This is the Decarbonisation Dialogue, a podcast from Salix. Welcome to the Decarbonisation Dialogue, delivering on climate change, our collective challenge. I'm Hannah Walker, and I believe that the best way to communicate a message is by being passionate about what you are talking about. Through that passion, I believe that you take people with you and create action using your influence to make change and make a difference. Our task today is to get all of us to net zero.
And today, I'm fortunate enough to have Ian Rodger here with me for our podcast. And Ian is Director of Public Sector Decarbonisation at Salix. So fantastic. And thank you for your time, Ian. Thank you very much for having me. I would like to talk a little bit about your career. How did you get here? And I know that you've had a very successful career with the Army over the last 20 years. And then you've then shifted into business, which has brought you to Salix. So can you tell
me a little bit about your background? So I was an engineering graduate. I did a master's at Exeter University in electronic engineering. And from there, I joined the army. I spent most of my time in the army in telecommunications and strategy. And I was really fortunate. I got to travel all over the world. And I did things and met people in places that you would. No other job would ever get you close to. And it was absolutely fascinating. And then I did that for 18 years.
And then for various reasons, mostly to do with spending more time with my family, I decided it was time for a change. And so I then went to work for Barclays. I did a number of jobs in Barclays, but I ended up... in the business banking section of Barclays, which supports the small business customers. And my particular job there was looking after all sorts of challenging issues that didn't have a natural home within the bank. So everything from rolling out GDPR
to historic complaints. And one of the last things that I did while I was there was to develop a strategy for Barclays to support its small business customers. in the transition to a net zero economy, because we could see the changes that were happening already in the British economy and in the world economy. And we could see the future changes that were likely. And it was apparent to us that a lot of small businesses were going to really struggle with that transition unless we put in
place some support mechanisms to do that. So that was one of the last things I did. And through that, I was lucky enough to meet a number of people, one of whom was Theresa Graham, who was the chair or previous chair of Salix. And she invited me to apply for this job. And here I am today. And I would imagine that obviously a key part of your work and your time in the army is that developing of that team, that really that team spirit and that togetherness and that.
commitment to be driven to one goal how has all of that experience helped you in what you're doing today i think it's hugely influential in how i lead the team and how i see us doing i think to be successful in anything it's always about the people you have with you and getting the right people and motivating those people so they're passionate about what they're doing.
But not just that, that they understand not just what they're doing, but why they're doing it and the importance of doing a really good job. And I think that's been a constant throughout whatever job I have done. And it's just as important here working at Salix as it was in the Armory or in Barclays. It's about taking people, motivating them and making sure they have a real passion.
and an understanding about what they're doing and they feel that they can make decisions to the best ability to achieve the objectives that we've set. And OK, so you're the I would say you're at the coalface of delivering one of our biggest schemes. And we do deliver a number of schemes across the spectrum in housing and public sector decarbonisation. But you're certainly at the coalface of delivering the public sector
decarbonisation scheme with government. Huge project, which we're seeing projects being developed and delivered across the country. But for you, what does an average day look like then? I don't think there is an average day, which is one of the beauties of this job. Every day is different. Every day has new excitements and new challenges. They all have a similar theme. But obviously, the public sector decarbonisation scheme is important.
the team also runs the low carbon skills fund the equivalent grants in scotland we have loan schemes in england scotland and wales we have the welsh to garvin scheme and schemes of the scottish funding councils there's 11 different schemes that we run as a team all focused on energy efficiency and net zero so all of that combined means a lot of different kind of challenges a lot of different things we have to do But I think there's kind of three key parts to my day
probably, or my working day, because everything is different. The first one is the kind of strategy and policy engagement. I'm a member of the executive of Salix here, so making sure the company is set up and supporting all of our goals effectively and that we're working together as a wider team to deliver all of the schemes, not just the ones in the public sector that we're responsible for.
But that's also as much engaging with the Department for Energy Security and Net Zero, the Scottish government and the Welsh government, having policy discussions with them about what they want to do. They're the ones who provide us with the money that we spend and the objectives that we have to achieve. supporting them in developing that policy so we can maximise all the funding that we get to achieve the best possible outcomes
is really important. And we spend a lot of time doing that and making sure that the policy objectives are correct and then the schemes that we design and deliver are the best possible way of meeting those policy objectives. I think the second key role is assurance. I am responsible for making sure all of that vast amount of public money
is spent correctly. So ensuring that all of our controls and our processes are in place, that our system works to support that and that the people who are delivering that understand that and are doing that effectively. And then we report regularly to all of our funders and all of our schemes and to the Salix board. on how we are delivering and assuring them that the money they've given us to hand out to the public sector has
been spent in the right way. And then I think the third piece is really, it's all very well talking about these schemes in the abstract, but in reality, every single project that we support, and there are thousands, is different.
Everything from a 30 to 40 million revamp of a hospital's heating system a few hundred thousand pounds changing an old gas boiler for an air source heat pump in a school these are all real people in real buildings with children with patients with hospital staff with public with whoever works and lives and uses those buildings and they have all sorts of challenges and issues whether it's the school having to work around classrooms that are needed by pupils and after
school clubs and work can only be done at certain times or hospitals having to manage infection control when they're working in hospital wards or shutting down operating theatres so they can do essential replacements all of these are going to real world problems and you know as simple as simple as we can make the scheme nothing ever quite fits individuals projects so a lot of my time a lot of my leadership team time is sent just kind of working around the margins the gray
areas of things that don't quite fit the nice neat rules that we write down on paper and trying to make sure that we use that money effectively and kind of help those projects with these complex issues and their own schemes to manage and their own projects to deliver do so in a way that remains compliant within the intent of what we're trying to do Thank you. And thank you for explaining, you know, the broad nature of the work at Salix, because you're absolutely right. There are such
a variety of schemes there for Wales. We've got the recycling, we've got the de Garben, we've got Scotland and across, obviously, all the housing schemes as well. It's a huge amount of work. But just focusing, though, on your last point, you've talked about strategy, working with the department and the importance of assurance. But
you're talking about the reality. So you're right, we're working with schools, universities, colleges, hospitals, whole leisure centres, one, a massive amount of work going in terms of installing heat pumps, energy -saving measures, solar, PV, etc. That reality, how much do you see of that reality? Now, I've been on a few site visits with you. What do you take away from those kind of visits? Several things. First of all, I think I touched
on it previously, the complexity. We see a fairly simplified view when we see the project application. It all looks like all project plans do. It looks very clean and neat on paper. And then I think you get a better grasp of the reality of some of the challenges that our clients have to grapple with. And why it's so important that we understand that and are flexible enough to be able to support them as far as possible within the overall scheme
rules. But the second thing I take away is just how engaged and passionate so many people are about this, about doing the right thing, about even though it's probably not the most straightforward thing to do, it's the right thing to do and doing it well and doing it. And they're passionate about doing it for their buildings, for their sites. but also for the carbon savings they can do through these projects and the energy efficiency and the overall cost savings they can deliver.
And then the third thing I always take away is the ambition. There's a lot of people out there who just think we can do this, and we just need to get on with it, and there's plenty of technologies that are there, the skills are there, the people are there. We just need to get on and do it. I think that's the optimism. We can make a difference, I take away as well. So, absolutely, you've got that ambition, and you've mentioned carbon emissions and cost savings as well, because that matters,
doesn't it? It matters going into a building and making those energy efficiency savings, but also any cost savings are important. But there are rather a lot of targets, aren't there, Ian? You know, we've got 2050 targets, we've got 2040 targets. A lot of councils have got 2030 targets. And every day we're working to very tight deadlines within our work. I know the delivery teams are working to very tight targets to deliver the projects on time to get that money out the door.
Are there too many targets and are they realistic? A target is only ever as good as the plan to achieve it and resourcing that effectively. So a target that's just there for the sake of having a target or to say that we've got a target, and it helps, almost like greenwashing. I think some targets are greenwashing. We set a target, therefore we're good. But actually, and I think you see this, the schemes and the projects that we often see are the most successful. It's not just a
target. It's a strategic objective of the public sector body, whether it's a hospital or a university or a local authority. They know what they need to achieve. And it's really important. And their boards, their executives, all of their staff are bought into trying to hit that because it's a core objective of the public sector body. So I think those are valid targets. Other short
-term targets are important. I know there's a lot of pressure that we have because of the way that funding is channeled to public sector bodies, particularly in the grant schemes where you have to spend a certain amount within each financial year. And I get that is really challenging. But part of me also recognises that doing that has forced a tempo. It has forced people to take action, to make decisions, to get on with it.
Whereas if there'd been a slightly looser or more ambivalent timeline, it wouldn't have happened. So I think sometimes targets are really important. They're kind of holding our feet to the fire, saying we've got to do this, and we have. 2050 wasn't magic up out of thin air. There's scientific evidence that says if we don't get on and start reducing our carbon emissions, we are fundamentally going to change the planet we live on, and it
won't be pleasant. We absolutely have to look at some of those targets and work out how we're going to achieve them rather than complaining about the target themselves. The targets are there for a reason. I think they're important. Our job is to make sure we resource hitting those targets and make them core to our business, whatever we do. And do you think we can go fast enough then to meet those targets? I think the opportunity
is there, whether there is enough will. across both politically and in the public to make the changes that we need. I think it's obvious that the technologies exist to do what we need to do. The know -how exists to do what we need to do. For most things, there are some things I appreciate are still quite difficult and possibly a stretch, but they're on the margins. They're not the big bulk of emitters. We just need to
get on and do it. But I think it's not just, and I talk about the political, it's not just the politicians. I think certainly government has a fair amount of ambition in what it's trying to achieve. But all of us are going to have to look really hard at our lifestyle and how we live and the things that we choose to do, because we all make choices every day. And a lot of them involve emissions, that city break that we go on, that overseas holiday in a villa by a pool
somewhere. that cruise whatever it is or just what we eat you know where we shop there's a whole host of choices we're gonna have to think really carefully i think as a as a nation as a world as a kind of a collective on what we choose to do because every choice we make now has an impact and if we're not careful and we don't start really thinking about what the impact of those choices are long term I think we might
walk our way into a bit of a disaster. So it's not just about the big ticket items and political will from government. Everyone has to be thinking about this now and start working out what they can do to help. And we do see that every day, don't we, through the projects that we're working on, whether it's the capital projects, whether it's schemes like the low carbon skills and the ambition and the heat carbonisation plans. The people that are working on those projects have
home lives. They travel. As you say, we go on holidays. Many people choose to eat meat, dairy, etc. It's whether that's enough. It's not just government, is it? As you say, it's business. It's all of us. It's just being nudged to go in the right direction because I think we can generally agree. As you say, science is on our side. We can generally agree this is something we all need to be doing. This is climate change. This is happening. We see it on our news every
day. We've seen it in Valencia recently. We saw it in Wales not so long ago with flooding. Clearly, it's there. It's happening. It's whether people are really prepared to make that change and not
just a little bit of recycling. on the side exactly that and people i think but it's also an education piece i think a lot of people don't understand the consequences of a decision or don't have an option and that's the other thing i think we're seeing more and more but there are sometimes it's not straightforward to make those choices some people don't have a choice but to drive to work every day you know if they want to work if they want to keep that job they're going to
have to do this how do we help people make those choices and make it easy to make the right choice because at times at the moment it's very hard to make the right choice you can probably only do it if you're wealthy enough you know to have that choice and i think that's the the challenge of our generations how do we make that choice a possibility for everyone not just those who can afford to make it is something you see when you go on your site visits uh not just You know,
looking at those heat pumps and counting those carbon emissions, because obviously they have to report on their carbon and carbon savings, et cetera, eventually. Do you also see the impact that that environment has on the people who use it? You know, whether it's those patients, whether it's the schoolchildren, whether it's the leisure centre users, the people who use the warmer swimming pool. I mean, does that, is that having an effect?
Is that going to be enough of a... coaxing mechanism to encourage people this this building now feels better to use there's certainly other benefits other than the kind of the energy efficiency savings and the carbon savings so we've had feedback from a number of clients from you know our chief executive was on a visit to school the other day and the teachers and kids were telling him it was lovely because enough to wear their coats into the classroom anymore because the room was
properly insulated, the windows didn't have big gaps where the air came in and the heating worked. So that's a real positive. We've seen it also in some of the hospitals we've supported where patient recovery times are reduced because a consistent temperature is possible in some of the wards for those with long -term injuries.
And that's been really positive. I think the other thing we also see when we go on visits is the wider picture because we're obviously in a very narrow channel we're focused on the decarbonization of heat in buildings that's really what we do the most but i was at a hospital in the southwest recently and while we were there in the canteen they were having a a stand run by the estates team and all that week the food they had sourced was zero emissions carbon they're
explaining where they got it from how it was gone and encouraging people to look for those kind of opportunities in their own food purchasing for home. So a lot of these organisations aren't just doing the big stuff, the buildings. They really are looking holistically at their carbon emissions and the challenges and really trying to support their staff and support the people who use those facilities and understanding their options and choices. So what we do makes a difference.
directly in terms of carbon emissions it has an indirect impact on the quality of the life of the people who use those buildings whether they be patients pupils you know staff working in a council office businesses to a leisure centre but it also gives them an opportunity to advertise wider things and that's been quite successful as well thank you now i know you're you you are a lover of the great outdoors and um i think you've told me about your expeditions i think
is it duke of edinburgh that you lead teams into the mountains, into the camping and into the wilderness. You obviously love the outdoors, which, so it'd be lovely to hear just for a moment a little bit about why you do that. But also, you've talked a lot about people changing their habits and their lifestyle. Well, you're a director at Salix. We're working heavily with governments across the UK on net zero and meeting these challenges. So I am going to put you on the spot a little.
What changes have you made to your lifestyle? That's better for the planet. OK, so there's two very different questions there, and I'll answer the second one first, if I may. So in terms of me, we put solar panels and a battery on our house last year, and I'm hoping to install a heat pump on my house next summer so that we can reduce our carbon emissions as a family as
much as possible. uh and i recognize i'm fortunate that i have the money to be able to do that because not everyone has uh i catch the train and cycle to work i don't use the car i use public transport all the time wherever possible we've reduced the amount of red meat that we eat as a family we can't eliminate it because i think my oldest son would i have a fit if that happened because he's a big fan of his lamb chops and steak but we do that we try to shop locally and we look
for goods that have been bought locally where we can um so we could do more absolutely we could do more um but as you say everyone's got to try doing their own little things first and that's what we're trying to do um in terms of your first question uh i do love the great outdoors i've always have done always was one of the reasons i joined the army because it was much better than spending life behind the desk every day I still be of that, even though I now spend life
behind the desk every day, I'd much rather be out and about. And so when I left the army or just before I left, I actually run an explorer scout unit, which is a 14 to 18 year olds. And yes, I do love taking them out in some of the wilder places in the UK and sharing my love of hill walking and the great outdoors of them and trying to encourage the next generation of outdoor enthusiasts and show them what possibility you can get. up in the hills, in the mountains or
something like that. Thank you. Now, this discussion could easily lead us to a picture of gloom, especially when we talk about climate change. And I think I know the answer to the next question. But are you an optimist or a pessimist, Ian? Always an optimist, Hannah. Got to be an optimist. I meet too many positive people, too many really bright, enthusiastic people who are doing their utmost to make a difference. The ambition is there. The technology is there. The willpower is there.
I think everything is there. All the jigsaw pieces are around us. We just need to put it together and get on with it. So, yes, definitely an optimist. Perfect. Thank you very much. And thank you very much to Ian Roger for your time today on our decarbonisation dialogue. There can be no doubt that climate change is the biggest challenge of our time. Today, we must reduce greenhouse
gas emissions to slow global warming. Today, we must act for tomorrow, adjusting our lifestyles to current and future impacts of climate change. Today, we must use our collective wisdom to deliver on our climate commitments. And today, we work for tomorrow's future. Don't forget to subscribe. to our podcast channels. And please do email with your suggestions and ideas to podcast at salixfinance .co .uk. Thank you. Thank you very much, Ian. Thank you very much for having me,
Hannah. You've been listening to the Decarbonisation Dialogue, a podcast from Salix. For more information about our work and to find more content, please visit salixfinance .co .uk forward slash podcasts.