This is the Decarbonisation Dialogue, a podcast from Salix. Welcome to the Decarbonisation Dialogue, delivering on climate change, our collective challenge. I'm Hannah Walker and I believe that the best way to communicate a message is by being passionate about what you are talking about. Through that passion, I believe you can take people with you and create action using your influence to make change and make a difference. Our task today is to get all of us to net zero.
With me today, I've got Gareth Ellis, who's Energy and Environment Manager at Cranfield University. So thank you very much to Gareth for joining us. A huge amount of experience in sustainability and operations at the university. You oversee the management of carbon, energy and environment across the university estate. You've also been, I believe, a school governor, a football coach. And you live, I believe, in mid -Bedfordshire and you're passionate about improving your local
area. You've worked hard on improving road safety in the local parish and you've secured funding for solar panels on the roof of a local school and a cycle link as well between villages. Cannot wait to hear all about that. So thank you very much to Gareth for your time today. Let's start, Gareth, by talking a little bit about your career and how you combine that and your work at Cranfield, which is extensive, with all of that community
work too. Thank you. I started out originally as an agricultural engineer working in the agricultural industry, advising on mechanisation on farms. Because of where I was and because of the kind of farms I was working on, fruit farms, horticultural farms and so on, energy was a big issue. So that's really how I got into the energy side of things, using my engineering kind of background and knowledge.
I suppose the community angle to this maybe came more when I made my first move in my career kind of sideways to working for a charity that was promoting renewable energy. So having developed a kind of expertise on wind turbines and to a lesser extent solar in my kind of agricultural sort of. area of work. I went to work for a national charity, National Energy Foundation, promoting
renewable energy. And that really did focus on working with local communities, working with schools and sort of general awareness raising,
but also working on specific projects. And I think it was at that stage and also with children growing up that I became more involved with, you know, standing on the local parish council actually standing as uh i was elected as a green district councillor for a couple of years before they closed the district council down um and so i got involved in in yeah alongside my work i suppose one bled into the other put it that way And today you're very much involved in the
decarbonisation of the Cranfield University estate. In fact, I know you've been working with my colleagues in Salix on various schemes, including, I believe, the public sector decarbonisation scheme. Generally, on the climate front, we're looking at massive challenges as we face climate change. We're looking at inequality, pandemics, resource pressures and indeed the very threat to humanity. Your view, are we doing enough now on the climate change agenda or have people given up? Oh, I
don't think people have given up. And I think we could always do a lot more. The situation is much more positive now than it was. When I first got involved with the community energy side of things, maybe 20 years ago, I think then it was much more a kind of small scale kind of approach. But now there's a lot more interest from the general public. There's a lot more support from government. And this is all comes back, obviously, to the recognition that climate change
isn't going away, that it is a clearer. and fast approaching threat. So I think things are a lot more positive now, but I think we could be doing a lot more. It's surprising what you can do if you're given the resources. And I think the public sector decarbonisation scheme for Cranford University was a bit of a game changer for us. We had done a lot of work, you know, between 2010 and 2020. We did a surprising amount of work using loans and kind of internal revolving funds. to make
lots of energy savings. But the grant scheme, the public sector decarbonisation grant scheme, really enabled us to make the kind of shift that we need to make to get onto that decarbonisation path. And by shift, what I mean by that is basically all our heating here was very largely using gas boilers. And now through the public decarbonisation scheme, we've managed to get rid of the vast majority of those. And we're on a path to electrifying
our heating systems. And we've got a strategy on how we will make sure that that electricity that's going to drive our heating systems is both affordable and also zero carbon. And indeed, at Cranfield, you are committed to those net zero carbon, reducing those net zero carbon emissions. I think you've got a 2030 deadline in reducing emissions by thousands of tonnes a year following that investment that you've spoken about in energy
saving measures. So the university has invested significantly and in renewable energy, as you say, since 2010 at least. But what does that... actually mean for the site? And what does it mean for the students, the community around you, and what does it mean for the future of the university?
Well, it has impacts in all sorts of ways. Of course, Cranfield University is a very technology -orientated university, so a number of students who come here are either studying the environment or they're studying engineering or energy as part of their postgraduate studies. So there's a huge overlap sometimes with what they're studying. or even researching, and what we're trying to
do. I could cite quite a number of examples where we've done work with our postgraduate students, either doing PhDs or MSc theses, where they've been working on projects which actually harness some of the work that we've done, but also give us feedback and give us an input and an insight into what we might want to be thinking about doing next. It has other benefits. In terms of
the local community, I'm not sure. certainly we we have to make sure that we are working with the local community and they're aware of what we're doing because the first solar farm we put in was right next to the village we've got a large village cranfield village the other side of our airfield and that's where we cited the solar farm so we we had to work closely with the paris council to make sure they were comfortable with the way we were putting that solar farm
in for example And in terms of that community, how engaged? You've obviously had to look at whether it's planning, whether letting people have an idea of timescales, what they can expect. There's all of a sudden this building work. There may be diggers, all kinds of construction workers. So you're obviously communicating with that local community. But how do you communicate that message? Because presumably you're not just saying, we've
got workmen here on this date. You're explaining to people why you're doing this, why it's important, why it's better for the environment? Oh, yes. I mean, that is obviously the right approach. And it is, in a sense, what the university does anyway. We obviously work closely with the local community in other areas as well. Well, we've got a working airfield, so the community is always very sensitive to what we might be doing on that
airfield. And we're sensitive to make sure that we don't cause them... any any discomforts um or any impacts um from our operations in general terms but when we talked to them about the solar farm they were quite impressed i think that we were actually putting that kind of thing in at that kind of scale so you've been You've talked about, we've talked about targets and you've been doing a huge amount of work there at Cranfield. And indeed, there are a lot of targets around
climate change. You know, I think scientists pretty much agreed where we're going. As you say, climate change is not going away. But there are a lot of targets, you know, whether it's 2030 target, 2050 target, 2045 target. Is that enough? And do the targets go far enough, do you think? Or perhaps they're not achievable at our current rates of progress. The UK target is net zero by 2050. The university has set a
target of net zero by 2030. And I can see how we can get to net zero for our scope one and two emissions, so our direct emissions. So the fossil fuel that we burn to heat the buildings, the electricity that we import to light the buildings and provide power. I can see how we can get to net zero by 2030 for our direct emissions. What's more difficult is what we do about what are called scope three or our indirect emissions. And I
think that's probably is too much. We can do a lot, reduce our scope three emissions by influencing our suppliers, by influencing our staff and students in the way that perhaps they commute to the campus or they do their business. So there's a lot we can do with COP3 emissions, but I think COP3 emissions won't truly go away until the whole country is net zero, if you like. That is interesting.
And thank you for explaining that because we have to, I never assume knowledge and we have to kind of make it as simple as possible also for our listeners. So, but you're on target for scope one and two, you think you're very positive because you can control that. And presumably you've got a timescale and you're obviously always hoping for more funding and a kind of smooth scale of funding as well. But it's those scope three emissions that you are going to struggle
with. Those are the ones that you... can't directly impact i don't think we'll be the only ones saying that and i think the only way that you can address it is by using this term net and talking about offsets but then it becomes a bit difficult because carbon offsetting has got a bad name in the press in the media and you you have to be very careful i think about how you address offsetting and i would say that we're we're still investigating that and we've not arrived at what the solution
might be to truly talk in terms of net zero by 2030 so i suppose what i'm saying is we're pretty much i can see how we can get to zero carbon never mind net zero carbon by 2030 for our direct emissions what's much more difficult is how do we get to net zero for the scope three emissions by 2030 and and as you say that is Everybody else, we've all got to be doing it all at the same time. So, and that would take me back to
your students. So, it's a real hub of creativity and innovation and, I mean, Cranfield, fantastic technology and all of that. And you've spoken about the research that students are doing. But what other kind of green initiatives, if you like, are happening at the university? And how do you think generally we can engage those young
people in this climate? crisis conversation and we'll call it a climate crisis shall we it's on our news every day um but how are you bringing people into that almost the raison d 'etre for cranfield being here is the the aeronautical work that goes on it isn't the only uh technological subject that is that is taught here but it is fundamental it's uh you know cranfield grew up as a college of aeronautical engineering after the uh second world war and in developed into
a broader technological college and university and also has a business school but aeronautical engineering is still fundamental to what Cranfield does and of course that is very much focused on the future of aeronautics and aerospace and how is that going to become sustainable so there are a lot of students coming here because they want to obviously keep abreast of the latest developments and the latest teaching in the subject area. But that subject area is very much focused
on sustainability. And for example, with aeronautics, looking at things like hydrogen -fueled aircraft, the design of aircraft to make them much more efficient and to make them fit for purpose for, let's say, that 2050 horizon in terms of when we get to truly net zero across the country. Tell me a little bit more about that research that's happening in terms of, as you say, aeronautics. You've got those huge hangars there at Cranfield,
electrification of our flight. We look up in the skies and we're all doing our best down here in terms of trying to reduce our carbon emissions. But we obviously look up in the sky. Above us, we've got the planes flying overhead. So are you able to tell me a little bit about that research going on for the flight travel? We're talking about changing behaviours. We're all flying all over the world all of the time. So what are you
going to do about it, Cranfield? Yeah, I can talk more about changing behaviours because that's more my remit. I'm not an academic, so I don't get directly involved in the research, only perhaps
to help facilitate it. and as i say provide data to students where i've got the data but we you know for for example we have recently put into place a policy on cranfield's business travel um and so that sort of sets the parameters for what we expect from staff in terms of whether they should be using the train or using the plane um and very much the the guidance is that uh if it's I think within seven hours journey time, they should be very much thinking about using
the train. So pretty much any travel in the UK in the past, they might have thought of flying up to Edinburgh. But now we would be asking serious questions if they were not taking the train to Edinburgh. So in terms of behaviour change, we've talked about this, but now we're actually putting policies in place, which is actually pushing the staff in particular to follow. a change in their behaviour, if you like, to meet what is the requirement in terms of sustainability going
forwards. As far as students are concerned, we're still much more on the carrot end of it rather than the stick in terms of making sure we provide them in terms of their commute onto the campus, you know, affordable bus travel, cycle lanes so that you can actually get here safely. And we try and promote those and try and encourage them to make sure they are using sustainable transport modes. In terms of the research, as I say, a lot of it is now looking at the technologies
of the future. So hydrogen is a good example in terms of both how hydrogen can be used in aircraft, but also how do you actually create green hydrogen in an affordable manner? How are you going to do that? Because at the moment, green hydrogen is very expensive and very scarce. In terms of your capital works, you've gone very fast. You've really put your foot down, haven't you, at Cranfield over the last few years, when you've just mentioned your solar panel, your
solar PV, you've got the heat pumps. What next in terms of your strategy? What's your vision there? Well, one of the first measures we put in back in 2010 was a combined heat and power unit. And at the time, that significantly reduced our carbon footprint. It provided us with over half our electricity and about a quarter of our heating requirement. That was extremely efficient, and it was much cleaner than importing the electricity from the grid. But it was gas -fired, so it wasn't
truly zero carbon. It was just low carbon at the time, relatively speaking. Now that the grid has become cleaner because of the coal power stations that were there in 2010 are now no longer,
and now we've got wind farms. predominating on the grid the grid although not zero carbon yet is much cleaner than our combined heat and power unit so fortunately it's already becoming end of life so we will cease to use it in the next year or so but we need to replace it we need to replace it with a source of clean electricity the grid isn't there yet our solar farms are not big enough our solar farms give us about 15 percent of our electricity so we need something
much bigger to fill the gap And we are currently negotiating with a developer who's putting in a much larger solar farm about two miles away from us. And the idea is that through a private wire connection, they can provide us with as much power as we want, certainly daytime. And there is the possibility that we might also have access to some landfill gas generation, that they can pretty much supply us as much as we want when we want it. And that's for the future.
That's over the next what? What kind of timescale are you looking at? This hasn't been built yet. This is all being developed as we speak. We're in negotiations to see whether we can pull this off and whether it's a it should be a win win situation because they can probably sell it to us for more than they would get selling it to the grid. And likewise, we can hopefully buy it from them at less than we pay for it from grid because it's a direct connection. But that's
the theory. We're working through the negotiations of the practicalities of how we actually do it right now. So speaking of practicalities, is it very much about a balance between working with government, working with private enterprise, trying to bring that all together? And how challenging is that? It is both of those. And I would add the third dimension, which is where we started the conversation, which is the community. I've recently taken on the role of being a director
of a local community energy group. I think the government has talked about supporting community energy. And I think there's a real opportunity to actually put the three together. So there's the kind of private initiatives, which I've just mentioned in terms of the solar farm. There's the government initiatives in terms of the kind of grant support that we've had through the public
sector decarbonisation scheme. But I think there's also the local community who both in terms of potentially becoming part of a... local solution in other words taking some of the demand from the output of these new projects but also possibly investing in these new projects as well. So the whole idea of community energy is that people have the opportunity to invest in renewable energy projects and get a return from them. And you're seeing a huge amount of interest there from the
community in that kind of project? This is all pretty new this has all happened in the last 12 months but And it has been kickstarted with some government funding. But yes, there's a tremendous interest from the community in potential projects. And the local authority is behind it as well.
So I think, you know, I'm hopeful that we'll see a little bit more direction from the government and that this will open this up as quite a big factor in the way that renewables are deployed, certainly in this part of the country where you need to get the community on side. solar farms, lots of wind turbines without the community having some ownership of it, whether it's fiscal ownership or ownership in other ways. And do you think
you need to be an expert in this area? You're talking about a community initiative and you're obviously very much behind that. You say it's taken 12 months. You're the person who can go along and talk to people about this, presumably. But do you think you need to be an expert or can anybody? get involved in something like this. I mean, we're all interested in cutting our bills for a start, but we might not know enough about carbon emissions. We might not know enough about
how we're tracking that. Yeah, no, absolutely. The local community energy group, the majority of the work we're doing at the moment is on the energy efficiency side of things, helping people understand how they use their energy, what their bills mean in practice, what they can do to reduce their costs, and what are the opportunities in their own homes as well. So we've got a team
of volunteers who are doing that. And these are volunteers who don't necessarily haven't had the technical training I've had, but have had some training and have gotten the enthusiasm. And we've kind of got a network now which is sharing knowledge. So, yeah, I would say you don't necessarily need to have the deep technical knowledge. You just have to have the enthusiasm and the willingness to learn. And you'll soon
get to grips with it. And the principles of all this are fairly straightforward once you get an idea of the appropriateness of scale and size of things. And do you think in your experience that enthusiasm is driven by the need to save the planet or the need for future? Or do you
think it's driven by our pockets? I think, no, I think a lot of the enthusiasm is because of recognition of the climate crisis and the need to make sure we pass something on to the next generation that is something they can handle. I think that is the main driver. I think it does help focus the mind. The issues we've been through in the last two or three years in terms of energy cost, that certainly does focus the mind and it does. bring it to more people's attention.
I think there's no doubt about that. But I think the enthusiasm of the people getting involved in coming up with solutions, I think that's largely driven by the climate issue. Thank you. And because you're obviously at the cutting edge there at Cranfield, and you've looked at solution after solution there, positive or negative, do you feel positive about the climate future for the football team that you've coached? And you've just mentioned generations to come. How positive
do you feel? I no longer coach a football team. That was more to do with when my daughter was younger. She still plays football, which is good. And I think for her peers, yeah, all this is incredibly important. My daughter is showing signs of being interested in politics. And I think I hope that she doesn't have to necessarily become somebody interested in green politics. But I hope she recognises, I think, the importance of things being more sustainable for the future.
And yeah. So I think, yeah, I think it's incredibly important for that generation. And Gareth, can I ask what next for you in terms of your work at Cranfield, for you personally? What would you like to see being done next or indeed in your own career? Where would you like to be next? Well, I'm coming to the end of my career at Cranfield in the sense that I've already taken kind of semi -retirement, so I'm not working full time.
I will probably be involved here for... two or three more years, and I would like to see out some of the projects that we're still working on. I've only just recently got involved with the Community Energy Group. I hope that we'll see great things with that. So I think I'll still be very active in looking at how sustainable energy can be applied for the next few years.
I do hope you'll come on the future on another podcast and talk about the progress that Community Energy Group has made, because that sounds pioneering and certainly something that we'll want to know about. And many other people probably want to know about that throughout the country. So that sounds terribly exciting. So thank you very much to Gareth Ellis from Cranfield University. Really appreciate your time today. There can be no doubt that climate change is the biggest challenge
of our time. Today, we must reduce greenhouse gas emissions. slow global warming. Today, we must act for tomorrow, adjusting our lifestyles to current and future impacts of climate change. Today, we must use our collective wisdom to deliver on our climate commitments. Today, we must work for tomorrow's world. Don't forget to subscribe to our podcast channels. And please do email us with your views and ideas at podcast at salixfinance .co .uk. Thank you very much to Gareth. Thank
you. Thank you. You've been listening to the Decarbonisation Dialogue, a podcast from Salix. For more information about our work and to find more content, please visit salixfinance .co .uk forward slash podcasts.