This is an AI Transcription. It’s pretty good, but please forgive any errors.
[00:00:00] Jonathan: Welcome to the Difference Engine, the show for tech founders, investors and innovators.
[00:00:14] Paul: Welcome to The Difference Engine and a series of interviews of European technology leaders brought to you in association with Board Wave. The Board Wave Network is a powerful community of founders, CEOs, chairs, independent non-execs, and their investors from across Europe, representing companies at every stage of development.
[00:00:32] Jonathan: ALWA provides easy access to relevant skills, knowledge, experience, mentorship. Guidance and advice, and the belief that together, this powerful group can help each other build stronger businesses and shape the long-term future of the sector.
[00:00:46] Paul: This week we're joined by Broadway Patron and Mentor Rich Waterworth
[00:00:50] Jonathan: from 2019 to 2024.
He was general manager for TikTok in Europe and emea. Responsible for growth and management of the business in the region. Prior to TikTok, rich led marketing for YouTube and EMEA for nearly a decade, helping to establish the concept of creators during a period of hypergrowth
[00:01:09] Paul: before Google Rich launched on-demand service ITV, player and Connected TV platform, uvu.
He is currently enrolled at his alma mater, Oxford University. Researching the use of AI in the creative industries, and he serves as a trustee of the Teenage Cancer Trust. Rich Waterworth. Welcome to The Difference Engine.
[00:01:34] Jonathan: Can you talk us through your early years at Branded and IPC Media and how you moved into the world of electronic media, um, as you went to cello Media?
[00:01:44] Rich: Yeah, sure. Yeah. Well, as you say, came, came outta uni just as the dotcom boom was, was getting going. And I, I was very lucky to, to work in a, uh, this company you mentioned called Branded.
It was a marketing branding consultancy. Uh, and the reason I, I thought I was really lucky is because I saw, you know, tons of different businesses over, you know, the four.
With
search engine who.
They would call it a business plan, but it's basically just an idea, like zero product, zero testing, zero kind of proof of concept. Um, so it was, it was a strange time, but it was a really, really great time to learn, um, about these different kinds of businesses. As I say, some of them very dotcom oriented.
We also worked with.
Consultant.
Have an opportunity to be responsible for, uh, a business or parts of a business and, uh, and see how that was run and how to grow it. And so I went to IPC Media, which, uh, uh, a magazine business now time. Um, and, uh, that, that was, that was an amazing experience because that, you know, that was an incredibly well.
Odd years. Um, it was pre the sort of massive disruption to that business. Um, so I had an opportunity to get in and see how, you know, just a well oiled machine worked, uh, that was, that was a very well run machine. They knew exactly, uh, what they were doing, uh, and, and, you know, successful, uh, financially at.
That was, that was, you know, the kind of early, early years. And as you said, after that, I, I went into, well, television really, so, so, uh, um, you know, digital multi-channel tv, but essentially it was in tv, Telemedia, and then ITV as the next stage.
[00:04:13] Jonathan: You went to Telemedia. But by 2007 you'd moved to a big brand.
People would recognize ITV, where you were director of platform marketing, which I presume was quite a revolutionary to in those days. Um. What did that tell you about the way broadcasters were having to adapt to the online world?
[00:04:32] Rich: Yeah, it, it was, it was kind of a revolutionary, uh, title. I was, I was the first person, I was in the marketing department.
I was the first person in the marketing department, was hired with a kind of, you know, interactive, multi-platform, uh, remit and job title. Um, and you. Really invest in interactive online services. But it was from a very, you know, it was, you know, from a very sort of basic level, I guess, you know, the, the itv com website where I got there was text and pictures, and so I think everybody recognized that for a broadcaster, this probably wasn't really quite right.
So. Uh, it was, it was a really a brilliant time of saying, okay, well, if that's not right, what do we, what do we need to build online? What do we need to build on mobile? How do we, uh, start to create digital experiences around the incredible content franchises that ITV has, uh, and think you.
The, the direction we should go in was really clear. It was really clear that we had these huge brands, massive audience, uh, on linear tv, which could be, you know, cross promoted to digital experiences. Um, incredible. Uh, and, and so it was very clear what we wanted to do and create in terms of creating, you know, two screen experiences and, and moving these audiences around.
The actual execution of that is not easy. Because you know, the culture and capabilities of product development in terms of digital experiences is very different to the culture and capabilities of program making. And so you had two cultures, uh, that, that, that are quite distinct, uh, didn't necessarily understand each other that well, trying to work together.
Uh, and in some cases there were successes, but it showed that the actual execution was, was pretty hard.
[00:06:28] Paul: So do you think the, um, cataclysmic category changes going on were fully appreciated by both sides? Only one, or were they both slightly wrong? Because where we get to with you down the line with where you end up is, is in the new category that that was forming at this time.
[00:06:41] Rich: It's the classic case. So I think there were some people who sort of understood, um, how, how the new category was emerging and evolving. Uh, and there were some people who didn't really understand it or didn't, weren't really particularly interested in, in understanding.
Uh, massively viral after her appearance on Britain's Got Talent. It was a genuinely incredible moment. Uh, she was, you know, all over the world, mainly on YouTube. Um, and it was, it was so stark in the days after that. There were there, there was a group of people. Including myself within ITV who, who just thought were like, this is amazing.
This is, you know, this is fantastic. You know, this, this property, Britain's got talent, uh, that we'd like to sell around the world is, is having this incredible, you know, moment of promotion and digital engagement around the world.
[00:07:37] Paul: Breakthrough, yeah,
[00:07:37] Rich: breakthrough. But there was also a significant cohort, people who were like, this is an absolute disaster.
This, we need to get this taken down immediately. This, this is, yeah, this, you know, and so you, you could just see that that, and, you know, there were sort of reasonable positions on both sides, but just very different outlooks as to like, okay, where are things going and what do we need to try and optimize for?
So I think you could, you could see in that just the different cultures and the different outlooks. It's pretty stuck.
[00:08:05] Jonathan: Well, really at that point. YouTube had started to loom really large in your life. Um, and in 2010 you actually made the decision to move there and you spent nine years there, right? Until 2019.
Uh, those must have been the golden years at YouTube. Um, because. YouTube was establishing undoubted category leadership in online video. What was it that YouTube did Right to, to get into that position whi, which it still enjoys to this day.
[00:08:38] Rich: Yeah, I mean there were amazing times. I mean, I think it's, it's easy to post rationalize, isn't it?
And sort of think that, that the got sort inevitable. But you know, when I.
Was taken seriously by large parts of the industry, the content industry, the ad industry, the agencies, the brands. Um, it was, you know, viewed as something that was basically watched by teenagers, uh, with lots of, you know, fails and, uh, you know, basically not serious content. So, um. A c.
It, it had, you know, as part of Google, and the reason Google bought it is it had that kind of tech company, uh, or at least tech, uh, outlook of actually what we're building here is a platform. What we're building is a platform, and that platform needs to encompass a series of technical features. You know, that will be useful, uh, and enjoyable to users.
A series of features that are beneficial to creators and, and, and people uploading content. Um, and, and so things like thinking about how YouTube is gonna be embedded in other websites around, around the internet is a classic sort of tech company play that distribution and. And then beyond that, you know, uh, uh, uh, YouTube was, you know, was thinking very long term about what kind of ecosystem and infrastructure it's trying to build around the creators.
So thinking from an early stage about the partner program and revenue sharing, uh, and the, you know, how do you build a sustainable economy around this, around this platform? Which again, you know, in those early.
People didn't understand that. And so it really did, it really was quite a visionary, uh, thing to say, we are gonna build this, this sustainable platform where, you know, where there's gonna be monetization, there's gonna be, you know, um, uh, you know, a way for creators and content owners to, you know, post get, get massive distribution.
So I think just having that vision.
I guess having the benefit of, of, you know, Google with, with all the engineering and other assets that that brings, you know, uh, you know, helping you along on that vision is obviously a massive advantage because it just gives you the ability to scale, uh, technically to run a service, uh, you know, globally that actually pretty hard technically.
Is underestimated.
[00:11:33] Jonathan: One of the things too, I, I guess if you think about the history of, of YouTube and certainly your involvement in it, and you just drop that word in twice in the, in the last five minutes, and that's the word creators, and it strikes us that. We know that language is really, really important in category creation and the idea of raters, uh, we think was really, really important to development of YouTube.
Can you, you talk us through that because a lot of your work when you joined YouTube must have been about convincing the agencies in particular to start with, that they should take these. People really, seriously.
[00:12:10] Rich: You are absolutely right. And, and what's interesting about that word, creators and, and the concept and the category, but specifically the word, the word was not really used.
In fact, it was not used in the early days. They were, you know, they were, they were kind of kids who were uploading. It was UGC. So we, we, we made a conscious decision across.
Building the, I guess you'd call it the equity around that word, uh, building, um, uh, you know, a sense amongst that community of people uploading that they were creators and we were gonna help them grow and build a kind of business as creators. Um, and then you referred to the kind of agencies.
The under understanding and the, the credibility really of creators with, with, you know, with that world in the early days, because of course that was key to, to advertising on YouTube. Um, we needed them to understand who creators were, why they were so significant. And so, you know, we, we did various things, uh, across.
We applied the sort of TV marketing playbook, if you like, and we put creators, uh, on billboards, on buses. We put them on stage at big, uh, events we were holding. We really sort of treated them in a similar way that you would treat T TV talents. And it was, it was fascinating because the first, you know, the first time we did that.
People, they're like, well, you know, who are these people? You know, who is that person on the billboard? You know? But actually what we, what we were doing is saying, what you don't understand is that these creators have huge followings and communities on YouTube. And, um, they are, you know, to their, to their audiences, to their, to their fans.
And talent. And so you should see them in a similar way. Um, and, and I think gradually as the category continued to grow and we continued to elevate YouTube creators in that way, we, you know, we did just start to build that understanding. Okay, this is a new, a new wave of, of media. Uh, you know, creators are like mini, you know, mini content companies, media companies in their own rights.
Uh, and obviously we've sort of seen that continue to evolve over the last, you know, 10, 15 years.
[00:14:40] Paul: Right? So the Side Men documentary that we, that's just come out where they talk about their blowing up on, on YouTube, uh, you know what people forget is, as you say.
What's interesting is the backstory. They're real people doing real stuff. The behind the scenes piece at which you encourage, right? Yeah, absolutely.
[00:15:05] Rich: They're, they're, they're real people. They're independent, uh, creators. They want to be independent creators, and they want, you know, they wanted to be independent so that they could do their own thing.
They could serve an audience, you know, often a very specific audience and just.
There have been various sort of attempts, um, to bring creators into, into television in different forms. Generally hasn't worked that well with some exceptions, but now you're seeing, um, you know, with the side man, with Mr. Beast on, on Prime, you're seeing kind of creators bringing what they do to.
You know, and they really are bringing it as independent, you know, creators, they're their own, you know, production companies in, in doing those kinds of things. And so essentially, you know, you're seeing the, I think the development and, and maturation of that content onto, onto a different platform, but it's taken quite long time.
[00:16:06] Jonathan: And from the other end of things, the roles of PLA are really important. But didn't YouTube also, uh, get a little bit of an advantage in sort of 20 15, 20 16 when the big. Suffered what I think people call the safety crisis. And that resulted in a real opportunity for YouTube.
[00:16:24] Rich: Yeah. I mean, it was a, it was a challenge, you know, at the same time.
But, but you know, one of the, one of the kind of consequences of, uh, of that period was that. Uh, YouTube continued to evolve, um, the way the partner program worked. And so, um, more mainstream, more brand safe creators, um, were, uh, basically, you know, able to monetize even more effectively within, within YouTube.
And so. For a certain, um, kind of group or cohort of, of, uh, mainstream brand safe creators, you know, science and education content, these kind of things that was a massive, uh, kind of boon and gave them, and, you know, you know, did in, in a lot of cases, enable them to move to a different level in terms of their kind of monetization potential.
So, um, yeah, one of, you know, one.
You know, there've been interesting moments when, when YouTube launched the, the subscriptions products as well, around that time, uh, thousand 16, I think it was. Um, which again, just, just created another revenue stream, um, for, uh, for creators and content companies on, on YouTube. So it's been a, it's been a sort of series of, of step changes over time.
[00:17:42] Jonathan: So I suppose we, we have to think that by the end of, of that decade, um, Google and Facebook. Google being YouTube's parents had collectively won the conventional. Video market and we're starting to expand into this new form of presenting content, which we think of as short form video, um, with things like YouTube stories, but also Facebook reels, uh, and of course Instagram that Facebook had, um, acquired.
So talk us through how, how the idea of doing stuff in short form started to develop and become a thing.
[00:18:18] Rich: Yeah, I mean, it, it was actually, it was actually the new entrance into the market, you know, so, uh, that I think really stimulated the short form view. So, so, so probably, you know, one of the earliest sort of mainstream or bigger platforms to do it was Snapchat.
You know, they, they started doing shorter form vertical video. Um. Ironic YouTube's history, you know, or legacy, you know, the origin of YouTube. Pretty short form video gradually sort of got longer over time, so short form, you know, was definitely part of the D and history of YouTube as well. But I think moving to vertical video.
Short and, and scrolling feeds. That was, that was the combination of those things. That was a new, a new form factor, a new experience. And I say I think Snapchat did some of that early on, but then it was really some of the new players, including, you know, TikTok obviously was the one that really, really, um, broke through.
Uh.
Consumption experience, uh, and a different, um, actually something that required a different way of creating as well.
[00:19:29] Jonathan: You were clearly paying attention at that point because in 2019 you made the decision to join what was then still a very embryonic TikTok, quite a big decision to, to leave the still evolving category leader YouTube with the might of Google right behind it.
So what was, was it that you had noticed in terms of. The potential opportunity developing, you know, while you were at YouTube that, that convinced you to make that leap. Uh, and were there other factors, you know, for instance, something about the company itself that made you believe it was the right decision?
[00:20:03] Rich: I mean, you, you used the phrase, you know, paying attention and I think that it, it did get my attention in, in, uh, autumn.
The biggest YouTube creator in the world at that point was a guy called, who I'm sure people remember. Um, he spent about, uh, two weeks in Autumn, 2018, posting every day on his YouTube channel, compilations of TikTok, uh, content. He just became obsessed with it and big deal. So.
Uh, it was, you know, the thing that that got me really interested wa was a few different factors. One, just seeing this new form factor, this new combination of, of UI and ux, the full screen audio on, uh, uh, vertical video scrolling feed. Um, it just.
By extension of different creation experience, that that was different to what, to what we've seen. So I was kind of really interested in that. Um, the other thing that really, um, got me interested is from a very early stage, the users and creators that were succeeding on TikTok, that were starting to get, you know, lots of views, very clearly identified as.
This was not re, this was not really YouTubers who were like, oh, this is a new platform, let's go. And this was a different cohort of creators and users. They identified, you know, with TikTok as they liked it, the community. And I knew from YouTube that if you have that kind of community loyalty and energy and a group of creators, that's an credibly powerful, um, source.
About bike as a company and, and a company and, and how successful, uh, bike has been and, and, and how they, how they thought about, um, you know, growing and launching products and businesses. And, and so I, you know, I just put those things together and thought, okay, I really, I really feel, uh. Strongly that this is, this is something that has an opportunity to break through.
But again, don't forget at that point, you know, all the conversation was the duopoly. This is like, it's kind of done, you know, it's Google, it's Facebook. No one's really gonna be able to break through. They've cornered, you know, the market. Um, and so it was, um, I mean, I quite liked the idea of that challenge of doing that, like this challenge
[00:22:56] Jonathan: seems.
If you look back at the history to distinguish YouTube and TikTok was, was that TikTok had this massive belief that local originators were the key to growth and that they were gonna grow very, very quickly.
[00:23:10] Rich: Absolutely. You know, the, the, it was, it was really, really focused on. As you say, getting into, you know, specific countries around the world, understanding the culture and the communities and the sub-communities of creators and users where TikTok could be, could be beneficial, could be a good experience, and really, you know, going in and stimulating and supporting those communities from amazing.
How do you from the up just stimulate and support those communities and create a series of communities within one, so people think of.
Probably anything had come before was enable lots and lots did on support those communities, support them, bring them together. Um, but, but itself. The power of, of the algorithm is that, you know, you know, all of us can have different experiences on TikTok. We can, we can engage in communities and sub communities that are completely different.
One from the other. You know, there's this, people talk about being on different sides of TikTok. That's what that's about. We can, we can just get into the, the niches and communities and uh, you know, it could be a TV show I'm watching right now.
Around those creators and, and those types of content. And, and doing that at massive scale around the world in different languages and different cultures is obviously an incredible, uh, incredibly complex feat.
[00:24:54] Jonathan: You see in that too, the classic features of, of great category creation is, is that something which is genuinely different from that which people already know and the building up ave very quickly are very powerful ecosystems.
But you know, that must have been a hell of a ride for, for five years. And, and last year you, you made the decision to move on. What, what was it that prompted you? Pardon me? Being of a ride.
[00:25:19] Rich: Yeah. It was, it was, it was an incredible ride. Absolutely Amazing. Should we
[00:25:23] Paul: go with
[00:25:26] Rich: Yeah. Of. It was incredible. I mean, I loved it and you know, in a lot of ways I, I, I would've loved to carry on.
But, uh, a combination of, of sort of personal, you know, professional reasons probably as, as much personal as anything else. Yeah, I've been, I've been across YouTube and TikTok, you know, nearly 15 years. There's a great, uh, span of time, but uh, it took up, you know, it takes up a lot of time and energy. Um, I'd, I'd, at that point I'd started, um, uh, doing a master's.
Um, and I was really interested in just sort of giving myself a bit of time to explore some, some of my own personal interests have a bit more time in my life. And, and so, um, uh, I decided to give myself that time. Um, also. And, you know, honestly, I'm just quite a kind of curious, restless person. So I always think there's, there's other interesting things out there that I, I would like to, uh, experience or be part of.
So it was a, it was a combination of those reasons, but, um, but doing the masters I think was, was, or at least starting to do that was the thing that really like. Okay. There's, there's a whole kind of category of, uh, research and knowledge and interest that I really do wanna spend some sort of significant time with.
So that was, you know, that was something that made me think, okay, right, this, this is gonna be a great project, uh, you know, when I do come out.
[00:26:53] Jonathan: Yeah. So you're doing that well, a couple of days a week. Um, what else are you doing with your time at the moment?
[00:26:57] Rich: I'm doing, uh.
Uh, a little bit of, uh, angel investing. So, uh, in and around the, the tech, uh, media industries, uh, mostly. Um, so I, I actually really, really enjoying that and, um, finding that very fulfilling working with companies at different stages from, uh, really early stage startups to, you know, establish scale.
I.
Uh, parts of, uh, of, of the industry is really, it's really good and interesting for me, but I find there's a lot of benefit and kind of learnings. You can draw one from the other. Um, uh, that I think, you know, can add, add quite a lot of value. Yeah.
[00:27:54] Paul: Your track record would say, you know, you know about, uh, picking winners, right?
[00:27:57] Rich: I think you've gotta be very, you've gotta be very humble about that. Um.
I think if you, I think if you are really careful and thoughtful about some of the sort of structural factors in an industry, um, or in a category and you have a strong point of view, a sort of well-informed point of view on like, okay, where is that category or industry going? What are some of those trends?
And if those, and if I'm.
What, what, you know, where will that take you? What, what will that, you know, what will that, what opportunities will that present? What kind of, and so I think that's the way I like to think about these things is, okay, can I identify patterns? And if, if those patterns are right and they do continue, what kinds of things are gonna change?
Uh, and what kinds of things?
A way of trying to, uh, you know, just put a bit of a framework around, you know, what are obviously often very fast moving. Uh, and, and the only thing I'd add to that is you, as I say, you've gotta be humble and you've gotta be very ready to realize, okay, if I thought this was gonna happen, it turns out it's not.
You just have to. You just have to acknowledge, I guess, not panning out and just, and reset and reframe your kind of mental model of, of, of, of the category or how things are happening.
[00:29:29] Jonathan: So what advice have we got there for the, for the listen as well? Uh, clearly it's, uh, it's stay humble, stay curious, but look for companies, whether it's genuine difference and the ability to build out and sustain a large ecosystem.
So while we're talking about, um, the idea of if you want to dominate a category, you have to find something genuinely different and build a great ecosystem. Um, there could actually be a cautionary tale that is, uh, has actually occurred, um, in the last few years and certainly, uh, during the time that Rich has been developing his career.
So just after Rich joined TikTok, quibi, I was I home? A video streaming service designed for people to enjoy video content on their phones. And this launched, um, in about 2020. It was led by a former Disney exec and veteran Hollywood executive Jeffrey Katzenberg, and a former CEO of HP Meg Whitman. Um, the streaming service was at the time, designed to be a revolutionary in quotes, a way to watch videos in quotes on the go, which shows in films specifically formatted to work on both landscape and portrait modes on your phone.
Now, because of these big names, we think they. Managed to raise $2 billion, uh, from big investors like Alibaba. Walt Disney warn the media before it launched in April of 2020. Um, there's also a long line of Hollywood talent was on board to provide the movies and the shows. And now Katzenberg and Whitman must have felt pretty good about their prospects, yet despite two.
Billion dollars in investment. Kibby was shut down after just seven months. So this was at a time, rich, just after you joined TikTok. So you were in a, a good place to observe all this happening. So looking back, when would you think Kibby failed?
[00:31:36] Rich: It is a really interesting, a really interesting case to.
Again, you have to sort of think back to 2020 as it was. Did they launch 2019 or 2020? I can't remember. 20. 20 April. 2020. 2020. Right, exactly. So I think that speaks to one of the big reasons, right? That was covid timing, time and time. I mean, they were launching as a, as a mobile first, um, consumption and. So for PE it was, it was, it was, you know, content in your mobiles when you didn't have your kind of TV to watch your streaming service and suddenly everybody was at home and had, you know, could watch Netflix all day.
So, I mean, that, that was, you just, you couldn't have been worse. And I think in one way it's sort of, you.
And I, and I think it was, you know, almost impossible for them to overcome that. But it's probably also, it's probably interesting to consider whether they could have, you know, what would've happened if, if Covid hadn't happened? And then I think you get into, you know, you've got things like the er, the emergence of TikTok and other kind of mobile first media, which was, you know, and, and YouTube was growing incredibly fast.
Is, you know, is there a mismatch between that kind of qui, lean back, serialized content approach and what people actually wanted or, or still want on a. Feels to me like there, there is a mismatch, you know, there's an element of interactivity, you know, so, you know, social, you know, connections with other people.
Um, those are all really, really important to the platforms that, that succeed on mobile.
[00:33:28] Jonathan: Yeah, they were, they were also, um, they're doing the subscription model. At the time, the commerce competitors were just giving it away for free. Perhaps that wasn't, um, too attractive to people who were worried about whe when the, where the next dollar was coming from during Covid.
[00:33:43] Rich: Yeah, I think that's a factor. Although, you know, YouTube was, was growing YouTube premium at that point, and one of the selling points for YouTube was you can take videos offline.
I can work and you know, we're obviously seeing now increasingly, you know, it's kind of working across more and more of the media landscape. So I don't think that in itself is, is a reason why it couldn't work.
[00:34:20] Paul: Do you think there's an element of, because I subscribe to YouTube Premium, it's amazing. That's how you just get the most value out of the, of the channel in my view, or the, the, uh, platform.
But do you think there's an element now that we've got so much. Via, which of course everywhere
do, there's an where there's amount of hours in. And the attention economies got us. Do you think they, they timed it possibly wrong because you guys were flying at that point? Both and, and it sort of filled up the hours that people, even though, you know, there's 24 hours and people devote a done with much time left.
[00:35:01] Rich: Yeah, I mean, you know, the time people have spent on mobile and consuming video has continued to grow since 2020. So, you know, theoretically Quibi could have been part of that growth. So again, I, I don't think, I don't think that that consumption time on mobile was saturated at that point. Um, so I think it.
Connecting the content experience to the form factor of a mobile and, and, and the, the sort of features that a mobile can enable in interactivity and connection. Um, uh, it, it, for me would be more of a factor.
[00:35:36] Jonathan: They saw YouTube as their competition when they should have actually seen TikTok as their competition, and they, they got, got caught between two categories.
And two, two really strong paradigmatic shifts.
[00:35:47] Rich: I think that's, I think that's right because, you know, TikTok was, was very disruptive to, to YouTube and to, you know, other established players. So sort of everybody was caught slightly, you know, unawares or, or at least, you know, surprised by, by the growth of TikTok, which, which was just phenomenal in, and
[00:36:06] Jonathan: in my view, I guess and summary on all this is, is, is that had already changed game.
With short form video and, uh, the sort of content that would actually be consumed. Um, and, you know, for us that is the difference which defines a, a new, a new category. And I think in contrast can be simply didn't get it. Appeared to be launching what they thought was a better because the absolute enemy of of, of category, uh, version of Netflix and, uh, and on YouTube and, uh, yeah, just too, it's a
[00:36:40] Rich: little too late to the category definition, but I think it speaks to this point where.
You do, you need to combine, in my view, you need to combine two things. You need to combine a really clear and strong view about macro long-term trends and, and they had a view about mobile consumption, which was basically right. But you, you need to combine that macro long-term view with an incredible agility in the very short term to either see what's happening in the.
You've
have.
[00:37:30] Jonathan: The next section we, we call a five minute mentor. And, and this is really, uh, Rich's advice for, uh, founders and scalers of tech businesses so we know in an ever faster changing environment, um, it is a major challenge for anybody starting, scaling, or even leading an established business. To figure out what's really going on and where to place the business bets.
You know, rich, given you've spent your career so far working in a rapidly shifting environment, that's redefined what we think of of media, what advice would you give to anybody trying to navigate a path through and crucially take advantage of the rapidly shifting sand of tech?
[00:38:12] Rich: Well, I think you've used that word rapidly shifting or phrase times.
And the first thing for me is, you know when these things are shifting so rapidly, content platforms, emerging new behaviors, emerging new technical. Nobody, you know, there is a, there is a period where really nobody really, uh, knows, you know, what's possible, what's happening, and we're in a, we're in a period like that right now as well.
And so the first thing I would say, and I've always thought about is you have to learn by doing yourself. You have to give yourself direct exposure to whatever, it's the new content platform, the new kind of tools.
But just as importantly, I think that gives you an ability to sort of, as long, if you keep doing that over time, could be a period of weeks or, or, or longer months. It gives you an ability to see how the tools are starting to change or how the platform and, and, uh, so when you've got that first time experience, I think you really then need to sort of step back and think to yourself, okay, what, what is happening here?
What kind of changes am I observing? And what happens if these changes keep happening? What if. And, and the kind of changes that I'm seeing. So emergence of creators, new media companies,
be true in a.
And I think if you could do those two things, give yourself that sort of direct experience, but then step back and, and just have, have a, a, a few theories about, you know, what it might look like. Um, I think that that gives you an ability to sort of see, okay, well there, if, if that's right, that these kinds of opportunities might exist in a few years or on a personal level, if that's right.
And.
Uh, for personal development, but also for, you know, thinking about business and category evolution and opportunity.
[00:40:21] Jonathan: That strikes me as a, as a personal characteristic, which whether might teach you in any MBA and that, that's curiosity. You need to be curious. And so how is it that you fuel your curiosity to, to get to those decisions?
And having, having had a look at what might be happening, how is it you start to think, okay, this is what we need to do.
[00:40:41] Rich: Yeah, I mean, I guess, you know, curiosity is probably to certain extent a natural, you know, characteristic, isn't it? So I'm definitely just a very curious person, interested, uh, particularly in new things that haven't been seen before.
Um, and, and I'm interested in them because for me, that is, they're, they're the bridge to what's gonna be happening in the, so.
I.
Semi obsessive about reading and, you know, keeping up with, you know, what is happening in different, you know, areas of technology, what's happening in different areas of media or commerce or whatever areas I'm interested in. You know, and I, I, you know, I'm like probably many people I'm, I'm absolutely stacked with.
Uh, you know, uh, refining and filtering the kind of things I'm reading to try and make sure I'm, I'm getting the best quality information on a regular basis, which is a sort of ongoing task,
[00:41:49] Jonathan: presuming that allows you to create a pretty strong point of view about things. And, and I guess once you've got that.
Um, did, did any of the experience you had at YouTube and Google make you think about when you've decided how things are likely to change? What are the horizons you should be, should be looking at in terms to, to, to have any form of planning around this shifting sense?
[00:42:11] Rich: Definitely. I mean, uh, I remember when I was at YouTube, uh, you know, one of the, one of the founders of, of Google used to talk about, uh.
You should have a sort of three to five year plan. Uh, and those should be the two things that you should really, really focus on. And obviously you're updating your quarterly plan every quarter, and you might update your three to five year plan, you know, uh, every year or maybe, or maybe more frequently if, if things.
But, but the point is, I think.
What am I actually gonna do, like in the very short term? Um, and then what's the sort of broad direction that that's heading in? But if you anchor too much on the medium term, I think that's where you can get into trouble and sort of go towards a destination. Actually, you know, in the space of a year that you're aiming towards it, it might change quite significantly.
Uh, but if you get the right longer term. Trends and directions, they're not gonna change. And, and you're broad enough with them, they're not gonna change that much. And you can keep course correcting over those quarterly cycles. So, you know, I think it's now a pretty well established, um, cadence of combining those two things in tech.
And it obviously aligns to the, um. The development cycles of, of software engineering and shipping products and this kind of thing. So I think, you know, the, the tech and product world has really led, you know, and been brilliant in helping think thinking that way. But I think a lot of people can apply that, those sorts of timeframes and that sort of thinking to, to what they're doing if they're, even if they're not building, building digital product.
[00:43:48] Jonathan: Okay. So two strong pieces there. Be curious and read a lot, figure out what's going on and what you from. Strong short-term planning, strong long-term planning, and course correct between the two as you move along.
You know what, this really grinds my gears. Now Grace, this is the part of the show where we ask our guests what's been annoying them in their work life, uh, what has been grinding their gears. So Rich, what's been grinding your gears recently?
[00:44:30] Rich: Well, I dunno about necessarily specifically recently, but I mean we've, we've talked about the topic of curiosity a certain amount, and I have to say over, over my career, I've, I've consistently found it incredibly frustrating and.
Curious and interested about what's changing, you know, how things are, are developing, um, and, and thinking about, you know, how they could be adaptable towards that. Uh, it just, um, it just seems to me to be, uh, a kind of, it's a, it's a golden opportunity, sort of, you know, think ahead to. Interest, you know, to sort of expose yourself to some of that and be curious about it.
But it gives you a massive advantage to say, okay, if I have some understanding and a point of view about what's coming, it gives me a great opportunity. But, you know, uh, I, I find it really frustrating when some people, you know, wanna stick their heads in the sand and just think, okay. I'm either not curious about it or I don't really wanna engage with the fact that things are changing.
Uh, it's incredibly self-defeating.
[00:45:30] Paul: Uh, but, you know, do these days things are picking up. We were talking, uh, between ourselves about the speed at which AI's moving things and, uh, you know, love your short-term, long-term sort of cadence between planning. But how does one plan when you've got a new large language model every month and seemingly a new AI powered.
[00:45:49] Rich: And you, I mean, you're right so hard. I've personally, I hands on with things and trying as well as around how things are developing, but trying different tools, just getting a sense of them firsthand, you know, over the last six or 12 months. It's just incredibly hard to do that with the pace of change, the number of.
I also think I don't, just because it's a challenge doesn't mean you can't, you know, make, you know, certain moves in that direction and, and, you know, you can, you can filter it according to, you know, actually I'm just gonna focus on, you know, a couple of tools for the next, you know, two, three months, just regularly, you know, make sure I'm using them, see how they're developing.
The massive skills that's needed, uh, today and, and I'm sure going is the amount of information. And so we build ours according to, you know, where we are in our life and career. We have. Dedicate to, to these kinds of things. Um, and it'll look slightly different for everyone, but I think you, you do have to kind of take ownership of doing that, um, and make sure you're being curious and are looking forward in some way.
[00:47:10] Jonathan: This whole issue of curiosity, and I mean, it, it, it is traditionally been assumed that that. In Europe, and, you know, this is a, a show for Europe. Um, we can be, um, frankly, a little bit sniffy or, or snobby about new developments. And I think we touched on that earlier in this conversation, which, which is, you know, when the idea of braiders came along, the Americans in particular just grabbed it with both hands.
Yeah. In Britain, in Britain and in continental Europe and even in EA is seen as not very proper. I mean, how do we get over that?
[00:47:44] Rich: Yeah, I mean, you're right. Look, you know, it's, it's one of the great strengths of, uh, of America, isn't it? Is the willingness to embrace, you know, the new, uh, and, and jump into that.
And, um, uh, you know, I, I, I think Europe is, is getting better, has, has sort of, you know.
You 20 years or so of some of these big changes that actually there are, you know, there are opportunities. The key thing maybe is, is as um, businesses built around and on the internet, you know, including, you know, in and around the creator economy and as they as European, you.
People in Europe realize that actually this is now fundamental. It's not a kind of new, you know, thing that might be interesting, might not, and actually let's wait and see and let's prioritize our legacy businesses. Increasingly, these, these digital and platform oriented businesses are fundamental to European tech and Europe business.
So I think and hope that.
Proactive saying, okay, wanna be leaders in things. But there's no doubt it's a,
[00:49:04] Jonathan: we evolve that, but in the meantime, we all need to focus on, uh. Building our filters if we are to all move forward successfully.
They always say that if you want to get something done, you would give it to a busy person, and in Rich's case, you might not be surprised to know then that Rich gives his time to charity as a trustee of Teenage Cancer Trust. So. Rich, can you tell us a bit about Teenage Cancer Trust, how, how you got involved and, and what you and they get out of it?
[00:49:41] Rich: Yeah. Delighted to. So trust was set up, uh, over 20 years ago now with the, the, the premise and the idea that actually. Uh, teenagers and young people were kind of a little bit, um, forgotten in terms of cancer care and provision. There's a lot of focus on, you know, young children, pediatric cancer care, lot of focus on, on sort of older cohorts.
Um, uh, but there was a, you know, there was a group of teenagers, young people who, who weren't getting kind of age appropriate care. And if.
Finding out you have cancer, going through cancer treatment, actually you don't wanna be on the pediatric ward with your really young kids. You don't really wanna be on the adult ward. Um, and so what Teenage Cancer Trust did, um, is they built, uh, a series of, uh, over 20, um. Dedicated, uh, uh, age appropriate wards in hospitals around the uk and that is where teenagers and young people can receive, uh, their cancer care.
They can connect with, uh, especially trained nurses, um, and, uh, youth support coordinators. Uh, and it's just an amazing, an amazing organization, advocates for.
Delighted to get involved as a, as a trustee, uh, three years ago. Uh, and, um, you know, help, help them, uh, in various different ways as they're continuing to, to build and develop. You know, they have an amazing brand, but they're obviously continuing to try and, you know, build that brand, raise money, build awareness, um, which.
[00:51:25] Jonathan: So you're, you're a trustee, you know, it's a word people might be familiar with. Um, but what does it actually mean and, and what are your responsibilities? And I guess the, the question for, for, for different engine audiences, you know, should other busy people in tech. Consider being a, a charity trustee on top of their existing workload.
Uh, and also, is there really an upside in terms of what the experience of being a trustee would bring to your role in tech?
[00:51:54] Rich: So, being a trustee for anyone who who's not familiar basically means you are a, you know, you, you are a non-executive board member. So in the charity world is called being a trustee, but.
And so you primarily attend board meetings on a regular basis. You may be part of, you know, the subcommittees helping to manage, uh, and guide the strategy of the charity, you know, manage governance, uh, around the charity. So. It's a important role in terms of, as I say, supporting that overall strategy, the governance, working, um, with other board members and with the, you know, the CEO and the senior executive team in the charity to review, uh, strategies.
Think about, you know, opportunities or challenges provide, you know, essentially the classic, uh, you know, role.
Um, connections in some if you
considerations, and so.
You know, varying backgrounds and, and expertises and, and, and expertise. And so, you know, I try and bring, you know, my understanding in particular and knowledge of digital platforms, you know, uh, uh, as one area which is very, very relevant to Teenage Cancer Trust. And so that's an example of where, you know, where I, where I get involved and, uh, ask questions and try.
[00:53:30] Jonathan: So really rewarding experience that can expand your skillset as, as well as. You bringing stuff to that party. So if anybody listening wants to get involved with Th Cancer Trust, how can they make that happen?
[00:53:42] Rich: You can obviously, you know, find out lots of information about the charity on, on their website.
I definitely encourage that. Um, th Cancer Trust has a lot of, um, corporate, uh, supporters, uh, has a corporate. Um, uh, advisory board. So, uh, always looking for people who might be interested to help, uh, uh, uh, in, in those kinds of ways. You can get involved directly yourself, you know, you can raise money for the charity, the London marathons coming up.
There'll be, you know, thousands of people running for Teenage Cancer Trust. Cancer Trust just launched. If I could plug, which. Selling exclusive, uh, prints and merchandise from over 20 years of Teenage Cancer Trust, um, gigs and association with the music industry. So amazing. Like signed gig posters, you know, completely one off.
Like, so if you're a music fan, definitely, you know, check out teenage cancer online shop. And, um, so, so there's, there's of ways from individual.
Um, level of getting involved, uh, and I definitely recommend it.
[00:54:51] Jonathan: I guess in summary, then, don't forget that charities are also, uh, categories. Uh, so there's a lot to be learned there. Um, being involved will spread your knowledge and, and potentially feed your c. Curiosity and if you're interested in teenage cancer, trust a bit of a music fan.
Uh, head very, very quickly over to the Teenage Cancer Trust site and, and grab yourself some music memorabilia.
Thank you for listening. If you wanna learn more about category design, head to be categorical.com. If you need help designing and dominating your category, then get in touch. Contact details are in the show notes.