Ken Spain, Narrative Strategies | 2026 Will Be Risky Business

BRODY: One of the things you say in your recent poll is silence equals surrender. What does that mean? KEN: There is this expectation. If you are being called out as a company, to engage. If you are engaging, you better be as authentic about it as possible. Silence becomes relatively dangerous in this environment. ──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── [ANNCR INTRO] LISA: Welcome to the deciders, where we're talking to the decision makers, rewriting the playbook for effective advocacy in Washington, D.C. today. BRODY: On the desires we have. Ken Spain, the founder and CEO of Narrative Strategies. Ken is going to talk about the new political risks facing his clients and corporate America. LISA: Well, Ken, thanks for being with us today. I'd like to start from the beginning. Tell us how in the world this a guy from Southern California make it to Washington? KEN: Well, first of all, thank you for having me. It's good to be back with two longtime friends. I so grew up in Whittier, California. Made my way to UC Santa Barbara. There wasn't really a big, political path for being a Republican in California. So I made my way to D.C. via, political campaigns. It was it was a great run working in politics, where I got to meet you guys and, really, then, you know, found my way, working in, on behalf of businesses and, and consulting, later on down the road. BRODY: I love your also political origin story about how you got started in the, political risk area, which came in Mitt Romney's campaign. Can you tell us about that? Where were you? What happened? And, yeah, what did you learn? KEN: Look, at the end of 2010, we had won back the majority. And Ken Mehlman, who had been the RNC chairman, had had gone on to, work in private equity. Actually, he was working at KKR. Had reached out to me afterward and said, look, I'm on the board of this organization. It's a trade association that represents private equity firms. And I he's like, I think Mitt Romney is going to be the nominee. I think he's going to drag the industry through the mud, because he comes from Bain Capital, and we need someone who's going to help the industry tell its story. It's at the time, you know, private equity was relatively unknown. You know, the entire industry itself was in terms of assets under management, was the size of one of the big banks. You know, today it's a $6 trillion industry. It was really interesting because I got to help the industry kind of tell its story, learn to talk about itself, go through a lot of message testing and put together a campaign to help tell a story. LISA: That training is probably what informs your work today better than just about anything else. You work with CEOs and you work with members of high, high members of industry. How do you counsel them? They're not running for office, but they are really under the same microscope as many that are. Yeah. Tell me a little bit about how that counsel works for you today, Ken. KEN: Yeah. You know, it's a great question. I remember, you know, after after I left the, what was then called the private equity counsel, it's now the American Investment Council. I, you know, I went to Koch Industries and, you know, they liked me because they were at the time really going through it. And they said, you know, look, you kind of have this background where you help companies or and individuals who, you know, find themselves in the political crosshairs, you know, maybe you can kind of help us. We're going through this repositioning. You know, we're thinking about rebranding, and putting together a big reputation campaign. And that was really exciting to me. And we went through it and, you know, but every day was this sort of perpetual crisis where you're trying to help a company, you know, play this game of whack a mole, you know, at the same time trying to turn this tanker with its reputation. But I remember after it was like all over, I remember thinking to myself like, oh, you know, like, what a unique skill set, you know, to be able to help companies, you know, and who find themselves kind of getting crosswise in politics. But, you know, how often am I going to be able to use this skill set? And because really, at the time, companies weren't really getting attacked in politics. And now, you know, you kind of fast forward today and it's this is really nearly, you know, a regular occurrence. BRODY: You know, it it strikes me that there's more and more political risk coming from Washington than ever before, at a time when, due to the rise of populism on the right and progressive on the left, the old political playbook is not working right, which is really what this show is about and why we had have you on, Ken, is that I consider you to be we consider to be the number one expert in navigating that political risk. We want to talk about your poll numbers later. One of the things you say in your recent poll is silence equals surrender. What does that mean? KEN: A few years ago, there was like this pressure on companies to really engage in talk about social issues. Right. And then people got a little bit tired of that, like, hey, maybe you're talking a little bit too much about issues. And so there was there's really been this push in the last couple of years for companies really to kind of get back to the basics and maybe talk about issues that are really sort of core to your business. At the same time, there is this expectation, if you are being called out as a company to engage, and if you are if you are engaging, you better be as authentic about it as possible. And if you are going to engage publicly or from an advocacy standpoint, how are you doing? So, you know, if you're going to come to Washington and you're going to advocate for something, are you doing so in a way that, you know, is aimed at trying to appeal to the president, but maybe alienates your employee base? Or maybe you're also trying to simultaneously get something done in the state of California that can potentially alienate Gavin Newsom. So there's all of these competing constituencies that you have to navigate. And oftentimes, like sometimes companies will, you know, say, you know what? Maybe maybe it's just better to just keep our heads down, or maybe it's better to just be silent. The answer is like, no, you have to understand all of your audiences and you know, there's a process for that. You have to you have to undergo it. And some companies don't want to do that or some CEOs aren't willing to do it. But unless you have an understanding of all of your audiences and understanding how your messages resonate with them and how you develop a message that actually is going to be relatively consistent and authentic to your reputation and brand. You know, silence, you know, is becomes relatively dangerous in this environment. LISA: Welcome back to The deciders. Talk to me a little bit today about narrative and the work that you do there at your firm. KEN: Start a narrative. About six years ago. There's now over 100 of us, and it's hard to believe, which brings a new opportunities and new challenges every day as a, as a manager. But it it's been phenomenal. And, so we, office in New York, office in Florida, DC, have a few folks scattered around the country. But we're very lucky, very fortunate. We have a great team and we get to do really interesting, exciting work on behalf of some of the biggest companies and industries. LISA: You had just recently made mention to it, some polling that you've done about business and how how the shift has happened as it relates to public affairs. And talk to me a little bit about what it is you found in that survey. Research. KEN: We saw this, you know, growing, you know, skepticism of business, but anger, you know, toward, you know, elites in America, however you wanted to. Finally, you know, when we asked Americans, 60% of people can think of a business being brought into the political discussion on a monthly basis, 40% on a weekly basis, and 25% of Americans can think of a of a company being called out by a politician daily. So when you think about it, a business is being called out in politics is now a daily basis. So this thing that I thought was like a unique skill set, you know, I don't know, ten years ago is now this daily occurrence. And that's why we say in 2026 business is going to be on the ballot. We see this as a bipartisan affair where both Republicans and Democrats are going to be name checking businesses on a near daily basis for the foreseeable future. BRODY: So there's so much to unpack there. And in your poll, but it makes you realize or recall, an interview that I did with JD Vance before he was being considered for VP released before I knew he was being a there would be where he said economic consolidation is as bad or worse than government consolidation. Number one thing a Republicans stood for for our entire lifetime is the protection of individual liberty. And that has meant keeping big government off your back. That's like the number one thing that Republicans believe in on any issue. But now it's also keeping some of these big companies off your back. At least that's what JD Vance thinks and the populists think, and that Trump thinks that it really shows how the political parties it, have been, you know, really inverting at this point in your survey, one of the things I found fascinating was 3% of respondents said that companies should focus on delivering returns for shareholders, just 3%. How do you square that with the goals of, your C through clients who are obviously are trying to maximize, return to shareholders? KEN: We'll look first to your first point really quick about JD Vance. I think like, look, we've actually really seen that play out with like in Trump 2.0 with with how things are going kind of at the FTC or the or the antitrust division at DOJ. Trump is no fool like he sees where the polling is, and he sees that there is a political benefit to holding companies, you know, quote unquote, accountable, right, or calling them out. And there's no better place to call out companies name by name by name than the FTC. Right? BRODY: So about three years ago, I got an invitation from the federal society. The federal side has an annual conference in DC, and Lina Khan was going to be the keynote speaker at all. Like, why is Lena Khan showing up to the federal society and what is this going to look like? And she got out there and started talking about how markets are broken and standing up for the little guy and too much consolidation. And and people stood up and give her, gave her a round of applause. And I was like, what is going on in this world? And afterwards people came up and like took selfies with her and want her autograph. And I was like, am I the right conference? Like, I miss something here. But that was kind of one of moments that I realized that, that the Republicans are really changing, or at least the populist side on antitrust issues. They increasingly Republicans, not the George Bush Republicans, but the the, Donald Trump Republicans think that so many companies and industries have gotten too big and too influential and have too much, influence over our society, government, economy. It's really an amazing change. And that's what this survey brings out. LISA: Let me ask you a question, though. How does that square with the narrative to use it? How does that square with the way that media is talking about billionaires and the tax breaks are only for, those? That doesn't seem to me to go together. So you're. BRODY: Exactly right. The way I see this is and can love your thoughts. The Republican Party is in the middle of a revolution. There's a change. And it's not like you flip a light switch and you move from one side of you are this constant battle. So I feel like there's this evolution. The tax bill is another great example. So I keep talking about this theory of the Republican Party's changing. And then you look at the tax bill and like oh, that doesn't fit my argument. But in this evolution in the Republican Party, the older, more senior Republicans on Capitol Hill are still the Ronald Reagan George Bush types, as the younger populist are coming in as Rob Portman leaves, a JD Vance comes in, and in the tax bill because the seniority system, the people that will ultimately write the bill are the more senior, Republican crowd. So there was a moment in the tax bill when, The New York Times wrote a front page story saying that Republicans were considering adding a billionaires tax. And they quoted the speaker of the House, Johnson, who said, yeah, everything's on the table. And I thought, no, it's not. You're a Republican. Like tax increase on individuals are not on the table if you're a Republican. Now, ultimately, that didn't happen. But I feel like there is the populist are pushing these these proposals that are more anti corporate and more senior, leaders are pushing those back. I mean, how do you see things? KEN: No, I think that's absolutely right. I think that there's, you know, the vestiges of the, of the old Republican Party still remain intact. Yeah. Like you know Crapo who's still like the finance chairman, who obviously had a great deal of say in the bill. But I also think on top of that, you had industry that did a very good job of positioning a lot of the tax breaks that they wanted. You know, you know, as you know, MAGA priorities, right. You know, so I think that's also really important to remember that if you, you know, position your, your issues or your industry, you know, in the right way, you know, you can there is a there is a story to tell, as we always say it, narrative, the best story wins, right? It's not just about hiring the right lobbyist. Lobbying is important, but, you know, hiring the right lobbyist, you know, was, was effective. Then PBS would have lost millions, or Harvard still wouldn't be in a battle with the president. Right. The best story, having a compelling story, is critically important. BRODY: Yeah. So I just feel like this moment in Washington political history is the most fascinating of our lifetimes because that, like, both political parties are going undergoing revolution at the same time, and we don't know where each one of them are going to go. I think that the Republicans will continue to be populist. I don't think they're going to revert back, but they could. What is your take on how the Republican Party is changing, or do you think I'll go back? LISA: No. We are moving through a process here and we will. Who knows where we land, right? Because there are so many, places that we could land. And maybe we're just on a journey, right? We could just be on an evolution journey. But you can made mention of, the change in political voices that are now in this space. We have Trump that sort of talks about a lot of these different things. We've had a big swing in New York City. Yes. I'm curious about your point of view there. KEN: Yeah. Look, Mamdani is going to be, you know, many respects, the Democratic Trump. And I mean, I think even in, Bannon, who, you know, Trump, the Trump ally, did a recent interview, I think, in Politico who said, like, look, you know, Republicans should actually be nervous, nervous about Mamdani. And I think it's because Mamdani has this sort of populist, you know, progressive energy behind him. And one of the things that he has done is, you know, call out businesses by name, over the course of his elections, Starbucks, Walgreens, Amazon, Uber, to just name a few that he, discussed in that, and that he protested. He, he went in protest, had protested some of these companies in person, during, during his campaign. And I think, like, what you're going to see is more of what he's doing, because that's just where the Democratic base is. A lot of the Democratic base is very angry with companies who cut deals with Trump. And you're starting to see some of the, the, the Democratic House members say, like, hey, look, if we win back the House and we have jowls, we're dragging up some of these companies and we're going to make them answer, and we're going to have them explain some of these deals that they that they made. So I just think that there's so much energy on that side as well, that this is now going to become a bipartisan affair over the, over the coming years. This is not just a Trump phenomenon. We're not going back. This is just going to continue to ratchet up where we start seeing that, that both parties just see too much political benefit to calling out companies and CEOs in the coming years, which I think is, you know, in my opinion, not something that I think is terribly productive, but it's something that I think you're going to just see continue to ratchet up. BRODY: And that goes exactly to your other question, your poll, that it finds that your views of capitalism are losing steam even among Republicans. So in the Democratic Party, 52% of Democrats have a favorable view of socialism, and only 45% have a favorable view of capitalism, which is crazy. And then maybe just as crazy, 15% of Republicans have a favorable view of socialism. I don't know how you can be a socialist Republican. But take us through those numbers. What what struck you? KEN: Well, I think, like, there's this combination of things that are at play here and I think speaks to kind of like why we're even at this stage that we are today with this growing skepticism of business and why people are why there is even a political benefit for politicians to to call out businesses today. Right? Number one, is this growing skepticism of just the capitalist system. Part of it is, I think, increase costs for people. People just continue to see costs, go up and up and up, whether it's inflation or a variety of other factors, they feel like they can't get caught up for whatever reason. The other thing is, I and I think that a lot of people look at AI and they say, boy, this is like some significant disruption in my life. And yeah, like, sure, there's maybe some personal benefit here, but it could potentially take my job. It's going to disrupt. It could disrupt my company, the industry that I'm in. What does this potentially mean for me? What does this mean for my kids. And so there's this great deal of uncertainty right now just in the world and in politics in general. And people just are very, very nervous. And so as a result, you know, they're looking at companies and they don't really feel that companies are looking out for their best interests. And as a result, like they're looking to politicians to kind of keep those companies on their toes in. BRODY: Both of the parties. KEN: Correct. LISA: Can it used to be that the CEO would see political risk and counselors like us would say, join your trade association. That's really changed. Now tell me a little bit about what the playbook is today in those circumstances. KEN: Well, I think that's a great question. And I think that, you know, joining a trade association, certainly important have lots of trade associations as clients are. Sure. But you know, I think like one of the biggest things that people don't realize today is that the overwhelming majority of the time is that an industry pulls far worse than an individual company. LISA: There's a place for both. There's a place for the CEO and for the industry. But most specifically, to me, there's a time right now where both have to be active in order for the best possible outcome for their issues. KEN: We are entering into an era where it is truly incumbent upon the company and the CEO to engage at a level that is relatively unprecedented. So I would just say that, you know, protecting a company's license to operate is really incumbent upon the communications team, the government affairs team, the CEO himself, oftentimes, or herself. Are you engaging political stakeholders or are you applying a political lens to everything? Because I you know, at some point your number is going to be called right, whether you like it or not. I would take Tylenol, for instance. You know, that's a great example of a company that found itself in the political spotlight after doing relatively nothing to earn themselves that moment. Whether or not you are engaging Washington or looking to tell your story, at some point you might find yourself an unwilling actor in Washington or on the political stage. And so being prepared and ceding your story in a way that allows you to be most effective is is really, really important. You know, for for every company to start thinking about at this moment. BRODY: Welcome back to the deciders with campaign. In every episode, we ask our guests three questions. LISA: Ken, what's the one decision you've made in the last year that you're especially proud of? KEN: You know, at narrative, I think we're really proud of, like, the fact that we've invested in our insights, practices who are pulling our survey research practice because I think clients are really starved to understand what is happening in and in America just writ large. We're at this moment where the where the political parties are really changing. And that means, like American's views on things are really changing. Understanding where people are at this, at this juncture, is really, really hard and it's not easy. And so we find that our clients are just really starved for that kind of information and to understand where people's minds are on things. BRODY: And what's the one decision you like, do over what's what's your mulligan? KEN: You know, I don't know if I'd say it's like, a decision per se, but I would say, like, in terms of, you know, going into this past year, you know, we knew that Trump would be, you know, aggressive on a number of fronts, particularly on trade, maybe. I would say I think what I would say is like, were we what I didn't see coming is probably just like how little Congress would be engaged in that process. And just the the consolidation that we've seen within the administration and, and also the use of emergency authority, you know, when you're trying to anticipate things and trying to put plans together, a scenario plan, I think that was probably, you know, a bit of a mess for us. BRODY: What's the biggest thing that people aren't thinking about that they should be? KEN: Well, I think that, you know, just like so many companies are paying attention to like what Trump has been doing and what Republicans have been doing when it comes to calling out businesses by name. I think what we've saw in New York, with the mayor's race is probably a template for what we are going to see coming out of Democrats in the in the months and years to come. You know, as we say in 2026, business is going to be on the ballot. We have barely started to see the beginnings of it on the left, and we will start to see it continue to ratchet up over the course of the next three years. BRODY: Ken, thanks for being on the deciders. KEN: Thank you guys so much for having me. Thank you all. So great to see you guys again. As always. LISA: It's about what's happening on this end. BRODY: That was Ken Spain from Narrative Strategies on the decider is Lisa what do you think? LISA: I love how they've figured out Ken and his team have figured out how to capture what's happening right now in communications, what's happening? How do they advise their CEOs and their leadership, of their clients, to navigate these times in a way that's constantly evolving? So they have those insights in-house. They're monitoring it in real time, and they're giving good advice because, you know, the landscape changes every single day. BRODY: Yeah. You know, one of the things that I was thinking about while listening to Ken was how both political parties are changing, how I feel like both political parties are increasingly trying to cater to the little guy. And if that continues to happen, particularly in the next presidential election and primaries, what does that mean for corporate America, where in the last 50 years, companies have had a pretty good bipartisan, pro-business center in Washington on tax trade regulation? What if both sides are playing for the little guy? What does that mean for Washington? LISA: I think that's the race that that we're going to watch right over the course of the next couple of years. Well, thanks again for joining us. This is the deciders. If you'd like more information that you'd like to follow along, please find us everywhere you listen to podcasts. And in fact, if you want to see more content or more insights, you can find us on LinkedIn. Thanks so much. [ANNCR OUTRO]