This episode of the dig is brought to you by our listeners who support us at patreon dot com and by hay market books. As global crises deepen, social movements are striving toward new visions and experimenting with new strategies. From Palestine to the Us and beyond, radical politics have re emerged as necessary for both survival and full liberation. At this critical juncture, the socialism conference August t through September second in Chicago will be a vital gathering place for today's left.
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market books. Visit socialism conference dot org. To learn more and register today. Hope to see you there. Welcome to the Dig, a podcast from Jack Magazine. My name is Daniel Denver, and I'm broadcasting from Providence Rhode Island. This is the fifteenth episode of Fa, the digs series on twentieth century Arab politics with historian Abdul R to Cr. Fa is Arabic 4, revolution. It's a word that contains historical multitudes, diverse political radical
and revolt. That have swept across arab lands over the past century. We are nearing the very end of the. This is the second of 3 episodes on the Palestinian revolution. A trilogy that will bring our story of radical twentieth century arab politics to a close. Here, we pick up where we left off last time.
The Palestinian revolution establishing training camps, headquarters, bases, alongside social and political infrastructure in frontline states surrounding the zion settle state of Israel, Jordan, Lebanon and Syria. Meanwhile, Palestinians in the pre 67 borders of Israel continued to struggle often through the Israeli communist party Mo. And later, through its anti zion splinter party, Ra.
But the Palestinian revolution was concentrating its forces just outside the borders of historic Palestine, which with the 19 67 Arab military defeat had been entirely conquered by the Israeli state. Jordan with its massive Palestinian population in long border with Israel, was the Palestinian revolutions first and logical headquarters.
In Lebanon, the Palestinian revolution liberated refugee camps from the brutal rep ref of the Lebanese governments Took bureau and secured the right to maintain an open gorilla presence in the country. Syria, during the period when it was ruled by military Bath, sal at eat from 19 66 through 19 70. Allowed training camps on its territory, but discouraged cross border attacks from its soil.
After the 19 67 arab defeat. And the subsequent huge prestige earned by the Palestinian revolution in the wake of the 19 68 battle of Karma. The Palestinian revolution won enormous freedom of action in these frontline states. But at the same time, the presence of an armed Palestinian movement. Some of whose factions sought to overthrow reactionary arab regimes alongside zion state. Created problems, including the problem of brutally disproportionate Israeli rep.
It was this dynamic that led into black September. The 19 70 Jordan monarch assault on P o gorilla fighters. The violent ex of the P from Jordan that followed was hugely consequential, causing the Palestinian revolution to relocate its headquarters to Lebanon. In Lebanon, the P then sought to build up its military presence and capacity in the country's south. Within striking distance of the Zion enemy. And it allied with domestic forces against right wing marina philanthropist militias.
And against the entire secretary colonial order. The P had to fight off whether constant Israeli attacks. Including an assassination campaign against cultural and political leaders. This dynamic in Lebanon would lead to civil wars. And Israeli invasion and ultimately, to the 19 82 Israeli siege of Beirut into the P subsequent evacuation. This marked the end of the Palestinian revolution and the entire era of Era revolution. A story that we will tell in the next episode.
Meanwhile, black September was also the pre event behind Raf A assad launching a coup in Syria that ousted his 1 time bath military ally, sal indeed from power. Assad coup in Syria, combined with the rise of Saddam hussein in newly rock. Spelled the end of ba once a promise in both countries. And really across the entire era world. Making matters worse. The his historic tribune of Pan arab nationalism revolutionary dream was sun setting from the regional political scene.
It was in September 19 70, the Gem Del No died, precisely as he tried to negotiate an end to the fighting in Jordan. No, as T listeners know very well by now. Was an unparalleled icon of arab nationalism and arab socialism. The leader of a region wide struggle against western imperial and zion. In the mid 19 fifties, No had been riding high. After defeating the western aligned baghdad dad military pact and holding off the tri aggression in suez.
It was a series of victories that culminated in the formation of the United Arab Republic in 19 58. But Syria succession in 19 61, and then the catastrophic era lost to Israel in 19 67. Had attenuated No power. After No death, An Sad to control in Egypt. Sid saddam would go on to definitively end the country's vanguard role in Arab revolution. And instead make Egypt a leading architect of a new accommodation with reaction and imperialist power.
Nevertheless, conflict between Israel and Arab states persisted and then exploded again when Sid Egypt and Assad Syria launched the surprise October war of 19 73. It was not an overwhelming arab victory. But Egypt and Syria battlefield successes in the face of massive Us arms shipments to Israel. Dented the zion settle states aura of military and redeemed in part, a sequence of arab military failures stretching back to 19 48.
At the same time, an oil embargo against the Us in other countries backing Israel launched by arab states, made the use of the oil weapon in anti imperialist geopolitics newly think. But the arab world would not collectively achieve any real benefit from these victories. These tactical and martial achievements came precisely when the power of left wing and anti imperialist politics was declining across the region at least within the commanding heights of state power.
The United States with Henry Kissing at the lead under president's Nixon and Ford, exploited the opening and embarked on a diplomatic strategy, of dis uniting Arab countries from 1 another, and also simultaneously and very much related from the Palestinian cause. That approach fit perfectly with Sid goal of ending the arab of revolution to make peace with the American empire and with Israel in exchange for the latter returning the sinai peninsula.
A traitor is piece that was made in 19 77 in 19 78, in which we will discuss in our next episode. We end this episode by assessing the nature and causes of the Us relationship with Israel, a fraught, controversial and extremely important question. Before we get this episode rolling, we are so close to the end of the series, and I just want to ask you to join other listeners in supporting the podcast at petri patreon dot com slash the dig. 1 more episode of Thought what I left.
And then an Epi blog. It's been a huge project very much unlike anything we've ever done, and we're doing it because it is precisely the justification and duration of this history of Arab and Palestinian revolutionary politics, that is a substantial part of the Edi upon which the legitimacy of contemporary western imperial and zion has been constructed. This is a political education project, and we make it free for all, regardless of your ability to pay.
That is an absolute priority for us. And it's only possible because those of you who want to contribute and can afford to contribute do so at patreon dot com slash the dig. All contributors receive our excellent newsletter by email. And depending on where you live and how much you contribute we have gifts to send you in the mail, including tote bags, coffee mugs, books, and we are working on a fa poster. Anyhow. Contribute now if you can afford to support us and you appreciate what we do.
Many of you are like, oh, maybe I'll do it next week. I get it, but please just do it now. That's PATRE0N dot com slash the dig. Finally, if you're in London on July 20 sixth. Come see me and Eleanor penn, interviewing Jeremy Corbyn and La K on the politics of left wing international. That following a live recording of the Macro podcast with James Midway, Theo Franco, Dahlia Gabriel, and. Tickets are going fast. Buy them now. There's a link in the show notes.
Okay. Here's Del R Cri, who teaches history at Rice University. A scholar of Arab and Palestinian revolutionary movements. He's the author of monsoon revolution, Republicans, Sultan and empires in Oman. And the c author of the Palestinian Revolution Digital Humanity's website. And that website, I'm pleased to report is back up and running. There are a few king store out a few broken links to fix, but The Palestinian Revolution digital Humanity's website is up and running.
There's a link in the show notes, please. Check it out. The Palestinian revolution required bases and a headquarters outside of historic Palestine. And and for those things, they looked to frontline states border the Israeli Zion settle state, Jordan, Lebanon and Syria. What in the period leading up to black September in 19 70. Did the Palestinian revolutions relationship with and presence in each of these countries look like?
Yeah. So so if we tie this actually to the question of political architecture in the in the P, we see that Out of that understood when he was constructing it that you need to account for regional interventions in the past arena as we mentioned. And and the regional dimension is important because the palestinians are refugee people. And internal action within Palestine was now repressed.
So as we mentioned earlier in the episode, the attempts to launch our revolution in the West bank, for example, had been suppressed and nip about early on on the part of. So what was known as the second second and Tal the second launch. Was aborted. The attempts of other policy information to create also armed action were nip in the butt. So you had, therefore, I need to intervene in the broader regional arena.
And to ensure that there would be palestinian freedom of work and the broader regional arena, especially in the states that had borders with the Israeli ce colonial state. So and that meant Lebanon Syria and and and Jordan.
Notice that I omitted egypt because what tended to happen, and this is fairly typical in these situations, is that strong states that are still fully in control over their internal boundaries, will not allow you to operate, unless they want you to operate within their borders. And in general, most strong states in the region did not want their borders to be theaters of operations for... For the.
That's because they prioritize national security needs, but also, It's because they had very big calculations relating to geo strategic, this ji broader global geo strategic arena. Additionally, in the case of Egypt, of course, they had no control or resign. Which meant that there were no suitable places to establish with the groups even if the egyptian state, which is a strong state. Internally. You know, it's it's it has a full
control over. Its internal arena or or a great deal of control over Center earlier. You know, it was it was not gonna allow that. So the pas revolution then had to, deal with the with 3 options and and it in these 3 arenas, Lebanon, Siri joy them. Most of the focus in the period 19 67 to 19 70 was, of course, un jordan. That's natural because Jordan has a majority Palestinian population. And east bankrupt population who are what what you would call Jordan jordan the. Okay? They is sympathetic.
Very sympathetic. They're they're they're culturally politically and socially extremely intertwined with Palestine in the palestinian in people, and not in the ways the designers describe it as an alternative homeland. We spoke about this million times, but it doesn't hurt to be reiterated it. The idea of of of liberating Palestine is essential there. So you had a popular atmosphere that was conducive to starting operations there. Jordan also had lost the West Bank. It remember it that annexed
it. So in technical terms, there was another incentive, politically, This was a country that had lost territory. So we would have been difficult for the government there to come and confront this project of regaining the land through organizing armed revolutionary struggle without clashing with a will of of broad popular. Sections. Eventually, of course, the Monarch government did find a way to mobilize social forces against their evolution, but that will get to that in a second.
Lebanon was a more complicated arena. Because Lebanon was such a deeply divided society by design. You know, politically, it was divided by design. The French had designed it as such, even in the ottoman period, there was, that process started, you know? And for people who wanna understand how that worked, you know, I think we might have referenced this book before but or saint disease culture of sec. It's a very good place to
start. In nineteenth century, you have all sorts of social conflicts, but also colonial interventions that intersect to produce a culture of sec experience. 3 have sec in this space. And by by that, we mean that there there are active political forces, that operate in accordance with declared, you know, logic that serves particular sex. And sometimes in political science, they refer to the as a constitutional, and they're trying to put a positive spin on it.
But what it does really is that there's clusters and there centered, there are leadership within specific religious communities. In the French tradition around Lebanon Colonial Elite. They had set up the whole system and we talked about this before. In a way the privileged marina Christians, and many ways, this shi citizens from the south. But also, there were other religious minorities that felt that they didn't have their fair share of the political buy or
the... And and there were others, particularly those belonging to the left. That rejected the logic of the system as a whole, to core. You know, if you're a communists, you're not gonna be a fan of the idea of organizing your political life based on sec. This is insanity. Even if you're basic liberal, this is insanity. Because you'd be thinking, well, we're all citizens. Why?
What what is this thing about? Like, I'm a I'm a a marinate Christian and you're orthodox Christian and the other person and is a Ga and muslim and then there's a. So they're are 18 major sex and many more out there.
So These forces that were disgruntled with the system, either because they did not have enough representation in it, or because they rejected the logic of it, which are the leftist test forces, of course, the secular left, they tended to be sympathetic to the idea of a Palestinian armed presence in in Lebanon.
And there was also another factor which was important which is that in many of those circles, anyways, there was a strong anti colonial ideology in operation and an ideology that emphasized the injustice that was reflecting the pas people. Remember Lebanon absorbed refugees. Many. And people saw their misery, than you about Israeli practices early on, but also they witnessed them first firsthand.
And that left a deep impact, especially in the south of the country but also elsewhere, And many in lebanon had, either a pan ar airbus ideology or a different islamic ideologies or leftist ideologies. Were aligned with with the idea of Palestinian liberation. And and the reason why I mentioned this is that in today's discussions in love, you know, many people say, the showed up, and, you know, they entered the country entered into chaos and so on. Well, actually, let
me on at under the... Take at had had just come out of its own internal civil war that we described in an earlier episode. Okay? And and and and which had witnessed the the first and most major American military intervention and landing. K? And the political outcome was not decisive yet. So far since we're entering over internal already, charged political arena, but also, the political arena in which competing ideologies were in existence. This is 19 58 when Us marines land in in Lebanon just to
orient listeners? Yes. Just to remind our listeners. Yes. And and and now a few years later, you know, like, literally 9 years later, we have 67. So you have the student movement, by the way, you're going down and all the universities and especially American University and others, they're going down to the streets chanting for for Fe and for other formations that were active. You had branches of the movement of our nationalist. Chanting for the P p and the new
formations that were coming out of them. You at the bath that we're supporting this. And then you have also traditional leaders like comme blood that were, promoting modern ideologies. He he... Developed a party, quote, the progressive socialist party.
Anywhere, he was embracing ideas of socialism and so on even, which is you know, even though it comes from a funeral over semi funeral background, but, you, he was promoting these ideas and and he was talking about an anti sec program, you know, he was trying to develop that. So somebody like him, you know, and again, we we can't we don't have the time to go into the motivations of each actor. But the point is that you had this popular trend
that was pushing for day action. And this is by the way not to mention the strong connection that had existed in in places like the south where the peasant and the working class allied themselves with the ideal opacity integration. For many reasons, that include these direct connections, but also contemporary possibilities that were open by these movies. So ba seeing started to operate in that
space. Now, They were operating under actually a legitimate formula that came about as a result of Lebanese internal political crisis. And that's... That was called the Cairo agreement, which were signed in 19 69 because up until that point between 6 7 and and and 69. You had the tension between the Lebanese army, which was trying to crack down on pas gorilla action and the the, of course, palestinian in movements. And that produced then a constant set of crises.
Eventually, a working formula was arrived at and negotiations. That were sponsored by by Gem Den na. This essentially legitimate the idea of the Lebanese vietnamese space being used and a very territory being used for developing gorilla activities. Okay? So many years later, of course, that produced also sorts of resentment in Lebanon.
Okay, especially you know, for the very beginning, the right Lebanon, and the especially the ones that sold themselves as allied to the kat party, 1 of the largest Mara parties. But essentially, any any sphere in the any of the movements operating in the Marina sphere outside of the left, did not like this arrangement. Because they had their own aspirations for Lebanon that were based on notions of keeping the old formula of man suppress.
But also because ideological, there was this promotion of the idea that they had the separate identity. 1, not an arab 1. So there was no sense of connection. They were like, what do we have to do with Palestine. We're And there are, which, of course, is absolutely ridiculous because physicians are can night peoples that operated across this area and a coast from from and from the very north to the very... You know, it's a it's a long story. But but he, as you know, all of
these ideas are manufactured. So and invented them they serve political agendas in the present. So that's the the structural situation that produces so much of the dynamics that we were to see later on as a year's passed buy, and that was to lead to major or to contribute at least in major ways to the eruption of this a little war level. So we've we've covered Jordan and Lebanon, let's
get into Syria. What was the relationship like between the P and this ba is government of solid deed, which took power in 66, and as we'll get to soon, lost power in 19 70. So in Syria, there was this interesting situation. Of course, for Fat, it was operating Syria already. Okay? And, for a while, there was a fear that that its operations would be disrupted. After 67 and everything that took place.
But, of course, you know, there were forces internal to the to the political context in Syria and in internal that were pro increased fed that action, increased commando action, Although, they did not prefer that it the the the they get carried out from Syrian third. The preference was to support it in in the Lebanese front Enjoy in front more. There were some... Operations that took place from Syria, but that
was not the primary arena. However, Syria opened allowed for basis to continue to function, And and in fact, there was an expansion of bases that were functioning out of Syria, there was, 1 major training center that was initially established for Fe, another from Rubin arab Nationalist. Sorry. For the P p now, it was renamed, of course. And then later on, there were there was an expansion of of all of that. A great deal of training was going on in Syria.
So Syria became 1 of the main places where you would go before you volunteer fight on the front, and he would receive a train. That has a long history. I mean, the the original train... Fed for, for example, everybody has gone through this early phase and had been fighter, and it will tell you that they either went to the Academy, in Algeria.
Or they trained at the Lab base in Syria, and they received their some some equipment and and and then went on to Jordan or to Lebanon to do their the the their actual service in the revolution. So that was 1 of the main functions. There's also place where headquarters were located. It was a place where a lot of the logistics were taking place. Notice in this period, by the way, movement across borders between these states was fairly smooth. A lot of that could move a much
more easily. And before 67, there was such restriction on movement. But now, again, because of the war, these armies are taken a big hit security services taking big yet the prestige of the Have gone really up. So there was now a greater ability to move people to move weapons to move equipment and this mobility contributed to the ability to undertake you know, operations. The Israelis is we're constantly, of course, bombing targets in these different places.
Including in Syria where they bought Tart training center, which was a major training center for for the... For for Fat, for example. So so we should always bear in mind that this period was not 1 in which the states and the region could offer this kind of access for the policy revolution without facing repercussions. In fact, is israeli doctrine throughout was was what you would call, like, a raging ball kind of approach, like just destroy everything if if if if you get,
like, hit by by by anything. Yeah? So, in any case, the Syrian had certain regional pressures on them to continue supporting, but also they are their own internal ideological alignments that geared encourage them to continue to support. And and it let's not forget at this stage, the government there was claiming that I say left wing government. The the the civilians in the government had served in the Fl, a lot of them. I think we might have referred to this
earlier. These were doctors that's certainly the Fl. They been in the a algeria struggle, you know, and and, you know, talking about No deal Nat and and these people. You know, brian Marquis and and these people, they were very allied with the Para effort. In many ways. Ideological, I'm talking. They they were not opposed to it. But also, you had, you know, Assyrian military that that so the the the importance of this for morale and and for, you know, other other reasons
relating to the this area front. And remember here we had lost territory colon heights at this stage. So it felt there was a feeling a popular feeling that again, was very much profit that is pro palestinian mobilization. I wanna shift briefly back into the 48 territories. The initial territories occupied by Zion forces in 19 48 that becomes the state of Israel. In the wake of the Na, only about a hundred 50000 Palestinians remained inside the formal territory of the state of Israel after 48.
And we've talked in a prior episode about the Israeli communist party or Mah, a party with substantially jewish leadership, but a heavily air base and the role that it played in these these first decades of the state of Israel in in articulating Palestinian demands. But In 19 65, a new mostly Palestinian era led communist group called Ra broke off from the mostly Jewish led Mo, adopting a clearly anti zion position and also, I think more firmly aligning itself. With the Soviet union.
And and just as an aside today, so as not to confuse listeners who follow contemporary Israeli politics. The split off Rock is now called Mah again because the old party Mah dissolved itself into a different formation called Ro, which then dissolved off into the zion, the left sinus party Mara, but anyhow, returning to the 19 sixties. There's Ro splitting off from Mo and there's also more revolutionary socialist and anti zion currents like the group Mo pen.
What did Palestinian and Jewish new left radical look like inside? The state of Israel. And to what extent did it create any sort of possibility for any sort of substantial meaningful consequential Jewish Arab anti zion politics within the 48 borders. So all of the events that you described, Daniel have to be contextualize with the reference to the composition of see Israeli communist party, which was originally referred to as, and then, add witnessed, Rag split that you're referred to in 19 65.
The what had happened after the Na was that the party's base increasingly became, of course advised, and and and and its presence amongst arab Palestinian arab was was grew exponentially because, of course, unlike the pre na period when it was operating in a a political environment where there were
many movements, and where... Which was a small ideological party that I'd contend with much larger parties operating in the past, arena and drawing on large patricia families and networks and can kinship arrangements and different you know, different dynamics altogether. A communist party after 19 48 was 1 that was the only space that was officially allowed to operate that arabs could join. Palestinian arabs could join.
Zion parties did not want passing members in them and did not offer them a space that they could live with, at least. You know, later on, of course, they started competing of over their votes. But but to be represented in the party, and to have an agenda it serves you was not something that was going to be given to you by the labor party, for example. Okay. I were not interested in in arab base. They they were explicitly Jewish oriented parties. The communists on the other hand,
opened their doors for that. And they had reunited, of course, the herb and the Pas in Herb in Jewish members of the party. After the Na had undergone a process of re reunification, and you had major political figures in the Arab society in 19 48 emerging out of this process. So the leaders politically of the Pal arab community that remained after the Na, were predominantly commerce. You had people like the great writer, emile H, for example, and I encourage our listeners to, purchase Nobel.
Which is a great, wonderful. Novel about the conditions of Pets frankfurt 40. You had email too, you had to yeah, the great poet and was mailed. Now... And as all these figures they came out of the become party. And, by the way, there's was an excellent study of this that was written by my colleague and friend Mana Sa, who teaches in Arizona. She wrote a book called brothers apart, so I I recommend that. In any case,
we... We're entering a new arena in the mid sixties, when you have elements that were zion within the Communist movement that are saying that they have a problem with the Soviet Union's increasing to the Israeli state. Remember, there regionally, there there had been a reconciliation of of the geopolitics of of the region, increasingly leads soviet Union became more aligned with Egypt and other arab countries and Israelis has become more aligned with with the west.
So that produced a complicated environment within within within the party. And, you know, you had people that, represented an anti... Or what was referred to by many people as a as an anti Soviet line. Which was really a zion line. Was led by Moshe. And was a you know, promoting ideas that a communist design orientation. How are you gonna sell that to party. There was the majority members were out the air the past majority. It was electoral basis that. So that produced a problem.
Now what ended up happening is that essentially the palestinian arab leader is plus jewish leaders that were, Pros Soviet and and and anti zion, like mayor Builder, they decided to you know, form their own thing as a result of this. And and they they they essentially created a new formation called Ra, that that represented an anti zion line. Now, it's not clear. To me that this anti zion line would have had a chance with Jewish. Descendants of cell or new cell.
And that was basically, the audience that that some of the zion communists were clearly targeting. But it was it was obvious that that the main program of the party was going to draw on the energies of of per arabs with within within the state. And eventually, what what ended up happening was, the zion communist disappear from the map anyways. I mean, the... It's not a sustainable, ideology, and it does not have a popular
popular base. And that gets proven in elections immediately after the split happens, they pretty much, you know, lose original Mack representation and there is really connected at Windows significantly, while the Rocket 1 takes over essentially. There there's... They they win many more seats when, like, 3 seats and those guys we only want. So and barely, you know? So resistance internally, though, cannot be just understood with reference to these dynamics.
You know, The communist party, is a very important space for policy resistance at this stage because it's still only functioning that could be allowed by the state to function. But you had also other formations. Yeah. I think we've referred to them in previous episodes. It was had of the the that developed the land movement that developed early on. There was other movements that developed, like, bell.
And, of course, I remember, Daniel, all of these movements had to operate initially in in conditions that were totally horrific. I mean, up till 19 66, Marshall Law was in operation across palestinian companies were occupied in 19 48. And and this meant that even for communists, let's say, in the communist party, you have Communist Jews enjoyed more privileges than Palestinian communists. They were under Martial law, they were in situations that were absolutely controlled.
You could not organize openly in that as atmosphere without risking arrest, humiliation, you know, enterprises against your family. And I'm I'm I'm I'm emphasizing this because many in many occasions and in many circumstances, people forget there's deep struggles that were carried out by Pas 19 48.
Another form of struggle in Pas that was raised by them by the way, was to support the Palestinian revolution, that we have been consistent referring to across this episode because it needed logistics needed people to know the situation inside. And and throughout the period of passing senior armed struggle.
There were always people from 19 and 48 areas that were joining it because they they sold themselves as part of the Palestinian people even though there was a this attempt to split them apart from that people and isolate them. A good story about this For example, Theresa alice. She was somebody who left Hi walked on foot with their friend. You know, she just graduated from my school She was like, I wanna join they for that in this period.
Know, when I asked her once I interviewed there before she passed away and she's now passed away. You know, what were the influences that influence you, what, you know, it's she's like, well, I grew up in a house where used to listen to Nasa speeches, which is, of course, a illegal. But also, when the 67 war happened, and I saw what was going on, I I wanted to respond to that. You know, and I I wanted to fight against this state that was or me. Now, That's on the Palestinian.
Back to the communist dramas in the and it's israeli estate. Okay? So, you have another split that you kind of hinted at, which is a split between, Mack, and folks said that had issues with a just complete support for Soviet policy. Without, like, any critical assessment. And this coincided also with what they saw as the more principal stands against Diet. So, you know, we will refer to 1 side of the party that that that considered that the party was too anti zion.
Now we're looking at another side of the party that was saying, it's not anti zion enough. In particular, these is include people like Moshe Makeover. And, of course, ak or these people so themselves as as as more critical. They could be seen as as as more impacted by some new left ideas. They even had different affiliation with the with centimeters figures as well that that that that saw themselves as being part of this new wave, you know, people like Nicola, others like that.
But you had the development of new debates in the 19 sixties. That would have been difficult to have in the zion state in the 19 fifties. You know, and there there was this early fe after the Na of Zion fe that narrowed down space. And that's why the the communist is party for all its else in that moment. And, you know, some of its sales are now are referred to
by nationalist amongst palestinian citizens Israel circles. You know, because later on, there was, of course an additional split that happens amongst the communist party that produces a new party in the air scene, and on in 96, you have the, Az mi and a group of people from the Israeli economies. Friday they start the ta z, the gathering. You know, they sometimes say, well, the communist party made us ways is israeli flags during independence day in the fifties years, and they
did a... They they they they criticize it for not offering... For not according. Passing is a space for expression of national sentiment. And that's true, but, of course, the context of the fifties was so oppressive. By the sixties, we can have conversations around these questions that expand a bit more. And there was a possibility for re evaluations of a bunch of issues, including the relationship with the Soviet Union, their relationship with zion and and so on and so forth.
In September 19 70, the P became engulfed in a giant armed conflict with king hussein of Jordan. It it was an event infamous known as black September when Jordan iranian forces surrounded and launched major attacks on P forces across the country. And there's a lot to unpack here, and we have to do so rather ex because we have a ton of ground to cover. First, the basics, what what led the Jordan state
to attack P forces? And and then what did that conflict reveal about these larger contradictory dynamics that had emerged in these complex fraught relationships between the P in frontline states like Jordan from which the P o operated. And then second, what world countries like Iraq and Syria, both of which At least claimed to back the Fe, what role did they play in black September because Serious actions as we'll get into soon. They would have a major impact on Syrian
domestic politics. It's really a key event in terms of understanding how Assad came to power there, but we'll get to that in a few moments. Alright. So it's good to think about this in terms of the actual existing his geography, which starts in my view from the wrong premise. They start by accepting actually, the dominant version offered by, the, existing Arab states. Who assert that the problem had to do with state sovereignty. And, of course, from a state perspective,
that's totally refund. You know, if you start from the premise, that the, foremost value and ultimate principle and and in this world is states sovereignty. Then you will see the Palestinian revolution as engaging in something illegitimate. Now, at the same time, the existing is geography contradicts itself. Because their standard of what is right and wong is the is estate sovereignty.
But then they apply this set of tricks when it comes to analyzing events, where they focus on trans transactions on the part of their evolution, and particularly enjoyed them. This is this is a big deal. It becomes like, well, what are the mistakes that led to a clash between the state and and the revolution.
Unfortunately, due to the defeat that happened jordan and all the defeats that happened to the palestinian revolution afterwards, their internal policy discussions go down that route as well. They, you know, they start from this idea that there were trans, mistakes. And in a way, that assumes that the situation could have been structurally a significantly different had there not been these mistakes. I think that's an overs
simplification of reality. I think that we we should, think of this as a core structural contradiction. Between the logic of the state and the logic of the monarchy. Okay. And and and the logic of revolution. They're incompatible. Okay. Their revolutionary forces wanted to establish Jordan.
And in this case, by the way, they were backed by a vest swath of of people of popular movements and individuals, across the country that were keen to initiate armed struggle against the, Israeli central colonial state. So Their their logic was to establish Jordan as a base for revolution. That could not, at any moment be compatible structurally. With the logic of the regime. Now, the regime, however, had 2 directions within it. 1 was playing a waiting game.
And was willing to strike some temporary deals with their evolutionary forces. And the other wanted to strike quickly and to nip this process in the in the butt. So and in a way, the events that took place jordan the between, the defeat of 19 67 and black September you know, showed elements of that contradiction. But that was not a struggle over the principle, which is that there there should not be independent
revolutionary action ema from that country. That any action it should be actually controlled by the state. And preferably, as far as the state is concerned and monarch is concerned, there should be no action. Okay. Now the monarchy at the same time could not declare that. And the state could not declare that. Because that would have resulted in a serious popular uprising potential. So this is the the structural kind of dimension that we need to focus on. Now,
you had elements within the Drilling state. However, that were not connected to the monarchy, that were keen on supporting F work, and initiating your revolutionary at work. These included patriotic officers in the Jordan army, and some very senior ones at that. I'm sure had detailed ji, for example, is a good example... Is a good example of that. He is the leader of the forces that initiated the Jordan artillery attack on on the Israeli invading Israeli army during the battle of Kara.
And he later becomes the the head of the Jordan army as a whole. He's someone that considered that there should be a very strong relationship between the army and the. And that the army should back that action and and revolutionary. However, there were others in the drilling regime that that that were opposed to that. And amongst the leading voices in that tradition is, of course, the king's uncle, Sheriff Na, who was advocating complete destruction of the of the Fide.
Within E circles, also there were divisions. And that did not help the situation in in Jordan. You you could not have a a formula that was unified, even under the the P o. And that's because the 2 movements, that came out of the movement of arab nationalist. The 2 major organizations that came out of it. Had a different perspective on what to do with the Jordan regime, then they're competing historic rival, which was.
Fat tests overall, approach to air regimes was that there should be passing none interference with them as far as possible. So they did not have a theory of taking over this state. In any arab country. That was not their position. Their position however was that our countries should allow for seeing action against the israeli state. For the P p and D p, the outlook was different.
As we know from our previous discussions of the movement or our nationalist, their view was that there needed to be a revolution in the surrounding arab states, an overthrow of reactionary arab regimes. So as to be able to carry out a popular liberation war. And and this was definitely the position that was advocated by the D in relation to Jordan. They were calling for the overt overthrow monarchy. And Knife How who comes from Jordan by the way.
Was was very strongly calling for that. He was, of course, head of the Democratic popular front that we spoke about. And his rival within the move awareness of nationalist or H, who was was, of course, a tradition leader. And who became the head of the P team. He had to kind of also go along with that position. Now, initially, he was hesitant about advocating for that openly, although most of his caters would have believed in that.
But by May day 19 70, he advocates for that in openly in a in a in a speech during May day. Which, of course, in in all over the world except the Us celebrated and as Labor day. So in in his address to the canadian Pas and an air workers he called for overthrow of the monarchy. So this situation meant that You have 2 directions within the palestinian in revolution itself, in relation to the regime and also 2 directions within the regime in relation to their
revolution. Structurally, though, there was a contradiction between revolution and the state. And that that contradiction was seen over and over again. There were clashes between the popular front, for example and elements of the Jordan army in 19 68 as early as that. There were clashes that could have taken place even between T forces and and the army in earlier periods. There were incidents were that the F insists were orchestrated by the Mo
and the state. For example, there was a group under somebody called Tara, which Had Sketchy aims and seemed to be attacking Jordan germanium military targets. And they they... Most that is believed that it was you know, orchestrated by the Intelligence services. For the le Intelligence services, by the way, the the they included even Palestinian elements. So so 1 of their leading strategist in relation to the Fed groups, was a was a man who was... It came from na.
He, essentially advocated a position that that called for, you know, finding a formula, that that that end with infiltrate. These is movements. So he encouraged splits and infiltration because he knew a lot about them. So this meant that you had a series of clashes. Now, what you also had was a situation, and this is where the auto critique of of the past movements is reasonable. You did have also a situation where a lot of these parties and movements were unable to fully control
the overall direction of events. And because this was a situation where the state as we and where thousands and thousands of people suddenly joined their revolution. They did not go through the normal track. Of training and ideological preparation and induction. And that meant and that also, some of them were not disciplined. So if you have, like, a young teenage person, being given a gun, they could do stupid stuff with it. And there are many stories that came out of door in their period.
All people arresting police officers unnecessarily they have resentment towards them from previous years, of course, they have resentment towards all symbols of the state, but they were not strategic in terms of distinguishing between the state and and the police officers and the soldiers, which led them to growing resentment.
And this is an important theme in palestinian and analysis of black September and also Patriotic analysis of of black September because They're posing the question of how was the monarchy able to generate popular support for the crackdown on their evolution. At a time when just a couple of years earlier,
there was massive support for their revolution. So incidents like that created a sense of alien elimination that could be used by the regime, and some of them again, were manufactured, other took place because of, lack of discipline a quick expansion and without without without enough vetting. Now the outcome was by 19 70. You have the king preparing for a big crackdown. And there is essentially, an American shipment of weapons that that that he receives.
He he carries out a big conference for during the tribal dealerships from the East bank to basically call for loyalty to the King and mobilization against this phenomenon and and here, he uses basically Jordan local nationalism. To achieve his mobilization aims. So traditionally, the regime Jordan tried to promote its own conservative version of arab nationalism, under monarch article as you might better. But now it needed to re brand itself. As a representative of the local mundane identity.
And, of course, this is a mixed spike, ethnically, it's like, at least, split half an half if not, majority Palestinian, but you have, you know, of course, you're the tribes and and families that are rooted in the country and the Regime could rely on them. In advantage as they they constitute the the majority of the senior ranks in the army. And and also of the rank rank file.
So... And with enough purging, you could create a military that that could, crack down on the on the on their evolution with that. So, this is structurally the situation that happens. There's a d mobilization going on. There's an arming. And then they use the excuse of plain hijacking. And so the strategies that were deployed by the P to say, okay. Sovereignty is lost in this place. There is no for the state. There's no respect for the army. It's this disorder and chaos.
Okay? We have to correct down. So that's the the popular logic that is promoted by the resume at this stage, and it carries out a big crackdown on the entire for that e presence. In September and 19 70. And then what does the actual crackdown look like in what role do other arab states, particularly those that ostensibly are strong supporters of the Fed play, particularly Syria. So there's 2 arab states that have an immediate military bearing on the situation in Jordan in this period, which are
Iraq and Syria. Iraq has a military contingent in Jordan. And in many ways, the king was delaying action against the the because since 19 67, that Iraqi troop deployment was there to help Jordan, of course, not be invaded by the Israeli forces that had taken over the West bank and could potentially threaten it in the rest of the country. But the worry was that that, you know, the detachment that that that, rocket deployment could be used to support the a da.
And in here, you had the special talks between the king and the and the Iraqi army that that helped to ensure that the person in charge in Jordan would not intervene in favor of the of the. Now that was a mis escalation on the part of the for the Ian as well, including the p dealership thought that that the Brazilian state will have to really consider its options because of the presence of this Iraqi unit, it might not crack down.
And this is an Iraqi unit that is ostensibly following orders of the now regime in in Baghdad. Yes. Although it's it's a complicated story. I mean, the the the head of the detachment, of course, is related to saddam. You know, So you have, you know, a relative of saddam didn't it. But during black September, you have a situation where there are suspicions that it might have been a dire deal with with with King jose.
So so these are you know, it's a complicated discussion, whether it was authorized by the leadership in bangladesh dad or not, But, yeah, most likely, you know, they would have had knowledge of it, but we we can't And and, of course, the the the situation in the case of the Syrian was much more serious. Because in Syria, you had a government that claimed to be very leftist claimed to be very today and that that was you know, committed to promoting revolution. At least on the surface.
When the attacks and is happened in 19 70, they were pressuring for an entry to Jordan and they did. But the the the Syrian troops, were not giving air cover by, a member of the Syrian leadership that control the Air force, which is, of course, half as an us. Now, this was connected to, a variety of things, half as considered that these were, adventurous. But he also, of course, had to deal with, warnings from the israelis and the Americans about Syrian intervention.
And there was fear that, you know, had if if there was a very strong Syrian intervention in support of overthrow the State in Jordan and Israelis with bomb damascus. It would cause serious problems. So that was part of the, you know, drama that we're discussing here. And so essentially, Syrian tanks rolled into the country, but didn't do anything. Well, Syrian texts rolled into the country, they
did quite a bit. They took over the north of the country, you know, in the region around Ed bit, the main city, in the north. Was taken over. It was an announced as a liberated zoom. There was even an administration set there. And the that groups you know, to control for a while. But the the... Without air cover, the the or the inventory forces were able to to push it back eventually. And in the meantime, half as an asset orchestrate a coup, that he calls the corrective move.
And he overthrow the, government led by Sal in this in this period. This is in November 19 70, that Assad ou fellow military bath, sal deed and a coup.
How did this split between Ja and Assad, who who together, listeners will recall Together had ousted the civilian or traditional, Syrian boss leadership in a 19 66 coup how did this new split amongst the military come about and how did that split between Jet and Assad fit into these longer intern fights among bath between various ideological factions, military versus civilian factions and also critically between the Iraqi and and Syrian factions that we spent so much of the Series discussing,
and then And then lastly, what role did Syria action assad decision not to provide air cover to to Syrian forces in Jordan during Black September. What role did that play in being the sort of proxima spark for the coup? So there's 2 ways of viewing this, question of the contradiction within the Syrian former syrian comrades rates in this bat bath leadership post the 19 66 coup. 1 is to think of it in ideological
terms. And of course, there is an ideological facade to all of this provided by As assad and its opponents. And the other is to think of it in, in terms of personal quest for power. In in in my estimation, There is an ideological dimension, but it's it's not the strongest. Their actual contest station over power
was was the dominant theme? Yes, As I said, was advocating what he would have called a more realist approach where Soya enters the state system and enters the state system game without having these grand ideas about exporting revolution or anything of that sort. And he... Yes, on the internal economic front, he did want a more mixed model of socialism where there would be elements of socialism but mixed with encouraging private enterprise. So there are ideological differences.
But there are also personal quest for power connected to this and and really it was clear that how an asset was very shrewd and and very effective, from the very beginning. To the very end of his life. I mean, he was definitely a very effective political player he was ruthless, but, he was also calculating. And, every movie he did was based on calculations that related to him achieving greater and greater power. That's clear for any serious observer.
No. You have supporters and fans of his that love their ruthless or that try to hide it. And those that try to hide it. They focus on the shortness. But I would I would definitely tell you a couple of things. 1 And somebody like him is not a theorist. He's not particularly well wet. He's not an intellectual, but he's smart. And he's is is is a pragmatic actor in a very complex arena. And he deals with that arena using whatever tools he has, and he has no limits when it comes
to using those tools. So if he needs to kill people, he will, he wouldn't do it necessarily just out of, you know, for for for for fun or out of, you know, randomness, but but he he will do it, and he's done it. Multiple occasions. If he needs to crack down you well, and he created definitely a situation where the security state reached unprecedented levels in in Syria. So when he did his corrective move, the way he dealt with his former comrades is very telling.
You know, they're all put into, like, tiny cells, their whole torture, their whole, you know, I mean, what difference would it have made if if you put them give them slightly better treatment, for example. You know, like, why not why not give somebody a sweet prison if he was your body for, like, 25 years or something like, you know what I mean? Like and if you subjected to the together. So I hate to go go too much into the psychology of it, but there is a
bit of psychology involved here. My humble opinion, my personal opinion, you know, these our people who... But, you know, I wouldn't make it just restricted analysis to era politics. I think there's... Actually, there's empirical research that politics. Attracts psycho in a disproportionate away. I think in psychology. I I have a friend who with a psychologist she talks about that. So there are elements that we can see there that that took place during this corrected move.
Now, again, the ideological facade is, you know, we're saving the country from these adventurous or taking it down an unknown path. Syria does not have the power to stand against the Americans Israelis the and everybody else in or the regional allies. And needs to just a reality and it needs stability. Stability becomes after assets, number 1 motto in in throughout this career, He says, look, We've had too much political change. What I'm gonna do now is is allow the state to be stable.
Which of course, wins him a section of, the old Syrian capital. A good fun, an economic avenue. Under this regime. It's not ideal for them, but stability and a bit of an opening for the private sector is is is an advantage. Assad taking power in Syria in 19 70 combined with Saddam and Bak taking power in Iraq in 68.
It really just completes the the moral and political bankruptcy of of the bath, a party that we really started this the series discussing in many ways, a party founded to be something quite different.
Why did ba take off down this road of brutal in fighting between bop of various ideological, factions between military and civilian factions and also critically between Iraqi and syrian factions, a path that ultimately brought ba to these depressing, violently oppressive authoritarian endpoints in both iraq and Syria.
Yeah. So, I mean, Daniel, this is a question that has haunted bath for many years, and, But as, of course, any serious assessment will have to look at the fact that the the party began to have a military wing and a and a civilian wing and that becomes difficult. In both Iraq and Syria, this develops. The party also had a difficult experience with the United arab Republic. It could not find the formula that that, allowed for an equilibrium with with Nasa.
It could not find the formula for having equilibrium with a communists earlier and and and with k. And, you can't just fault them for that. Of course, other players had roll with it. But, definitely, there were, different possible courses of action that might have spurred the bath a lot of a lot of disastrous results
that taking place. But the the leadership of the bath basically got increasingly marginalized and increasingly lost the plot as the party expanded and as new elements from more military as opposed to Civilian backgrounds started entering the party. At the end of the day, the party became dominated by figures that were not ideological that did not belong to the, intellectual classes.
And I'm not saying that there's... That they're not intelligent or it's a like that, but that that means that the question of political commitment is is is different here. They're grounding in the in the main principles and values that top party was founded on what's was quite was quite different. So, you know, this is a party that started out as having a base mainly amongst, young teachers That was its its main character.
And now it continues to have the this kind of, element but they're they're not the ones making the decisions. You know, it becomes increasingly state party, and a state party that is dominated by, a securities slash military way. And it will use the slogan. You might even deploy some of the ideas might even adopt some of the policies, You know, both, under of them and under said, there were elements of socialism
introduced and we should not dismiss that. There were serious experiments in introducing more egalitarian economic systems in these countries and developing the countryside and national important natural resources. And and that... That's all due to the bath tradition that these figures belong to. But that was also a accompanied by a quest for power, and by a quest for for central power. Another...
Ideological, another variant that should be looked at, and this happens to not just the bat, but other political parties. The Soviet model gets increasingly adopted, and I'm talking here structurally. All our political parties on the left or somehow neither adopting that model or trying to break away from it somehow. Maybe that's a problem across the left. So under the banner of the aquatic central, a lot of things that have nothing to do with democracy
or central take place. And that that becomes part of the phenomena. It gives ideological justification. For an the individual, quest for power. You know, So it's it's a mixed legacy. And, by the way, much of what I do has to do with also saying, we can't just purely verify what took place. We have to look at at it holistically. The the the biggest problem that that that we're left with in the 19 seventies and eighties aps under these regimes as the denial of pillar political liberty.
And and that's a significant problem because it it it it basically facilitates the markets. The second problem is we end up in, geopolitical clashes within a revolutionary camp that could have been more united. The the interference in the past revolution, and we'll talk about that in the second, produced negative results for the palestinian blues, especially by half, less so by of dumb as well.
But then you also have clashes between Syria and Iraq that come about that really affect the the the the region in very negative ways. You you have, like, all sorts of arenas in which, you know, the due geopolitics could have could have been improved on that. But then you have other aspects that have to be looked at more favorably. You had to focus on the sovereignty of the state in relation to Empire. And that's not an insignificant theme, both saddam and hu.
We're trying hard to achieve that and to protect that. You know, for all their ill. There was also, as I mentioned, some social justice elements that were included, never in a radical fashion. But, you know, definitely, there's some source of democratic institutions, some welfare state institutions that got created, you know, almost free medicine, almost free education,
some cases entirely free. You know, support for farmers, some cooperative programs, you know, and And all of these are quite important. This is Ola Family O Ty, and you're listening to the dig. You can support the podcast to patreon dot com. This episode like every episode of the dig is produced in partnership with jack Magazine. Jacob is an incredible publication. You've probably seen a lot of what they've published online, but they also have a beautiful prints magazine. It comes out quarterly.
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That's bit dot lee slash dig jack. Gem del No died in September 19 70 right in the midst of black September. This marked the demise of the most pivotal figure in this entire series. An absolutely unparalleled icon of arab nationalism, anti imperial and arab socialism. On Sad, who we will discuss in more detail later on, he took over as president. But before we get to sit up and the rest of this history briefly.
What was the immediate impact of No death, the death of the most towering figure in twentieth century arab history, really, among the most legendary figures of this higher era, third world as and revolutionary d globally. A sense of how important Nasa is can be, gained from the va with which is approached by both, by his opponents as well as the admiration that is, you know, given to him by his his supporters to this very day across the region.
And I think, again, like this tells you something about the character and and and its way. You know, I've I've I've checked the British record as on on on this era as good as anybody, and I'm I'm talking about, you know, recently d dissatisfied documents that kind of thing. And I've also had my first share of, looking at at American records, and it's clear that Nas was considered by the existing empires as the only... Or as the main serious threat. To their project. But also as somebody
that they needed to grapple with. So so from their perspective of somebody who had a regional vision. Definitely, Nasa was the leader with the most important regional vision and and and in the history that we've been we've been talking about. You know, you have some big figures operating in this period. Saudi Arabia is King Face song is very important.
Became class and Is very important. But nobody comes close to Nasa in terms of this influence is and and and his overall significance for this history as you've indicated. This does not mean that that everything is done is as is perfect or that everything is done is is bad. And as as his supporters and the director is both would would like a respectively, say. On a popular novel, it was clear that his death was a huge shock. And and his death was actually connected to black September.
You know, Nas dies as he's trying to broker a ceasefire. And as he's trying to broker a deal that would allow for an end to the fighting between the Jo Monarchy and Policy in revolution. It's clear that he might have had even some guilt because he did not intervene to stop black September from happening. You know? And this is a big debate that that that that exists mobile palestinian and circles as well as enjoy circles and elsewhere. Could not have stopped at the place.
Did he give King green light. You know, his relationship with Fed was very tense in that moment because he had accepted the Rogers plan, American plan. Which was talking about a 2 state solution and which was stock exploring with Arab states idea of negotiations along to 4 2. Among the Un resolution 242. And, of course, that leads to major demonstrations against them and mad.
And these are led by the different palestinian of blue infections, including the movement of arab Nationalists, which were his former allies. So the P p, and the Pdf p figures, all of them, whether it's H or harassment they're all rejecting it in the talking in almost insulting terms in 1 of the demos, even some people put face of a donkey on nasa's picture. There's there's some stuff that was seen as crossing many lines.
And in Pas in Auto critiques sets actually focused on because that's the 1 figure that might have been on a regional level able to stop complete crackdown. And it's 1 of the reasons why Ky also delayed. So in any case, So you have this clash with him, but he does feel guilty. You know, we know that he feels very guilty about not intervening to to to to stop the situation. He tries to broker again an agreement, and he he He he helps create the conditions for smuggling out of heart out of our man.
And, you know, he brokers an agreement in Cairo, but he stressed him out. And he wasn't sleeping throughout that time. He was very ill. He was not doing well. Some people have theories that he was poisoned. I don't actually believe that it's is is former Soviet doctor has appeared in multiple interviews where he said, look, he's suffering from a hard condition for a long time, and I kept to telling him stop working. Was a alcoholic. You you need to take some
time off and you need less stress. Otherwise we're gonna kill yourself. So that's that's an important. Issued to emphasize though that that Na death is connected to the policy and cause with which he was connected for all his life. Secondly, when he dies, something remarkable happens in the streets of our man, which was a wounded city, that had just gone through this horrible civic conflict between people who are very
close to each other. And by the way, 1 of the myths of black September is that it was Jordan versus Palestinians. Actually, there were a lot of jordan and for that infections and there were a lot of palestinians in the Jordan army. And every family has people on both sides, including mine, including others that this is part of the mythology that then gets created around it. But when Nasa dies, black flags are raised by everybody. When the fighting stops.
This is actually how the fighting stops in our man. A minute, the radio stations start putting on the put on, that's a signal that somebody biggest has died. This is what happens and by the way, the the the Middle East Like, when somebody big guys, somebody the radio broadcast stops, You have Aggressive, that means that it's a signal, and the the as death is announced. Everybody tries to scramble to find a black piece of cloth. They raise it. All of man turns into a city raising black flags.
And for that has dropped their guns, the arm drops its gone. It's a chilling moment. And when you interview people that live through it from both sides actually, they all recall it very vividly. Everybody knew that something ominous is gonna happen to the region. They were used to this leadership, whether they liked it or not whether they attacked it or not whether Critique, they knew that overall, it had created a gigantic shift away from imperial control for the first time in the region.
And that it was trying to chart an independent path, and a path that would allow for some unity and social change. Now, from a, of course, radical left this critique that change was never full and it was not... Some would say it was even close to when it should be, but there was no doubt that this was the most serious challenge to the regional order in the post war period. For the policy cause is death is a disaster because he's succeeded by an opportunistic figure.
Who was famous for changing colors all the time, a total chameleon respected widely in the west because he's a Western agent, but hated actually widely in our region. And Egypt, he has a mixed legacy of popular support in andrew because multiple regimes keep on recycling. Is image is 1 of somebody who who's opened new opportunities for aging, but we can talk about that in a sec. And what Said that, Of course, is the person we're talking about.
In 19 71 in the wake of black September, the P established its new headquarters in beirut. How did the P o respond to the events of black September and Jordan. What what sort of blow was it to lose its base there? And then how did they decide to move forward in Lebanon? So in the case of, discussion within the P, The problem with the loss of Jordan is that you lost several hundred kilometers of of of borders with the Israeli settle colonial stay.
And you've also lost something that people referred to as as, the starch tank of the revolution in a way. It's it's or that's the wrong word word maybe the spring of their evolution. Like something like, like, you know, it's like, it's where you have the largest Palestinian numerical presence anywhere outside of Palestine. It's a huge presence. I mean, even if if you look at the world's map today, a man would count as the
world's largest Palestinian city. Bigger than jerusalem them bigger than nab less bigger than have grown, bigger it's it's in purely statistical terms. It's a huge number of Palestinians in this country. So they constitute at least have the population if not, by some estimates much higher than that. So that's something significant. You also lost a population that is bank. Damian who are very committed. To their revolution. So also you had big section that would have fought with you from
there. And and and and this had like disastrous for strep repercussions. So the only area that was left where there could be. Any form of independent pal of revolutionary action or margin for independent pas action was lebanon on now. There, the of Revolution had to undergo a series of re. Of what took place in Jordan, and how it could do things better now that it moved to 11. 1 of the main themes that were discussed in Jordan or in relation to the to the way
of working in Jordan. Was that in Jordan the pass the Jordan national movement got absorbed into the palestinian of revolutionary structures. And that became like an the area for soft critique and for Auto critique because, they were saying that allowed or made it easier for the regime to use the logic of local nationalism to crack down on their evolution.
You know, if you say this is about Palestinians and it's what do we have to do with them, And and, you know, if you try to create, you know, for big feeling around that, while encouraging the logic of the state sovereignty, that's made easier. If you don't have a clear set of organizations that operate under Jordan damien banner, And, of course, he's existed in the 19 fifties very strongly. We talked about them before.
But by the time we enter the period of 6 7 to 70 most of their caters that entry passing organizations or established off shields that were operating in the past year of blue revolutionary. Like, good example would be the bath. Look at the bath. They they established a sai the leader of Sai is actually... The guy
who establishes it. It's an East Banker Ruth damien, very highly respected by everyone Ba Za, He ends up by the way, as assessed Jail for as as a result of the corrective move is is a member of the national leadership of the bat. But he's operating under Sai, which is a palestinian information that is that gay membership in the P. There is a cons member of the P o. This phenomena applies to the air nationalist applies to the
deficit. It applies even to sections of the communists because it's a split in the communist party actually. Enjoy the 1. So this is an issue that in Lebanon, they're careful not to do. They start operating incorporation with what was called, Lebanese National Mo. Yeah. And in Lebanon, besides creating the alliance with existing popular forces there, which was,
of course, very important. For them given what had transpired earlier jordan, and deciding not to fold them into the P o. Which could have been a of course of action, of course, a potential 1. There was another set of decisions where taken place relating to developing different aspects of the Palestinian revolution that were social aspects. And and really, this is something that is very important to consider, when we look at the history past evolution.
Most people look at it from a military perspective and from a diplomatic perspective. But it's so important to focus also on the social dynamics, the popular mobilization dynamics. The fact that you had a growth in the women's union, a major growth, a restructuring of it actually.
So, after Jordan, by the way, when when the exit to beirut ruth, happens, you have major, changes where different branches of the union start you know, operating, there's structure where the the national structure exists, but also local structures are operating, You have much bigger budgets invested in that, more people are allocated walls organizing roles same for the workers union. Same for gaps, the general union of past students. It's operating on a huge level.
All the training camps expand when it comes to, the ideological dimensions, so you have, now cater schools established both for a fat and for the P p. At the medical side is expanded. And and some scholars refer to it as a phenomena of state building, is it side in particular use from that prism. I actually disagree with that. I think what was happening was a deepening of, revolutionary building. And you cannot have revolutionary mobilization.
Without having an intimate relationship, with the masses out of which their evolution is gonna come. That was the kind of realization. That most pal organizations we're arriving at, and they've really learned that from the experience of of of Jordan. That you needed to build from the bottom up, you needed to expand the social work and and really work the organizations in society.
So this coincided with an event that took place in Lebanon under the banner of, you, or the title of the, deli liberation of the camps. In 19 69, I had this remarkable process taking place across the past senior refugee camps at Lebanon, where, essentially, the P o launched an armed rebellion against the presence of the Lebanese army inside the palestinian caps. And the camps now had their own internal self governance. So the Lebanese army could not. Enter them. And, of course, Enemies Army used
to harass people there. They to arbitrarily. Arrest people, these camps were under the harsh control of the Z bureau, which used to wreak havoc in them. People were not allowed to build. People were not allowed to to talk any congregation more than 2 people would be counted as illegal. There were so many restrictions on people's lives. And that ended.
With with this operation, which included, by the way, even, enable landing in in some of the camps There were, you know, there were innovative moves that led to the liberation of of of their caps. And and and we end up with you know, a situation where, first, the P has a strong power base in these camps, which are spread across the country.
But secondly, It's also establishing, strong grounding amongst communities that had been marginalized by Lebanon sec formula, And in particular, I'd been marginalized by the French effort to create mara dominance in Lebanon.
Now, of course, there were different degrees of allegiance to the past, revolution or connection to it but you saw that it had some natural allies, in the sense that, for example, the leadership of shi communities tended to be very sympathetic to it, but more importantly, that the people themselves partly because most Shi populations were in the south, in the of lebanon that borders is Palestine and that had very intimate connections with it. A lot of them
had worked in Palestine before 48. A lot of them had inter married with Palestinians. So there was that social dimension that was very strong there. But then you also had so communities at Allied pas is sometimes for religious reasons that that they belong to the same sack that they they saw Palestinians scenes as a natural ally in in improving their own sex position. But others for progressive reasons. Because they belong to more radical movements and so on.
You had you know, within Christian communities, it was more likely that you would get less hostility from the orthodox church, for example, and other communities that that had strong bases in Palestinian and society as well. Of course the rules leadership was aligned with the revolution and some people give it an ideological interpretation, you know, that out of lot. Wanted to see 11 on free of sec and so their evolution as a major ally in
that. Others give it, you know, more real interpretation saying that he was trying to operate in arena so Pas evolution is helping him with the balance of power and lebanon. Regardless of the reason, however, you have all of these communities operating with with the past years. And then you have an anti secondary tradition, and we've referred to it earlier, all of the major left wing parties want to support their evolution and and the palestinians. So B starts working with them.
And then so it's it's creating... First of all, social mobilization amongst its own ranks, but also it's contributing to that. They aforementioned Lebanese communities and political circles. But secondly, it's it's building as strong alliance with existing liberty groups that that did not see the status quo as sustainable or desirable. And, thirdly, it was trying to learn from the lessons of the experience in and jordan as as it was pursuing both. Tracks. That same year in in 19 71,
that the P established. It's it's new headquarters in in Beirut. A Palestinian organization called black September was launched, and it carried out various killings, hostage shaking, plain hijacking, sabotage, most spectacularly the killing and kidnapping of members of the Israeli team at the 19 72 munich Olympics. How did this organization emerge and what were the connections between the P and in the organization?
Black September. And then and then lastly, what were the broader movements assessments of of the organization and the tactics? That it employed? Yeah. So it's I must say Daniel, it's a very western question that you were you're asking here. I I know that your, anti colonial and spirit, body and mind, so so we'll forgive you for that. But but in In reality, unfortunately, in discussions are on Palestine, you're bound to get some some colonial thinking entering any conversation in in the Us.
So I'm glad you are asking this question for that reason. Because I I think we need to correct the way we look at these things. First of all, Black September is a marginal phenomena imp in history as an organization. But it takes up a lot of space and discussions of the pas revolution in the West because most discussions in the palestinian and of the p revolution in the West.
Are not interested in their evolution itself. This grand phenomena that mobilize hundreds of thousands of a refugee people. Disperse people who I've been destroyed, exile from his land, oppressed, and I was trying to itself in reagan regain its homeland. Achieve liberation and return all the while playing a huge revolutionary role in the region, which belong. You know, that that population, all of its
activities are reduced to terrorism. And and the favorite subjects tend to be terror organizations. The case of, black September, that wasn't actually not related to the P0P0 is an umbrella group. And we've described it before. It's not even a group. It's supposed to be in the national or representative of the palestinian people, but it it is comprised of organizations that that that are cons organizations of the P and that are represented in his in its different structure.
The parliament in Exile, which is Pas National Council That's highest authority. Those groups are represented in it alongside independence and and alongside representatives of the different ba Unions. But and they're also a representative of the executive committee of the P and and, of course, the the top leadership, which is of office of the chairman. But that does not mean that you can say this or that group is is the P.
Okay? Now, Fat, which is 1 of the largest groups in the P. Like September is an shoot of the fat organization. But its relationship with it is very murky. Definitely, there were figures that play the cure role in it, in particular, about the wood. And definitely, key their figures about, yeah, add add a connection. With that process. You know, that that that is clear.
I was seen on the internal arena, as fat offs shoot that would compete with the P piece offs shoot, which is the external operations. And they both enjoyed the certain level of autonomy in a way. You know, they were working without going back necessarily to the highest authorities within their respective organizations, they both had a focus on, a very tactical focus. They were focused on things like hijacking, they were focused on assassination and and so on. Assassination were
mainly focused on the arab arena. There weren't that many of them, but the the the 1, of course, that was most influential was assassination of was fatal done, which was Jordan's prime minister, and a figure that was seen as, overseeing post black September, formula in Jordan. And that and, you know, he was associated with the Black September policy very strongly.
That figure is is, of course, the most important by the way, Figure for the Jordan damien right now, and and he's seen as he's most important figure also for the a tradition jordan that emphasizes Jordan national separate ness from broader Palestinian Jordan Society. So so so and that local nationalism that we were talking about, it's often associated with with with Was. Although Fyi, Like, he hey, he had the different tradition. He... It was involved in more pan or
projects before. We can talk about that. If we want to later on. But so he is a more complex figure than he's presented by both the passing Mnuchin and the with authorities. In many cases, that assassination was the biggest event actually in the arena that they were engaged in. On the international front, you mentioned Munich that was indeed an operation. What they would say is that they didn't
actually killed the athletes. They intended to exchange them for the palestinian hostages at lay in israeli Jail, and we consider all of them to be hostages, by the way, because they're taken out of their homes are taken out. They're arrested by Real authorities, and there's thousands of it of them at any given moment. So So that was the outlook at the time
on the part of organizations, like that. Of course, israeli authorities then push for an operation in which there was an armed confrontation, and and these athletes were were were killed. The reason why I say this is is is actually it has contemporary relevance. There's... If you look at what is happening in Gaza today in relation to those that where those israelis that are where they can Biomass Bahamas.
There a situation, of course, is they're subjected to the hannibal doctrine often, even some of the people that were killed in K kombucha surrounding us on October 7 were subjected to the Hannibal doctrine. The idea that in an in a situation, in a hostage situation, as israeli authorities would rather kill both the hostage takers and the hostages because they don't want, any negotiations to take place. They would they prefer
that over exchanges or negotiations, which this... They deemed to be signs of weakness. So rather than treating these things politically, some some people approach them as purely a way of saying the past their evolution is immoral. But the reality is, of course, all of this is is is political. None no none of this scene is not embedded in politics. And we noticed this from the case of Ireland, other cases
like that. You know, there were English people that would say, though what's only discussion of the Ira was Bombing in Manchester or attacks on on civilians. But but then the bigger questions get lost in in that. Equation. In any case, what also gets lost is, the fact that these were not the groups were central to the overall revolutionary if it on. This was just 1 tactic out of many. The main feature of actually the pas revolution.
At that time, was the mobilization of troops that would operate as gorilla fighters? And and that's on the military side? On, the social side, it was the mobilization of Palestinian society as a whole. That's why you always add critiques internally towards black September and also the external relations branch of the P within their own organizations. Those critiques different than the western ones. They were not qui contest. You know, they were not saying like, where
are doing terrorism Right? They were not more realistic in character. But what they were, contest was was was the question of how beneficial is this for their evolution? Can you carry out our evolution with plain hijacking and and an assassination here or there? The answer from those involved organization, as well, israelis do that all the time. They've assassinated way more. They've done all of that. Was not necessarily convincing to all past revolutionaries
or the... Even the majority of them because there was this view that And what's the priority and the number 1 priority is to increase the military capacity of the revolution on the ground, to be able to create a major buildup where you could confront the Israeli forces in a long term People. How was it that this framework first took cold and then developed that that is Israeli violence was legitimate and always inherently a matter of self defense while all Palestinian violence was is a form
of terrorism. This doesn't mean of course, that 1 cannot morally object to certain actions taken by whatever faction for the long history of armed struggle, but But after all, it was colonial in zion violence that ethnically qui as much of Palestine of its indigenous population. And that has continued to do so in 19 67, and then ever since then, and, of course, since 19 48, Israel has killed far, far, far more Palestinians. Than Palestinians have killed
Israelis. It's just a be labor a point that's obvious to anyone who's got into this point in the series. How and when though did this framework take root and become such common sense in the west? I mean, it was used earlier it was used as early as as the beginnings of the of the British mandate. And, of course, and was... It continued to be used whenever there was opacity in uprising or evolution. So so we see it every time. There's anything like that.
And definitely, in the 19 seventies, the external operations and the operations of black September both external operations of P and extra under operation back September, bring the the cost of the of what's going on in Palestine to the West. Of course, that was part of their logic. I didn't mention this bit. You know, we mentioned it an earlier episode. For the P p, it was the the notion of chasing the enemy everywhere, and including in the countries that they saw a sponsoring israeli estate.
So so if the West is sponsoring this real estate and gets away with it every time. It never feels any social cost to it any political cost that was the kind of argument that they were that they were approaching there. Of course, that allowed then Western governments to say these are international terrorists in a way, much of the security setup in airports and so on belongs to that period because of passing operations, so that's by product.
Of course, as as we know states of exception become part of everyday life and and and that comes out of, of course, that that period. So definitely, policy get more absorbed in terms of if earlier they they just were erased from the picture. During the the fifties and sixties. And then you suddenly start hearing the word Palestine 1 the time when you have battle of, and and, you know, you have, like, some pas independent military capacity developing. But then it becomes a big discussion with
these operations. And that was, of course, the argument of people like like September and the external operations in Beautifully. They were saying, these people are trying to erase us. So only these operations will allow them to talk about Palestine. They are forced to talk about it. Others, of course, Had the assessment in the past Irene arena. They were saying there's other ways of making them talk about it and making them
stop their support for this Israeli state. So this this course, though the the that you referred to, Daniel. I wanna mention another point that's important to know. It is not just restricted to palestinians. And it comes out of a broader anti colonial dynamic that starts actually with the Americas And and IIIII really think that that we have to emphasize this point.
It's the day before July fourth, and that's a day that sometimes Americans read the declaration of independence and they can read right there that 1 of the North American settle colonists rationale for rebelling against the king of England. Was a total projection of violent tendencies onto the colonized victim of the colonize violence. Here's the here's the here's the actual text.
This is amongst the the the complaints against the king He has excited domestic instructions amongst us and is endeavor to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the Mer Indian savages. Whose known rule of warfare is an un distinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions. Absolutely. And and then, you know, the other interesting thing about that, of course, is in the meantime, in in the american revolution, we have the right to bear arms being celebrated, and the
discussions around that. And the right to... Their colonists to go and fight for their liberty. So their right to practice violence is is in ent us and celebrate as far as their concerned. You know, if if we're talking about American comments, if we're talking about any, let's say, major, group that belongs to these countries that are the western countries, except for the irish, of course, they're always they're always treated because they're colonized, they're treated
in a different way. But if it's a colon nation, then it has a right to practice violence. And and and it's know, and we've seen it. Like, I mean, I always mentioned this in in lectures in my in my class when I talk about these dimensions. Of course, nowadays students don't watch Western, But maybe you you did the daniel at some point or they used to put them on Tv
you know, across the world. And It's always the Indians are attacking a train, so called indians, of course, attacking a train, you know, so it's indigenous people fighting, for no reason, attacking for no reason, and they're usually killing an innocent white women or... And then they're scalp and they're whatever. And nobody talks about, well, what's the train doing there? And and how did it get
there? And and and also, you know, so this is a part of the pattern so it's not just palestinians that are subjected to this starts with indigenous people of this country. It includes also enslaved people in this country, mean, look at all the discussions around, instead people's rebellions, and it becomes becomes about you know, their violence. It's not it's not but they're subjected to the worst violence that has been known
in history. This evil institution that that something I mean, we don't need to expo on it because I I believe in the dig, you you you you talk about it all the time. But I mean, I I can't think of a more evil institution in a human history. You know, it's like unbelievable violence. It's based on violence. Everything about it is well... But no. It's... Oh, these sick people are the problem. So it becomes a
African Americans has become the problem. And and, of course, you know, whenever a people is sub, for the for the I imperialist and the colonial, that's that's part of the logic. Now, that's why it's not coincidental dental by the way, that in the literature on the laws of war, the main challenge to this came actually from Professor. So so who happens to have been my... To be my mentor, actually. I mean, Carmen sea. She just got honor actually in the British society from eastern studies for her
lifetime achievements. But she had actually written a great book called traditions of war, occupation resistance in in the law, And it's about precisely that. How the different traditions of war come about. And and this even happens in Europe. In fact, Karma shows that the laws of war were privileged in Imperial powers within europe even they started actually through doing that. So they were geared against the poles in the eighteenth century they were geared against, the cor and the
republic that was established there. They were designed to to to allow for colonial violence and imperial violence and to prevent resistance on the part of people that that that are in a different structural position. And that that applies definitely to the palestinian people. Before we get to the October war of 19 73, what what more generally did the Guerrilla struggle against Israel look like during this period and in between black September and the October war of 19 73.
And then how was israel? Responding. 1 what notable Israeli tactic was assassination. An assassination campaign that included really important cultural figures, like the P p leader in Poet Ga Con, who was killed alongside his 17 year old niece by a massage carb bomb in Beirut in in 19 72? Yeah. So in this period, the vast majority of operations were actually Geared towards establishing first of all, at presence in the areas border Palestine, which meant in the Lebanese east South.
Then carrying out reconnaissance your unit unit work inside the areas across the border. Which were under the control of the Israeli colonial state, and sometimes carrying out the attacks in those areas. So that... Those are the 3 types of the main the main kind of types of operations that we're going on. For the most part, actually, most attacks happen inside Lebanese territory where you had Israelis bombarding, or or carrying out actions.
And sometimes, these were actions that that that took on the form you just described your assassination attempts. So so if you wanna look at it structurally because this is what people sometimes miss? They say, well, where where is the effectiveness? Why it wasn't it a, you know, and they make comparisons with stuff that happened much later, like the say has Ba 2006.
And and what what what is forgotten is that actually much of the period of the palestinian presence lebanon was geared towards establishing? Military presence in the south. So that was a struggle in its own right. Because it meant that you had to overcome Lebanese army restrictions to overcome israeli raids and bombardment, which were constant. You had to carry out, you know, very complex set of negotiations with the local villagers and the local societies surrounding.
Nevertheless, you had bases or established, you had operations beginning to commence. And then, you know, in that context, you also had to explore the territory. So from a military perspective, there was a lot that needed to be done. And and and much of it had to do with setting up an infrastructure. That could be later deployed effectively at carry out bigger operations. In the meantime, you also needed small operations that would accumulate to ensure that their mobilization would grow.
So we had this dimension that was going on. You needed to inspire in the masses the idea that there are operations happening every day, you're joining a movement isn't just a pointless activity actually, because people wanted to fight. But if you're a milk military plan, you understood that there's more to this than just an immediate fight. Actually, you needed to build capacity. So, you know, there there were all sorts of, you know, dimensions to this to this process.
But israelis were throughout their main objective was to prevent the emergence of a serious infrastructure that could then, create a a direct threat to them. And as that infrastructure became increasingly possible. That's when they really made sure to go all out. And go and route it out completely, which was, of course, there's really an invasion of 82, which we'll talk about later on. Yeah. So you had another is israeli that mentioned that was going
on. Was presented as responding to capacity action, but really it's part of a more comprehensive competitive policy. Has nothing to do with responding. With with the assassination of intellectual, and and leading P figures. So the the the big events in this regard, you know, we have multiple ones. And they kept on going by the way, Crypto happening.
And you know, this is where black September, the organization you asked about also enters into the equation because it it becomes, like, there's this constant struggle around assassination abroad that that that they're connected to to. But locally in in in in the region in Beirut. You have a great intellectual. The the an amazing pas in novel list, really like a agenda 1, A second Fannie, And I really encourage people to read him because he writes from a very sensitive human lens.
Like, for example, returning to Hai, is a very short novel, but it has this incredible dynamic between and family from hai and and the Holocaust surviving Jewish family that comes and takes up their home. And and they have this dialogue over a lost son of the other family that gets adopted by the Jewish family. So it's like a an incredible, but but by the way, It's a it's a Novel. And that also understands, the Jewish plight in Europe very sensitive. This is somebody
who's an international. This is somebody who, establishes the P piece main, political, you know, organ, the newspaper, After the split between, the D and the P, Pi loses, of course, the the the its main mouthpiece, which was a, which was the mouthpiece of the move Arab and a nationalist. So then now they have to move and establish their own outfit. That can of fan he does that. He establishes and hud of the the the goal.
He's pursuing Marxist islamist analysis. He's discussing all sorts of intellectual issues, liberation, of women and social liberation is is incredible and intellectual. You know, truly great novel. Anyways, this person, of course, had been from Y in 19 48. Had lived a life of constant struggle ends up losing his life at a at a very, very, young age and and his niece gets killed with him in in a car exposure. They start saying, well, he's a spokesperson for a
terrorist organization doesn't that. Which is, of course, the usual. Logic. But by losing him, we lost a great intellectual figure. And that's part of the pattern that we refer to as sc, you know, the of intellectual thinkers, the killing of scholars, the murder of of educators. The destruction of universities and schools, from k to 12 from from from first year of University to to to Phd, all of that happens systematically. So,
it's assassination of Ken in 70. Now Of course, sadly enough, and this is AAA very sad story. K. When can I find it gets assassinated, it gets featured on the pages of f, which is the, the the main P o publication organ? But it doesn't get featured enough, So their editor came command master is a friend, poet from Federer. But it it create a wonderful poet. You know, he he he wants to... He was, like, how dare you're not feature. And, absolutely go and do, like, a big
feature. You know, like it they... And he says, like, he wants to be buried next to him, if he ever gets killed and, of course, come Las was a was a Christian and kind finding his most of them normally people are buried in separate s threes. But but they did end up getting burned next to each other in in the March Graveyard then Beirut. I mean, there's for any visitor tomato, you'll find so many evolutionary figures there, including this 1, and these 2, great palestinian riders.
And Ka gets assassinated the following year as part of the the what was perhaps the most important assassination attempt because it killed, he was primarily targeted for military reasons. But, you know, of course, it's legitimate to target people in their homes regardless.
But he had been heading something that was called the Western sector, the dial that'd be, which is a a section of further that was organizing responsible for organizing the buildup of revolutionary capacity and the occupied territories of that West Bank and gu. So so they were called the Western section. They... So he was, clearly a major target of the Israelis because they did not want to see our evolution
after there eventually. So... But that assassination actually causes a shift in the policy of the P o in Lebanon. And this is quite consequential because what becomes clear is that these authorities are not protecting p seeing and political figures in the in lebanon in Beirut, and that's their job. So the P starts increasingly bringing in armed units to protect its main leaders in this area. Okay? And its offices and other establishments and installations.
That brings it away from the countryside in the south and more into the capital Beirut, which creates an element of contradiction, with the Lebanese state that gets heightened or and more is presence in the urban areas gets felt much more. After this assassination. Let's turn to the 19 73 October war when Syria and Egypt, both of which had territories occupied by Israel since 19 67 launched a combined attack against Israel with the Us strongly backing Israel and the Soviets
behind the Arab states. The war the war wasn't exactly an Israeli defeat and yet yet it rein arab political and military confidence and humbled Israel. The war also prompted arab oil producing states, not not the entirety of Opec, but but it's arab members led by Saudi Arabia to impose an oil embargo on the United States and other countries aligned with Israel. Why did the war play out the way that it did operationally?
And then geopolitical in terms of both this regional balance of forces between Israel and the Palestinians and the Arab states and also this larger balance of forces of the global cold war? Right. So you know, we need we need to remind our listeners, Daniel of something we mentioned before, which is after 67. Of course, the arab states lost a lot of land belonging to them. And that included, of course, Egypt and Syria. Egypt lost sinai peninsula, which was so important for Egypt.
Syria lost the Heights. The whole situation was a total mess that Israelis were enjoying this period where they were pretending to be you know, in in in, like, a a force that is above the law, but also cannot be defeated. There was this mythology around it. An Officer had actually initiated a program to confront that. He was trying to encourage the Soviet Union with which he was live to give him better weapons.
He was occurring out a massive, attempt to rebuild the army, along new lines, more effective lines. He had initiated at what what what was known as a as an as a war of attrition on the under the boundaries to prepare for something bigger. So there was this situation where it was clear that the states could not stand still when large spots their tertiary were lost, especially egypt and and and answer. This effort, of course, continued to re arm and rebuild the military both countries continued
after the death of Masa. And better along the lines that were set out, by him. So that and was determined to to carry out action in knew that it was needed. But, of course, he had a different vision for action, than the 1 that Nasa did or than the 1 that is new partner half as an asset in Syria had. So that considered that, the Americans.
Held keys to the region, and that he wanted to carry out a war that would lead to the initiation of a peace process that would result in the return off Egyptian territory. So this was his model. So a limited war was what he was trying to achieve. In the case of I have as an asset, you wanted a word that would bring back the Go, which would mean, like, a more determined, like, you know, vibration war. At least for syrian territories.
Now the realities on the ground meant you know, so that's vision eventually 1, because he he he war without him could not take place. You know. So you know, the same goes, there's no word without Egypt and no peace without Syria that was coming from that period. You know, you can't carry out, like a serious challenge with this israeli state the the major, military intervention or on the part of of Each egypt. At least when it comes to classical armies.
Wars. And to do that, of course, better weapons needed to be achieved and and procured from the Soviets, Eventually, so that does a there's a trick to do that. It takes a tough stance with them as as h notes, he calls it, like, the top stance with the with the Soviet friend, mark firm For Soviet. That's how we framed it. You know, so so you needed ex of Soviet experts and creating a whole drama to be able to get greater commitment from the Soviets.
Because something like this, obviously acquired very strong weaponry, and acquired the air cover. And and, essentially, the war required crossing the canal, Suez canal. And and this this was this is a very expensive thing to do. Once the weaponry is procured and secured and once the plans happen, The plan was actually very effectively implemented. It's israelis thought that there was no war.
There was even a betrayal to both Syria and Egypt, Jordan king Hussein went to golden here and warned her, he thought he would get some credits out of that. But, luckily for for their regions you'd ignored them, and did not believe him. Others, you know, like, you know, there were some israeli spies that were suggesting there was war. There was this thinking that Wasn't gonna hack on the part of this Israeli government.
But it did happen. And israelis we're only able to push back the the the the Syrian Egyptian forces as a result of, huge, huge, enormous American commitment, like an an a massive air lift it was established, of weapons and and and support of all kinds. And, of course, you know, kissing was behind, much of that policy. And, you know, this starts a tradition in American politics, of course.
Of committing weapons to Israel more than the combined weaponry of the of the all the Arab States around So so you know, it continues to this day, by the way, this commitment. It's from from from the United States. So that's orchestrated. In that context. But despite the fact that you have this, Us sponsor pushback, 1 1 political, and despite the fact that and this is the focus actually of many air political comment. That's so that could have gone further.
He could have actually had he allowed Egyptian troops to proceed much further into the depths of the Israeli estate. Who knows it could have reached the aviv. We don't know. That's realistic or not. But like, you know, they could have gone for, at least further than they did. And that's basically the the the line has taken by even 1 of the main Egyptian figures at the time the later of the army sadly, and his in his
memoirs and testimony. He he says, like, look, this was, we were politically stopped as an army. We could have gone further. Now was certainly the position of H. You he felt tricked. He felt that said that did not want to win the war. He just wanted to initiate a political process. And that he did. He got kissing engaged with him.
There was a tall shallow diplomacy suddenly after the war there was all the discussion of, like, okay, we need a peaceful conference because these states, okay, this time they didn't push the war further. But if if there's no pillar political process, maybe they will. In the future. Another major
work could break up. Yeah. I wanna I wanna talk about the diplomatic situation that played out throughout the 19 seventies in the wake of the October war, and and there are a lot of moving pieces here, some of which you were just getting into. First, I wanna talk about the the larger regional geopolitics and specifically how they fit into the global cold war.
And then I wanna get into how the P approach approached these questions and and the intense debates that all provoked within the Palestinian national movement.
So so first, after 19 73, what were the Soviet in Ames in the region in general and regarding Palestinians in particular, my sense, and and please correct me if I'm wrong, my sense, is that the Soviets essentially accepted the zion conquest of the 19 48 territories, what what in mainstream ideological loaded western, language would be described as, quote unquote, accepting Israel's right to exist.
In other words, the Soviets were not at all dedicated to liberating the entirety of Palestine or or to the Pillows vision of a singular democratic state, they wanted some form of comprehensive settlement that included AA2 state solution.
And then on the Us end, it seems as though Henry Kissing, who's who served under both Nixon and then Ford that he was driven by an overwhelming desire to ice Palestinians and the P out of any Arab israeli negotiations and then settlement and then for any settlement of the Palestinian union question to be essentially imposed on the P, and that motivated by that and the objective of just driving the Soviets out of the Middle East entirely despite the Us pretending to be committed to D
dupont. Is is this right? How do you assess the the Us and Soviet Ames and and posture here? Right. So so you right to say that the Soviets were committed to a 2 state solution, and and and It's not a 2 state solution that that that ran along Palestinian alliance. And for in many ways, they they they had accepted as a colonial state, as you in 19 48. They never questioned
the right of that state to continue. They even accepted the expansion of the territory of that state beyond the boundaries that were given to it by the Un. And so essentially, we have the Soviets supporting. They wanted the pass the and state of over to emerge and 67, along 67 lines. And that's, of course, after the past seen revolution starts working. Because before that they weren't even talking about Palestine and Palestinians.
You know, everybody was just pretending that it's just a an issue between Jordan and Egypt and the Israeli state. So it's an arab israel israeli conflict, not a palestinian zion is conflict. The Americans had a different outlook. The the the Americans keep on talking about a to solution. But the honest truth is they've they've long been supporting and structurally. Just an Israeli solution... Is israeli any solution that would circumvent capacity.
They they want to have Israel accepted by surrounding our countries, especially Henri kissing, you know, he plays a big role in this. And and interestingly enough, by the way, Endo Kissing spends the entirety the seventies ensuring the past and don't have a place on the table. And recently, in interviews after October seventh. The main point that you kept on making is Hamas cannot have a seat on the table in this context.
David... And and this is very interesting because that's his whole outlook. Is no matter what you keep the palestinians out. You know, of course, use committed zion. We know this is an anti arab person is incredibly racist. You know, like, in an imperial, see committed crimes of Vietnam. It's not just it's not just particular to this region. This is this is a very typical and imperialist character, but but of a of of a of
the heavyweight. Like, it's like you know, you get these characters like the churchill shows and the kissing it done so much damage globally that, you know, it's really unfortunate. But, of course, Palestine was part of the damage they created and and and it's severe. But in the case of Palestine, what they've done to our people is it's just awful.
And and I wish they would be tried, but unfortunately, they tend to live long and healthy lives and and live in fancy mansions and and that's 1 of the sad realities of the world we live in. That imperial and capitalist drive while others you know, die, unfortunately. But, of course, I'm an opt, Daniel, and I, like, a overstate, you know, I I do think that this should not be personalized as well because these are representatives of structures of power
that exists in our world. And And and and I I do I do believe that 1 day... The these structures will be overthrown in the case of of Palestine and in other cases. The same way that that Kissing was defeated in Vietnam and his likes. They they will eventually be defeated in in Palestine. And what's important for us is not their defeat, but the victory of the people, and the freedom of the people themselves, You know, so that's what matters. And equality for everyone there.
So in any case, equality was not something these people believe in. They wanted to settle a colonial state that would have we incorporated into the region accepted by it at the expense of the people... The indigenous population there. The P o it's entire diplomacy in this period is geared towards ensuring that it gets a place on the table. And to do that, it has a bunch of steps that it needs to make. First of all, it needs to gain air recognition that is more official than it had before.
So prior to this period, there is our support for that establishment with the Appeal of course, But there's a lot of tension around who represents passing people because of the fact that a cons member of the Arab bleak, Jordan Ash kingdom. Jordan claims that it represents the west back. And this becomes a big, you know, problem. They're opposed to P representation. So, the aftermath of the 73 war, we see an effort to increase our recognition, through the Arab league and that gets secured.
Okay. So you have the situation where the arab league adapts passes recognition. And then that pave way for recognition in the United Nations through inviting the Chairman of the P to address it. And and that becomes the famous 19 74 speech that our fuck gives there.
I think that that kissing knew that that he could start, like, AAA process that that the minute he opens the door of the Us to these regional states, they will exit the Soviet or They a understood very well that most of these states went to the Soviet orbit, not by choice, but out of necessity. In case of Egypt, definitely.
With the Syrian, he he he also understood that half of that Asset was a realist, and and that and that he's not necessarily wedded to the Soviet union And you wants syrian sovereignty and and and he does not trust the United States, but he will engage with the United States on a bunch of files, and he did. As was the case, of course, in the Syrian entry at lebanon 76. So But but some of this scholarship now just sent that are aren't cold war dynamics.
I actually think that the main thing that because considering was doing was bolstering the Israeli estate. That his anchoring point here. Following up on that last question, was Kissing approach here motivated by by cold war ambitions specifically to push the Soviet Union out of the Middle East? Or was this more a matter of Henry Kissing own ideological commitment to Israel, his personal ideology him being an art and zion. There's definitely daniel elements of cold war
mentality in operation here. And, of course, the cold war always plays a big role in American politics. And Kissing was very involved in it. But there's also a specificity for a kissing dealing with, the Israeli state specifically when it comes. To its place in the Middle East. And I think a lot of this scholarship assumes or presume that There's only 1 way of conducting a cold war in this region. And that way is to support Israel. That that is not the case.
Con entire policy was geared towards strengthening the Israeli state, side lining the Palestinians from the entire equation. And conducting essentially, a situation where arab states, are, broken up where they they cannot present the unified front, and of course, the unifying front in arab politics at the time was was was the Palestine. Question Now, why I say is so important to think about this in more nuanced ways than usual.
I happen to be 1 of the people that has checked consistently histories of the air bright and how they talk to Empire. Based on documents, based on their internal deliberations, with the Empire. And when you look at the ways in which our right us communicating at the time. With the american empire I remember, these are the people that you'd want to focus on in the cold war. People like King f. People like the gulf rulers. People like even king Hussein and others.
The emphasis in all of their deliberations with the United States and with its ally Britain, was on the fact that there's israeli state is a liability. That it is opening up many spaces for descent for the spread of communist ideas for alignment with the Soviet Union. I mean, let us not forget why is it? That every arab state that took a radical path during
to the Soviet Union. Initially, it had to do with armament and initially, it had to do with armament that were connected very much to the wars with the with the Israeli state. Now, that does not mean that there were not radical forces that sought, some form of arrangement with the Soviet Union in the arab region, based on a revolutionary program that had what people would have called it the time Were ambitions.
So, you know, there there was you know, in the seventies, you had all of this discussion on the part of the more radical arab movements, especially in the auto critiques. Saying, look, the the the the small was the elements that entered into the revolutionary struggled. There they wanted agricultural reform and land form. They wanted genuine sovereignty, none alignment, is a call component of that.
And they wanted a situation where there would be a bigger horizon for cooperation in the region and possibly even integration when it comes to the air nationalist side of it. So Their demands were enhanced, of course, by, an arrangement that would bring the soviet union into the picture precisely because the Us was opposed to these kind of visions globally not just in
this part of the world. However, some of their demands were not incompatible with certain Us visions because the number 1, and most important objective for the Us in this region at the time was Gulf foil. And that meant that what you needed was a stabilization program. And if that meant dealing with some of the social questions that were posed by radical movements, there could have been arrangements
reached by Empire. I'm not promoting the line here by the way that revolutionary movements should have cooperated with Empire, and they didn't, and they didn't want to, and they shouldn't have. Because at the end of the day, the the Us has been an enemy of of progress in this part of the world and and revolution. In in its official policies, not, of course, the People necessarily.
But when it comes to the question of, of, Israel and zion, there was always a different logic in operation and that was very ideological. That that question about kissing really leads into the broader question of what motivated such overwhelming Us support for Israel.
It's a really classic question that continues to divide people on the left was wasn't is is real important to the Us because it's an instrument of Us power in the region or or was it wasn't an is it that the Israel lobby causes the Us to so strongly support Israel beyond what is quote, unquote, objectively strategic for the Us Say, quote unquote is obviously strategic interest, objective, strategic interests are are contingent
and constructed. But zooming out, what what more broadly does create this relationship and are there changes that we should be noting historically in the Us approach to Israel into the Palestinian question from between, say, 19 48 and where we are now in this history, the the 19 seventies. I mean, what is what is striking the Daniel in left discussions at the moment on this is, first of all, there lack of engagement with the serious history.
They're based on you know, positions that are already pre formulated and pre fabric. And and Also, what I find striking about them is there actually lack of serious marxism. Because and by marxism, I mean, the way Marx used to treat things. So, Marc when he was dealing with political questions, of course, including geopolitical questions. He was accounting for the the way the social interest and the political interest interact in any given space.
Okay? And and and he was... Able... He he had very nuanced approaches to that. We see very little of that when it comes to analysis of this question. It's either a very vulgar econ understanding of imperial in the region. So Israel is needed because oh, the oil. Well, I mean, any color of the gulf that really checks the documents on the Gulf will know that... Or or or has a basic understanding of how gulf oil was controlled.
Will tell you that there was no need whatsoever for Israel when the Us setup, it's it's Saudi operations in the 19 thirties or when Britain was setting up its entire regional system that that pre dates, even this the Zion project when it comes to the British arrangement around this. They already had a security formula for for the gulf. And the main problem for them in the Gulf was actually Iran and Iraq and and and the in the case of the Gulf state... The smaller Gulf states, Saudi Arabia.
So these these security discussions you know, are not based or rooted in in reality. What we do find however, is that is that as israeli presence goes the stabilization for the gulf states. So it was seen as as a liability from from their perspective, not not as an asset. And those that promote however, this this line, including by the way people in the air well. Think that, this was a question of dividing
the region. So by transplant this, this entity in the region a colony, you're gonna, you know, divert energies from liberation and and cause division. I think that's that's not a good way of understanding how imperial works or makes decisions. You know, that I I find no evidence, whatsoever, that the initial deliberations around the setting up of the Central Colonial state or it's later support, were based on this logic specifically,
of we need to divide this region. And that's for a very simple reason, which is that they already had dominated the region. They didn't need, you know, when they were setting up this project. The British had control over this suez canal. You know, sometimes people tell you he needed to protect sewers. Like, they they had control over Suez was and they had control over Palestine military. It was... They could it could they could
have find... They you could have functioned as a as a turned it into a colony basically or something along these lines. We talked about decimal times before. Now when it comes to the, my own under understanding, and I think where the left needs to upgrade this discussion. Because also on the other side, you have this lobby argument. Which I... Which is equally problematic because that just views politics as detached from capital detached from empire detached from you know, and and assumes a
certain... In some cases, it assumes even good intent on the part of imperial, America was is a well intention. They that got dragged into this by But, you know who? Yeah. And and and worst in the worst versions of this lobby argument there are serious anti semitic elements to. You know, not all of it by the way. So it's, you know, there's there's very serious arguments made by people who promote the lobby line or that they're not anti semitic, but There are also...
There's a right wing version that is anti semitic. Now, the the actual alternative and I think is is a serious alternative and it's the it's the genuinely it's alternative that that would apply genuine Marxist analysis is to treat zion. And and I've said this before, and... I'm pretty much I've been trying to promote this widely as much as I can. It's to secreted as a genuine political and social movement because it is.
It it is it has been operating in the Us usc in in a very serious ways and it has a very effective lobbying arm, but it also has deep social roots. There are mothers that work to, create grassroots support for Israel. Today, even, during ring this genocide. You know, you have these other groups on Facebook, for example, There are harassing school administrators. They're that are promoting Genes genocide denial, unfortunately. There are
student movements. Now less so in our day and age, but in the old days, used to be an active zion student movement. There is work in political parties. There is... So all of this indicates the existence. Of not only an ideology, of course, zion is which, of course, does exist, but also, a social base for that ideology. And yes, that ideology is developed in relation to a faraway place Palestine, but it's treated as a domestic concern by these people. And and by by it's promoter,
of by the borders of this ideology. And by the... Those that belong to the social and political movement are wounded. There is an element of capital. There is a capitalist story in this, which is, of course, that without, the inequities. In in in the global order. Like serious economic inequities equities would not have been possible to 4, European states and later on North American States to impose as a colonial project on on on a region mike out of the of the of the Middle East.
There is an imperialist that I dimension, of course. But that form of imperial is very much. Connected to a domestic movement as well. And we see this in other cyclical colonial cases, especially with settle colonial cases, there is a domestic dimension to the imperial question. Now, I I would suggest that this is actually more intense intense domestic dimension. Because in in this case, there's a stronger or religious ideology around it.
You know, 1 section of this political social movement is rooted it in Christian zion. Another section is rooted in reform reformation of jewish theology. There other sections that are rooted in the development of Jewish nationalism after the the... Especially after the second world war, but even before that. So all of this has to be taken into account when we want to seriously analyze Zion. And and the way it works.
And it seems like there's beyond these specific bases for zion as an American social movement. There's this more general ideological American commitment to zion. That's obviously in a bit of crisis right now, but that comes to see Israel as so much like the Us. That it's essentially an extension of the Us. They are us, the October seventh attack is an attack almost on American soil. Yes. And and and this, Daniel, is there's a huge and massive literature, of course, on this.
And and, you know, we've we've had many studies discussing the cultural dimension. Because, of course, there are similarities, but but there are also different. The similarities lie in this in the fact that this is a such a colonial state. The the fact that there was a religious imagery used in this conquest including specifically relating to Palestine, like on, the
you can add, all of this. And there's so many elements that you could draw on to create a culture of support for the israeli state in this. But the point is that this offers the cultural register. But there's somebody... There's... There has to be immediate force that that brings that register to the 4 and acts on it. These are speech acts at the end of the day, Daniel, and they have to be made by someone. And the space where that gets made is the political space. And we have to treat
it as such. This is a political battle, and and it has to be dealt with us such. This is why I emphasize this. And now, a serious class analysis also has to now be applied to the the cons elements which you know, the original Zion alliance was made, and which is now changing because what we're seeing now, and I think it's very clear to people. Is if you apply serious class analysis now to, for example, American Jewish populations.
You'll see that it's much more likely for middle class Jews to be losing support for this project now. And and we see this across the board. It's it's much more likely and also if we apply a cultural analysis lens. It's much more likely for intellectual just to be losing support for this for this now. Amongst Christian circles, there were churches that also reform their ideology. But what we're seeing though is the big capital.
Okay, of of Christian domination or within within Jewish communities or elsewhere are hardening their support. Because the this question has been rep packaged now as a question of left and right. Increasingly, Palestine is seen as a commitment for the left. Whereas supporting Israel is a commitment for the right.
And then to follow up, are are there changes that we should be noting here in the Us approach to Israel, both in terms of concrete, Us policy, but also in terms of the more general American ideological commitment Israel and how Americans relate to the Palestinian question, how all this changes over time between, say, 19 48 and where we are now in this story, the 19 seventies. Yes. So, of course, in 19 48, the Us plays a big role in setting up the Israeli
central colonial state. And that was primarily through diplomatic pressure. Diplomatic pressure both on the states that were members of the Un. And later on, various forms of diplomatic pressure to ensure that that state continues to, be able to sustain itself. Globally after the the war. On the military front, much of the, armament we're flowing from Europe and Western Europe in particular, in the in the early stages of the
formation of Israeli state. And, of course, as we've discussed earlier, even the first major weapons shipment then, was was from the Eastern block. During the 19 48 war. Zion militias are able to achieve victory in that war through, a check arms deal.
But, I know we have a transformation happening where there is this primarily the diplomatic and and economic assistance given, it gets more and more intense, as we enter the sixties, that said, we should not fall into the trap that is is is suggested by some scholars saying, the relationship becomes only significant after 6 7 war. Because in the fifties, for example, the Us designs entire regional policies around the Israeli question. Its
relationships with Egypt. Its relationships with other states in the region are shaped by that. And they're trying to pressure these states to accept the settle colonial presence in their midst and to normalize. And to reset processing refugees. So That is a major major commitment on the part of the United States Israeli state. Now, the sixties, we have we have major transformations taken place, of course.
You know, throughout the forties and fifties, yes, you have supporters of Israel winning within the internal deliberations of Us Empire, but there are also the dissent. There were strong voices that did not see, an Israel first policy as beneficial for imperial interest, and and they were saying that within this statement. Department, and elsewhere within the Us elite, you know, you had all sorts of figures that that that were deeply involved in designing the lease policy.
Were identified by this zion lobby as the Arab within the State department. For example. Know those tended to be regional experts. Who wanted to pursue an imperial policy based on, their realities prevailing in their in their regional sphere. They get sidelined increasingly. So the new innovation in the 19 sixties, and and that starts really with the kennedy years, but it it gets much more intense under Johnson.
Is that, in the domestic arena, the domestic foreign policy arena, the Israel lobby achieves major victories. And and and and that's a significant dynamic that takes place, including, most importantly the humiliation of Senator Fu. And the failure of the senate investigation committee that he had set up to look into the influence of, Israeli Lob in in in Washington. So so that's an important turning point. For those who are interested in in these
kind of dynamics. There's a new book by Il Pap, lobbying on both sides of the atlantic client, of course, Elon always is a fantastic historian and and and a great and zion towering figure within, the, Israeli seen Is is is the is the best Israeli historian alive. And and a true visionary. In any case, the changes that happened after 67. Are are huge though. Because the the the Us to begin with, it authorizes 67, of course, you know, Johnson does
that. It gives the green light. It creates the conditions where such a thing is possible. And and, you know, a war like this could not be conducted without the approval and support of, 1 of the major superpower. But then, we end up with the victory in that war being used within Washington. On the part of the, political and social movement, we referred to that design and its lobbying arms. To make an argument within national security, the national security establishment, saying
Israel is the main Us asset here. It's it's it's... It becomes like almost like a self fulfilling prophecy. They they they become, the main our arm of of Us military power in in in the region. Even though they fought that war with primarily french supplied Air force, etcetera. But now they get, like, a more serious military commitment. On the part of the Us, you
know, in those in those years. And this, military commitment is is more than just turning a blind eye to them getting nuclear weapons, which, of course, was happening with with French and British and and into some next Us support in those years in South African, of course, support. It goes beyond that, you know, by the by the post 67 period, we enter into a new terrain where they're just arming them to the teeth. And they're providing much bigger aid. That increases after 73 even more.
And and and Kissing plays a big role on this. You know, He strides this idea that that Israel always has to be better armed at the entire region combined. Swine this idea that that Israel is the core of the cold war policy in in in this part of the world. But at the same time, it's careful to present it in in in very short terms. This is this is not a somebody will come out and tell you... Well, I'm Ardent and Zion is, therefore, this has to happen.
And, of course, you use the author of of several books. You will not find a race of an of, the declaration of his ideological commitment. What you will find is carefully crafted arguments. That suggests that, for example, this is a a conflict from time in Memorial. Here's the Arab case here it's really case the Us interest, but always Us interest and up somehow being prop up the Israelis marginal the Palestinians.
And essentially, creating conditions where the, arab states exit, any form of an orbit that is designed to support the palestinian in cause. That was the fifteenth episode of Fa, the Dig series on twentieth century Arab politics with Abdul Ras. Who teaches history at Rice University. A scholar of Era in Palestinian
revolutionary movements. He's the author of Monsoon revolution, Republicans, Sultan and empires in Oman, and the coa of, the Palestinian Revolution Digital Humanity's website, an incredible resource that is now back online. Check it out. There's a link in the show notes. It's really, really something. Thank you for listening to the dig. From Jacob Magazine. As Marx once said, after noting that, revolutions are the locomotives of history. While other podcasts have only interpreted the world
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