Devlin: [00:00:00] Right now, we’re doing a special series on, How to Become an Instructional Designer. We’ve compiled our most valuable content from interviews and question and answer sessions with top experts on how to become an ID to help you launch your own thriving instructional design career. So let’s get started with Episode 6 in the series, Acing Your Instructional Design Interview with Joanna Cappuccilli.
Devlin Peck: All right. Hi, everybody. We are here today with Joanna Cappuccilli. Hello, Joanna.
Joanna Cappuccilli: Hi, everyone.
Devlin Peck: You all may know Joanna already because we did a Q&A with her about our transition from teaching into instructional design in the tech space. So that's where we went over Joanna's entire journey. But this session is about acing the ID interview specifically.
And as we hinted from the last session, you could tell Joanna knows her stuff when it comes to the interview process. I know you spent over 50 hours of prep when you were going through it and I know you've I've only been learning more since then. So that's what we're getting into today.
I have some questions prepared for Joanna to get us started. [ Awesome.] Alright so I guess we'll pick up [00:01:00] the journey from like after you've completed your portfolio website. Your resume was in good shape, and then you started putting your name in the hat again, part two, now that you know you're more competitive with the portfolio for people who know your backstory.
Joanna Cappuccilli: Yes. Yeah. So I went through several stages and then once I started getting interviews, it was obviously really exciting, but then reality sets in about, okay, now I actually have to go into this interview and try to ace it.
And I think I definitely had... I was very nervous going into it, had a lot of anxiety about wanting to present myself in the best way. And I think at that point I'd been on this journey for so long that I was putting a lot of pressure on succeeding in these interviews. And I wasn't working at the time, so I just really wanted to do well.
So my mindset was, I was definitely really nervous. And I think I often err on the side of being more introverted too. So then there was that aspect as well. But I think also too, just, I had to remind myself like, getting that interview was the first step, and that was just something to take a moment and be proud of as well, so that's [00:02:00] where I was battling those two feelings going into the process.
Devlin Peck: Okay, nice, because yeah, you had invested probably 10 months of time now, right? [Yeah.] You wound up leaving your job, you're, like, fully committed to this thing, you've been investing tons of time, you invested money into making this transition happen, so... now you're getting the interviews and yeah, you're feeling a lot of pressure.
I guess you're like, if I mess up at this point, I'm still not going to have the job. So I could see how, yeah, especially if you're more introverted. And I'm sure a lot of us here can relate to that. That can be anxiety inducing for sure. But you reframed it in your mind before even going into the interviews.
And you're like, let's just count this as a win. Just, this is just an opportunity, this is just a win to be in this position in the first place.
Joanna Cappuccilli: Yeah, I think there was a lot of kind of self reflection and I guess empowering myself throughout that process just to get to combat the nerves and the anxiety and that introverted feeling.
And I think that's where looking back at everything I'd done and just even getting the interview and being like, I should [00:03:00] really just applaud myself for getting this far, you know, and then and that's where I dove into preparation because I think in general, I'm someone that's going to prepare if I'm nervous, but this, that's why I went crazy and did 50 to 60 hours because I just felt if I keep pushing myself and keep preparing, then the less nervous I'll be when I actually get into these interviews.
Devlin Peck: Okay. Nice. So yeah, that, that makes sense. So now we got into the 50 hours of interview prep, I got this opportunity, I'm not gonna mess it up. You're like, I have the time. So yeah, let's figure out how to make this happen. And I guess that's what you're gonna be sharing with us today.
You're gonna condense some of that 50 hours of what you've learned and the experience you had going through it into this hour long session.
Joanna Cappuccilli: Yes. Summarize everything.
Devlin Peck: So I'm sure there are many places we could dive into from there, but one of the most common places where IDs may struggle in an interview is reframing that experience, especially people who are transitioning into the field.
They don't have formal ID experience. I've talked to a lot of people where they're like, oh, I've been on maybe five or ten interviews, but [00:04:00] I'm not getting any offers. And the only feedback I'm getting is that I don't have enough experience. [Yeah] How did you approach that? You didn't have a formal ID job before, but how did you approach talking knowledgeably and presenting that air of experience, if you will?
Joanna Cappuccilli: Yeah. Yeah, that's a really good question. That's something I struggled with in the beginning too, because I did get a couple of interviews, but I don't think I was presenting myself as someone that, had the skillset. And I think that's where it came back to reflecting on all my experience.
And I always say this a lot, but I started a document where I just went through every point on my resume and really reflected on all the different projects and different experiences I had at the job so that I could like, broaden my view of what my skillset was because I think once I started trying to move away from the actual definition of what a SME is or what an LMS is or something like that, I really looked at what those skills were.
Within that thing that they [00:05:00] wanted, then I could see how my experience connected better. So for example, with a SME, just, subject matter expert, you might get thrown off at first. Oh, I have never worked with a SME, but if you really think about what that is, it's just basically consulting with someone who has expert knowledge on something.
And so if you think about in teaching have you consulted with someone who knows something that you don't know and have they helped you work on a learning experience in some way? And once I was able to zoom out and think of it like that, it helped me find where I could connect the dots and show that I did have that experience.
And even if I didn't have that exact title, I still had the knowledge.
Devlin Peck: So specifically you're talking about, this example of working with the subject matter expert, that in all these ID job postings, that's a necessary skill for the job. I guess the first reaction is like, I've never worked with a SME.
Then it's like, well, subject matter expert. I've worked with people who are knowledgeable about a topic and I kind of work with them to build a learning experience. So you're drawing on your past experiences and pulling these examples and [00:06:00] stories that would satisfy these different requirements on a job listing, for example.
Joanna Cappuccilli: Yeah, definitely. And I think it becomes this process of, I've been saying, this process of empowerment throughout and just owning where you're at with it and then owning, okay, I didn't necessarily in my last job say I worked with a SME, but I know I did because I exhibited the skills that are needed to work with SMEs, so reframing it and owning it within yourself first, I think really helps you articulate that better in the interviews. And also being honest with the knowledge gaps that you have to. For example, I hadn't worked very much with an LMS, the learning management system, and so I feel like I tried to show that I understood what that was at least and that I was willing to go that extra mile to learn that and that I did have the skills to actually go about learning that on the job.
So bridging the gap for them too and showing that you're eager to learn, and that you will.
Devlin Peck: Okay, nice. So it's, yeah, it's not necessarily lying or saying, oh, I know I do have three years of formal ID [00:07:00] experience. You can acknowledge that you've never held a formal ID job, or you've never had that title, but that you've still been doing a lot of the tasks that you would need to do in an ID role.
And you can help bridge the gaps this is what I was doing. This is super similar to what I would be doing here, helping the person that you're interviewing with, you're connecting those thoughts for them instead of saying, oh yeah, I was a teacher, you should know, I worked with SMEs, [yeah] you're telling those stories to build your own credibility and show, yeah, I've been doing things that can help me out here.
Joanna Cappuccilli: Yeah, and I think just even being willing to sort of reframe it too in your own mind in the sense of, if you did have a co- teacher that you consulted with to design a lesson plan, you can reframe that and say, I worked with a SME to design a learning experience. And so it's not lying because you did do that. It's just how you're using that terminology for them so that they can see where those dots are being connected as well.
Devlin Peck: Okay, nice.
So that seems like one of the early necessary steps in this process is learning the terminology. [00:08:00] What words do we use in the instructional design space to even refer to these things? Once I know what these words are and what they mean, then I can start trying to like think about my own experience in those terms.
That's kind of the process you followed for this?
Joanna Cappuccilli: Yeah, definitely learning the terminology, just finding some ID resources, watching stuff on YouTube or podcasts, but then also really diving into those job descriptions because that's where you're going to see the specific terminology that each company needs or wants because it might be, you might see it generally in like a general ID resource page. But if you're looking at how it's in that particular company, it might change. It might be a little bit different. And I have talked about this before too, but I can also provide an example. One of the companies I interviewed for was really focused on agile development.
On first look I don't know if I've done that. Can I even say that I've done that? And when I started reading about what that was, it was basically just being able to produce things rapidly and iterate quickly to get results. And I, when I thought about an [00:09:00] experience that I had, I was creating a digital workbook that, at the last second, the admin came back to me and said that they wanted me to change an entire chapter, and we had a tight deadline to do it.
And that's an example of creating something within that agile framework. And it's not necessarily in the tech space, but it's still relatable, and you can show that you're able to work under pressure and develop things quickly in that in a certain time frame.
Devlin Peck: Nice. Yeah, that's a good example.
Very good. So not just the general ID reframing. Oh, yeah, you know, learning experience, subject matter expert, so on and so forth. But also looking at these specific job postings or learning more about these specific companies or roles, and then using that as another source of the language that you can use to frame your experiences within.
That's good. And I can just imagine it's oh, do you have experience with agile? It's like, well, I didn't call it that when I was doing it, but this is the situation I was in, use that good old STAR method, which we'll get to, and I can see how that would make you seem super credible and qualified.
And it [00:10:00] would feel like you have experience doing this stuff. Even though on first glance, it's Oh, I'm not qualified for this. I haven't done that. That sounds so corporatey.
Joanna Cappuccilli: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. There's definitely a layer of the ID terms and then also the corporate terms too.
And once I started seeing more success in the interview processes is when I just started acknowledging that, yeah, I have done agile development, even though I didn't feel like I'd done that it really helped me carry out and show that I could do these things when I owned that within myself.
Devlin Peck: Yeah, good point. But okay, so you've, you worked on that reframing before ever like getting into the interviews at this. Again, cause yeah, you had like your early stage where you're like, apply to everything, see what I can get. And then you're like, that was phase one, towards the later phases, it's refocus on the portfolio, do all of this crap.
You're like, I'm going to do it right and make sure I get a really good role. So once you started going into the interviews for that part, you worked on this reframing before you've been going into it, right?
Joanna Cappuccilli: Yeah. I think for the most part I had [00:11:00] one interview that I didn't do well in and I hadn't really done much prep for it.
And then after that first interview, I realized this was going to be a much bigger undertaking to like reframe my experience and feel comfortable in the process. So yeah, then at that point is when I really started putting in all the hours and then I went into the interview experience much more prepared.
Devlin Peck: Nice. Okay. Yeah. And so you've probably experienced a range of like types of interviews, because I know like not all interviews are created differently and maybe some people here don't really know what to expect with the corporate ID interview process, so can you tell us what different types of interviews to expect?
Joanna Cappuccilli: Yeah, so I would say I saw probably six different types of interviews, if I really had to differentiate them. The first one was always, almost always was the HR interview, where I was talking with a recruiter and they were just trying to get the general background info about you and like, how I would fit with the position.
And then, I usually had a technical type [00:12:00] interview after that, which was getting into the more ID theory and like, design process, and how do you work with SMEs and things like that. And then sometimes, usually at most places, I had a behavioral interview as well. And that was really getting into like who you are and how you perform in that job role and how you would take on challenges or how you would help make impacts on a larger level.
And then there was the work sample, which was just creating that eLearning experience under a short amount of time within a deadline. And then I did have one leadership interview as well, where the interview was really geared towards understanding who I am as a leader.
And then. Yeah, the last one was usually a panel interview. So that was sometimes with people that, because as the instructional designer, you're not always in roles where you're working as a team. And so you might be, helping create experiences for customers that have no idea or who don't have any knowledge on learning design.
There was one company that I interviewed [00:13:00] for that was a financial. And they wanted me to do a panel interview with the financial advisors because those are the people I'd be working with. Yeah, there was quite a few different types of interviews that were really different than I'd ever experienced as a teacher.
That's where all that preparation came in because I felt like sometimes I didn't even know what I was going to be getting when I was moving through the rounds.
Devlin Peck: Right. Let's get into like the actual specific interview questions I know they might vary a little bit based on the stage you're at or the type of interview. But maybe we'll speak generally you need to give like caveats, feel free. Let's start with this. What about common interview questions? So we know these interview types. Did you see certain questions coming up at time and time again throughout this process?
Joanna Cappuccilli: Yeah, I think the main ones, which I probably referenced before, are the design process that's huge, they'll ask you, walk me through your design process, working with SMEs, and then usually a follow up to that is like, how do you handle difficult or unresponsive SMEs?[00:14:00]
So those were probably the main ones I saw very often. But I also got questions related to like, how have you made an impact with your learning experiences and then really wanting proof as to how you actually made an impact and you actually impacted the success of your learners and showing you have data to back that up.
So there was a lot of that. And then also got questions about how many courses I've created. And then defining, was it eLearning? Was it instructor led? Was it hybrid? And yeah, general questions too related to like, why this company? Basically who are you and why do you want this role and how can you do a good job?
Yeah, those were the ones I saw probably throughout the entire experience that were the most common ones. But I did get different ones at each interview. And a lot of them were usually behavioral based and wanting to know how I'd taken on certain challenges, how I'd led a project and how have I come up with solutions [00:15:00] with things that are unclear? And how do you handle ambiguity? A lot of questions around stuff like that.
Devlin Peck: Okay, good. I feel like there's so much here for us to dive into that would be helpful.
Maybe I'll try not to dive too deep into it, but I feel like we should spend a little bit more time on these questions because I think that's what a lot of the anxiety is around is, I think people go into interviews and it feels like a test.
It's like, I can't say the wrong thing or I'm gonna miss this chance. Yeah. So what was your sense let's say with the design process question. Yeah. What is your design process like? Did you get the sense that they're looking for a correct answer there? Or what is your take either from your experience or your research that a hiring manager is looking for when they ask that question?
Joanna Cappuccilli: So I don't think they're necessarily always looking for a correct answer. It's more like. I think how you deliver it and really walking through real examples. So my go to was that I always mentioned ADDIE from the, the first, just right away, I mentioned ADDIE and then I would take a real project and then walk them through the [00:16:00] steps that I used on that real project. So just giving a high level overview that I knew what that was, but then also getting deeper into how I'd actually applied it in my real life, in my real jobs that I had done. So I think yeah, not necessarily a right answer, but just being able to show them that you're capable of doing that.
And you have an idea of what your design process actually is.
Devlin Peck: Nice. Yeah, I think that seems like a really safe way to approach it. I mean, ADDIE, most people know what that is. It's like, oh yeah, ADDIE, you know something about instructional design. And then I guess other people can be like, I've asked people their design process and they're like lecturing me on what ADDIE is, which can frustrate them.
But your approach seems really, really good. It's like you mention ADDIE, you're familiar with it. You kind of know the full scope of like the ID process and then walking them through that in a real project. Yeah, I could see how that takes it to the next level. And it's just like a safe answer. If you're like, oh I like, use a performance consulting approach.
I'm going to kind of rework your like whole department. That's not exactly what they're looking for. It's probably going to be like, [00:17:00] uh, we just need someone to make eLearning. So that's a safe response. Yeah.
Joanna Cappuccilli: Yeah. And I think even within ADDIE too - Oh, sorry. There's a lot of room for being creative there too.
And if you do want to talk about these other really interesting parts of your design process, you can still include that as you're walking them through that. So I think that's, yeah, like you said, kind of a safe way to, to cover both grounds.
Devlin Peck: Nice. Yeah, that's smart. Good. Yeah, I'm glad we got into that.
And then working with SMEs, you kind of already gave us some hints there. It's like, if you've worked on any sort of learning experience before, which I think a lot of us have, when we realize, hey, I actually really like doing this. Oh, wow, there's a whole career where I can just do this full time? [Yeah] Did you consult someone to bring those learning experiences to life?
Joanna Cappuccilli: Yeah and I think that can be in any capacity too like actually, the examples I refer to quite often, because for anyone that doesn't know, I worked in an international setting for a long time. So I was working in South Korea and Taiwan and a lot of times I was consulting with [00:18:00] teachers there to develop these Mandarin and English programs so that was a language consultant, but it was still a SME because I wasn't an expert on teaching Mandarin.
So I think there's a lot of ways that you can go with it and it's just about really digging into your experience and trying to be creative with how you approach it.
Devlin Peck: And then what about that impact piece? That's a roadblock for some people because they're like, hey yeah, I don't know. I don't, no numbers come to mind. I haven't really been measuring metrics in my previous roles. [Yeah, definitely] how did you approach that? I know it's tricky for some people, measuring success.
Joanna Cappuccilli: Yeah, that was hard for me as well because I was also in the beginning really focused on numbers. And numbers are very important.
And if you have that, that's always great and better probably, but I think it's too like, trying to bring in other pieces of it as well. A lot of times I would refer back to like qualitative metrics or like anecdotal evidence. That might just be, I went and talked to the learners and heard about, and [00:19:00] maybe the learners are my students even, and just being able to talk to them and hear what feedback on that lesson plan or that learning experience.
And then being able to put that in a way that shows that you were listening to feedback and you were trying to apply that to the next learning experience that you designed. So I think there are ways that you can approach it, but don't shy away from that qualitative element as well. So that's how I filled the gap in that area when I didn't have numbers.
Devlin Peck: Okay, good. Yeah, that seems way more effective than like trying to make something up or like, Oh, the success rate improved. And it's Oh, how do you measure the success rate? Like, I've seen some people do that on their resume. It's like, oh, I need metrics. So I'll just make up a metric.
And a lot of the times, it's kind of obvious. It's like, what does this even mean?
It seems way safer to just talk about like the human impact, even if it's not in raw number terms than to try to like make stuff up or pull numbers out of thin air. So a good suggestion there as well.
Joanna Cappuccilli: And just to add to that too, like you can also always go back and say, [00:20:00] yeah, maybe I didn't quantify it this time, but next time this is how I would approach it.
So just showing that you're aware of... That maybe you could include more number based data, just to be aware of it is always good to show.
Devlin Peck: Yeah, that's smart. I could see how that would definitely make an impact in an interview as well. Good stuff there. And then... Just a couple other ones you mentioned, like why this company, why you. It's like, tell me why you're going to be a good fit here, like why are you a good fit for the role?
I guess that's some storytelling there like, what led you into ID, what makes you good for this company specifically?
Joanna Cappuccilli: Yeah, I think for that, this is probably what I rehearsed or practiced the most, was kind of like a two minute, little, I guess I would call it the interview thesis statement of just who I am and what I bring to the table.
And then every time I got on a call, that was the first thing I started with. And then I felt more comfortable then to get into the rest of the questions. So I usually try to think of like the top three qualities and I always tried [00:21:00] to match it to what I was seeing on the website or on, on LinkedIn or were in the job description and then really came in strong with those top three things.
So a lot of times I saw companies wanted someone who was customer obsessed, valued diversity, and had, good eLearning skills. So I would talk about, I understand eLearning development tools. I have a global mindset because of these reasons. And I'm passionate about helping people because of these reasons.
So that was that summary that I always came into every interview with.
Devlin Peck: Nice. Cool. Yeah. And that kind of sets the tone for like everything else, that's a cool way to think about it. Your interview thesis statement.
So when you tie it back into there, that would really make an impact. And then the last question you noted, how you respond to the interview questions?
I think the most common kind of framework for that, and I think what people are waiting for us to dive into, is STAR.
Joanna Cappuccilli: Yeah, STAR. Yeah, I was definitely relying on STAR. I think that really helped me structure my answers. And something that I often [00:22:00] left out in the interview process, usually prior to using STAR, having really done all this preparation, I would really shy away from the results side of things.
And I think that's really what I found, is that people really want to hear that. They really want to know, like okay, that's great that you did that, but can you prove that you did that? And what have you learned from it? And how would you apply that to other things? So I think if you can really focus on any of that part of STAR, my suggestion would be to really hone in on the R, hone in on results.
Devlin Peck: Should we take a step back and say what STAR is?
Joanna Cappuccilli: Oh, yes. Situation, Task, Action, Results.
Devlin Peck: Yeah. So it's just the way you structure your response.
So, I mean, I don't know if you wanna explain this.
I'm not gonna do this justice.
Joanna Cappuccilli: So for example, I was creating a training for teachers abroad to help them upskill to be better at digital learning. Yeah, that'd be the situation. And then the task was that, what was my [00:23:00] actual role in it?
I was actually the one designing the training and then also implementing it for the teachers. And then the action is like, what did I do to actually make that happen? Did I work with SMEs? Did I did I actually develop it? Or was I just doing the storyboarding part of it? What were those specific actions that I took?
And then the results was like, what is the impact? Did the teachers actually upskill at the end? And how can I prove that, that they did upskill? And what did I learn from that experience? And how did I make my learning experiences better after that? So I guess that's simple breakdown of what STAR would be.
Devlin Peck: Okay. And my reaction when I've heard that in the past, when I've been in these situations, it's hard to think of this on the fly. [Yeah] You probably have like prepared that example beforehand. It's probably safe to assume. [Yes] Maybe people will get a ton of practice like just pull stuff from their memory and can like immediately spin it into this format.
But obviously that takes some preparation. So[00:24:00] what was your approach to that? Did you write down 20 different stories in the STAR format from your experience? Or what did that look like?
Joanna Cappuccilli: Yeah, I did. I had a huge document. I don't even know how many pages, but I had STAR for every single story that I wanted to tell.
And then I literally would go through like, okay, what's the situation? What's the task? And then I did that for every story that I wanted to bring to the interview. Probably on the side of over preparation, but I think if you are someone that is nervous or wants to reframe your mindset or reframe your experience, I think that over preparation really goes a long way.
Devlin Peck: Nice, and for people who are trying to do this for themselves write these stories in the STAR format. You're sourcing the stories from the job tasks and responsibilities and stuff that you see like in the job listing?
Joanna Cappuccilli: Yeah, so some of that is gauging questions based on the job listing, but then also that's where I was going through my resume and reflecting on [00:25:00] all my experience and maybe not everyone has this situation, but I had a lot of different types of experience, and I had quite a few different jobs that I had worked at.
So it started from just trying to like find the theme of what my experience was. And then it became a really good reference point for finding those stories within those jobs. And then really breaking them down into STAR. But yeah, the job posting was helpful for anticipating what questions they might ask.
If they talked a lot about working with an LMS, then I was going to make sure that I had some kind of answer to respond to that.
Devlin Peck: Okay, cool. So not just the job listing, but also your resume, since that is the one page or possibly two page summary of your story. That makes a lot of sense.
Have stories ready to back up each bullet point you have on there. It sounds like. And then also, I guess just the common interview questions too. In your example of your ID process, it sounds like you're using a bit of STAR to respond to that too, where you kind of walk us through how you used it.
Joanna Cappuccilli: Yeah. And I think I like what someone said in the chat too, about like having the narrative of yourself, because I [00:26:00] think that's essentially what it is. You've got to write your own story for the interview experience.
Devlin Peck: Yeah, and you seem to have a really good understanding of that.
The thesis of your interview, you're talking about the theme of your experience because that's what you're really doing. You're telling a story and hopefully that story makes you look like a very competent and driven person who's going to succeed in this role and provide value to this company.
So if you can align your story with what they're looking for. It seems like you've got the job. You've got the offer.
Joanna Cappuccilli: I think I found that tactic evolved for me as I went through the process and I realized that it was really really important.
And I got, actually got feedback from a hiring manager that said, you seem very self reflective and really aware of yourself and we value that. So I think hiring managers do value someone that, it sounds cliche, but like knows themselves, so I think that's important to tell your story.
Devlin Peck: Yeah, and from what we're hearing, it's not just from, oh like, I love myself. So I know myself. No, it took hours and hours [00:27:00] of like detailed reflection on my experiences and why I am a good fit for this field in these roles.
Joanna Cappuccilli: Yeah, pages and pages.
Devlin Peck: Pages and pages, nice. Okay, so I think we did a lot of justice to how to respond to questions and what types of questions to expect. But what about when it comes time for you to ask questions? I know that's always a piece of this where people might not be sure what to do.
Did you have like canned questions that you asked every time? Or was it based on the feel of the interview or the specific role?
Joanna Cappuccilli: Yeah, I think so. Yeah, I usually had generic questions that I asked every time usually was like, what were some of the upcoming projects that I would be expected to join or, help with when I join?
A big question that I asked a lot, which I found hiring managers liked as well was what should I learn before I start? Because it also showed that I was interested in learning before I started the job and that I was really committed to wanting to know more about what I had to do.
Also asked what was the most challenging [00:28:00] part? What's something you've loved about working at this company? And asking more like, I guess not personal questions, but more just what's your favorite thing about working here? And trying to bring in that conversational element.
It can help you feel relaxed, help them feel relaxed and connecting over things that you like about the job. I also asked what part of the design process would I be doing when I was at the job? Cause you're not necessarily always doing the whole thing.
You might just be developing the content, or maybe you're just writing the storyboard, or maybe you're doing all of it. So that was an important question that I tried to ask every time too.
Devlin Peck: Good ones. Okay. Yeah, I could see that would show you have initiative.
If you're asking questions based on things that came up in the conversation, shows those active listening skills and that you're actually invested. Yeah, that question is obviously revealing what part of the design process am I in, especially for finding out if the role is right for you.
I know some people, they only want to do a specific piece or they want to make sure they do some analysis. So that would be a very revealing question for [00:29:00] sure. And the upcoming projects one, I hadn't heard that one before, but that makes a lot of sense. It's oh, what am I going to be working on first?
What am I going to be able to dive into when I get started?
Joanna Cappuccilli: Yeah Super excited. What work am I going to do?
Devlin Peck: Yeah, that's a good one.
Joanna Cappuccilli: And the other one too, was to show that you've done research on the company.
So like there was one example where I found a blog from an eLearning developer at the company about a project they'd recently done. It was a passion project and they were helping give free eLearning for researchers or something. So once I brought that up and we connected over making education more accessible and things like that,
so if you can find those connections and ask that at the end, it could be really helpful.
Devlin Peck: Very cool. And I guess we didn't spend much time discussing that, but yeah, what was that research process like for a company? Yeah, we have the job listing, but it doesn't sound like you stopped there if you're finding specific blogs written by employees at the company.
What was your research process like when you found a role you were really excited about?
Joanna Cappuccilli: Yeah, so I usually started looking at the company. There's the generic company website, [00:30:00] tried to dive into every piece of the company, not necessarily just the eLearning or learning development team.
And then I would, write down keywords or phrases that I saw, and then I would get deeper and look at the learning development team. And then I would try to find them on LinkedIn if I could, and look at the things they were posting about, look at their job responsibilities that they were saying were their responsibilities at that job. And then sometimes I found that they would post news articles or, that's where I found they posted a blog about something they wrote. And yeah, and then listening to podcasts. I know when I interviewed with AWS, I was listening to like the AWS podcast and AWS morning brief.
And then even going a step further and listening to different YouTube videos about the company. Like I found an AWS developer that was talking about different tech concepts that I would listen to once in a while. So just really trying to get immersed in the company and every aspect and every way possible.
Devlin Peck: Very cool. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. That's smart. [00:31:00] Not just looking up new stories on Google, but just seeing what the employees who are working in similar capacities to what you would be doing, what are they posting on LinkedIn? How do they define their responsibilities in their role?
Because I could see how that could be more insightful, even than a job posting, if the job posting is just copy and pasted from the other job postings. So that's smart. How do the people who are doing the work talk about what they're doing? Yeah.
Okay, and then this is the last prepared question I have for you, but do you have any other tips for us to succeed on interview day specifically? So we've done all this research, all this prep, but now we have our interview, tomorrow afternoon. What should we do? How do we prepare for that and make sure we like don't forget everything we had been researching?
Joanna Cappuccilli: That's definitely a good question. I always had the shorthand version of t hings. So I had a document for every company and then I would make a shorthand version of that document and then usually I would print that off or maybe I would take notes on paper somewhere and then highlight the keywords.
So if I knew at this particular company, I wanted to focus on my agile development or change [00:32:00] management or whatever that was based on what I read, or maybe this company was really about customer obsession. So then I would have keywords that I would highlight for each company that I would like, make sure I referred back to that, so that I didn't forget to mention that.
And then I usually had a list of the top experiences or projects that I'd worked on that I wanted to mention. So that digital workbook example that I just gave earlier, that was usually on the shorthand version of my 'on the day' kind of preparation. So I had these just key experiences that I would have available to me in some paper format so that I could see it quickly and reference it.
Devlin Peck: And I see you designed your own performance support for the interview. You're like, I have this on hand. I know I'm not alone here. I have my little cheat sheets around.
Joanna Cappuccilli: That's a good way to say it. Yeah, performance support. That's basically it.
Devlin Peck: Yeah, it's definitely what you're doing.
So that's cool. So I'm guessing once you did all this, when you're going into interviews... Probably felt a little bit different than when you're going into interview one.
Joanna Cappuccilli: Yes, yeah, it was [00:33:00] definitely much different at that point. I still got nervous every time but I think just having, yeah, that performance support there was really helpful.
It'll refer back to it. And oh, and then something I did too, usually after each interview, even if I didn't know if I was going to get a second one, I usually took notes. So like, I spoke to this person. I remember that they talked about this so that if I did get called back to a second interview, I could go back and look at that, how, have a reminder of how that first interview went too.
Devlin Peck: Yeah, that makes sense. That's smart. Cool. So lots of note taking, lots of keeping everything in one place. And then turn that into performance support. Thanks for diving into all this with us, and I know a handful of you here are in the bootcamp, and yeah, we're turning this into its own course about acing the interview, and we're going to have a mock interview included and stuff like that, so it's going to be very cool, but hopefully this session will be enough to give a lot of you what you need to make the difference in these interviews. We have a question from Lisa. If your portfolio is still a work in [00:34:00] progress, do you think it's okay to apply for ID positions or is it best to hold off?
Joanna Cappuccilli: Yeah that's something I remember. I think I talked with you about Devlin a bit too, what stage should you start applying? And I think once I had at least one solid quality project up on my website, I started getting interviews.
I think once I added more, I think I probably got more responses, but I would say at least if you have that one quality project that showcases that you can do the design process from beginning to end, that you'd probably be in a pretty good position, in my opinion, to start applying.
Devlin Peck: Yeah, it's tough, by the way, what you mean by work in progress. If like, the quality is very high, but the quantity is pretty low, that's a really good spot to be applying from. But if it's in a very drafty kind of format, and maybe the quality control isn't very high, one, we don't want the portfolio to be like working against you, of course. So I don't know what state your portfolio is in, but if the projects are thrown together and not very refined, it may not be [00:35:00] doing much for you, and it may be showing that you don't have a good attention to detail, and we obviously don't want that to happen.
Joanna Cappuccilli: Yeah. True. You don't want it to work against you.
Devlin Peck: I guess as far as the sequence, applying without a higher quality portfolio, I equate it to playing the lottery especially because as you can tell from this conversation, like it takes a lot of work to go through this application process.
So it's more effective to have the portfolio in place that already demonstrates your skills and like going into the interview people already can see you can do the job to some degree. It makes the next pieces a bit easier. The portfolio like won't be holding you back, it'll only be helping you.
So as far as the sequence, yeah, it generally is a good investment of your time to polish your portfolio site before going through the interview and application process.
Joanna Cappuccilli: Yeah, I think the portfolio is really important. And you said, quality is always better than quantity, I think.
Devlin Peck: Okay good. Good question, Lisa. Thank you for that. We have a question from Nen. Do you have any tips or suggestions on [00:36:00] negotiating salaries and benefits? That's a good question, especially for new IDs.
Joanna Cappuccilli: Yeah, that was something I faced in the beginning a lot too. And I think I probably mentioned this in the last one, but in the beginning, I was really ready to just take whatever came my way because I was super ready to have a job at that point.
But I think yeah, I think that's where just knowing your worth and knowing the market and knowing what your skillset should get you and what other people are getting paid in those positions. That's really important. And just, yeah, not being afraid to settle. Like, you know, you don't have to settle.
If you do have all those skills and you have that expertise and you do go through the process, you don't have to settle. Yeah.
Devlin Peck: So what was that like for you going through this process? You had multiple offers basically offered to you. Probably made it easier to negotiate or be in a position to like, accept the most compelling offer. If you just have one person making you that offer, I guess they have a little bit less leverage than if you had a couple of other companies who were trying to get you on [00:37:00] board as well.
Joanna Cappuccilli: Yeah. And that's definitely the piece where it can get challenging. And I think that's where I guess if you are going to strategize your interviews, in my opinion, I would say, try to apply for them all at once so that you can move through the process in the same stage or at the same rate.
Because then when you do get to the offer stage, you'll have multiple offers rather than applying, months prior and then maybe six months later or whatever. So going through the process at the same time can be really helpful. And also trying to like, don't be afraid to schedule the interviews when it works best for you.
Like, the final round of one of the companies, they wanted to do it at a certain time, but I really tried to keep pushing so that it matched within the same week of one of the other companies that I had the final round at. So you can strategize in those ways, I think.
Devlin Peck: Yeah, that's a good suggestion because companies know people have other options to them, and they will try to use tactics to get you to commit as soon as possible. I've seen that happen a lot. It's like, we need to know within two days if you accept it or not. It's these high pressure [00:38:00] kind of tactics.
Obviously, if you don't have any other offers, you may feel you need to do that. But, there are a few other places you're interviewing with, and you're, like, a top choice for them, too, or one of the top choices, it's kind of like, well yeah, maybe I have to give up this company who's trying to pressure me into this and I'm sure I'll get, some good offers from these other ones.
So it is a tough, it is tough. There is a degree of risk. Obviously, the longer you hold out and a lot of people I work with, it is like you can earn more, but there is going to be a little bit more uncertainty in it. It may be holding out another month or so to accept an offer.
So sometimes people are more than happy to accept that first good offer that they are happy with that comes their way, even before letting the other interviews get resolved or lending offers. And that happens a lot. They accept the offer and then a week or two later, another offer comes in and it's like, oh, wait, no.
I already accepted a role. Sorry. But I would suggest if you're in that position with the other companies know, hey I'm thinking about accepting this offer. Were you planning on making me an offer here? Like, trying to communicate with the other companies. But we could probably do a whole [00:39:00] session on negotiation as well.
Joanna Cappuccilli: Yeah, something to learn for sure. It's not something that came naturally for me.
Devlin Peck: I think it is to just acknowledging when you are out of work. And it's like, yeah, I'm just trying to transition into the field. I do want to get my foot in the door. I think generally people are a lot more comfortable accepting the first good offer that comes their way because they don't want to have to worry about, oh, am I going to run out of savings or...? There is a bit more pressure to land that first good role than to hold out for getting my dream conditions met. So it's easier to do that once you're already comfortably in the field and you have some real solid formal experience.
Good question. [Absolutely] We have a question from Caitlin. Do you have any tips about exploring the company culture or making sure that the company is a good fit for you?
Joanna Cappuccilli: Yeah. So exploring the company culture, I think that's where all that research came into play. So I think if you're doing all that research ahead of time about the company, you're going to learn a lot of things about the culture [00:40:00] in that way, like what you're seeing on online and what the employees are posting.
But I think also just asking those questions in the interview, like not being afraid to ask what the company culture is and trying to see if it does match your values. And that one example I gave about finding that passion project from one of the employees at a certain company and realizing that they really cared about accessible education.
By finding that ahead of time, I was able to use that as a starting point to open a discussion about those types of values that the company held. So I think yeah, that kind of research will help guide the discussion and it sheds light on what they care about and what the culture is like.
Devlin Peck: True, yeah, the question was about asking about company culture, but I got the sense you can pick up a lot from the research you're doing, from what you're seeing from the people who work there. What are they talking about? What are they sharing? And I know I've seen comment suggestions, there's like the standard, like the Glassdoor, like the employee review kind of sites with the caveat that there are maybe [00:41:00] more unhappy people commenting than happy people, [yeah, true] but there are probably a lot of windows into the company culture. But I imagine talking to people who are in the role could be quite effective. But again, sometimes within a company, it does vary tremendously from team to team.
Joanna Cappuccilli: Yeah, that's the thing. Yeah, talking to as many people as you can, but then knowing that trying to ask when you actually are in that interview and trying to bring it up in a way that sheds light on what that culture is I think, is good.
Devlin Peck: And even some of the questions you mentioned earlier about like what to ask at the end of an interview, like some of those can shed light on things too.
Like the projects you'll be working on, where in like the ID process you'll be spending most of your time, [yeah] some of those could be revealing as well.
Joanna Cappuccilli: Another good one too is just how is the learning team supported? How does the company feel about learning and development and how do they support you in that?
That's what can also be revealing [00:42:00] about the culture around your particular team as well.
Devlin Peck: Okay, let's move on to the next question. We have a question from Aressa. How do you make a new entry level portfolio and not look so empty and sad? You can't always post full examples from company projects or you may not have many being new to the field.
I think we maybe touched on that a little bit. But yeah, the quality over quantity piece is very important. Like, most of the people that I work with or that I see landing like really great roles like this, they have between one and three projects on their portfolio. How many do you have on your portfolio?
Like two, I think, right? Or do you have a third?
Joanna Cappuccilli: I only have two. And having those process write ups too, and just talking about what that experience was like and what that experience of creating the project was like. So I think there's ways to make it not seem so empty and sad, but I think just yeah, that's where it goes back to quality because I think if you do have a really quality project that's using different types ofeLearning development tools, that's going to really come through to the hiring managers.
Devlin Peck: Yeah and that [00:43:00] piece is important too, not just like the quality but a quality project that shows off the in demand skills. If it's a really good quality project but it's for like some teaching project, like a PowerPoint maybe, something like not eLearning, which is like where the market is heavily moving right now.
It's still like the self-paced eLearning, at least in the corporate side. If you're not showing off that skill set, it might be like the most beautiful projects and that probably honestly would help you land a role if people could see your potential. But yeah, gotta show off the in demand skills and show off the attention to detail and all that as well.
You don't need a ton. Honestly, with one project, many people land really good remote corporate ID roles with a single flagship project that kind of checks all the boxes.
Joanna Cappuccilli: Yeah, and that one project that it took about probably one to two months. I mean, I was also learning a lot of the tools, but that alone shows you like how much time and effort it can go into that can be put into,
there's just one project. And that really shows that you did spend time to understand the process and make sure it's quality. [00:44:00]
Devlin Peck: Yeah and I guess that gives you a good kind of jumping off point for some of these behavioral interview questions, because, you know, you have at least one example of that. You can actually show people, and you spent a lot of time working through this.
Good question there. Next question on the list is from Hazel and, it's do you have any specific advice or anecdotes about initial phone screenings? Hazel has their first today and they're not sure what to expect.
Joanna Cappuccilli: Okay. Oh, phone screening. So probably with the hiring manager or is it with the recruiter?
Because I think sometimes that can be different. But I know in general, I think for me in the beginning, I thought phone screen maybe wasn't Something I should be too nervous about at least but when I went into it, I realized that they do, even if it is the recruiter or the hiring manager, they sometimes really are asking those challenging types of behavioral questions or like what your experience is like and how it connects to instructional design.
So don't underestimate the amount of detail that they might look for, even in the phone screen. I think that'd be [00:45:00] my biggest piece of
advice.
Devlin Peck: All right. We have a few questions about the different types of interviews and how to navigate them. Any tips for behavioral interviews?
I think that's where we dove into the STAR piece. But anything that maybe we haven't mentioned about the behavioral interviews that you think would be helpful for people to know?
Joanna Cappuccilli: I think with the behavioral interviews, that's where I would say do the most anticipation or trying to guess what those questions are going to be, because I got a lot of questions about ambiguity and just how do you handle unclear situations, or how can you be a leader in this type of situation or just those questions that you may not necessarily be prepared for and might throw you off because it is really behavioral based and not necessarily connected to instructional design or you may not see the clear connection to it right away.
So I think just really trying to do your research there and think of as many examples as you possibly can.
Devlin Peck: Okay, good. Because yeah, that's scary, like getting a question like that and having to like, come [00:46:00] up with a response on the fly. Oh yeah, that's anxiety inducing. But I can see if you've reviewed your like, 20 stories, it's like well, this one goes into leadership qualities.
So let me pull this one out of the hat.
Joanna Cappuccilli: That's a good point. Because you might have a story that you put in this kind of bucket, but then you realize, oh, actually I could, mix and match for what I need in that moment.
Devlin Peck: There you go. Cool. Yeah, you're like studying the story of yourself, quizzing yourself.
Joanna Cappuccilli: Yeah, that's a good way to say it.
Devlin Peck: But good stuff. And I guess maybe we'll we have time for one final question and maybe a quick response, but Tiffany's curious about the practice assignments, the assignments you have to complete during the interview process.
Do you have any quick recommendations about like what people may be looking for in an assignment like that?
Joanna Cappuccilli: I think if you've done the preparation and have built projects prior to that it's kind of similar. Basically like you're just have to be able to put it into action, and then show that you can [00:47:00] do it under a certain amount of time, a certain deadline.
So I think that's where it's not necessarily what you're creating all the time. I think it's more like, can you do it quickly and can it still be quality? And I remember even they often would tell me like, we're not super focused on the content. We're more so focused on, is it quality and can you do it quickly?
So I think those are the top things.
Devlin Peck: That's very cool. Good stuff. Yeah. The attention to detail is what I always suggest to people. And the types of practice assignments can vary a ton, but I could probably do a whole session on those too. [Yeah, sure] But I think we covered a lot of ground here.
And yeah, thanks Joanna for making the time, and we'll talk to you soon, Joanna.
Joanna Cappuccilli: Thank you.
Devlin Peck: Thank you.