why is this such an important issue? What does it mean? Let's say assuming, and I'm not saying this, let's say assuming.

I'm not saying this. Let's say the Prophet Muhammad had a relationship with a young girl. I'm not saying that. And I'm going to come on to clarify that after. Okay, then what? You've proved Islam wrong? Does that prove Islam wrong? We can't take anything from him. If he's doing that to a small child, therefore we think he's morally wrong and we will not take any teachings he brings us about God or about how we should live our life. Is that what it's about? Okay, fair enough.

Right, now let's go a little bit deeper. Let's go a little bit deeper. There's the science of hadith, which is what I've mentioned. And by the way, the hadiths, which mention the ages of six and nine. They're considered to be sahih hadith. So they're authentic in their chains of transmission. So what that means is every person who's transmitted this information all the way back to the Prophet can be vouched for.

It's a reliable chain of transmission. As to the actual content of the hadith, that's a different story. There are different rules involved. However... There's another science in Islam which is called Sira. This is the science of biography, i.e. timescales and timelines and looking at... And people have put together the age of her sister and when she's described when certain things have happened. And if you go down that path, then it takes Aisha from 18 to 20 years old at that time.

So it's not as straightforward as it seems. Now, this is the... I'm not trying to be clever here. I'm just saying that whichever opinion... you go with or whichever you kind of guess that that was her age in that time the time that they were living she was a woman she wasn't a child Because the Prophet Muhammad himself taught that it's forbidden to have sex between whether it's a boy or whether it's a girl.

before the age of puberty. At that time, that's what adulthood was. As soon as you reach puberty, whether you're a boy, whether you're a girl, whether you're 15 or whether you're 13, at that time, you're considered now an adult. That's the way it worked. Nobody in the time of the Prophet Muhammad criticized him for this. It wasn't a moral issue back then. And I think it's a bit, I don't think it's fair to take moral standards what we have today.

To take moral standards, what we have today, and apply them to a situation which happened 1,500 years ago. When it comes to Islamic law, we have, so the vast majority of Muslim countries, just for the record, who follow Sharia or whose laws are based on Sharia.

will have 18 as the age of consent, or some have 16. And that's the whole point. It's forbidden. It's forbidden to have sex with a child. Obviously, the definition of what a child was back then is different to what a child is now, because a child in our times... is somebody who's under 18, right? Whether they've reached puberty or not, it doesn't matter. 18 is the key age. Go back 200 years ago, it wouldn't even have been an issue here in this country. That's 200 years.

Never mind 1,500. So let's go, let's just say we're living in, you know, hundreds of years ago, thousands of years ago. So is it fair to say that let's just say... A 56-year-old man, for example, as I believe the prophet was when he contummated the marriage, sounds insane even saying it out loud. I hear what you're saying. But back then, there was nothing remotely strange or unusual about it. Well, guys, good job I wasn't about back then. No, no, if you were about back then...

You would have probably had a 12-year-old wife as well. Look at Mary. Look at Mary in the Bible. I don't agree. See, this is the beauty of me. I know you don't believe. I don't agree or believe in any of it. I think the whole thing's fucking madness. Okay. I've finished the question. So...

We're living in olden times. And is it fair to say that a 56-year-old man could be looking into a bedroom of a child one day that's playing with her dolls? And if she has a period that night, the next day, by law, he can have sex with her. I think that's a very spectacular way to put it. I mean, the whole thing's pretty spectacular. We're talking about a 56-year-old man having sex with a nine-year-old. That just sounds like a headline for the sun, to be honest. But is that the reality, though?

It's not the reality. Is that what happened? Is that what was allowed to happen? I think technically, yeah, amongst their system back in those days. And it wasn't an issue. And it was across religions Like what I said And I know you don't believe But the point I'm trying to make is This wasn't like some Islamic teaching Thou shalt have sex with little kids

It's not in the Quran. On the contrary, we're prohibited. It's a crime in Islam to have any sexual relationship with a child. And this goes on to the discussion, which I'm sure we'll come to about grooming gangs as well.

Because I've been speaking out about this, and I don't know how people have managed to conflate grooming gangs with Islamic teachings, and it's very convenient for them. But it's like none of these paedophiles, when they're stood in court, being asked by the judge, like, what was it?

None of them said, well, actually, I'm a believing Muslim and I'm following the Prophet Muhammad and this is what he... None of them have said that. They don't even pray in the mosque. Alcohol, last time I checked, it's prohibited anyway in drugs, what they're piling these girls with.

so that's not islamic and i i just i find it unfair that people have conflated the the two things and all of a sudden this narrative is like okay the prophet it's interesting how it's developed the prophet muhammad married a young girl therefore he was a paedophile therefore because the prophet

is an ideal role model for Muslims and they should follow him. That's why we've got these grooming gangs in Rotherham and in Blackburn and all around these times. It's unfair and it's not right and you can't blame the religion for it. So in this... modern day and age, if you had a neighbour or your brother, for example, and he was 56 and, well, we can't say have sex if you sleep with somebody under the age of consent, even if they'd had their first period. Statutory rape, isn't it?

And would you absolutely condemn that? Of course. See, this is where I, not this is a debate, but just to make it clear. So for me... I wouldn't care if it was a million years ago. I know the difference between a child and a fully grown man. And there is no way that in my head, and I think I speak for a lot of people here, would ever be able to say...

but things were different back then. I think most people would say it was fucking disgusting and it should never have happened. He's not the perfect person, but we like the rest of the stuff that he does. Yeah, you're more than welcome. You're more than welcome to say that. But I honestly believe if you were in this country 200 years ago, you'd have a very different opinion. 200 years ago in this country. Look at the royals and the kings and what they were up to and the ages and all.

And all the rest of it. I think they're all despicable. You do now, but back then it was the norm. Yeah, it wouldn't have been for me. And I think it's unfair to judge somebody on a moral compass, which is completely modern and wasn't... wasn't

at that time like what for example say for example the next 50 years in our society we we develop somehow we become woke and we think that they'll actually sex when you're young is not good you must you must wait until you're 30 years old okay let's let's put the age of consent now to 30 years old, you're gonna be seen as a perv.

It's a bit different, though. It's not? No, it's very different. We know a nine-year-old is a child. We know a six-year-old is a baby. We know a 56-year-old man with a beard and a sword hanging down by his side should not be sleeping with a nine-year-old. Yeah, I like the sword hanging down by the side description, but that's not the way it was. Okay. We'll move on from that because I'm sure the comments section will be going absolutely mad, but obviously we completely disagree.

on that, like massively, but we could spend another hour back and forth on that. You asked about the wives as well, just for the record, the other wives. So Aisha was the first one. And why did he need a new wife? Oh, this is a question, isn't it? Very good question. Thank you.

So they were 14 in all and at one point I think they were 10 or 12 after Aisha. Now this image, another image that the Prophet Muhammad is running around looking for all the virgin girls, each and every single one of his wives. was a divorcee and had children from previous, or had children from previous marriages. And some of them were older than him. So why did he need such a young wife? That's the way it worked. That's the way it worked.

But the thing is there, you're looking, and it wasn't even an issue. Shall I tell you what I think the biggest bugbear is for people this day and age? I don't think it's so much the fact that the Prophet Muhammad was behaving like a deviant all them thousands of years ago. I think it's the fact that people defend it now.

rather than just saying, fucking disgusting. They say, yeah, but it was different back then. So almost you're justifying it. No, but what you're talking about is you're talking about a different time and a different set of moral standards. And by these standards, it's by the standards what you're...

describing is it's disgusting for me how can i call some it's like okay then does does a christian call god disgusting because virgin mary became pregnant when she was i think it's between 10 and 12 years old when she gave birth to Jesus, according to Christian scholars. Does that mean the Christian God's disgusting? That's just the way things worked back then. Is denouncing the prophet Mohammed such a... Whoa.

so badly frowned upon and could put people in danger within Islam. Is that why you think maybe that the teachings have really convinced you to do you think you could be a victim of Islam? What do you mean by fiction? Hashtag me too. Is there any chance that you could have been fooled into believing the Islamic scripture? If you've read it for so long, for so many times, has it embedded itself in your brain? Is there a chance of that?

I think any open-minded person, and I like to see myself as open-minded, is I'm not going to commit to something wholeheartedly without ever accepting other potentials. So that's where I am. And that's where I've been for many years. You have to be open-minded. You have to be open-hearted. And for me, from the day I was introduced to Islam until now, it's been my thing. It's been my thing. That doesn't mean I'm not intrigued. I'm not interested to look into other things and explore.

the potential of other things potentially being right. But I think it's going to be difficult. Could I convert you to atheism, take you down the pub and get you on the piss and then take you to a strip club? Is there a chance I could do that? If I give you my book to read. Oh, my dears. This is on a podcast, doesn't it? I hope not. I was just about to say I won't tell anyone, but they're watching.

He's watching. God's watching. I forgot the big man watches us all the time. That's the point, isn't it? Yeah. So I hope not. I hope not. But this is the thing we're taught, you know, never be so righteous. Never believe you're so special. So we actually have this story of two men.

And one man is this righteous worshipper all his life devoted to God and prayers and all the rest of it. And there's another unruly man and he just drinks and womanizes and all the rest of it. But the pride, sorry, the righteous man. He had arrogance in his heart. And just before he passed away, he slipped and he went down the wrong path. And he passed away upon that. And so that was his seal. That was his ending. And this other man.

This unruly, womanising criminal. He was humble. Even though he was a bad person, he was humble. And just before he passed away... He went down the right path, and that was his seal. So it's never judge anyone, we're told. Even when you walk past somebody who appears to be a drug addict in the street, never look down on them.

You don't know where they are. You don't know what their story is. You don't know in what state they're going to leave this life. And you don't have any guarantee that you're going to leave this life in that state either. And you don't know how many nine-year-olds they've married. And you don't know about all this drinking. So I hope my last moments in this life are not in a strippers club drinking. But I have no guarantee. And so I've got to keep on it.

We are doing very well so far. Do you agree? I like you. We're doing very, very well. But the point is, we're not going to agree on everything. You said yourself you're an atheist. I've said myself, I'm a believer. You don't believe what... Let me give you an example. We had this event. This was in Preston. And some EDL came along and some pretty hardcore members of groups came along to this event. And we were talking about Islamic Sharia.

Because everybody thinks they know what Sharia law is and it's here to take over, blah, blah, blah, all the rest of it. So we had this discussion about Sharia. And one guy, he was live feeding to social media. He's shouting so all his followers can hear. I don't believe that any of your Islamic laws should be implemented in this country. We are a Christian country. We've got Christian laws. Forgive the accent. We've got Christian laws.

And there's no room for your laws. And do you know what I said to him? I said, well, I'm a student of Sharia. I've studied it. Not like this ISIS lot. They just make it up as they go. I've studied Sharia, I've devoted, I've studied Islamic jurisprudence at a university here, and I've studied Sharia subjects in different countries around the world, and I've got a bit of a sense. That's another thing I like to do, travel a lot.

and listen to everybody and try and take the best what you can find here and there. So I said to him, well, actually, the Islamic Sharia itself teaches that it's forbidden, haram, to implement... any punishment laws in a land which is not run by Muslims. So if somebody came to me, for example, in the mosque in liverpool i said oh i've just shoplifted i've just been the just been the asda they call it the asda just just slipped

Twigs. Yeah. Can you chop my hands off? Because I want the punishment. I see it's there in Islam and I read it in the Quran. I want the punishment. Can you please? It's forbidden. You cannot do that. So what I said to him is actually what you're saying is what Sharia law teaches. There are certain countries that still stone women, though, aren't there? I'm not sure. I think it's exaggerated, to be honest. I'm not sure. I'd be happy if people could give examples. I think maybe tribal...

lawless parts of some countries. I think maybe in certain parts of Iraq, in northern Iraq, the Muslims will stone their daughters for fornication and the police won't do anything about it. And the Yazidi community, they'll do the same if a Yazidi woman falls in love with a Muslim man. And if a Christian woman falls in love with her, they're all stoning their daughters to death. But that's outside of the law.

In terms of genuine death penalty or stoning people to death, I don't think it's that prevalent. And I don't want to discount, if somebody is literally on death row right now waiting to be stoned to death, I apologise to them. if it is happening somewhere. But I think the instances of it are so small, but again, it's blown out of proportion and it's made part of this kind of anti-Islam narrative. Do women live a sorrowful existence in Islamic countries? Yeah.

And I know it's in Muslim countries. Yeah, I think there's a big difference, isn't there, between cultures. I don't think it's exclusively Muslim countries. I think if you found a Buddhist country nearby this Muslim country which you're talking about, it's probably quite similar there.

Or a Hindu country. Don't you try and deflect with comparing it to other countries? Let's stick with Islam. No, but what I'm saying is it's a cultural thing. And I think it's unfair to use examples of a woman being stoned to get to death in Iran. or women being whipped for driving in Saudi, which has obviously changed in the last few years. But I think it's unfair to use these examples and then throw it as an attack on me in my mosque in Liverpool.

The same way that when this Southport, evil Southport stabber did that horrible, tragic thing to those little girls in the dance school, I think that's unfair that you're coming to my mosque and protesting outside. It's unfair. Let's talk. And what of it really has meaning? What means anything to us if we're talking about looking after ourselves and our communities and our children and our family and our society?

Then let's stick to what's relevant here. Do women cover their modesty with the burka through fear or through choice? I think there's a mix. I think a lot of women, even in this country, even the full face veil. I think in some communities it's a cultural thing. And I think for many, many other women, they choose to do it. So, for example, I have three daughters. Two of my daughters, they wear their headscarf and one doesn't. And both are the ones who do.

They chose when they were ready to do it. Obviously, some gentle encouragement from me and my wife, but nothing, yeah, whenever they were ready. And then we threw a little party for them. And, yeah, that's the way it was done. And if one of my daughters was to say, I am not wearing my headscarf, who am I to force her?

Well, you seem like a very nice chap, but there are people... That's what they all say. There are people that aren't quite... You're a good one. I'm telling you, the vast majority... But you do know there are some very, very controlling husbands that will just... no ifs, no buts, you're covering your face, you're not leaving the house. What would we say to them people? Take your chill pill. Halal one. Halal chill pill. Again, it's humans.

And humans are very, very, very complicated beings. Well, do imams expel shit humans if they're Muslim or do they keep forgiving them? Right. So first of all, it's not the job of an imam to forgive anyone. That's the job of Allah. the job of God. And we're told in Islam, it's a door which is always open to be forgiven by God. That doesn't mean you have to pay the price for the consequences of your actions. You will be taken to account.

But we're always told the door is always open, always open. I mean, could that be a possibility as to why Islamic terrorists will just keep... killing at random because they'll just get forgiven consistently. No, the issue with them is they don't think they're doing anything wrong. They think what they're doing is holy and righteous and that they'll be rewarded by God for it.

I hate to see, obviously you don't believe in the next life, but imagine this, the day of judgment, somebody's blown himself up and blown thousands of innocent people up with him. And he's thinking he's going straight to heaven on the day of judgment. He's in for a surprise. And what is the reward scheme in heaven within Islam? Is it having sex with 72 virgins? Be honest. You brought them all today, aren't you?

So the descriptions of heaven, there's descriptions of pleasures of all different kinds. That's the reward. Why has it always got to be excessively perverse, though? Marrying six-year-olds, sleeping with 72 virgins. What about big pomegranates? Are they perverse? What about rivers of honey and wine and milk and meadows and palaces made of rubies and gems?

I know, but we are just focusing on the perversions here. Yeah, exactly. So that's why it's always going to be, like I said before, you find what you look for. Heaven's meant to be a fun place. Here we go then. Here's a question. What could possibly be fun about sleeping with 72-year-old virgins? Sorry, what could possibly be fun about sleeping with 72 virgins?

Breaking 72 young girls in. What's fun about that? No, they're not even humans. It's like a different... Yes. They're a type... I don't know. Avatars up there. Something like that. They're called Hura Al Ain. The coolness of the eye. And did the prophet Muhammad fly to heaven on a wingback horse? Short version is yes. Do you believe that? Yeah. And I believe that Jesus brought the dead back to life. I believe that Moses parted the sea. And this is the thing, as a believer.

We believe in the miracles of the prophets and you don't. And that's cool. I respect that. No obligation on you to believe it. So the 40,000 Islamic terrorists we've got on the MI5 watch list. What do we do with them? Why is there so many of them? And do you condemn them? Yeah, so number one, of course I condemn them. Number two, what do we do with them? That is a really important question. And who's responsible for dealing with them?

Where does that responsibility lie? And I think it's easy for us to say they're responsible, they're them, it's the police, it's the government, it's this lot. But I think it would be more helpful if we all looked. And introspect it a little bit. Let's all of us not just me in the Muslim community But I think even you in your community like what can we do? What can we do to deal with this?

So I'll be honest with you, over the years I've never really, and actually Tommy Robinson in the, I think it was the interview he did with you, he kind of touched upon this and he mentioned that he's noticed he's noticed a correlation between these prominent Islamic extremists. And there always seems to be some connection with the security services.

You know, I can't make any claims which I can't substantiate, but there's some dodgy, dodgy things going on, whether it's entrapment, whether it's like, for example, Shamima Begum, who, you know, she was smuggled into Syria by a Canadian... secret service agent. It's like, what's going on? Why are these Western intelligence services so prominent in these narratives? When I was speaking to the people of Mosul, they were telling me stories as well about how these members of...

of ISIS would go out to the outskirts of the city, they take off the black clothing, they put on military apparel and then jump into a helicopter and be flown away. So there are lots of things going on. What's the solution for it? I think it's easy. I think it's number one, being united against them. Number two, it's about amplifying and promoting positive messages.

So when it comes to ISIS, for example, or these extremists, whatever they want to call themselves, if you're a murderer, you're a murderer. End of. These people, I've been speaking out for years against them, and the accusation is you never speak out. We do all the time, but the media don't give us a platform. Actually, I was happy. You know, when the riots happened, I was pleased. Somebody said to me, you're doing this for the publicity, aren't you?

And do you know what my response was? I said, yes, I am. I want as much publicity as possible because I've been reaching out to members of the far right and Islamophobic movements for years. And we've been eating together, we've been talking together, we've been listening together. And at the end, we don't agree on everything, but actually we realise that there's space for us to be the solution to a lot of these problems together.

And I want this message to go as far and as wide as possible. And I suppose that's one of the reasons why I've accepted your invitation today because I want to give this message out again that I'm telling you. If we can, instead of fighting each other, if we genuinely want to be a solution to a lot of the issues in our society, there's more benefit in becoming allies.

So I can go back to my community and we've got volunteers, we've got people, whatever the issue is, whether, again, grooming, you know, oh, you never speak out about it. I was at the UK Islamic Mission Annual Convention. in Manchester and the bulk of my keynote speech.

to that crowd of people from all over the country was about grooming and the dangers of grooming. But again, it's never given the platform because it's not in line with the narrative. And this is something we have to understand. There are lots of narratives at play. A lot of them are from outside the UK.

They're not from here. A lot of waves are coming over from the States. You know, the MAGA movement, a lot of it is having a ripple effect here. Whether that's good or bad, in all honesty, I think there's a mixture. I think there's a mixture. But the narrative now, even this anti-immigration narrative.

It's just a British version of the waves that are coming over from the States. But that's a whole other topic, isn't it? Let's go back to grooming gangs because we've mentioned it but not gone into it. So in your opinion? Is there a connection between Islam and grooming gangs? It's the opposite. It's the opposite. There is a disconnection between Islam and grooming gangs. And if these lads were...

Muslims, like they claimed to be, and went to the mosque and prayed and read the Quran, they'd realise, so say for example, what are the techniques that they use to lure these girls in? They play with booze, drugs. Let's stay at the booze one, right? Let's open the Quran. It says, Verily, alcohol and gambling are from the handiwork of the devil. So keep away from them.

So why are they using booze? Not only that, we've got a teaching from the Prophet Muhammad that not only are you not allowed to drink alcohol, you're not allowed to buy alcohol or sell alcohol or even sell grapes to somebody if you know they're going to make wine from it.

Okay, if we're going to go what the Quran says, the Quran also says a 56-year-old can have sex with a nine-year-old. It doesn't. Is that the link? It doesn't. It doesn't. That's not mentioned in the Quran. It doesn't say it at all. So is his consummation of the marriage condemned in the Quran?

No, these are legal details which have developed afterwards. Okay, those legal details then are commonly accepted within Islam. So is that the link between young British children getting raped by Pakistani Muslim men? No, it's not. No. So if you want to talk about the Quran, let's go back to the Quran. The Quran tells you... Or just Islam in general. Okay. No, if you're a fornicator... I'll tell you what. In your wildest imagination, as much as you don't want to...

Can you see why people would think there was a link? Right, so Islamic terrorists who blow things up, they think that they're justified by Islam. The groomers who abuse these young girls don't think that. This is what I'm trying to say. And that's why it frustrates me while for some reason in a lot of far right circles, they've come up with this story that, like I said before, the Prophet Muhammad married a young girl.

Therefore, he's a paedophile. Therefore, because he's a role model, other people look up to him and want to be paedophiles and therefore they're grooming young girls. It's not like that. So the terrorists kill people and they think that it's an Islamic virtue. The groomers aren't grooming girls and thinking that's an Islamic virtue. They know it's wrong. They'll hide it from their families even. They'll hide it from their community. Is the problem within the Pakistani community then?

I think, so the stats, I don't have all the records and it's not exclusive to the Pakistani community. But I think, you know, what I've been told is it's not just... the Pakistani community. Sometimes it's people from rural parts of Pakistan whose origins are there and whatever mindset and mentality. But I think that's a dangerous...

I think that's a dangerous road to go down. Not so what the accusation is out there, not so we don't offend the minorities and so therefore we should cover things up. I think the failures ultimately with the grooming, it was a mixture. first of all so it's easy to point the blame game it's very easy to blame this but first and foremost it's the groomers themselves who are disgusting individuals and look what's happened now because of the narrative which is within the far right

They're blaming me and my religion for some dirty little rat who's been doing what he's doing and destroying girls' lives. So they're at blame, first and foremost, the actual groomers themselves. Then you've got the local authorities who were covering this up. Then you've got the law enforcement, the police, who were covering this up.

Then you've got the wider communities who, because one of their relatives was involved, it's like shame and you're sweeping under the carpet and don't mention to anybody. And let's not forget, if we're being honest, Liam, if we're being honest, again, the streets where I was brought up.

The white working-class British community, and this might hurt people, but I've got to say it, they didn't used to be champions of these girls back then when it was happening. They were calling them all kinds of names. P... Shh. They were calling them SLs and... What's the shh? What's that one? I can't say it. Oh, for the podcast. It's going to be bleeps anyway. So P-A-K-I-S-H-A-G-G-E-R-S.

That's what they were calling these young girls. Right. While they were being groomed, while they were being abused, all of a sudden now they're marching on the streets to protect the young girl. If you're honest, back in the day, you were cursing these girls and calling them rubbish just like anybody else. So everyone's let them down.

everybody's let them down ask them if you ever come across with some of these girls who were groomed ask them how did your community treat you during this so we've all failed we've all failed now now the question is do we sit back and attack each other about what we've done and what we haven't done or do we number one try and and and kind of

repair whatever damage has been done. And it's probably never going to be repaired. You know, the girls who were involved with it are going to be scarred for life. I watched that documentary on Channel 4 recently. What were your thoughts on that documentary? Very powerful. Did it make you think there is a problem within my community?

Of course. Of course. I think people just want to hear someone to say, do you know what? You're right. There's a problem. Of course. Of course there is. We've recognised this. We've recognised this years ago. But when you're talking about, so within our community. It's not with the people who are regulars in the mosque, if that makes sense. These are people who are out clubbing and smoking weed anyway. They're not really that closely connected. And so even though it's frustrating.

It's like, how do we even reach out to these people anyway? Well, does a true Muslim follow the Quran to the letter or does a true Muslim take bits and pieces that suits modern day life? Well, I've never heard it be put like that. So the true Muslim takes the Quran with the associated context and it's very dangerous to take things out of context. And that context has also been developed and explained over many centuries. And also, and this is a maxim of Islamic law, is that customs are...

at the forefront of the arriving Islamic rulings. That's a really interesting one. Customs. Customs rule. And this is why I'm saying to you, so if you go to Muslim countries today, you will find that the age of consent in many of these countries is 18 years old. And that's because of their cultural customs. So another example is I once had a discussion with an Islamic judge from Abu Dhabi.

And my question was, I said, you know, in the same way that non-Muslims aren't allowed to visit Mecca, my question, it was a technical legal question. I said, how about if non-Muslims are on an aeroplane flying over? The airspace in Mecca, are they allowed to do that? And he explained to me, he said, no, actually, the prohibition of non-Muslims visiting Mecca is not from the Islamic traditions. It's actually based on the customs of the people.

So this idea that the customs and the culture of the people is important and it's at the forefront of deriving legal rulings. And so if you go to a Muslim country where the age of consent is 18, for example. not at the age of puberty. That will be because the physicians have said maybe boys and girls are much more immature now and they need to develop a little bit more. And it's a big topic.

Two more questions for you. And without veering off using anybody else's... Have you memorised these questions or...? Just two more questions. I'm impressed. I like to do a thorough job. Yeah. Because we've covered a lot of ground. I'm impressed. I'm impressed. And I'm going to say it now so it's not my final message.

This could have gone really bad because there's things that you and me could really clash on massively. But I think we've covered a lot of ground and I'll be very interested to see and hear what people think. But there's final two questions without veering off and saying, what about this person? Talk to your community, Muslims, Muslim men in particular. So the first out of the last two questions, what would you say?

to any radical Islamist that's watching and listening to this podcast? What would your message be to them as an imam? So to think that you need to resort to violence and destruction. and taking people's lives is in contradiction to the message of the Quran. We're told that, and this was actually a message to the children of Israel, and it's mentioned in the Quran.

that whoever takes a life unjustly, it's as if they've taken the lives of the whole of humanity. So when you get taken into account on the day of resurrection in front of God, not only will you be... liable for killing one person or ten people it will have been as if you've killed the whole of humanity and if you have this energy and this passion to do God's work then

The opposite applies because whoever gives life to a person, it's as if they've given lives to the whole of humanity. So instead of going out killing people, why don't you go out and feed people? Why don't you go out and look after people? I'll tell you why. Because it's easier to do the first, isn't it?

it's easy to do the first why not consider the second option which is the option of service and be a servant put your head down stay humble and help other people but yeah it's it's a very very dangerous path and it's it's going to lead you personally nowhere

except to destruction, and never mind the harm you're causing for the rest of society. And then before the final question... I agreed that this wouldn't be a debate or a heated debate and I've fulfilled my side and I'm actually glad I did because I've got to find out more about the workings of your mind rather than just getting...

into a heated debate, the first thing we talk about. I'm still trying to work my mind, aren't I? But Islam itself, would you debate somebody like Tommy Robinson, Douglas Murray or Bob of Speaker's Corner? Debates, no. I like discussions. I'm not a fan of debates. In a debate, you both sat there. It's about me proving I'm right and you're wrong, and you proving you're right and I'm wrong. The one who's best at the debating skills will win, regardless of the topic.

You could get a good debater and get them to convince you that the sky is red and they would have the arguments, they'd have the techniques, they'd have the tactics. I'm not interested in that. I'm interested in discussions, whereas rather it's either you or me. Why don't we both...

kind of navigate together. We might not agree on everything, but at least we're going to be going in the same path. And I think that's what's happened here today. It's not been an argument about who's right and who's wrong. like I've understood a little bit more about you, even though you've been asking the questions, and I hope the same has happened from your side. Tommy Robinson, Douglas Murray, I wouldn't mind having a discussion with Tommy Robinson.

There are a few questions, which I won't mention now, which I'd really like to ask him. And I'd like those to be asked in private as well. It wouldn't be like to... It's not about the spectacle. It's not about the views and the likes and the popularity. That's not the point. Douglas Murray. I don't really have...

Have much time for that guy. And I don't know how the white British working class are accepting him as some kind of thought leader because he's got nothing to do with you and your communities. That's not you being a homophobe, is it? No, no, no, no, no. Not at all. Not at all.

I'm talking about him up there on his ivory chair, speaking down to all these, like pretending to connect with the white working class community. Yeah, whatever, mate. Come and walk around the streets of Liverpool or the streets of... Sheffield or Luton and nah, you'll stick out like a sore thumb. He will if he wears his leather trousers. Thank God I've never seen him in leather trousers. Final question. But just on the Douglas Murray thing. Go on quickly. This is my point.

There's more in common, and I'm telling you, you will have heard your grandparents say it. They're trying to turn us against each other. There's more in common between your average Muslim in this society and your average white British working class person.

than there is with people who are these, Tommy's different because Tommy's from the streets, but this Douglas Murray guy, he's like up there and just trying to play this nasty game. Elon Musk, another one. And yeah, what's wrong with these people? I quite like them. They don't represent us. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. Final question. I'm not scared of Elon. Well, I think most people are. Anyone with billions of pounds, they're probably best to tread with caution. But final question.

Probably the most important, by saying that, they've all been important, but especially current times. But as an imam, what would your final message be to gangs of Muslim men that are raping young children? Fear God. Fear God. You're not just destroying people's lives. Like for you, it might be a moment of pleasure. Whether that's the money you're making or the...

sensation, a moment of pleasure and you're literally destroying somebody's life for the time that they remain on this planet. That's the first one. Secondly, you're destroying your own heart. You're destroying yourself. Thirdly, just look at the narratives now, the popular narratives. You've brought shame, literally brought shame to your people, your community, your society. Even one of the questions today is, is there a particular problem?

with Pakistani culture. Do you know how horrible it feels to hear that, especially after being so close to the Pakistani culture, to the Pakistani community? and knowing the goodness and the contributions they make to society. But now everyone's been tarnished with this. And yeah, just fear God. Simple, simple. And is there anything you'd like to ask me? We've got time for one question. I would like to ask you, what are your plans with Tommy when he comes out? I'm going to make sure he gets...

Well, by the time this goes out, he'll be out. I would have picked him up. I would have took him straight to the barbershop to get his hair cut because it's looking, people will know because they would have seen it by now. His hair's looking pretty wild. And I'm going to make sure he gets to his family safe and sound and just make sure that's where he stays to recalibrate, find his feet, because being put in solitary confinement for seven months is a form of mental torture.

It's not going to be a good place, is it? I don't think so. I don't think so. I hope by the time this goes out, he's in a better place. But I wouldn't want to be locked in a box for seven months. But I'm going to make sure that he's around the right company.

Just let him relax at first, yeah. Relax, make sure he's listening and watching positive stuff and just hoping for the best. He's a good man. I'll tell you what's going to happen. Tommy Robinson is going to be a huge... part now of the national narrative going forward whether it's politics whether it's community cohesion all these different aspects he's going to be a huge part of it uh and he's he's going to have lots of doors and lots of opportunities open and

I'm looking forward to seeing which doors he walks through. And I'm hoping he makes the right choices. And I hope prison has given him that space as well. But then again, it's the mental torture, isn't it, when you're on your own? Yeah, there's one thing given space to think and reflect, and there's other times it's like, you're there, this is torture. Yeah, not nice. Being locked within your own thoughts, I wouldn't want that. I wouldn't wish that on myself. But Adam...

I fully appreciate you coming on today. You didn't have to, you didn't need to, but you did. You trusted me. So this didn't, you know, end up in some big fucking shout off. Yeah, I think we covered a lot of subjects. Whether people agree, disagree. I mean, I'm pretty sure I know what parts they're going to strongly object to. And... This is important, these conversations are being had. So I appreciate you coming on. Likewise. Thanks a lot. Appreciate it, brother. Thank you.