The Mandela Effect: A Physicist Explains How Consciousness Changes Reality | Cynthia Sue Larson

real results. Maybe you could start with scribe. How you got into studying the Mandela effect.

This is big and so the missing sock in the laundry was the classic one back in the nineties. Now for people that are listening and they can't imagine a time before social media. It was before social media, so it was kind of a totally different realm of websites,

before AI, before large language models and everything. So back then, you know, in the nineties, I just started publishing sort of a newsletter that was that I would email out to people and people that were interested in the topic, because I was finding out, yes, people are interested in the topic, but they're kind of embarrassed to talk about it publicly, especially if things are upheering or moving around.

They they figure that people would call them crazy. Back in the nineteen nineties, I have a physics degree from UC Berkeley, so I should put that out there too. Part of what convinced me that this is much more than just people confused who are misremembering things misplacing things is that it was clear to me that humans on a very macroscopic scale, in large wet biological conditions are capable of experiencing phenomena that we consider normal in the

so called quantum realm. So with the combination of my own experiences, the new experiences that I'm starting to research and collect from people sharing them with me, and then I was publishing on a monthly basis and through my website and through the email newsletter. That's how it became really clear to me, this is something that's real. And then I found other researchers that were writing books about

it too, such as the author PMH Atwater. I found her book Future Memory, and she had a chapter called reality shifts. So for me, it started and I was already calling these reality shifts. So I contacted her and found out that indeed, this is She considered it a real phenomenon too, and just something that may not be

popular yet, but it's it's a growing trend. And then fast forward to the early two thousands and my website at that point had been running for a number of years and Fiona Broom was the person who popularized the term Mandela effect, and she did so after she went to a dragon Con conference and noticed a bunch of people remembered, Hey, didn't Nilsen Mandela die in prison? Like, yeah, well, then how is he becoming like the president of South

Africa or whatever? How is he still alive? And there was a little bit of confusion going back and forth, like what is this? And at that point I had already written my first book about this called Reality Shifts, and in that book I'd covered both a dead cat of my roommate being back alive again and also the actor Larry Hagman being alive again. So I've been I've absolutely been covering this topic that we now call the Mandela effect for over twenty five years.

a connection. But only in my most recent book, The Mandela Effect in Its Society, am I starting to really lay it out in terms of here are some possible theories, and this is the way physicists talk about physics, and then side by side with a sort of a dictionary or a lexicon of typical language that experiencers use when they noticed that, for example, there's a flip flop, that the situation is one way, and then they look again and it's now it's the other way, and then it

goes back to the first way, and they're paying more attention and it's still changing. That kind of thing is very confusing, but when you think about physics and recognize that everything can be seen to exist in a superposition of states, at least on the so called quantum realm, and I'm laughing because I don't think there is such a thing. I think everything responds this way when you

engage with it in a certain manner. So we can absolutely observe superpositions of states in our daily lives, such as what is known as this so called flip flop, where you're looking at something and my neighbor's roof didn't have gutter guards, and then I'd look back and it did, And it was going back and forth every other day for about a week or so. It was just doing this repeatedly, to the point I could point it out to other members of my household. And that's a small

scale Mandela effect. It's just my household, and I already knew from experience. If I talk to the neighbors, then the situation kind of locks in place a bit like if I talk to them, like did you get new leaf guards? They'll say, no, what leaf guards? And they'll be gone. And like I saw one, I saw them. They were there without any noise, no construction crew. It was just sort of there and then gone and then

back and forth. So and in my book Reality Shifts, I show pictures re enacting situations where I'd filled a bird feeder and it was full, and then it was empty and it was like full. So people, when that happens, you might be scratching your head and wondering, am I imagining things. You can check with other friends, family members,

colleagues find out if they also remember it. But what gets exciting about the Mandela effect is the scale, because now it's moving into a much larger arena of where thousands or maybe millions of people can experience a change, a collective alternate memory. That's how I define a Mandela effect, and we'd experience it together.

And I was like, that's so weird. So it was like they're still old, but they're much more modern than the you know, woodfreame storm windows.

that happen. And after twenty years and they all they unshrink exactly to the old size that they'd been, as if i'd never washed them in hot water to begin with.

feeling when this event occurred? And it's very across the board, very consistent that if people one of the most common reality shifts is traveling farther in less time. So it's an experience where you're just like, oh my gosh, I'm late. It's going to take thirty minutes to get to the appointment, and I'm leaving and I've only got fifteen minutes to

get there. A lot of people notice that if they just relax and kind of sing their favorite songs kind of instead of getting all tense about it, changed their mindset and just tell themselves, I'm always at the right place at the right time, or ask how good can it get my favorite setup question? Then they do show up amazingly on time, quite often, not all the time, but quite often exactly on time, which is impossible because they weren't speeding, they didn't break laws, they weren't running

their red lights. And so yeah, it's absolutely clear to me from decades now of research and my own personal experience that yes, and it ties in with physics as well. The physics doesn't talk about the attitude of the observer. But truthfully, if you are in a very relaxed, grounded state and you're just expecting success, it's kind of like beginner's mindset, beginner's luck. Then you'll have things quite often turn out miraculously well against all odds and against what

we know about what's possible. Like you can't drive that far in fifteen minutes, but people are doing it. They're covering, you know, hundreds of miles in a very short time. I'm wondering, was I daydreaming? What happened? How'd I get here so fast? It's a very common reality shift. So I'm mentioning it so people might realize, oh my gosh, I think I've done that. Yeah.

my gosh, how's this going to work out. We arrived like right as the kids were walking out, Like we were walking up, but they were walking out, and it was like we were more on time than anybody else who had got there, you know, early or late. And I was like, Oh my gosh. But then I wanted to do that driving across country, like from out to Colorado from Missouri is like a twelve hour, fourteen hour drive. I was like, oh, this is great. I know how to do it now. And it didn't And I was like,

didn't work. And I was like, ah, I wanted really wanted to skip ahead and arrive you know, skip Kansas basically.

proper day dream detached state. So for best success, ironically, you need to kind of let go of any like it's okay if I'm in Kansas and not even not even think about Kansas or how fast you're going or what time it is or where we are, just like it's I hate I don't want to say this, don't do this. This is not an advocation for people to do this. Do not daydream when you're driving, But if you happen to be daydreaming, you will have probably found that it was more successful. So it's.

we're just going to sing. So you want to get them into coherence and whatever that takes. Maybe they don't want to do it because they're busy arguing or whatever, but if they'll join in, you can start getting the coherence because they're getting breathing. And music's great because it can bring people into that state. They're probably not going to be chanting home. But if you had that kind of group, I mean, they wouldn't be uncoherent in the first place, probably, but if they are, then you can

bring them back. So you want to get them into that coherent state. And then then as the group is like a flock or a herd, then when you the driver kind of get into that relaxed data state, but drive safely of course. So again operating heavy machinery, I'm not telling you to daydream. I'm just saying if you happen to be already daydreaming, and if you know you're safe, then it's okay. So but I can't advocate that.

If I'm looking for something that I need in the cupboard and I just shut the cupboard, walk away, come back, look again, shut the cupboard, walk away, come back, look again, it's I'm giving a privacy like okay, Spice, you can come back and I'm not gonna look. Okay, I'm not gonna look are either or whatever's missing? But that has worked for me sometimes and in this case, Yeah, teleported to safety is very common. I think it's because people

need it. There's something that happens when you're in that moment. You probably felt it, which is all of you was in one harmonious accord. You know there's a brain in the cranium, of course, I think it's called the cephalic brain.

Then there's the cardio heart brain, and now we know there's an enteric gut brain, and the gut runs the show when you just know, like I need to be safe, like this cannot happen, and that's like a gut feeling, and then your heart feels the same, your head feels the same, and then you just blink your eyes shut for a moment, and so you're not quantum Zeno effect locking it. Quantum Zeno effect means you're looking at something so often that you're locking it, possibly in the wrong reality.

So you don't want to be looking. And that's what you did. You just didn't look, and then you look again and it's quite different. Yeah, so many people have experienced that, and it's against all odds, and I wouldn't have expected that would be a common thing, but I've come to find out it is. But there's a there's a very strong discouraging factor here where people don't feel

safe talking about it publicly. So if I do talk about it at a talk, I'll get swarmed with people afterward whispering to me, this happened to me, but they don't want to go on and they don't want anyone to know. There's a stigma. More than other effects, I think this one is the one of the strongest statement attached to it because people know they're just certain no one's going to believe me. They'll think I'm really nuts.

They'll think I can't judge distance. Like if someone heard your story, they'd be nodding, and then they'd be thinking he had no clue what was going on. He just thought it was in front of him and going to hit the windshield. He was a little You know, they're doing this for themselves to calm themselves so that everything fits back in their mental construct instead of if this really happened to Derek, then what does that mean for reality.

You know, that's the hard question, but not everyone's going to go there.

Steve and Boucher from Canada wrote to me and said, you don't know me, but I'm so glad that you are here. And I see you posted something recently which surprised me because I remember that you died, so of course I wanted to follow up, like, oh, tell me more I'm not upset at all, Like now, I don't think you're crazy. I'd like to know when did you hear this? What had happened? How did you find out?

What was the give me all the details without me telling him anything, and then everything he shared with me, I started noticing it's dovetailing with a time in my life that I almost did give up on life. I had pneumonia, I was feeling emotional betrayals, and I just felt like, what's the point. You know, people are do

mean things whatever. I'm just going. But then I in my reality, what I remember is the meat that's still here, or the versions of plural or whatever, the versions of me that made it through I or Wei or whatever, decided that my life is bigger than just my own, and so what if I got betrayed, It matters more than it's not just selfish for me to be here until I get you know, I'm betrayed, but I'll deal with whatever this betrayal costs, the money, the time, the court, whatever, Like, Okay,

I'll do it. It's worth it for other people, so I'll do this. And that was and then I just felt so much stronger. It's like I'll just do it whatever it is. It didn't feel overwhelming. The pneumonia in my lungs instantly started feeling like it was just a cold that was going to clear up. Even though I told my husband and my parents and my daughter's like, I

think I'm dying. This is really bad, you know. But it turned around with that decision, and fascinatingly, people notice this and I write about it in my book because it's I think it's a very interesting report and who better to tell it than someone like myself who's been researching this. So I do believe people when they say I think maybe I died, and that is how people take it. That could be wide. There's a stigma about this one because it's almost embarrassing to say I'm a ghost,

Like what are you saying here? That's like, what does this mean? And it's not a ghost, You're not a ghost. In my case, I'm the one who decided I'll do what it takes. I'll be brave and strong and stand up to all these indignities and the end, all the issues and problems and hardships and all my buttons getting pushed emotionally at once. Yeah, I'll deal with this because it's worth it for my value, what I'm doing for the world. It's not me that decides that. So that

was for me what it took. But I think in that moment when you're about to hit a deer, you're not thinking any of that. You're just in that moment, and that as a very common experience, and I think I think reality wants us to wake up. I think consciousness is playing with us. You might say playing. That was pretty rough play, but it wants to get our attention. We are consciousness, we are reality, so we're getting our own attention. And to me, it looks like it's a

time of great awakening. So I am noticing this happening much more, and now, more than twenty five years later, people are saying, go ahead, print my full name. It's okay. That was not what people said in the nineteen nineties.

live right now, which is wild. But so so here's something interesting because my wife is she's right along where I am understanding all this research, and you know works in the quantum with her clients and all this stuff.

But we had this incident that I shared with you about our daughter's yes jacket duplicating itself yes, and she is like that that doesn't count as metaphysical because it's probably just we brought home someone else's exact jacket because we picked it up because we thought it was our daughters, and now we have two covers, like a normal linear explanation.

And I feel like that's a lot of people's tendency is to try to explain a weird effect by like a well years how it could have happened, you know, theoretically as possible X y Z. How often do you deal with that type of experience.

next year in twenty twenty. One of those people that was presenting at that time was talking about just a duplicate items showing up and it had the same markings, and it was like it was like a tool of the trade, like an artist's tool. I think it was a ruler, and it's like, here's the exact same ruler. Now I have two of them. You know, this is really weird, and so I think there's again maybe a stigma on this one. So I'm not hearing as many

reports of it. That may change now that you're mentioning it, you're talking about it. But I have a question for you. When you and your wife had that thought, did you then check it out, because that's that's a good thing to do. Go back to the place where you picked up the jacket and find out.

and she was like, no, that's four, try again. And then she looked and there was a fifth marble and it had just like ap peered in her hand.

was with my young daughters at the time. Kids are great, They're very open to the sort of thing, so they're like, it doesn't really occur to them that this should not be possible yet, So I'm open minded. They were open minded, and I just kept telling them, I think, is this enough for the tip? Because I told them we need, however many dollars, like six dollars or whatever. They said, no, let's look again. So we just kept opening this magic

it wasn't a magic wallet, just my regular wallet. We'd open it again, pull out another dollar bill, like that's it, but let me shut it and we'll see, you know, should we look again? Like wow, wow, so much fun. You did this multiple times, multiple times, but with children who are just the best, because again, until they've been told to such things are impossible, they don't know that. The beginner's mind is strong, so you're able to see

the true reality much more readily. And my daughters were telling me things like my toy moved by itself, and I believe them. They were not lying to me. But we're sort of an open household that way. So if that happened, then I was interested, which toy? What did it do? My toy horse? You know, it moved. It's like it moved its the main you know, the hair that's on it moved, Like, okay, which way did it move? I was just curious, like tell me more instead of like that's impossible.

the bushes. She's like, I didn't see it, but I believe you and real affirming, you know that she believes like what you're experiencing and that it might be totally different from what the rest of the group is seeing.

in Berkeley right now. So the group started there and some of the people, the original members are still in the Bay Area and they didn't want to just shut up and calculate, and they wanted to know what's the real nature of reality? What are we learning from quantum physics. They wanted to go deep into that mystery. And at that time when quantu physics was new, people were told shut up and calculate. We just need the bomb, we just need atomic energy, so don't think about these big questions.

But these are the people that thought about the big questions. So yeah, Jack Sir Faddy was another one. He's still alive. This is quite a while ago, so Elizabeth Rosher has passed on, but Fred Allen Wolf is still with us. Jack Sir Faddy is still with us, and George Weisman and some other people too. Henry's Stapp He doesn't make a big deal out of being there, but he was

there too. He's a wonderful author and physicist. And he worked with Wolfgang Pauley, the guy that knew Carl Jung and was credited with helping him coin the term synchronicity. So it's kind of a small world, you know, these people know each other and I know them, and they're very significant and the way that we now view reality at consciousness and quantum physics, I think we need to give a lot of credit to these early pioneers, would.

And these are the folks that were interested in, you know, what's really happening. So some people prefer to look at this idea of kind of this, you know, it's kind the pop the If you're familiar with watching what the belief do we know? Then they share the No, you don't know that movie. Oh it's worthwile, Oh my gosh, I got to see it. So it's been out for a while now. But it presents this idea of the

multiverse and that there are all these different possibilities. And it also talks about how we are the observers that are basically influencing what we observe by the way that we observe it. So I think that movie kind of fell into sort of obscurity because it features Romtha and so some people aren't into channeled material. But if you just but if you don't like the channeled material, just

focus on the physics of it. It's still really powerful and the biology in ourselves what makes us so special that we can observe things differently. So it's pretty cool. And So to answer your question, I like a lot of the theories, so many of them have I think que of physics is kind of like The Blind Men and the Elephant. So we can say it's just the Bomium interpretation where you're popping the wave function and you observe it and then you see what the way you're observing it,

So that's the Copenhagen interpretation. Then there's a transactional interpretation saying that you can actually influence the past and we do it all the time. That's true, we do. So

I love the transactional interpretation. I love the multiverse theory, which the first one of those was founded by Hugh Everett the third, and that's just saying that all these it's kind of like when we talked earlier, like this is the version of me that's alive, and some dead version of me actually hit the deer or died of pneumonia,

what have you. Yeah, So I like a lot of these, and I like the holographic interpretation by David Bom that says that the way you look at things, it's like the whole is unfolded into the you know, the small, so you can unfold it and refold it. There's this sort of like it's like a gallon of paint that has a red drop in the white and as you stir it, it gets mixed up and then as you un yeah, you can unstir it, it comes back separate again.

The David Bom holographic interpretation is like the little man that's mapped into the ear accuapressure. With the ear, you're fixing your whole body. So it's the awareness that the small is, you know, it contains everything within you. I think that's true. So I'm not being cagy or evasive. I'm just saying, yes, this is the trunk of the elephant.

These are the feet, this is the legs, so's there's definitely a transactional component, there is a multiverse component, there is an observer component, and I think quantum physics is playing with us, and so we find a way to pull it all together. And so far we haven't really done that. Maybe it'll come with mathematics guiding us with

something like that. I don't want to get too obtuse with the mathematics again, but there are some topographies and geometries that are indicative that the mathematics will be changing. I think with AI it will be playing with these mathematics, going into higher level dimension dimensionality and showing us Now it all comes together. You know, there's this higher dimensions bringing an orthogonal quality, which is the theory that Philip K. Dick had about what's He knew that reality was shifting.

He noticed, you know, he gave a talk in France talking in the you know, decades ago about how you might just go one day to flip a light switch or something and it's in the different place, It's not where it was before. He was very cognizant that this is happening, and so I include those experiences in the book that I just wrote too, because Carl Jung also experienced it, and possibly others also were experiencing these things and we didn't have a term for it. So it's

these are data points that are very valuable. So I like a lot of the theories, and I'm still looking for what's the holy grail of put it all together? May require higher mathematics to do that. I think we're going to. I think we may see it in our lifetime. Now that I'm not the biggest fan of AI because it has a lot of garbage, so you have to observe what its results are. But with these kind of tools, it can st I think it's good at mathematics. It can be, and so it can start showing us how

are ways that we can put these things together? And then it's going to be up to us. Can we catch up and follow what it's saying? Can our brains this grasp this? Can we process that?

going to happen with the photon emitter. And so what makes this so interesting with the you know observings, you know this through time and watching what happens. Can you kind of present or future observation effect what happened in

the past. The answer appears to definitely be yes, and so that that can be measured by the way that these observational devices are placed with the future decision influencing where that went and then what happened, and so it gets kind of complicated pretty quickly, but that apparatus has been very useful for determining that. It also is extremely useful in showing that you can have two observers at the same place at the same time witnessing two different realities.

And to me that was a breakthrough finding from twenty nineteen, which I think deserved to be on front page news because it ties in with what we're witnessing. You know, those of us that are like your wife working with QAHT. You know, any of us that are aware, very intimately aware that reality is completely malleable and that the way

we're observing things is making a difference. Then we also usually start noticing that if you talk about something that happened in your childhood with your childhood friend or your sibling or your parents, they don't remember it the way you did, and they may have very detailed descriptions of what happened, and you might find out that's so different than when I remembered happening, that is actually normal, that actually happens a lot more than people realize, and both

can be true, and that's where it gets trippy. And so all of this factors into this matter of the future affecting the past, that you can be affecting your own past in ways that are different than your siblings, than your childhood friend, than your parents are and you're therefore ending up with a different past than theirs. And this is today.

had done to resolve some of these issues. And that that was quite profound for me. Wow when I heard that.

mind blowing. And the reporter covered that as well, saying like this just happened to me, So.

I notice. My definition would be collective alternate memory. And currently if you look it up on you know whatever, Wikipedia, you might find it says something like false miss you know, collective misremembering, false memories, collective false memories, all that sort of thing. I agree with the collective part, but I would not call them false memories. These are alternate memories. And you can tell the difference for yourself when it's your childhood or your family photo album and you know

what those photos used to be. Though now that the only proof you could ever get of it is to draw a sketch of what you remember and ask other family members, okay, can you draw a picture what it used to be? Because you have to recreate it at this point, it's not although.

my gosh, they really do have something. It really does this, I wouldn't really I put a lot of stock in that, And but it does kind of go along with the human tendency to think that there's some technological magic, like we'll have a device that will do this. People, you know, we love these toys and so like we're kind of enchanted with that idea, like, oh, looked, it's happening, but I haven't yet seen anything doing that.

it happen? Then that let's take the let's take the comment when the Nelson Mandela like, what is going on that that reality no longer exists where he died in prison?

so she knows when it happened. And she got there and she couldn't interview him because he had died, So she knows that that happened. She was a reporter she'd been. I think she was a reporter in England, also a reporter I believe in the United States, So I think she was traveling from England when she went there. I can't ask her now because she's passed away, but she did write about it in her book, and I think that's a good starting point because that pinpoints at date

and a timeframe and a place. Now if I subsequent to that, Obviously, if you look this up, you might say, like, wait a minute, I remember Nelson Mandela died like ten years ago or so, and he became president of South Africa. How could he do that if he was in prison. Well, what people share when like myself and others get together and talk about this, and this is true for people typically not in South Africa. I think Eileen could do that while she was there because she was from outside

South Africa. So the people that are quantum zeno affect checking, checking, checking, it's just the observe, observe, absorb, kind of like your OCD about something if you live in South Africa. To them, he never died. He was just he was imprisoned on Robin's Island. But he didn't die there. He was released from prison, he regains stature in the community. Then he went on to run for president, became president, so on

and so forth. But for outside of the country, I've received reports from lots of people that I respect and trust who say that they remember where they were when they heard about it when he died. They were in school and their teacher used it as a teaching moment and talked about what's going on in South Africa and

apartheid and all that. So they remember all sorts of details about his widow because when he died, when he was incarcerated, his widow wanted rightfully to retain some of his estate and there was a whole big legal mess that happened when he died in prison. A lot of

us remember that, but now it never happened. There was no legal mess, so anyway, so it's kind of like two reality paths in general, two big ones, but there could be lots of little details that are different for each independent observer based on where they were, Like, oh, my teacher told us about apartheid. I know when he died, and I remember that well. And that was someone that wrote to me from France. In America, I remember it vaguely,

but I do remember. It wasn't the main thing I was paying attention to, but it was something like, yeah, I do remember that. So it was weird when he was alive again.

We all have a causative effect on the reality that we're co creating, and to the degree that we can become self reflective and meta cognitive in other words, aware that, like I Cynthia am now talking with Derek, if I can take this view of and then I can start talking as Cynthia is now feeling inspired by these questions and challenged to try to express this in a clear way. So I'm noticing what Cynthia's thinking and feeling, but who is who am I? If I can do that, that's

the metacognition. If I'm able to notice Cynthia's pretty grounded. Now, I'm pretty calm that that's not me noticing. It's like I'm looking down, I'm seeing myself. So to the degree we can do that, we are pushing reality. But I think what you're getting at, are there dark forces or something maybe? Or are we in a battle between good and evil? That's what people often go there with that.

on so he never died for them. But if you're outside of that range and you're not checking on Nelson and Della every day, hearing about him almost every day, then he's kind of out of site, out of mind. It is like shutting the cupboard and me hoping, I hope the spice just decides to return. That would be so cool. So it's kind of like out of site, out of mind. Weird things can happen. So at a site out of mind, not checking every day, we just hear the news, Oh he passed away, and the shock

like what why? What happened? How did he die? I guess old age if he was killed. Nobody's admitting it, like that's suspicious, Well what happened? Was he sick? You know? So we're asking questions, we're remembering it. So it's a different experience if you're in it or out of it. So pushing it. But the case that I think you're really getting at is what if you remember it both ways? That one's a little hard to remember it both ways.

Although for someone like me that's outside of South Africa, I'm the only one it would have to be outside of South Africa to be able to remember it both ways, to remember I think he was okay in jail, he didn't did he die? And then I start questioning my own memory. That one wasn't a super strong one for me personally, but for me Larry Hagman the actor was much stronger. Or my roommate's cat that died and then

was back alive again. So those were super clear, both of those, Like, oh, I know for sure Larry Hagman died. He went into surgery and died, you know, right afterward, Like he did not survive that operation. They kind of stitched them up in me. But now that never happened. That happened so long, I've been very few people remember that one, but I've met a few.

was like, whoa, that's synchronicity. But it was since we've since I sent him the book, we've had a few like cool synchronicity, Interesting synchronicities.

that play out well? Like a synchronicity obviously, and doctor Bernard Bittman I mentioned his work quite a bit in my book about the Mandela effect because he points out the synchronicity and meaningful coincidence happens when people are open minded and they're looking for what is the nature of reality? They're asking the meta questions, and they're also having that kind of metical cognition that I've been talking about. So these are the activating requirements. Once you've got these, then

you're good to go for synchronicity and meaningful coincidence. And like, it's so much fun.

all that stuff. And I don't know if you have any exercises that you think might be really fun specifically to do with kids.

you can see inside. And on the lid you can create like some clay or something and stick a pin on it and then balance on top of that head of the pointy end of the needle, create a little aluminum foil. It looks like a pin wheel. Yeah, and it can spin inside. They put the case back together and without using any heat or you don't need to put your hands over it, so it should be able to be operated just through intention. You could be able to get spinning motion going. And that's a fun thing

to do with kids. They're also usually really good at spoon bending, so you could do a spoon bending party. All those things are fun. And then you mentioned the weather changing. That's a good one. Telepathy is good communicating with animals and really learning that with telepathy, everything is listening to you. For adults, that seems to be the

confusion factor that they think that they're going to be. Now, I'm going to be listening to my pet and I need I feel like the thing that they the adults seem to not realize. And some kids even have gotten and culturated to think that nobody knows what you're thinking. That's so not true. And animals are especially good at reading our thoughts, and they're reading not just the brain waves from the remember the cephalic kid, but also from the cardiac brain and also from the enteric gut and brain.

You know, like animals can smell fear, but they're really picking up the brain waves from the gut. And then heart Math Institute works with the heart coherence of course, so a lot of heart math stuff would be good for kids. But you know, in the indigenous games that indigenous kids used to play, they would do the psychic games like we do. Things like very similar to when you do rock and the paper and scissors, and you

could do that behind your back. The Native American kids were doing games like that, but I think they were doing it with the animals and so forth. So it's kind of a telepathy where kids can play the game, but also what they really are working on is telepathically both you know, the person who's playing behind their back, they're blocking, concealing what they're doing, trying to because remember everybody's site gick and everybody is actually quite telepathic, much

more receptive than we realize, much more psychokinetics too. So this kind of a game is a fun one, just a real time get some you know, fun experience, you know, seeing if you can guess is it going to You can just do it with rock paper scissors because people know that, but do you know, you can either do it so it's concealed, or try variations of it. Try letting the kids make up new variations, like how can

you change this so it's more fun? Ask them, because they're still open minded, ask them to create new games that invite everybody they're working with to expand their abilities, because it's all about expanding an existing capability set. And we've already got these abilities, most of them are lying somewhat dormant or we've actively suppressed them in some way. And then definitely bring in many of the contact modalities of opening up that kind of you know, unblocking the

left brain. And you can do it by things like chanting, dancing, drumming, the things that Shaman's have been doing. Music is very good. There's a whole book about contact modalities that's all about opening that up and it was co authored by Grant Cameron and Desta Barnaby and it's called Contact Modalities, and a bunch of those might be good for kids. It just goes through dozens, if not hundreds of these ways to basically break reopen the giving oneself permission to do

all this. And you might think kids don't need it, but they actually do. It's amazing how inculturated they get

by age five even or let alone age seven. So it's good to help them just and just give them like a different exercise each day, like today we'll be chanting, today we'll be drumming, you know, and that's kind of fun, and let them know the goal is to open up your dream space, your day dream space, and when they know that that's what the doing it for that purpose, then they can try different things and find what works

for them because intuition is so important. And kids are great at dowsing, you know, working with energy rods, and then they can expand or can track their energy field and see that happen in real time just with regular coat hangers. It doesn't need to be anything expensive. And kids are they have so much fun with all this and then you can say like, okay, now expand your field and then the friend can see like whoa, look where it is now? So fun stuff like that. There's

so many more things you can do, so much. Kids are the future for sure.

swing freely. Yeah, And I was like, why don't you go out in your front yard and see if you can dowse for the the holes, like the pipes, the water pipes, and they would cross when he went like across the water mean, and he's like, I can do it.

and designing good experiments and inquiry and stuff like that. Yeah, but I feel like there's the fundamental problem in science is that we don't account for the participation of the scientists and the you know, the fact that we're trying to isolate the thing that we're studying from the rest of the world around it, and isolation is sort of impossible. Yes, So do you think science like how we're doing science? Is it is kind of Is it actually accurate? Is it worth doing it the way that we do it?

experiments such as working with an interferometer. I was actually fortunate to be in that experiment that he did just the other year, and he constructed interferometers that he sent to fifty people, and we were just told as members of the group, we were just told that what we'd be doing is attempting to influence something that's the most delicate piece of instrumentation known to scientists right now that you can kind of mass produce, you know, like print,

you know, print out the little device and ship it out. Still kind of expensive. My little device arrived and it was wrapped in metallic wire. The whole thing was shiny, So I knew that this one has a Farita cage. Cool, so you know, no problem. So I was still able to influence it. I knew I could. What I didn't know is that what Dean Raydan was really doing is

looking at what he calls magicians and meditators. And so the people that were just meditating, and they're good at that, they've been doing it for decades, nothing wrong with that, but they're not practicing influencing reality like what you're doing with your kids, like changing the weather and stuff. Versus the magicians would be like the kids that come through

your program. The magicians are I mean, both groups could have some effect, but the magicians had a phenomenal, profound effect on influencing something, even inside the verity cage that you know. According to materialist rational science, a subjective observer cannot do that. You know, an observer you're just watching it. You can't influence a device without touching it. Arth and if you touch that interferometer, it goes squawk, you know,

the whole thing. It'll pick up even if a very large car drives by the house, so you can't affect with it or mess with it. And so to's changed. The way it's responding to the pattern of light is such a delicate process that the fact that we're able

to do that clearly indicate something's going on. So the science, I think, and then what okay, where I'm going with all this deemed He does these experiments, he's reporting on them, he's brilliant, and then he points out, okay, if this is really true, like I'm seeing that it must be, then this is kind of the end of science as we know it. It's exactly what you're getting at because our old assumptions that you can do these experiments and

the experimenter themselves is not influencing it. Like, we have to throw that out as well, you know, because everybody that's involved influences and that's where science is going. But we don't yet have the foundation of how does that work. We have the experimental process that you have a hypothesis and you know, you set up your experimental apparatus and then you get your results and you can objectively observe it. But what if you can't objectively observe it? What if

objectivity is gone? And I think that one's been gone for a long time, ever since quantum physics came in. But until now, we haven't really been bold enough to start calling for we need a new science here, you know, we need a new math of things like that amplituhedron that I was referring to earlier. I didn't really say it, but that's one kind of mathematic mathematics that might help us start thinking in a new way. And we need a new process too. How do we conduct this kind

of science? If we know that we're having this effect, then how do we move forward? Now?

of wonder if because there was there was. I did have a wonderful Eureka moment as a scientist where I like saw for the first time in my electron microscope this thing that I knew for sure was my virus. And because it didn't look like anything I had ever seen and it was definitely biological, I was like, Oh, this is it. Eureka. I almost wonder if I manifested

that now. Yeah, because it was such a cool you know, that's like kind of why I went back to grad school because I wanted to have an experience like that.

You know, there was going to be a question and answer after the movie, and there's his name, Yes, Nori Numura, and I'm thinking this is great He's not in my book Quantum Jemps because he didn't exist then. But I always show illustrations from his papers and talk about his ideas. Like, you know, if we see half of a chair that's obscured behind a wall, he has a dire picture that shows this. We know that the rest of the chair must be there. It's because it's entangled. It's coherent with

the half we do see. We don't expect a big smear of probability waves on the other half of that chair. So it's a perfect illustration. I use it all the time. And so I'm just seeing his name up there, I'm thinking, oh my gosh, he's there. So when I met him, I said I wanted he saw. I just lit up like like hey, which is great for him because there he is surrounded by four partner gulfs. All right, no offense. He looked like he'd been drinking a little bit too,

which is understandable. Again, no offense to the particle physicists. But yeah, I love the theoretical But he said when I told him, because we had tea later and I'm talking about what I'm interested in, and I told him, you know, it don't take this the wrong way. But you didn't used to exist. And I know for sure that I would have known about you because I did a lot of research in like Google scholar looking for articles.

Your name never showed up. Now you're ubiquitous. You co authored papers with Alan Gooth who won the million dollar prize and everything, and yes, scenarios. It's just like yeah, yeah, yeah, And I was like what I mean, because he really gets it. He's like, yeah, of course I didn't exist, Yeah, but now I am. And that's how I feel when people tell me that too. But I was prepared to, you know, I wanted to be there for emotional support.

He didn't need any emotional support, so yeah, yeah, yeah, like and I was like, what what, He's really sharp. So a lot of our theoretical physicists know about this increasingly, and so it's really I'm excited about a lot of

the work that's being done. And you know, there's a book that I just got by Federico Fagen, the inventor of the microprocessor, and it's what's in I think it's called Inseparable or something, and it's basically just laying out the foundation of where we are now, Like in physics, mathematics, and then he's going because he's an experiencer of conscious

phenomenon like we are. I haven't read the part yet where he gets there, but he's he's just a delight to see when I see his interviews recently on the Essentia Foundation, for example, talking with Hans just brilliant because he likes the same philosophy I like, which is like Gottfriedvillehilm lepe Needs, who's one of the inventors are calculus,

and he's a process philosopher and an optimist. So totally I see him as the father of consciousness where I see consciousness going like the metacognition I've been talking about today, and so does Federico Fijien. So I'm thinking, Wow, he's on the right track so very much. I'm reading his book slowly because I treasure it. Sometimes I go really slowly when I love a book, sometimes really fast. But

I read different ways different times. But that's an excellent book for anybody interested in that.

And I'm conducting in person events sometimes in Crestone. I'll be doing one in May of this year, and then we're planning probably to do another one in August of this year, so people get a couple chances to talk in person. I think there's something special about being in person together and like you like to do exploring around the place if you have time, like you're in a

special place, check it out. And I was telling you about Crestone, and you told me some things I didn't know about, some amazing local things that people could do.

that's putting it together. And then doctor Aaron Judkins. He's a very he's like an Indiana Jones in real life archaeologist checking out amazing sites such as ge Beckley Tepi. And also he did a documentary on Noah's Arc which I thought was really great. So he's doing that kind of work and he'll have things to talk about. We'll be talking about UFOs and conciousness, you know, and ancient archaeology. So it's kind of like bringing the past together with

the future. Where are we going, where are we headed? And what have we not been told about what's really going on? So it'll be fun and it's fun to do this in person. It's fun to be out under the stars and actually see the stars because it's crestone's tiny and there's no almost no light pollution, and even if it's cloudy, no problem. We do that thing you're teaching your kids. We just clear the sky above us. So it's a big circle, clear space. That pretty much

always happens. And then last time we saw really big spaceship or craft that was over the mountains where there was thunder and lightning. It looked like the scene from that movie, Those Encounters of the Third Kind. So it's pretty amazing and fun and so much love and it's just a wonderful experience.

sure that's the Blue Star Katina. Is that object which indicates that we're in the bridge time between the fourth and fifth worlds?

Actually it's pretty amazing. It's just like, how is this changing? You expect the hopey prophecy rock to not be changing, but the Bible changes hopey prophecy rock. He points out in the video it used to have a third line that's gone, and he says, this is some kind of magic. Yeah, he says that in his video. And then so that's him admitting that this. And to me, that's really a cool indicator. Because I read these Mandela effects. That is an indication that, like, like you said, we're in the

bridge time. In the bridge time, then I would expect the third line to be, like, don't even fixate on that. Look just at where you guys are going. Which line are you on? Are you on the line the lower line that goes to the fifth world or on that upper line? Then? Ok? Then Andela effect number two, he says, these beings have two hearts, these world leaders the first

three on the upper line. That feels He didn't say what it means to him, But if I saw that and pointed it out, I'd be saying, do you notice there's a duplicitous nature for the world leaders on the top line. They're leading people in a duplicitous way, you know, I'd say, like, watch out for someone's like two faces, two hearts.

big changes. And then the mind blower, the third one, there's a second hope prophecy Rock, and he shows it and he talks about for those of us who make it to the fifth world. Now that's showing up. So the third line, the third line's gone, and a second hope prophecy Rock has appeared, showing us the new technology to heal ourselves and the earth and the water when

we enter the fifth world. So that is huge. And then I'm getting reports that I share in my substack and on the video about people showing up at a crowded hospital where they have to they just drop their husband off and they have to go park. It's going to take a while because there's so many people there, all the cars are there. Then they come into the er and there's nobody in there, and the husband's already been admitted to a room, and all the other rooms

are empty. But every single staff member they talk to says, boy, how long did you have to wait? It is so crowded tonight? My houseban was already in there. I just I just parked and came in like no time at all. But everybody kept saying that. And the person wrote to me and said, does this mean that this is what it's going to feel like when we're in that bridge, like you're calling it the bridge time? Yes, indeed the bridge time. Both worlds are here, Yes, that is what it feels like.

it's the weirdest feeling. And so if a person's that's someone like me that's open to meta cognition, which it's like, if you're familiar with Gott Freed Vilhelm, life needs this work about the monads and about you just observe at a higher level of conscious agency. I'm now using the term that we would use conscious agency. And this is where all of this new science has to go. We have to be aware of who are we and at

what level are we observing this right now? So when we ask a question we want to live the answer to, like if those nurses are asking my favorite question, how good can it get, They're going to be in a

meta cognitive state automatically. So those are the ones that are more likely to notice, Yeah, I think I saw it crowded and uncrowded tonight they're going to be open to that because they can be walking that way and at some point they may just stay with I'm going to stay with the uncrowded, you know, you know, where everything's just groovy and it's not so repressive and stressed out.

creating all this? So a monad is like the operational aspect of consciousness itself, as it's having an, you know, an effect on what we call reality. So it's it's not exactly the most up to date term. And that's

why I'm reading the book by Federico Fijien. I'm really interested to see where we go with this and what comes next, because that's what I'm most interested in, these levels of conscious agency that's us as we're leveling up, as we're expanding our dimensional awareness and recognizing we need new math, we need new science.

Like when we were in Sidona, one of these people happened to be in Sidona at the exact same time. But they didn't like inform each other of that, but they just like, we're going to the even the same vortex sites on the same day without you know, planning it.

It's like, what does that mean? If you press them to explain it further, they might actually say, there's like a consciousness that we are that we bring together and that we can feel more fully like ourselves and more expansive individually and as a group. We you know, we're good for each other, We're good for the group. This could be where a human consciousness is evolving to as well.

That one's good for people who are very naturally intuitive, and they don't need all the explanation of what's going on necessarily, They just want to make it practical for their lives. And then I've got a book that's more mainstream that you can just put on your coffee table and show to anyone, and it's for left brain thinkers called Quantum Jumps, and that's a really great book about the same topic. So I've been covering the same material

lots of different ways. And then my newest book is the one we've been talking about the Mandela Effect in its Society Awakening from Me to Wi, and it goes into Carl Jung and Philip K. Dick and what they experienced. Several of the modern day researchers, including Mary Rose Barrington that I never met and didn't know about, but he had a whole, like a language to describe this whole phenomenon of things appearing and disappearing. And I heard about

it through Jeffrey Mitchelove when he interviewed me. I thought, Wow, where'd she come from? But so she's got a book about just one of those things, John. But I cover all this in my book. I do the best I can with Mandela Effect in its society to be completely current with everything I currently know. So it did take many years to write that book, but I also intend it to be excellent for experienced people as well as kind of a textbook to cover the history of the

science some of my personal experiences with it. And then where is it going? Which to me is human expansion, human development. What you're doing with the classes that you're teaching for kids is exactly it, and it's recognizing that we have so much untapped potential and as we learn more about what's possible, it starts opening up and we can guide the future by asking the questions we most wish to live the answers, which is what I love

about that how good can it get? Rather than like, oh, this went wrong, that went wrong, these bad things coming throes, what next? So the opposite of that would be how good can it get? And it's really challenging reality, like Okay, things look kind of grim, but how good can it get? Or things look really good? How good can it get?

Just needing to know it? And that's the work of I want to credit John Archibald Wheeler because he's the one that talked about that participatory universe, and he was a colleague of Albert Einstein, and he's the reason that I'm focusing on the question aspect because when you ask nature a question, nature answers. So let's ask good questions even with just our thoughts, even if you think, well, I'm just thinking it to myself. Yeah, Remember everybody hears you.

Everybody's psychic, whole universe is listening. So ask good questions, and that way it's going to be a great future for.

good way, very going higher and higher. So it goes into gratitude and reverence and ecstasy and happiness and just feeling like, Wow, what a magical place and time to be alive, and how grateful I am to be here. So so that is what the subconscious responds to. It's pretty wide open, and I do that on purpose. So otherwise I see a lot of people that paint themselves into corners without meaning to, Like they're asking for just so much, but they could have had so much more.

They could have had good health too, and good relationships while they're at it, not just when a career.

you can look it up. It's spelled differently than it sounds. It's seal a contas the pronunciation it's spelled see. Oh here it is there? Okay that one?

a person. They live sixty years and they thrive about two thousand, three hundred feet below the surface of the ocean, and so they look very primitive, and they were thought to go. They thought they're gone. They were extinct sixty five million years ago, kind of like along with the dinosaurs kind of a thing because these are dinosaur fish.

But then when they were found in South Africa and then later in Indonesia, it's like they just keep finding more of them, like they're not only not extinct, they seem to be thriving, Like what how is that possible? And it's not just the silicont So I have a whole section in the book with animals and plants that keep popping up like we're here, and some of them have been gone tens of thousands of years, others have

been done millions of years. And this was also predicted by the Hopie you know when if you read about their ancient their oral traditions, they said, you know, it's kind of like the Blue Star Kachina. It's like the bridge time things, kind of like you know, you're entering the fifth world when plants and animals that have been long gone long are coming back and they are so it's it's another one. And then some of the indigenous people say, when the white buffalo is born, you're in

that bridge time. Well that happened Buffalo, Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

very old, kind of like ancient Sumerian or something. But it's flying around in the air like a little ufo, like a drone, but with no means to propel it. And then it kept getting its mass was changing as it arrived in Mexico.