This is the Decarbonisation Dialogue, a podcast from Salix. Welcome to the Decarbonisation Dialogue, delivering on climate change, our collective challenge. I am Hannah Walker and I believe the best way to communicate a message is by being passionate about what you are talking about. Through that passion, I believe you take people with you and create action using your influence to make change and make a difference. Our task
today is to get all of us to net zero. My guest today is a Salix colleague, actually, of mine, and that's Assistant Director Davide Natuzzi, who's going to talk to us about his work at Salix. Davide works in the carbon energy and technical side of our business, delivering schemes across the public sector. Hello, Davide. Hello, Hannah. Thank you very much for your time today. Now, it's wonderful to be able to sit down with a
colleague and discuss this agenda. But can you please tell us, before we start talking about your work today, can you tell us a little bit about your career? Because your background is very much engineering and technical. My background is an environmental engineer. I graduated in Italy and I spent a bit of time there working
as an engineer. in the sustainability sector and my career actually really started from looking to like a waste management and then actually shift to more like energy efficiency project.
It was actually in 2008 when in Italy and also like in Europe there was like you know a big like shift in terms like a regulation for buildings So there was a lot of, like, work to do, a lot of services that, you know, various companies and also a lot of, like, a public sector were starting to be interested, you know, to have,
like, buildings more energy efficient. And then actually, you know, I decided that Italy was maybe too small for me, so I just, like, you know, decided to do a bit more experience outside Italy and spend a bit of time in Australia, and then actually I... came in the UK, where I really started to work for a facility management company and the role and the purpose was the same, always in terms like energy efficiency, energy management, environment, and working for one specific university,
the University of London. And it was actually a great experience, you know, because I was on site and see the project, you know, happening and, you know, the energy saving and the carbon saving to be, you know, to be really like, you know, in the real world rather than like, you know, on a paper or on design. And then actually CELIC, you know, come as an opportunity and it was great, you know, to, because... The public sector, the carbonisation scheme, was really
like a, since like a phase one. For me, it's been a great experience. So at Salix, your job, if we can explain it to our listeners who might not know, I mean, you've moved from waste management to energy efficiency, but at Salix, it's your job to support the technical teams with due diligence. for grant and loan applications, as well as assisting governments in developing new policies and decarbonisation schemes. So that seems pretty vast. You're talking
about policy. We're talking about due diligence. How do you kind of weigh that up? What's the balance in the role that you're doing? How much of your time is spent working alongside departments on policy, for example? I mean, actually, there is, I would say, a big chunk of time that we spent with the department to really do a bit of analysis and also to give a bit of feedback to them in terms of their analysis because the policy is pretty much with the department in
terms of the design of the policy. And the work that we do with them is just to help them to validate what is actually they have come up as a kind of changing criteria based on the previous experience, based on the data that we provide them. So there is a lot of interaction for the policy. And we look into the technical bit. We look at what actually can be done in terms of
to achieve more carbon with less money. and sometimes it's just like a guess in terms like you know we use like the data for do some modeling But still, actually, you know, we don't really, it's difficult to predict, you know, what is actually would be the change in behaviour of the client. So it's always like a kind of like a cycle in each of the, you know, PSTS especially phases. Thank you. Because the public sector decarbonisation scheme is a major part of the work that you do
here at Salix. And you've been here now, what, three, four years? Four years. Four years. And you've been working very closely with the department on the evolution of that scheme. One thing that's not changing. it seems, is the urgency to address climate action, climate change. How do you think that policy, that scheme has evolved over the
last few years? I mean, actually, the big actual change that I've seen across all phases of PSDS was to really have a more... a bit like a more information and data during the assessment in order to really make sure that the project that has actually funded or actually you know sound since the beginning although even actually even though there is always like some exemption but i've seen actually the big shift was more like you know to to the greater like a level of data
and you know understanding at the really early stage of of the process and then actually the shift was also like from like you know a scheme like in phase one where there was not really like a priority in terms of like you know the project to more something like towards like you know the the really like the the the transformation you know the decarbonization so the focus on
gas boiler removals end of life. So this was actually perhaps the big change between phase one and phase two and then actually all the others. And then actually the other one, of course, in phase four is the competitive model. Because the first come, first serve kind of like approach doesn't really allow to try to drive down the
cost. of, you know, of decarbonisation. So with the phase four, like with like a semi -competitive model, the department, you know, is trying to, you know, to really, you know, to really to achieve more carbon with like, you know, less money. So to create like competition and try to, you know, to reduce like, you know, to push the market, you know, to find like a solution to, you know, to reduce the cost of low carbon solutions. So that has been quite a change over the last few
years in that scheme. And sustainability, can we talk about that for a moment? Because it's such a big word, isn't it, when people talk about sustainability? I'm not sure if everybody or all of us completely understand what it is, but you're a sustainability expert. And perhaps you could explain to us what that means and what do you mean by sustainability? Some people might just say it's just environmentalism and brush
this aside. an explanation, if we can, of what you mean by sustainability and how is that helping you drive your goals here at Salix and perhaps also in your own career and your own life? Thank you. I mean, actually, for me, in terms of like a definition, sustainability means like, you know, to actually progress in a way that is actually
sustainable. um this means like a different you know different like um approach like to to progressions and to yeah to progressions like you know you need to be really mindful about like um to grow the economy of course but also like uh with some focus around like you know what is actually this means for the environment, for example. What does it mean in our everyday lives, though, when you're talking about growing the economy? We all talk about we want to be more sustainable,
sustainable. What does that mean for me? It's like the action that we do. We need to always think it's actually sustainable for the environment, but not only, but also for the economy. An example could be I don't know, like a shift from electric car, you know, from like, you know, fuel car to electric cars, which is something that, you know, it's going to be more sustainable potentially, you know, to use electric cars. But this change can really, cannot happen in one day or in one
year. You need to have, you know, allow the system to really, you know, embrace like the change because there will be an implication about people, economy, jobs. So all this kind of decarbonisation actions must be sustainable for every angle of our world. And this means that people still need to have a job. The environment needs to be actually protected. So this is actually perhaps the meaning of sustainability. Thank you, because it seems it is a good thing to do, but is there a danger
that it's become a bit of a buzzword? Everybody wants to be sustainable. We say that this is sustainable. We're doing this in a sustainable way. Is there a danger that it's overused? Yeah, potentially, potentially there is this danger. But it is always in the back of the mind of the people to try to do small actions every day in a sustainable way. So an example in everyday
life is actually your waste. For example, in my family, I tend to recycle everything, like 100%, which I believe is actually a sustainable kind of action to do. Yeah, I agree with you. Perhaps, you know, this must be remind in people's mind, you know, in terms of like a definition. I mean, this leads me on to my next question, because you've got this background in waste management.
And it seems very pertinent that you're now working on energy efficiency measures and scrutinizing those measures across the public sector, because we've got these incredibly ambitious goals that we need to reach. We all know, I mean, I think it's a general agreement or 97 % of scientists know that we've got global warming and the temperatures have heated up over the last 30 years. That is a fact. But we're continuing. Here we are, 2025, and we're continuing to fill up landfills. Our
air is carbon saturated. But so how do you balance up the desire to be sustainable and the economics? That's a big question. It's a really difficult question. Essentially, what I've been saying, to be sustainable doesn't mean that you need to switch off your light at home and just live in the dark. You need to find a solution. you know, find technical solutions sometimes to improve what, you know, what we got. So LED, for example, was like, you know, like a good actually kind
of like, you know, innovation. So LED consume much less than like a normal, like a light. So this means like we can keep like the light on, but we can use much less. So it's looking for those innovative... solutions. And while we're talking about technology, we look a lot, we talk a lot at Salix, certainly, about heat pumps, ground source heat pumps, air source heat pumps. We're talking about building management control systems, being more efficient in the way that
temperatures are controlled. And I know that you're a real expert in those areas. But what else could we also touched on geothermal? I think we also talk about geothermal. But in terms of innovation and technology, presumably we can't go fast enough in this arena. Yeah, I mean, yes. I mean, for the target, you know, we got in terms of like policies. Yeah, exactly. You know, to innovate takes time. And also, you know, a period of time that you also need to test in the new
innovation. I mean, perhaps, you know, we can use, like, examples of where, you know, the innovation was actually, you know, really taken board and really, you know, applied in a very quick way, but still actually will need, like, some time before, you know, we'll be able to, you know,
to apply. Perhaps, you know, if every stakeholder in the grant scheme are actually involved and, you know, are actually really interested, you know, to make this process, faster and an example could be like you know the department or uh yeah that's nuts for example around innovation they can really try to put in place like some kind of mechanism where actually new solution also like more funding has been given to like to you know to innovate like in a solution but also
like you know to fast track the implementation of this like a new technology new solution so Potentially this is possible, it just needs a change. It needs change. And I'm incredibly inspired, and I'm not an engineer and I'm not a scientist, but I do go along and look at some of these projects and I meet the people behind them, the really inspiring people across the public sector who are leading big hospital projects or school projects, university projects. And I do see a lot of energy
and a lot of commitment. and excitement around the kind of technology. Do you see that every day in your job? Are you surprised by the solutions people are coming up with? Do you think we're coming up with those solutions fast enough? How does that impact your work, what you see, and
also what you see when you go out on site? Okay, so to be honest, Since phase one, PSTS, PSTS really pushed a lot in terms of innovation because when actually there is a lot of money available for projects and there is a lot of interest in the public sector, but also the private sector in terms of to really use this money also for business, but also to create something that is going to work. So yeah, we have seen a lot in
the first... two or three years of PSDS. And now it's actually, you know, what we have seen actually big actually changes, big actually innovation, big actually new technology. But then actually now, you know, the curve in terms of like, you know, the curve of innovation is flattening a
little bit. What we have seen recently, and I see sometimes this in the project, especially for phase four, which is still actually not in the assessment, so we haven't really seen the details of the project that we received in terms of applications submitted, but what we received in terms of queries before the submission, there was some interesting solution in terms of, not just on... equipment, like a new innovation equipment, but the way how this will be setting within like,
you know, the buildings to try to achieve more carbon with less money. So an example could be like, you know, to introduce more like heat storage within the plant room. So like having this means like having like a smaller heat pumps that can work like with with like other equipment in the plant room. So we see something in terms of like innovation recently. And of course, when we go inside, we can see, you know, the solution that has been actually part of the PSDS awarded project.
Super. So we've talked about some of the design and engineering solutions. And as an engineer, you know that the built environment is responsible for about 40 % of the UK's carbon emissions. So we can reduce... carbon emissions in the build. And we've talked about some of the ways that can be done to achieve that. But as an engineer with a huge amount of experience, what else could you be doing? I know you're very keen on sharing knowledge and you write for various publications.
But what else do you think you should be doing, whether you're doing it at Salix or whether you're doing it as somebody who cares about the future and the way we move forward on this agenda? My personal view is that I got, like, you know, in my, I mean, in terms of, like, a goal, personal goal, professional goal, I tend to, you know, I really actually enjoy, like, you know, the solution that's called, like, passive action solution. This means, like, you know, to really
focus on installation first. Same as, actually, PSTS. but with a big focus in order to really reduce the energy demand of the building. So in that way, the building would be quite sustainable because regardless of the type of heat system you put in the building, this building will always
reduce consume less energy. So this is, for me, it's quite important because, you know, now we actually, we got like, you know, the shift between fossil fuel to electric, but now, you know, we got like the challenge to really make sure there is enough load to, you know, to guarantee energy in the buildings that run like on electricity. But with that kind of solution, you probably will reduce the demand anyway, regardless of the energy. It can be like a different energy
in 20 years. Maybe there will be like a shift into hydrogen, who knows? But the buildings will require less energy anyway, little energy. So to me, that should be actually the direction for the next 20, 40 years, really to try to get as much as possible you know, building, really like, you know, to focus on the passive element. The passive element is the element that doesn't move in the building, so insulation, fabric, rather than the active, which is, you know, the
mechanical part. And are you finding in projects that come to you, by the time they come to you, people are taking that approach? Some of them, some of them, but very little. Perhaps they use the same framework. that has been actually built for the passive kind of solution, but still actually not that much. But it's a lot of focus on system, like on the mechanical part or the electrical part. We have seen a lot of good insulation projects, like windows, fabric, but the focus is still
on the mechanical bit. And there's a big emphasis, I think, in your work on that whole building approach, isn't there, overall? What does that mean? It means like, yeah, exactly. So you don't just assess your building for your heating system. You assess the capabilities of your building to really retain the heat. So you start from the fabric to understand if there is an intervention needed. Sometimes it's actually obvious, like a single glazed windows are really like very
poor in terms of like heat, to retain heat. So the double glazing or the triple glazing is the solution. Add like external wall insulation can help. And then actually after you got like you're building in a good actually shape in terms of like able to maintain the heat. then you can look to the heating system, like the electrical, the mechanical bit. But also the whole building approach means to make sure that there is also
some element of renewable energy. So if you can apply PV panels that can really support the help with the demand of electricity for the building, or like solar thermal. So you've got like a different solution. So to look like the building like as a holistic way and try to get like the best quality buildings that you can have and not just like a focus on one element rather than the other. We're very much focused on what we're doing here at Salix and we're very much focused obviously
on UK carbon emissions. How do you feel when we think we're doing everything we can, but we're also comparing ourselves with China, India, the United States, and looking at their carbon emissions, how positive do you feel about the work here and how it compares to other nations? To be honest,
I'm very positive. And I'm actually glad that I decided to move to the UK because... really like it was probably the place where actually really you can do something about because the policy really like you know support this kind of like you know um goal um so definitely in the uk can be a good example for for the world and i'm hoping that this is going to be the case um i don't know how much you know how much is actually has been done to try to know to To show,
to present, you know, to really like advertise. Shout out about what you're doing. Yes. So it's Salix. You come into work every day. We've got a real flavour of what drives you and your passion and how you feel about the technology, etc. But what, so it's kind of a silly question, really, if I asked you what most despise you about your work at Salix and within the public sector? I
mean, actually, people in Salix are great. So, my team is actually, you know, I'm quite really happy, you know, to support the team in terms of, like, you know, to achieve what the department wants us to achieve in terms of, like, you know, the schemes. My team is actually, you know, is made by young, actually, members that are really keen in terms of, like, you know, to really make this world a better place. So very focused on sustainability, energy, efficiency, all the policies.
So it's very driven in that way. They feel like the purpose in this. And this has actually really helped me myself also to come every day in the office or working from home with them because I can feel it, this kind of sense of purpose. And also the public sector, I mean, actually to do something for, you know, for the society.
It's definitely something that for me, you know, make myself like, you know, happy to wake up in the morning to do something for our society rather than like, you know, just for myself, you know, to have like a purpose is definitely... So you feel like we're certainly on a mission. Yes, we are. We say we're on a mission to save the planet here at Salix. And those public sector buildings, of course, saving on those... carbon emissions and decreasing that carbon footprint.
But of course, a lot of those buildings that you are initially looking at, whether it's through applications and throughout your dialogue with these projects, is a lot of these buildings are being brought to life again, aren't they? They're being given new leases of life, which has been inspired by installing energy efficiency measures.
I mean, so many, whether it's leisure centres that might otherwise possibly have closed, whether it's libraries that are being given new life, those community buildings are indeed becoming a greater use, aren't they, across the country? Yeah. Thanks to these projects. Yeah, exactly,
exactly. I agree, I agree. Definitely, it's not just like about energy or carbon saving, but also like to give back to the community, like good facilities where actually people can... can spend time you know meeting like in a place so definitely this is it's going to help like not just the the carbon emission but also like the social aspect feel we were at a school recently actually and the head teacher said now we've got better controlled temperatures thanks to
these the energy saving measures which were funded by, happened to be funded by the public sector decarbonisation scheme. She said now the children, instead of shuffling around with their coats on, coats off, feeling hot, feeling cold, they can just get on with the job of learning. So it makes it a better environment. That must be one of the reasons why you come into work every day. OK, my final question today, Davide, is we've got six or years less to meet the UN sustainable
goals, development goals. Do you feel positive or negative about that? Something in the middle, maybe. Thank you. Well, thank you very much for your time today, Davide. That's absolutely superb that you've taken time out to speak to us for our podcast series. We appreciate your time and it gives us such a great insight into your work here at Salix as part of our decarbonisation dialogue. There can be no doubt that climate change is the biggest challenge of our time.
Today, we must reduce greenhouse gas emissions to slow global warming. Today, we must act for tomorrow, adjusting our lifestyles to current and future impacts of climate change. Today, we must use our collective wisdom to deliver on our climate commitments. And today, we work for tomorrow's world. Don't forget to subscribe to our podcast series. And please do email your suggestions, views to our podcast email address, which is podcast at salixfinance .co .uk. Thank
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