Suzanne Clark, U.S. Chamber of Commerce | A Time for Choosing

Brody: Tom Donahue became one of the most legendary trade association heads in Washington. How do you fill those shoes? Suzanne: You don't. He would say, "You know, Suz, you got to get your own shtick. You can't be me." And it's true. You can't follow a legend and act like him. So I try to keep the best of what I learned from him and then change the things that the modern world requires. Announcer: Behind every major policy decision, every corporate strategy, every Washington power play are the insiders shaping the game and the new rules to win it. The Deciders with Pulitzer Prize winning journalist Brody Mullins and veteran DC strategist, Lisa Camuso Miller. Lisa: Welcome to The Deciders, where we talk to the insiders rewriting the playbook for effective advocacy in Washington, DC. Today we're talking to Suzanne Clark, who is the president and CEO of the United States Chamber of Commerce, the largest business lobby in America. Suzanne, welcome to the Deciders. Thank you for having me. Brody: Suzanne, you just passed the five-year mark as CEO and have signed on to serve another five-year contract. You have one of the most sought after jobs in Washington, probably one of the hardest jobs in Washington, yet you've never been sort of profiled, ever been out there on an in-depth interview on television. So we're really looking forward to this. Let's start with the last five years. What did you set out to do when you started five years ago? What have you accomplished and what would you like to do more of? Suzanne: Thank you for that. It is fun to have a moment to actually reflect, right? I think what I set out to do was modernize the chamber while holding really firmly onto its roots. And I'm proud of the work that we've done to do that, everything from the first ever renovation of the hundred-year-old building, the technology upgrades, the team upgrades, but really focusing on the impact and the leadership and the growth. And so we just want to do more of that, keep it going. Lisa: Suzanne, you ran the National Journal Group, Potomac Research. You were a business executive before you ever ran a trade association. Will you help us understand better how that informs how you lead today? Suzanne: It's a great question, and I think there's probably two answers to it. One, because I spent time as a small business owner, the empathy I have for small businesses, but even big businesses, what's it like to be the CEO, to go to bed at night with that pressure that really only CEOs feel for your employees, for your shareholders, for your investors, for your customers, for your community? So I think it helps me lead with a lot of empathy for that. And also, it gives me a relentless focus on the customer. Brody: I want to ask you about filling Tom Donahue's shoes, but first you began your career by answering Tom Donahue's phone. I did. Tell us about that. Suzanne: I did. I went to work at the American Trucking Associations because they had tuition reimbursement. I mean, I'd like to say it was a passion for trucking, which I did develop, but it didn't start that way. It was really about tuition reimbursement. I learned so much at ATA about that industry, about infrastructure, about the movement of goods, but also just what trade association work was like. I never would've thought that that would be my career, but that's how it started. Brody: And later, Tom Donahue became one of the most legendary trade association heads in Washington. How do you fill those shoes? Suzanne: You don't. In two ways, you don't. One, there's a great Donahue-ism. There are so many Donohue-isms, but one of them he would say, "You know, Suz, you got to get your own shtick. I got a stick. You got to get your own stick. You can't be me." And it's true. You can't follow a legend and act like him. I also think times have changed. CEOs are different now. Companies are run differently. Mediums, media has changed. And so it's not just not filling his shoes and having a different shtick. It's also that the times are really different and require a different kind of leadership. So I try to keep the best of what I learned from him and preserve it and honor it and then change the things that the modern world requires. Brody: Another Donahue-ism, he used to say he had to raise a million dollars a day just to keep the lights on. How do you do that while also focusing on your mission in DC? Suzanne: That is a Donahue-ism. He had a sign on his desk that said, "Show me the money." And he took over a time and the chamber really had become almost bankrupt and he had to do a big turnaround. So we had to really focus on going out there and raising money before he had created the credibility. So it was kind of a bet on me situation. Luckily, the chamber's no longer in that situation. And so we can focus on ROI. We can focus on impact. We had the largest revenue year in history last year. We do that more by focusing on listening to the customer and then proving value in what they really need. Brody: So you said last year was the largest revenue increase. What do you think accounted for that? I mean, there's so many attacks coming from Washington these days on business. In fact, I think you guys did a survey three or four years ago saying the amount of political risk coming from Washington is higher than ever before. Why do you think so many companies are now coming to the chamber to help defend them? Suzanne: Oh, look, I think it's a myriad of things. I think that you've seen the study we did of the S&P 500 where we looked at every risk a company identifies on their 10K. And over the course of a decade, most of them remain static, but one increased by 30% and it was political risk. And it's not just Washington, it's the states, it's Brussels, it's just the macro environment. And so increasingly, companies hedge against every other kind of risk. How would they not hedge against this risk? Brody: Every foreign leader who comes to the United States first goes to the White House and then they head over to your office to speak with you and your team. What is your role in promoting the interest of US corporations overseas? Suzanne: I'm so glad that you're asking me this question because I think a lot of times people think only about DC when they think about trade associations, but the truth is a number of us have robust global operations. We have 80 full-time people who work in international. We run 20 bilateral business councils and the role the chamber plays is really twofold. One, advocating in other countries for better market access, for fairer trade, for more trade, for reduction of barriers to entry. We also are trying to increase FDI here, make investment easier here, and help American exporters into those markets. And to give you a great recent example, when the Indonesian president was just here, he came across the park and the time that he was at the chamber, American companies signed $40 billion in export deals in a couple of hours. Now that took years of relationship building and understanding the market, but that's the kind of work that we can do for American companies that I think is unique. Brody: After the US military action in Venezuela, the opposition leader came to the United States and met with you. What did you talk about? Suzanne: An important piece of the work we do is helping countries that are coming out of socialism start to think about what would help free enterprise thrive in their country. So she was here really to learn, "Were I to run my country again? What would it take to get American free enterprise in there?" I'll give you another example. We have a program in our foundation that actually trains judges around the world. We've trained some of the Ukrainian Supreme Court, for example, because when that war is over, for private investment to go back in, they've got to have governance and transparency and rule of law. And these things take actual work. Lisa: We're going to have more with Suzanne Clark right after the break. Brody: Welcome back to The Deciders with Suzanne Clark. Lisa: Suzanne, one of the biggest themes in Washington is America's 250th this year. You at the chamber are putting out a big forward-looking message called the State of American Business. Will you talk to me a little bit about how that process is coming together, what's happening there, and what it is you're doing to be part of this moment? Suzanne: Every year we run a State of American business event and we try to reduce the state of American business to one word. And this year, our word was fearless. The state of American business has to be fearless. And what we talked about was how this year feels like a time for choosing. It feels like 1976 again in that way. If you think about 1976 was a time of inflation and slow growth and government wanted to have wage controls and price controls and micromanage the economy. And then the American people decided they were going to elect a series of people who believed in free enterprise and ushered in the right public policy that brought us 50 years of tremendous growth. And they said, "We're going to have lower taxes. We're going to have a stable regulatory environment. We're going to have a great trade environment. And look what it did for families, for workers, for communities." Now, people are feeling economic pain again, and it drives them to extreme solutions on both the left and the right. And it has people flirting with ideas that we thought we had put to bed in the 70s, right? And so it feels like a time for choosing again. And we know what free enterprise and free markets do for society, for our country, for families, and we want to make that pointed case across the country. Brody: You've told me for years that the goal of the chamber is to build a bipartisan pro-business center. Is that possible to do in Washington these days? Suzanne: I don't know, Brody. What I think is that given that almost every election is a swing election, and given that then when the election settled, the margins are so tight. You don't get anything done with one party anymore. It isn't the same group of elected officials that you can count on to drive your whole agenda forward. Every time there's a new issue, it's a new coalition. And so I think having friends on both sides of the aisle, people who believe in business and job growth on both sides of the aisle is really important. Brody: What's the best thing that companies can do or associations can do to deal with that increased risk from Washington that looks like it's here to stay? Suzanne: And it's not just from Washington, is it? I mean, we've got the Brussels impact and you have the California impact, increasingly states, and then it's not just politics. In the five years that I've been CEO, we've had a once in a lifetime pandemic. We've had 40 year historic high inflation, which definitionally means no CEO's ever been in that economic market before. We've had this war now in Iran. I mean, it's just a constant supply chain shock and a constant reordering of thinking, look at AI and the uncertainty and complexity and opportunity that that's producing. So I think what you're seeing in companies and in leadership is a real need to be agile, to be curious, to be constantly learning, and just to expect that we live in a black swan world. Most CEOs would love to have a year of stability, a year of certainty, and that's just not the environment that we're living in. So I think the specific answer to your question is constantly learning, constantly listening, the ability to be agile and the ability to build trusting relationships with people who aren't like you and don't always agree with you. Lisa: Suzanne, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but what I'm hearing is that in order to be fearless in 2026, US companies and those who want to emulate US corporate and economic stability need to be true to their values and know where they come from. Suzanne: I think that's right and know their lane. What's appropriate for you? Where is it appropriate for you to act and where isn't it? I think at the US Chamber, we don't put out a lot of thoughts and prayer statements. Do we have expertise? Is this something we could take action on? Is there something we could actually do and try to stay in our lane and encourage companies and government to stay in their lane? Lisa: I think that's good counsel. Brody: We'll have more from Suzanne Clark after the break. Lisa: Welcome back to The Deciders. We're with Suzanne Clark. Brody: Donald Trump has been consolidating power in the White House, taking power from Congress and even his own administration and pulling into the White House by acting through executive order. Is that a good or a bad thing for corporations? Suzanne: Look, I think the executive order generally is a bad thing for corporations. Now, the president has had some executive orders we really like. I don't mean that individual executive orders can't be great for business, but at the end of the day, when President Obama says, "I've got a pen and a phone and that's how I'm going to govern." And then the next president comes in and overturns all of that. And then the next president comes in and overturns all of that. Nobody can make a plan, right? So at the end of the day, we really want durable legislation because then a company can make a plan. This isn't a political comment. It's a business comment. How can I make a five-year plan knowing it's going to bridge two presidencies if we are now governing by executive order? Brody: Do you think this is the new normal though? I mean, do you think this will go back? I mean, how will things go back to normal? How will Congress regain its authority? Suzanne: Well, Congress needs to do their job, right? I think some of these executive orders come from the place that Congress isn't doing what they're supposed to be doing. And so we need Congress to actually legislate. We need Congress to actually work. And I think that's a really important demand that all constituents should be making. Lisa: The Chamber sued the Trump administration over their proposal for a $100,000 fee on visas for high skilled workers. That's a rare thing for the chamber to sue a Republican administration. Can you talk us through what went into that decision? Suzanne: One of the tools in our toolbox is always the courts. When we think the government has gotten outside of its statutory lane, we like to get government back in it. So for example, we sued the Biden administration 21 times for regulatory overreach. We sued the first Trump administration three times over some immigration issues primarily. We sued the Bush administration seven times. It's one of the tactics that we use to try to keep government overreach down and to keep government in their lane. Particularly on H1Bs, there's a lot of polling data and a lot of research that shows what getting highly skilled immigrants into this country do for communities, due for local wages, due for companies. The statutory language says that the government can charge a fee commensurate with running the program. That's not $100,000, right? So I think we will prevail in this case. So we do tend to do it less when the regulatory environment is better, but there will still be regulations or fees that we think are onerous to the 3% growth agenda we have, and then we use that tactic. Brody: Democrats are expected to win the House this year. What does that mean for the next two years for you guys? Suzanne: I don't know. My crystal ball is really murky, right? I fear that what it means is just further gridlock and political grandstanding and theater as opposed to the really important work that their constituents need them to do. I mean, what I'm finding fascinating is it feels clear to me that the voters keep saying it's the economy stupid and people win elections and talk and do everything else. And so I think that's why we keep seeing these big swings. So I wish that we could educate lawmakers better and get them focused earlier on what their constituents really want. And I think the angry algorithm that drives so much of social media and attention and small dollar fundraising is not helping this. So how do we help serious people get serious credit for doing serious work? Lisa: Suzanne, you have yourself a huge team at the chamber. You're also raising adult humans. What kind of counsel do you give to young people, whether it's in your own family or people that are coming up in their careers about what the workforce is going to look like for the future? Suzanne: Well, again, I have a really murky crystal ball, but I would say this, I never had a career plan. I think that made it easier for me. I think people when they're really young who think they know exactly what they want to do are less prepared for disruptions. So I think the question for my daughter, for the spring interns I talked to yesterday, it's how can you develop as much of a learning mindset as you can so that you're prepared for disruption? What kind of mental and emotional resilience do you have for the failure that will definitely come? We've all failed, we've all screwed up. I have a long list of my mistakes, but also a long list of what I learned from them. So how are you a lifelong learner, a curious person? And I think right now, how are you a human person? Can you look people in the eyes? Do you have social skills? Can you create relationships and trust that matters? Are you a discerning news consumer? Can you figure out what's a real source? I'm encouraging people to pay for news. I think when we decided that all news should be free, we paid for that in a really dear way. So be a discerning news consumer, be social, be someone that people like to be around and be curious and be a learner and be ready for disruption and failure. Lisa: Where do you get your own counsel and guidance as you lead today? Suzanne: That's such a good question. I sit in that office sometimes and I look over at the White House and I think, "What was the man in this office thinking during the Great Depression or World War II?" And so that grounds me in every generation thinks it's living through the most complexity or the hardest time. And so remembering other times in history that business thrived and got through and the country got through is really helpful to me and helps me be optimistic, which I'm a firm believer optimism is a leadership necessity, right? It's very hard to follow a pessimist. One of the greatest parts of the job is that I can pick up the phone and talk to almost anyone. So the question is just being curious enough and not believing you know everything. And so just getting out there and asking a lot of questions of a lot of people. Brody: Suzanne, we ask every decider the same three questions. The first one is, what's a decision in the past year that you're especially proud of? Suzanne: Something we don't talk about enough is that all trade associations have volunteer leadership. You got to recruit a volunteer leader who will put their reputation, their time, their treasure, their company's brand next to yours for a period of time. And that's hard in these really fraught times, right? So in the last year, and we've always had really good luck with the right chairman at the right time. We had a really good chairman, Mark or Dan, who knew how to do CEO transitions when we were going through a CEO transition. And then in June, Ross Pro Jr. became our chairman and he has such a sophisticated political mind. He has such good political instincts and a global mind and a global understanding of business that the best decision we made in the last year was certainly Ross Pro Jr. becoming our chairman. Lisa: Suzanne, what would you say was a decision you wish you could do over or do differently? Suzanne: I wish I had hired Rodney Davis before I did. I mean, I'm half kidding, but his ability to remake the team, inspire the team that was already there, find the gold that was there and mine it and polish it and make it better, bring in a whole bunch of new talent and just change the way we approach the Hill has really benefited the US Chamber and made us better and smarter and I wish I had done it earlier. Brody: What's something that no one in Washington is talking about but should be? Suzanne: Not enough people are focused on the trial bar. I mean, at the end of the day, these frivolous lawsuits clog our courts, they keep the real victims out of court, cost the American household, the average American household $4,200 a year, and we don't really know who's funding these. There's just a lot of dark of night trial lawyer activity that's expensive, that drives the cost of insurance up. Florida made some legal reform efforts and the cost of insurance almost immediately went down in the state of Florida. So we need to shine the light on the fact that there is a bad guy out there that's costing American families in American business and American innovation. And there are things specifically we could do about it and we're working hard. Brody: Another sign of the world turning upside down is the fact that so many Republicans or some Republicans are supporting the trial bar. Lisa: Suzanne, this was a fascinating conversation. Thank you so much for joining us. Suzanne: Thank you. Brody: Thanks for joining us. We'll be back with The Deciders in a few minutes. Lisa: Welcome back to The Deciders. That was Suzanne Clark from the US Chamber. Brody, what did you think? Brody: We talked a lot about the parallels between the 1970s and now for the threats that businesses are facing. And I thought it was remarkable that at a time when there's so much going on for business, that we're not talking about business lobbying against tariffs or for tax increases or for immigration. She was talking about protecting the system, the whole system. And that's exactly where we were in the 1970s when we were trying to protect the capitalistic system and just a stunning point in the history of American business. Lisa: I loved that she talked about how their theme for the year in the year of America's 250th birthday, if you will, was to be fearless at a time when US businesses are not probably feeling oh so fearless. So it's interesting and I think inspirational to me that they're offering that kind of counsel and advice and likely backing it up with some smart programs that'll give people that confidence in this year. Brody: Thanks for joining us on The Deciders. We'll see you next week. Announcer: The Deciders is hosted by Brody Mullins and Lisa Camuso Miller and produced by Dave Tobey. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Find more online at deciders.show and follow the deciders on YouTube, LinkedIn and X.