Title: Episode 11 - Third World Country on Mars

or Florida where I can have a small property. I also want to travel and see Europe, Australia, the Philippines, Alaska, and buy a boat and explore the South Pacific for wreckage to recover and sell to antique dealers. I also want to begin another career as a photographer for models and wedding parties. I would like to work in healthcare or a home business where I can work hard, make money,

and succeed in life. Welcome to The Dockerty Gang, a production of I Heart Radio and Katie Studios Episode eleven, Third World Country on Mars. I'm Courtney Armstrong, a crime producer at Katie Studios with Stephanie lie Decker. We've been working with producer Beth Greenwald on The Dougherty Gang for months now. These three siblings have agreed to tell their story for the very first time, each from separate prisons. Lee Grace Docherty is at the Federal Correction Institute Aliceville

in Alabama. Ryan Docherty is in the U S Penitentiary Tucson in Arizona, and Dylan Docherty is currently at the United States Prison of Atlanta in Georgia. The podcast You are about to Hear contains explicit language and mature content that some listeners may find offensive. Let's call to think that I am a good person. Yeah, maybe I've done from my family. Isn't one of them. You know, maybe I would like to change though the way that I was there. But I'll never say I'm sorry for I'm kind.

I'm not I'm not sorry for being a My family marks the tenure anniversary of the Dougherty family Crimes Free. Despite the fact that they're only able to communicate via email, their devotion remains intact. This is producer Beth Greenwald on with Ryan in one of their final interviews. It's not like Good Fellows. We didn't just get like some fresh pudo and fucking some loaves of bread and a couple of bottles of wine. It's not like that. This ship is very fucking uh there and they're kind of off

stir or whatever the fucking word is. And you got like a few clothes. You might have like a pair of shoes, you might have some of your personal photos in a little bit of food, Like you don't really have anything. I really is in like a concrete block room with like a metal locker than painted gun metal gray. Everything is white on gray everywhere except for some blue accent for like where the phones are at and where the doors are at. Right, besides that, the same aryact color.

And it's like it's seen know, there's no windows. Cloths are easily acceptable like that. It's super eutilitarian, Like they're tu bunks in the room that's like I don't know, seven feet by nine feet, right, there's a toilet in the stink and and there you go. You've got like a couple of uniforms that they give you, and give you a pair of boots that are sucking made out of like cardboard and like dead animals. Like it's very minimal. That's all on how you look at it. When's the

last time I had to cook the dinner? I don't have to cook the dinner. Somebody else cooks dinner for me. What's the last time I washed my you know, my clothes. I don't have to. I can put him in the bag and somebody else wash us. So we have to clean the bathroom in the shower, somebody does that. I don't have to sweepelf before or somebody else does that. You know what I mean? I want to a close side and you know, play horseshoes or you know, basketball

or botchy ball or half a dozen other things. I know means that I like being in prison. I'm just saying as far as you kind of shift your reality. And one time I came and I said something to my attorney and she's like, oh, why are you so happy? You know? And I, hell, yeah, I had thirty two

years in Colorado. This is my federal attorney. And you know, I'm looking at a you know, a crazy sent spare with the beds, and I was like, well, you know, I said, you know, I focused on what I do have, not on you know, and she's like, well, what else you don't have? And I was like, well, if I focused all the things I didn't have, I'm ansoes go back to the unit. And you know, tied sheet around the rail and jump over. Here's Lee Grace giving her take on life in prison. The first year is really

hard because you're a gap thing. But once you adapt and you can see things and your vision becomes clear about how people really are and how the officers really aren't, how the unit team really are, and the people that work in the prison system, everything gets so much worse because you see the reality, you see the honesty. So I've been here about eight, eight or nine years. She's I need to count, but I think eight years. And where were you before that? I was in Hazelton, a

small within prison in West Virginia. It's a federal facility. Well, I mean they're both federal facilities, but I've been in I was in county before that, so that causes a lot of confusion. State and said are completely different type of prison. Ryan is having a harder go of it in prison. But I ended up doing timing about six different county jails in Georgia. Why are they when they heard that? Like, I was having a hard out time in making because making took me from in bib County jail.

There's a murder every time they run wrecked there like somebody dies, somebody gets stabbed at death. Like it's more violent than any of the prisons I've ever been to. It's like rats all over the floor and cockroaches, and you'd be lucky if you get a mattress, Like there's no food. It took me from two hundred thirty seven pounds to a hundred and fifty eight pounds and a little less than six months, so you do the math. Marshall came and picked me up and didn't recognize me.

He's like, what the funk happened? And I told him it was like, bro, listen, when I get in the van with you right now, y'all are gonna have to beat the funk out of me and taste for me in order to get me to go back into that county jail. Ryan is in protective custody at his prison due to being charged with sending a minor harmful information and loud moss of his conduct. It was the original

case that tipped off the entire crime spree. The yard where I'm out currently is like splits, like seventy job molesters and other either gang dropout, rat, hit the wrong person, bad luck, drug that you know, take pick or choose. But anyways, right you cut it, you're not good you know, and you're not in good standing, so you end up here. And this is like the bottom of the barrel. So like I look at these people would disdain because the ones that like, let's call the ones that like raped

their two year old daughter. You know, I think they should burn in hell. But you know, it's not my place to judge or punish them, like that's that's not my deal. And then for me at like a regular yard, somebody would look at me for fucking a fifteen year old stick when I was eighteen, and it's the same as they would look at one of these people that suck the ju world, you know, when they were forty. It doesn't there's no differentiation in their eyes. I mean

in the beginning, you're a good looking guys. You get into jail, it's twenty something years old. Are you protecting at all in anyway? But no, No, it's predatory as ship. Let's protect your own asshole with a knife forget raped. I mean it's one of the two. Lee Grace has their own opinion of the women's prison. These are women that have fat on their asses and couches all day, you know, selling drugs out of their out of their basement.

These aren't athletic, strong, strapping women from Alaska. These are fat, overweight people from the South, so they're not good fighters. Men can kill somebody and women can't. Well, it would take a lot for somebody a woman. There's not very much violence. Women are all bullshit and talk and physically they're weak, so they can't. It's hard for them to

kill somebody. This call is from a federal prison. Men can just snap your neck or you know, stabby in the artery and just you know, rip your heart out. So women don't really fight with weapons and men do. So once you get a shank in your hand, it's

really easy to flip somebody's throat. Meanwhile, Ryan is living in fear, like there's been a few stabbings recently, and there's been a few people hitting the head with locks, and there's been a few people kicked in the head with boots, and like, the majority of that violence is either because of gay stuff or people owing money, or just people not wanting to be here. That's steered the conversation with Ryan to work. But what about the people then you know the other prisoners that work, do they

make a wage that volunteer based? How does that work? It's volunteer based. It's work if you want to. They're trying to pay the dudes like eighteen dollars months to clean ten showers twice a day, five days a week, right, and it's like you gotta get in there and you gotta scrub, and like people are nasty. There's like jizz or fucking used razors or like a pubic care ball the size of a raccoon in the corner. It's just agreed. Just man, here's Dylan talking about his day to day life.

I just changed jobs. You know. I used to work on the rack yard. Was king water keg build up the water kigs, and I know that's something like wow, well, I mean what is that? You know, when you have five people in the yard and there's you know, ten ten gallon kigs push at least three Olympic swimming pools of water up that girl in the six years that I've been out there, so I recently went to facilities.

Thank you all the plumbing, electrical. If you realize that the prison is, you know, the maintenantonent is kept up by the you know, the inmate population. We didn't work, they couldn't keep us locked up. But but I went to facilities that Bunny might got me a job down there. It's weirdy one way that, you know, maintaining the cage that keeps me, but it also gives me a chance to do stuff that I used to do on the

street and feel productive. Here's beout speaking with Ryan about how different events in his life have shaped to my the person. Let me ask you something. When you look at this big picture, is there a moment that if things like just a little differently, this wouldn't have been the story? Oh man, you know what. Yeah, there's pivot points in everyone's life. There's big watershed moments, right and

I guess the first one is the youngest one. When I was a kid and my father died, you know, seven years old, fam right then and there, that's a big momentum the car accident where I broke my neck and I smashed my head and I have a dramatic brain injury from that. Um. That's another one that's kind of where I fell in love with opiates, from sucking breaking my back and having to take oxycotton and morphine and ship because my back hurt. And then uh, let's

see what else here, Oh, when my sister died. That was a vicious one because man, if you want to talk about a completely different person, that's where it felt like I developed two separate personalities that go on in my head at any given time. While Ryan remembers his pain, Dylan tries to remain positive. You know a lot of people big they you know, they have a lot of regrets and and and the whole you know, everything is it's a negative. And it does not for you know,

it's just not me. And so I don't really dwell on the situation a lot. And when I really sit down and think about it, sometimes it does kind of pluck out my heart stream. Annie Armstrung me out as a psychotherapist who has followed the Dougherty story closely. More adverse experience as a kid has loss of a parent, substance abuse in the home, separation, you know of siblings,

those things all would be considered adverse experiences. So the higher doses of adversity, they do affect the pleasure and reward center of the brain. And what happens is the person needs a higher dose of whatever that pleasure stimulant is in order to feel pleasure, and so people who have higher amounts of adverse childhood experiences are way more

likely to be involved in risky behavior. In one of her last interviews with Lee, Grace's attorney Patrick McCarville, that spoke with him about Marfan syndrome, the genetic cart disorder that runs in the Dougherty family, and how that may have affected her family's choices in life. You know, they lost dead, they lost sister both to Marfan syndrome. You know, at least in your conversation with Lee, did she feel like she didn't ever longed to live or she you know,

was that a huge factor in her actions? Absolutely? I think the night that they hatched this plan, I believe they discussed that they didn't believe that they would live as long as most people because of that hereditary disease, and that was a factor in what caused them to do these crimes. They were going to get out of Dodge and go live happily ever after together as a family with what all time they thought they had left. Sean McEwan is a filmmaker who wrote and directed a

feature film about the Doughertyes. He's also a friend to the trio. I think what strikes me at this point, kind of revisiting the story and kind of seeing it through a lens of the perspective of a decade later, is that I vacillate between two truths. One is the tragedy that they didn't accomplish their objective. While I'm very

glad no one got injured and could have. But the tragedy that, apparently and everything that they say is all about the fact that they just wanted to be together and be safe and get the heck out of Dodge and try to forge this new life and that didn't happen. And then yet and maybe I'm just trying to be the total optimist here in some sense, but they they still have this bond. That bond is stronger than ever.

You can hear it, and the way they retell the stories you can hear it, and how strong the feelings are toward each other. So in spite of it all, nothing could separate them. They are still figuratively still together. Their ten years into their sentences, but they've done thirty years. That's how they think of the others. There that intertwined that when you add it up, that's thirty years of them all being apart, not spending time together, you know.

And by the some of this, it's years of that, you know, when you compound it like that, And I think that's what's so interesting. Also, they're not going to have that opportunity to really beating each other's lives, and that's all they really ever wanted. We're going to take a quick break here. We'll be back in a moment. Although the docerty has pled their cases, the Florida courts have not settled with Dylan and Lee. Grace. Ryan is the only one of the siblings who are a you

play out in Florida. Here's Beth speaking with Dylan. This call was from the federal prison. This call, it's from Dylan family. You may begin speaking now, Hey, how are you doing. I'm in a really bad mood now, not just kind of a legal letter from my new attorney that I have in Florida, and um, I don't know what is going on down there, but yeah, what what does the letter say? Well, I've had to learn that apparently much time so I could start until I get

this case resolved. And so like, I don't know, I was on any impression that they would it would you know, I would start from the moment that I was InCAR story would just come up on ten years now. So he's saying that I'm not I get creative for the time that I've served already, which is just unacceptable because it you know, forty years since. So only they they're offered me with a twenty five year minimal menatory with another fifteen years recurrent want to I want to play

charged second secondary to the attempted murder police officers. So uh yeah, I just just uh, I don't know. It was crazy. Dylan has been serving his sentences concurrently, and this letter revealed that he may face even more time in Florida. But the real question is why did it take so long? Ten years later they're deciding to do this, Well, I mean ten years, they haven't done anything. They just sort of they have. They never came to get me,

They never you know what I mean. They just whenever I go to a new institution, they relodge a detainer against me. And it's just like, I don't know, they were just waiting for waiting for me to get out and then have the State troopers come quickly up after serve you know, thirty years in the FEDS or you know,

I don't know, it's really weird. I just emailed my brother and so I got that and asked him if they have started his time in two thousand and eleven or if that is indeed what they did, because he didn't he didn't get the case result until two thousand and fourteen. But it's definitely, you know, it's not good news. How long do you have this lawyer I'm working on this,

he just started. I just kind of you know, because I was I was wanting to get this all resolved before all these other things, you know, work out, and I just want to kind of wanted it behind me and you know, a bow tied on it, and then I could have you know, a day and uh, you know, and and start working towards that, you know, the definitive day. You know. It's definitely disheartening because if that's true, that's true,

I I'm I have to take it a trial. I'm not gonna you know what I mean, she just if nothing shakes out with my stay cake and then you're talking to ten ten years, it's dead time. It's kind of just so it's you know, that just that puts me at you know, six eight seventy years old. Do we know we we don't know if Lee Grace that a letter as well? Right, talk to her, you know what I mean, letter show explain to you what her attorneys told her. She said that her attorney back, she

had so hard. You're up there and you know, sucking a lask her, you know, moth Ambique and we really you know, we don't have a mule train to come get you. Just you know, I don't know, I don't understand why it's so hard. You know, I mean I've been in the same institution for uh seven years or six years, uh probably you know, uh not even three

miles from the support state line, you know what I mean. Uh, if this was a big deal to them, and my my whole mindset on it was let it sit and that the that the you know, it was a rolling boil, the oil it boiled over on the stove and it was you know, I was just like, well, let's just let it kind of simmered down, and you know what I mean, I can go down there and and can get taken care of, you know, seven or eight, nine, ten years and you know, maybe to be halfway forgotten

and people won't you know, you know, I felt like time was you know, time heals all wounds or whatever. Dylan's new attorney, the man who sent him the letter was recommended by a fellow inmate. The first thing he opens up with is is, you know, I built a half hower for this, and I build a half power for that. And I was over here for fifteen minutes

and I was over there for forty five minutes. So I mean he's opened up with his his breakdown on the building and you know, and says that, you know, my so and so is gonna, you know, is takeing care of the charges. And you know it's funny Kobe Becker, who I have all the admiration in respect for, and I can't thank her enough. You know, she was more than willing to do it. She said, it's only on her fifty hours from her to get her federal stamp for the Middle District of Georgia or whatever the hell

it was. And you know, I looking at her as the first time mom, I was, I was working that selfish and I said, no, I'm sure they'll give me a great attorney, and they gave me a sorry, worthless attorney. And I wish I had been selfish and told her, yeah, I want you to be all want to represent me the whole way. It's probably not too late to do that. Well, I mean, if you speak to her, I need all the help I can get, apparently, because this is just I mean, this guy's he's not really a I mean

need a criminal attorney. It says that on his letter head here, but it's first says a personal injury and

then criminal defense and then certified me came. Have you reached out to Kobe at to say, no, you just just got the information from you last and I'm gonna go up here and get it on the computer tonight, and trying to shoot her, Uh it's an email or I'm really gonna give on my counselor trying to give it A couple of attorney calls this week to where I can get the bottom is that's reached out to Kobe Becker, Dylan's lawyer from Colorado, to see if she

could offer Dylan any advice. Is it normal for what's happening with Florida rearing its headed this way? I don't know that I would associate anything with Florida and the

criminal justice system is being quote unquote normal. Um. But what I can say is that what happens at the state level is if there is a federal case, we basically say, so these charges have always been in existence is by understanding in Florida, and so they didn't They had already charged him as what my understanding is, but they never brought him there because you know, we kind of I don't use the term joke, but we always sort of off handedly comment like once our clients go

in the federal system, they're sort of lost and we don't we can never get them back. And so I don't know why Florida is coming up now other than he could be. I think he's nearing the halfway point of his sentence, even with good time and earn time.

I actually have contacted some of my friends in the Florida area to try to find him a criminal defense attorney in his county, and I'm thankful to know so many people, so I'm hoping to get him somebody that can do something better than what the offer is there now, because that's just ridiculous and they're actually asking for it. To be served consecutive. I think my understanding is to

the federal system, and that's just completely assent. Is there any opportunity, I mean, with good behavior and everything else in a Florida isn't what's the earliest he could get out, even with good time and earned time, He'd have to serve of his sentence before his paro eligible. And I think that's right in the federal system. In the state

of Colorado at seventy five percent. But because our prisons are so overcrowded here in Colorado, the state legislature enacted a new law I believe that went into effect last year twenty and that law basically says that the Department of Corrections can determine despite the statue providing for sev the Department of Corrections is actually the ones that can determine when their parole eligible through time, comp etcetera. So a lot of our seventy five percent statutory sentences are

going down to sixty or fifty percent. Here again, is still maker Shawn McEwen speaking with Beth. You met them eight years ago. You see a difference in them now. I mean when you start talking, they were two years into this prison sentence. Is there a big difference in them? Is it's the same. Do they seem hopeful? Do they

seem more hopeless? Yeah? I see a big difference. You know, as far as the difference in how they are now compared to how they were years ago, I think there was you know, I felt like I was talking to kids still. Again, this is from my perspective, whereas now I feel like they have matured, they have aged, and with that has come wisdom and perspective, and they're cleaner

figuratively and literally. So with that, I think they have clarity of mind and there is remorse for what they did in the decisions that they don't think they had a clear understanding of what this time stretcher really meant. I mean, I think when you talk to somebody who's young, who's in their late late teens, early twenties, and you talk about like, oh, the next ten years, the next twenty years, that does sound like a lifetime to them, but they don't really get it. This again, is Lee

Grace on her life behind bars? Well, prison is is like this. It is basically a warehouse. You know, you have your room, you have your door, you have your locker, it's just a big storage facility where you just sit in the same unit pretty much all day long, all night long, and you just do your time day for day. And they do have a prescription till line. You know that you go and get your pill line medications. But are any of these medications very good? No, they are

the we call them psychments. Basically, they are a lot of medications that you cannot overdoes on medications you really can't abuse. It's a lot of Prozac, a lot of Zoloff, a lot of sarah quill or transdone or Laville, drugs that make you sleep, drugs that make you gain weight. Here's Ryan on how prison has changed him. Yeah, it's

just changed me funnally, fundamentally as a person. You know, at my core, I'm still a really sweet, amenable guy, right, but a lot of that and I don't know if it's just from youth or whatever, but just got scrubbed out of me. It's like I don't got that anymore.

My patience level is some ship and then I don't know, you just learned that, like violence is really one of the few ways to really communicate your point in here, and like it's just have been a really nice thing that, like, I haven't had to do anything in a few years, so that's been nice. But it's it's still is prison. This is Dylan on some things he's learned in prison. It's like a third World country if there was the Third World country on Mars. It's a weird little micro

constantly living. There's this whole social structure. I've learned a lot since I've been here. I've learned a lot about the people. He amplifies that you were before you came to prison. When you come to prison, I think it brings out whatever character qualities you had, It brings those out poll more. You know, when Beth last spoke with Dylan, he was in the Shoe, which is the special housing

unit within the prison. There was one story that you were in the shoe for some sort of altercation with your cell mate, and then there was another one that you weren't feeling well. No, no, no, neither neither to evolve. I'm good, I am getting a transfer, I am in the shoe, but no, I'm fine. Things good. I can only imagine when Lee Race told you sometimes she's a sucking Indian. I found out pretty quick quick where you went I just didn't understand why, and then wanted to

make sure you're okay because there was like a health question. Yeah, yeah, I thought I fell getting out of rack. I have just scarred by my eye right now, cossion. I went to the hospital, Alpi Medical, to the street. But did they spells are gone. I'm good. I don't have me bringing in my ear anymore. So I'm just you know, was just you know, lateen, laten and concussion issues and

they're go gone. Towards the end of their final interview, Beth asked Dylan about his feelings of loyalty towards his family. There's nothing wrong with putting your loved ones before other people. You know, a lot of people are gonna, you know, I think that's gonna like scratch their ear, and that's the politically incorrect thing to say. But if I mean, a woman should care about hurt children more than some random person, and individual person should care about their family

more than just some random person. And that's that's my person. But yeah, I'm all right. Uh, is there anything to do for you? Yeah, I've come open to do are so I can have some fresh air. You know, it's it's a part of prison, you know, and there's the show is a real fucked up spot. You know, you just it's it's a prison within a prison, and you really have you have absolutely nothing. Ryan is just as devoted to family, and it becomes even more apparent when

he speaks about his now ten year old son. I've just drilled it into into him unmercifully, along with the fact that I love and I'm proud of him everything that he does, but that you know, you want to get a good education because there is a big difference between doing what you want to do and doing what you have to do. And people that don't have a good education have limited options. It's not that you can't succeed without an education, because you can't, it's just becomes

It's just it keeps options open. It's always nice in life when you have options. It seems like you're full on parenting from where you are trying to give him what I was missing, and I'm trying to give him everything I knew when I was twenty by the time he's done. That's your job as a parent to try and protect and look out for your kids, and like I fail miserably at it because I'm not there. The most important thing about being a parent is being rather

than being there, and I'm not physically there. Here's executive producer Joseph Morgan. When you see images of a child, as that child grows, you're not a part of that timeline. You're not gonna soothe them when they're crying at night. You're not gonna feed them. You're not gonna be there to put the bike together that you want to convince them at Santa Claus bro You're not gonna be there for all that. You're not gonna be there to see your your mama age out. And that's tragic. That's truly

the tragedy. Let's stop here for another quick break. We'll be back at a moment. The Dougherty siblings are not permitted to make outgoing calls to one another. They can only communicate through letters, emails and through this podcast. Here stockerty mother, Barbara Belle. I've had ten years and have never had my say. Not once in ten years has anyone asked me what happened my opinion. So I have had ten years to think about what I want to say about my children, and I want to say three things.

Number One, they never tried to harm anyone. They just wanted to get away. They were all sharpshooters, So if they had really tried to kill anyone, that person would be dead. They did not kill anyone. Number Two, League Race, Dylan and Ryan are not damaged goods. They are good, caring, decent people who got all worked up in the middle of the night with the threat of Ryan going to prison. They felt they couldn't spare another family member lost to

death or prison. So with the threat of family annihilation moving over them, they egged each other on and once they got started, its snowballs and they felt they couldn't turn back. And number three, they are different people now. They regret what they did and they need to be out here making a valuable contribution to society instead of costing the taxpayers a hundred dollars a day each to keep them in federal housing. And I guess that's about

all I have to say. Dylan and Lee Grace have open cases in the Florida courts and they may face more time. Lee Grace is currently thirty nine ineligible for parole. In Ryan wanted me tell you that he loves you, Okay, tell him I love him. She loved you, yes you oh yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, And I told you to tell her the same thing. Dylan is currently thirty six and eligible for parole. In I might be talking to

like Grace later, do you already tell or anything? I just tell her, I said, I love her and what she already knows. But just tell her, I said, what's up? And I hope she's doing good. And Ryan is thirty one and eligible for parole. Let's just be real, right between you and me. I ruined their lives and they would have been much better off without me and them, right had I not been born, or had I not

involved them, or had I not caused that situation. You know, it's just some things just are what they are, no matter how dressed, how dressed up you make it. You know, I ruined my brother and sister's life and they don't deserve to be there and not gladly take like a death penalty for them to go home. Right now, I love them dearly. These were kids who, in a way we're part of a system, and their perception was the system failed them, And we can look at it now

and maybe realize that there is truth in that. You look back and you sit in judgment of the people that were in charge, not so much law enforcement, but corrections, I think probation those individuals. You have one sparkly moment in tom where you can exercise something that's a beautiful thing. It's called mercy. For me, the one thing that I would want people to take away from the story is and some of it was responsible for this with their choices,

and some of it was truly circumstance. More on that next time. If you're over eighteen years old and want to see pictures of Lee Grace and Ryan Dougherty or find their addresses to write them in prison, go to our instagram at Katie Underscore Studios. If you're enjoying this podcast, please listen and subscribe to Crazy in Love, Katie Studio's latest true crime podcast. The Dougherty Gang is executive produced by Stephanie lie Decker and me Courtney Armstrong, along with

Beth Greenwald, Sean McEwen, and Joseph Morgan. Editing and sound design is by Jeff Twa, additional producing by Chris Graves and Jeff Shane. The Docortor Gang is a production of I Heart Radio and Katie Studios. For more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.