Title: Episode 10 - Time & Pressure

could do this? I'm still asking myself in silence to this day. I am still trying to figure out this person, another side of me. She lives there still. Welcome to The Doctor Gang, a production of I Heart Radio and Katie Studios episode ten Time and Pressure. I'm Courtney Armstrong, a crime producer at Katie Studios with Stephanie Lidecker. We've been working with producer Beth Greenwald on The Docherty Gang

for months now. These three siblings have agreed to tell their story for the very first time, each from separate prisons. Lee Grace Docherty is at the Federal Correction Institute Aliceville in Alabama. Ryan Docherty is in the U S Penitentiary Tucson in Arizona, and Dylan Docherty is currently at the United States Prison of Atlanta in Georgia. Prison people are so quick to judge other people when they commit crimes.

They don't know the reason behind why you're committeing that crime, and I think that's a big problem in the justice system. If there's a certain reason why you are doing something, then that needs to be taken into account and the effects of a crime of why you actually did that. Three of the FBI's US wanted criminals that the Dougherty siblings were not behind bars in Colorado after an eight day crime spree beginning in Florida that ended with a

second police shootout. They were about to face the judge. On October thirty one, two thousand eleven, twenty year old League Race pled not guilty to charges stemming from a high speed chase in Waltzenburg, Colorado. Here'sly Grace's attorney, Patrick mccarbyl It looked like we were going to go to trial in the trial date was set to commence February. My sense was our judge, Judge A Pell, was really pressuring council in the District Attorney's office to settle these cases.

You know, my senili He didn't want the circuits that would come with a trial with so much media attention. One trooper spoke out on the local news about Dylan's capture and some of his facts that were wrong. The third brother, who was still at the car trying to get into his trunk, who who I focused on the first. We think he was trying to get to the possibly even get to the A K forty seven that was in the trunk. We gave him a lot of commands. He eventually, I think when he saw all of us,

gave up and lay down on the ground. I covered him while of Astonbury PD officer handcuffed him in searching, and then I went and joined the other troopers to search for the Brotherhood advent. Here again is Lee Grace's attorney,

Patrick MCCARBYLL. There were a lot of press conferences and a lot of discussion about the case, and of course the first thing I did is Lead Grace's attorney was asked for a gag order so that nobody could talk about this case and that we could keep information about the case out of the media, so that I could preserve a fair jury pool in the event that we would go to a jury trial, and of course that didn't last very long. There many of the officers in

state patrolmen involved perceived awards, gave speeches. I asked our judge to hold them and contend, and and it was denied. Producer Beth Greenwald spoke with Ryan. There was metal of valor handed out to the Colorado Police and also the citizens who chased after you. The Colorado police, some of

them were like some whole dirty gass cops. The statements that you make in the placement that you're at where you're like, oh, well, we've seen for sure, you know the sister in the back and she was actuating the trigger of the gun. It's like, really, you saw somebody in a vehicle moving a hundred forty miles an hour actuating a trigger mechanism from a hundred meters plus, and then you were dumb enough with all your training that

you received to park your car. It's station yourself in a crossfire situation because you're saying, well, we're worried for our lives that they're gonna shoot us, so you're gonna have to shoot back. Right, but you're gonna be dumb enough to station yourself at a direct crossfire where if you missed me a vehicle moving on a a hundred forty and you're like a hundred meters or fifty away from the road, you're gonna shoot your fucking fellow officer. Well,

Ryan was discussing what he saw as bad policing. Some officers, like former Trooper Mark Bunetto, were recognized for their valor here he is. It's a great honor, right, It's not something that they just hand out, you know. There's very few recipients of it, and during the the whole history of the patrol, you know, so it was kind of it's kind of a big deal, you know. I had a big ceremony and everybody, you know, and the chief hands them out, you know, and yeah, so it was

kind of cool. I got I got quite a few. I got that award and was also given the hundred Club of Denver. I got an award from them. I don't know why it was. I guess because I was the lead car or in the pursuit. Authorities seemed relieved to have finally apprehended the Doughertys, and there was no hesitation to put them on public display, especially in front of the media. Dylan's attorney, Kobe Becker, spoke with Beth.

I believe it was in Colorado, um where at some point they were escorted out of a building and they were you know, I think this might have been it was either Dylan and Lee Grace or Ryan and Lee Grace, but they're you know, shackled together, and they were kind of let out a side door in front of the

media by a guy holding a machine gun. Yeah, we had a huge fight about that that it's parading because in WALLI Senburg, I think it's the same way now that the courthouse is closer, and I don't know what they're doing, but the courthouse was across the street from the jail and there was no real way to get inmates in secretly, like most jails have the tunnels that lead to the courthouse or whatever, but they didn't have

a system like that, and so everyone was pissed. They fired at police officers, and Willsonburg fired at police officers from Fubblo fired at police officers, you know, FBI officers. So it was all just for show and Wall Senburg because they're so small. I wanted to be on the map. Here's Dylan. I think we just kind of got used to that. That was the whole dog and Tony Joe, if you'll if you can call it that, uh, you know, they they, I will say the Sheriff's apartment in Colorado

was very professional. They were always polite. I think they were you know, obviously did they said, sheriff didn't wake up and be like, oh, maybe the back of you know, crash here on my front doorstep tomorrow. Of course Saily, we did. And I think he didn't dealt with it the best way that he could, and I think he did a good job of that was, like I said, was always respectful to me. It was always you know, Curtis obviously couldn't let me go. Here again is Lee

Grace's attorney, Patrick McCarville. This is perhaps one of the smallest county jails in the state. There's three pods. Two pods hold males, one holds females. The control center just announces to an inmate you have an attorney visit, and they remotely unlocked the doors and so Lee grades would walk go through several secure doors before she gets to what is called the judicial room to room about twelve feet by twelve feet with a desk and two chairs.

And she's not shackled, nor is any of the inmates when they meet with attorneys, and at the time she was still recovering from the gunshot in her leg. Well, the attorneys figured out how to proceed with their cases. Dylan had another idea here again as Dylan's attorney Kobe Becker, and let me ask you this. I know when he was being held in Colorado, I mean there wasn't an incident where he and was planning on trying to break out. This was before he was arraigned, I believe, Yeah, yeah,

this is he's been captured. He's in jail. I think that at this point Lee Grace was in the same jailman in the female prison. Yeah, they were big held in Bubble County for a bit when this happened. Were you his representation? I was not. No. And when you heard about that, what did you think? I think it's the same thing, right, I mean they have been on this running away, getaway kind of thing, and so it was sort of hard for the course. And then after

meeting Dylan, it made sense. You know, how am I going to get myself out of this situation, right, I mean that's how he lived his whole life, like things are bad? How am I going to get out of this situation? A jail cell search comes up Big Guess. Twenty six year old Dylan Dougherty is caught with an eight inch knife, mane up of metal, and a farewell letter addressed to the FBI and Werfino County Jail. Former

neighbor Pastor Clanton recalls Dylan's farewell. Dylan had left a note saying, you got me, but I'm out of here, you know, kind of with humor, like the the accommodations are nice, but I gotta go. I gotta get my sister, you know. And he tried to escape to get out of the men's prison, to go to the women's prison to get his sister out, like he's gonna break her out.

So their actions we're, like most people think, unbelievable. According to their rest affid David, it reads, I've enjoyed staying here, so don't take any of this personal. Dylan's plan was to escape through a hatch door that has access to the plumbing he had already tampered with the lock, tore out the insulation and climbed up to the ceiling. Footprints show he made it to the female cells and slipped a letter to his sister Lee raised Dougherty, telling her

to get her belongings together. Dylan was going to go through the ceiling of the control room, dropped down and tie up the staff, taking their keys and walking out to freedom. I didn't know my brother Dylan how smart he is, and he's very widely. You know, Dylan is the type of think her agency side of the box, and I think when you get somebody a certain step back, his only way to do is at rack is to

actually overcome it. So you know, if you give Dylan even a little bit of space or a little bit of time, he can think up a solution to anything. And that's just the way you Dylan is. He's a very all thinker, and he's a very strong and physically so if you put him in a box, he's gonna find a way out of that box. If that means destroying the box, if that means setting the box on fire, if that means climbing up the wall to like Spider Man,

he's gonna do it. When you're sitting there and all you have is time and pressure, and when you're in that situation, you're just you're in stink. So you look for, you know, a way to survive in a better situation, and obviously escaping from you know, being locked up is one of those, you know methods. I mean, how did I just sign like I said? I mean, I just did the money. I want to be there. I don want to do the time, you know, I didn't want

to do a fire light dying in prison. And the actual mechanics of it were relatively simple that you're as very small as you all know. You know, the staff was kind of a little uh, I guess lack of daisical, you could say. But of course they changed a lot of things after that incident happened. Did you make it over to lead Race at any time? Yeah, yeah, I did. I was in the bed. I'm sure she remembers, as she was setting on the table watching TV, and you know,

I was just likely race. You know, like how whispered to the van and she was like sort of startled because she's hearing my voice and she thought maybe she was It was like, I don't know what, I don't know what she thought it was, but you know, she started to crying. I was like, you know, he stopped crying. You know what I mean? I said, you know, it was just I said, it kind of like joggling. I was like, I said, I said, are you ready to go? You know? I said you want to? I said, do

you want to leave here? Pretty much a rhetorical question, but you know, and she was of course, was like, he was like, yeah, he actually was. He he had And I'm not laughing because it's funny or I'm I'm making light of the situation. If you give him enough time, he has enough energy, he's gonna find a way to escape. So I think that when he was making those plans, it was in his right stand line and he was

going to escape. Now, whether or not he knew what was going to happen after we actually escaped, I don't know, but I do you know that he hadn't been playned. In effect, the media spread news about the jail break. Jail officials claimed that they foiled an escape attempt masterminded by Dylan Doherty. Avadan Mileski is a psychologist who specializes in sibling relationships. He did not treat the Dougherties, but followed their case closely. Here he is speaking with Beth.

Were you aware that Dylan tried to break out of jail with Lee Grace. He wrote a little letter to Lead Grace with information of how they're going to get out. That's just another piece of this puzzle. Were even once they're separate, they're not giving up. We need to get back together and we're going to help each other. They had found his footpints through the wall because he had worked in construction through where the pipes were, and they had found his shoeprint um he had made it to

the women's prison. It's exceptional. Yeah, I think it speaks to first of all Dylan's intellect and his abilities, but ultimately he did it. Once again, I need to save my siblings. That was driving him. It's just once again that one constant thread throughout this entire story is that the healing power of the civil relationship. We're going to take a quick break here, we'll be back in a moment. A few weeks after Dylan's failed escape, the siblings all

entered plea agreements. Colorado prosecutors dropped the multiple counts of attempted second degree murder. Here's the Grace's attorney, Patrick McCarville in Colorado lead led to three felonies attempted assault in the first degree on a peace officer and two counts of felony menacing, which is essentially pointing a weapon at a police officer. I believe in Lee Grace's plea agreements.

At my insistence, she played it under a complicity theory, meaning that she aided and embedded her brothers in the commission of these crimes, but that she did not commit these crimes herself, and that was a subject of much litigation as we thought the cads who was the one in the back seat of the subar ruined Presa that was firing the gun at the pursuing law enforcement officers. Here again is Dylan's attorney, Kobe Becker. We went back

and forth about his plea agreement. I think we try to get something less, but ultimately, at the end of the day, he was like, you know, if this is what it is, this is what it is, and we'll just have to deal with it. And that's where he really differed from his brother and sister. I remember, because his brother was very scared, you know, he was obviously younger, but he was very scared and the stuff he was

facing was much force or just in general. Lee Grace was quiet, She would not talk very much, but Dylan wasn't. He was remorseful for the things that he did, but he was never like this is the end of my life, if that makes sense. They were originally facing a total of seventy three charges, including five counts of attempted murder in the second degree, but they made a plea deal with the court on April. Lea, Grace, Dylan, and Ryan had the opportunity to address the court before sentencing. I

did not set out harm anyone. My only thought was to get my brother safely to another country and help him start a new life. Contrary a lot of people's relief, I never intendantier, I never tried to I never wanted to hurt anybody. It is true that I had had a desperation, and I'm I'm sorry for it, the shortes that I made. I wish, I wish I've done all

things differently. I don't know really what things differently I have done, but I truly I'm sorry to to anybody that was involved, the police officers, any innocent bystoners that could have been hurt, and the actions that I did take are not to my character. I wasn't thinking, I wasn't thinking properly, wasn't thinking with the normal lindset that I have, And there's nothing I can do to change those I's just I just wish that the court would

look at me, get the person. That's That's pretty much all I have to say, your honor, and I'm generally workful for what I happened. I'm sorry for my rather nowable the almost sixty when he gets out, and my sister. I am sorry for my life. And so Judge Claude Apple had the final word. This is not Robin Hood. This is just three D really stupid singing danger a lot of people's lives, and help you find some value

and the rest of your life. Ryan received a sentence of eighteen years in prison after pleading guilty to five counts of menacing. Lee Grace got twenty four years for one count of attempted first degree assault and two counts of felony menacing. Dylan received the maximum sentence of thirty two years for first degree assault. Menacing refers to conduct that places another in danger or fear of injury or death.

Here's Beth with Lee Grace. Were you guys punished for what could have happened or were you punished for what did happened? No, I definitely think we were punished for what possibly could have happened. And I understand that there were as police officers, there was lives in jeopardy that I do understand, and for that, I'm very sorry. I'm very You cannot apologize and just take any of that back. Once an act has been committed, you can't retract it.

Dylan stayed positive and some of the praises of his attorney, Kobe Becker, who I have all the admiration in respect for and I can't thank her enough. This call was from the federal prison. She was a bulldog and a shark and a lady all at the same time. And I never saw her hands shaken with a paper in her hand. That woman has got ice water in her veins when it comes to that courtroom. But she was

pregnant while she was representing me. Dry mother, Barbara Bell, says she was never asked to participate in her children's defense. I was never deposed and I was never even attempted to become never asked to become involved to my children's defense in any way, shape or form, except for compiling extensive psychiatric medical records for my daughter Lee Grace and

mailing them to one of her attorneys. I did all that legwork myself, but it was never brought up at trial nor well there was no trial, it was never brought up during sentencing, and I was never included for I was never deposed or never given an opportunity to speak out on my children's behalf by any of their attorneys.

A lot of people don't realize you can still have witnesses testify even if a plea deal is agreed upon and sign it doesn't it's not all or nothing trial and you get to tell your story or plea agreement and you shut up. No, you are allowed to have the defense attorneys can call people that could mitigate sentencing.

Patrick McCarville remembers meeting Barbara Belle. I was able to meet her mother at least once when she flew out to Colorado, but my investigator and I did a pretty deep dive into her family dynamic in anticipation of presenting a mitigation package to the district attorney or to the court at sentencing that her upbringing was insufficient and that, you know, therefore maybe she should get some leniency, that she never really had a chance in life, and that

fell on deaf ears to some extent. Yes, Attorney Patrick McCarville talked to Beth about Lee Grace's state of mind after the verdict. A lot of my conversations with Lee when she was in the jail was talking about, you know, messages she got from her brother's you know, family, dynamic stories, and not too much interest in her criminal case. She was kind of resigned that she was going to do some time, whether it was in Colorado, Georgia, Florida, or elsewhere.

She quickly adapted well to the jail. Essentially became a celebrity in the jail. And you know, I found it interesting. She became with the deputies that would escort her to court things of that nature. She was on a first name basis with all of them and would ask about their kids. Clearly, she was conversing with everybody, and she was the atypical inmate in the jail that she wasn't depressed. She was almost bombastic, and that continued. It really never

evaporated her positive attitude. Of course, at sentencing she was a little depressed and sad, But for that moment she had a positive attitude and was going to make the best of her situation, regardless of the consequences. Was it that she was just resigned to it, or did she not have an understanding, I mean, you have now a federal charges for the bank robbery and then shooting at officers and all the eight or she just was kind of at piece because she couldn't control what was about

to happen. Perhaps she would ask questions like is it possible for me to be sent into the same prison as my brothers. Her primary concerns were the welfare of Dylan and Ryan and not necessarily of herself. Here again is Kobe Becker speaking with Beth. My question for you,

and again i'm model lawyer. The sentence it's hard, you know, when you say, well, the sentences seemed extreme because they shot at officers, they shot at the FBI, they rubbed a bank, But it seems like, you know, and hearing the sentencing and reading the files, you know what the recommended was, and it almost seems like they were charged for things that could have happened. Yeah, well, welcome to

criminal law. When you shoot into a crowd and nobody has hurt, you are subjected to forty eight years and the state prison because of what could have happened. It's ridiculous. I mean, they're there. I could go on for days about the need for criminal justice reform. I don't even like to use the word justice system because it's not a just system. It is not a just system for indigent clients. It's not a just system for people that

really don't cause any harm. To say, hey, we're going to punish these kids and put them in prison for thirty two years because you know, we're going to deter other people from shooting at law enforcement. Well, let's see how well that happened. How well did that work? Right, because clearly no one has shot at a cop since these guys, you know, we're sentenced ten years ago to to shooting at cops. Let's stop here for another quick break.

We'll be back in a moment. The Docerts faced more court dates in Georgia and Florida, but they had one bright moment. Ryan picks up the story. The main guy at the jail gave us like an hour and a half in a visitation room to see each other after we got sentence. So that was cool because the county jail people knew us well enough and liked us well enough, and we had made friends with him well enough to be able to get that last hour visit together. Then we roll on out to the Feds. The Feds come

get us. They fly us in a little tiny jet, just me, my brother and sister in three US marshalls where were chained to like a d ring to the floor of the plane and you know, you're shackled up like six ways from Sunday and cuffed up, and they flew us from there to Georgia. Georgia took about a year to work its way through the process. The Dougherty publicity parade played out once again when they landed in Georgia.

Here's Beth with Ryan followed by the Grace. I was able to find like some footage and I think it's you and Lee Grace being walked outside of a courtroom in shackles and with a guy with a like M sixteen walking out in front of you and they kind of paraded you in front of the media. Yeah, they did that before we ever got to child, So I don't know how we're ever supposed to get the attend its fair or impartial ever anywhere. Really, I think it

was just for show. And I think that when they feel embarrassed, they have to recoup, you know, their losses. They have to make a fan, they have to make a statement of you know, we lost one, we lost the battle, but we're gonna win the war. And I think that was what the statement they were trying to make is, these these three siblings are not going to embarrass us anymore. You know, they might have done it once, but there's no way in hell they're going to do

it again. So I think a lot of that was her show, and I think you look at it from a legal perspective, they had to put their front down here again. Psychologists and sibling specialist Avadan Moleski. There's this video clip that one news outlet caught them when they were being led out of the Georgia court after their court appearance in Georgia. Right, they have to be up here and court in Colorado and in Georgia and Florida.

So there's a small, little thirty second snapshot of both Ryan and Lee Grace walking out of the Georgia courtroom and they were being led into the US Marshall car and you see Lee Grace turnaround towards Ryan and give them a little kiss on the cheek, like this older sister and they're in this horrible situation, and this little outreach of love between an older sister and a younger brother that just really encapsulated for me this remarkable relationship.

The docrit Is copped to plea deal again, this time in Georgia, and in December they were sentenced by Judge Hugh Lawson and Valdosta to thirty five years and eight months aged for robbing the local bank. Georgia took about a year to work its way through the process and we ended up lean out there being as they said, seventeen to nineteen years, and then the judge and court just gives us forty years. And I said in court,

I said, man, this fucking kangaroo court. I said, how do you sleep with yourself at night with this sentence that you just shot like way over the move And then judge is like, oh, if you feel that way, appeal and you know, end of that. The Doughertys actually received sentences that went above and beyond the federal guideline range. My guideline range called for seventeen to nineteen years. They said, hey,

sign this lee deal for seventeen to nineteen years. I signed for that, and then the judges like, I don't like this hold these thirty five years. But the fact that they're swinging against you is, hey, bro, you know that this gun itself carries a life sentence, right, so if you don't pleaded this, it takes this open flee of whatever the funk we decided to give you. Is your blessing is you do, You're gonna get hit with a fucking life sentence. That's the stick that they always

threaten you with. Dylan was hit the hardest with both sentences. My sentence I was always supposed to be forty seven months. You know, I was with the bank robbery side of the side of the criminal you know, Enterprise carried was I think it was forty two forty seven months, and I think gave me four. So that kind of says it all right there. That was my guidelines, and that's what my federal attorney told me. In Georgia. Oh, they're

gonna go with the guidelines. You know, that's what they're there for, and blah blah bla, and uh, you know, I can only laugh at that now, m But they don't have to go with the guidelines, folks. They're just guy's lines. They can do whatever they want at the end of the day. Mother Barbara Belle shares her perspective

on how the trials and sentencing played out. I don't dare to hope, and realistically, I think my children so much publicity or surrounded their initial crime spree that everybody wanted to get their name in there, and everybody wanted to have a piece of the pie, piece of the famous pie. That they're over the top sentences when they signed plea agreements that they agreed they pleaded guilty of crimes with the agreement of twenty years in prison, and

to have that overridden by a judge. Everybody wanted in on the publicity and part of the limelight. And now they're forgotten on one of the few that actually keeps in touch with them regularly. There are a few other people, but this is yesterday's news to most people. But me, I wake up every morning with this as fresh as if it happened yesterday. I'm in a three of bad mood. Now. I just kind of legal letter from my new attorneys

that I have in Florida. In the letter said, well, I tend to that apparently much times I could start until, like in this case resolved, and I was un any impression that they would it would would start from the moment that I was seeking car. Sorry, just come up on ten years now, so from minus and easy that I'm not, I can create it for the time that I've served already. I don't know. It is crazy. Prison is basically a warehouse. You know, you have your room,

you have your drawer, you have your locker. It's just a big storage facility where you just fit in the same unit pretty much all day long, all night long, and you just do your time day for day. And they do have um a prescription still line. But are any of these medications very good? No. They are drugs that make you sleepy, drugs that make you gain weight, drugs that make you look like ship. They are different

people now. They regret what they did and they need to be out here making a valuable contribution to society instead of costing the taxpayers a hundred dollars a day each to keep them in Federal House. More on that next time. If you're over eighteen years old and want to see pictures of Lee Grace and Ryan Dougherty or find their addresses to write them in prison, go to

our Instagram at Katie Underscore Studios. If you're enjoying this podcast, please listen and subscribe to Crazy and Love, Katie Studio's latest true and podcast. The Dougherty Gang is executive produced by Stephanie lie Decker and me Courtney Armstrong, along with Beth Greenwald, Sean McEwen, and Joseph Morgan. Editing and sound design is by Jeff Ta. Additional producing by Chris Graves and Jeff Shane. The Doctor Gang is a production of

I Heeart Radio and Katie Studios. For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the i Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.