Welcome to the Dev Launch podcast, bringing you insights from industry experts on how to grow the digital agency you love. Today's episode features Jordan Kostrinsky calling in all the way from Tel Aviv, Israel. where he's building bridges between the Israeli and U.S. entrepreneurial communities.
From launching the Colorado Israel Chamber of Commerce to navigating cultural nuances in international business, Jordan shares valuable insights for agency owners looking to expand into new markets. If you're thinking about growing globally, You're not going to want to miss this episode. Let's dive in. Well, Jordan, thank you so much for hopping on the show. I know you're a busy man. You've got things going on.
In fact, even right now, you've got some unique things going on. Mind telling us where in the world you're calling in from? Yeah, sure. So I'm calling in right now from Tel Aviv, Israel. um sitting here 9 30 at night you know a little bit different than the the time zone where you're at but uh but doing some important things also managing to push forward my business and other initiatives that I'm that I'm working on. So I'm happy. Well, I, I appreciate the work that you're doing.
Not only from a marketing standpoint, but also the work that you're doing there in Israel. Very, very important work. And it's kind of an interesting dynamic where you are both building a business. and being a beacon for entrepreneurship in that region. One of the things you and I had talked about before when we were chatting is there's a connection that you're making between the States and Israel's entrepreneurial community. Mind unpacking that a little bit more? What's that about?
Yeah, so actually this year, funnily enough, I started an initiative. So beyond my agency that I run, I started an initiative called the Colorado Israel Chamber of Commerce. And the whole goal... of the initiative comes from kind of my own background here in Israel, where I actually was helping companies.
go to the North American market or go to, we can say, English speaking markets and kind of, you know, get their messaging out there, get their products out there, whatever. And my goal was, you know, I'm from Colorado originally. Colorado and Israel are two very, you know, dear homes of mine, I guess you can say. And I was like, I want to see what's going on. I want to see how I can connect both ecosystems because I've always felt that there's kind of natural partners.
And so... i was looking into it i found that there was no real chamber of commerce um i looked into it i did my research due diligence you know as anyone who's in the business you know field you know you go deep go into research start making sure hey no one's doing this
I started making some inroads. And so slowly but surely, I managed to get a team behind me, including my business partner, two people in Colorado, one of them being my co-founder there. And so far, we've also been able to add some board members.
Our goal really is to connect between both Colorado and Israel to bring... entrepreneurs from Israel to Colorado to bring Colorado entrepreneurs and Colorado diplomats and policymakers to Israel to also learn from the innovation here and for both of them to really learn from each other.
And I think it's really exciting. And it's kind of like, you know, just like that added benefit of being able to work with companies to get them to America already, but to now to actually do it specifically for my home state and for my home right now. Hmm. That's so cool. I mean, one of the things you and I talked about, too, is that it seems like a pretty good connection to make because I know Colorado is there's.
a pretty heavy like military uh presence that's in colorado definitely significant air force base there And then also Israel is probably one of the world's leading forces in terms of just its military technology and stuff. Do you find that the majority of kind of that connection that you've that you're making is in the.
tech and the defense space or do you find other businesses as well benefiting from this chamber of commerce yeah it's interesting that you mentioned that because it's kind of it's it's funny i would say definitely we're having a focus on tech overall right whatever let's say You know, innovation, startups, that's definitely a primary. But, you know, you'd be surprised. Like we were, for example, approached by an Israeli winery that's interested in selling its wine.
in colorado and doing distribution in colorado and actually in the larger mountain west and you know that's an amazing thing i you know of course we're working trying to find ways in which to actually make that a reality and so that's actually you know very exciting because it kind of shows that
you know yes while israel is this hub of innovation and startup nation and obviously defense tech is a huge thing that there's actually a lot of other businesses here that are just as interested as getting to colorado as let's say the big guys the big tech players interesting yeah i wouldn't necessarily think about um you know a winery of all places first of all
I wouldn't think about Israel as a place where you would have a winery. But second of all, just the fact that that connection could be facilitated back to Colorado. Like, I don't know, maybe Colorado is a big importer of wine. I just, I don't know.
why even find it interesting that he even wants like the the guy who runs the winery that he even wants to go to colorado like a lot of israelis you know one of the things that's funny right now is that you know for me that one of the challenges in this whole initiative is branding colorado for israel so actually explaining you know to israelis
Hey, listen, outside of New York, Miami, and like San Francisco and LA, there actually exists an America that you don't necessarily know about. And it's actually most of America. And there are other opportunities there. There are other ecosystems there that are just as strong and even stronger in certain respects, you know, to some of these big guys. For example, like a lot of people don't know, Colorado has a huge space and aerospace presence.
Something that people are not really that aware of. A lot of people just think it's like Florida, California. No, Colorado has a huge presence, has a huge industry there. um the governor's trying to make it the next kind of boston for bioscience and biomedical you know there's a lot of a lot of different types of innovations going on there not to mention climate tech and water technologies so a lot of things are going on
A lot of, you know, a lot of industry, a lot of innovation and Israelis need to be aware of it because there's a lot of that stuff going on here, too, and they can benefit. So this connection between Israel and Colorado.
um you'd mentioned that it's also a bit of a branding exercise for colorado you mind unpacking that a little bit more i'm kind of curious what you mean yeah like basically colorado i don't think in the psyche of the israeli public and the israeli business community i don't think it's really there it's not really an uh a player right like just like how you might say for example like you know i don't know like some
I'm thinking of some random country, but now I can't. I don't want to say it because it'd just be mean. But like, you know, like some random country. Right. You know, and you don't you don't necessarily think of the market there. You don't think what's going on there. You don't think it's going to be worthwhile for you. But maybe it is. Maybe there is actually an opportunity there. And, you know, listen, Israeli tech.
uh you know tech founders and startups are often trying to go to the us that's like their main main goal is to get their product there to grow and you see it all the time you know from gong to lemonade to whatever so they're they're always going there um and really like the option here is to now kind of say to them, listen, go and do your research, but come to Colorado, like see what we can offer you too, right? You can go to New York.
You can go to Miami, you can go to LA, San Francisco, but you're going to be a small fish in a big pond. You can go to Colorado where you can be even like a medium sized fish in a big pond or a small pond or whatever. You know, it's not even so much big pond, small lake, but you're there.
And you have the opportunity to tap into a whole other ecosystem and be aware of a certain way of work-life balance, let's say logistics, whatever. You can tap into really a different type of innovation ecosystem, which I think is... unparalleled and there's all these other benefits that can come with it of course living in colorado is nice uh you know you have a big airport there that's a major center
You have the ability to connect with Latin America, right? Colorado is very much on the time zone with a lot of major Latin American cities, Mexico City, for example, being one of them. So it's... it it kind of lends itself to a whole nother way of approaching a u.s market entry and so that's kind of what i mean when i say colorado has to be branded in the mind of israelis as a new place as a new destination it's like
They don't know about it. It's kind of a secret that people aren't aware of. You know what I mean? And we have to get them to become more aware of it. Of course, there are some people who know about it and whatever, but the vast majority.
I'll tell you, having lived here now eight years, every time people are like, where are you from? I'm like, Colorado. They're like, oh, OK. Or where is that? You know, they don't know. And they'll be like, OK, I don't know anything. You know what I mean? Some of them maybe know the only thing sometimes I get. is they know skiing and they know the weed so it's you know it's that's basically it right you know those are two things i get it depending on the crowd right
Interesting. And then, and so I guess what, what precipitated, I mean, obviously there's, there's the background in the sense that, you know, you grew up in Colorado and now you were living in Israel. So there's a connection just naturally that way, but like what, what precipitated the.
you know, the creation of this chamber of commerce and making that connection for Israeli founders back to Colorado and vice versa. Yeah, I mean, you know, I think it really comes from just kind of a passion for both places. You know, I... love colorado i'm from there you know i live there uh right now most of my life i go back there frequently um you know i even like have other businesses based there and you know that to me it's still my home
in some capacity. And in Israel right now, I'm living here and it's also my home. And so for me, it was really kind of like more of a passion in that sense to say, I want to connect these two. And of course, I have these abilities to do this because I'm doing it already.
you know, for my business, you know, connecting players, doing business development, doing marketing. So it was kind of that's where I say it's kind of like a natural thing. It was like a natural evolution. But the passion was obviously because.
These are my homes, you know, and I care. Someone actually, you know, they asked me the other day, they were like, why Colorado of all places? Like you could do any other, any other state. And I was like, yeah, but I don't care about any other state, you know? So. That's true. you know colorado better than than any of these other states as well exactly exactly and it's you know it's i want to see it thrive i want to see it uh do well you know it's uh
It's a very unique place. You've been, right? Or have you never been? Okay. First time going out to Colorado, I was like, oh, this is incredible. So I'm in Minnesota. I'm in, you know. we we don't really have anything uh significant except for our lakes that are geographic formations so i get out there and i'm like mountains yeah yeah amazing yeah yeah exactly yeah
So I always like to say that my joke is when I'm picking up people from the airport in Colorado at DIA, we'll drive back and I'll be like, and look at the mountains. You know what I mean? Because that's the tour guide I gotta be.
you've got it. You got to lean into that. Well, I want to pull on a thread here and you know what? I'm going to just totally throw out the show notes and we're just going to go on this thread because I think it's unique and unique to your experience, but also unique to your, um, expertise, which is for agencies or for businesses that are outside of the US. that want to tap into the U.S. market. Your background is the marketing perspective and kind of the go-to-market strategy.
um what what are some of like the pretty recurrent themes that you like to talk to your founders about to be successful in entering the u.s market yeah so it's really important i think to differentiate also kind of between the industries a little bit too between like b2b and b2c right because um different founders who are doing you know different solutions different products for different audiences obviously that
that has a lot to be said there right you know because for example um certain regulation or compliance issues might be different between the the industries and so that's always something that first of all you know i always kind of look at but
When I look at, I think, you know, if you're going to ask me, like the general picture of what I would tell a founder, you know, and kind of what I hear as being kind of the needed qualities. Well, first, I think a lot of people have a misunderstanding of what.
entering the u.s market is um and i think it's often because you know if you're not familiar with america you haven't been there you can kind of think of it as like you know oh i'm entering america right like it's all gonna work out but like america is huge America is massive. We know it better than anyone. It's a massive place with a lot of diversity, a lot of very unique situations going on as well.
And a lot of unique markets and with unique market needs. And also, lest they forget that we're also like America, right? So we like American things like and that's important. And so. I think when you talk a lot to founders who are trying to understand the market entry aspect, it's kind of convincing them that listen, coming to America requires a strategy, requires targeting your locale, finding that entry point, doing it.
like gradually not as a kind of uh you know darts at the dartboard type of thing and really testing the waters so that you make sure not only you're not wasting a lot of resources and doing it effectively, but that you're also not burning yourself in the process because Lord knows in America, you burn yourself once you're, you're done. I mean, like it can really come back to bite you, especially if you're a foreign.
let's call it entity trying to do business in america so that is one thing i always try to stress and i try to always make sure that founders understand and startups understand that um because it's important and honestly the ones that have been successful working with us and that we've been successful with have understood that uh principle and that they've understood kind of like
okay, we are here to figure out the market. We're here to test it. We're here to gradually make our way in. And once we make our way in, then, you know, the sky's the limit. Yeah. And the gradual entry I think is, is such a good point to make. Cause I'm even just thinking to myself, you know,
On a map, you'd look at Colorado, you look at Minnesota, you're like, man, they're not that far away from each other. But I do think even culturally, business culture wise, penetrating the Minnesota market or the Midwest market. Honestly, it does look a lot different even then. colorado or some more western states and so i think that's a it's a really good point to make so when you're advising founders especially israeli founders in terms of entering the u.s market it sounds like one of the your
Biggest piece of advice is start with a specific locale rather than trying to make a big splash in the entirety of the United States. Right. Or start with like a, you know, a point like don't. don't just go in and say i'm going like right now for example in israel i think you know just using my my residence as an example right it's it's not a huge country right we have nine million people
It's, you know, the size of New Jersey, right? It's not a big geographic area as well. And it's kind of, you know, it's located in one place, right? It's not spread out or anything like that. It's really where it is.
i want to go to uh israel i want my product to get there in a certain sense right it's easy obviously you have to penetrate the market whatever we're not going to get into that those specifics but it's easy to say i'm going to go to israel and i'm going to just do uh uh you know a marketing campaign there It's easier because your options of, say, let's say major urban areas to get a major audience is smaller.
You know, a lot of people live in the center. They live in even specific cities like Tel Aviv or Jerusalem. Obviously, there are some other bigger cities, but even then they're not as notable. And if you still wanted to, again, you're talking about maybe two cities, three cities, four cities, something like that.
That's where you could get a major mass. In America, you can go just about anywhere and get sometimes major masses. But you don't know if you're answering their solution. You don't know if it's going to work for them. You don't know if they're interested. You don't also know if your messaging is actually right.
at the moment to get in there and actually create that difference and so to just say okay i'm going to go for the eastern seaboard right let's call it like that right that's ludicrous or to say i'm going for america and just putting money on a google campaign and saying like i'm gonna just go for rent it's ludicrous
Why don't you pick a location that based on market research or based on some understanding of the market or other opportunities that are there, you say, okay, I'm going to focus, let's just say on the New York area, maybe even New York tri-state, maybe just New York city. maybe even just Manhattan and see you know how to really target my messaging there now obviously you know I'm talking maybe about digital ads but this can be
for anything, you can support it with organic social media, you can support it with guerrilla marketing, you can support it with traditional media and PR. So It's not impossible to do these types of very targeted market entries. But of course, you have to do it in the right way and with the right understanding. And I think a lot of people just get very impatient and they don't want to do that. So it's sometimes convincing them, hey, listen.
Do it the right way. Do it slowly. Get yourself to that point. For example, there are times we get approached sometimes by companies that they want to go yesterday to America and you talk to them. Their website is in broken English. They don't even have a really strong LinkedIn presence or anything at all. Their social media is below par.
What do you want me to do for you? You know exactly like how let's get you to that point So you're ready to get to America. I think these are things that you know, you always have to kind of recognize Wow. So you're saying there's even probably some pre-work to be done before you want to even try to broach the subject of we're going to penetrate the American market. A hundred percent. And I think that's something that...
Again, a lot of founders probably all over the world. I see it specifically in my area in Israel, but I see it also when I've worked with, let's say, Italian founders or Slovenian founders or Indian founders or whatever, the different countries that we've worked over the years.
people don't always understand the the legwork it takes to get into a market like america it's just a lot more complicated you know in the context that It's very easy once you've made your headway to start growing from there, but you have to gain trust. and to do that you have to come off professional and in a sense american because americans like to feel that they're dealing with someone who gets them so you know if you come in there with
broken English, weird colors that don't mean anything to them, hard to pronounce name, no social media presence. So you look like a scam and then weird and aggressive ads. Okay, great. Like, what do you want me to do for you? Like, you know, what do you even what are you explaining? What do you think is going to happen?
And it doesn't matter. It's not anything that, you know, yeah, of course you put out that one thing. Maybe you do something unique. Sure. Of course there's plenty of outliers, but that's not the general rule. Yeah. I mean, so there's a lot of cultural transition and translation that needs to take place. But one thing I would imagine you're probably doing a lot of work with. product oriented businesses, right? Or do you also do service oriented businesses as well?
Less so, I would say. I have worked with them in the past, but right now when I think to it, most of my clients are in product or nonprofits, actually. Yeah, okay, that makes sense. So I guess if you can... venture a guess, or just with your extensive experience with more product oriented businesses, do you think the strategy in entering the US market or, you know, trying to be a
a company that's not located in the U S but selling into the U S do you think the strategy looks a lot different for a product oriented business versus a service business? Or do you feel like it doesn't matter if your service or product, the entry into the U S. still like requires the same kind of core competencies yeah it's actually it's it's interesting i think it still requires the core competency i'll tell you why because actually while i
don't necessarily work with tons of service agencies in getting themselves to America. I actually work with, you know, like first of all i work with my own business getting myself to america though we do have an american branch but at the same time like i've worked with american service companies that are trying to figure out how to work with also uh foreign service companies as well
um which is an interesting topic in its own right but one thing that i think is that you have to still come off american to work with service like american service companies or to work with American companies in general. So, you know, one of the things I think that when you're kind of an expat, you know, agency owner, let's call it, that can be very beneficial is you understand the American market.
You actually understand Americans and you have the ability to, you know, if you're good at your job, obviously to make inroads there. The best news is that you might even live in a place where because of the cost of living, you could actually even. I mean, I hate to put it like this, but undercharge your competitors in America and go for it and actually still live very well, by the way, like still live incredibly well. And it depends. You know, I actually I was just talking last week to a guy.
who moved to Thailand about 10 years ago to open his marketing agency there. And he has not looked back since. Okay, Israeli guy, I will say, but not American, but still hasn't looked back since. And he lives very well. And he basically he still charges. Actually, he's got himself up to the point where now he can charge more. So he's just naturally kind of more competitive with the market here.
But he said he started out low and he was doing well. He was living incredibly well. Now, obviously, he's living like a king. So it can work very well for you. But I think, listen. You have to come off and say, hey, you know, I'm still American. I understand the American market. So I have to still come off American while I live abroad. And I am maybe still also gunning for the local market as well. So, you know, that's that's just I think something to always take.
into consideration is it's like it's never it's never a game of like oh i can just kind of you know lay off the gas it's like no you have to talk to the american market you have to come off serious you have to come off professional good english good presence not looking like a scam It's just like anyone in that sense, you know, in any market. Right. So, yeah. I mean, one maybe like caveat I'd put to that come off serious is I think there's a need to be.
professional but i don't know if this has been your experience i almost feel like there's a shift that's happening in the american professional mindset which is to say we don't want to be overly stuffy You know, you even just look at it in the trends on video calls of the number of people who are.
dressed to the nines versus people who were just in like black t-shirts and stuff i think there's definitely a social trend i mean you talk about millennials and gen z kind of now entering the workforce or not entering the sorry
We're in the workforce. We're dominating the workforce now. And so we're shifting the culture in America. And so I think- yeah i think definitely being professional but maybe almost not being too uh too polished there's like this this fine line i think you probably have to i know what you mean yeah let me even change my words i don't even mean serious what i meant more is like
take it serious don't be serious like i don't care you know if you want to brand yourself do brand however you want like talk however you want but do it do it in the way that americans can feel that they're talking to an american right and do it in the feel that they get that they're speaking to someone who you know i'll just say like this take english correctly that can get the idea across that it's not in broken i can't tell you how many times even it's amazing too now even with like chat gpt
Then I'll come across founders who really come to you and say, oh, look at this. And it's like, you can't understand what they're trying to get through. So it's like, you know, you can come off funny, serious. in between whatever you want to get sarcastic i don't care but do it in correct phraseology that you know whatever that's going to get it through to the american audience that's going to really show that you're in a sense serious about making your mark so
Yeah, that is super important. I mean, Jordan, would you say that the move to – when people are making that move – Again, they want to penetrate the American market. Is there a good way to educate themselves on like... i guess just like business norms like is it a person that they work with is it like a course that they take like how do they expose themselves so that when they're ready to make that move you know they've got those competencies to to work in the american workplace
Yeah, for sure. You know, so I think first of all, when you're kind of exploring anything these days right obviously like obviously the easy answer is say oh well you know have you heard of google but like um you know it's beyond that i mean i think it's really connecting with certain types of
uh bodies let's call it so first would be seeing how you could get market research right you know seeing if you're really interested in going to america and figuring out see gets market research on the industry that you're actually trying to penetrate
Learn about it. Learn about associations that might exist. Learn about places in the U.S. where that industry has maybe more of a presence and less of a presence so that you're aware of that. One way to do that is also to connect to places like a chamber of commerce or to connect.
to other institutions like that that might exist in these states. I think that people don't always understand that you can do those types of things. And that's what a lot of these associations are there to do is to actually kind of provide that information in a sense free of charge. It's what we do and it's what other places do.
And these even include professional associations in America, in individual states that actually provide this type of service. So I definitely think sometimes people make it harder than it seems, but it's like... think about it look at these types of things now if you don't even know that these associations exist or that chambers of commerce don't exist I think it's then you have to start looking at other kind of larger bodies which is saying okay like
How do we look at, let's say, you know, something having to deal with America, American business, you know, the American consulate even can sometimes have this type of information. So. People need to kind of go for the type of information, look for it. And that's beyond any just Google search or whatever. Obviously now with AI, you can maybe even type in certain questions and they'll come up with a list of things, which is even more easy.
This is the kind of direction I would say is, you know, obviously kind of connect with these types of local organizations because they're also the guys who at the end of the day can help you. make the connection and make it in the right way and make you understand whether it's worth your time you know there are people we have told already in our nascent you know existent basically right you know that uh it's not really worth their time working with us because
we don't have the end for them. And that's fair, because maybe they, you know, the industry is not right for them there. And that's okay. So I think it's also being real and not wasting your time in that sense. Well, and this goes to speak to why it's beneficial that you have started a chamber of commerce between Israel and Colorado. I mean, that's just one way that people, especially in the Israeli market.
can find inroads into the us is through that chamber of commerce so good good call out on chamber of commerce you said something earlier about um the inverse so us-based businesses looking to port their solutions or sell to other markets. Would you mind sharing from your experience? Cause it sounds like you've worked with people in this scenario before. Would you mind sharing?
Maybe pitfalls, common pain points or issues you've seen American businesses make when they try to take their service or product abroad.
Yeah. So, I mean, I think there is one thing, and I think you said it early on too, is like the whole idea of culture. I think that's still always going to be a big thing. Like Americans... i think often think that business culture is kind of similar all over the world and it's very much so not the case i'm not saying all americans right obviously there are people who are successful at it and whatever but
the when i've seen pitfalls right when i've seen failures it can often come from that type of misunderstanding of the of the cultural situation the the read of that type of person or the power dynamics and and that's real and these are things
that you know you hope that there's a solution out there in a sense you know to actually handle because really these are things that um can really uh damage people moving out there at the same time i would say it's similar uh in a sense to moving to america and saying You need to find your target. You need to find your partner. You need to find...
where it is in the specific location that you're looking to make your inroad and for what reason. Are there opportunities too that the government offers? Are there opportunities that local municipalities or local organizations offer?
And beyond that, are there reasons why you shouldn't move to certain places based on a number of factors, whether it's compliance or other things? And so I think these are some of the pitfalls I've seen. It's generally like on that level, though, it's I would say it's kind of more on the.
the top strategy it's it's like once they kind of get here and they figure it out they tend to do pretty well because a lot of the times they'll mesh in with the with kind of like the local ecosystem and it's and it's easy enough um but i think it's that that kind kind of the top strategy part, which can be lost there.
cultural element and um so if you have any examples of this i think that could be really helpful for our listeners to hear but even just thinking you know the connection that you have um you know i know you've been in israel now for eight years and i'm sure there's always been a connection there but At some point you moved your business or you had your business, you know, moving into the.
Israeli marketplace. I mean, were there any challenges that you faced? Or did you find that that was a pretty easy transition to go from the American market to the Israel market? I mean, listen, I would say it's always going to be challenging in that sense for any market you try to enter.
That's not your own because you just are unaware of what's going on there to a certain degree, even if you've done your research. It's a little bit of you are stepping into a different game. But I think, you know. when i listen looking at my experience i can kind of say okay there were elements of you know just uh cultural elements that i didn't quite understand there are elements of the networking elements that you don't always understand in terms of also how to get into the
business community. Um, and then there are just, you know, kind of what I would say language and other things that can make it challenging, right? Obviously listen, a lot of people in Israel speak English, but when you speak Hebrew, which I do. you get another element where you're now even that much more connected to the ecosystem, right? Because you have that ability. Just like someone who lives in Spain, if they're not speaking Spanish, they're going to get only so far. It's just real.
So it doesn't matter in that sense. And that's probably a universal. When I've worked with some clients who have tried to come into the American market or sorry, come into the Israeli market, generally speaking. I think the hard parts for them really do stand still at that cultural element. And that's actually why at one point, one of the things I was actually working on was an agency that I actually focused on helping American clients do that.
in Israel to kind of make their move here and actually do marketing campaigns here but to do it with us as Americans who and Americans and Canadians actually who live here. And can kind of be that that bridge for them so that they can, you know, kind of we can talk to the Israelis who are very Israeli and sometimes don't manage things in the way that they like it in America and Canada and vice versa. We're able to talk.
for the israelis to the americans and canadians so that everyone gets along and it was really actually uh you know it was it was a worthwhile kind of move so working with like you know consumer brands like uh travel agencies and uh fashion brands so to do that type of stuff so what were some of those like translation pieces where we're like you know somebody's coming in american company's coming in and and trying to you know
sell in Israel. What was some of that like translation that needed to be done aside from just like the language stuff? Because I think that's kind of like the low hanging fruit. But what were some of the cultural pieces that they needed to adjust? Yeah, for sure. I think there's several kind of things like that. But one of them specifically is kind of like the way in which Israelis kind of like to negotiate.
Negotiation here is really part of the culture in the Middle East in general. And it's just part of that. kind of situation. And you have to be aware of that. And it's not to say that in America, people won't negotiate in business, but I think there's a little bit less pushiness in American business culture.
on in general right i'm not talking about specific people or specific you know someone's listening to this they're like i'm i'm getting the best deal tomorrow right you know but i'm saying like just generally what i've seen and israelis can be very pushy or or not answer to try to push their deal forward. And so it's making sure that those types of communications don't break down when you're trying to get a contract signed or get a proposal agreed upon.
These are classic things. So that's for sure a major one. The negotiation, I think, is a major factor. Yeah. And I imagine, too, that there's probably a role where if negotiation is a key and central... um kind of fixture in the in the culture uh and like you said in the middle eastern culture in general it's a negotiation maybe some people will call it haggling but we'll call it negotiation or negotiating
In an environment like that, I imagine there's probably like a strategy around even how you present your pricing. I mean, is that kind of one of the things people should be considering is like, if you're presenting your pricing on your website, like...
Maybe you need to be more flexible there. Like, is that kind of where things come into play or is it more advising them when they go to actually like try to sign the contract or come up with a contract? So I think in that sense, you know, that's really actually interesting when you kind of bring that.
stuff up because that's like a the element of like the technical actually like once you've figured out the ecosystem and kind of the the cultural elements it's digging down to like very specific things that can actually really influence kind of business making in that sense. So for sure, like, listen, in Israel, sometimes you can have a price and set and a lot of people just assume that's negotiable.
you know that's a negotiable price and it doesn't matter if it's on your website it doesn't matter what it is it's negotiable now of course that's not all everything that's not you know it's not like you go to the supermarket and can start yelling with the cashier and you're like oh no i you know it was uh five you know five
instead of 10. It's not, it's not how that works, but in a situation like a business or, you know, a service oriented agency or something like that, people might try to start really negotiating with you and getting to a certain price based on.
other factors that are not necessarily based on kind of like packaging, which might be kind of how we see it in America, let's say. And that I think is something that in any new ecosystem you go to are kind of nuances to the business culture that you start. picking up on and figuring out how then to make your own situation like that for example i think in america you have to be very contractual people like contracts they want them
Not only do I want them, they might not even do business with you if you don't have a contract and a good one at that. And so a place like Israel sometimes works a little bit more on the, you know, my word is my word. And it's not uncommon. It's not that it happens again in every situation. I'm sure, I'm sure it's not happening necessarily at $5 million deals. Right. You know, though, maybe I could be mistaken. Um, but.
it's not uncommon for that to happen and to sometimes be okay with that being the situation so again you have to figure that out is that the first of all is that something you're willing to put up with And second of all, if you are willing to put up with it, how are you going to manage that? Because at the end of the day, you have to say, maybe it's something worthwhile, maybe it's not. I can tell you, for example, that no matter what I...
have stopped the whole word of mouth type of thing i don't go with that for years i haven't agreed to that because i realized that while that's a thing here and it's a little bit more so than i was accustomed to in america i was not about it so i'm sticking i stick with contracts people working and that's it
But at the end of the day, you still have elements of business conversations that can lead to, Hey, but like, we don't really, you know, need that type of agreement. You're like, no, no, no, we really do. Yeah. Interesting. Interesting. Well, you know, there's a lot of definitely a lot of costs and complexities. You've talked about, you know, just the cultural element. And then also you've talked about.
regulatory complexity. I mean, I experienced this myself working in corporate America with a multinational company where we had branches in India and Brazil and China and like some very complicated places to try to navigate. So I get that, the regulatory complexity. I would assume many people listening to this or other founders, agency owners, they'd think to themselves,
That is so complicated. Why would I ever consider taking my business, service or product, and porting it overseas? Why would I sell to a different market? What goes into the calculus for determining... whether it's good for us to move to a new market. Yeah, it's so interesting, right, to decide to actually think about that. Because I think because you were also you went to Turkey for a little bit, too. So you also like understand that type of.
you know, why, what you could say wanderlust, but also like, you know, kind of why you might do something like that. But I think it's really a personal like decision at the end of the day, because yes, I could make the argument that.
You know, you can make more money, you could save more money, you know, living like the guy in Thailand, different qualities of life, all these types of things. And there's a lot of truth to that. There's also some places that you go that that's not so true. Or maybe the quality of life is.
even the same or you know kind of more expensive it's it's real so i can't make that decision for someone but what i can say is that if you're into kind of exploring new markets and actually seeing how you can leverage your american connection to do business
you should be seeing how you can live abroad and doing business because at the end of the day, that's what you have as kind of an asset is that you are American, you are abroad, you come from a strong economy and a strong market where people are interested in working with it.
See how you can leverage it. And if it's worthwhile for you to also live in that place, too, while doing it, why not? And I think that's that would be the kind of the lifestyle. So because then you have to also decide if that's really for you. Right. You know, you might want to live. I'll just say, you know, you can maybe make a better living in Thailand, but then you also have to live in Thailand. Is that what you want? Yeah. You know, so.
Yeah, that's, I mean, that's a really, really good point. And I think you're talking, you're definitely touching on that, that lifestyle piece and, and, you know, being able to work from wherever you want to in the world. But I'm even just wondering from a, from a business standpoint, like if let's just say there's.
you know somebody who watches this or just because they know you through your your experience in colorado they come to you and you're like hey we're a business we're located in colorado we're thinking maybe it's time for us to explore going and selling into the UK or to Spain or to Brazil or some of these other different countries. Not necessarily saying that you're the expert in this, but you do have experience going to a new market. For sure.
I guess, would there be anything that you would say that you would caution them against? Like, is there any like red flag in your mind that you'd be like, well, maybe your business is not ready to really go to a new market? I think.
Beyond... financial worries that they would have to know about right you know because there are logistical concerns about you know if you're trying to open offices there or hire people or whatever so monetarily like for sure like if they're not ready i would say it's also like if they haven't done the actual
research about the place they're trying to go to. So that meaning beyond just knowing like, oh yeah, London is cool and a big city and there's a lot of tech there, but knowing like that there's a space for you, let's say in London, or that there's a space for you in Madrid. And what do I mean by that? that there's a need for your services, right? If you're just another video company going and opening an office there.
Maybe there's a reason you should because you started getting into, you know, European filmmaking. You're trying to get to European festivals. You want to break into that scene. Maybe there's a reason for it. You've done your research. You understand the clubs, the associations, the movie house, whatever it is.
go for it. Let's, you know, then maybe it's really worth your time, especially if you also have the money for it. Um, and, and can do that logistically on the other hand, if you just to think Madrid's cool and UK is cool and it could be a fun time. Well, I'm not saying you won't succeed. It might be a trial by fire, but don't be surprised also if the opposite happens and it's a little bit more likely to.
That's good. Yeah, that's very important. So we're going to circle back real quick because I want to tap into some social media related things. We've been talking about moving to new markets and the cultural differences. I myself, at least from an American perspective. I'm inclined to believe that with the proliferation of social media, the TikToks of the world, the Facebooks, the whatever you name it, social platform, there's a growing sense in which the youth.
the younger generations, even though there's cultural nuances between the different countries. The gap is starting to be bridged a little bit more. That's just my general sense. From your perspective, living in the part of the world that you live and being involved in the marketing that you are. Is that your perspective when it comes to social media? Do you feel like the gap is relatively small? I think the connection gap is relatively small. I still think that in a certain way...
there's still very much kind of cultural enclaves within social media that kind of make it so that people are still different and diverse. But listen, there's no doubt that everyone saw when Trump got assassinated. or got assassinated, got shot. Attempted assassination. Attempted assassination. Sorry. And basically, there's no doubt anyone saw that.
it was all communicated in different languages there were people making parodies or memes or whatever in their own languages with their own cultural you know significance but everyone saw that And everyone was a party to it. And a lot of people saw it. And especially the youth or the ones using it the most are seeing it. So, you know, even from like, let's say a business perspective, right? If you're on social media, you're making.
high quality content and you're let's say you know nike or coca-cola obviously these are brands that kind of bridge the gap generally because everyone wants them but it you you really can see that people all over the world are are are getting influenced by that type of media um sure it might be culturally specific but they are kind of getting affected by those types of companies so i do think it's real um
But we still have, in a sense, certain features that distinguish every market from itself and each person from itself. Yeah. And you said the cultural enclaves exist in these different social media spheres. I mean, that's even true even within the United States. There's plenty of plenty of spots where you're not going to have the exact same experience on social media.
And you're not going to be culturally influenced the same way as the next person. And so I can definitely see that. I mean, so from what I'm hearing you say, it's like, even though the medium might be widely adopted around the world. there might still be a significant difference cultural difference that exists even in the younger generations yeah sure i mean think we we have i mean let's be honest the social media
platforms basically tell us that we get, you know, in a sense targeted based on our local, you know, geographic location. So no doubt we are being fed a certain sense, algorithmically, at least, and, you know, technologically based. a certain level of a feed that is geographically specific and within that happens to be the cultural specifics. But I do think no matter what. There are certain things that are just proliferating on social media at a high level due to what you might call virality.
preferred content, targeted ads, whatever it might be, that in a sense can reach in a global effect and can have that kind of global effect. And in a sense, then bring us closer together. And because, like I said, the connection gap.
is a lot shorter not necessarily the cultural gap but the connection gap is then you're able to connect very quickly right like you can have a guy you know just think about this on uh i just you know use like the biggest name possible but you can have you know like on uh kim kardashian's instagram right you could have a guy from morocco a lady from france a person from india you know whatever
all talking on the same thread one after the other. The connection gap is incredibly tiny. I mean, you can literally, they could just hit the guy above them and send them a message basically. But that doesn't necessarily mean that they're going to.
understand each other get along have the same cultural experience you know what i mean sure yeah that makes a ton of sense yeah their their local experience is going to be it's going to be very different do you think with this information Obviously, we're talking about Instagram and Facebook, some things that are more...
personal social media platforms we're looking at a platform like linkedin you know and maybe tying it back to our kind of theme here talking about entering new markets uh is it simply whatever i'm doing in the united states from a us you know linkedin content perspective is going to also then resonate
if i wanted to then bring that to israel or to spain or to brazil or wherever else like that like is it safe to assume that or should i assume that we need to kind of like totally rethink our strategy to get into that another country Yeah, I think you definitely have to kind of be local with your content if you're trying to break into that market, right? So it's one thing if you're living abroad.
let's say but only focus on the american market then you can continue doing your content whatever way you want because you're talking to the americans right and if you already have that down going and living in thailand right if that's our example of the show it's fine
But at the end of the day, if you're trying to, let's say, bridge the gap and talk to the Thai people, to talk to the Israeli people, to get them to work with you so they go to America or so you can leverage that Americanness and that asset, well, then you need to figure out how you talk to them.
and how you kind of localize your content for them, whether that's doing it in their language, whether that's talking about the problems that they might encounter along the way to doing that exact goal that you're offering them and answering those kind of problems for them.
I think that's something that you always have to address. You have to see if it's really relevant also for your business model and then how you can apply that. Yeah. Maybe one last question before we wrap things up is you're talking about the...
when it comes to social media, there's the, or just talking about like, because of the proliferation of technology, there's the connection gap versus the cultural gap. The cultural gap still exists. Maybe, maybe it's shrinking slightly, but for the most part, it still exists there. But technology. via social media has caused the connection gap to, to decrease. When it comes to, when it comes to doing the, the work.
of actually porting into that, that next country. I mean, like, are we just talking about like hiring a local social media agency or like who helps you navigate the, I guess those, those translations and those transitions. Yeah, I think it's a hard question. It's actually a hard answer, I think, because it's not the same. It's not a cookie cutter answer. That's the truth. It's not a cookie cutter answer for...
just how do you go abroad and i think that's also something like to kind of you know and in a sense the show on is really it's like it's not cookie cutter you and that's what i've been saying kind of the entire time you have to do your research you really have to understand where you're going um who can help you
I, you know, if you're really trying to make that on the ground presence act, you know, activity, you need to connect with like maybe a local PR firm, maybe a local social media agency, maybe a local content creation agency, maybe a local web designer. who can localize your content, make it relevant for that audience, especially if it is that you're trying to connect there. You know, I cannot tell you the amount of times where people have wanted to work with me simply because I'm American.
you know i might be able i might you know obviously i provide a good service they you know come back they recommend whatever but they basically the thing that puts me over the edge compared to someone else is that i'm american so i kind of know what americans want i work with them i've gone you know even now that i live abroad i still go all the time and i'm talking to americans so it's like i i i'm not i'm not that far removed
so in that sense i have that local connection for them that they appreciate so if you're trying to have that type of connection go for it if not you know it's more of a kind of you have to feel it out yourself
Maybe it's worthwhile for you to have that local agency. Maybe it's worthwhile for you to do a few ads and test the water yourself before figuring that out. If you want that agency, that's a little different, but that's really how it would go. And I think, like I said, it's not cookie cutter. It's.
Very market-specific. Some places, for example, too, they don't work on anything but having that personal connection. Some places, you're okay doing Zoom calls, let's call it, or having that remote guy. So, yeah. That's how I would say it.
Well, I really appreciate your perspectives. Like I said at the beginning of the show, I just totally threw my show notes out because I was like, you know what? I feel like this is the thread that we need to be pulling on here. And this was very insightful for me. And as people are listening...
this my hope is that there's going to be a couple people who are listening that are saying i am in that spot where i do want to move into the american marketplace or vice versa i'm an american company i'm considering working abroad and they've heard some of the stuff you're talking about today Clearly, you've got some experience in this. Where can people go to connect with you or follow your story for JB Upskill? Yeah, sure. So obviously, you can find me on LinkedIn, Jordan Kostrinsky.
You can also we're actually doing a rebrand soon. So my website is about to change. I'll save that, though, for when it actually happens, because I'm still doing it. But I'll send you the new link. But yeah, LinkedIn is always good.
think just you know one thing I wanted to say too is you can actually make the move too because sometimes I feel like maybe I was being negative this show and I'm like I'm living the dream I love it I love what I'm doing and you know i have basically me my partner eight workers and we're still we have people in the states we have people in israel and actually in other parts of the world too and it's one of these things that i would say it's kind of like
go for it. You don't need to be huge to do it if you really want to do it. But it's, you know, go for it in that sense. Yeah. You don't need to be a multi-million dollar company in order to make that move into a new market. You can do exactly what Jordan's talking about right now. Exactly. You don't need to be that guy. You can make it work if you're interested in doing it. Yeah.
That's so great. Well, Jordan, I want to say thank you again so much for taking some time and chatting with us. I really appreciate it. I appreciate it. Thank you, man. And thank you to our listeners. If you found value in our episode today, please leave us a review and tell your friends about us. If you're interested in being a guest on our show as a digital agency owner, or maybe somebody with insights that can help digital agencies grow, head over to our website to learn more.
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