Devlin Peck: [00:00:00] Alright, hi everyone, we are here with Max Levasseur. Hello, Max.
Max Levasseur: Hi, everybody. How y'all doing today?
Devlin Peck: We're doing well. And we're glad that you're here with us. Yeah, the name, the goal of this session is to discuss how we can get recognized by recruiters. And Max, you are a recruiter at Activision Blizzard.
If we're gamers here, we've probably played some games that Activision Blizzard has touched. So big names. [Yes] And you have a long recruiting background too, which we would love to hear more about.
Max Levasseur: Definitely. Currently, I'm a talent sourcer at Activision Blizzard, and I focus on diversity and veteran hiring initiatives.
So it's super cool, because I get to reach out to people in the underrepresented communities, and I reach out to veterans, so that's the super awesome thing about my job right now. Previously I was in the Army. I spent 20 years in the Army. First I started off as an HR professional dealing with HR information systems.
Did that for about 10 years, and then I [00:01:00] went into Army recruiting, which was a lot of fun. Started in Miami, went to Orlando, and finished up in Washington D. C. Throughout that time, I was a part of the community outreach. I was second in command of the center, so planning out all the outreach and all those things was a part of my duties.
And now I'm here at Activision Blizzard, and it's super awesome because it's a gaming company. It's... Call of Duty, World of Warcraft, Overwatch Candy Crush. So being able to work on these outstanding IPs has been exceptional. And then finding people, because most people, this is like a passion for them.
Like to work for a company like this, it's like a passion, like a dream. And to be here working in that dream job and helping people fulfill their dreams is super cool.
Devlin Peck: Very nice. Yeah, great. Interesting job history, Martha says. I agree. Seems like Activision Blizzard is lucky to have you[00:02:00] with that experience that you're bringing to the table.
So that's great. And yeah, it sounds like a really fulfilling role that you're in now. Recruiting.
Max Levasseur: Yes, definitely.
Devlin Peck: And then you also hinted yesterday on LinkedIn that there are some open roles that you're going to discuss a bit today as well. So for people here, if your dream is to work with Max then it seems like you might have that opportunity.
Max Levasseur: Yes. And I'm going to put some of those jobs in the comments real quick.
Devlin Peck: Okay, and we can discuss those a bit later too. As you all may or may not know if you've been to these sessions before. I have some questions prepared, and then we'll get to all of your questions. Here we go, Curriculum Manager and Director of L& D.
That sounds like a good one. Good stuff. We'll share those links again at the end when we discuss those open positions. Thank you, Max.
Max Levasseur: No problem.
Devlin Peck: My next question for you is what type of roles do you recruit for, but it looks like there's quite the range.
Max Levasseur: Yeah, it ranges and [00:03:00] I think that's the awesome part about my specialty.
It ranges from software engineers, product managers, production, I think I'm going to do some art pretty soon, and then just being able to help out where there's a need for diverse candidates or veterans into the space, I jump in. My most recent project has been with Level Up U, which is a university that we're starting at Activision Blizzard to bring in software engineers who have beginner experience.
The class is mostly diverse, so that's why I was brought in on the project, but just ramping that project up and hearing more about Level Up U and the teachings and all those things, it's super impactful and awesome, so you can catch me anywhere at Activision Blizzard working on different roles, and you can always reach out.
Devlin Peck: Okay, nice, so not just L& D or ID specific roles, but across the organization it sounds like.
Max Levasseur: Yes, correct. If I don't work on the role, I'll point you in the right direction or get you in [00:04:00] contact with somebody who can work on that role.
Devlin Peck: So on LinkedIn, everyone here is welcome to connect with you as well, it sounds.
Max Levasseur: Yes, of course.
Devlin Peck: Okay, so most people here are in the ID, L&D space. I would say most people here, when they are looking for roles, they're individual contributor, instructional design roles. But I know some of this stuff will apply across roles. The next question I have for you is what you look for when reviewing a resume.
Max Levasseur: When reviewing a resume, normally I look for keywords. Resume, LinkedIn, there's certain keywords that stick out that the hiring manager is looking for or the talent professional is looking for. Those words put you at the top of the profile.
Skills are also something that I look towards. If you have certain skill sets, and it all varies based on the job. If we take the Curriculum Manager, for instance, we'll look for somebody who has a video game or technical background. That'd be nice. That'd be like the first thing I look for when I'm looking at instructional designers' profiles.
[00:05:00] The softwares that they work with and skills, if they work with an LMS like Saber or anything that'll stick out. The years of experience stick out. Those are the keywords that I hone in on. And it takes me about, once I build that keyword list, it takes me about 30 to 60 seconds to look at a resume and find out if that person's a match for what we're looking for at the time.
Devlin Peck: Wow, okay. So based on the open rule, you build the keyword list from that, and then you compare resumes and LinkedIn profiles to that keyword list you've built. 30 to 60 seconds, you can make a pretty good call about whether or not they might be a good fit.
Max Levasseur: Yes, correct. Because certain things they might have the years of experience, but no, they never worked with any of those LMSs, Learning Management Software Systems. There might be a mismatch there.
It's just basically drilling down into making sure that they have their complete match and it's what the hiring manager's looking for.
Devlin Peck: Okay, good. [00:06:00] And then Hyanna's question is, can we trust that the job post is going to include these keywords?
Max Levasseur: Not all the time. So when you have an intake meeting, and giving you insight into recruiting, we get different things from the hiring manager that might not be in the job description.
Most things are in the job description, and then there are certain must-haves that are like, I need this. It states it in the job description, I need this right here. Then you have like nice to haves, and those aren't requirements. So basically you use those things to field the perfect candidate or the best candidate.
So they might have the nice-haves but not the requirements. So that'll push a candidate to the top of the list and have the hiring manager look at them and be like hey, let me get some feedback on this person, because those must-haves we're not finding right now. When you look at a field - and we're doing a class on LinkedIn Insight - basically, you can just pull up how many professionals fit what you're looking for [00:07:00] under that requirements. So as a talent source, you have to look outside of that to say, hey, it's only 100 candidates that fit what you want. So now we're going to have to extend that search a little bit further out and find something else.
If you haven't, you're not able to connect with these 100 candidates if these 100 candidates didn't apply, they're not interested in the job, so we have to reach out to them and find out why they're not interested, what's stopping them from taking this role.
Devlin Peck: Okay, I see. So all the responsibilities might be there, all the requirements might be there in the listing, but you as the recruiter or the hiring manager, they'll know these ones are like the most important or these are the must-haves.
So not every bullet point in that job listing essentially is created equal.
Max Levasseur: No, and that's the interesting thing about sourcing. Everything's not created equal. The job descriptions are great. And they're a basis. And you shouldn't be turned down because of the keywords. The keywords won't get you out of it.[00:08:00]
But what happens is that job description fields people to apply. I think for these roles, I think they had 150 to 200 people apply for the role. With that number of people applying, the recruiter goes through those resumes. They find out who should we talk to. And then after that, it's no more interest.
So then they call in like a talent sourcer to go out and find more people to put into that, right? So it'll be a more personal conversation where I'll be like, hey I see that you work at this company. Are you interested in moving over to Activision Blizzard in this role? You have everything that we're looking for.
And then the conversation goes from there and then you end up building a relationship because this might not be the time. They might love where they're working at. They might be working on a special project or certain curriculum that they got off the ground and they plan on pushing forward and they want to see it to its end.
So it might not be the time for that person and you can go back to the hiring manager and say, hey, I got the perfect [00:09:00] candidate, but they're not open for six months. You know what I'm saying? In six months, they might be open to this job. I don't know if you have six months to wait. I don't know if the person under them can do the job.
Like the person that will be reporting to them, can they do the job for six months until they get here? And then that's something that the hiring manager has to take into consideration.
Devlin Peck: Yeah, so it's not just the people that are putting their names in the hat. You, or the recruiting team, or the talent sourcing team is also going out and looking for people who may not have applied, but who may be a perfect fit for the role.
Max Levasseur: Correct.
Devlin Peck: I see.
Max Levasseur: And that's the fun thing about being a talent sourcer. I think that's like my favorite part of the job. I get to go look for people that might not be looking for an opportunity and then this is the perfect opportunity for them.
Devlin Peck: Yeah, I could see how that would be rewarding, finding that perfect fit and then bringing them on board and seeing them do well in the role.
I can see how that would be very fun. I see more great questions coming in the chat. What role does a portfolio play when you're reviewing an application? If you're spending [00:10:00] 60 seconds on a resume, do you have time for the portfolio?
Max Levasseur: The portfolio really doesn't come into play because I'm not a subject matter expert.
Sometimes recruiters are subject matter experts, but me as a talent sourcer, I'm not a subject matter expert when it comes to that, especially in my role because it's really niche. It's diversity and veterans. Now, say for instance, we had a recruiter that specializes in instructional design and L&D.
That person would be more of a subject matter expert because they get those roles coming in. So they would take the time to look at a profile and they know how to break down a profile really fast. Me, my goal is to push the candidate to the recruiter and be like, hey, I think this person's a fit.
Check out their profile. And then they'll take that time. And I'm going to use production because this is, these are my first L& D roles that I'm helping source for and it's like a side project because I'm doing this and I was like, I need to know more about instructional design and L& D. So they told me more about it.
I [00:11:00] so happened to be working on that Level Up U project, so it opened the door for me to ask more questions. But we'll take production. Producers have profiles and level designers have profiles. I'll look at it. To me, all of it looks cool because it's something that I can't do.
That's the first thing. So I'm gonna be like, oh, that profile looks cool. Then I'll forward it to a professional. This is what they do. They know what they're looking at. They'll look at it and break it down. The profile that I sent yesterday - and this is production - basically, it was like, hey, this is a great profile.
He can do everything that we're looking for. The other guy, he had similar stuff on his profile, but it was more like, oh, he can do mobile. He could look at the profile and tell the difference between mobile and console and mobile. They could do everything. It's a difference between those profiles.
I think the same probably would come with instructional design based on how you're writing curriculum and things like that, that they can look at that profile and be like, this is a plan that we can stick to and move forward with. [00:12:00]
Devlin Peck: Okay. I see. So you're not necessarily reviewing these portfolios.
You're sending them to someone who has that subject matter expertise and can make more sense of like what they're looking at because they're working as an instructional designer or in the curriculum development space. That makes sense.
Max Levasseur: Correct.
Devlin Peck: And so I guess the portfolio with this system, someone reviews it after that like first pass where you're looking over the keywords.
Max Levasseur: Correct, after I look over the keywords, I'll send it forward basically trying to figure out if this person's a match. If I hear that they're a match then I'll reach back out to them and say, hey somebody's interested in talking to you. Usually within two weeks you'll have somebody reach out and talk to you about it.
Devlin Peck: Okay, great. But if you don't pass that keyword check, if you review this, one of these resumes in 30 to 60 seconds, and it's they don't seem like they'd be a great fit, no one's going to be looking at that person's portfolio website.
Max Levasseur: Not unless they apply.
Devlin Peck: True, okay. I see.
Max Levasseur: And then if they apply it's more of the top candidates get pushed to [00:13:00] the top.
The computer has AI. So a lot of recruiting has taken on the AI systems, and the AI system tells you who's the top candidate based on the skills and all that stuff, once again, back to the keywords, and skills, and what you're looking for in a candidate, it'll push those people with all those things to the top, and the AI is so smart that it will translate that data. Say for instance, it's not in corporate. Say for instance, you've worked in the military or you've worked in higher education. It'll be able to translate that data and be like, hey, this person's good. They don't have that specific thing, but they're close enough to it where you should be able to talk to them.
So AI is getting a lot smarter and I love it.
Devlin Peck: Okay, nice. Yeah, I could see how that would make your job a bit more streamlined, help do some of that initial work. So I guess, yeah. Where do referrals come into play with that? I know there's a common conversation around, ' beat the ATS by getting a referral, make it to the [00:14:00] top of the pile'.
Max Levasseur: Referrals are good because at the end of the day you can talk to that hiring manager. You have a personal connection, nine times out of ten with somebody in that company, so you can reach out on that person's behalf and that's how it gets pushed to the top of the pile.
It'll say in the system that it was a referral. But that person who's referring you needs to take that extra step. They need to reach out to the hiring manager or that recruiter and say, hey, my friend or my associate, or I have a referral for this role.
And then when they reach out, that pushes them to the top. Because if you call me, like Devlin, if you work in that division, and you call me and say, hey, I got an instructional designer. I trust you because this is your thing. They'll move to the top. You know what I'm saying? [Yeah] Networking is important and building relationships is the most important thing I think in this job. You gotta have the skills, but like that relationship building is so important and so impactful.
Devlin Peck: Yeah. And we see that happen time and time again in people looking for roles, the [00:15:00] power of these referrals and the power of networking. And yeah, it always happens when it happens organically, people are meeting in these like social platforms or whatever it is, building that relationship.
And then one person's looking for a role, the person they were networking with is, hey, we have an open role, we need a new, another instructional designer or learning experience designer or whatever it is. So we see that happen time and time again. So nice to know that still holds, or maybe nice to know, maybe that's, how do you all feel about it here?
I know some people get intimidated by networking or they like, don't get it, or they feel icky about it.
Max Levasseur: I feel like networking, it may be difficult, but the thing is, you know somebody. And when you know somebody, think it's very important and impactful to reach out to that person. And I know it might feel awkward at first but once you do it one time, and you do it two times, that third time is usually the charm where you're like, alright, I can talk to this person, because it's the same conversation. It's more like, hey, me and you know each [00:16:00] other from this. I see you work at this company. I see this role online. Could you get me more information about it? It feels like you're asking for a favor and you owe them something, but really it's not a favor to them because they work at the company.
It's too simple for them to reach out and talk to people like in that company. Now, if the person doesn't reach out or reach back out to you with some information, you lost nothing in the fact. But if they say yes, I talked to the person who's the hiring manager. Look at all that you've gained.
You're already at a 'no'. And this is how I tell my everybody that deals with networking with me. You're already at a 'no', so what does it hurt for you to ask that person a question that might turn into a 'yes' and open up numerous opportunities?
Devlin Peck: Yeah. I see. So yeah, it's like what's the worst that could happen? So you're saying you're leading.
Max Levasseur: Yeah. You're already at the worst. That could happen because you're not take - you miss every shot that you don't take.
Devlin Peck: Yeah. So you're saying like, it couldn't hurt to ask, I've heard like, 'closed mouths don't get fed'. I like that one [laughs].
Max Levasseur: I think [00:17:00] those all are important in it. You have to ask those questions.
You have to step out of your shell sometimes and speak to people that you normally wouldn't speak to, or speak to people that you haven't reached out to in a while. It's people that you've worked with in the past that's gone on to do other things in their lives and they're in a position where they can help you, and they will help you if you ask. But if you don't ask, they probably won't. They don't even know that you need help. And I think that's super important because nobody knows what you need. And I think everybody in this world is willing to help. There's some people out there's not willing to help, but you probably should know those people already and it's still worth it to ask because they may have changed. Time changes people [yeah] so, that's what I'll say.
Devlin Peck: Yeah, so you're saying not just focusing on like building new relationships, but also tapping into ones that you already have [yes]. People may already be willing to help you because they already do know you.
Max Levasseur: Correct. Most of the time we focus on building new [00:18:00] relationships, which is super awkward, but we have a network of people that we've already talked to, we've already worked with before, that we just haven't talked to since they left.
And it's not because of, you didn't like them, or they didn't like you. It's because life moves so fast, and with life moving fast, we just forget about things, and it gets out of season, but that doesn't mean that person forgot about you, or you forgot about them. So just reaching out, building that relationship, rebuilding the bridge, because now you're asking for something, and it's not like your world depends on it if you get it, you know what I'm saying?
It'd be great to have this, but it's not like, oh, thanks for trying. You know what I'm saying? And not in a bad way, but I'm glad I reconnected with you because in the future still, you might still can use them, or they might still be able to use you for something, where you're able to help each other and just build that community. Having a community is very important, I think.
Devlin Peck: Yeah, that's what we see happening a lot. Yeah, people helping [00:19:00] one another. I help you today, maybe you help me tomorrow. Yeah, the community aspect. I think we can all connect with that, all the people who are here today. Catching up on the chat, I think there may have been a little bit of confusion, or maybe we just want some clarification, but the 60 second resume glance - is it more important than the portfolio and getting seen by a hiring manager?
From what I understand, it seems like initially, that glance is going to decide, would you even be a possible good fit for this role? If not, it sounds like people aren't going to spend time reviewing the portfolio. If it does seem like it could be a good fit for the portfolio, or for the role, then it gets passed along to a subject matter expert or hiring manager who knows more about what you'd be doing, and then the portfolio gets reviewed.
Max Levasseur: Yes, the latter. The 30 to 60 second glance, it sucks because it's the reality of being a sourcer, being a recruiter, because you can't spend a lot of time looking at things, and you know what you're looking for in a search. And this is why it's important to build relationships, because your [00:20:00] LinkedIn profile might not have, and sometimes LinkedIn profiles that have nothing on them will get pushed to the top, which is interesting, because we need to know more about you, like something's missing, so you don't have any bullets in your LinkedIn profile.
It gives me the opportunity to reach out to you and be like, hey, what's going on? What have you done? You pull up in the search, but... you don't have anything here. Fill in the details. And then other times it's like people get caught up on it, but it's not the biggest thing. It's just that role might not have been for you and that's why you need that network of people to reach out to the company so that they can know that you're interested in it and that you're a fit for it.
Devlin Peck: Yeah, it seems like networking is a great way to get more than that 30 to 60 second consideration. So, I think if nothing else, it's emphasizing the importance of that. We have a question. I guess networking, if it is like meeting new people, Beth is curious, do you feel like an important part of networking requires being active on social media, such as TikTok [00:21:00] or Instagram?
Max Levasseur: Not really. Networking is about finding the people that work in certain locations. All this information, most of this information is public knowledge. Social media might help you get to that ends, but Instagram, LinkedIn, TikTok, those things might help you get seen by somebody who's looking for something because they're used for searches, too.
The more you post on LinkedIn, the more you get seen. And if you're posting about somebody in your community, Devlin, the more they post and the more people in your community that like it, the more likely I am to see it. If I'm a hiring manager for instructional design that follows your community or follows you, then I get to see that information because Devlin liked it, somebody else in my community liked it, so now I know the name.
The name, and we used to say this with army recruiting, it takes six impressions before somebody [00:22:00] actually thinks about doing something. So the more they see your name, the more likely they are to feel like they know you, even though they don't. It's just... It's just how our brains work based on sales and recruiting.
So you stick out to somebody the more you are engaged on those communities, but that's not the only way to get recognized.
Devlin Peck: Yeah, we see that happen. And then too when, we have hiring managers or potential clients reach out to me or other people in the community who aren't available and then we'll talk to each other. It's oh, do you know someone looking for freelance opportunities right now?
Oh, do you know someone interested in a full time role here? So yeah, it doesn't just happen directly with the hiring manager, but it can also be levels removed where other people are referring you to other people and you're finding your way there. But I know that can be like a longer approach because it does depend on the right person seeing your post like at the right time, maybe.
You kind of also mentioned like some direct outreach?
Max Levasseur: Yeah, reaching out to people directly. And the way that I went about doing that when I was going through the hiring process, it's [00:23:00] just a simple message saying, hey I'm interested in your company.
I see that we share a connection through somebody else. We have a mutual connection. Or if you don't have a mutual connection, maybe something in your careers lineup. Like y'all went to the same college, or your son went to that college. Anything that connects people. A lot of times people overthink it.
A cousin, a daughter, a niece, whatever, went to this college. So it'll be great to talk to you for five to ten minutes about this role. It's only five to ten minutes. It's not like somebody's taking a lot of time out of their day to speak to somebody for five to ten minutes. So when you do that initial request, when it's like a cold outreach, that way the other person on the other end feels more inclined to do it.
They're like, oh, I could talk to this person for ten minutes or five minutes, and the five minutes ends up turning into 30 minutes. It's just the way the brain works. They might block you off for five minutes, but they're not putting anything else in that time space [00:24:00] within that five minutes, within a 30 minute window.
So the conversation usually goes on longer. Some people are serious and about their time, so they'll get off when that five minute mark ends. But most people end up holding that conversation for 30 minutes because they have nothing else after it.
Devlin Peck: I see. So just opening the door, trying to get on a call with someone.
Maybe it's more like an informational interview, like getting to know them, asking about the role. Keeping a pretty low commitment, five minutes, and then if the conversation is going well, it sounds like it can often last longer.
Max Levasseur: Correct. Yep. Or they set up a follow up conversation. If they only really have five minutes, they'll be like, hey, I want to talk to you longer about this, and they'll set up that call.
And even if it doesn't land you a position, it puts you in that person's mind it. Oh, this was a great person to talk to. I'll think about them for other roles, or I'll think about them like, I might not have anything at this company that you fit for right now, but it's something somewhere else that you might be a fit for.
Devlin Peck: Okay, nice. So that is probably more [00:25:00] direct than a lot of people are familiar with, but you are asking in the first message let's hop on a call. Doesn't need to be for an hour. Let's hop on for a few minutes. But from the very first message, you're basically saying, let's hop on a call and talk about this if you can.
Nice. And then I imagine, we probably shouldn't expect every single person that we ask, to hop on a call with us. It probably is somewhat of a numbers game [laughs]. Yeah. In your experience, are most people hopping on the calls?
Max Levasseur: Most people hop on the calls. Me and my colleague take calls all day long just from veterans based on my position veterans reach out, and no issues at all , like they'll reach out, say something. Sometimes they give me a long bio, and I don't even read that, like I read like the last few seconds of it. And not a knock on their long bio or their long story, I'm just like, what's the point of this message? And then I find it. And then I'm like, oh, they want to talk, and then I'll send them a calendar invite, or I'll surface them to Veterati, which [00:26:00] is like a mentoring thing that has my time blocked already on the calendar, so they can pick a space, and they get an hour long conversation through Veterati. Instead of having the 5 to 10 minute conversation, they get that 15, that hour long conversation with me if they sign up through Veterati. It's a couple of options and then we could go through - so we're always taking calls as talent sources, we'll stay on the phone, talk to people, help them figure out where they want to be and how they can land there.
Devlin Peck: Okay, so is that who you recommend, or that's who you're suggesting maybe people reach out to our talent sourcers, recruiters, hiring managers even?
Max Levasseur: I suggest you reach out to anybody at the company. [Okay, good] Yeah, anybody at the company that you have a connection with because it's just, it's all about building that relationship.
It seems weird, but it's not as weird as you think it is, because most people want to help people. It's not the latter and a lot of times you get in your head space and feel like, oh they're not gonna want to talk to me because I [00:27:00] don't have what they're looking for, or I seem weird reaching out to them. I think my time as an army recruiter might have been prepping me for this, because I just talked to a whole bunch of people and I know I'm gonna get a whole bunch of 'no's, or somebody not responding to me, and I don't take it as a shot at my ego or confidence level Because they said no, because like I said before, I was already at a 'no' before I talked to you. So my goal is to get to 'yes', and it's not to get to 'yes' with you, because I'm sending this message to a hundred people.
I'm talking to a hundred people. You know what I'm saying? My goal is to get to 'yes' with one of them. And then Maybe I change my messaging. When I change my messaging, I get to 10. I change it a little bit more. I get to 20. You know what I'm saying? So those are the goals that I'm trying to reach. It's not that I'm trying to reach all 100.
And you might feel like, oh, I'm spamming people. Either they're going to read it, they're going to respond, or they're not. And it's not going to be a knock on you. And I think a lot of [00:28:00] times as people, we usually get into ourselves and we start analyzing it afterwards. Oh, it must've been something on my profile that they didn't like.
Nah, they was probably busy and they just ignored it, or they don't even use LinkedIn. And you've already built this wall up where you've defeated yourself. And the goal is not for you to defeat yourself, it's to keep pushing for opportunities because your goal is that you want to land somewhere where you can make an impact.
And the only way that you can land in those spots is by reaching out to more people, because it'll help you get into that space that you want to be in. That's how I feel.
Devlin Peck: That's good. I think that resonated with a lot of people. I saw a lot of thumbs up emojis coming up on the screen. But yeah, that seems like it's a very active approach to like networking and trying to land those opportunities. So that's a great message to spread.
I think it's going to help some people here who are currently looking, so...
Max Levasseur: Yeah, I hope I help people. That's my goal every day. Help somebody and learn something new. [00:29:00]
Devlin Peck: It's helpful for you all? Let's get some more of those thumbs up emojisl Looks like a yes to me. Very nice. Okay, cool. So we still have some time.
We still have some time with you all. I have a couple more questions. I see we have a question from Caroline about cover letters. I know that's a common thing people wonder about.
Max Levasseur: Cover letters are good. They're not bad, but make sure your cover letter is written well, because it could be the thing that throws you out.
And that's the interesting thing about cover letters. It could make you or break you. And if it's not, like if it has grammatical errors, things like that in there, that might be an issue. But it's the thing that could take you over the top, because you're able to give a snapshot of who you are and why you want this role and what makes you stand out.
And that can be written in a cover letter, and most hiring managers read those. Recruiters sometimes, but they will read them. It's not like a knock. I think that it's good having them, but like I said, make sure that [00:30:00] it's good to go, because some people aren't talkers. They can't get all their thoughts out during an interview. They can't show their true passion in their writers. And in a field like Instructional Design where you might end up being a writer of curriculum, it is a good place to show those writing skills and show that passion that you have for helping people learn and helping build curriculum and seeing that spark in kids' eyes or adults' eyes when they finally get it.
When you see a staff of managers end up learning how to manage their people correctly, because before it was inefficient. Now They're effective, like all those things matter. And being able to write it on the paper, it's pretty good because some people can't spell it out.
Devlin Peck: Good point. Yeah, that sounds like portfolios, too. If it's a really bad portfolio, it might do more harm than good It seems like it's the same way with like cover letters. Yeah, if you're going to do it, make sure it's well written, compelling.
Max Levasseur: Make sure people proofread it.[00:31:00] Don't sell yourself short when you do the cover letter. Make sure you have it proofread, and somebody else sees it. Make sure that your thoughts - 'cause me, when I write stuff, I'm always missing words, because my brain's moving so fast, and I just think that it's right. And then I just send it, and then my wife goes and looks at my Facebook posts and be like, are you smart or dumb? I know you're smart, but this makes you look dumb. And I be like, oh, I missed a word. You see the word? You know what I was trying to say.
And, it's too late. Everybody's seen it at that point. And then they start judging you based off of that. And you don't want that to be the judgment. You're a rock star and you just missed one word, and it made you look un-rockstarish.
Devlin Peck: [Laughs] Yeah, great analogy there. Yeah, that's funny. How important are certificates or certifications? That's another common question.
Max Levasseur: I think certificates and certifications are important. Sometimes, especially with these systems, like these [00:32:00] learning systems, if you're using Saba and you're certified in Saba, I think that's a good thing. But some people are certified in things and never really used them.
Which, say for instance me, I'm certified in Adobe Creative Suite. I know how to use it, but I'm no professional. But I could put that on my resume, and then if somebody start asking me questions about it, I'm shooting in the dark. Meanwhile, somebody who doesn't have the certification that's like a ultra user, they can talk about it all day.
So where does that certification land me? Certification was good for me to put on a resume, but I wasn't able to talk about how I could use the system, when a person without the certification was able to talk about how they could use the system. So if you have a certification, basically what I'm saying is, know the system that you have the certification in.
And know what you're talking about with that certification. And make sure it relates to that job somewhere. Far too often project managers get project PMP certifications, but that [00:33:00] doesn't matter if you can't use Asana or Jira or the systems that they use for project management. If you don't know anything about them the PMP's cool, but how does it help?
Devlin Peck: Yeah, so it seems like you're saying it's more about the practical skills. If you're certified or have a certificate for the practical skill that you can put to practice, great. But it's really about the skills that you can bring to the table.
Max Levasseur: Correct. Because it moved you to the top of the list with a certification, without a shadow of a doubt because some people look for certifications, but then when you get to the interview and you're not able to talk about it, that's where you wash out.
So it's just important. And I've seen it too many times, and that's why I bring it up. And the number one thing is PMP. That's the number one certification that I see people have, and then you be like, hey, so tell me about this software that you use and they're like, oh I don't use no software.
And then it's, okay have a nice day, and move on to [00:34:00] the next person, because it's important to have the certification but know about the software and even if you don't know about the software and you use something else, being able to go look at that software before the interview or beforehand and talk about the software that you use previously and the similarities with this software that the company wants to use.
I know about HR information systems. All of them are pretty much the same. Don't have any certifications in them, but I'm able to look at whatever HR information system that's being used at a company and being able to relate it to what I've used previously. All these systems are pretty much cookie cutter.
It's some features that's different that make it better. And you can even say that, I wonder what makes Jira better than this. And then that leads to a conversation because now you're trying to figure out more about that system and it's it shows your willingness to learn.
Devlin Peck: Yeah, that's a good point. And there have been many similarities in like the ID space, it's one eLearning authoring tool, a team might use another. You can [00:35:00] help bridge that gap and explain, this is a tool I'm familiar with. Here's how it's similar to that one. I could see how that would go a long way.
Max Levasseur: Yeah, and it bridges the gaps and it shows that you took time to prepare for the interview.
A lot of times people walk into interviews not prepared and that shows that you actually took time and that goes back to those conversations with people that work in a company. Like if you reach out to somebody working in a company for a five to ten minute conversation, you can ask them these questions like, what kind of system you use?
How does the process normally look here? So you're preparing for an interview, you're preparing for a role and then you're able to speak that in the interview so you know what this company's looking for because of your previous conversations with different colleagues of theirs.
Devlin Peck: Okay. And that was one of the other questions I had for you is like, how do we do this preparation?
How do we research these companies or roles? And it seems like you've been mentioning this very like person first approach. Try to talk to people. Try to get on calls with people in the company. That's going to be your number one source of information, it sounds like.
Max Levasseur: That's the [00:36:00] number one source of information because people tell you everything.
Devlin Peck: [Laughs] Yeah.
Max Levasseur: Not willingly, or they tell me anything. I don't know if it works for everybody, but the more you ask questions, the more people tell you. And most of the things about a company, if you look at the softwares, most companies have sponsorship with those companies. So if you go to Eightfold, and that's the AI system that we use, when it says companies who use Eightfold, our company's name is going to show up there.
So the software will tell you who uses that product because the way that they get more people to use their product is telling other people that this is an industry leading product. So by showing other companies that use it and used it successfully, that keeps their name relevant. So you can look there.
Where else? LinkedIn, probably. If you go to different forms, you can see who the speakers are for these companies that have software and things like that.[00:37:00] And that's the way that you can learn. Cause if you go to a conference for Eightfold, you'll see somebody from our company spoke there.
So of course we've used it. And you can see the other companies that use it. Just Workforce or Salesforce. The people who speak at those conferences, the industry leaders in Workforce or Salesforce, aren't strictly from Workforce or Salesforce. They're from companies who use the software.
So now you can say, oh, this company uses that software, let me reach out to them, because you could say, hey, I watched your speech on this. And that's the other thing about reaching out to people. If they have a speech somewhere, or they talked about something somewhere. If somebody says, hey, I saw you on Devlin's YouTube channel.
I'm going to be in glamour and be like, oh, for real, you saw me on Devlin's YouTube channel? I'm going to be already excited. It pumps into my ego. So of course I'm going to talk to you. And it's not a gimmick, but that's just the truth. If you know a little bit about me, and you know where I'm at, and you've watched videos with me on them.
I'm more open to have a [00:38:00] conversation with you, and that's the same with everybody in this world. And it's crazy, and that's how I open the door to a lot of conversations. Even when I'm sourcing candidates, I'll check out what they've produced on YouTube, because sometimes LinkedIn shows you like their YouTube videos.
I'll take 30 seconds, watch their YouTube video, pull a question out of that, and be like, hey, I watched your YouTube video on this. I had this question. It was a very insightful conversation that you had with this person. And it shows that you actually took the time to find out more about me. And that person, 9 times out of 10, will reply to my email when I send it to them.
They'll be like, oh, I'm glad you enjoyed my conversation. I'm not looking for a job right now. I'm currently happy where I'm at. They still responded. Most of the times they'll respond.
Devlin Peck: Yeah, that goes a long way too just speaking on that. Yeah, because I get a lot of like outreach or messages and a lot of it does seem spammy, like it could be sent to 20 other people but the ones that do mention, oh yeah, I saw your content, I've been following your YouTube [00:39:00] content, great video about this, definitely, yeah I give more attention to it or respond and thank them at the very least. Good point.
Max Levasseur: Even works on Devlin.
Devlin Peck: Like you said, it probably works with everyone. I know some people when they're researching roles or people to reach out to, they like find their like blogs, like personal blogs, professional blogs, and they yeah, mentioned content they've seen on there.
So yeah, see what they're producing, what they're putting out there to the world and take a little bit of time at least to engage with it or see what they're all about [yeah]. Good suggestion. I see some people in the chat were saying they literally just sent you that message, like before you mentioned it. [Laughter]
Max Levasseur: That's awesome. So I'm probably going to respond. I'll be like, oh, they watched me on Devlin, even though they said it in the comments. [Laughter]
Devlin Peck: Okay I think the last question I have for you is, it's about years of experience.
Is that non negotiable in most cases?
Max Levasseur: It depends on the hiring manager, to be honest. Sometimes it's non negotiable. [00:40:00] They have that years of experience for a certain reason. Recruiters can sway it. Talent sourcers can definitely sway it. The way that talent sourcers sway it is basically coming at it as, ' we've talked to all the people that have 8 plus years of experience. This person has 6 and a half, or 6 years of experience. And they do the job very well. They're an industry leader on this. They use these softwares. They are the person that you want, that can grow into this role and make it better. They're innovative', those things stick out. It all depends on the hiring manager, because the hiring manager will make that ultimate decision that, do I want to take a chance with this? It's a reason sometimes why they put that years of experience out there. Maybe in previous roles that they had somebody with less experience.
Or maybe them themselves walked into a role where it was supposed to be like 8 to 10 years experience and they had 7 years or 6 years and they knew they weren't ready for that role. But every person is [00:41:00] different so at the end of the day you rock out an interview and you have 6 years of experience and it's asking for 8 to 10, I'm pretty sure they're going to have a hard decision in that room unless they have a candidate with 8 to 10 years and they're just as much of a rock star as you are [I see]. But if you have candidates with eight to ten years, and they're just like, 'they're like a star player, they're not a rock star. They're no superstar, but they can hold their own', but you have a superstar with six years experience, I think that they can elevate.
Devlin Peck: Okay, nice. So it's not a deal breaker for recruiter or talent sourcer generally unless the hiring manager says like it's absolutely necessary.
Max Levasseur: It's absolutely necessary and we'll bring those candidates to the forefront. It's just the hiring manager makes the ultimate decision. And it's team.
Devlin Peck: Good to know. Let's see, maybe we have time to get to a couple more of these most upvoted questions. We have a question from Elliot about how important it is to know a particular LMS.
I find that they pretty much have the same features. I think we touched on that with, if you know a [00:42:00] similar tool, you can help bridge the gap for the, during the interview process...
Max Levasseur: Correct. That's the ultimate thing. I don't think you have to know a certain tool.
It's just about bridging the gap and knowing that, all right, cool I know this, and this is similar to this ,because most of all these systems are the same to me. It might be a different user interface that you're more comfortable with. It's like Android and iPhone people get into battles about Android is better than iPhone.
Is it really? I'm an iPhone user so I'm biased but It's not really that different. It's just what you like as a user. You like that you can manipulate Android more. Same thing with these learning management softwares. Some softwares you can manipulate more, some you can't. It just locks it down. So just being able to talk those pieces and how they're all similar.
It is apps that you can get on iPhone that you can't get on Android, [00:43:00] but most common things you can get on both. And that way, it's just figuring out those differences and being able to talk about them.
Devlin Peck: Okay, good point. And then the final question we have is from Martha, which is similar to this, and I think we're all curious to hear your take.
Martha wants to learn new skills on the next job. How do I find jobs that would consider me when I don't have those particular experiences? Some people want to learn on the job.
Max Levasseur: Okay, I would take self development into the hand. The reason why I say self development is because it's so many free resources out here that you can use.
LinkedIn offers a bunch of courses on all kinds of stuff that, I clicked on LinkedIn one day and I didn't even know they had a course on talent sourcing. And I was like, oh, I'm gonna take it because I was bored that day. And it's not a long or drawn out course. It's like a 15, like a 30 minute course with somebody talking.
And then they ask you a few questions in the middle of it. Do you know what you get after you finish that? [00:44:00] A LinkedIn certificate that shows up on your LinkedIn profile. Same thing with taking courses with other companies, like the library offers a lot of things resources that you can do, use to get more skills.
And getting those skills before you walk into the workforce is not like it's going to be the groundbreaking thing that gets you in, but it's your ability to say, hey, I've taken the time, my personal time, to learn this, and I want to learn more at your job, because I don't have it all together, but I have these basic knowledges.
I have a basic knowledge base, and a lot of people who work in the job don't even take the time to take those courses, and they don't know half the stuff about the system that you would if you just take those courses. I'll say that.
Devlin Peck: Nice. So take your professional development into your own hands, take that initiative, and build some of those skills on your own time, so that when you do get into that interview, you can make that case, and
show that you're not just waiting for the company to invest in you, you're investing in yourself.
Max Levasseur: Yes, that is correct.
Devlin Peck: Great, good point. Okay, everyone, [00:45:00] that is the end of the hour with Max.
Max Levasseur: Devlin, thank you so much for inviting me. I'm glad to engage with your community. Like y'all have done before, reach out. I'm not gonna shy away from it. I might not get to you till next week. I'm just going to be honest. So don't be mad at me. But I'll definitely reach back out.
Devlin Peck: Thank you, Max. I see tons of applause and all the emojis people are throwing up on the screen. So thank you for that everyone. And we will see you next time. Talk to you all soon. Thanks again.